¶ Intro / Opening
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church into the 21st century. At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith walk boldly into the future. Now here's your host, Loren Richmond, Junior. >> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're welcoming Reverend doctor Nicole Torbitsky.
Nicole is associate professor of religion and University chaplain at Lindenwood University in St. Charles, Missouri. Her current research investigates whiteheadian notions related to christian atonement theory. She serves as the editor for the center for Process and Faith's lectionary commentary series. She also serves as editor for Lindenwood University's student research journal, the Confluence. This interview was recorded in person at the persuade preaching conference at St.
Andrew United Methodist Church. Let's welcome Nicole to the show. All right, welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Lauren Richmond, junior, and I'm, um, pleased to be joined today by the Reverend doctor Nicole Torbitzky. So thanks so much for being here. >> Nicole Torbitsky: I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
>> Loren: Yeah, we're actually recording in person at, uh, St. Andrew United Methodist Church in Highlands Ranch, Colorado, as a part of the process and preaching conference right now. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Open relational and process preaching conference. >> Loren: Okay. And I guess tomorrow is like a whole new conference. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Uh, right. Another second conference hosted by, uh, homebrewed Christianity and Tripp Fuller, uh, on God after deconstruction.
>> Loren: So a lot going on here, and, uh, you know, I'm a church nerd, as I. As I told Nicole. So part of me was just walking through the space and checking it out this morning. Uh, but talk about, share, if you would, anything else about yourself you'd like our listeners to know about you. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Well, recently I put a book out on preaching and process, um, with Jeff Wells, Vicki
Randall, and Thomas J. Ord. So we edited a book with 68 authors who talk about how to preach from the open, relational and crosses theological perspective. And we're super excited about it. You can get it on Amazon and any other bookseller, and I think we. >> Loren: Just walked by it, right? >> Nicole Torbitsky: We did. >> Loren: I'll say for our listeners, it is probably a couple inches thick. So you're getting your money's worth with that purchase.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Yeah, I think it's about 500 pages long, and there are 68 authors and 78 separate, um, submissions. So there's a lot of good stuff to read if you're a preacher or if you're interested in exploring the practical applications of open, relational and process theology. >> Loren: Yeah. So, share, if you would, just kind of your faith journey, what that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: So I was actually really lucky to grow up United Church of Christ, and it runs in my family, so we've had a pastor in my family every other generation since we came to the United States back in the 18 hundreds. >> Loren: Your family. Wow. >> Nicole Torbitsky: And when I was 14 and got my call, and my grandfather, who was a pastor, was still living, and told him at one Christmas, and I think I'm gonna. I think I'm gonna go into the ministry, grandpa. And he
was so delighted. He was so delighted. And we had a family tradition of reading the nativity stories out of Matthew and Luke, and that year, he gave me the Bible. >> Loren: Wow. >> Nicole Torbitsky: And said, you read it now? And it was wonderful. >> Loren: Wow. >> Nicole Torbitsky: And from there, it was, uh, seminary in Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh theological Seminary, and a PhD in Claremont at Claremont graduate University, working with Roland Faber and John Cobb and
some of the greats. It was wonderful. And then into pastoral, uh, work, into church work, until I landed at Lindenwood University, where I'm, um, both faculty and the university chaplain. And it's been quite the journey. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: For me, it was. For me, it was mostly about constructing rather than deconstructing. >> Loren: Huh. >> Nicole Torbitsky: This is one of the things about some of the mainline
protestant denominations. We have a really hard time articulating the theology that we've got. And so when I went to seminary, when I went on and did my PhD work, particularly when I found Whitehead. Oh, man. This. This provides a way to understand the work that my church has been doing. And so, for me, it was a remarkable epiphany of how to understand this faith that I was gifted.
