Season 17 Recap: Challenges, Growth, and the Future Church

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am, um, your co host, Martha Tatarnic and I'm so happy that today I get to be with your regular host, Loren Richmond Jr. As we do a little bit of a recap of the past season and touch base with

one another. Loren, I feel like I'm in conversation with you all week because, you know, you're in my earbuds as I'm listening to your Future Christian episodes. Um, but it is really fun for us to get some opportunity to set aside an hour or so to chat with one another, so. >> Loren: Absolutely. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to your own podcast, Loren. >> Loren: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, anytime. Um, so I, I've been reviewing all of the episodes from this past season, and, uh, I reached out to Loren before we began recording today because I just felt really compelled to get a little bit real today with our listeners and just share a bit with, um, with our community about what the past three months have

been like for me. And, um, you know, the reason why I want to share this is not because I need some woe is me time, um, but because I think that there are some, um, there are some takeaways that I've been experiencing over the past three months that have a lot to do with what we're trying to do and offer here at Future Christian. So, as, um, some of our listeners might know, I had, uh, this great experience of being able to take September as a writing

Sabbath. And I, um, worked really hard for the month of September. Like every day I got up at 5am and I worked almost nonstop until whatever time of night. Um, yeah, it was definitely, uh, work, but it was such a different kind of work from my normal life because it was just this pure passion project. It was so focused. Right. Like, so much of our, uh, work in ministry is this crazy juggling act. >> Loren: Yes. Jack of all trades.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Jack of all trades. Yeah. Juggling act. And so I had this, like, very pure experience of work for the month of September. And then I came back to the ministry context in October and November. And again, as many of our Listeners will know. And you know, Loren, like, I generally have had a very happy ministry and I serve in a really great church

community. And yet I kind of found myself, um, teetering a little bit for the past two months on the edge of depression because there was just this, um, like, stark contrast between what September had been like and then what faced me when I came back in October. So, you know, what faced me in October, among all of the delightful things about ministry were things like serving a downtown church where, uh, like the precariousness of people's lives is just getting more and more

extreme. Food insecurity and, and lack of housing is getting more and more extreme. And the winter months are coming and people don't have anywhere to be, and they're sleeping on our church property and they're flooding our breakfast program. And um, then there's just all of these behaviors that go along with such precarious living that, uh, we're facing every day, uh, at St. George's security concerns and security of our guests who access those programs and our volunteers and all, all of

those things. So I mean, like, that's one pressure point. And of course I came back to like, year end and budgetary concerns and um, like the realities of like, the cost of living crisis and inflation and then how hard it is to um, manage that in a church budget when all of the costs are going up, but people's wallets are feeling more and more pillaged. >> Loren: Right. >> Martha Tatarnic: And then there's the pastoral realities.

And I came back to, you know, a few, A few people in the congregation who I have really, um, like, looked to as kind of my sources of wisdom in ministry, um, suddenly being in failing health. And um, and I'm trying to be their pastor, but I'm also grieving because like, it's. I feel the loss too. Um, I came back to, you know, just the ongoing realities of serving the mainline church and in the Anglican Church,

uh, globally. There's been kind of a bunch of news stories about the failures of the denomination and the failures of church leadership. And you can just feel that, like, anxiety all across the system manifesting in some very, um, difficult ways as systemically, you know, we try to navigate decline. And then in the midst of all of that, like, I also have a family and I'm a mother, and I'm a mother of teenagers and there's like a lot of emotional labor at home

as well. And um, again, like, I'm not trying to say all of this because I want a pity party. Um, I think that these are really normal pressure points that like, that we face across ministry. And I think why they hit me so hard um, this fall is because of the contrast of being able to do such different kind of work for 30 days. Yeah, um, I've really felt. And I can give you a shout out here Loren, um, because I can say what I'm going to say without sounding ah, like I'm bragging about myself.

Um, I have really found Future Christian this fall to be a pretty important touch point for me in, especially in October and November as I've been like trying to come back into uh, like navigating those pressure points. Um, because every week when I put my earbuds in and listen to the conversation that you've had with one of our really amazing guests, what um, I find I'm getting are like two things that

I really need in particular. And these are kind of the two themes that have really stuck out to me across this season. So I think the first theme is one that we identify a lot in our conversations which is around um, clergy mental

health. But you've had some really good um, resources offered this season in that department, particularly in that intersection between the scientific psychological community and then how that impacts how we understand the stories that we're navigating, the trauma that we're living with, the ways that um, our pressure points can get triggered in unhelpful ways the narratives that we might be carrying in our bodies and in our memories.

