Stepping into Kingdom Justice with Michelle Ferrigno Warren

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Michelle Farigo Warren to the show.

Michelle is the president of Farigo Strategies, a consulting group which provides strategic engagement and project management support for churches and nonprofits. Stepping more deeply into the work of public justice. She has been working in Christian community development for over 30 years, utilizing her skills as an educator, worship leader, nonprofit manager, public policy specialist, and faith rooted organizer and activist.

She is an adjunct professor at Denver Seminary and a senior fellow with the Dietrich Bonhoeffer Institute. She is a fierce advocate for justice and has shared much of her journey towards civic engagement and activism in her books the Power of Moving Beyond Awareness to Action and Join the Step into the Good Work of Kingdom Justice. A reminder. Before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share

Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonediaproah.com with comments, questions or ideas for future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern the future of the church. >> Loren: All right, welcome to the Future of Christian podcast. I'm, um, here recording live in person at, uh, Open Door Ministries in Denver, Colorado with Michelle Fergno. Warren. Thank you so much

for being here. Thank you for your time and uh, welcome to the show, Loren. >> Speaker D: Thanks for having me. I'm glad to have the conversation. And thanks for coming to Open Door. >> Loren: As I was explaining offline, I always enjoy in person conversations more than like we talked about staring at a screen trying to read, uh, you know, a flat surface so listeners will probably notice.

Michelle, uh, and I are a little scratchy throated, so please forgive us for the, uh, audio quality if our vocal, uh, quality is not as good as we might like. But we're looking forward to having this conversation and um, looking forward to hearing more in the conversation. So let's, let's begin with this, uh, Sheriff Juice Wood. Anything else you want listeners to know about you? >> Speaker D: Well, that is a really broad question, so I thank

you for that. You know, I've been married for 31 years. I share that because it's good work, but it's probably the hardest work. >> Loren: Yes. >> Speaker D: And so my husband and I were college sweethearts. I have three kids. They're all adults. Um, two lawyers and an engineer. So I'm very excited about that. But, you know, mostly. And we'll get into the conversation, but one of the things that I like to share is that I strive to be a good neighbor. And.

And in the Christian faith, that holds a lot of weight. And so, yeah, so I would just say that I'm practicing being a good neighbor and had been trying to do that since my eyes got opened to not just the concept of being a neighbor, but having neighbors who have had different experiences. Lived experiences. And. Yeah, just walking in life with each other along our ways.

>> Loren: Why don't we go into that a little bit? Uh, I usually ask folks to share about the beginning of the faith journey, what that looks like today. I don't know if you're willing to kind of frame it through that lens. You mentioned your eyes being opened. If you can share a little bit more about that. >> Speaker D: Yeah. So I think it's good to start kind of in the sort of the beginning and trajectory, because I think your formation is how you begin to see and

shape the world. And I was born into a Catholic family, so I have Catholic roots. And my parents, um, came to a different expression of their Christian faith when I was in. When I was 5. And that doesn't seem like it should be that big of a transition, but it was, because as they stepped. They didn't step out of Catholicism. They stepped into a different expression. I like to refer to it as a

generous Christian orthodoxy. Um, anyway, so I think they were kind of part of the Jesus movement, and some of that captured them. And they ended up actually going to a church that was fundamentalist. They don't know if they realized all of what they had chosen. And, you know, they put me in private Christian schools because that was what was starting back in. I guess that would have been 1976. >> Loren: Yeah.

>> Speaker D: And so. Yeah, and so that was a lot of. My formation was actually a Christian fundamentalism. And what I didn't catch Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night was reinforced Monday through Friday. And I don't want to criticize that, because I was loved and I was nurtured. And maybe. Maybe there's some things I could say that I wasn't seeing with my potential as A girl. >> Loren: Right. >> Speaker D: But my parents were not a part of that

indoctrination. You know, they had walked out of Catholicism and had felt like a lot of their formation was centered around guilt and shame, and so they weren't going to take anything. But I think for me, being an oldest child, trying to be a good girl, I'm an enneagram one. You know, I think I just adopted all of that Christian culture that even my m parents didn't put on. I kind of thought they were bad

at being born again. Anyway, that brought me to, you know, college, and I chose to go to Cedarville University. >> Loren: Yes. >> Speaker D: Which is a very conservative school. It was not as conservative as the high school I went to. >> Loren: Interesting. >> Speaker D: So this is kind of me stepping. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: And I would say was nothing was a rebellion or a reaction. It was just a broadening of my

experience. It was great to be at Cedarville. You know, being 18 to 22 is awesome. I met in my future husband there. We were college sweethearts and married soon after we graduated, then moved down to Texas for three years. During our time in college, we had both done a lot of community ministry and outreach. I had done tutoring in a, um, girl's home that, you know, people that were not juvenile detention, but kind of like that. My husband David, was doing a lot of street outreach work in

Cincinnati. And without getting into too many of the details, as the two of us were coming together, we knew that we wanted to have a life that would be centered around people who were very poor and that we didn't want to live in a different community, that we would be committed to working, worshiping, and living in the same community. And that really set off a trajectory for that neighboring piece. Because in my mindset, a neighbor was who lived next to me.

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: And because of socioeconomic status, because of education, they all pretty much look like us. Um, maybe not at the moment. You would see distinctives, but compared to where I was ready to begin to plant my roots and raise our family. And we've been in Denver. We were in Dallas for a few years, and then in Denver these almost 30 years, it has changed everything. And that has, you know, faith isn't some abstract that

you kind of check in. It's a part of who you are. Your spirituality is a part of who you are. My faith is rooted in Christ and his words and, you know, his word. And trying to embody my hermeneutic is Jesus. So I'm trying to embody, you know, his love in action. And that is really what has Shaped my faith is just the difference of neighbors and the struggles of life, the struggles of community.

