Rob Hurkmans on What We Wish We Knew 20 Years Ago

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church into the 21st century. At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith walk boldly into the future. Now here's your host, Loren Richmond Juniore. >> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today, Martha Totarnik welcomes Rob Herkmans to the show.

The Reverend Doctor Robert Herkmans is a senior pastor at Trinity Anglican Church in Streetsville, Mississauga. He is married to Sally, and they have four daughters. Rob recently completed his doctor of ministry degree in leadership development from Tyndale University. Rob was ordained with Martha Titanic 20 years ago in the Diocese of Niagara. One more thing. Please take a moment to leave a review on whatever podcast app you're listening on and share this episode with

a friend. We hope this episode helps you lead your church into the future. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. I am your host for the summer season, Martha Tatarnic. And today I am so pleased to be having a conversation with a longtime friend and colleague of the Reverend Rob Herkman's fun. Rob and I were ordained together 20 years ago this spring, which just seems

impossible to believe. We were ordained on a very, very hot day, uh, in May, with six other people, um, all of the whom have since retired. So the two of us are the ones that are left standing in full time ministry after 20 years. Welcome to the podcast, Rob. >> Rob: Yeah, it's so very nice to be here and to have a conversation with you, and, yeah, time flies. Time flies. >> Martha Tatarnic: We haven't aged a bit, but, you know, somehow time March is on.

>> Rob: Well, uh, we did pull out that old newspaper clipping from the Niagara Anglican that had all of our faces, uh, that when they were announcing we were getting ordained. And I think, uh. I think there's been a bit of aging when I looked at that. Yeah. >> Martha Tatarnic: Gosh, this conversation, uh, is off to a poor start. >> Rob: I'm speaking of myself more than. >> Martha Tatarnic: No, no. I mean, uh, we wear our aging with pride, right?

Because it comes with wisdom and experience and insight. >> Rob: That's right. >> Paul: That's right. >> Rob: Yes. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I, uh, as I said, know you quite well from, um, working together and being in ministry over the years. But, of course, our audience for future Christian doesn't really know you. So let's start with some opening questions, and we can just give people a little bit of background into who you

are. Rob, um, why don't you start by telling us a little bit about the faith context in which you were raised. >> Rob: Yeah, so, I mean, both you and I, Martha served, um, in the diocese of Niagara. And, uh, I grew up, um, as a farm boy. My dad was a dairy farmer in a small community near Cayuga, Ontario. We attended the local anglican church for all my life, along with my three siblings and my parents, uh, kind of dragged kicking and screaming to church most

Sundays. Um, there was not a lot to do for, uh, for kids at that church. Sometimes they had a Sunday school program, other times not. Um. But anyways, uh, whether we were downstairs in Sunday school or flipping through the BCP with my parents in the pews on a Sunday morning, that's kind of where, uh, my upbringing was, uh, as far as, uh, a faith community, we were a family of. Of

faith. Um, I wouldn't say that we. My parents had like a dynamic, you know, vibrant kind of expression of faith, but they were good, solid Anglicans and, ah, you know, we said grace at supper and that kind of. That kind of stuff. So, um, yeah, that's kind of where it all started. And, um, since then, I served and lived in the diocese Niagara for many, uh, years. But just in the last five or six years of, uh, moved to the diocese of Toronto, where I'm serving now.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, you're not too far down the road. Um, in Ontario, but different leadership and different, uh, geographical part of the church. >> Rob: Yeah. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Okay, so, um, tell us a little bit about your calling. How did it go from being dragged to kicking and screaming to Sunday school or not, to, um, being somebody who's been in ministry for the past 20 years?

>> Rob: Yeah. Um, I think my passions, when I was, let's say, kind of in high school, the passions that really started to grow in me were, um, around things like leadership. Um, I got involved in student leadership in the school, um, drama, actually. I really loved, uh, drama and participating in drama productions and stuff like that. So, uh, and actually there was this part of me that also wanted to, uh, be a teacher. And, um, so I. All that kind of was there in

me. Um, in, you know, I would say even as a child, those kind of things were in me from the very beginning. Uh, for some reason, though, I ended up doing like a five year degree in biochemistry at the University of Wyoming. >> Martha Tatarnic: That's all right. >> Rob: Yeah. Yeah. And it. So it didn't. It didn't really seem to fit any of those

passions. Um. Uh, and yet, um, when I was at university, some important things kind of happened, actually, even when I was in late high school, God did something I think really special in my, my friendship group. Um, I had about four or five guys who were really close friends. And one of these guys went off to a summer camp one summer, uh, and maybe grade eleven, grade, uh, twelve, and, uh, came back and was completely fired up for

Jesus. And he, like me, like all of us, had been going to church with our families, uh, our whole lives to that point. But now he had come back, uh, with a totally different temperature and a totally different passion, um, for his faith, um, and so that actually kind of led to lots of these conversations. I can remember in the cafeteria, I can remember in the school library, uh, on our spares, we would have our bibles out and

it felt like dominoes in a way. It felt like then another one of my friends kind of just really turned, uh, a corner and made that faith their own. And then one after another, it seemed to be just a time when God in that group of friends that I was part of, was really helping us take all these seeds that maybe our parents had planted by, uh, taking us to church all those years. They kind of were activated and started growing and we started taking a bit more ownership of our own

faith journey. So that was a very pivotal time because then I, you know, we, I can remember, like in that little church that I grew up in now, you know, there was five or ten of us in the basement just on our, by our own volition with a guitar, trying to like, sing some songs and trying to figure this thing out kind of on our own. So pretty, pretty, um, interesting times. Went off to university. Got connected with some campus ministries at that point. Um, things like, uh,