So um, that those like new resources into that conversation I have just found extremely helpful because uh, not only does it offer resources but it normalizes I think, a lot of the um, stress that we can be carrying in ministry and the struggle to stay well. Honestly, like it can be a struggle to stay well. So that's the first theme that I just really want to call

out. And um, and then the other theme that I really see across our guests this season is just a lot of like really well curated data like from the ground, from people who have done the research about what is actually happening in our churches. And then like what we're learning, like what we're learning from young people, what we're learning from young people in specific regions, what we're learning about um, different kinds of communities across our, across our Christian

landscape. Um, and uh, for me anyway, in the midst of all of the swirling heartbreak and anxiety that can be the mainline church, to get really grounded um, in information about what's really happening. M. And just have like really frank, honest and ah, um, like conversation that comes with receipts you know, like not just sort of ideas but like we've actually done the work and found out what's going on. Um, that's been a real touchstone

for me. So all of that is to say to our listeners, um, I hope that if you're feeling any of those same stresses that I've named, I hope that you're finding this to be a, ah, safe community and a ah, space that gives you food for the journey. Because I certainly have been finding it to be that. And then I just also want to say thank you Loren, because um, what you've started here with Future Christian is uh, just so essential. >> Loren: Yeah, thank you. And I certainly appreciate your

partnership. Thanks to listeners and folks who have engaged. Uh, this really has become, you know, a podcast really centered on, as I say, an ecclesiology centered podcast as I'm someone who really believes in and cares about the church and

especially pastors. You know, having worked in that space in the past and hopefully again in the future at a point in official capacity and having so many friends and colleagues in that space, like Martha, all those things you said, A, holy smokes, that's a lot to step back into. And B, like I know all those points, if not all the many of them are impacting pastors and church leaders, you know, the budgets, you know,

the. I mean I work right now in a context where you work with low uh, income and that can, you know, I think it can be easy to kind of romanticize that kind of ministry and like, oh, we're going to help these low income folks and needy folks and then you kind of get working with them. You realize like, hey, they're, they're complicated folks and there's a lot of other stuff going on there that complicates things. Mhm. >> Martha Tatarnic: No easy solutions. Yeah, yeah,

yeah. Well, thank you for saying that. And um, yeah, I think that at any given time many of us are carrying around kind of a whole handful of those kinds of stresses and then some. Right. Like, right. >> Loren: Um, I, because obviously, and I'll, I'm sorry, I'll, I'll say on this too, like obviously the economy has been, it's debated especially here in the States about how bad it is, how bad it's not. But I think like inflation, like that's a data

point. Right. Speaking of data points, that's a receipt that we can speak to. Again, the arguments to be made about whose fault it is or whatever, whatever. But like that's a real thing. That is, you uh, know, a real data point that is Impacting. I mean, I just bought, uh, lunch day at the grocery store. I'm like, how is mayonnaise 350 for mayonnaise? Like, store brand mayonnaise.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. And so you're simultaneously dealing with, like, we're dealing with, you know, a 3%, um, rise in all of our salaries at, um, the church. But at the same time, we're asking our congregation to give more money that they don't have because of that same, like, problem. Right. So just, uh, it can, can really take you in a mind spiral for sure.

So, um, as I've, as I've been gratefully leaning, uh, into the future Christian, um, this season, not as the host primarily, um, but just as one of the listeners, um, we have celebrated a pretty important milestone. And so as we do this recap, um, today, I really thought, starting with that milestone, um, that milestone episode was important to call out in a celebratory way, which is that 200 episodes ago, Loren, you were, um, just launching this whole

thing. And, uh, you were a person with an idea and a dream about, um, what a podcast space could look like and what kinds of needs it could be addressing. And, you know, 200 episodes later, here we are. And, uh, and I really believe that, um, that we're offering something really important into the landscape of church leadership. But I wasn't part of starting it up 200 episodes ago. I was.

I'm a late arrival. Um, and I'd like to just ask you again, what was the initial spark that got you into this? >> Loren: I mean, it was like many things, a Covid project of feeling like, I mean, part of good. Right. There was certainly this pressure on Covid to produce more, even though there was a crisis happening. So I think that was part of it. And it was also, I think for me, like, if this has not been obvious to folks, I'm an enneagram5, so I love taking information in. And

part of being healthy. Enneagram5 is sharing information out there. So leaning into becoming an eight, um, and you know, this podcast is one of the ways that I get to do that. I think also, like, a dream job for me would be a academic, like a professor. Like, that ship has probably sailed, at least in the near future. That's not going to happen realistically. But I'm in a space where, I mean, I get to talk to again to name some of our guests, like Dr. Elesha Coffman and Dr. Uh,

Kristina Lazard Hashby. And, you know, these, these like, wonky seminary or seminary and academic professors. Like, I get to have conversations with them, which, you know, before podcasting existed would not. I don't think it'd been a possibility. Like, I get some measure of being in that kind of academic, nerdy space without having a title or done, you know, PhD doctoral work. So I think that's really exciting for me. Um, and again,

like, obviously, like, we've. We've talked about, like, this is stuff that we think and I think is helpful. Um, so it's like, I get to try to be helpful and also be a little visionary, I think, as I try to think, like, where do I at least think church might be going? Where do I think leaders might be struggling with? You know, how can that be helpful to them? And then I'll just say this. Like, I just said this to someone this morning. Like, podcasting is a lot of work. I don't know if

folks really understand how much work it is. And I sort of, like, about every month or two, I'm just like, oh, can I just. I should just quit. It's just like, so much work. And I'm just like, oh, do I really want to do this? And then, like, you know, I read a good book, like your forthcoming, uh, guest, uh,

