New models of clergy credentialing: Jonathan Foster talks about the Open Table Network

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church into the 21st century. At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith walk boldly into the future. Now here's your host, Lauren Richman, junior. >> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're welcoming

Jonathan Foster. Jonathan is the partner of one, father of three, author, podcaster, lowercase Tea, theologian with some degrees, founder of lovehaty.org and a lover of mountains o and Colorado School of Mines, and in general, a, uh, solvum probler extraordinaire. Find out more@jonathanfosteronline.com. Let's welcome Jonathan to the show. All right. Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Lauren Richmond, junior, and today I'm pleased to be

welcoming Jonathan Foster to the show. Hey, and welcome. >> Jonathan Foster: Hey, welcome to you. Thanks so much for. Thanks so much for having me back on. Appreciate it. And, uh, it's great to see you, man. >> Loren: We're hoping to do this in person. Last week at the conferences we were a part of, but Jonathan is just such an important figure that I just could not pull him off the many panels, uh, and speaking elements he had. And I had other things, unfortunately.

So we're doing this virtually, uh, here. So appreciate your time and making some time to have this conversation. >> Jonathan Foster: Absolutely. Sorry it didn't work out in person. That's goofy. When we were together, couldn't make it happen, but, oh, well, we got the technology, and, um, I'm thankful to have a conversation either way. >> Loren: Right. So you've been on the pod before, but give a sense,

uh, give a summary, if just kind of. If you can, of your background, faith journey, that kind of thing. >> Jonathan Foster: Sure. Well, uh, I've been a church planner most of my life. Um, that served me really well. I enjoyed doing that. Hopefully, I served it well. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Jonathan Foster: And then, um, my theology kind of shifted and changed and morphed, but went, uh, through a lot of loss, including the loss of our daughter about nine years ago

and four months ago. And, um, that really just kind of fast tracked me. I, you know, there's a lot of questions I had to respond to. And so as I was trying to have intellectual honesty with all of that stuff, uh, just kind of picked up speed and didn't work really well with my denomination, my former denomination, they asked me to leave. And, um, yeah, so that's been a really interesting journey, and it's really absurd, but I'm also quite grateful for it. I'm thankful. Thankful for where I

came from. I'm not bitter towards them. I think it was silly, but, um. But I'm also thankful. And then we got a partner of 34 years, and we have a couple boys who are now in their twenties and have kind of grown up in all of this shifting, changing stuff. So that's been fun and meaningful to process it with them. Um, and I'm an author and a podcaster, and I run a nonprofit down in Haiti. And, um, I'm involved in way too many things. >> Loren: Yeah. The, uh, big fancy title for Jonathan

Foster's podcast. Here, give it to us. >> Paul: What? >> Jonathan Foster: What is it? >> Loren: Jonathan Foster. >> Jonathan Foster: Right. Jonathan underscore Foster, the podcast. >> Loren: That's a big, fancy name, right? >> Jonathan Foster: Yeah, that, that's my big, fancy name. Jonathan Foster. Because, um, all the cool names, like future Christian were taken and what are you gonna do, man? So I just. I just went with it.

>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Um, what's a spiritual practice that's been meaningful for you of late? >> Jonathan Foster: Um, probably the most important spiritual practice for me over the last. Well, really my whole life, but certainly the last nine or ten years, has been getting out hiking when I'm out in your part of the country. Um, I mean, I can call it hike when I'm in Kansas City, but it's kind of embarrassing. It's really more of a walk or a run. >> Loren: A walk on gravel.

>> Jonathan Foster: That's right. We, uh, have some nice parks here, but not a lot of incline or decline. So, um, getting out and doing that has probably been the most important thing. I often think about exercise as a way to exorcise the stuff I got going on inside of me. And the physiological, the spiritual, as you know, are all entangled, and so it's. There's no delineating between the two. So it's. It's a really important time for me, man.