And so now I work with a lot of students, and they're kind of in the deconstruction process, and I've had to train myself to understand what that process is, because I never had to do it. I grew up in a church that was welcoming and wonderful and open and accepting, and everybody, come, y'all. And God loves everybody just where you are. And also, there's a social justice component. And so, like, it was a wonderful place to grow up. It was the perfect church experience. My
church family was wonderful. They were so supportive. And now I'm working with a lot of students who have been hurt by their churches, and this is. This is, like, surprising to me. Not surprising, but it's not my lived experience. So coming to conferences like these, like the deconstruction
¶ The importance of spiritual and communal connection
conferences and homebrew Christianity, where it's one of the things that they focus on a lot has been real instructive to me to help work with these people who haven't had the kind of blessing in their church life that I have. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. Um, I sort of have to, like, ask, like, if you have grandkids, like, they're just kind of, like, dead to rights, right.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Well, I have to say, so my grandpa was, like, a good, very kind of button down pastor kind of church guy, and then my dad was the epitome of the preacher's kid. >> Loren: Right, right. I mean, it's funny just to think about. I imagine you have some familiarity with, like, family systems theory. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Right, right, yeah. Yep. It's hard to get away from trends play out. And as it turns out, I've got and preachers kids. >> Loren: Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: God bless them, they'll be fine. And they both tell me, though, that they're not having children. So maybe it ends with me. >> Loren: Maybe. Well, I don't know if I can say this, but for the sake of the ministry, hopefully someone has a kid there, here and there. >> Nicole Torbitsky: I might just run into one eventually, and we'll work our family systems magic and get another preacher.
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh, any spiritual practices you want to share that are meaningful for you? >> Nicole Torbitsky: So, part of my ministry at my university, Lyndenwood University in St. Charles, Missouri, is as the university chaplain. And so I take time every morning to do a little yoga, uh, make sure that I sit quietly, do my kind of five minutes of mindfulness. But all of that feels like a prelude to the time I get to spend in
prayer. And there's a lot to pray for at a university. So the higher education in general is in a real area, uh, of transition right now. We're in a real time of change. So I spend a lot of time praying for my university and for higher education in general and for the administration at my university. And then, though, like, down to the struggles that my students have.
And as we all know, loneliness is epidemic among young people right now, and mental health issues are epidemic among this demographic, like the twenties or so. >> Loren: Right. >> Nicole Torbitsky: And I see a lot of it, a lot of young people come into my office and, like, I need to understand why this is happening or what's going on, or I can't do my church anymore because of all of the abuse. And, uh, does God still love me?
Is Jesus still walking with me on top of all of the other kind of abuse and mental health issues that I'm not a trained counselor, so those aren't things that I can deal with, but I can talk people through why God loves you, even if you're not going to the church. That was abusive. And I spend a lot of time in prayer in the mornings on them. Right. And as a process theologian, I've been asked, well, if, you know, if God isn't in control, then why would you pray?
Well, if God was in control, why would you pray? >> Loren: M that's a good answer. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Um, so instead, I believe in a, uh, God that is relational with me, that doesn't have the future all planned out and set in stone in a world where we really do have free will and God is responsive to the events that occur as we move through the world. And so why wouldn't I pray? Hey, God, this person is
struggling and they need a lot of help. And let me, let me add to the goodness of existence by lifting them up, by adding to this next layer of becoming of the world, the goodness that I intend for them, that I hope for them, that I hope that you hope for them my prayer, that they might be able to grasp the next best possible, that their families, that their churches, that their education might be open to those possibilities for the next. For the next. For the
next. Because each one of these students is amazing and has so much to offer the world. So, yeah, I spend a lot of time in prayer, and at least from my perspective, prayer from an, uh, open, relational and process perspective is much more effective than throwing our, uh, impotent prayers at a God who's already got all of the power into everything decided. >> Loren: Wow. Yeah, that's powerful. Thanks for sharing that. That's powerful.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And it helps get through the day. Right. It helps me orient toward the good that I know can come out of the work that I do. Because sometimes, sometimes, and just like everyone, sometimes I think what is going on, right? And that prayer time, that time and quiet meditation, uh, and moving meditation helps to restore. Right? Like it sounds so cliche, it helps to restore my soul. I'm ready for the next day. I highly recommend it, by
the way. The yoga and meditation and spending some time in prayer, it orients us towards the world in a different, more hopeful way. >> Loren: I think that's good stuff. I'm reminded, I don't know if you can think of the, uh. I can't remember who this quote comes from. Perhaps this comes to mind for you, but there's this statement by some guy, somebody in the past, who's something like, I'm so busy today, I need to commit so many hours of prayer
who was that? I can't remember. But, uh, isn't that like, isn't that like the. The pull, the struggle we have, right. So much in our modern society that it's like, we have so much to do that we just gotta. We gotta start cranking. We gotta start hustling. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Right? We gotta sit down with the tasks in my task list. Right. This morning when I let my phone start giving me notifications, I think more than 100 popped up. >> Loren: Oh, my goodness.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And it would be. It's real tempting. It's real easy to want to just start trying to knock things off the task list. >> Loren: I love marking off the checklist. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Sometimes I'll write things down on my task list just to check it off. >> Loren: Me too. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Oh, it feels so good. Yes.