Jesse Zink. Right. Who Martha will have on, and I'm just like, you know, I got a. I got a new stack of books here that I'm looking forward to read and going to reach out to some more contacts for conversations, and that really keeps, uh, me going. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. Yeah, I can appreciate all of those things. Um, you do say all the time that. That you're a church nerd, so, yeah, it does seem like a good space for that. And you're

right. Um, the labor behind the scenes is, I think, way more than I thought. As somebody who voraciously listens to podcasts, I didn't quite, uh, understand how much work goes into producing podcasts. Um, how has it evolved over the past couple of years, the past 200 episodes? >> Loren: I mean, I think what comes to mind first, just, like, I've somehow sustain this for, like, four different jobs. It's probably

the most realistic challenge. And hopefully, hopefully there'll be a fifth job that I'll sustain this through, or maybe even sixth, who knows? Um, I think that's just like, the most obviously, technology and resources, like having you come on board, having. Um, our production guy right now is Alex Lang, Alexander Lang, who Martha has had in a guest, and again, we'll be having on again in a future

episode here shortly. So there's been different people to kind of do the, some of the editing work, which again helps just kind of manage the overall labor. Um, I've been fortunate to, for the podcast, receive some support from Phillips Seminary, my alma mater. So shout out to Philip Seminary and thank you for your support there. And, uh, really just been. I mean, it really is a labor of love, though. Um, it's. It's sort

of. It sort of is mind boggling to think 200 episodes because it's, it's a good bit of work and conversations and I'm. I'm grateful. I've had so many conversations with so many really interesting people. >> Martha Tatarnic: Are there any that, uh, that stick out particularly that you'd want to just raise as like kind of dream conversations for you? >> Loren: I mean, I think one that always comes to

mind immediately is. And it's funny, when I was at theology beer camp like a month or two ago, like, I, uh, was sitting, getting ready for like the start of the opening session and like, literally, who sits right next to me is Brian McLaren. Yeah, he's, you know, certainly there's been a. There's a lot of. All these folks have been very generous in kind with their time. You know, Brian always strikes me as someone who's very humble, very generous, very kind, and I've really appreciate

that. Um, you know, even beyond him though, certainly, you know, the nerdy conversations are the ones that I tend to appreciate the most. I think, um, you know, I think of again, Dr. Elesha Coffman. You know, I've really try to lean into when the opportunity arises to do in person interviews. So, you know, I've tried to do some like again, with Dr. Kristina Lazardi Hashby, who's in my neck of the woods. Megan Basel, who. We are kind of in the same

neck of the woods. So those have been really a lot of fun. Is when opportunity arises to do something in person. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't had that opportunity yet, but, uh, it no doubt changes the dynamic. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Martha Tatarnic: Quite significantly. Yeah. Well, okay, so if people are looking for some back catalog to go to, they should check out, uh, a few of those people. Brian McLaren, Megan, Kristina.

>> Loren: I'm going. Well, I have to look now and figure out what. Yeah, I mean, I think it's. I mean, I. It's like, it's like your children, like you love them all for different reasons. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's right. >> Loren: I mean, like, but again, like, this was obviously not mine, but like, you know, year two with, um. Who is it? Elizabeth. Dr. Elizabeth Schrader. >> Martha Tatarnic: P. Yeah,

um, Schrader. Polczer >> Loren: Pulitzer, yeah. Like, again, uh, really interesting stuff and really, I think, uh, beneficial to the podcast. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that re. Uh, look at, um, Gospel of John and Mary Magdalene. Um, she was definitely one of my heroes that I got to interview. So, you know, there's some moments where we get to be really starstruck in this, ah, chair as host.

>> Loren: And I wanted to like, even highlight some of the episodes from the summer too, of, you know, Allison Milbank I thought was a great guest. Jason Byassee obviously we mentioned, um, Elizabeth. Rob Hurkmans I thought was an interesting episode. So, you know, Martha and I are really fortunate to talk to some great folks and I'm, I'm enjoying it. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. Well, encourage

our listeners to re. Listen or go and listen for the first time to some of those previous, uh, episodes because, you know, I think that they continue to be timely. Right. Like, we're in sort of a long conversation about the future of the church. So if you go back a couple of years, I don't think you're going to listen, um, to stuff that sounds wildly out of date. >> Loren: Right.

>> Martha Tatarnic: So, um, for the 200th episode, I think it was really fitting a. That we got to be part of that episode together. >> Loren: Yes. >> Martha Tatarnic: Um, we got to do a panel discussion and I think that the topic was really, um, on point because it was around clergy health. And, you know, I've already said it in this conversation, we say it

a lot. But there's just a big component of how the conversations that we're having, um, circle back to this. So, um, so why don't we just recap a little bit of. Of that milestone, uh, episode, Loren, and you have a few clips, don't you, of that episode. >> Loren: So I'm glad again you kind of made this point. But I'll reinforce that. I think the roundtable

episode is. I think some of the ones that Martha and I think I can speak for you on this behalf have really enjoyed doing just to bring in different perspectives, and I think this was a really good one. So again, to tutor on horn here. Go back and listen if you haven't already. You, uh, know, I, I was, um, intentional about bringing in Brian, who comes from an evangelical background, although that's kind of not true because I, I talked to him recently and

his. He grew up in an ABC American Baptist church, which is technically a mainline church. He certainly serves in the evangelical context right now, but again, sort of has, uh, some mainline elements to him. Um, and then of course Kinsie, who primarily comes from a mainline background, and of course both of us, um, so really? Again, you, Martha, will tease. This has an episode coming out with Mike Casper, who, again, definitely an