>> Loren: I know that Thursday, uh, yesterday, I came home just really exhausted from mental and physical grind this week, but I got on the treadmill and just kept going. Cause, like, oh, uh, I'm exhausted with this. Feels good. >> Jonathan Foster: Yep. Yeah, that's how that works. Yep. For sure. >> Loren: Yeah. Well, I wanted to bring Jonathan on the show because Jonathan is a part of this pretty recent formation of a clergy network called Open Table Network.

And as I understand it, it's kind of a new credentialing source. Is that fair to say? >> Jonathan Foster: We're not sure what to call it. It's opentable network. Um, it's funny, um, we started it together, myself and my friend Dana Hicks and also, um, Jennifer Miles and Guy Taylor. And so the four of us were all kind of in similar positions. Jennifer and Guy, more coming from chaplaincy and having. Needing to be reordained, re credentialed, uh, for their

positions, but also wanted. Wanting to do it in a place that was affirming. Both Dana and I having been very, uh, much moved out of our former places because we were trying to be, uh, affirming to the LGBTQ community. So, yeah, sometime in 23, we said, well, what? Maybe we need to. Need to start something for us and invite others. And, uh, so it's grown from there, and it is a place to be credentialed, to be licensed if you want. It's a place

for resources. We've started, um, a cohort, uh, just so pastors have a safe space and chaplains and counselors. Those are the three kind of main groups, so that they have a safe space to process the, um, as you know, the really awkward, weird space we all occupy in this, like, post modern age that we live in.

>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to talk to you, uh, and I had. Jonathan. I'm, um, saying that weird. I want to talk to Jonathan today on the show just because I think this is such an interesting development, kind of in light of what you even just said, our context in postmoderny, post modernity, when we think about the decline of institutions. Um, so this is kind of going to be a wide ranging conversation. I hope it'll make sense

to you and for our listeners. Jonathan, um, you kind of share that the big impetus, it sounds like, was folks who've been, to use strong word, like excommunicated, whether intentionally or implicitly from their faith tradition. Um, as this thing has begun to take shape, like, what are the primary, uh, folks? Is it folks who no longer fit in their faith tradition? What are the primary folks who are coming to this network?

>> Jonathan Foster: Sure. It's very interesting because, um, I think that theologically, there are deeper issues than just the queer affirming issue, but, um, that has become kind of the flashpoint. And so I would say we're brand new. I mean, we're only a few months old, and there's. There's maybe 30 or 40 people kind of connected. There's maybe at this point, only like 15, maybe 20, I'm not even sure

licensed through it. Um, but I think as far as I know, everyone, like, that's the main thing, that they either were, yes, officially excluded from their former theological ecclesiological space, or. Or we'll put it this way, they knew their time was coming. I mean, they just, you know, you saw the writing on the wall, and so they're coming because of

that. But, you know, to me, there are that affirming queer theology stuff really just stems from, as far as I'm concerned, like a posture of love, a posture of uncontrolling, non binary, nonviolent, non scapegoating, uh, uncontrolling love. And so, for me, that's really the deeper issue. But a lot of people find themselves here because the other, it gets so much news and so much traction. >> Loren: Yeah. So, practically speaking, if I can ask,

what was the formation look like? Did you all just form a non profit and register as a church type thing? >> Jonathan Foster: Basically, yes. It's funny because I just talked to, uh, a new friend. Her name's Elle pike, she's from Canada. And they're doing something very similar. They started, um, probably about two years ago, but we had to laugh because she's taken two years to do study groups. Uh, she's been meeting with people around the country,

up north, as it were. Um, and just now is getting going on their nonprofit. And I do think the canadian process for nonprofiting is a longer process anyhow. And after we talked a little bit, I just laughed. I said, well, we just typical Americans, we did the opposite. Uh, we immediately formed a 501 z three, and we

pulled. Fortunately, uh, a guy was really capable, uh, and Jennifer as well, and had some resources together to be able to credential and, uh, some really nice processes for, uh, people to walk through that, though I should say, side note for anyone listening who might be interested, like, we really take serious, um, if people have

had, uh, a lot of experience in ministry. So we're not particularly interested if someone has spent a few years in another, uh, space to have to make them go through, jump through a bunch of hoops. >> Loren: Well, let's talk about that. >> Jonathan Foster: Yeah, go ahead.