it was called campus crusade for Christ at the time. Now it's called, uh, power to change. Um, university, ah, Bible fellowship was another one. I got connected with, um, and started attending a church. It was like a baptist church plant, uh, that was just off campus. They would send a bus, you could hop on the bus, you could go to church. Loved the teaching there, loved the informality. Um, this, uh, pastor was amazing. I

still remember him to this day. That church went on to grow and became, uh, Creekside church, which is now in north Waterloo. But this was back when it was meeting in the YMCA, uh, in Kitchener. And, uh, that was just. I can remember they would sell tapes after the service of his teaching. And I would like, every Sunday was there, I would buy like one or two or three of Ken, uh, Taylor's tapes and I would take him home, listen to him. I just thought he was an amazing, amazing

teacher. And again, now I think, uh, some of that passion for, like, drama and being in front of people and speaking and leading and teaching. I started to say, you know, maybe that is kind of how God wired me. Maybe I could do something like that. Maybe. Maybe. Um, so anyways, a long story short, I ended up, uh, going to teachers college, becoming a

teacher for a couple years. Uh, and then after I was married, um, uh, just, you know, discerning things with my wife, we made the decision that, yeah, we were being called to, uh, at least explore

the idea of pursuing ordained ministry. Um, it's interesting, Martha, but I did not have a passion for the anglican church at that point, really. I'd been raised. The most vibrant churches I've been part of were not anglican. They were like, again, like Baptist, kind of free flowing, just low, low church stuff. Uh, I remember I told my parents I want to become a minister or whatever, and they were like, that's amazing. And I said, but I'm not interested in the

anglican church. And they were like, what? But, um, then we actually ended up, um, doing a little tour of Wycliffe College. And that did change my thinking, I would have to say. I would say, okay, maybe there's a way to be anglican and still be able to exercise the gifts that I feel God's given me and kind of pursue the passions and interests that I have. Um, so that led to me going to Wycliffe

College. And, uh, yeah, I can't remember exactly what the question was, but that's kind of how I ended up slowly over time, through some various experiences, kind of feeling ultimately called to ministry. >> Martha Tatarnic: Wow, that's amazing. I want to put a pin in that piece around, uh, you know, anglican and then your experience of, um, vibrant, flourishing churches and other denominations, because I do want to come back to that

piece. I think that's an interesting part of, um, how you've been a blessing to the anglican church, frankly. Uh, and why I've really valued our, um, collegial relationship over the years. So definitely want to follow up on that. Um, it's so interesting hearing your story because, like, there's so many components that are so similar to mine and some parts that are really different. Like, I also grew up in a very small, um, rural anglican church, and, um, kind of went kicking

and screaming. I mean, I didn't really go kicking and screaming because I just wanted to make my parents happy, but, like, I wasn't happy going. And I think that there is a, uh. For those of us who are raised in the church, I think most of us have a time, um, somewhere in our teens, maybe early twenties, where there's this conversion process we have to go through as well in terms of, um, laying claim to the

faith for ourselves. I would say my experience of that time was quite solitary because I was really the only young person in my church at that time. And how cool for you that it was sparked by this group of friends. >> Rob: That you had when you went through that process and kind of made this faith your own. Was it strictly within the anglican tradition or did you two need to, um, experience faith in another context or something in order to kind of have it really?

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. So that's the other difference between our journeys is, like, the anglican church was really my formation ground through and through. And I say all the time, like, I do feel like that particular combination of anglican charisms is what allows me to be a follower of Jesus, whereas I feel like, um, you know, you kind of bring these other charisms into the anglican tradition in a really neat way. So. >> Rob: So you don't feel attention, um, between. Because I

still feel attention even to this day. I think I felt attention during that kind of coming to faith moment about, oh, uh, I don't really feel like I fit here. This is kind of more. And that was, like, a tough tension to navigate. I still feel like in my ministry today, that tension has not gone away. I still struggle between the traditional expression of our church and where I am right now, which is very kind of. >> Martha Tatarnic: Well, let's come back to that, because I really want

to dig into that a little bit. And just as a short answer to your question, no, I don't really. I feel lots of tension about life in the church in lots of ways. But for me, like, the particular, um, expression of anglicanism definitely works for me as a follower of Jesus. So why don't you just share with our listeners a little bit about where you serve right now? Because it is. You've been there a couple of years and it is a bit of a unique expression in the anglican church.

>> Rob: Yeah. So after going through three or four traditional church settings, did my curacy at St. Luke's in Burlington, I served at a small church in port Colborne, Ontario, and then, uh, downtown at St. Paul's for a couple years. Now I find myself for America. Yeah, St. Paul's Bloor street. Yep. Um, anyways, now I'm.

I've hung up the robes, I have taken, uh, off the collar, I've taken off the stole in the cassock and surplus, and now I find myself at a church called Trinity Streetsville, which, um, they, ah, years ago they even took the word Anglican out of. Off the sign out front. So anyone who's driving by this place would not say, oh, there's the local anglican church. It's kind of. It's a newer building. It's definitely a, ah, more. I don't know what to say, almost pentecostal kind of

feeling. Uh, worship service. The. There's. The architecture doesn't, at least inside, doesn't resemble a typical anglican church. So, ah, it's a very different form of anglican church. I would even dare say that. I don't know that there's really many anglican churches in the country that look and worship on a Sunday morning like Trinity Streetsville does. I mean, you would probably, um, have a perspective.

