Peter Elliott on Navigating Ministry and Creativity in a Changing Church

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,

Martha welcomes Peter Elliott to the show. Peter Elliott is a priest of the Anglican Church of Canada, hailing from the Niagara region of Southern Ontario. His ministry has included leadership within the Anglican Communion for the full inclusion of LGBTQ people, and strong advocacy for a spirituality that promotes social and environmental justice. Over his 40 plus years in ordained ministry, Peter has served in senior positions internationally and

nationally within the Anglican Church. A longtime resident of Vancouver, British Columbia, Peter was dean of Christ Church Cathedral and currently is a coach and consultant in private practice. He is a featured writer on arts and culture in the Anglican Journal, the national newspaper of the Anglican Church of Canada, and enjoys working with the dean of Portland, Oregon, the Very Reverend Nathan LaRude, as co host of the podcast the Gospel and Musical Theatre. Peter's husband, Thomas Roach, is

an artist working primarily in textiles. Please take a moment to rate and review this episode on whatever podcast platform you're listening on, and if you find it helpful, please share it with a ministry friend. Our mission is to help you and your church walk with faith boldly into the future. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am, um, the co host of Future Christian, Martha

Tatarnick. Today I'm having a conversation with Peter Elliott, a longtime colleague and a mentor to many of us, including me in the Anglican Church of Canada. Welcome to the podcast, Peter. It's so great to have an opportunity to talk. >> Peter Elliott: Hey, Martha, thanks for the invitation. Happy to hop aboard. >> Martha Tatarnic: Now, we know each other from way back and, uh, all kinds of, you know, various family connections across the Anglican Church

and so on and so forth. But many of our listeners certainly, um, don't know you. So we're gonna start with some opening questions and give, uh, our listeners an opportunity to get to know you a little bit. So, Peter, what was the faith context in which you. >> Peter Elliott: Ooh, well, you're in St. Catharines, Ontario. I grew up in St. Cathari, Catherine's, Ontario. Born in 1954 and into a family very

connected in the Life of the church. Guess the deep values of our family were spirituality, um, music, uh, um, education and family. You know. So, uh. My mom and dad were both very, very involved. Um, Grace Church, St. Catherine's it was the. I was born in 54, so you know, I'm a. I'm a baby boomer and that Partisan Catharines, which now looks old, uh, down around Geneva street and so forth. Um, was new suburbs and Grace Church was a new church.

And they were both very involved. My dad had been involved in the Anglican Young People's association, the aypa Famous, famous um organization in its time, um, as Dominion president. And so, um, he went, for example, as a youth delegate to the First World Council of Churches in Amsterdam in 1948. Heard Carl Bart and he. I think from that experience and from his sort of national, international experience as a lay leader. He was a financial executive.

Got a very, A broad vision of the church, uh, very progressive vision, rooted uh, in spirituality. And so he brought that home with him. My mom's origins, although they met in the Anglican Church, their mothers knew each other when they were pregnant with each other. Um, uh, had veered into evangelical Christianity. And so she was very at home in uh. More the Plymouth Brethren tradition. Although she was a good ah, Anglican through to her dying day. Um, and those influences came uh,

in. So our family spent a lot of time in church. I was a boy soprano, um, and so sang in choirs. Studied with Eric Dowling, who was the uh, organist and choir master at your parish and George's and Catherine's for many years. He was my. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, we shared a few, um, organists and choir askers who moved around our church. >> Peter Elliott: Um, so singing church, um, involvement. Um, that was all

very important. And in high school I got involved with the evangelical movement, the Jesus people, uh, I'm that old, um, the Charismatic Renewal Movement, um, and was a bit of a Jesus freak in high school. Um. >> Martha Tatarnic: I did not know that about you people. >> Peter Elliott: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so those influences were also very important. Um, and then I got to university. I was really seeking to get away from God. Um, and I found the more that I read,

the more that I wrote. I was thinking theologically, I mean, language I'd put around it now. Um, and so went to seminary. But that's. Early influences were St Catherine's Anglican Church, International Progressive Christianity and the Evangelical Charismatic Renewal Movement. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, those are some really great pillars, um, of influence and context. And you've teed up my next opening question, which is why

don't you tell us a Bit about your calling. Well, found yourself going to seminary after trying to get away from God. >> Peter Elliott: So my mother, were she here, may she rest in peace, bless her heart, would probably pull out embarrassing photos of me playing church as a kid. My grandfather, her dad built me a pulpit when I was 8 years old. It's still in our house.

Um, and so from uh, early, early uh years I had wondered about whether or not God was calling me into the life of the church as a priest and that sort of thing. Um, late high school my best friend was killed in a plane crash. Suddenly he, he's involved with Niagara Flying Club co, ah, piloted small planes. The plane was lost, found, um, no

survivors. And so all of a sudden some of the certainty that I had relied on in my faith mainly through the evangelical world and some of the charismatic renewal God was, was somewhat absent. And that's um, why I chose to go to a secular university. And I thought I'd be an English teacher or something like that. That was the aspiration

I had. Okay, but ah, then writing and reading, um, I studied English literature and philosophy and that was what really, what really attracted me were theological themes and God's great trick on me. I went to Trent University in Peterborough, Ontario, um, thinking it was a really secular university, not knowing that most of the faculty had been recruited from Trinity College in Toronto, um, and were more Anglican than Anglicans. And so everywhere I turned around I was bumping into