And I've learned over trial and error that I am actually more effective if I take those moments to make sure that my body and mind are ready for a day. >> Loren: Yeah, I'm looking over your shoulder here. Psalm 46 ten in the classroom. Recording, recording at be still and know that I am God. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Oh, how interesting that we ended up with that one. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: When I got my call, I was young, I was 14. And I started asking the
pastors in my life. So my grandfather and my youth pastor and the main pastor at my church, how did you know? How did you know that you got your call? And my youth pastor looked at me. She, ah, answered me. She told me about her story. And I kept pressing. I'm like, but, yeah, but how did you know what was the sign? What was the thing? And she's like, nicole, if you're looking for a, uh, burning bush, you're looking for the wrong thing, right? M. That's not how the
discernment process goes. And she quoted that. And it has been one of the scriptures that has followed me my entire life. Right? Because God, I didn't. In my call story, I didn't have this mountaintop experience. I didn't get a burning bush. I didn't get the, like, um, massive moment of clarity where you turn from one way of living that was drawing you away from God and repent and turn the other way. I didn't have that
experience. I had the small, still voice of God, the gentle voice of God who would not let me go. Right? I got to college. I knew I had a call. I got to college. I'm like, oh, uh, maybe my gifts would better serve the world if I were a doctor or a lawyer. I can work for justice or I can work for people's health. And there was a God who constantly called me back, right. This love that would not let me go. No, I have something for you to do, Nicole. And come this way. Right, Laura, lead this way.
Right. Follow. And it was always God's still small voice. God has never been a bully with me, which is one of the reasons why process, open relational process theology resonated with me. So when I finally got into my college class, I took a class, uh, on Christianity and in my undergraduate coursework, and we went through the ancients, and we went through the medievals, and we went through some of the modern theologians, and this professor ended the class with a little unit on whitehead.
And he was so in over his head, like, he had. He did his best. God bless. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: But I was hooked. Was hooked. And I went to the library at my Truman, uh, state university in northeastern Missouri, and I found the unedited version of process and reality and process. And the edited version of process and reality is ridiculous. The unedited version was nearly impossible. I think I only stood, like, understood,
like, three quarters of what I read. But I got that book open, and I sat down in the stacks, and they, like, they shut the library lights off. They're like, you gotta leave. Like, oh, can we check it out before I go? >> Loren: Right? >> Nicole Torbitsky: And I was hooked, and it was this, right? God. For open relational and process theologians, God isn't a bully, right? God is a dance partner. God doesn't coerce us into doing things.
God invites us. It's that still, small voice that said to me, nicole, I got a mission for you. Right. It's that still, small voice, I think, that leads students into my office. Hey, I'm struggling with this. Can we talk this out, then? That's the way God has always worked for me. And I understand that it doesn't work that way for everyone, because there might be people in situations where you need kind of a kick in the pants, and that lore might come harder. Right? It
might come louder. Um. But even in those moments, I don't think that there's any coercion that we can still say, I'm going to continue down a path that's destructive. Cause I'm not ready yet. Right. And God remains with us. God remains faithful to us, even when we make choices that are destructive both to us and the people around us and our world. God sees it and laments it and invites us to better.