>> Martha Tatarnic: No, I think it's pretty unique, honestly. And our country anyway, like, it definitely has a very. I think that there are churches that have adopted some of those components, um, in our anglican tradition. But I think, ah, Trinity's kind of led the way for a different expression of anglicanism. >> Rob: Yeah, there's quite a story, I think, to how they got here. But I. They. I think they lean here. We lean into, you know, using technology a lot, you know, uh,

um, even on a Sunday morning, of course, there's. The instrumentation is. Is more like a worship band than a. Than, you know, organ and choir robes and all that kind of thing. And, you know, they use light a lot. So rather than changing a lot of decorations, uh, in the church, seasonally, it's more like just changing the lighting to kind of produce different colors and effects and feels depending on the season. So, yeah, it's a different place. I actually

really love it. Um, but I'm also aware that I'm in a kind of a different place than some of my anglican colleagues. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, just rounding out our opening questions, um, and then we'll dig into some of these things in a little bit more detail. Um, is there a spiritual practice, rob, that you're finding particularly meaningful right now? >> Rob: Um, about a year and a half ago, both my wife and I joined this community. Um, it, uh, goes by the name of

habitus. Um. Uh, it's a community of, uh, spiritual practice, uh, where basically you adopt a, uh, rule of life and try to live according to that rule, uh, with both kind of, uh, individual, kind of personal, um, spiritual practices as well as they put you into a triad, what they call, like, so a group of three, uh, which weekly you are supposed to gather and meet with your

triad for, you know, fellowship and encouragement. And then monthly they have, um, what they call a commons gathering, which they'll have some teaching on spiritual practice, or they're bringing a speaker. Um, so we've been at this now for over a year, and I am, um. I mean, it's challenging, for sure to. And, you know, you don't. You're often not practicing this rule as well as you would like to be practicing

it. But, um, uh, I think the most beneficial part of that has been the triad, actually, for me, that I get to meet with these two other guys every week. And we talk about life, but we also talk about our spiritual life and how it's going as we try to live out this rule. So I'd actually encourage people to check it out. It's the guys. The guy who created is named Phil renders, and he is a CRC pastor in Oakville. And, um, he's kind of just trying to get this

idea, this movement off the ground. But yeah, he's got a pretty good website. Um, it's called habitus. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I was wondering whether I could get him on the podcast. That sounds like it could be an interesting thing to share with our listeners. >> Rob: He's an amazing thinker and speaker one.

>> Martha Tatarnic: All right, well, maybe I can get some follow up contact information from you, because it does sound like a really powerful initiative in those different components, the rule of life and the community that's holding you to it. Okay, well, um, let's delve in a little bit more. Um, there are a number of reasons why I wanted to have you on the podcast, Rob.

Um, I've been thinking a lot since, um, our 20th anniversary of ordination this past spring about, um, that kind of midpoint in ministry for those of us who, uh, have that particular blessing of getting to be, um, like, have a lifelong career

in ministry. Um, I know you said that you taught for a couple of years, but by and large, we both came into ministry, um, like pretty green and young, um, and we have that significant, ah, chunk of experience now under our belts, and we also have God, ah, willing, a significant Runway of ministry still in front of

us. Um, so I thought it would be just interesting in general, to talk about that midpoint, but also specifically, I wanted to talk to you because you are a voice in the church, um, for whom I've always had the utmost respect and admiration. And you've always been someone that, uh, that I walk away from our conversations and think, oh, well, I like that. Gives me a different way of seeing things, or I hadn't thought of that. Um, and, uh, I think that, um, you just bring so

many gifts to ministry. So let's talk first about that midpoint in ministry, and maybe we can look back a little bit together. Um, what has been different about the life of ministry from what you expected or prepared for? >> Rob: Yeah. Thank you for those words, Martha. That's very kind. I, um, think that one of the things that I learned pretty quickly as I moved from being ordained into actual ministry is that I needed to learn to slow down,

uh, to slow. And I'm not even talking about just, like, my pace of life. I, uh, mean, like, slow down in my expectations about how to bring about change in a church or how to, um, experiment with things. Uh, according to the Clifton strength finder personality test or whatever, my top two strengths are ideation, which means I'm an idea person, and activator, which means I like to start things, or I like to try things. So, um, I think that's actually pretty, uh, true, actually, if I reflect on

my life. But I think the downside is that when I would have, especially at the beginning, when I came into a situation, I was like, oh, I have an idea. Let's try this. And. And I would try to get this idea off the ground. I tried to get that idea off the ground. And, um, and then many times, um, you know, I did do that, and I would push to try to have something happen,

and it would happen. And I think my poor congregation kind of went along with it and, like, was dragged this way and that, uh, as the new minister, you know, tried various things. But I think that the learning that eventually came to me by God's grace, is that, uh, if I. Unless I want to be the only one running out there with an idea, I got to slow down and, um, start to appreciate that, um, uh, these kind of things change takes time. And to kind of ram it down people's throats, uh,

it doesn't work. I know these things seem. They seem obvious to me now, as I say it, but I think at the time, I probably overwhelmed people, uh, with ideas. Um, and I must say, some of those ideas actually, I think, worked out and were successful. Many did not. Uh, but I think the point is, I didn't bring anybody with interesting. Yeah, I just. I just kind of raced ahead. And that actually can become a recipe for burnout,

because if you got an idea and you say, let's go, and you run ahead and nobody's with you, then who's carrying it? Well, you are. And now it's up to you to kind of keep carrying it. And if you have lots of ideas, then pretty soon you're carrying a whole bunch of things. And, um. And that, I think, is a recipe for burning yourself out. So, um. So that was one learning, but, uh, I had another, but I don't know if you have any thoughts on. On that.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I really relate to that. I think the other piece about burnout in all of that is that, um. Like, I really had to learn, um, how to not be just so personally invested in my ideas all by myself, too, because then it hurt when. When other people had ways of making those ideas better, because it felt like I was just way too territorial about my ideas. I think earlier on, uh. And I think that's another component of running out in front without