Anglicans. So I thought I'd go to seminary. The bishop at the time was encouraging some of us to go to um, to study in the U.S. um, and so I went to Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge Massachusetts and that was an eye opening experience. Went thinking I'd study theology but I really wasn't sure about ordination. >> Martha Tatarnic: Like maybe get it, get it out of my system. >> Peter Elliott: It looked like it was sort of around well

boom. From Ontario into Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1976. The first UM notice I saw on the bulletin board was uh, a report from the General Convention which was in Minneapolis in 1976. And the notice simply said ordination of women approved. And already at EDS there were two of the women who were ordained in Philadelphia, Carter Hayward and Sue Hyatt, who were on faculty and were regularly presiding in

chapel. Irregularly ordained was. So I discovered the feminist movement, um, discovered what one of my friends referred to as a venerable lesbian, uh and gay community at the school, progressive theology, um, and did a couple of years at a parish. I worked at Christchurch, Harvard Square, um, uh, and found out I really

kind of loved parish ministry. So with A friend. One night over a glass of bourbon, we were sitting reflecting on our lives and I said, I think I'm in for this ordination thing. I mean, maybe it was no road to Damascus for me. It was no sudden thing. It was kind of an evolving consciousness. Uh, a call, I guess. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Sounds like God had some chess pieces moving against you to sort of get you into that uh, checkmate situation in the best possible way. Yeah,

that's lovely. So, uh, what's uh, some change that you have clocked in the Christian context from growing up to now? I mean, I'm guessing there's a lot. So maybe pick one. >> Peter Elliott: Yeah. So moving from Cambridge, Massachusetts to Hamilton, Ontario was an enormous culture shock. And I remember I was secured at the cathedral, the Anglican Cathedral in Hamilton. And one of the things I was asked to do was to help coordinate a service for the girls auxiliary, which used to be

this kind of. It was like Brownies or guides, but it was an Anglican order for young girls. We were meeting, um, they all wore uniforms and that sort of stuff. And we were meeting to plan the uh, uh, the service and they said, um, so we would like to sing the hymn Sons of God now. I came back from EDS commit, deeply committed to inclusive language. Like that was it. And the idea that you would have a church full of young girls all singing Sons of God was just

cognitive dissonance. Like, are you people listening to yourself? >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. >> Peter Elliott: But in some ways I think my time at seminary gave me a sneak preview of what the future was going to be like. And then came into the Anglican Church of Canada where already women were ordained, but the uh, patriarchy and misogyny was still present, as it still is. Uh, by the way. >> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm.

>> Peter Elliott: Um, I came to. Back to the Canadian church just as the book of alternative services was being new liturgies. And there's a huge backlash to that. >> Martha Tatarnic: New liturgies. >> Peter Elliott: Um, so I came into a changing church. I came in 1980 when I was ordained, the church was already in decline. The decline was subtle for sure. Um, but it was there. And um, over, you know, I mean, Good Lord, um, 44 years now,

ordained. I've seen the decline of accelerate, um, become precipitous. Um, and when there are articles, as there sometimes are recently was that says the decline was caused by progressive values finding their way into the church. I want to call on that. I don't think it's anything to do with progressive values. I think the causes are deeper. So living through the decline, resisting it, trying to, um, trying to find ways to get out of it. I mean that's kind of.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yep, yep. Those are, those are definitely some overarching themes. Um, and I think that you're absolutely right. I take issue when um, when people like to point to a single thing and say, haha, that was what if. >> Peter Elliott: You hadn't ordained women, if you hadn't changed the King James version, if you hadn't brought GLT, LGBTQ2s plus queer folks in, you know, I mean. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, yeah, totally.

Okay. What is a spiritual practice that you are finding meaningful now? >> Peter Elliott: I'm not a contemplative. I'm kind of bad on all that sitting, uh, and thinking about God stuff and I feel badly about that. But you know, I don't think you can, you can't by force of will become a contemplative. In my humble, uh, point of view. >> Martha Tatarnic: I feel like God has room for us non contemplatives. >> Peter Elliott: That's such a relief, Martha. Thank you.

>> Martha Tatarnic: You know, yeah, I, I feel like God loves us too. >> Peter Elliott: You know, I've, I'm banking on it. Me too, me too. Um, my theologically, my view has become very uh, earth centered and so um, I mean I, I agree. When Richard Rohr says that the first incarnation wasn't in Bethlehem, the first incarnation was the Big Bang when divine energy materialized. That's beautiful. And so every tree, every, every plant, every animal, all of life discloses the, the mystery of

God. So we're fortunate enough, um, my husband and I to live in Vancouver right next to the, to the, to, to the beach and right next to, adjacent to Stanley Park. Um, so um, uh, we spent a lot of time outside we in pandemic times. We started and it has continued, uh, walking through the woods. Um, and so right now we're recording this in late uh,

summer. Uh, I find my spiritual practice is meditating on a dahlia adalia are these amazing flowers that uh, um, are uh, they grow um, taller than me and I'm six foot two. Uh, so they're huge. >> Martha Tatarnic: My gosh. >> Peter Elliott: Uh, I'm holding up my hands. Uh, it's a podcast. You can't see it. Some of uh, the blossoms are called dinner plate. They're the size of a dinner plate and intricately formed. The colors, the symmetry, the sheer beauty of them is astonishing.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. That sounds pretty contemplative, Peter. I don't know. >> Peter Elliott: It's as close as I'm going to get. >> Martha Tatarnic: I'm sold. Absolutely. Okay. Well, I had ah, a couple of specific reasons why I wanted to Invite you on our podcast. Um, first of all, you've had a really significant leadership impact on the Anglican Church of Canada. You had a long and uh, um, well respected career in a, leading a flourishing cathedral church in Vancouver.