evangelical voice. We really try to be intentional about bringing in different voices to bring different perspectives. And this is one of the things that I really appreciate about, uh, that episode. But let's do soothing. I can find it here. Let's play some of this clip from Kenzie Tate, because I think. Or let's do. Let's do with this one. And then, um, assuming I can make this happen. >> Kinsie Tate: So we. We constantly kind of compare so that we can make sure that we

fit in and we belong. I mean, ultimately, it's about belonging, that comparison. But when it goes off course is when we feel like I don't belong, like what I'm doing isn't good enough. But, you know, when we're in that stress response, um, and I feel like I'm not producing. Is this about patriarchy? And I need to be a certain way to be considered, like, powerful. Is this about, um, I'm just tired, and when I'm tired, I feel like I don't do a good job. So it's. There's. It's so

complex. Um, and I think that's why these conversations are important. And this is what I would really love for clergy gatherings to be. You know, like, we could talk about these things and really have some insight and feel those emotions well up and have a safe space to talk about it and maybe hear from, you know, like, you heard from Martha. It's like, I'd never

thought about it that way. Like, that's so helpful. Gives me a new level of insight to kind of integrate what it is that I'm feeling so it doesn't come out sideways. >> Loren: I. Kenzie, uh, again, shout out. Kenzie, you better be listening here. You know, I really appreciate her work. Obviously ordained herself married to a pastor. Um, pretty helpful for me. So much good stuff there. What strikes you there?

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I am struck by just the perennial problem of how badly we do as clergy when we gather together. Like, we don't. We're not good at all about making safe spaces. Like, uh, unless your context is, like, wildly different from mine, I don't think so. Yeah, like, we just, um. We just, like, so easily fall into the, like, bitch and brag categories.

>> Loren: And I, uh, Like, forgive me for cutting you off, but I feel like you can also turn into this, like, too much positive spinning or shining the turd. It's like. It's like. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, this false bravado. >> Loren: Well, it's like it's almost like, you know, to use a topic you've brought up, like oh, the budget. We're in budget crisis but we're gonna celebrate God's provision and God's abundance.

It's like can something just suck? Can we just, you know, uh, folks who, if you're not aware, check out Martha's book. Because I, I do think about this a lot. Martha, your point about ultrarealism. I don't know if you want to explain that briefly. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Ah, so ultrarealism is a term that I got um, from

endurance running. But it's like a mental strategy of uh, pulling yourself away from our tendencies of wishing that things were different or worrying about what is going to come next and actually get real about what's actually happening. So um, like name it and accept it and embrace it. Um, but, but like you've got to get to the it. Like

what's happening. None of this sort of, yeah, making um, things sound better than they are or feeling like you, you can't just say that things suck, um, you know, like what's happening and then what are we going to do about it? >> Loren: Yeah. >> Martha Tatarnic: And to me that's um, that's a much more hopeful place than what we sometimes do in clergy gatherings. >> Loren: So um, let me, let me play this clip from Brian about and I want you to be thinking

about what does this look like? What's the equivalent in like a mainline space? Let me play this and you be thinking about that. >> Brian Davis: I still hear it every once in a while but you know. >> Brian Davis: It really.

>> Brian Davis: Started to rise up kind of the mid um, early 2000s where it was like, you know, you'd be in your pre service meeting or whatever and someone, usually the lead pastor would say something like okay everybody, like this may be our one chance ever speak the truth of the gospel to the people that are sitting in these seats. So don't blow it. >> Brian Davis: Like. >> Brian Davis: How much pressure are you ah, putting on

ourselves? I mean that just pardon my language but that just reeked of to me from the beginning. Like this is not the fact that someone's personal salvation is entirely up to me and how I perform from the stage. I had to reject that right away. But there are so many who haven't and still put all that pressure on themselves. Um, to. >> Loren: Yeah. What do you think that looks like in mainline context, I wonder?

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, um, I mean my mind just initially goes to our annual data reporting and like maybe that's not like uh. I'm sure it's not the only comparison. But in our uh. So in our context anyway, they're called vestry reports. And like you have to run the data from the year, like average number of attendees and how many households you have.

And then there's like financial information and all of it has to be like sent into the diocese and, and then like the information that you send in, um, on a just like very concrete way, it depends like that affects your representation then in synods and stuff like that. But just I think the knots that um, in the past I have like gotten tied up in just. Okay, did, did our annual or did our average attendance go up this year or did it go down this

year? And like by how much did it go up? And, and, and if it didn't go up then like why didn't it go up? And, and if it did go up then okay, maybe like maybe we're doing something right and ah, like just kind of all of that um, pressure that we get like downloaded onto um, these numbers as if they tell us something about like whether or not we're doing good ministry. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Martha Tatarnic: I don't know. Like, do you kind of have a parallel?

>> Loren: I mean I think as I listen to this, I think, I think again this is getting philosophical. I think this is the other side of the coin of this. To use the Charles Taylor stuff that Andy Root writes about of the secular age where there's this, just this pressure on humans because we don't really believe that are in a God who can, you know, move and act in a world that it's on us.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. >> Loren: Uh, like, like Brian is saying, like the pressure is like we've got to make this service so good that it's compelling the people rather than trusting that the Holy Spirit will move in people. And I think in mainline progressive spaces it's like we've got to be so activist and you know, social justice because we can't really trust that God is moving in our communities. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah.