other people. With you. >> Rob: Yeah. Ah, yeah. And I think related to that for me was, um. I read a lot of the church growth kind of books and the literature that was out there right around the time when I was in seminary. I can still remember a, uh, reading in the reading room at Wycliffe College, uh, Rick Warren's purpose driven church. Not purpose driven light, not. Not purpose driven life, but purpose driven church, which was his, like, first book. And I remember reading it and

highlighting. And I have never highlighted a book so much in my life. I was like, yes, yes, yes. Absolutely, yes. I still remember, like, I still to this day, I remember, like, the concentric circles of, like, you've got the community and you've got the crowd and the congregation and the core and the committed and. And the baseball diamond where, you know, it was like, class 101 and class 201, class 301.

He had just organized it in such a beautiful way, which I'm certain, made sense for his context and for the size of his church. And, uh, obviously, I think, was a very successful model for what he was trying to do. I'm sure lots of lives were changed with it, but, um, that's one example. But I think there was lots of, um, material like that that I grabbed onto initially and said, oh, this will work, or this will

work. And I really wanted to kind of implement, and it kind of goes along with my desire to kind of try a new idea and to kind of race out in front of. But it's a little different. I think what I didn't appreciate was an obviously huge difference in context, um, between where this literature was coming from, you know, mega churches in the United States, versus where I was, which was like a yemenite, a pastoral sized

church in port Colburn. So, um, that was a learning for me, I think it's, again, it's still one of those struggles, I think, because, um, it's not to say that there isn't stuff to be learned from that, and it's not to say that, oh, you could use that idea and, uh, that would be really helpful for helping people grow in their faith. So it's not like just a complete, uh, either, Orlando. But it certainly is something that I have had to learn more now is to say, okay, what is called for

in this context in this place. Um, and, uh, you know, you can't just lift these ideas from one place and plunk them down in another and expect that they're going to. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, no, for sure. And, you know, I think the other thing, too is that, um, like, there is a component of ministry that is about

like, throwing noodles at the wall and seeing what sticks. Like, you do have to be willing to try some things and to have some stuff work and some things not work, um, and then try some more things. And I relate to that sense of how those ideas ideally become more collaborative as we get, um, collaborative and contextual as we get further along in ministry. That's certainly being my

experience. I think, um, one of the conversations that clergy often like to reflect on is gaps in our ministry training, like what we didn't learn at seminary that, uh, we just weren't prepared for when we actually got out into our churches. Do you think that there's one or two things that you would have wanted included in your ministry training back in the day? >> Rob: I mean, the only thing that really came to mind was, first of all, I actually thought, um, my time in seminary was

pretty well rounded. And, you know, there was obviously the core courses one had to take. But in some of the elective courses, you were able to, you know, choose stuff that was more in, uh, line with your passions. But I think there was maybe the overarching desire was to create clergy that could bring stability to churches, like bring to be a stabilizing leader. Um. Uh, I, uh, think that there was. Well, yeah, I can still remember Bishop Ralph, um, who ordained both of

us. Um, I remember, I think when I was going out to my first parish, his advice to me, I still remember, was he said, rob, just love them. Just love them. Just at that time, these were two churches who had just amalgamated, and there was a lot of potential hurt. And his advice is they just need stability. They just need someone to kind of help, uh, them heal and just be. So just go in and love them. And that's great advice. Um, I'm not faulting.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, like love is. I think that's, you know, central to what we're about. >> Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so, um. And yet at the same time, uh, I think we know in the maybe, and maybe it was because we were just at that tipping point in the life of the church 20 years ago where we're starting to realize that, you know what? Um, we actually also need leaders who can change things or can, uh,

lead congregations through change. And if our training is so kind of pastoral, which it needs to be, and so focused on being a stabilizing leader, which many, then actually, how do we destabilize a congregation in a way such that they can actually start to think about new possibilities? And I think some of the literature would say that that's how change happens in churches is that a leader actually has to come in.

And I mean, the best leaders probably balance this perfectly, but on the one hand they're caring for these people, but on the other hand, there's a challenging presence, like a presence that is trying to destabilize or trying to point out that, um, this isn't working or asking really tough questions and then kind of letting the community try to figure out, well, how do we come

up with solutions to that, you know? So, um, anyways, I think that was, that might be the only thing I would say about our training, is that, um, perhaps they needed to equip us a little more on how to lead change, um, in what we're changing times. >> Martha Tatarnic: Well, and that's kind of the fundamental reality. Right. Is that there's a dishonesty in trying to be a stabilizing presence because like we're just not in a stable time. Like, the church is not a stable institution in

a stable world at this moment. So, um, yeah, I think that uh, being an effective change maker is a pretty important part of our job. >> Rob: Yeah. Uh, because, uh, it's out of instability where when you're knocked off balance, that's when innovation happens. That's kind of when novelty or not in the bad sense, but new ideas get generated when things are a little off balance and you're like, oh gosh, what are we going to do here? So, um, yeah, learning how to

do that, though, is definitely a skill. Um, you don't just go in and blow a place up and say, I did my job here, I destabilized. Right? No, it's like, it's. No, you're a, in fact, I've heard an expression called a stable rupting leader. So it's like uh, you're stabilizing, but you're also disrupting at the same time. You're a stable rotor. That's kind of the goal. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, no, that's really good.