>> Loren: Yeah, sorry, I was just going to say, let's talk about that. Because certainly in my neck of the woods, at least I'll say, like, those of us who have been through div school and gone through an ordination process, and I think you've gone to seminary, right?

>> Jonathan Foster: That's right. They, uh, don't claim me, but I. >> Loren: Yeah, like, at least speaking for my friends, we kind of get super annoyed at those who get, like, the online ordination, um, and then, like, go do their friend's wedding. So I don't think you guys want to do, like, that kind of thing. Or at least I'll say I hope not. But what's kind of like your.

Is there some, like, guiding principles, some shared theology, that sort of thing that really provides some cohesion? >> Jonathan Foster: Yeah. So a couple of things. First of all, yeah, I agree with you. We're not trying to rubber stamp stuff. Um, and we're trying to, uh, walk the line between that and also not forcing people, like, let's say, in my, uh, for my purposes, you know, I had been a pastor and, you know, have a master's and a doctorate and had been doing this

for basically. Well, yeah, a quarter of a century. Um, I just. I didn't. I wasn't interested in. It is part of the reason I didn't jump into some other denominations. I was just not interested in going through all the hoops again. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah. >> Jonathan Foster: We're trying to kind of walk that line between, um. Yeah, we definitely want to vet people and have integrity with what we're doing, but also not make, um, it a thing where they have to

start over. So theologically, um, where Dana and I come from, um, and, you know, the trajectory of opentable.net work is open and relational theology. And so if people are familiar with that or process theology, um, they're going to already be kind of well on their way to understanding what we're trying to do. And if you go to opentable.net work, you'll see our values.

You'll see. Again, we tried to keep that sparse, but, um, I'm really proud of the way that stuff turned out and some of the things that we're interested in. I think people will catch a sense right away of who we are and what we're trying to do. >> Loren: Yeah. So I think as, uh, this

will release. A couple weeks ago, I did an interview with Ted Smith, who wrote a book about the decline, really, of theological education and the voluntary, voluntary association as the primary kind of sociological institutional model. And he talked about

denominations kind of turning into the word he uses, affinity groups. And obviously there's some real pluses and minuses, I think we'd both agree for that sort of thing. Um, for one, you said it straight out, like, folks who are LGBTQ are on that, um, in that context. Obviously in this context, they're going to find a welcoming and inclusion much more than they might find in some other contexts, or certainly not at

all in certain contexts. But obviously some dangers, uh, of affinity groups, is there can be very much like an echo chamber, um, certainly exclusionary in their own right. So what do you think? Broadly speaking, as we see this kind of trend increase in our culture and even in our faith traditions. Um. This is kind of a hard question, I suppose, but how do you think about that in relation to open table network? >> Jonathan Foster: Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. And we are an affinity group.

At some level. It feels like so many of us. It's so many. I have these conversations every week, sometimes almost every day, where I'm meeting new people who are still. I mean, loosely speaking, like, generally speaking, you would say they're still interested in Jesus, but they've been so underwhelmed and disillusioned, uh, with the institutionalized approach. And so there's hundreds of

thousands, maybe millions. Probably, uh, no, probably millions of believers who are kind of in these interesting waters, and then a bunch of us who used to be, like, leaders or whatever our titles were, who are now trying to figure out how to navigate all this. It's very, very interesting. And, yeah, I think what we've said is, like, tribes are important, but what we're trying to do is not give way to tribalism. So if you can get a tribe without tribalism, I think that's

super important. Psychologically, sociologically, um, emotionally, spiritually. And we're human beings. We're wired to be connected. So it's important to do. But I think moving forward, people who have intellectual integrity about all of this are going to be more and more, um, invited into situations where they're going to hold. They're just going to hold to their, um, denominational ties, their association ties, their affinity groups with, um. You're just

gonna probably hold them more loosely. It doesn't mean that they're less important. It's just. Good Lord, they're so. I mean, pluralism is such a reality in our world now. It doesn't make any sense to try to force love into one small, little pocket. I mean, love works in small, little pockets. I mean, God, uh, you know, by faith, I think God can fit anywhere. I don't think there's any godforsaken space in the cosmos. >> Loren: Right.