>> Loren: Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: And as Marjorie Suhaki likes to say, sometimes the best possible for a particular situation still is pretty bad, right? If you've been walking down a bad path for a really long time. Sometimes the only thing that you can do is not the worst thing. Yeah, but then if we make that right choice, right. If we make that one right choice, that still is pretty crummy. Then we've opened up a whole new set of
possibilities for making better choices. And so God walks with us and calls us onto those better choices for each moment so that hopefully, with God's help, with God's companionship, like, oh, uh, like the silly footprints poem. Right. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: We have a companion who walks through it with us and calls us to better and better and better if we're willing to answer that call. And that's
grace, right? That's grace for every moment, every moment of our life, we get that grace. >> Loren: Well, this is great. Um, I want to ask, and I'm kind of just throwing off our script here, so hopefully you're okay with that. I know you weren't too locked in. Anyway, this will kind of lead into what I was hoping to talk about somewhat too. But I'm thinking about, you know, you said you wrestled with a choice. Do I pursue being a doctor or a lawyer? Can I
do more good in the world? Yet you clearly have chosen to do ministry, at least as I see it. We live in a context, societally, where whether God exists or not is, uh, you can correct me if I'm wrong here, but less and less people live as if even God exists. And even for those, I think, who do, there's this idea that, like, why would I want to waste my time in church when I could do more good in the world by being a doctor or a
lawyer? So hopefully I'm not misinterpreting here, but I'm certainly of the opinion that, like, ministry really matters. So I guess maybe a two part question here. Like, do you see this kind of dynamic? And b, if someone comes to you and it's like, hey, I feel it's called to ministry, but it feels like a, uh, waste of my time or not effective use of, because, again, the hustle. Right. We gotta be the most productive and efficient. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. Right. Okay,
so, yes. So society is moving away from. It's moving away from the way church was done up until about the 1980s. Right. The 1970s and 1980s is when church membership started to fall off in the United States. >> Loren: Right. >> Nicole Torbitsky: And it seems to me that that's right about the time that hustle culture became a real thing. And so get up on Sunday mornings and take your kids to sports, because sports
make us. They indoctrinate the values into children that we want in american society. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. Teamwork and go get it ness and competitiveness. Okay. >> Loren: And it's fine. I love sports. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. Sports are kind of great, and all of those things are really decent things to do, like teamwork. And there's nothing wrong with competitiveness so long as we're
what's, uh, good at being competitive. Right. There's kind of good competitive and bad competitive, right? Uh, yeah. >> Loren: I mean, sportsmanship, I would say, matters. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Yes, it does. So all of these things are very good civil values. These are civil values, yes. And they're not necessarily christian values, even though in the United States today, there are lots of people who would like to tell you that those civil values are actually christian
values. Right. Um, and once again, there's nothing wrong with those civil values. Right. They're great values, and yes, we need to inculcate them. But this move toward the go getter kind. Ah. Of capitalist, whereas we're moving into kind of this late capitalist stage, maybe, hopefully drew people away from the community. The responsibility, the contemplative aspects, the slowness, and also the humility of what it means to be in church life together. And those are also very good values.
And I think as a culture, as we've moved away from this, we've lost some of those good things. And church and churches, in response, have, um, upped their game. Right. So we've moved from church 2.0, which I like to call kind of mainstream protestant denominational worship. Right. Church 2.0, to church 3.0, uh, which is very interactive and very entertaining.
>> Loren: Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: And once again, nothing wrong with church 3.0. I think it was a good response to what we saw happening in the eighties and seventies, eighties and nineties in the United States. And also, though, it didn't really stem the tide, and there's a real thirst for connection to God in the world, even among those people who are like, I'll never, ever go to a church,
even those who are, like, not hurt by a church. I understand those who deconstruct, and they're not going back, and I understand why. But lots of people weren't raised in the church and have no desire, because it doesn't. It's not even church 3.0 isn't scratching that spiritual need for a lot of people. So there's still a call in the world.