Okay, so let's, um, go back to that pin that we put into your background, uh, and where you serve now in ministry, and, uh, that kind of conflict or sense of tension that you feel with our anglican tradition. Um, because that is one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on the pod. Um, because I really admire, um, how you kind of negotiate that balance. I don't think that this label, um, is all that descriptive, but you're sort of an evangelical

Anglican. And, um, again, I don't love it because I think we're all supposed to be evangelical. Um, but what I mean by that is to say that, um, you bring a real confessional element to, uh, the anglican tradition. Um, you always lead with absolute clarity about, uh, Jesus being at the center of everything that we do.

I think you have a real gift for christian apologetics, and, um, you've also excelled at leading congregations that don't get super hung up in, um, following all of the traditions of our church, whether it's different musical styles or, um, leaving the vestments at the door or, um, some of the other things that you noted about your current context. So, um, there aren't a lot of churches like the

one that, ah, you're at now. And I think that, um, your voice is somewhat unique in our anglican church in Canada. So can you just say a little bit more about that tension as well as, um, how you've, like, managed to make that tension work for the past 20 years?

>> Rob: Yeah. So this might not be the answer that you are looking for. Expecting, not expecting, but, um, I actually don't feel that tension at all. And I have to say, um, you know, I have never felt like any, what, bishop or other clergy have been, like, watching me, um, making sure that they agree with what I'm saying or agree with what we're doing as a church. I've never felt anything but like, hey, we actually appreciate the

diversity of. Of different ways of being a Christian in the ecosystem that is our diocese. Um, it actually makes me wonder if there isn't, like, um. I don't know, some. You know, I know there's been, you know, maybe there's been changes over these last 20 years that some evangelicals would say, I. You know, I don't agree with that change, or I don't agree with that move that's being made by our leadership. Or by our diocese. And then their next thought is, oh, therefore I cannot possibly operate

in this space, right. Uh, I can no longer lead. Right. Because they've gone and done this or they've gone and said that, or they've published this or whatever. And, uh, I would say, yeah, maybe I also didn't agree over the last two decades with every decision that was made by our bishops and leaders. But it never made me feel like, now I don't fit here or now I can't keep preaching this way,

or I can't keep leading this way. And so I often wonder if there isn't, like in some people and this is maybe a bad, like some kind of like a. Like a martyr complex or something like. Like that they. They're looking for that ditch to die in and, um. That they actually make. I've. I mean, I've always had great relationships with my bishops, um. Um. And I've. So I actually have a hard time relating to the person who would say, I'm an, ah, evangelical.

And, uh, I find it really hard to operate in this, you know, culture we have in the church. I've just never felt that, uh. I don't know if that makes any sense to you, but, um. It's just not been. >> Martha Tatarnic: No, I really appreciate that answer. I think thats really, um, insightful. You did name some sense of tension at the beginning of our conversation. Was that kind of more around the liturgical practices of the church? Is that kind of where you feel more of a, uh, rub?

>> Rob: Yeah, the tension would. That tension isnt theological? I mean, the liturgy of the church is, I think, deeply theologically rich. And I love it in many ways, very personally, as a devotional tool, it's amazing. So the tension I have felt there has not been about this, uh, isn't a case of my evangelical identity. It's been more about how are we. What kind of a. What kind of a church are we inviting people into? Are we stuck in the

past in our forms and rituals and liturgies? And then in a way, we're not able to really do cross cultural mission with people because we're really asking them, hey, come and. Come into this world we've created and become like us. So that's more. But that's not about the theology of evangelicalism. It's more about. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I kind of. You asked me at the outset of our conversation

whether I feel some of that tension. And I think for me, um, that like, our anglican parameters have been a source of creativity for me, um, like I find that sort of having these forms and then being able to play within them and imagine how music can be different or our setting can be different, or, um, our imagery can be different within the liturgical parameters. I have found that very, uh, creatively rich over the years, and I'm guessing you must have some of that

experience as well. Just given your track record in ministry. You have done really creative things within anglican parameters over the years. Like, is that a component of it, too? >> Rob: Looking back, I do not feel like I have done much creative in that

regard. Uh, I think most of the creative things that I have done have been, uh, outside of the Sunday morning experience, or it's been a, uh, creative project in the community, or, uh, um, maybe a fresh expression of church or creative way of organizing your staff team or something like that. But looking back, I don't feel like I was creative in the liturgy very much. I basically. That wasn't my gift for one to come up with creative forms of liturgy. Um. Uh, I think what is the tension

is, okay. Like, right now, I find myself in a place that is so different that it's almost like. And I don't want this to sound the wrong way, but I almost feel like scales have fallen off my eyes. And that sounds horrible because it makes anyone who's still doing a liturgical, uh, kind of form of anglicanism, which just what everybody is, it makes the sound lesser than. That's not what I'm saying at all. But I'm actually saying that I don't know that I can go back

at this point. I feel like I've gotten to this place and experienced a, uh, way of doing church and of living out our anglican faith, which seems to be accepted by our diocese and even, you know, in some ways protected. Um, and I. It works. I think it does work. I think it makes sense. And I. I really believe that. I mean, this is missions. This is like missionary work 101,

right? The idea is when you're trying to reach people of a different culture or different language or different customs, you don't expect them to come to you, and you don't expect them to do the cross cultural work. You don't expect them to say, uh, let me learn your language, let me learn this calendar, let me learn what these symbols, investments, and let me learn what these hymns and colics.