>> Jonathan Foster: But I don't think that's the healthiest way forward. So, yeah, we're trying to do the tribe without tribalism. >> Loren: So obviously, like, we've seen the danger of institutions in that there is this just protect the institution of, uh, at all costs. You know, like, we're both sports fans. Like, the NFL has been like, protect the shield. You know? It's, it's, it's protect the league's identity integrity at all costs. Yeah, certainly, um, we've seen that in

denominations. We've seen that in big churches where it's protected the denomination, uh, Catholicism. Protect the church. In big churches, it's protect the pastor's brand. Protect the church's brand. Um, conversely, though, again, I'm thinking about this sociologically, there does need to be some level of commitment or covenanting or stickiness to

keep people together. How do you see, like, you can answer this kind of how you want to, whether it's from an open table perspective, from like a, you know, thinking about, uh, groups of believers organizing in the future, like, what do you think is going to be necessary to kind of maintain that? What I think is an important balance, not leaning too far the other. >> Jonathan Foster: Yeah, it's, that's a, um. It's something to be managed, isn't it? It's not a, it's not a problem to be

fixed once and for all. I think it's constantly ebbing and flowing, in part because our contexts ebb and flow and our culture and our societies and, um, even, you know, to some degree, morality, because it's based on customs and culture and systems. And all of these things change over

time. So I know one of the things that we're trying to do and something I personally believe in is, you know, we're just constantly, as we, as we meet and talk about these things, we're committed to not building ivory towers and giant headquarters and some big place from which all the mandates, uh, are decreed. From, um, instead of that approach, we're trying to say things like, we are here to empower local

missional communities. So basically, if you've got an idea that's working or something you want to do, uh, we're going to try to get behind you rather than the other way around. And that was always, I know I won't be the only one who feels this way. As, you know, there were good things about the denomination I was part of, but it

was always a sense. I said, even when I was a, uh, 20 something and I didn't know anything, I was always like, it's just weird how it feels like the pastors exist for the benefit of the denomination. It should freaking be the other way around. It should not be that way. And, um, so, yeah, we're just trying to keep that in mind. And I think moving forward in general, no matter what group you're part of, because it's the local missional things that really wind up

making so much of the difference. Kind of like politics, you know, we get all wound up about who's going to be the next president. Meanwhile, like, I don't know what the percentage is, but there's a high percentage of. It's never even going to matter whether Trump or Biden is, for me personally, is the next president. Um, it's about state legislation and local and community. So I think keeping that in mind, whatever happens is really important.

>> Loren: Yeah, I'm glad you made that point about. I think some of the clergy I know would agree, who work in, uh, some contexts. So I'm thinking, as someone who grew up independent, in an independent Baptist tradition, where there was no, there was no formal denominational ties, there was very loose networks. Um, and then again, I currently am ordained in a mainline tradition that is pretty

rigid, pretty, uh, organized. And certainly other mainline traditions are even more so with higher barriers of entry and higher regulations. Certainly we've talked about some of the negatives of denominations and institutions. Certainly, um, one positive, I think, would be kind, um, of accountability and, um, just kind of keep an eye on folks. I'm thinking about one of the real problems in, when we think about the SBC, southern Baptist, their denomination, but they're not very top down,

obviously, at least as I understand it. So suddenly there's that big scandal where there are just churches where just turn the blind eye to offenders and passing the buck along, where with a more top heavy approach. I mean, I say it won't work, but obviously happened within Catholicism. But theoretically, right, theoretically, the system is supposed to kind of keep those things from happening. So what do you think?