I think that's ah, an astute observation too for sure. I think like right across the board, um, I think all of us can relate to that, uh, messiah complex, I would say. Enlarge. I have. >> Loren: Sorry. >> Martha Tatarnic: That's okay. That messiah complex. Right. Like we can just um, think that it's up to us to save things. >> Loren: Well here, maybe let's play this clip here. That actually started too soon because it's. You talk about the benefits of team ministry.

>> Martha Tatarnic: I would say in large, I have enjoyed a happy ministry. You know, it hasn't always been easy and I have had times of struggle. But by and large like two decades of ministry have been happy. And the major thing that I credit to that is that I have always worked in a team. So I have never felt like I have to be the Jack of all trades. And I've never felt particularly lonely in ministry, which I think is, you know, quite different from a lot of people's

experience. So I think that there is something systemically that we could do with that observation. And, and I think that the more that we can think about how we create teams of ministry, and I don't mean just ordained leaders, um, but you know, teams of people whose gifts complement one another and who are, you know, deployed, uh, equipped, resourced to be able to share those gifts, to build up the body of Christ in the place where they're called. I think that really could be a game changer.

>> Loren: For context, I did edit that, even that clip for social media's sake. So if you want to hear Martha does speak about like some systemic ideas again, listen to episode 200. Um, I also want to hear Martha because I was just talking about this with one of my friends because you know, he has kind of wisely advised me like hey, the next ministry job, like it can't just be all you,

like you, you just can't do it. I was like, well how does that work with the fact that so many churches can barely afford like one full time person? And you kind of uh, you kind of hint at it there about non clergy type teams. And that's you know, one of the things he suggested too. But like, let's talk about that for a minute. Like what do you think about other. Because I'm um, I would need someone who like again I'm an introvert and

let uh, me defend introverts. Like we're not antisocial, we just need to guard our social energy. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yep. >> Loren: You know, so like I can't just be up front 247 talking to people. So I would probably need someone who can run some kind of interference. What else do you think, Martha?

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean I, first of all, like I do think that probably, and I have no crystal ball here, but I would imagine that in a lot of our denominations a sustainable future is going to look like some ministry centers out of which, um, you know, smaller kind of ministry, um, groupings happen that aren't necessarily in church buildings. So. >> Loren: Right. >> Martha Tatarnic: Um, so I do think that there's got to be um, a pretty big upside to that in terms of

building those teams. Right. That I was talking about. Um, and yeah, like I, I think I, my My partner in crime here at St. George's Tom, is an extrovert and I'm quite introverted. And um, and that is a nice interplay. And um, there are like parts of ministry that I just like love and get really fed by like communications and um, understanding the finances. I know that's not what everybody would say, right? >> Loren: Seems counterintuitive, but yeah.

>> Martha Tatarnic: And uh, like he has other areas that like just set him on fire. And then like I would say that there's stuff that neither one of us is that good at, like property management. And thankfully, like we have really good people in our congregation who are like excited by that file. So um, yeah, I think that uh, like we all have to do a certain amount of ministry that drains

us. Right. But. But if you get to offset that with some parts that just really like top up your tank, like. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Martha Tatarnic: It. It's great. >> Loren: Yeah, that's. >> Martha Tatarnic: Sorry, go ahead. >> Loren: No, I was just thinking like that's so true. Like any job is gonna have just suck factors

and trying to find a balance there. And I'm like, I'm thinking about a couple things I've heard about and ideas that I've had related to that is, you know, like the senior leader, the elite, whatever title. If it's a solo pastoral staff, like I'm thinking this is hard because again, costs and financial challenges be what they are. But there might be a situation where like if caught or if contexts are what they may, you may need to take a pay cut and then just hire someone to be.

Because like I'm telling you right now, if I was working on a solo staff team, like I'd almost want to just take a pay cut and hire someone, even if it's part time, who could kind of be that kind of like run interference for me. Be like the extrovert. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. >> Loren: M. Because I just, I can't be extroverted all the time. Like I really enjoy it in context. Like I really enjoy people, but I just find myself at the end of the day just like out of gas.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. Um, in the, in St. George's and in the last couple places I've served, part of our teams have been complemented by retired clergy who, you know, are now drawing a pension and um, don't want the like day in, day out responsibilities, but still really want to serve and contribute and have a lot of awesome gifts to offer. And that's a really neat way in which smaller parishes, um, can be resourced too because it can be a real win win.

Um, when People who have served in ministry get to serve in ministry in a bit of a different way without the. The big pressures kind of all the time. Um, but then it. Yeah, it fills out that. That team again, so that you're not just doing everything. >> Loren: And that's good, because what's the saying, right. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Like, I'm, um, being very disparaging of retired clergy,

but. No, you know, perhaps this is unfair, but so many stories I hear of retired clergy incarnation behaving badly. So this is, I suppose, a good way to keep them. Keep them close, keep them on and on. Your. Under your thumb. That's not the right word. But, you know, keep tabs on them. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I have. I've been very lucky in only having amazing retired clergy in my congregations, but I have heard some stories as well. Yeah, there are

some stories out there. Um, I just wanted to say one other thing about that clip, because the other piece that I was really thinking as we were listening to it is that it does come back to what we're sort of celebrating today, which is future Christian and, um, 200 episodes in and what you've been able to create

here. Because I do think that, um, this can be part of how clergy, uh, who are on the front lines, who are in challenging ministry contexts, who do sometimes feel alone, who do sometimes feel under resourced, who do sometimes feel like, um, they have to do it all that, like, this can be a community that, um, that helps to resource and companion people in ministry.