One of the things that we try to do, like, um, in the preaching book that I just edited in conferences like this, is how to help scratch that spiritual itch that's probably not the way I want to say it, huh? Fill that spiritual need. Not everyone, apparently, but lots and lots of people in the United States are desiring of the community, of the spiritual connection. And right now, churches in America don't seem to have the formula
to reach that. And I think this is one of the reasons why the loneliness pandemic has gotten so bad. Yeah, church used to be the place where everybody went, right? And even if you weren't particularly religious, you still went to church. Cause that's where your community was, right. M and we've lost a lot of community. I think that church can still fill that spot. Cause it's
not just community and human companionship. Cause we've also seen things like membership, um, in like bowling leagues and Boy. >> Loren: Scouts, VFW, you know, all these, all of that. >> Nicole Torbitsky: So as we've gotten more individualistic, we've lost our sense of community. It m might be one of the reasons why we're dealing with so much division in the United States right now. >> Loren: Yeah, I believe it.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: And also then we lost that spiritual connection to each other and to God. And I think we're in the process of figuring out
¶ Thoughts about the Future
how to rebuild those connections. And for some people, like, they're still doing church 1.0, they're still doing church 2.0, they're still doing church 3.0. And that's really great. We've got this whole group of people now that I come into contact with a lot in my work who are deconstructing, um, or who were never members of a church and are really suspicious of it. And this is the group that I'm interested in, because the people who are the nuns, the n o n e s, continue to grow, but
still want spiritual connection. And so this is the group that I'm interested in. And I think that open relational and process theology can help make sense of the kind of spiritual connection that people are looking for. Because sometimes the christian God gets real zeus.
And that is easy to reject. Uh, when we start to talk about ORPt open relational and process theology, we start to get into imagining a divine that is with this world, that doesn't leave us alone, that helps make sense of evolution and science, uh, our psychology. Right. All of this makes sense when we start to look at this metaphysic of the way the world works. And I think that it has a lot to offer to those people who are seeking. >> Loren: Let's talk about, or let me say
real quickly, I was just listening to a, ah, podcast. Simon Sinek, um, really powerful, talking about loneliness and he was saying he's of the opinion, um, the increase in loneliness has led to the suspicion of others. When we're less connected, we're more suspicious. And then his guest, who was a rabbi, shared this really, really powerful story of, uh, ritual. It's hard to describe grieving someone,
uh, through a faith community. Really powerful. Uh, I forget what the title was, but if you look up Simon, uh, Sinek's optimist something optimist podcast, I don't remember what it is. Um, came to mind. I'm also thinking about, I'll use your word, the spiritual need, the spiritual hunger in people. Um, I had a conversation recently with a guy named Dave Bowden, who's in the UK, comes
from more evangelical tradition. But this is very much the kind of work he's doing there in a context that's more post christian than we are here in the States. About, um, trying to imprecisely your words here, that, scratch that itch. I know it's imprecise, but I like the metaphor, the image, uh, because I guess I believe there's an itch. Um, and I think we talk about, to me, I'm a kid of the nineties, my real faith formation, where it was all about, um, who's the
Mc? I'm thinking of? It's not Macarthur, it's, uh. Gosh, I can't remember his name. Evidence that McDowell of, uh, Josh McDowell. Evidence that demands a verdict. It was very much, and again, I grew up in a fundamentalist evangelical space. I don't know if it was like this in mainline context, but very much about apologetics. And to me, it seems like today, if you were to go with someone who came in who's a nun, and be like, here's all. Let's lay out all the facts, they'd just be like, shut
up. I don't know. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Absolutely. So, as a member of the United Church of Christ, which is a very open and affirming, accepting denomination, um, I get, I am lucky to have conversations with people who believe that I don't follow Jesus, and they're going to bring me into the fold and save me, and I appreciate their hearts. I do. Uh, and the kind of apologetics that they use is, uh, unconvincing to me.
>> Loren: Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: And it is to the nuns as well, of course. And I see it. I teach a class on science and religion, m and people who are believers who come in leave believers, and people who are not believers, when they come into this class, leave non believers. So apologetics, it only works. I think on people who are predisposed or who are looking for community. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: And we do have.