Um, the dangers are, um, not necessarily just within open table, but in these kind of looser, um. Um, these looser structures, like, whether it be certainly, certainly, um, harm, um, is one way, but, you know, theological. I sure do not love the word, but I think you get it. You can hope get a sense of what I'm saying. Right. Theological cohesion, mate, will say it that way. >> Jonathan Foster: Yeah. It's almost like, pick your poison, man. >> Loren: Right?

>> Jonathan Foster: If you're going to do ministry in the post post modern age that we live in, which is how I kind of reference it, you know, you're. You're gonna have to have a tribe and you, I mean, you don't have to, you can go out and do your own thing, but there are lots of, like we've said positive things associated with it, by the way. There may be a pension associated with it, you know, a paycheck or something like that. Those were the good old days, weren't they?

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Jonathan Foster: Um, you know, and it's. >> Loren: I. >> Jonathan Foster: What I used to always say when I was church planting was when I was a part of the Church of the Nazarene was, uh, you know, we're doctrinally and fiscally accountable to these people, which I always thought, especially as a church plant, when you're starting with nothing was a really healthy thing. And in theory it is until.

Until the doctrine gets all skewed and even the finances at times can get skewed. So it is not an easy. There's no one fix. It's not an easy thing. Um, open table. I mean, I feel good about it in the sense that I can tell you this. It has never been my dream to start a denomination or an association or whatever the heck we call ourselves. That is never a part of my five year, 20 year

plan. Um, it's just emerged because there's obviously such a need for it, and we're in such an, again, awkward, interesting phase. And so here we are, me and my colleagues, and, you know, we have some experience. We've been around. We've got a few intelligent things to say. We've also got a lot of unintelligent things to say. Um, so we just thought, well, we're going to put this together and see if we can help

people. But, yeah, you're asking great questions, because there are no perfect answers to this, for sure. >> Loren: Well, I think what I'm hearing from you, and this is a position that I've been coming to more and more late, is so much as I try to live according to, is just trying to hold this tension between two things. And obviously, like, it's easy to get pulled in one direction or another. Um, and I hear a lot of that in what you're saying.

>> Jonathan Foster: I think so. I think that's the way to live life, personally. I think that's the way more and more people are living life. You know, all of our institutions, whether they're economic, political, religious, national, military, um, they're full of cracks and crevices, actually. They always have been. >> Loren: Right. >> Jonathan Foster: It's just because of the. Probably because of the Internet, because of the fact that we get news, you know,

up to the second news, and we see problems everywhere. It's. It's just in our face. So we're just aware of it more than ever. And it's a really. It's a. I started to say dangerous time. I don't like that word because. Because there's also a lot of potential. It's just a very interesting, potentially good, potentially

bad time. And so for folks out there, men or women who have, or people who are in some kind of nonbinary state there, too, I should say, who have felt a call and an invitation to be, again, a pastor or a counselor, a spiritual director, a leader, a chaplain. Um, yeah. It takes a lot out of you to kind of figure out how do you want to move forward with all of that. And I think living in the tension is a Jesus move. I think it's an embodied love move, and I think it's the only

thing we can really do. We don't need to do it and be disrespectful of other institutions, although, well, I'll say this way, we don't need to be disrespectful of people in other institutions. I personally kind of don't really care that much if we're disrespectful to the institution itself. >> Loren: Sure, I can live with that. Yeah.