>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. >> Martha Tatarnic: So do you want to touch base about a few other standout episodes from this season, Loren? >> Loren: Yeah, why don't we do that? As I'm kind of looking through the clips I have and let me play. I can remember which one is which here. Um, for folks, go back and listen to the episode with Chuck DeGroat. Um, one of the things. I've been fortunate to have

a couple conversations with Chuck. Um, and I think one of the things that I really appreciate about him

was a. He really seemed to care about and understand pastors. Um, but two, I think the way he approaches this, I really feel like, is a good, um, approach. I'm trying to get this clip to play. Let me see here. You write that while some might contend that our core problem as humans is that we think too highly of ourselves, you say. I'd argue that most of us live with an underlying sense of worthlessness, alienation,

and disillusionment. I mean, again, as someone who grew up very conservative Christian, that quote is Shocking, almost. >> Brian Davis: Yeah, yeah. And what we know is that there are certainly people who think too highly of themselves, but underneath that inevitably is shame. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Brian Davis: And we see this play out. You know, this is sort of a psychological truism. I think it's a biblical one

too. There are a number of people now who are saying even before Adam and Eve grasped for the fruit, which you know, is sometimes theologized as some sort of arrogant decision, you know, Adam and Eve's pride, what they're wrestling with are these questions that are raised by the serpent. They're being gaslit by the way they're being abused, you know, by the serpent who is raising questions that send them spiraling, like maybe we're not enough. Maybe we're missing something which I call shame.

And so shame proceeds even the grasping of the fruit. And so I think for, for all of us. And you know, I've done some significant work on narcissism. You know, the way we understand that psychologically is that you're not born with narcissism. You don't wake up one day and choose to become a narcissist. It's born out of a way of coping. I'm going to become grandiose. I become the bully because I experienced abuse or I was bullied, or I was small, or I was

made to feel ashamed. And I never ever want to feel that again. >> Loren: Obviously Chuck has some great insights there and I think his insights on Genesis 3 really were quite revolutionary for me. Uh, I'm wondering, how did that strike you? How does that episode strike you? Because I know for me it was just really life giving to think about

that in a different context. To think, you know, it's a way of like reframing it where it's like, you know, I, you know, in, in my tradition, disciples, Christ, the term brokenness is used a lot, which I think really resonates with and I might have mentioned it in that episode. What really resonates with, I think what Chuck is trying to say, or at least as I understand it, what, what comes to mind for you?

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, um, I reached out to you about that episode because I found it quite powerful in a lot of different ways. Again, I just like really appreciate that intersection between the, the um, like scientific research and then the ministry context. I didn't grow up in a sin heavy tradition at all. Like, that was not, um, that kind of like overbearing, judgmental God is not the God that I grew up with. Um, but what I found, what I found really powerful about that particular

Clip. Um, this. This idea that, like, our primary problem is not thinking too highly of ourselves. Our primary problem is shame. I, um, found it really helpful just in terms of how I look differently at people that I perceive to be difficult personalities. You know, like, um, when I get frustrated by. By what I perceive as someone's arrogance or narcissism, um, um, to be able to take a step back and wonder, okay, like, what's the. What's the hurt beneath this? Like, what is the. What's the wound

underneath here? You had another. >> Loren: Sorry, go ahead. >> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, you had. Go ahead. >> Loren: No, I was just gonna say. Let me say briefly, it really goes back to what Kinsie said about kind of being aware of your own stuff so you can be in a space to care for others. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, I think so. There was another one of your guests this season who I believe also talked about Genesis 3. Right. Um, and they had like, this redefinition of

sin. Do you remember who was it? Yolanda Solomon. >> Loren: It could have been. It could have been. Because, uh. Yeah, because I tied. I don't have a clip from. I think it's. Yeah, I think she said it. Yolanda. Hopefully I'm getting that right. >> Martha Tatarnic: Uh, yeah, I think so. >> Loren: Um, I don't have a clip from her episode, but I think I immediately typed when I talked to her to Chuck's

book. I had not yet interviewed Chuck because she also says in her thing, like one of the key questions she reads from Scripture is God saying, where are you? And that's similarly what Chuck wrote about in his book, which I thought was a great, really powerful connection. And again, kind of re. Reframes, uh, in such a powerful way that Genesis 3 story of. Rather than, as I heard it, kind of this guilt and shaming, like, where are you?

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, like the finger wagging God, like, stomping around Eden, like, where are you? >> Loren: And I think fits with like, the story of, like, obviously the prodigal son comes to mind is another story of, um, what, the 1 sheep versus the 99. Finding the 1 sheep. This, ah, imagery of God being a God who is like, where are you humans? Where are you? I'm not mad at you. Maybe I'm disappointed or sad for you, but

where are you? I want to be in relationship with you. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I want you close. Where did you go? I want you close. I mean, as I was listening to Chuck talk, I was just picturing, you know, when sometimes, like, you're in a conversation with a friend and you can just see them go somewhere else, like mentally and like they just, like something has triggered them or like they've just gone somewhere else. And, and it's that like, friendship question.