Um, you now continue to have an impact as you offer coaching for people currently on the ground in Christian leadership and also in semi retirement, you're continuing to do some new and creative things, including a podcast whose content speaks to me the Gospel of Musical Theater. So we're going to get into all of those um, pieces of interest for me and for

listeners. But I think it's really helpful to just start by talking about a few takeaways that you might offer, uh, those who are currently in the trenches in Christian leadership. From your very full and successful um, run in parish ministry, what were some of the biggest learning curves for you? >> Peter Elliott: Oh boy. You know,

in parish ministry specifically, I was dean of Christchurch cathedral, Vancouver for 25 years. Um, and now I do sort of popping into parishes from time to time at the bishop's request, um, helping out, um, here and there, reading the culture, like um, in adaptive leadership theory they talk about what are the artifacts of culture in a congregation. Um, and some of that is uh, are things like furniture, um, processes of decision making, that sort of thing.

Uh, another part are the human documents, the human beings who make up congregations and the way they have figured out you know, um, how to be church uh, in our time. Um, so that's a learning curve. I mean it just takes years. Uh, uh, I followed a number of luminaries at Christchurch Cathedral in Vancouver. You know, ah, Herb O'Driscoll now of blessed memory, Jim Cruikshank, Michael Ingham.

Um, so there was my First Rector's warden 10 years after I started, introduced me to one of her friends as the new dean. Um, so it had this, um, had a kind of uh, a long memory. Uh, and finding a way in wasn't always easy. In, in early days, the early days of the cathedral were hard. Um, I was a bit of a change agent so um, you know that was, that was

difficult. But then once I kind of absorbed the culture and became part of it, really by the end, very much a part of it, maybe too much after 25 years. Um, then it was then, then it was like I caught sail. Um, and, and things clicked. Now that doesn't mean it was all beer and skittles, dear Lord. I mean every day was a uh, new set of problems and conflicts and

uh, difficulties and all that sort of stuff. But I get summer to summarize reading the culture, knowing the people, and, and figuring out how. How I sit in it. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that, um, those are some really key ingredients. They all take time, don't they? Like, I, I mean, 25 years is a real run in parish ministry in one place. I'm 10 years into, uh, St. George's

where I currently serve. And, yeah, I get that sense of, like, the wind starting to be in the sails, like, when you've put in quite a bit of legwork in terms of just, like, getting to know where you are and become part of it. >> Peter Elliott: Speaking the language, um, knowing the characters. Um, there was an article a long time ago from the Albin Institute that the thesis of it was, parish ministry begins after 10

years. And the notion was that it takes 10 years to read the culture, to be accepted, to be trusted as someone trusted, someone who would show up when needed, um, take care of folks. Um, yeah, and. And that's, you know, because after 10 years, I got itchy feet and thought, it's time to move along somewhere. And then I read that article and thought, oh, I guess I've just begun. Um, so just to your point, that's. >> Martha Tatarnic: A really nice reframe, isn't it?

>> Peter Elliott: Just to your point about it taking time. Think about it. I guess the meta, A metaphor would be, you know, um, the time it takes for a good wine to mature. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yep, yep. I like that. I like that. And, you know, it's a good learning. Um, I don't know where you fall in this category, but, like, I'm definitely somebody who wants everything done yesterday. And so, like, I definitely have come into the various parishes. I've served with a million

ideas that I want to do right away. And, and I generally get right on it. And, um, like, yeah, good ministry needs to sort of grow at the speed of relationship building, and that's pretty slow. And. >> Peter Elliott: Yeah. >> Martha Tatarnic: And, like, that's not at all uh, slight against getting things started and trying new things and so on. I mean, I'm a big fan of all of that, but I, I also just, like, it does take time to build that trust and that knowledge and.

>> Peter Elliott: Yeah. >> Martha Tatarnic: Are there things about parish ministry that are just completely different from what you thought 40, 44 years ago when you were ordained? Like, what are the biggest surprises? >> Peter Elliott: Well, I mean, for me, the biggest surprise was getting involved in parish ministry because I. Because I'm gay. And in 1980, being openly gay in the life of the church was kind of. Ah, it

was a red mark against you. It was something you Know, Scarlet Letter, whatever. Um, uh. And so my heroes had always been church bureaucrats. I always thought people who worked for the national church or diocesan folks, um, that would be a great career. And that was really my. The career path I was on. Um, I worked for the Diocese of Toronto, um, uh, coordinating, uh, lay education for

about five years. And then I worked for the National Anglican Church of Canada as a, uh, senior, senior management and program for five years. Um, and it was, uh. And I thought because there were lots of gay people who hid in church bureaucracy, it was safe. We weren't safe in parishes, um, because God knows what homosexual people would be up to in parishes. I mean, people's minds. Thank God. This has changed so much. It's one of the big changes. Thank God for it.

>> Martha Tatarnic: One of the big changes. >> Peter Elliott: So I was. I was as surprised as anybody when, uh, Michael M. Ingham, who was then the bishop, came calling at the national office, said, I'm looking for a dean. Uh, he'd been elected bishop. And I said, okay, Michael, I've been thinking about that. Um, I've got some names for you. Because the job I had, I was responsible for what the Anglican Church of Canada did in Canada. Not the international stuff, uh, and that sort

of thing, but the Canadian Mission. Uh, and so bishops were quite often in my office looking for clergy because I knew lots of people across the country. I said, I've got some names for you. He said, no, no, no, Peter,

I'm. I'm looking at you. I said, oh, Michael, you gotta be out of your mind. He said, what do you mean? I said, well, I've never lived west of Burlington, Ontario. Um, I've never been the rector of a parish, and I'm gay and I'm not called a celibacy. And he said, oh, okay, well, just hold on a minute. And we talked those three things. He said, um, the cathedral isn't really like a parish. It's more like a program center. And actually, your executive skills would

be really, really helpful. I said, well, I don't want to be sitting, spending a lot of time having tea with old ladies and stuff. He said, no, don't have to worry about that sort of thing. And we talked about the west, living in Western Canada on, um, the coast and, uh, and around the gay thing. He said, I'll. I'll support you as far as I'm able.