>> Jonathan Foster: Some of these systems, man, they've been living off the fat of the hog, so to speak, for, you know, at least 18 centuries since the time of Constantine. Um, and it's just not right. I mean, it took 1800 years for us to figure out slavery was wrong. It took 1900 years to figure out women should vote. It's taken us a couple thousand years to figure out queer folk are like real life human beings. And all of that was perpetrated,

again, good people. But the systems themselves, um, can get really skewed and sideways. Yeah, I keep saying the same thing. We just live in an interesting time. Um, and it takes a lot of courage to keep moving forward in all of this. >> Loren: So let's talk about moving forward. I think, and I imagine you'd probably agree, we're going to continue to see denomination splinter and split and diminish. I mean, I think, frankly, that's going to be a big draw for, like, your open

table. What do you think? I mean, do you think this is a trend? Do you think you're kind of ahead of the curve? What do you see? >> Jonathan Foster: Well, um, I always try to get ahead of the curve, but it seems like, uh, I never quite am. Um, but, um, it seems like I get hit by the curveball. >> Loren: Yeah, no, I totally agree. >> Jonathan Foster: I totally agree. I think, yes, there's going to be

more fractures and splinters and. And on one level, it's nuts, because we have already, depending on, I hear, 30,000, maybe 40,000 just protestant denominations alone, counting eastern orthodox and catholic and all that. Um, so, good lord, we don't need any more splintering. On the other hand, uh, there's something good about it, too, because the splintering splits you up into smaller groups. And again, kind of like the local missionalized, missional

things. And so maybe that's a really. I think there's some really positive stuff about that. I don't see it going anywhere else. There's no chance that there's going to be one big, mega church, unless one big, mega denomination, unless, you know, something like christian nationalism might be able to pull, um, which they already kind of do to some degree. And that's a nauseating thought. >> Paul: Yeah. >> Jonathan Foster: Um, by the way, christian nationalism, for the

listeners, I don't mean just conservative. I mean, uh, there's liberal christian nationalism, too, but the conservative one is kind of the one that's more in your face and kind of more gross, right? Yeah. >> Loren: Um, I want to say one more point on this, too.

I'm thinking about, like, in my conversation with Carol Howard and also with Ted Smith, the point came up about how, especially with some denominations, and you kind of alluded to this, like, there's so many hoops to jump through that,

um, as the pastor, as a profession, becomes more and more, I should say, less and less financially sustainable, um, I do think it's important for us to have credentialing, to use that word, um, ordaining models that don't require

an M div or don't require seminary debt. So I think that's another reason why your model is intriguing, because I think it's gonna be important, you know, to have other models or avenues to some kind of ministry credentialing that aren't gonna require, you know, such, um, rigid standards. >> Jonathan Foster: I know it's tricky. Um, we gotta have standards. >> Loren: It is tricky. >> Jonathan Foster: It is trick, especially if you're leading people. There's so

many needs. I mean, to be a. We'll, uh, just say spiritual leader, for lack of a better phrase, to be that in any day and age, for sure. But the day and age we live in, it's complicated, man. There's so much mimetic dysfunction out there. There's so many politics. There's so much, you know, um, spiritual manipulation and weirdness. And people come into your practice or your church that are strange, and they project all this stuff on you. Um, not to mention, like, you got to have ways to figure

out how to read your sacred texts, in our case, the Bible. And if you don't have some education, um, you know, we'd all like. We'd all love to say, well, love will just lead us. But as

you and I both know, there's some really complicated stuff. So, yeah, just trying to walk that line between encouraging education, but not incurring all this debt, um, figuring out ways to, to stay educated and, and not, uh, have to do kind of the traditional route, which is what you're saying that people have done and have put them in a really tough position financially. So, yeah, it's interesting. >> Loren: Whoever's listening to this is probably like, are these guys going to make up

their mind? Like, they're talking all over the place, like on both sides. And I think that's really the case. Like, we're trying to acknowledge, like, the complexity of this. And like, you know, like, as those words were coming out of my mouth, I'm like, oh, man. But I do really value theological education. I do really value rigid ethics and ethical guidelines. But also it's a both and tension thing, I think has been the theme of this conversation.

>> Jonathan Foster: Absolutely. One good thing is we live now in this, um, time period, obviously, with the Internet and so many resources. I mean, this is unprecedented in the history of humanity. So people can get educated now in ways that, if they wanted to, could be a lot less expensive in the past. Part of the problem is, do we recognize those people? Do we recognize, for example, and that's part of the reason why@opentable.net.