Going back to Jesus and trying to see, okay, really, what does it mean to love my neighbor as, you know, my neighbor as myself. What does it mean to love my enemy? Uh, et cetera, et cetera. >> Loren: Yes. Well, share, if you would, any kind of spiritual practices, spiritual disciplines that are meaningful for you or help you stay grounded. >> Speaker D: I mean, I was brought up to be a good fundamentalist. So, I mean, I'm very. I was very good at doing all of what I

call Sunday school. You know, I was, I was. I think I wrote in my book Join the Resistance that I was taught to love God, love others, and be a very good Pharisee. You know, that, um, was really what I was trained to do. So my spiritual practices have deviated a little bit. I mean, it is definitely centered around, you know, God's word. I just really think there's a lot to learn from the Bible. I also think there's a lot to learn from the saints who

come before us and those who are with us now. So a lot of my practices changed after Covid, and so some of them are going to sound funny, but it's actually a spiritual action. Um, spiritual practice of walking. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: And, you know, St. Augustine has kind of coined the phrase, it is solved by walking or Salvatore on

balando. And so I just really feel like there's something very deeply meaningful and spiritual in that practice of walking and all of the different things that you think about and listen to and pray along the way and see even what you see. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: Another thing is, is I'm always growing something, no matter what it is year round. Because I think especially the work that I do, living and working and worshiping in the communities that are forgotten or that are

vilified on the news. I live in a, an immigrant community and have, you know, for almost three decades. I need to see hope alive. So hope isn't something you're going to see. It's not about the present, it's about the future.

>> Loren: Amen. >> Speaker D: Um, and when you look at a seat and this is the spiritual practice of taking something that looks like trash or dirt, and you put it in that dirt and you embed it and you put it in the right elements and you don't see the underground activity of all that growth and breaking that happens. And then all of a sudden, this new life. I'm kind of addicted to growth and the, and the growth of life. So I honestly am always growing something.

Not maintaining, but growing Something from seed, you know, in all year round. And then,

you know, I spend some time journaling. I don't do as much as I used to because I'm a different person now. Um, but I definitely follow the Christian calendar practices of Lent and Advent. You know, I. I read and pray. But I would say what characterizes the post 50 versus the pre 50, Michelle, is I do everything in my spiritual discipline. Slower.

>> Loren: That's a good lesson right there. I'm thinking as we're recording this, there's sitting to my left, Michelle, your right, an Advent wreath. And we're coming up on Joy Sunday. I believe in Advent. Hope was the first Sunday. Is that right? >> Speaker D: Hope, peace, joy, love, worship. Pastor. You know I'm going to do that, right? >> Loren: Yeah. Well, that's great. We're here to talk a little bit about Michelle and her broad work. Her book Join the Resistance, and

I think evangelicalism writ large. I suppose we'll see where it goes. But I think I, uh, suppose you've already sort of identified this in beginning to talk about your. As you mentioned, your eyes being opened. Is there anything else you want to share about a call or a prompting that really. Certainly, uh, in the Christian tradition, I imagine for me, and I imagine for you also, people talk about a call of God on their lives. Do you want to share anything that resonates there?

>> Speaker D: There's definitely different points that I have had that. And it's not that I wouldn't want to share it. I just don't know if one's more significant than the other. You know, it's just a series of stepping into the next hard thing. >> Loren: Okay. >> Speaker D: And really a surrender. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: To God and his requests.

Am I willing to go? You talked about my book during the resistance before I wrote Join the Resistance, after we had been living out this working, worshiping. Because that is a call in itself. >> Loren: Right. >> Speaker D: I mean, I have three kids. I put them in the worst schools in the worst community. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: When I say worst, I mean by statistics. >> Loren: Right. >> Speaker D: And I trusted that that seed going into that dirt

would result in beauty. And so all of that is a call. It's actually obedience to a call. And so getting a call versus living at your call, you know, they should be connected. And so that's probably been the story of my life. But the first book I wrote, after we'd been doing it for about 24, 24 years before I published my first book, was called the Power of Proximity. And it was because of that seeing, you know, you can't fix problems. You don't understand. >> Loren: Right.

>> Speaker D: And so how are you going to move from an awareness of something? And for me it was an awareness of issues that my neighbors were facing. Some people are hearing about it on the news here in Denver. We had a lot of Venezuelan migrants coming these last two years, more in our city per capita than any other city, including

Chicago and New York for two years. And so you're hearing about the story of immigrants and it may move you from an awareness to I want to do something which is great. I think that is deeply spiritual, important,

human as well. Response. For me, I was living with immigrants in proximity to immigrants and proximity to the poor, in proximity to working class and proximity to the homeless and all the different people groups, I guess you could say, even though we were just one big community, right at Open Door Fellowship and in my neighborhood it was powerful because it moved me from an awareness of injustice to a, ah, question of what was I going to do with what I knew and how was I going to move and

be authentic in solidarity? Because I do community development and I mean I do activism and advocacy too. But it's with this community development and organizing model that you never do anything to a community or for a community. You would do it with it. So they can do it by themselves. And so that is really the learning is nobody was waiting for me to show up, but when I did, how would I humble myself and walk in solidarity and do whatever we needed to do

to do well? And so the power of Proximity really is the story of call and conviction and also just an invitation to all of us. If we can't fix problems we don't understand, then how are we going to understand them? Um, that's why Proximity is key. And then Join the Resistance is another series which we can talk about at some point. >> Loren: So let's talk a little bit about this aspect of community development because I'm thinking about in recent years I've begun to

study social entrepreneurship. I'm thinking of um, asset based community development. Where is there interlapation for those unfamiliar? Someone me. Right. Give a little background, details of what that looks like. >> Speaker D: Yeah, I can do that. Although this is really painful because I teach at a seminary and I teach social concerns and community development. So I have way too much, way too much information to um, answer that question. So let me try to

think. I'll re emphasize one thing that I shared. Uh, because community development and assets based community development is an acknowledgement of that a community has resources within itself to get it what it needs. Uh, sometime it just has not been invested in, or it has been stripped of its resources and things that are taken, uh, so that it can't. >> Loren: Right.

>> Speaker D: And there's a lot of metaphors and a lot of workshops that I actually teach churches and nonprofits, and if anybody's interested, you know, they contact you to really kind of explain that in depth. But I'll reemphasize. When you look at communities, whether it's from the inside or the outside,

everybody has potential. It's deeply theological in imago dei, in the call to subdue, you know, even in the levitical commands to help protect vulnerable so that everybody can live to their most productive place. And that's the Hebrew word mishpat, or the word for justice, to restore people and whole societies to their most productive place. So when we're talking about doing community development, especially as a Christian, how can I be a part of restoring

people and places to their most productivity? So we need to be honest about what's going on, right? And then we need to be honest and creative and imaginative to believe that we have what we need. And so that if you're on the outside, like me coming in, I. It's very arrogant posture to say, I know what's best, so I'm going to do this to you. It's even pretty arrogant to say, I'm going to do it for you. So I always say there's four. There's four, um, prepositions for

community development. You never want to do two or four, Right. But you do want to do it with. And that's the solidarity. Because communities do need accompaniment. Individuals need accompaniment. Here at Open Door, we do a lot of individual accompaniment out of homelessness, out of addictions. I mean, there's so much that communities, because of things that have happened. It's not always an individual decision, but individuals still make decisions. >> Loren: Right?