I'm probably going overboard here, but there's a sense, I think, still within anglicanism, even the way that I operated for most of my ministry career, where people were walking into a place and there are. There's just so many triggers and barriers in there that I know that there's many. There's some people who would say, oh, isn't that beautiful? It's so rich, it's so deep. This is what I've been looking for my whole life. And there will always be some people like that.

And there will always be Anglicans that say, the young people love the liturgy. The millennials are coming back to the liturgy. You know, the next generation is hungry for liturgy. And there are some, there's no doubt, but I think they're overstating their case. I just don't think that's where most people are. I think most people do find when they walk into our churches, there's a lot of stuff there. It's foreign. And rather, missionary work is what you do.

You say, we're going to learn your language, we're going to learn your cousins, we're going to learn to the styles and the cultural aspects of who you are, and then we're going to find a way to incarnate the gospel, or kind of communicate the gospel in a language and in a way that is going to make sense for you, is going to help you be able to understand this. And, um, I feel like what we're doing here right now is more of an expression of that than my previous ministry. Personally speaking,

though, I just have to state this. I find the liturgy. I mean, my BCP sitting right here, I find the liturgy deeply rich and formative to this day. Uh, so it's not a personal like or dislike. Uh, I find it deeply rich, but I'm just not certain how it fits in with, um, those who are seeking the church in the first place.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, and I think that the. The ministry context in which you serve is such an amazing example of God kind of gathering up a lot of the threads of your life into, um, a ministry context for which you are just extremely well suited. I think, um, when you were announced as the new lead pastor of Streetsville, like, everybody went, yeah, that makes sense. Like, Rob should be there. Right? Like, you're doing. Like, God is doing a really great thing in you, in that church.

>> Rob: Yeah. And I am definitely, though, the recipient of, I think, other people's hard work in that regard. Like, I was talking about disruptive leadership. Right. Um, so I think everybody in Canada and the anglican church knows that, you know, 25 years ago, Harold Percy was that kind of disruptive, stabilizing, uh, disruptive leader that came in and with the support of his bishop, really, uh, was able to do

something very different. And it wasn't easy, and there certainly were people who didn't like it and all that, but, um, um, you know, I don't know if I even have, like, the, the courage to do half the things that he did. Um, um, I'm not sure that certain times call for it, frankly, but, um. Um. But, yeah, it's. I don't for a second. I've only been here three and a half years.

The, the Trinity Streetsville has, you know, what it is has very little to do with me, uh, at this point, I. I'm actually kind of just being evangelized by it, in a sense, as I survive. >> Martha Tatarnic: That's a good example of God's grace as well. Absolutely. Um, so, like, 20 years in, uh, as we're just kind of reflecting on the present at the moment, like, how do you stay fresh in ministry? What keeps you renewed? Hopefully, um, uh, what gets you up each day?

>> Rob: Um, I still do love getting up to come to work every day. I really, really do. Um, I think part of what makes that happen for me is I really love the people that I work with. Um, I love the staff team that we've, we've built here at Trinity. I think they're all, like, such talented people who bring gifts that I just don't have at all. I mean, going back to how I started, you know, many of us in our first church, we were the ones who kind of knew

the most about everything. We knew the most about tech, we knew the most about music. We knew the most about, you know, preaching. We knew the most about pastoral care. We knew the most about the finances, whatever. Right. I, uh, guess I'm just. Right now I'm in a situation where I'm just deeply, deeply aware that everybody around me is so extraordinarily talented at their jobs that, um, my role as a leader now is something totally, totally different.

So I think that is one of the things that energizes me the most, is actually coming in and getting to work alongside these folks. Um, if I'm honest. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Uh, I can definitely co sign that. I think one of the most exciting things in ministry is, like, the, uh, uh, many gifts, one spirit. Right? Like, uh, you really do have this incredible opportunity to behold, um, the gifts of God working in other people, and, um, to see how that. How that makes amazing things happen.

>> Rob: Yeah. So you asked the question, you know, what kind of things sustained me or sustained me in ministry? And I have to say that when I first got here to trinity, one of the big gifts that was given to me is that our bishop set us up with a coach. Uh, and this coach met with us for an hour every week. And my coach that lasted for two years.

And I can just, um, if I stop and I think of the sheer amount of time I spent talking to that person about what I was going through and what I was learning and what I was struggling with, what was going good, what was not going not so good. Um, that was like a huge piece of, I think, helping, uh, me get off to a great start here at trinity. Ah. Um, it was. It was a real gift. I actually wanted to get it to keep on going, but I think two years was the most they were willing to. To pay for.

But, uh, I was just recently thinking I should again enlist the help of a coach, because it's just so good to have somebody who's, like, maybe just a step or two removed from your ministry situation who can kind of look at it with fresh eyes, look at it another perspective. Um, she was an amazing coach because over those two years, she got to know all the players, all the people, she got to know all the staff and what was going on.

And then every week she would say, how did this go and how did that go and how is so and so doing? And on and on like that. So that I think having that person in your life to. To check in with you regularly is key, uh, for going strong in this work we do. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And, you know, I've had those coaching relationships at a couple of key junctures, like in

starting a new ministry. But I also had a coach at a really, like, critical juncture when I'd been here at St. George's for quite a while. And that was incredibly helpful, too, just in terms of getting out of any ruts that I was sort of finding myself in and just. Yeah. Like, rethinking the dynamics and the organization and that kind of thing. I would highly recommend those coaching relationships

as well. When we got, uh, together with, um, the parts of our coordination cohort that we were able to round up to have a little anniversary celebration in the spring, I was really interested, uh, to hear your thoughts about the future of the church and, um, and what kind of leadership model is needed for the church today. Um, you said to our group that your picture about that leadership model has really shifted in the last

number of years. Um, based on that 20 years of experience, can you share with our, uh, audience today just a little bit about that shifting picture? >> Rob: Yeah, I think if I remember when we spoke, I told you that when we first began this life of the priesthood and in church ministry. The leadership model that really stuck in my mind and that I kind of operated from for a long time was, uh, the idea of the visionary leader. I think that's maybe what you. Yeah.