Work. We're not making people who've pastored for 20 years jump through a bunch of hoops because we want to recognize the fact that experience that accounts for something, it means something that you can't get in a seminary classroom, um, or, you know, from a traditional thing. So,

yeah, it's just muddy. I'll muddy the waters even more by saying that, um, there's got to be ways moving forward where we can, uh, informally formalize the way someone can learn theologically, psychologically, emotionally, and, um, yeah, we're kind of open to those things at opentable. We're trying to play catch up with a lot of it. But, um, I think that's a really interesting discussion. >> Loren: Yeah, it is.

I want to shift the conversation because I feel like we could stay in these muddy waters forever, but I want to shift the conversation towards, I think, a subplot or a sub theme of this. Ah, and that's to grief. And it's even hard to talk about, I think. Ah, and you're well acquainted with grief. You have a book you wrote on grief. You mentioned the loss of your daughter and how that shaped your family's

life. I'm thinking about this as I wrestle with my own grief, um, just thinking about my own professional career in ministry, or it seems like a lack thereof, moving forward I think about folks like yourself who committed so many years to a, uh, denomination or traditional, only to find themselves at odds or even actively transitioned out of those traditions or churches or what. Have you, uh, have you encountered such a situation at an open table?

Um, whether you want to speak to this personally or professionally, uh, share more about that, if you would. >> Paul: Yeah. >> Jonathan Foster: Thank to like you for asking, and thank you for asking it in that way, because, Loren, I think that is a big piece of what is going on across the country. I mean, it's not like I travel a lot, but I'm in and out, and I talk to quite a few people in a lot of different

situations. And I would say one of the, on the, on the short list of common denominators that is connecting a lot of american christian spiritual sojourners at this point is this idea of grief. It's the idea that this thing just did not go like we thought it was going to go. Um, the dream of whatever that church was or that pastor it was, or even if you haven't been a pastor, especially when you get to be my age, I'm a little bit older than you, but I'm in my

fifties. I'm a grandpa now, by the way. Got a two month old granddaughter. Um, did I show you a picture last week of my granddaughter? >> Loren: I don't know. We'll have to do it here when we're done. I probably should have. Yeah. >> Jonathan Foster: But, um, when you get to be my age, it's funny, my partner and I, we talk all the time. Uh, she was just saying something about this the other night, but, uh, how, you know, when you've been serving in the church for lots of years and

you get to be our age, you're like, everyone's pretty much done. They're like, they just, they're so tired. They've had it. They've been through so many battles. Add on top of all the craziness that's happened in our world over the last 1020 years, and then if you add any personal stuff like she and I have been through, um, yeah, you just realize that life is like, you go from one expectation to the next, and, um, it's very frustrating. So I

think a lot of people are grieving. They're grieving the loss, and you don't have to have been. I hope you haven't been someone like me who's lost a kid. You know, you may have lost a marriage, or it just may have been death of a dream or death of the way you thought things were going to go. What is interesting is, well, there's a lot of things, but essentially Jesus said this whole dealing with lost thing, it's a prerequisite for joy because he said, blessed are those who mourn.

So maybe, again, back to the theme we already kind of talked about. Maybe we're living in a day and age when it's both deeply troubling and problematic and hurtful, but also deeply replete, full of the possibility of blessing. Because if we can, just like, there's this fine line between. Hmm hm. What do I want to say? Fine line between, like, complaining about something and I'm hesitant about that because