So I interviewed for the job, got the job. Long story short, to, uh, your direct question, by the end of my time, what I ended up loving about parish ministry was Sitting with older women and men, having tea and talking, because I learned so much. Their faith, their faithfulness, their questions, their capacity to change. There was a beautiful woman at the cathedral. She died probably 20 years ago or so. She was in her late 80s when I arrived.

And when she found out, uh, Thomas and I were together, she called me and she said, you're coming over for tea. Both of you. Like that. I said, okay. So we went over and had tea. And it was her way of blessing, right? Her way of saying, yeah. And she said, if ever anybody tells you they're too old to change, introduce them to me. >> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my gosh. >> Peter Elliott: So. And so the cathedral, I found. And I found in most parishes that I've hung around in, if

you take. If, you know, you talked about being on a quick learn, you want to do things. And, gosh, I was that. I want to do everything. I wanted to build a congregation, wanted to add new programs in all that. Once I slowed down and started listening to folks, I would wonder sometimes when I, you know, approach the altar or the pulpit at the cathedral, what the hell am I doing talking to these people presiding? These are the, uh. These people. My God, such faithfulness.

>> Martha Tatarnic: I know. And, like, through really hard things, you know, like. Like, you just. You understand something about resilience and generosity and, like, how your heart can break and, like. And beautiful things can be done. Like, grace can come through that heartbreak. Like, I mean, it. Uh. The point I just always find kind of overwhelming in worship is when people come up for communion and, like, I know what they're coming up with.

You know, I know what they're carrying. And I. And there they, like, they come so faithfully and. And they know how God has been with them, you know, like, they know how their faith has seen them through. It's remarkable. Like. >> Peter Elliott: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I. I mean, a similar thing for me, we, on Good Friday at the cathedral, um, did veneration of the cross

after homily and stuff. And so we bring in a big cross and then invite people to come forward and stand by the cross while the choir sang the reproaches or an anthem and that sort of stuff. And I. Oh, I stay. I sat there most, most, most, uh, good. Most every Good Friday and just silently wept. Seeing people stand in front of the crowd, knowing what they were bringing, you know, just because I knew these folks, um, and amazed at their faithfulness and their, um.

Yeah. So, I mean, I know parishes can be frustrating and good God, you know, pardon my language, there are some real assholes that you encounter and in work in the church and people who don't like, people who didn't like me, which I find impossible to understand why, but that is impossible. But, you know, people just. They. They weren't on my. We weren't on the same wavelength. That's fine. Um, and people who, especially through some of the sex wars in the mid to late 90s, um, you know, said

horrible, awful things. So I'm not saying that the church is far from a perfect institution, but at it, at the core of a healthy, uh, congregation, there is a cohort of people whose faithfulness is overwhelmingly beautiful and who really enriched my life deeply. And, uh, many of them continue to be, you know, friends, people I, I'm. Were able to see. And, uh, and. And. And sadly, now I've been retired for five years. I've gone to too many funerals of. Of. Of folks

who were. Yeah, but that's life. We're only here for a short time. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I think that you've named a few things here, but like, are there any other ingredients that you would just want to name that help toward happiness and fruitfulness in ministry? Because you're right, like, the challenges are real. Um, the grace is real, but the challenges are significant. Um, the hurt and the heartbreak that goes along with so many aspects of ministry that

can be, um, significant. So like anything else, you just want to. >> Peter Elliott: It's hard right now, I think, as the future, you know, as we move into the future with the decline, the precipitous decline of institutional, uh, Christianity, certainly right across North America and Western Europe. It's different experience in Asia, different experience on the African continent, obviously. But, um, with. With some exceptions, um, my heart goes out to clergy who are working these days.

Um, especially post pandemic, it's been really hard to. To get back, um. Uh, and the stresses that that, uh, brings out around finance. How do you finance the institution, how do you care for aging buildings? I mean, all of those things. I are very familiar issues, uh, from my own practice of ministry. I guess the one thing, Martha, I'd say. And I think you're doing it really well at St. Geor, and I see so many other places that are doing it. And, uh, I'll

say it in an outrageous, provocative way. I don't think you can spend too much money on the music program. M. Um. Yeah, I mean, I facetiously used to say, uh, about my time at the cathedral, you know, to the. To my clergy team. And, uh, I was fortunate to work with some first rate clergy over 25 years and we're always three or four of us, we think they're coming for our sermons, they're coming for the music.

Because. And I think it's profound because I think music speaks to a whole other level of consciousness than our didactic sermons do. Right. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. >> Peter Elliott: And when you look at the mega churches, what they call worship, you know, if, when I go to uh, a mega church, that is usually about 15 minutes of singing, that's the worship part and then there's the message and

then there's the commitment part. I mean, um, so uh, I despair often when I'm in churches at just how bad the music is and I don't think that's going to help us a bit. I, and it's, you know, we're my, my background in musical theater as well. I mean you can put on a great show, but if the music sucks in a musical. >> Martha Tatarnic: It'S um. Yeah, you're not gonna.