>> Speaker D: And so as you walk with people and you walk with whole congregations or you walk with whole communities, we're doing it together so that eventually individuals and communities can do things by itself. Think of community development as tutoring. You never want to hire a tutor for long because they're expensive. It takes extra time. You want to tutor for a while. You can't take the test for the student.

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: You don't want to belittle and shame and make them freeze. But if you have something to offer, how do you accompany people and places so that we can all flourish? Community development is based on community organizing. Community organizing builds social networks. It is a leadership from behind. It doesn't mean there's no leadership. It requires some. But the community is driving everything. The community is dreaming. The community is planning. And we

assemble. Leadership within and when we need it, collaborate without. Because maybe we need extra social networks. Definitely economic. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: So that we can imagine if we had all this, what can we do together? Holding ourselves accountable. So that's kind of the essence of community development. I did that for a very long time. I still believe in it. But after doing the work, I began to realize. Well, I guess let me just say I kept asking questions.

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: Much like the Brazilian priest who is pretty famous for saying, I can't remember his name. >> Loren: Gutierrez. >> Speaker D: I don't remember his name. I'm so sorry, sir, but that's okay. When I gave the poor. >> Loren: Yes, Gustavo Gibbs. >> Speaker D: Yeah, I was gonna say I couldn't remember. Yeah. When I gave the poor something to eat, they called me a saint. When I asked why the poor

were hungry, they called me a communist. So I've been labeled a Marxist, a communist social. I mean, like, that's what happens. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: Because I asked questions and I wanted to be a part of that solution. And that moves from community development into the confrontation of injustice. I'll give another metaphor. You don't want to give people a fish. >> Loren: There's. >> Speaker D: You love mercy, so you want to give people fishes. Don't hear

me wrong. But community development says, I don't want to give you a fish perpetually. I want to teach you to a fish. Teach you to fish. A, uh, community organizer or somebody who's been here for a very long time, like myself and others, we know that it's an access issue. >> Loren: Right? Access to the lake to fish. >> Speaker D: Access to the fish. Yeah. It could be the perfects. I mean, there's. There could be. You could come to our lake. You can use whatever rod you want.

You can use whatever tackle you want. But you need to pay this much money to get this. And you can only be here at this hours. Those are the kinds of things that lead to that have led to people being written out of a system. And the system is operating the way it was created to do. And it's until we rise up and resist that system and do it. And I'm not saying just to be difficult, but create disruption, advocate, uh, be those prophets.

Advocacy is the prophetic word and the prophetic work of the church to say that, you know what, if these systems are not just, then we will not stop until everyone has justice. >> Loren: Let's dive into that a little bit more because it leads into a question. I wanted to Ask you around, you identified it. Works of mercy versus works of justice, uh, which is a bifurcation I often hear. And it seems like in some

contexts churches or Christians are far more comfortable with what we might call works of mercy, which, like you said, would be giving people a fish versus works of justice, which we might define, like you said, as opening access to, uh, the lake to make sure folks can get to the lake. What are your thoughts around? And I think, I want to acknowledge that I think there can be some nuance because I think there can be some disagreement around what is the best way to

open up access to the lake. So for that justice, that can be complexity. But what are your thoughts? Because, uh, it feels like to me that churches and Christians tend to be a lot more comfortable with giving out the fish, so to speak, to say with that metaphor versus the latter. What are your thoughts there? What have you seen? >> Speaker D: Oh, my goodness.

All right. Well, first of all, we're commanded to love mercy. Sometimes people in the development space kind of put down the giving of a fish. >> Loren: Right, right. >> Speaker D: And I don't want to do that because we. Mercy is a response to a problem. Justice isn't a response to a. It is trying to figure out why the problem exists and, uh, fixing that. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: I've kind of shared a little bit about the, you know, Hebrew

word for justice. Not going to go into the Hebrew word for mercy. But we know that we're committed to love. That little voice there. We're commanded to love it, which means we should never get tired of it. And so we're going to always need to do that posture. And I'm grateful that churches want to practice some of that loving mercy. I usually call it outreach, compassionate acts. >> Loren: Right. >> Speaker D: Um, doing justice is long.

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: And it is always met with resistance. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: So imagine being a church. And I remember when doing mercy wasn't so great. I mean I do remember Something happened in 1995 or 6. I can talk to you quite a bit about how political reform has either made the church cold or warm

to things. But once the welfare, uh, reform act happened in 1996, you will begin to see churches, especially those with middle income security or higher, all of a sudden loving mercy wasn't so bad. Right. So there's just an interesting sociological political lens we won't get there. But anyway, when you hand somebody, I mean, we're told this to do, give the hungry food, you know, give the, give the naked clothes. We need to do it. It is, it is not easy. We're called

to love It. Because we have to do it so much. However, you have an instant gratification. And when you look at a whole church, you want your people not just to be absorbers of the word, but doers. And so to put them on a trajectory that's going to take an entire lifetime doesn't seem probably as incentivizing. >> Loren: Right, right. >> Speaker D: And I see that with mainline Catholic, evangelical.

>> Loren: Yes. >> Speaker D: Got to give our people the good endorphins that they did something. >> Loren: Yeah. Uh, I mean, I, uh. We both been in leadership ministry leadership. We know. Like, how am I going to get this person engaged? I need to get them a quick, quick hit. >> Speaker D: Here's the thing is, I'll take your money. Like, people like, oh, don't just give me your money. Give me your body. I want your body, too, but if you'll give me that. I want your money.

>> Loren: Uh-huh. >> Speaker D: We need your money. We need those acts of mercy. What I try to challenge people is don't stop there. Ask God how to move you and extend you beyond loving mercy to doing justice. Because when you start to be willing to do justice, that is slow, uphill, grueling work. But I think that's the kingdom work. That is kingdom work. And you just see it so clear. That's why I said my hermeneutic is Jesus. I heard that from Tony Campolo.

>> Loren: Yeah. Who just passed. Right. >> Speaker D: Just passed. Oh, my goodness. He's also the one to challenge me. A week after the Trump election, the first time we were in this big prayer group, Jim Wallace had called a bunch of national leaders, and I think there was like 50, 60 of us in the room, maybe not even that much. It felt like a big room. We all bowed our head in prayer, and I heard a gargly voice, and I knew it was Tony. And he's like, God, help me to find the imago

DEI and Trump. And I was like, why did you have to say that? So it's been my prayer. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: I get to use it a little bit more, Right? Yeah, I get to use it. >> Loren: And maybe today, help me to find the imago DEI in Trump voters. >> Speaker D: Oh, for sure. I mean, here's the thing. When you begin to pray to find the imago DEI and your enemies. I won't say the Trump is my enemy. >> Loren: Yeah, but. Sure.