Like, okay, where did you go? Like, I want you here. I want to, I want to have the. I want to be in this relationship. >> Loren: Yeah, boy, that's good. And I think this, you know, I try not to make this a super theology heavy podcast because there's a million theology heavy podcasts, but it does really highlight the importance. Uh, and I try not to, I try not to be like a theology hater, but I do want to speak to and recognize the limits per

se. I guess it might be a kind of way of saying the limits of some sort of theologies. Certainly when we think about, you know, concepts of like original sin and such, it really does really shape and frame the narrative of the contrast from what you're saying of. To this really kind of how dare you situation. >> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. It really reframes it. I love that as a question that God is continually floating out to us across the pages of scripture, like, okay,

where are you? I want to be close. >> Loren: Well, there's so much good stuff here that I, we're running a time and I don't know where else to go here. Um, I suppose. Let me play this one from Casey Tigret, who, hey, I really, really appreciated his book in this conversation. But uh, I think his point here about. He talked about his family visiting, going, um, blank on it. Um, the famous chap church in St. Louis. >> Martha Tatarnic: Oh yeah, Notre Dame.

>> Loren: Um, yeah, thank you. And this is before the fire. And he mentions like, for him it really brought back great memories. But also he can imagine for folks who have really painful memories how much it reinforce these memories. So let me play this field real quick. >> Casey Tygrett: Uh, in 2012, my family, we went to Paris, France. And this was before the, um, Notre Dame

Cathedral had burned. And so we went to an evening service and there is this children's choir singing and all in French. I had no idea what they were saying, but it was just beautiful. And so sitting there just in, taking in all of this, the sights, the smells, the sounds. And I didn't know what they were saying, but there was this. >> Loren: There. >> Casey Tygrett: It was one of those moments. And I think people listening have had these too, where

you don't know what's going on. You just know that you're like staring through the scrim between heaven and earth, like you're experiencing something divine. So I'm sitting here telling you the story and I can, I feel that, like I Feel that sense of being in that. In that cathedral that now is totally renovated and not understanding any of the words, but just sensing that God was near. And that's a memory that created a story for me that God can be

in these places that we don't understand. However, if somebody else who had a background, let's say they had an experience of abuse within a, uh, formal, like maybe a Roman Catholic setting, and they walked into that same cathedral, their experience of God is going to be very different. So they bring whatever brain, whatever story into that same place. >> Loren: You know, when I'm listening to that, I'm thinking

of my episode with, um. I think it's Grace Ji Sun Kim who again talks about the problem of whiteness in just the ways that especially white Christians have really hurt folks of color. You know, there really is this both and of. And lot of that hand is bad. You know, I think that's what makes the work of pastors and church leaders so difficult, as I'm sure there's leaders of color who are dealing with both sides of that, right? >> Martha Tatarnic: Uh,

yeah, yeah. I think, um, it's like I serve in this historic old church building that's like, full of the history of St. Catherine's and plaques on the wall and stained glass. And we always talk about how it feels like a thin space, um, and that, like, you can feel that generations have been gathering here to pray and sing and serve and all of those things. Like you feel it when you walk in.

But it is really important to be attentive to what Casey names, which is like, that is not everybody's narrative. That's not, um, just a universal experience. And, um. And. And I. Maybe there's a piece too in that that just reminds us to be really intentional about what kind of spaces we are creating and what. How we're. How we are trying to make these places of welcome and inclusion and safety. And I think we fail in lots of ways. And those failures can sometimes be pretty epic.

Um, but it certainly highlights that sacred responsibility for us. >> Loren: Yeah, it makes me think of an altease, an episode I have coming for January or at least 2025, with an author of this book, Disabling Leadership. And him and his, uh, co authors in the book really lean into the importance of churches creating inclusive spaces for folks of, you know, different, uh, abilities.

And, uh, really pinpoint, especially in the book, you know, some of the ways that our churches unintentionally, you know, communicate

unwelcome in little ways. Like in the book they talk about, I guess, I'm stealing the thunder of the podcast, but in the book, they talk about, like, um, getting a, like you, you know, purchasing an old kind of historic church building and being really excited, but then the pastor being real excited, but then getting feedback from those who are in, in a, in a wheelchair or some kind of mobility device. Like, hey, if we're going to keep the sanctuary this way, like, I'm stuck sitting in one

position. You know, I'm stuck sitting at the back of the sanctuary, for instance. Um, um. So it really does take some intentionality and humility. I, I'm thinking to, to continue that work of creating. Being inclusive and welcoming. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, inclusive and welcoming. And, and, um, that does come up with Dr. Dr. Kim. Right. Um, and I think it came up with Jeff Koos as well in terms of what young people are looking for.

Like, that representation piece, um, is very linked to inclusion and welcoming and what kind of stories get embedded in our bodies and souls. And I keep thinking about Dr. Kim's, you know, naming, growing up with this, like, Sunday school picture of a, uh, white Jesus and how much that kind of forms your idea that, like, God isn't like me.

Um, and in, like, how important it is to see women in leadership, how important it is to see, um, people of different races and ethnicities in leadership, that all of that is part of how we, um, how we are intentional about the story that we're shaping. >> Loren: Let me just play this clip here since we're speaking about her from, uh, Dr. Kim. >> Martha Tatarnic: It's because we have a white male God, and that allows white men to be superior over others because they're closer

to God. Like, this reasoning makes absolutely no sense, but that's a reasoning that has been part of our Christian history and it continues to stay with us. A feminist, uh, theologian called Mary Daly said if God is male, then the male is God. It's this intertwining and just kind of this cycle of perpetuation that one thing reinforces the other. So the maleness of God reinforces that, uh, men are better. The whiteness of God then says, hey, white people are better.