>> Loren: I mean, I think that's. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I feel like that's exactly what we're seeing right now with, like, similar to this. Like, uh. I don't even know what the right word is, but, like, these m the young men who are just going, like, hard, right? Like, they're not. Are they really, like, going, like, hard right. After all these. I don't even know the names because, like, they're so much more convincing or they can find community.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. And I see this at my university as well. So lots of. Lots of seekers or non believers are very lonely. They're freshman year on campus. And as much as my university attempts to draw people in to, like, come and have community, and here's all of these activities and here's things to do. There are always people who are resistant to joining group things, uh, for whatever reasons they've got. And the christian groups will find one on one work.
Right. So one of the members of one of our christian groups on campus will see someone alone in the cafeteria and will make a point to sit down with them. Yeah. >> Loren: M. Right. >> Nicole Torbitsky: So they do this thing that is really good and important, which is make a personal connection with someone who is very lonely and not really in a position to make connections in big group
settings. And this is very, very attractive to a lot of freshmen who get into these groups and then, by their senior year, end up in my office because they didn't know what they were signing up for. They didn't understand that this invitation to join a group meant that they had to cede all control. >> Loren: Right.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: This group would try to tell them who they could date and how, uh, they could spend their money and where they could live and if their parents weren't on board, that they needed to cut off contact with their parents. And so these kinds of groups fill, uh, a need. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: That's an important need that needs to be filled.
And also, many, many stay, and many come to me and like, okay, I found Jesus, and we had this really great time, and now it's gotten a little bit ugly. What do we do? Right. How do I do this? Okay. Right. We can move forward from there. There are christians out there who are faithfully following Jesus, who also don't need to see your tax returns. Did that help? Did I answer that question? >> Loren: I'm, uh, thinking, too. I'm thinking about
the challenge of identity. Uh, as I've read it, identity is a real struggle. And as I understand, there's this real pressure. Thank goodness. I joke when my wife and I were dating many years ago, this was. I didn't have a cell phone. She had a cell phone very shortly. I couldn't imagine, like, even just navigating a relationship via
text. Um, but certainly what I'm reading and hearing more and more is that since the advent of social media, there's this need to construct an identity and just how exhausting, um, that can be. And I'm thinking some of what I'm hearing from different voices is one of the gifts of Christianity can be, is that, you know, you know, in Christ, like, that's your identity. I'm not articulating it super well, but there's this grace to not have to be a thing.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right? Like, in Christ, you are a son or a daughter of God. Right. Uh, you're a brother or sister to Christ, and therefore a brother and sister to all other Christians, or at least the Christians who agree with you. Exactly. >> Loren: Uh, I like to joke that my theological eyes are often bigger than my stomach because I tend to have a big tent and then some folks don't always have such a big tent, and sometimes I have to haunt me. But, yeah, I hear you.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: It does, and it does. And so finding Jesus when you come to college does really help people find an identity, find a place to fit in, find a set of ethics and rules to help guide a life as they move into true adulthood. And it can be positive and powerful. It really can be. And it really does help combat the loneliness piece that a lot of people feel. Mhm. And I think that that is one of the strengths. Like, this is one of the ways that Christianity helps
to. And, uh, religion in general. Right. I'm an academic. I'm an academic. And so it's not just Christianity that does this. Right. All religions do this. So we see it in Islam and we see it in Hinduism. Here's our group identity, and you're welcome to join it. Right. And so this is a function of religion. And all religions do this, Christianity does it. And then also on top of the identity piece, these students do develop a relationship with the divine.
They do get that spiritual need fed and filled. And I think it does help. We did a recent study on, um, like, success in college based on your attendance at a christian group. And it turns out if you are a member of one of the christian groups on campus, you are more likely to succeed and succeed. Well, Dodge. Right. And that might, I mean, for some people, like, yay, Jesus intervened on your behalf and made your grades good. I don't think that's it.