>> Peter Elliott: And for Anglicans anyway, for Anglicans anyway, I think really for all Christians, Sunday, uh, morning is musical theater. The liturgy is musical theater. Um, you know, uh, you're, you break into song all of a sudden in a great moment. You know, people say that never happens. Well, in my life it happens. I sing all. And it does at church. Yeah, we got costumes on, there's a script. Particularly

in more formal traditions like Anglican. Um, there's solos, you know, there's quartets and there's a plot and there's so. And I think people respond to that when it's when, when the musical theater, when the music is of high. The best we could offer, you know. The best we can offer. >> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. Well, and you know, to go back to like an earlier point of yours, which is blaming progressive values for the decline of the

institutional church. I mean I think that there's a, a much stronger case to be made for secularism being the root of the decline of the institutional church and that, you know, people have trouble connecting to the transcendent. Well, music is one of the most intuitive and immediate ways to, to allow that connection. Right. To invite people into that connection. So yeah, you can't spend too much money on the music program. Um, I can hear our, the musical leaders in our audience

applauding. Well, you look at uh, you look. >> Peter Elliott: At the enormous popularity of Taylor Swift, for example. >> Martha Tatarnic: Um, don't get me started about Taylor Swift because I have a lot of. >> Peter Elliott: Well, I do too. I mean her concerts are religious events in a whole. And, and the music, I mean people Sing along. Um, they know all the songs, they know the script. Um, and on it goes with. With pop music and, uh. Ah. Um, and I'm not saying

we have to, you know, have to bring pop music into the church alone. I think it's a bad idea. Um, but people's musical tastes are actually quite sophisticated in this postmodern era. And when they come to, you know, a church that. That struggles through some 19th century Victorian, uh, hymns badly. I happen to like a lot of 19th century Victorian hymns. I'm that kind of dweeb. Church dweeb. But, um, I mean, no wonder they stay away in droves. It's. It just. It. It's bad.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, well, we're gonna circle back to musical, um, theater in a little bit. But I do want to talk about clergy coaching because you offer, um, some coaching now, and I'm going to just, uh, give a bit of a preamble here because I think that it's helpful for our listeners to know that I came to you for clergy coaching in 2021, right in the thick of the pandemic a few years ago now.

Yeah, Um, I think for me there were a few reasons why I felt, uh, like this would be a helpful step forward for me in ministry. Um, Covid got me, to be honest, about some things that maybe I wasn't, uh, being completely real about, including some struggle with

burnout. Um, there was also just something about all that, like distance, enforced distance of COVID that highlighted problems in our organizational structure, communication, that kind of thing that had been easier to just overlook or ignore when we were seeing each other all the time. And that became quite problematic when, um, when we weren't in the same building.

Um, I think that there were two pieces around our time together in that coaching relationship that made the biggest difference to me in my leadership capacity. The first was just very basically the I've been there too dynamic. Um, that you are somebody who can speak out of your own experience of leadership. You're not candy coating anything. Um, I felt like my struggles were normalized. I felt like there were things that I could open up and name because I didn't feel as isolated in those

struggles. Um, so that was just a really big piece of the coaching journey. But then there was also very much, um, some concrete and doable advice that you were able to offer me from a different perspective, different lens, um, more experience. There were just some small steps and simple adjustments that really did make a difference in helping things to be better. So my first question, after all of that pretty is um, what made you want to get into coaching when you retired from full time, right?

>> Peter Elliott: Um, well I guess two things. One is retirement. I mean and that could be a whole podcast on its own because it's a huge issue. And the baby boom, we're all retiring around the same time. So retirement doesn't mean you stop living or stop ministering. And I kind of knew what I didn't want to do. I didn't want to do like long term interims filling in. I do a little bit of that but um, not

a lot. Um, and I've always been interested in clergy development, um, partly working with so many curates and associates over the years. Um, and as dean uh, in the diocese I, I had a fair bit to do with, with clergy appointments and all that sort of stuff. So curious about that. Um, and I, you know, like I enjoyed uh, sitting in the homes of elderly people drinking tea and hearing about their lives.

One of the things I did a lot at the cathedral, which I didn't think I was going to do, um, was being in my office available to people who, and I thought you know, well, what do I like to do? I like, I like listening to people. I'm, I, I'm fascinated with human beings and what makes them tick. And I had been helped um, at various levels, various periods over my uh, ministry with coaches, therapists, that sort of things.

I could do that. So uh, did a little deep dive into how you do that and got trained, uh, did training with the Neuro Leadership Institute out of New York who were really fascinating. They put together kind of brain science and good coaching, um, and got accredited and all that sort of stuff that took a couple years to do all of that. I had to sit an exam, a three hour exam. My God. I um, know I hadn't had an exam for like 45 years, almost 50 years I hadn't sat

in an exam. And then you have your, your uh, coaching, you record sessions and analyze uh, them and that sort of stuff. So, so did all of that and found I was, I looked forward like when I would, when your name would pop up in my calendar that oh, I get to spend an hour with Martha Tarnick and we're not going to bullshit, we don't have to talk about the weather or that sort of

stuff. We're going to get right into what's going on in her life and ministry, uh, and focus and, and, and, and, and take some positive steps forward. So in retirement it seems to me it's important not to just do nothing. I didn't want to do nothing. I want to do something. And I found this really. And continue to find this absolutely enlivening and energizing and educational. I learned so much from my, my coaching clients all the time.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, that's probably what makes you a good coach, is that, uh,

willingness to not just offer your own expertise, but also to, uh, to be a fellow traveler, a fellow student. >> Peter Elliott: Yeah. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. So I feel like we've kind of touched on this a little bit. But what would you say are, like the common pressure points across ministry as you listen to people like me? >> Peter Elliott: Yeah, well. And you are in a unique and privileged situation where you have a large congregation of, uh, clergy colleagues that

work with you. Uh, diverse. A lot of my clients are, um, in small, struggling congregations. Um, they are the only, the only priest there. Um, and it's lonely. It's just lonely. Right. And it's, um. Uh. So I think one of the pressure. One of the things that makes coaching valuable for folks is the opportunity to have a, uh, serious, full and frank conversation with somebody about exactly what's going on. Be heard, be seen, um, and to think through what you

want. The other is, and I sure know this, um, from my own experience, people, People have no idea. Like, I think I love laypeople and we've, we've talked about how wonderful they are. I don't think a lot of members of a congregation know what is really involved in being a parish priest. They think. I think they think it's really about Sundays, you know, and writing a sermon and, you know, that must take so much time. Well,

holy cow. You know, I know. I think the clergy who are listening know, um, yeah, you spend a fair bit of time, the sermon is always with you. That's not the, that. That's the fun part of the job, you know, that's where you get to be a theologian, biblical interpreter, cultural interpreter, all that sort of stuff that. I mean, I love that part. It was all the. It's the budgets, it's the building, it's the conflicts that happen inevitably in human community.