So it's a horrible, horrible cycle that continues to be with us in our churches today. >> Loren: Kind of goes back to what I was saying, you know, about theology has implications, right? >> Martha Tatarnic: Yep. Yeah. And as I'm listening to her, you know, there's this, like, constant complaint out there in the, in the air these days about wokeness and like, political correctness and, and getting our language right. And people can be quite disparaging, um, about

uh, that agenda. Right. But what is missed in those disparaging comments is that there are very violent implications to the problems that she's identifying. Right. Like there are, there's violence associated with men being superior over women. There's violence associated with racism, there's viol violence associated with white uh, supremacy. Like these, these aren't just like nice concepts. And let's just get our words correct. This is about like the dignity of people.

>> Loren: Yeah. You know. Yeah. I say it this way again. Theology has implications and I think it's important as much, as much as that can be oversimplified. I don't know if that's the right way of saying it, but can get lost. It's about thinking through the implications of words and language and practices. >> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. >> Loren: And it's a shame that it's misinterpreted or misunderstood perhaps. Let me play this clip because we've been talking

about him. I just uploaded, so hopefully this will work. Um, Jeff Keuss talks about again recommend this because he had data like Martha mentioned earlier in the episode, in this episode about uh, folks, young adults interested in church. But diversity was something he named as important for folks. Let's. The more diverse voices, the more diverse inputs. God is that much bigger homogeneous communities show them a small God, an easily manageable God. Um, and the question for churches is.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Do you want to be following a. >> Loren: Big God or a small God? Yeah, homogeny is a small God and diversity is a big God. It's just that. I'll just leave it there. Recommend uh, that folks because Jeff was very. The data he had was that folks are not antagonistic per se of church. They see the value of church, but they understand what church is and is not. And like you said, homogenous communities are not something they want to be part of.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, he talks about the on ramps and the off ramps to being part of church communities. And yeah, the big encouragement is that young people are spiritual. They're searching, they're uh, they see the value in churches by and large. Um, but the on ramps aren't always clear and the off ramps, um, can uh, they can sort of happen without us knowing what the issue is. That leave uh, somebody feeling disenfranchised from our churches.

>> Loren: Well, many more episodes we could play clips from. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, we could just do this all day. Loren, why don't we just uh. Have you got like another three hours? >> Loren: I wish. I don't know if folks want to listen to us for that long. I mean I would want to listen to us, but you know, obviously biased. So Martha always gives the appeal at the beginning of the episode and, and when I do the intro for her episodes, I repeat her

appeal. Please do listen or obviously please do listen and subscribe. Uh, do share this with a friend, especially if you're a leader and know a church leader. It really does help. Um, as Martha said, like, we really believe in what we're, we're doing here. We believe in these conversations and we want to get them to more people. Yes, because I want to grow the podcast and we want to grow the podcast, but also because we think they're helpful for people.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. >> Loren: Martha, what else? >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, like we want to grow the, that community of companionship and resourcing in of uh, a job that can feel really complex and sometimes lonely and um, full of pressure points. So like, we want this to be a place where not only are we providing a lot of different perspectives as we kind of create crowdsource, this thing that we call the future of the church, um, but also

that like we're hearing from our listeners. I think that's my appeal that I would want to just keep putting out. Like we'd love to hear from the people listening. It's nice to know what resonates with you. It's nice to know what it sparks for you. Um, it's nice to get um, some ideas for future

episodes. So yeah, weigh in and listen and share and let's just continue to really make this a landing point for all of us in our ministry weeks where we know that we can turn and hear some real insight, um, and feel like we have a, ah, safe community where we're figuring this out together. >> Loren: Yeah, and I think it goes back to kind of how you started this

conversation. You know, as you got back in, you were, you know, bombarded with these pressures of budget and you know, ministry day to day and rising costs. Like this is what this podcast, this is why this podcast covers so many of these diverse topics because we understand the diversity and complexity of the job and of church ministry today. That's why we try to bring on such diverse voices and from different perspectives. And I, you know, and again, this is why I say this is like, it's not

just solely meant for church pastors. Like, you know, if you want to share this with some of your church leaders, your lay leaders, like, so to help them get a good perspective on what your job is like and what the task of ministry is like. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I know a lot of like my congregants listen to this and, and it's not even just about recognizing,

like, what my job is. Like, it's about recognizing that we're all, like, we all care about our church together and we all like, whether we're ordained or lay people, like, we're all bringing our gifts to the table in terms of how we shape the church. So, yeah, by no means is it just for people in ordained leadership. Like, it, uh, it's for people who care about the church that we're creating. >> Loren: Yeah. Well, let me just say one last thanks

to you, Martha. Thanks to our listeners. Thanks for. Thanks for guests. You know, this, this show is obviously an interview format and really appreciate all the guests who have come on not just this past season, but over the 200 episodes. So thank you. Thank, uh, you all for being a part of this. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Thank you. >> Loren: Shall we end this with a word of peace? >> Martha Tatarnic: I think we should, Martha. >> Loren: May God's peace be with you.

>> Martha Tatarnic: And also. >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website@future-christian.com and find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the

POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.