>> Speaker D: But people who. Who will hurt my community. >> Loren: Right. >> Speaker D: And who are against me. Let me phrase it. That. To find the imago de. And people who are against me. >> Loren: Yeah. And what you're doing, people I love. Yeah. >> Speaker D: It is a challenge. But Then I remind myself of Jesus, my goodness. He said, love enemies, do good to those who persecute you. Like that's so mind boggling. So I have

a lot to learn. But as far as the doing justice, it is a strap in for a hike. It's the sojourning, it's the pilgrimage, it's you get to practice the disciple part of being a Jesus father, which man I gotta love, I gotta do things I don't want to do. Those Beatitudes are impossible. And then it's the sojourning pilgrim. I don't know how convenient or inconvenient this work is going to be. And so that's why I try to encourage people we are to honor God is to do the work

of justice. That's the whole theme of the Old Testament. It's embodied and it's sprinkled all through parables, rules in the kingdom. And so the work of justice, which I think we should probably tell our people that in the Greek the word for righteousness is also the word for justice. And it does a very. I believe, yes it is good job. >> Loren: Took uh, four semesters many years ago.

>> Speaker D: Well, if we were just to start to flip that, uh, if we were being students of God's word and reading the New Testament every time we saw it's not 100% but a majority of the time when we see the word righteousness put in justice, it would transform the way we live it out. >> Loren: Let's stay on this if I may because I'm thinking

about. I like your point about justice. Well we interpret righteousness as right living, perhaps better translated just living and especially in some circles. And we'll bang on evangelicals a little bit here. That right living can be right. What am I trying to say? Adherence to the right kind of beliefs. Living. >> Speaker D: Mhm. So I get to preach and on the evangelical churches that will allow women to preach. So that's a very few and far

between. I preached in my first. The first time I ever preached was in a mainline church. So I thank them and respect and appreciate their recognition of my own gifting and call. They invited me. So I've preached in lots. I've even given stuff to Cat like in a homily. So it's kind of been all over the place. But when evangelicals will allow me to preach, mostly everybody wants me to talk about the intersection of faith and justice. That's what

I'm known for. That's the work, you know, and that's plus I think it's easier to get an outside person to speak about it, because, you know, it's like the prophetic voice, like, well, she was only here for a week. She's only here for a week. You know, forget that she was here kind of thing. Um, but. But all

the. I often, almost always exclusively talk about the connection between righteousness and justice, because in religious circles, so it could be mainline, it could be Catholic, could be evangelical, it could even be non Christian. But more of this, what I do that qualifies me, like my religious practices, my practices, my spiritual piety, that is not righteousness. Righteousness, uh, and justice. Because you see them so intrinsically into the Old

Testament, righteousness and justice kind of are paired. And in the New Testament, same word, even in the Greek. >> Loren: Uh-huh. >> Speaker D: It's because they are not disconnected. You don't do your righteousness and then decide if you want to do justice. Righteousness is not about spiritual practices. You need spiritual practices to be able to live a righteous life. Because righteousness, or the Hebrew word tsedeq, is the right actions towards somebody that become justice

for everyone. You can't do righteousness without justice, because that's what tsedeq, and that's what the concept of the righteousness justice connection is. Righteousness as a Christian is my right actions towards you, and my right actions are so right in such a way that it becomes justice not just for you or me, but it becomes justice for everyone. >> Loren: I, uh, appreciate you sharing that. I want to lean into this big E word.

>> Speaker D: Hey, listen, I have no problem. I'll just let you know, I'm an evangelical. You can ask me why I want. >> Loren: To lean into that. Um, as we talked prior offline, you. You. You mentioned to me that you've chosen to retain that word, even though in some circles, you're seen. If I'm. Hopefully I'm not speaking out of turn as a bad evangelical, I'm pro. >> Speaker D: A really lousy evangelical. >> Loren: Um, conversely,

as you, I think you would admit. Again, I hope I'm not speaking for you. Evangelicals have done their fair share of stuff to kind of deserve a bad rap. What do you want to say about why you've chosen to kind of retain that moniker? Uh, what good can you share about, uh, evangelicalism? Because, I mean, again, here we are in the Denver metro area. I see a lot of really good stuff happening from churches and people who I think would broadly identify well within

evangelicalism as a whole. So I think there's a lot of good happening beyond just the headlines that we see on the national

News. >> Speaker D: So I told you I have Catholic roots and evangelical roots. Of course, I was some fundamentalists. We didn't call ourselves evangelicals because we thought they were going to have roots. Right. >> Loren: They were liberals. >> Speaker D: Yeah. So, yeah, I know we have. The Southern Baptists were liberal. So, I mean, like I said, everybody has their own camp. So I usually tell people I have Catholic and evangelical

roots because that's a very honest telling of who I am. It's an. It's an integration evangelicalism. Um, first of all, I don't want to be some sociologist, uneven Jews. I do remember kind of that awareness, like, okay, this is sort of a negative thing in the political stream, or positive, depending on what camp you were sitting in. Right. Uh, and I also knew it was a powerful leverage tool in politics. Okay, so let me just share this.

For many years, I didn't identify in it as anything. I was a Jesus follower. I was a Christian. It wasn't until I became very public in my stand with immigrants. I actually went to night school to study public policy for housing policy. I'd been a public school teacher and did education policy. I'd worked at Open Door and had a transitional. So social. Social, um, human service. So I'm an education, human service and housing policy person who lives in

an immigrant community. All these things are happening now. My expertise, by far, I know immigration policy better than anything at every single level because of all the years of practice. In 2009, we had things, a lot of things in color. I don't want to go through all the different political things that were happening, but my awareness to the fact that the camp that I had hailed from, evangelicals, were now on the opposite side of the poor. I, um, mean, I could keep listing.