Uh, it's your own self doubt. It's imposter syndrome. It's all of that stuff that pops up. And here's my point. It's really easy to lose focus on. So what is it that I'm wanting to have happen here? What's my goal? What's my vision for the work? Yeah. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. >> Peter Elliott: So what people, what the feedback I get from my coaching clients is, um, and you went through the process as well. That whole first process of identifying 3.3goals to kind of

focus on. Uh, I had one client who said, you know, if you had done nothing else with me, but that that was worth it because it focused my mind. Okay, so I've got, like, these three buckets of things that I'm working at. Here's my vision of where we could go. And then helps me think through the planning steps and navigate the inevitable, uh, twists and turns in the journey to get there. Um, and I think it's lacking nobody else, uh, just speaking within the Anglican

system. I know people listening come from other systems, but the church beyond the parish. There's not a lot of help for clergy, particularly who are on their own in ministry settings to say, you know, okay, I know you want to serve the congregation. What is it? What's your vision of where this congregation fair should be going? And. And how do you imagine getting there? >> Martha Tatarnic: So, yeah, and that agency part is, like, really easy to lose track

of. It is so easy just to become somebody who reacts and who is just sort of constantly responding to the things that come up. Right. Um, it's. It is difficult often when you're in the thick of things, to be able to take a step back and say, okay, like, what. What am I discerning? My choices are here? Like, what am I bringing to the table?

>> Peter Elliott: Yeah, yeah, there's a little diagram. I probably shared it with you when we were doing our coaching journey from the, uh, Neuro Leadership Institute from NLI that has, uh, these five things in order. Vision, planning, detail, problem, and drama. And most of the time, for clergy, we begin with the drama. Right. Somebody is not speaking to somebody else or, you know, somebody didn't lock the church or name your drama. They just, every day, bloody dramas in the congregation.

And so, you know, what most of us are trained to do? I got a drama. So you bring people together, you sit down and say, well, we've had this drama. There's got to be a problem here. Let's start it. Uh, how can we fix the problem? And then you get into some detail about what the problem is. And, okay, so that's what the problem is. So what are we going to do differently? And so you can develop a plan. And often in the midst of all that, someone will

say, but what is it we're trying to do in the first place? The vision, in other words. So m. Starting with vision. What is it we want to do? What's the plan? Okay, let's detail that out. Then moving toward it. There's going to be problems along and drama. We can deal with those and we can keep going back to the vision. So. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

I think that's extremely um, helpful. I have to admit, like when I first signed up for our coaching contract together, it was a little, I was a little worried that it m. Was gonna feel too big, you know, like that we would start kind of digging into organizational structure and start digging into things that needed to be improved or whatever and that I would end up feeling paralyzed by how much needed to change. Um, and you know, I think that that can be like a, a reason why people fear

change, to be honest. Because like, like what if it's just too much? What if it's like everything? I feel like you were great about being able to identify each time that we met like one or two bite sized concrete actionables. >> Peter Elliott: Right. >> Martha Tatarnic: Um, and you know, maybe this is wishful thinking, um, for our

listeners. We usually don't subscribe uh, to the idea that there's actually magic bullets in ministry, but are there any like just little tweaks that sort of generally work for people, um, across the people that you talk to? Like are there one or two, like just kind of bite sized changes that tend to make a big difference? >> Peter Elliott: I mean we've all gotten used to the Ed Friedman phrase about non anxious presence. That that's what good leadership involves.

Um, and I, I think sometimes in ministry it felt to me like everybody was trying to get me anxious about something else. You know, um, there's not enough, you know, you're not spending enough money on the building. And uh, why aren't we doing more about the poor people who are coming to our door and uh, et cetera, et cetera and sort of. So I think a key is breathing, like not inhaling all of uh, all of the anxiety that is kind of the energy. I mean anxiety is

one way to look at it, institutional, uh, anxiety. The other is that's part of where the energy is bubbling up firm and uh, yeah. Taking a deep breath and remembering focus and goals and then treating people, giving people some space but also calling if that's what you're getting. >> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. >> Peter Elliott: And then loving the people. I mean I think that's the other.

And most clergy, uh, there are some clergy who genuinely don't like people and I wonder what the hell they're doing in the job. Um, because it's people oriented. It's a people oriented business. Uh, but yeah, finding ways to love them. That sounds facile. I don't mean it to be. >> Martha Tatarnic: Oh no, I don't think so.

Um, I think people will connect to those two pieces and obviously to do a, uh, coaching, um, contract with you or with somebody does get into the particulars of the ministry context. But I think that those are just a few broad brushstrokes that sort of are good reminders, you know. Love and breathing. >> Peter Elliott: Love and breathing. Yeah. That sounds like a title of a book, doesn't it? >> Martha Tatarnic: It sounds like kind of maybe

that. Maybe that's something you should think about, Peter. Love and breathing. Okay, let's, um, close with some, um, conversation about this fun project that you're working on right now. A podcast with Nathan, uh, Larude, the Gospel of Musical Theater. I think that we can both say that we're people who, uh, get a lot out of musical theater. I grew up on a steady diet of musical theater. >> Peter Elliott: We'll have to have you on our podcast.