I think when people get their spiritual needs met and when they get their community needs met, then they're more likely to succeed in their academics, as well. And it's part of getting your mature life in order. Right. To get these needs met, to have a community and identity and a relationship with the divine. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: And it's something that Christianity in general needs to
get better at. Right. How do we reach this group of nuns in a way that is non coercive and welcoming to all people? Because that group, you know, 30% of people under the age of 20 right now identify. I'm gonna start to get into places where people are gonna start to be uncomfortable, and I'm sorry about this, but 30% of people under the age of 20 identify as queer, as LGBTQIA. Right. All of that. And those people are not really welcomed by most of the christian groups on my campus.
>> Loren: Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: So then they come and feel. Because it's only about 30%. Right. They come and feel like part of the minority, and they're not welcomed as they are by most of the christian groups. And we have all, uh. And are struggling to find their identity. And this is where Christianity is failing God's people. There's a whole group of people here that need to know the love of God and the non coercive love of God. >> Loren: Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. The love of God that accepts you exactly as you are and calls us in each moment to be the best version of ourselves that we can be. It's what I hope to do in my ministry. Like, the people who, uh, don't identify as queer, LgBtqia, uh, they find that they can find their place really easy in the Christian groups. So it's this underserved population that I try to focus on in my. In my ministry at Lindenwood.
>> Loren: Yeah. Life. Well, our time is moving quickly, and I want to get two more questions here before we move on to the closing questions. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Sure. >> Loren: What. What do you think? Uh, how am I trying to say this? What would you want churches to know about young adults? >> Nicole Torbitsky: Okay, so churches need to know that young adults are lonely. >> Loren: Okay. >> Nicole Torbitsky: M. And they would rather be lonely than do it the
way the boomers do it. And the next thing they need to know is that even those young adults who are part of a christian or muslim or jewish or hindu group that don't accept the queer community, um, those people are hungry for a church that love them. And it might be time for us to consider just loving all of God's creation, we risk losing the good news if we refuse to love like Jesus loved other.
>> Loren: Half of the question then is what do you think young adults could learn from churches? >> Nicole Torbitsky: Loving a church is a lot like loving a marriage partner. When you get married and you say yes to this person now you also are saying yes. I think Tim Burnett said this last night and it's so true. You're saying yes to that person and the 30, 40, 50 versions of them that they'll be, ah, over the next
however, years. And you're promising in this moment that even if you don't like that version, you're gonna love them anyway. Churches are a lot like that. >> Loren: That's a good analogy. >> Nicole Torbitsky: I might not like a move or a decision or a choice in the church that I'm at. And maybe it might be better for us to stick around and learn how to function properly, to deal with conflict, to help move a church in a direction that we think is faithful
to God instead of just like. One of the problems that kind of the mega churches, evangelical churches are having is that they don't. Lots of people hop megachurch to megachurch. >> Loren: The back door is wide open. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. And one of the things that young people can do is find a community that they think is a good fit for them and then stay there. Right. Jesus tells us that where your treasure is, there your heart will be.
Not where your heart is, there your treasure will be. Right. And so there's a distinction there. Where you put your time and treasure, where you put your effort, that's where your heart will be. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Nicole Torbitsky: So choose that thing that matters to you and then your
heart will go there. Right. If this is where we put our time and our attention and our focus, then that will help us connect with God and connect with community, which if you're listening to what Jesus has to say, are really the same thing. Right. The greatest command is love the Lord your God. And the second, in the King James version, it says, the second is like, unto it. >> Loren: Hey, I got my king James Bible right here, so amen to that.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: The second is like, unto it. Well, what does that mean? It means the same as. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: So to love the Lord your God is to love your neighbor as yourself. So get some neighbors and love them. And that way you'll look, it's good stuff here. >> Loren: It's good stuff here. You ready for some closing questions? >> Nicole Torbitsky: Yeah, let's do it. >> Loren: I feel like we should just keep going, but,
um. It's good stuff. It's good stuff okay, so if you're pope for a day, what do you want to do with that day? Any big, any big calls you want to make? >> Nicole Torbitsky: Yeah, I'm not so authoritarian, so maybe that's the thing I would do, right. If I were pope, I'd be like, hey, let's make this way less authoritarian and let's make it much more communal.