And, um, at least at the time when I thought of visionary leader or when I read books on visionary leadership, it was this idea that there was, um, a certain kind of skill that a leader could develop that would allow them to see what the future held to kind of be the. The lead sled dog, uh, in the pack of dogs. And you had the best view. You could see ahead better than other people behind you could see. And so. And so as a visionary leader, you kind of saw the future and you called people to

follow me. Uh, you know, I know where I'm going. This, uh, is where. And you. So you cast a picture of the future, cast your vision and communicate your vision, and then get people to follow you into that vision. And, um, I should say I still do think we need visionary leaders. Uh, it's not like that way of leading is completely

obsolete. But I, uh, think that now I realize that most of the problems and challenges that the church faces are so complex and so multifaceted that no one person could possibly have the ability or the vision or the skills or the know how to be able to say, hey, follow me. I have this privileged view of where we go from here. Just kind of like, uh, trust me and come along.

And, uh, so I think that now I have kind of moved in my own thinking from this idea of a visionary leader to more of a collaborative, uh, model of leadership. On my best days, I try to make sure that I'm involving as many people as possible in leadership decisions. Uh, I did some doctoral work just recently, and one of the kind of names I gave to this way of, uh, leading was shared leadership. Kind of trying to, uh, invite others into leadership. Um,

and there's fake ways of doing this sometimes. I mean, you can be like the, uh, oh, I'm sharing leadership, but really all you're doing is you're just being a backseat driver, right? You're just saying like, hey, turn here or slow down, you're going too fast. And so I think I've made some of those mistakes, too, where I'm trying to empower people to lead. Um, uh, but I'm not really doing that. I'm kind of, like, disempowering them and I'm disabling them or

directing them. And that's. That's not great. Um, so, but at its best, it's. It's really, um. I don't know, just leading as a community, leading as a team in a collaborative way, I think, is the. Is the only way we can really kind of m sort through some of the problems that we're. We're facing these days. That. So that's the first thing I would say, that one of the big shifts. I mean, you probably noticed that, too.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, absolutely. I, uh, remember you're saying at lunch that the smartest person in the room is the room, and, boy, that's a good place to get to, I think. And it's not, like, unrelated to where we started off in terms

of learning to slow down. I think, um, doing that deep listening, that, uh, that discernment around, um, context and collaboration in terms of how we figure out next steps going forward, I think that those are all, um, very much related to what you're saying about that shifting leadership model. >> Rob: Yeah. And I would add to that

as I think about how do we expand leadership. I think we also have to have a conversation about lay leadership, um, because to me, the future of the church has, uh, got to be very heavily weighted

toward lay leadership. Um, I just think with the decline that we're all witnessing in the anchor Church of Canada and also realizing that, my goodness, the gifts we need to do, the work we need to do in the setting that we're in are nothing gifts that most of us are learning in seminary, they're not the, like we have to tap into. Just, I think, way more, uh, gifts and talents than clergy can generally bring to the table.

So I think as we extend leadership, as we bring others into leadership, I think we have to be thinking, you know, not just clerical leadership, but beyond that. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And, I mean, I think that that is, um, a, uh, theology of the body of Christ and of the church that has a lot more, um, scriptural weight to back it up than this notion that it's just one person out in front with a collar on who has the relevant gifts to lead

a church. Even the word lay leadership kind of suggests that, like. Like a layperson suggests that people don't have the expertise that we have. Right. Like, we're the ones with the training, and they're lay people without the expertise. But, like, that's a false way of defining it, too. Right. Like, we need all of the various components of expertise in order to be the church and in order to serve.

>> Rob: Yeah. There would have been a time, not long before I got here, there were three clergy here, and. And yeah. There was other people on the staff team who were not ordained, but, uh, as it stands right now, I'm the only ordained person on the, on the team, which does have some drawbacks from time to time, I will say.

But, uh, I think that the benefits outweigh those drawbacks because we've been able to kind of hire instead, uh, people with just way different kind of talents than clergy would bring. Mhm. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Really fill out the skill sets and, um, navigate the uncertain waters. >> Rob: Yeah, it's so, um, sometimes I think we need to think when we are building a team, not just skills, but

also, like, personality as well. And, like, I remember we did this, like, assessment thing with our team a couple years ago where we tried to, again, you know, figure out where our. Our strengths and our personalities landed us. And this may not be incredibly surprising to you, but I was, like, very, very low when it came to empathy. Uh, I don't know, I always thought I was, like, empathetic or whatever, but, you know, I. You know, we.

We learned a lot about pastoral care and how to listen and engage people in crisis moments with empathy. But anyways, that's just not my natural thing. But our worship leader, Libby, her, like, number one thing was empathy. Like, she. She was. It was literally, like, opposite ends of the spectrum, and it made me think, like, yeah, so it's. It's not just that she has a different skill set than I

do, which she does. Right. She's musical in a way that I'll never be, and I. But she also has gifts and a personality type that is very different than mine. So that when we sit around a table and we're thinking through things together, um, it's good that she's just built differently that way. >> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Those complimentary. Complimentary gifts, complimentary personalities. That's amazing. Yeah.