>> Martha Tatarnic: A huge part. Yeah, Yeah, I have thoughts. Um, uh, it was definitely a big, big part of my formation. So you've said that, uh, it's pretty important to you and your life and spirituality. Music in general, musical theater specifically. What, uh, what do people need to know about the Gospel of Musical Theater in this fun podcast? >> Peter Elliott: Wow. So, um, a while ago, about maybe 10 years ago, I guess now, we. When

we got a new car, it had satellite radio in it. And I became a subscriber to satellite radio and began to listen to. There's a Broadway channel on satellite radio. It's all Broadway all the time. When I first started listening to it, every Monday was Merman Monday. It was all Ethel Merman all the time. And it helped me. >> Martha Tatarnic: That sounds like a lot. >> Peter Elliott: Oh, you can't have too much. Do you know that Ethel Merman was an

Episcopalian? She, uh, went to church every Sunday at St. Bart's Fifth Avenue, ah, Park Avenue in New York, and sang the hymns. Uh, so it was kind of the, uh, releasing of my inner musical theater queen, really. Um, um. And I began to listen more and more when I was driving or that sort of stuff, uh, to the golden age of Broadway shows and also

new shows. And I just realized I really love this stuff and was invited to teach a course at conference, uh, center, the Sorrento center, which, you know, in the BC's interior. And I taught there a lot. Taught course on the Gospel of John and the Eucharist and, And Rene Girard and all that sort of stuff. And they said, what do you want to do? And I was kind of. We were actually in Hawaii and I thought, ah, uh, what if what if you looked at musical theater as, uh, a

way for the gospel to be interpreted? Uh, and so my mind started going that way. Um, Nathan, who's the dean of the cathedral in Detroit, was coming. I, uh, invited him to preach at the cathedral here in Vancouver. Met him at the airport. We went out for lunch and caught up on news. He said, what are you doing? And still one of the things I'm doing is sort of thinking about this course called the Gospel Musical Theater. I don't know what I'm going to do.

Um, but he said, oh. Then we went out for dinner and we ordered drinks. And he said, what shows are you thinking of covering? And I said, well, of course we'd begin with Rogers and Hammerstein, probably Oklahoma, and work our way through that. Began a conversation that was 2019 that we haven't stopped having. He ended up co teaching the course with me at Sorrento. He's

also a musical theater queen. In fact, the tagline of gospel musical theater is cathedral deans and musical theater queens, Nathan Larude and Peter Elliott. So we are very out as queer gay men, uh, who love musical theater. And, um, so we take a show like, we've just done this a number of times. Uh, we've seven seasons of our podcast are available anywhere you get your podcast, gospel, uh,

musical theater. Um, take a show like My Fair lady, um, and begin to tease apart what's going on there and look at the gender politics of it. Um, look at where gospel comes, the transformation of Eliza. Um, uh, but also what a horrible, horrible, horrible person Henry Higgins is. Um, the first time we taught at Sorrento, we trashed, uh, My Fair lady in terms of its gender politics. And there was this lovely woman, uh, from the interior who was sitting in the front row and hanging

on her every word. And she burst into tears. She said, I love that show, and you guys have just wrecked it for me. But we look at Oklahoma, for example, which has to do. There's not an indigenous person in the musical Oklahoma yet. Oklahoma was where all the indigenous, many indigenous tribes, nations, uh, were put. Uh, it's, it's a peon to statehood and really to white supremacy. Um, we look at South Pacific and its, uh, absolute clarity about,

uh, the need to end racial discrimination. We look at the king and I and talk about colonialism. Um, so Nathan and I began this conversation, which we continue to have. Um, in the pandemic. We offered the course at Sorrento just before the pandemic at Sorrento. Then in summer school at Vst and then George Floyd, the George Floyd Black Lives Matter thing that happened. And Nathan called and said we need to do another version of this called Gospel Musical Theater Race and

Redemption. So we taught that at Vancouver, uh, School of Theology and at Trinity Cathedral in Portland and at Sorrento Center. And that's become part uh, of the uh, part of the analysis that we bring to musical uh, theater. So it's gospel but you know, like Frederick Buechner says, the gospel has to be bad news before it's good news. So we also look at the way musical theater reveals the injustices and oppressions of our time and how gospel can speak into that.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow. Wow. So we can find uh, all seven seasons wherever we get our podcasts. That sounds fantastic. I do have to just say so we did Oklahoma, um, in my high school and we had such a forward thinking drama teacher that she actually found a way of like incorporating um, kind of an introduction to the musical that framed the indigenous reality of um, and that was in the 90s in like rural Ontario. I just like Nancy

Lilliman. I'm not sure where she is now but she deserves real props for um, finding a way of highlighting that in rural Ontario. >> Peter Elliott: Bless her heart musical. It gave me goosebumps when you're talking about it. I mean I think one thing Nathan and I say is we approach uh, uh, a uh, show like in Oklahoma or My Fair lady or whatever, um, or you're in Town or Hamilton or the Barbie movie even as we would approach, as preachers would approach, a biblical text. Right,

yeah, it's a text, it's there. It has a particular origin but its interpretation is always evolving and it provides the opportunity for commentary, um, ah, for thoughtful reflection. Um. And so we use our skills as exegetes, people who do exegesis. We exegete the text and particularly the songs of a uh, uh, of a, of a show. Um, and so like

Oklahoma, there's been. There was a recent revival uh, on Broadway that Ebbs did what your teacher did in high school, um, and really played up the whole notion of gun violence. Um, so that the, the uh, conclusion uh, of Oklahoma. I mean it's such a weird show in so many ways, but at the heart of it, this Judd figure, right, this outsider who is, you know, scapegoated by the community. All of the sexuality that is kind of hidden over gets focused on Judd. It's a fight at the

end. It's a knife wound or is it a gun wound? You know, um. And so the set of this reinterpretation of Oklahoma is the back of the stage is filled with guns, and at the, uh, finale, the cast comes out covered in blood. Right. So all of a sudden, Oklahoma goes from being this sunny thing. I mean, when you're curly, when you're a blonde haired, blue eyed, hunky cowboy, uh, everything's going your way. You're a boy in the west. >> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, what a beautiful.