I'm like, well, this doesn't do well. So I had kind of just never used a moniker, knowing that that was my rootedness, that theologically I am evangelical, but social practices, social policy. I couldn't have been farther away. So how do you integrate your theology and your practice with some dumb moniker? And so I remember it was January 2010, and there was a group of us in Colorado that felt it was insufficient that evangelicals had not weighed in on immigration

ever. This is before the evangelical immigration table. This is before people were really speaking up. Not that it has changed much in our own voting, but it is not unusual to find an evangelical who supports immigration reform. This is in the. I would say, the dark ages of immigration. When you did not see that. And I remember they put me as the first speaker, and this Other guy as the bat, the last speaker. And we had this whole slew, and, you know, NPR was there, the associate. It was a

big deal. Um, we were going to come out that to be pro life, meant to be pro immigrant. And I was the opening speaker. And I thought, michelle, this is the time to be the most bold. And I. That was when I used it, uh, and said who I was, and people were shocked. How can you be an evangelical you care about? I am. I'm my theology. And I honestly think that the evangelicals that we know of in the past, they are not following evangelical theology. They have become a voting block that is

completely separated. I told you my hermeneutic was Jesus. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: You know, if you read any of my books, I mean, you've read my book, you see that. Enjoying the resistance. It couldn't be more biblical. I've got. I focus on a prophet in every single chapter, and then I focus on multiple parables of what the kingdom of God looks like here, you know, through these stories. That is an even. I mean, evangelicals, one of the biggest things is the Bible as the

authority. I don't think they're reading their Bible. So I would just say that we have a missed discipleship. And then I will just throw the entire Christian faith kind of. Not the Catholics. They're the North Star on social, you know, social, um, concerns and really addressing social concerns in the world. They're the North Star. Usually what I say is that I'm a public theologian. It means social concerns exist in the world and God has something

to say about. If evangelicals are really living the way they say, then they need to know the Bible. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: I was taught to memorize whole books of it. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: I was growing up, and I had to diagram the King James Version in English, and that's how much I had to do. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: You know the Bible.

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: Then you know that God has something to say about social concerns that exist in the world. And there are different approaches to it in government, however, the assault on the poor, whether it's the welfare Queen of the 80s. >> Loren: Uh-huh. >> Speaker D: To the assault on immigrants, that they are murderous and rapists. Nobody should be endorsing that. That is not anywhere to be found in the Bible. >> Loren: Right.

>> Speaker D: And I could continue, you know, uh, in my seminarian, you know, debate. I'm not an apologist, although I do know my Bible. So I would say that public theology should be something. We all who follow the Bible should be public theologians. And so I'd say we lack our public theology. And we lack a public discipleship we don't even understand. And the idea that evangelical churches, for sure, in the past and even now, it's like caring for the poor is

optional. I mean, let's not even get into how you vote. That should not be. So. I, I'm, I'm not sad to use the word evangelical. I understand that it's loaded. It's a good leverage. >> Loren: Right. >> Speaker D: But it also makes me sad that my people lack an understanding of the Bible and God's care and concern and centering of the poor.

And you see it all throughout, from Genesis all the way through Revelations, uh, that God has a special care and a special concern for the poor, for the widow, for the orphan, for the immigrant. And if we don't have a special concern, then we are misaligned not only with Jesus and what he demonstrated for us, but, but the word that he.

>> Loren: Spoke, I'm thinking about, obviously, like you mentioned, I, uh, want to acknowledge and I think it's very acknowledged, like Ryan Burge, if you're familiar with his research, he certainly pointed out how evangelicalism, or the label evangelical, certainly has become a voting moniker almost more than a theological moniker. But I'm also intrigued kind of by what you said about discipleship, or at least that's how I understood it. But you've obviously been in ministry

leadership. Your family has. And I wonder. I'm just thinking, I think I've heard this. Certainly there's a story. What, recently or relatively recently? A couple years. Right. Russell Moore. I'm thinking about how, uh, he shared about how pastors were getting pushback, about sharing, um, the Beatitudes. Uh, I mean, it certainly seems like, and

I don't know if this is too broad brush, but it feels accurate. People are being certainly discipled far more from the cable news or the influencers than they are by scripture and their pastor. And I think in some ways, um, if I can go after my own camp a little bit, pick my own side, I think there is a challenge because one's politics almost are elevated over one's theology. How do we begin to turn that tide? >> Speaker D: So many things are coming in my head

right now. It's Martin Luther King talking about the prophetic zeal that needs to be in our churches. Um, okay, I'm going to tell you a story. So I was working to try to talk to senior pastors all around the metro area, and it ended up expanding nationally. And because I had started Open Door Ministries, a lot of pastors from megachurches knew me. >> Loren: Right. >> Speaker D: Uh, and So I had audience with them, and so I set

a meeting. And, and almost everybody dreaded it because they knew what I was going to talk about. And I'm not a, I'm not a mean person. I actually have a really. When I'm not sick, I have a really gentle voice. And, you know, and I'm. I'm prophetic and unapologetic, but. But certainly not harsh. And so I, I made a meeting. It was one of the largest, um, churches in Douglas county, very wealthy, third wealthiest county in the country. And, you know, he. We had some

nice things. We were saying some niceties and kind of were getting down to the conversation. And I was sitting across on his couch, and he said, you know, Michelle, nobody's talking about immigration here. >> Loren: Ah. >> Speaker D: And I said nothing. And just in case I hadn't caught it, he said it again with a little bit more passion. Nobody's talking about immigration here. And I waited and I said, no, you aren't talking about immigration here. And so

you have allowed. And I numbered the amount of thousands of people in his congregation, this many thousands of people to allow their views of immigrants to be determined. Determined by cable news. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: And then the conversation really got spicy and we got into it, you know, but that is the problem is pastors know, because the Hebrew word for immigrant or the Hebrew word ger is used 92 times in the Old Testament.

All you do is hear the story of every founding patriarch of the Old Testament being on the move. Being an immigrant, you get into the New Testament. Even Jesus isn't alive for two years and already he's fleeing border. >> Loren: Uh-huh. >> Speaker D: We're told to live as soldiers in a land and be citizens in heaven. And

so pastors know the theology is there. I've had thousands, hundreds, at least one on one meetings with pastors around immigration and their, Their, their nervousness, their fear to preach about it. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: Because public discipleship. >> Loren: Right. >> Speaker D: Uh, in the. What I'm talking about is we're talking about public being not private. You know, public means we care about everybody. >> Loren: Right.

>> Speaker D: So social concerns. We care about every. My discipleship is. I got to make you care about everybody, including the immigrants you're afraid of, including the gang bangers you're worried about in the city, including, you know, everybody. You shy away from it because in. >> Loren: The evangelical work, it's church growth at all costs. >> Speaker D: Well, it's not just that, but evangelicals don't have bishops.