>> Loren: Yeah, that's fair. Abolishing the papacy is a common answer, but it sounds like you're looking for a more nuanced approach. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Right? Much more nuanced. There's no need to abolish it. There's definitely a place for leadership. Right. That's why some people are called to ministry. Everybody gets certain gifts. So, uh, there's a whole lot of power, though, kind of concentrated, uh, in one little place.
And so maybe a little more power sharing would be a good idea. A little less top down. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Uh, include people of all bodies in the power structures. Mhm. Uh, if we're all made in God's image, then all of us get to take, uh, leadership positions if we're called to that. What would I do? I would. If I were pope for a day. I try to also make it so that none of this could be undone.
>> Loren: Okay. Yeah. It's gonna be a lot of, like, legal, legal work there. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. I need to prepare for my pope for the day, so I could just get into office on the first day and start making all sorts of undoable changes. >> Loren: Um, a theologian or historical christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Okay. If I was gonna have a party, I would want, like, David Hume.
>> Loren: Oh, this is even a better question. Like, who do you want to invite to your, like, I'm thinking, like, did you watch the good place? >> Nicole Torbitsky: Yes. >> Loren: I feel like this is what's coming to mind for me. Like the, uh. Do you remember, like, I think it's season four when they get to the good place and it's this really pathetic party with the drink dispenser. That's what I'm thinking of.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: Right. Who would I want? I would want the philosophers and the theologians, uh, and the church leaders from the past who were good at a party. >> Loren: Okay. >> Nicole Torbitsky: Uh, and I think that Jesus would be involved in that. Right? Like, I don't think that Jesus shied away from a party. He was. He brought the wine, right. Or, uh, he brought the good wine. >> Loren: Yeah.
>> Nicole Torbitsky: So, okay. Right. You come on, Jesus, and let's have the good wine, and then you can tell us all about how we ought to be. >> Loren: Yeah. I feel like Jesus would just be, like, telling just like, these kick ass stories, right? That would just be like. You'd be, like, laughing, you'd be crying. Then you'd be like, oh, man, right? It's got minutes or two, right? >> Nicole Torbitsky: Like, something got healed in me at this party over this
wine. Right. I think that would be. I would actually love for David Hume and Jesus to meet. I think that would be very helpful for David Hume. >> Loren: What do you think history will remember from our current time and place? >> Nicole Torbitsky: I know this is. We are undergoing another massive change. Although everyone of every generation says that, right? Unprecedented change. Unprecedented change.
I, um, think what really will be remembered is the rise of nationalism, like religious nationalism. So in the United States, it's christian nationalism, but in India, it's hindu nationalism. This is gonna be. This kind of syncretism is gonna mark a turning point in not just Christianity, but religion in general. So when we come back and study it, they're gonna be like, oh, well, here's where nation states and religion got real blended again.
It's always been. There have always been times, but, uh, it's going to get real blended right now, I think. >> Loren: What are your hopes for the future of Christianity? >> Nicole Torbitsky: More and better for it, right. That the good news. I know that was such a long pause. The good news continues to grow. Right. And there is good news out there. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. That's good stuff. Uh, Reverend Doctor Nicole Torbitsky, thank you so much for your
time. Where, uh, can people connect with you? Get the book. >> Nicole Torbitsky: You can find our book, uh, um, preaching the power of the uncontrolling God. And you can find it on Amazon. So just Amazon. And you can even google my name, which is no one will be able to spell. So how about Jeff Wells? >> Loren: Jeff Wells. That's clean, simple Jeff Wells. >> Nicole Torbitsky: He was our main editor, or Tom Ord. And that'll, uh, draw up these books and preaching the
uncontrolling love of God. And you can find it there, and you can find me. I'm, um, uh, not much of a social media user. It's kind of bad for my soul. But, uh, you can find me on Instagram and Twitter just under my name. Nicole Torbitsky. >> Loren: All right, well, this has been a great conversation. Really appreciate the time. Uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. >> Nicole Torbitsky: And also with you. Thank you. >> Loren: Thank you.
>> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast. To learn more about Lauren or the podcast, visit future dash Christian.com. One more thing before you go. Do us a favor and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're feeling especially generous, leave a review. It really helps us get the word out to more people. About the podcast. The Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
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