>> Peter Elliott: Everything's going my way. Yeah. On it goes. >> Martha Tatarnic: Um, okay, well, that is definitely something that, uh, I want to check out as soon as possible and I hope our listeners well as well. Um, we're going to take a quick break and come back for some closing rapid fire questions. So, uh, stick with us and we'll close it in a few minutes. Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.

I continue to be here with Peter Elliott, and we're going to close our show with some rapid fire questions. So, Peter, ready? Now, we always do tell our guests that you can take these as seriously or not as you want. Okay? So no pressure, but if you were Pope for a day, what would that day? >> Peter Elliott: Well, if I were Pope of the Roman Catholic Church, the only Pope. Uh, well, let's talk about him. There are other popes. Uh, I would ordain women.

Um, I would let clergy get married. And I would make a statement that affirms the presence in the church, the gifts and skills of lesbian, gay, transgender and bisexual members of the body of Christ. Okay. >> Martha Tatarnic: M. So that sounds like a full and productive first day. You're not going to wait 10 years. >> Peter Elliott: Just do it right away. Pope can do it. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What theologian or historical Christian figure would you want to

meet? Bring back to life, have supper with, grab a beer with. >> Peter Elliott: So I'm a Gospel of John geek. Um, like, complete nerd. I would like to meet the author or the group of authors who pull together this remarkable, weird text that finds its way into our New Testaments and is read reverently in churches around the world.

>> Martha Tatarnic: That's a good answer. Okay, um, just, I have to say, as an aside, I had Elizabeth Schrader, Polczer, on the ah podcast earlier this summer, talking about her pretty groundbreaking research into the Gospel of John. >> Peter Elliott: And I still like Martha, even if Martha is really Mary. >> Martha Tatarnic: I agree. >> Peter Elliott: Cause what a name. >> Martha Tatarnic: Wholeheartedly, I know.

Exactly. Exactly. Okay. What will history remember from our current time and place? Huh? >> Peter Elliott: Um, I'm hoping history will remember. This was a time in history when the United States of America elected the first African American, South Asian woman as President of the United States. That's my hope. >> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, uh, my gosh. Okay. So I just got some chills listening to you say that, because by the time this podcast airs, will know it's.

>> Peter Elliott: I know, right? >> Martha Tatarnic: So, like, the people who are listening to this podcast in the future, like, they will know whether that's. That hope came to fruition or not. >> Peter Elliott: I preached. I preached on this past Sunday, which was

just after the Democratic Convention. And the first two sentences of my sermon were pretty much what I said about the hope that I feel seeing, uh, around gender, around race, around all sorts of things, around progressive values. Just two sentences at the beginning of the sermon. And then I preached for 20 minutes on the John 6, ending, uh, the discourse of bread, of life.

So the warden got an irate letter saying, how dare Elliot use the pulpit for politics and he should apologize to the whole Church of England because this woman wants to cancel Christmas. And the warden, I'm just filling in this church wrote and said, what should I do with this? And I said, absolutely nothing. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that's fair advice. She wants to cancel Christmas. Oh, goodness. What are your hopes for the future of Christianity?

>> Peter Elliott: You know, I'm part of a commission that, uh, in. In the Anglican Church of Canada looking at the future. And we were, uh, there's about 10 of us. I'm the old guy on it. Most everybody is a generation or so younger than me. Um, and we were meeting in Montreal, went to the cathedral for a noonday Eucharist, and there were like 15 people there in this big building. And we came back after him. We're reflecting on that and thought

that's kind of a symbol of where the church is. You know, small gathered communities in spaces that are too big for us. And one of our members said, you know, you put 15 people in a old cathedral and it feels empty. Bring 15 people around my dining room table and it's a crowd. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. >> Peter Elliott: And that's my. I think the future of Christianity is.

I don't know who am I? But, um, there's always going to be ways for followers of Jesus to meet around a table with, uh, the scriptures, a cup of wine and a plate of bread, and say their prayers and tell the story and remember that Christ is with them and seek to serve the world. That's my hope for that's that. That's my hope is that continues. And I believe that will continue. I have absolute confidence that that'll continue. The institutional forms may. Are going

to slide away, lots of them. I hope some are retained because I love the aesthetic. I love it speaks to me um, but there's always going to be Christians who meet around bread, wine and scripture and want to serve the world. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, that sounds hopeful and um, like something beyond optimistic. It sounds like we can really trust in that. Uh, where can people find more about Peter? >> Peter Elliott: I've been meaning to get a website up forever and I haven't.

If you Google Peter Elliot Priest, you'll find a Wikipedia page and there'll probably be lots of links to sermons and things I've written in the Anglican Journal and articles here and there. Or you can just go to the. >> Martha Tatarnic: Podcast, like, Yep, go to the podcast. What about coaching? >> Peter Elliott: Like, no, I don't have a website. I don't have anything like

that. Contact, um, Martha and Martha can give you. If people contact you through this podcast, you can give them my contact information. I, I, I, I started to develop a website and I, I ran out of time because I was getting so many coaching clients. And then so all my referrals are word of mouth and um, okay, send me an email. >> Martha Tatarnic: All right, well, you heard it here on this podcast. Word of Mouth continues. Thank you so much for your time today, Peter. Thank you for this.

I think fairly wide reaching conversation and lots, uh, of different fun and insightful elements to it. I'm really grateful for your time as always. >> Peter Elliott: You're welcome. >> Martha Tatarnic: We always end with, we always end with a word of peace. So Peter, may the peace of God be with you. >> Peter Elliott: And you too, Martha. Thanks for the invitation. Always a joy to talk to you. >> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.

The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website@future-christian.com and find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.