>> Loren: Yes. There's no one holding them accountable. >> Speaker D: The polity of an evangelical church is the elder Born, which is made up of the body in that community. And usually wealthy. >> Loren: Uh-huh. >> Speaker D: Men. >> Loren: Yeah, Jose. >> Speaker D: Wealthy landed men, land owning men. You pick your most powerful men to put on your altar board, and they determine if that pastor is in or out. You say a couple sermons, you're out, you're

out. And that's kind of the political spectrum, too. And I've worked with congressional leaders, obviously, at both the Senate and the House level. You know, I've had access to working with people who've worked in both, you know, in some. Some of the White House positions. And, you know, and then I've got State around the

country and stuff. When you have those private conversations, it is very hard to find a legislator at any level behind closed doors, not to admit that there needs to be a restoration for undocumented immigrants. >> Loren: Uh-huh. >> Speaker D: That knows the narrative that's being sold is a lie. >> Loren: Uh-huh.

>> Speaker D: But what happens is, when you stand in front of that pulpit or you get out publicly, if you have a congregation that pushes back in an older board, then you're like, well, then I'm just going to be out and they're going to keep finding that person. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: I'm not defending any of it. I'm just saying that's the chronic system. And right now, here we are. All these appointments and all these. If you fight me, I'm

going to primary you. It's kind of the same idea. So this is a time. There's always a time. But this is an easy time to see that the rise of the prophets need to come. Which is why I thought about MLK and the prophetic. >> Loren: Uh-huh. >> Speaker D: Is that we should be both in our pulpits. We need. We need. Well, Jesus came as prophet, priest and king. We need leadership in all of that way.

But when we lose the prophet in the pulpit, we sell our congregation, our flock, to the culture. >> Loren: Yeah. Let's stay on this, because I think this is an important point. It seems like primarily I see this from an outsider perspective, so tell me if you think I'm wrong. But it seems like in evangelical churches, there tends to be a lot of, like, we see you struggling with your marriage, we see you struggling

paying the bills. Kind of like a lot of empathy around helping you have a good marriage, helping you with your relationships, helping you with your kids, like, really kind of banging in on those or cycling through those things, which I think mainliners tend to struggle with. Like, mainliners crush the prophetic, I think, but don't always help folks with the empathy around Their kind of lived

experience struggles. Whereas, uh, from, again, an outsider perspective, it seems like evangelicals really do a good job saying, hey, I hear you when you're struggling with this and that and the other. But then don't move them to that. Like, hey, I hear you when you say you're struggling with your marriage and, and paying your bills and all that. But let's move you to that. I mean, uh, you've kind of already said it. Is it, Is it just like survival? You know, why pastors, I don't think.

>> Speaker D: Oh, the pastors of this. I don't think, first of all, evangelicalism is majority white and it is majority middle class income or higher. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: Okay, so let's just start with that. You know, I told you that proximity had transformed me. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: I remember when Nick Wolster. Stoff, you know him? >> Loren: I don't.

>> Speaker D: Okay, well, maybe I shouldn't go down that, that vein. But he is a very well known, um, theologian on the work of justice. >> Loren: Okay. >> Speaker D: He's the one who coined the quartet of the vulnerable, the poor, the widow, the orphan, the immigrant. I was speaking Grand Rapids and he was in the audience. Glad I didn't know that. That would have scared me and made me nervous. I mean, he's kind of a big deal

globally. And he asked me, he's like, how did you know to go from charity to justice? I didn't know who was asking me that question, but I had to stop and I said, because I saw injustice. So if you don't see pain, poverty and justice, what Nick said was, that's what happened to me too. So it was, to him, it was like, how can I look at this white, educated, privileged woman who completely understands moving from charity to justice. That

can't be possible. When I think about the socioeconomic background and framing. How did you do that? And you have to see injustice in order to get to justice. That's why the black church is so good. I would say, yeah, the main line's fine. The black church is

good. I mean, I probably argue with you on the mainline church, but I would say that, that the prophetic and standing up for justice and teaching us a way forward is the black church, uh, uh, from the earliest of times, not just through the 1960s. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: I mean, the Jim Crow period, they were getting schools and yeah, they were getting substantive schools. They'd get schools. They had substance, but

they got. They were getting them in for life and land, you know, so you see, and they were doing it through the social network of the church. And when the, you know, when the leaders of Alabama said, we're not going to have an ACLU in our state, you know, all of a sudden the pastors of the Black Church of Alabama said, well, we'll form our own Alabama

to their. To their death, practically. Like their lives were constantly in, you know, question as far as their safety because of that prophetic nature of we are going to fight for justice. They knew it because they were intimate with injustice, because they were living it. I would say that moving from charity to justice is not self serving for white privileged America. And so you don't see or feel the urgency of injustice.

>> Loren: Yep. >> Speaker D: So you're going to focus and then also, we are not a resilient people. >> Loren: Yeah, that's a good point. >> Speaker D: And justice is a long work. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: Whether you're white or not, if you're gonna do. I mean, you don't. Just because I have my white skin. I mean, there's plenty of white senior pastors. I have this friend, Alan Cross, white senior Southern

Baptist pastor. The people that we would meet with, don't look at him and say, oh, well, because you're a white Southern Baptist pastor, we're going to give you immigration reform. They're like, no, we're going to kick you out of the church, which is what happened. >> Loren: Uh-huh. >> Speaker D: So I'm just saying that there's. Justice is a very long work and we don't have resilience by nature in our congregations. We have a very myopic view.

So we're going to focus on our own family. And then there's folks in the family that's re emphasized. That is, though, that is the God. >> Loren: Yeah. Yep. >> Speaker D: And then we're going to focus on our own emotional health, which is important in our own spiritual development. But here's is the ineptness of us. We were made to be salt light in darkness. And when you have light that just cloisters into light, you can't even see if your light

is very strong. It's not until you put it into the darkness that you can see that you're being effective. I wish people would just preach that metaphor. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: Run to the darkness with the light. Only idiots would hide it. I'm sorry, there's a. There's something in the Beatitudes about that. You know, we as evangelicals and I would even say white privileged America. And I have seen it even with mainline churches in some communities for sure.