Well, thank you, Rob, for. I, um, know that we could probably just talk for a couple more hours about all of the things that, um, we wish we had known 20 years ago and the things that we've learned along the way. But, uh, why don't we take a pause right now and we can come back for a couple of rapid fire closing questions, um, and then we'll go from there. >> Rob: Okay, sounds good. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome back to the Future Christian podcast.

And, uh, we are going to wrap up today's episode with Rob Herkmans with a couple of rapid fire questions. Rob, are you ready? >> Rob: Let's do it. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, if you could be pope for a day, what would that day look like? What would be on your agenda, uh, for 24 hours. >> Rob: Oh, man. That's not quite what I thought. The question, like, for a whole day, what would you do all day long?

I just thought of one thing that I thought, you know, what I would really like to do, but maybe I should have had a bigger vision than this. But anyways, here's the thing. Years ago here at Trinity, um, the former pastor created this thing called the Institute for Evangelism, and it was like this kind of brand new way to help people grow in

their comfortability with sharing the gospel with other people. Anyways, I think given our conversation we've had today, and I. Where we're at, I would love to create something and call it an institute of leadership development or an institute of lay leadership development or something like that, because I think, for me, I think that's where it's at today, is building up new leaders, and especially lay leaders. I think that's key to the future of the church. So that's where I

put my energy. If that's the decision I would make as pope, well, I don't think that. >> Martha Tatarnic: That'S lacking in vision at all. I think that that's a great way to say, spend your day as possible. >> Rob: Okay, good. >> Martha Tatarnic: That's a good answer. And I should have said at the beginning of the rapid fire questions, is that you can take these questions as seriously as you want or not.

>> Rob: Okay. >> Martha Tatarnic: So, you know, there's no, like, wrong answer. >> Rob: Okay. Okay. >> Martha Tatarnic: All right, let's continue on here. So what, who would be a theologian or historical christian figure who you would want to meet, have supper with, bring back to life for a conversation?

>> Rob: I mean, most of these people are way out of my league, but, um, just this past Sunday, I referenced somebody in my sermon that I referenced a few times, and that was this preacher by the name of, uh, doctor Martin Lloyd Jones. And the reason I find him fascinating is he lived for, I think, was born in 1901. He died in the early 1980s. But he was a medical doctor, so he began his career as a medical doctor and then transitioned later into,

um, being a minister. He, for 30 years, preached at the Westminster chapel in London. He was a great orator, very, uh, you know, he rolled his r's. He was Welsh. He had, ah. Um. But this idea that he was both a doctor. So he had this science background, which I do, um, and he was also a pastor and preacher, which we do. Um, that I thought, that's an interesting mix, and that be just wonderful to see how that played out in his own ministry.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, good answer and one that we haven't had before. Sometimes we have repeat, uh, answers on future Christian, but I have not heard that answer before. That's good. I have to look him up. What will history remember from our current time and place? >> Rob: Well, uh, there's no doubt about it that the current moment we occupy, Martha, is a time of decline in, uh, the anglican church as we know

it. As we know it. And, um, kind of the end of maybe a period of Christendom as we know it. And so we get to actually witness this happening, uh, whether it's by 2040, as Neil Elliot says, or not. But there are. There's going to be some big changes that we're seeing. And I. I can't help but think that's what people are going to look back at this period, not only to say, hey, it, uh, was during that period of time that the kind of institutional church like

anchor church really, really lost a lot of members. But hopefully it's also a time where they look back and they say, and as a result of those changes they saw, there were these, uh, beautiful and innovative ideas that came out of the ashes, um, that planted seeds for the future church. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Uh, I think that that's what I would hope for as well. I know, like, I led a study in our church about, um, the history of St. George's, which is

over 230 years old. And it was so interesting looking at the boom times of St. George's and realizing that the seeds of declined were being sown in the midst of these busting, booming times. And so I imagine, like, the seeds of renewal are being within our time of decline. >> Rob: I like that. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. What are your hopes for the future of Christianity? I imagine this answer might be connected to the. >> Rob: Yeah, I, again, I think a renewed investment in lay

leadership. I think the future of the church is going to be less clerical. Uh, and so I hope that, again, our church leadership kind of gets ahead of that and starts to kind of create and train and form christian leaders who can, I don't know, just create different expressions of church in their neighborhoods, in their coffee shops, in their libraries, in their, you know, gymnasiums, in

their living rooms, whatever. Uh, that, uh, again, it's maybe not as heavily hierarchical or clerical, but just kind of a new underground movement of lay leadership that plants those seeds of renewal, uh, that we were just talking about. I think that's the way it has to happen. So that's my hope.

>> Martha Tatarnic: That's your hope? That's good. Well, as I said, I feel, uh, like I could chat with you for a couple more hours, and probably our listeners would love to hear more from you as well. So where can people go to find out more about you? >> Rob: Yeah, I think you would just go to our website, trinitystreetsville.org, or to our YouTube channel, uh, which is, uh, you just search for Trinity streetsville there. I did mention that I just completed a

thesis, uh, on some of the stuff we talked about today. We did reference some of it, and so you. If you google, uh, the leadership development road trip, I think it'll come up. Um, it's probably a, uh, long read in the Tyndale repository of theses, but, uh, that would be, uh, a place to find out more. Okay. >> Martha Tatarnic: M well, thank you so much for our conversation today, Rob. We always end our podcast with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.

>> Rob: And also with you. >> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast. To learn more about Loren or the podcast, visit future dash christian.com. one more thing before you go. Do us a favor and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're feeling especially generous, leave a review. It really helps us get the word out to more people. About the podcast. The Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain

arts and resonate media. Our episodes were mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is provided by Paul Romig-Leavitt. Thanks and go in peace.