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: And then I've seen it even in Catholics, even though their social teaching is the North Star. But Evangelicals especially, we have been hiding out in our basements with our canned goods, uh, batteries, and our flashlights, and we're waiting for the darkness to pass until Jesus comes. >> Loren: Uh-huh. >> Speaker D: Instead of using everything we can with the light that he says, I'm the light of the world, you are the light

of the world. Go shine. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: And I think we cloister and we're taught to be afraid through culture. >> Loren: Uh-huh. >> Speaker D: And then the church does not explain how powerful light is in darkness. And then we created all these schools that we can make our children grow up in bubbles. And we're afraid of the darkness. And that is moronic because the only thing that should be the darkness should be

afraid because the light is penetrating it. And I'll end with this. God. Evangelicals believe in the creation narrative. I mean, there's an intelligent design. There's some debate on how long, but they all believe it to be a real story. And the beautiful thing about the narrative that echoes of the light pushing out darkness is, guess what was created on day one? God has been pushing out darkness with light since day one. He is commanded, commissioned, and equipped us to do

it. Horse not doing the work. >> Loren: Yeah. Let me ask one more question then, before we take a break. I'm thinking again about the word proximity has come up multiple times through this interview. Certainly you have a book on that topic. I'm thinking also about. Are, uh, you familiar with Brenda Salter McNeil's book? >> Speaker D: She's a very good friend of mine. >> Loren: Okay. >> Speaker D: And yes, I know her well, uh.

>> Loren: Because I read hers, I don't know, over the summer or something. >> Speaker D: Which one? >> Loren: I, uh, can't remember. It's her recent book. Uh, but from the book, it said something. She

said something that proximity breeds care, which is certainly something you've alluded to. Again and again, I'm thinking again, um, of this broader dynamics within evangelicalism of the kind of, like, the megachurch campus when we think, like. I'm thinking about throughout the metro, as we're sitting here in person, I'm thinking of out east and out north, and certainly you alluded to south of these huge behemoth churches that really have become like. I love your imagery of just like, we're going

to have a beacon of light here. We're not going to take our light out into the darkness. Certainly, if I'm understanding correctly, that really goes against the mission and ethos of open door here. >> Speaker D: Oh, yeah. >> Loren: Of taking light into the darkness.

And it's so funny, um, because, yeah, there's been like this protectionism against how then what are some simple steps, some beginning practices churches can do, pastors can do, because maybe in some context, like getting up and giving whole justice sermons is going to get them right out the door. And they, they. They want to pay their mortgage and keep their family fed, but also they want to move the needle. >> Speaker D: Yeah. Well, that's the reason I wrote

Proximity. The way I wrote it was because we need to be willing to humble ourselves and leave our places of comfort. We need to be willing to humble ourselves and leave our places of comfort to love people who are different. That is literally what Jesus did. Jesus left and emptied himself of power and position and rights to leave his godliness. Uh, I mean, he kept it with him, but, you know, the perfection, you know, the. The essence of his power to be born as a baby and be a human being for a

stretch also. Ah. He could demonstrate. That's what I said. This is how we know one love is. Jesus Christ laid down his life. Yes, he died. That was a part of it. That was a huge part of it. But he laid it down from day one. >> Loren: Uh-huh. >> Speaker D: And so I would say that the reason proximity is powerful is it makes you search scripture to try to understand the complexities of the brokenness and the pain of the world. And so what I would say is that what

I would want. The next steps would be to the pastor, not the discipleship pastor or the missions pastor. I want the senior pastor. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah. >> Speaker D: I want him as an elder board, not to give the money. >> Loren: Uh-huh. >> Speaker D: But to. And not just one time. >> Loren: Right. >> Speaker D: But as a practice. >> Loren: Yeah.

>> Speaker D: Be journeying as a practice to pair up. And this is an organizing methodology I have with immigrant, non immigrant pastors. That's why I get a lot of people who are supporting immigration because they've walked with immigrant pastors and their brothers. >> Loren: Yeah.

>> Speaker D: And their sisters, their family. But for a pastor from a well to do congregation to literally not do anything to the inner city pastor or for them, but do it with them, um, so that we can mutually encourage one another. If that would be so radical. Because yes, preaching would change, but people would follow. And here's the thing is we are watching a mass exodus of a younger generation leaving the church because they. The Christian Witness, specifically the

evangelical church. But the Christian Witness is a scandal. It doesn't measure up. The actions are embarrassing. If you would see pastors and elders pouring themselves out on behalf of the poor, not for a sermon illustration. >> Loren: Right, right. >> Speaker D: But as a practice and a way of Life. Yeah, that's what I would want to see. >> Loren: Yeah.

>> Speaker D: Because I know it would be transformative. It is humiliating, humble and humiliating to pour yourself out in a community that has a perpetual poverty problem, who has been written out of a system, who doesn't have the resource, that doesn't have the economic, the social or the political capital to be able to survive, and then gets blamed for it now, uh, from the inside. How dare you. Yeah, but, uh, from. From looking as a person who's grown up from the outside.

Come be with us. >> Loren: That's good. Let's take a break and we'll come back with some closing questions. >> Speaker D: All right. >> Loren: We're back with Michelle Frigna. Warren. Thank you so much for this conversation. Closing questions. I always tell folks. We tell folks. Co host Martha, Shout out. Uh, you can take these as seriously or not as you want to, but if you're Pope for a day, what does that look like for you?

>> Speaker D: My goodness. If I was Pope for a day, I really would shake things up because the Pope is supposed to be the head of the church and has a global reach and some of that has been used for harm. I'm thinking of sort of the Papal Bulls of the doctrine of discovery and all the harm of colonization. I actually wrote a paper that I presented in Oxford now, a couple years ago now on how we could fix our white Christian nationalism problem and the Pope

could do it. Oh, so if I were Pope for a day. >> Loren: Oh, my goodness. >> Speaker D: I would insist that we, as the church establish. I'm talking about the global Christian Church established a truth Racial Healing and Transformation Commission, much like the healing commissions of itself. Apartheid. I mean, there's been many across the whole, whole world in history. But we would have a truth Racial Healing Transformation Commission,

and the church would not run it. At least the white or dominant or Euro church, so the black church could run it. But that we would need to present ourselves before a truth commission to answer for our atrocities and then ones we continue to perpetuate by insisting that a kingdom that has come through Christ and his humility and emptying himself out, that we have grabbed power, we have tried to have dominion. I mean, like, we should follow the

temptations of Christ. You know, he did not say yes to being in power and we need to say no as well, and that we should submit humbly to a commission, and if we lose titles and buildings and property, so be it. So, yeah, I would establish a commission and I would make the white Euro church be the ones who have to answer to it. >> Loren: That is Perhaps the most well thought out response I think I've gotten, perhaps.

>> Speaker D: Well, if you read the paper that I wrote for even the progressive group at Oxford, he was quite shocked. >> Loren: I feel like I need to, like, have a link in the show notes, so. >> Speaker D: Oh, I should find out where in the press link it could be. I will look for it. >> Loren: Send it to me. Um, a theologian or historical Christian figure you don't want to meet, bring back to life. >> Speaker D: Okay, there's two.

>> Loren: Yeah, that's allowed. >> Speaker D: I don't want to bring anybody back to life. >> Loren: That's okay. >> Speaker D: I appreciate them for their. Okay, so very Old Testament Deborah. I actually write about her in chapter 8 or 9 of the Power of Proximity, as a worship leader, as, uh, a wife of a man who was respected at the Cape. In that scenario, as well as one that grows up in a fundamental evangelical church, how would God choose a woman to lead?

My husband did a toast probably 15, 20 years ago now and said to a modern day Deborah, he got me a palm tree and said, a modern day Deborah, because he was watching me lead senior pastors, national leaders, literally to war in the political realm, in the spiritual realm, on behalf of justice. And so, Deborah, she says, who am I? In her song, who am I But a mother in Israel? That's why I feel, who am I? Just a mother in Denver. >> Loren: Yeah.

>> Speaker D: These little kids, this is hard to even believe. So, Deborah, oh, my goodness. I want to talk to her. And then the second one is Mother Cabrini, hands down. I write about her enjoying the resistance. I write about. A lot of people join the resistance, but Mother Cabrini here in Colorado, we no longer have Columbus Day, we have Cabrini Day because we want to respect Italian American heritage or heritage without using someone who did some horrible acts. >> Loren: Yes.

>> Speaker D: And Cabrini was. She was the first American citizen to be canonized as a saint. >> Loren: Uh-huh. >> Speaker D: She is the saint of the immigrant. She wanted to do work, and the Pope told her because she had a bad lung condition, she was too weak, and she wouldn't give up. And so instead of being able to go to the east, he said, go to the west and help the Italian immigrants in New

York. And she ended up starting and moved all the way from the west, further west, and ended up in China with the largest Catholic order in her name. And I will just say that I am struggling with whooping cough because I had complications, because since I was a very little girl, four, just like a rainy four or five, I have very weak lungs. I'm an asthmatic. When things happen I'm hospitalized. Um, I mean, like, it is not. It doesn't happen often. >> Loren: Uh-huh.

>> Speaker D: I'm very fierce, but when it does, I have no good health to fall on. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: So to be hospitalized on oxygen, struggling these months later. That's right. That's about right. Well, Mother Cabrini was fierce for her love for Christ and her care for the poor, her care for immigrants. I'm an Italian American. She's an Italian immigrant who became an American, and she was told to play it safe because of her health.

Exactly like people wanted to bubble wrap me. >> Loren: That's a good answer. Um, this is a broad question, so feel free to answer how you wish. What do you think history will remember from our current time and place? >> Speaker D: It will not remember us kindly. We've had a good conversation. I haven't. I felt passionate at times, but not emotional. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: I feel emotional. History's hand is being written, and it needs to be stopped because

the church. And that's all of, um, us, not just the evangelicals. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: The Christian church will not be remembered kindly. >> Loren: Yeah. How hard to argue with turning. Turning this a little bit more optimistic, I suppose, or hopeful. What would you then hope for the future of Christianity? >> Speaker D: I won't tell you right now. >> Loren: Yeah, we've talked about this. Yeah.

>> Speaker D: Hope is what we got. You know, I've had friends. I had this one particular friend. He's like, how. How can you do another day? And it was during a really bleak time. I said, you know what? Every day I have to drink a glass of hope. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: And sometimes that glass is asked to be huge. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: I mean, hope. It's not about the present.

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: It is this conviction, this faith to believe that what I see right now does not have to be. It's setting a vision of what can be. So I hope for what I have been literally created and called. I think humanity has been called to hope for peace, for wholeness, for restoration. But there will not be peace without doing the work of justice. So my hope for my people and, you know, enjoying the resistance, a third of that book is how to help our people.

And when I say help my people, they're one of my people. My hope is that we will understand a, uh, public theology that would drive and deepen us into a public discipleship and engagement. No more private need it. No more private. Needed meaning public for everyone. God so loved the whole world. The church needs to love the whole world in action and in truth. >> Loren: All right, well, I appreciate this conversation. Thank you so much for your time. Um, obviously, the book

is power. No, I can tell you tell. I'm getting the titles confused. Give your book, give how folks can connect with you, all that stuff. >> Speaker D: First of all, I'm not an email snob, so if you email me@michelleforignowarren.com it would be very rare that. I mean, something happened. I got whooping cough. So email me again. So my first. So Michelle ferrignowarren.com is my website. I obviously can get to know me. I have organizations locally and nationally that can help you do the

work of justice groups. I work with groups I trust. Even my company, Virago Strategies, you can see who I work with. I do a lot of technical assistance for church, churches and nonprofit, um, leaders to help them do the work of justice. Um, and also if you're in Denver, how to actually specifically help migrant arrivals. And now how to respond in protection defense to possible immigration deportation.

>> Loren: Gosh, I wish we had more time to talk about that because just some news came out on that and churches, but we don't have time. >> Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. Anyway, check out the website. But my books, I have two books right now, and on my website I have podcasts and articles, and I've written quite a bit. But the first book was the Power of Proximity Moving Beyond Awareness to Action. And the next book is actually picks you right up from chapter nine into

chapter one. It originally was supposed to be called the Power of Resistance. >> Loren: Okay. >> Speaker D: I changed it Join the Resistance, because it came out and I was writing it right around George Floyd. Uh, and I didn't want anybody to think that they should start something new, uh, that we needed to join the move that was already happening. Not just for a day. >> Loren: Right. >> Speaker D: I mean, a day is fine. >> Loren: Yeah.

>> Speaker D: But keep going. And so join the resistance. Step into the good work of Kingdom Justice. It has a study guide built into it. It has a Spotify playlist. You know, it's. It's a. It's an in depth book, a kind of a manual to, uh, how to do the work of public discipleship and engagement. As a Christian, I might have evangelical rootedness, but I wrote that book with Catholics in mind and mainlines inline. I think it has a generous Christian orthodox.

>> Loren: Yeah, I forgot about the, the songs. That was a fun part about the book. >> Speaker D: I'm a musician. >> Loren: Yeah, there's. Because there's another book. Well, we don't have time to discuss, but thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate the conversation. Always, um, leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. >> Speaker D: Thank you. And also with you.

>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The Future Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website at, uh, future-christian.com and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to

more people. Thanks and go in peace.