I'm, uh. I think there are times when you complain. And trust me, you know, having been through what we've been through, I've, I've complained a few days. But there's a fine line between that and a, uh, lament. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Paul: Mourning. >> Jonathan Foster: Um, and, you know, also nihilism. And by the way, not to plug my book, but indigo, the color of grief, really is an attempt at one level to try to be

intellectually honest. Sorry, I think that's a fourth or fifth time I said that phrase. >> Loren: No, it's fine. Yeah. >> Jonathan Foster: I was trying to be honest with how you can go really hard one way or the other. Like, when you go through loss, you can really

double down on the old. Like, if you're a Christian, you can double down on the old, maybe holiness codes or, you know, behavioral modification and go really lean hard into God's control, or you can go crazy the other way and nihilistic and say, you know, God's. There is no God. And. Yeah, and I can have a measure of respect for both. I probably have, huh. Maybe a little more respect for the latter than the former, but it feels like living in the tension between the two is where you kind of have

to be. And I. We're just not. We're just not great at that. Our, uh, our institutions haven't conditioned us to do that. But I can't blame it all in the institutions because personally, you know, I, you know, it's just not what I signed up for with life. You know, I was looking for more black and white kind of really, really, really positive answers versus all this gray.

But, yeah, I think you're right to frame it in, um, a perspective of grief because I think a lot of people are struggling with that. >> Loren: And I think what makes this so hard, if I can be honest, is like, as clergy, we're the trained caregiver in most contexts that we're in a, and then b, because our profession is. Also tends to be tied to our spiritual community. When we leave that profession, we tend to leave that spiritual community. Um, like my daughter, who's like a

preteen, she's like, dad, we've changed churches so much. I'm like, because I work for a church or have. That's a hard dynamic, isn't it? >> Jonathan Foster: Yeah. Just adding to the complexity that we already, man, people tuning in who aren't pastors, they're like, they should be so grateful they're not pastors right now. Yeah. Another thing I thought of when you said that, too. Um, we're caregivers. And then to be pushed out, you know, kicked out in my case,

officially, and lots of other places unofficially. It is a. It's a mind trip. We're also. A lot of us are kind of like, when you're clergy, you play, like, a meaning making role in your, uh, community. So when bad things happen, you help people make meaningful. >> Loren: Right. >> Jonathan Foster: Well, what's crazy is when bad things happen, like, if it's bad enough, like, uh, for example, in my situation, my entire meaning making system, you know, just kind of fell apart,

right? So now I was trying to create meaning in the middle of chaos, right? And the poor people who had to come to my church, I mean, I say poor people, some of them were really, really great and, uh, learned a lot. Um, that's a whole interesting dynamic, too. And I think a lot of meaning making clergy people types, counselor chaplain types are in that

position. Their lives, personally are being unwound sometimes and really beautiful, but the beauty is always attached to the dark, really bad stuff, too. And so to navigate all that at the same time, you're trying to create meaning for others. Holy smoke. What a trip that is, man. >> Loren: This is tough stuff, but I think good stuff, and I hope it's resonating with the listeners. Let me ask you one more question here before we move

on. So, again, I'm going to refer back to my conversation with Ted Smith, and he talked about the model of a chaplain as being a really future model because it signifies you as a spiritual leader, but not necessarily tied to a institution. Uh, like a pastor doesn't have to be, but it's often tied to a church, often in a specific church where a, uh, chaplain, for instance, the hospital chaplain, even a corporate chaplain, may or may not work for that actual institution. Do you

see? Have you thought about how opentable might be a part of that, or what that model even might look like, uh,

of a spiritual leader? Not necessarily tied to an institution. >> Jonathan Foster: Yeah, that's very interesting. Um, I don't know if I've formally thought through that. Informally. I think so because it's kind of my world and your world, too. We kind of are in it all the time. Some of it is like, your response to, like, well, what kind of title do you want? And what is the connotation of that title? >> Paul: Or.

>> Loren: Right. Cause, like, I wanna call myself a pastor because, like, I think pastorally, and I care for people pastorally, but pastors are, by and large connected. Like, they're seen as being connected to a church in a leadership role. And that's not where I am right now. >> Paul: Right. >> Jonathan Foster: I think this speaks to the need for expanded imagination around our language. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah.

>> Jonathan Foster: And language is, you know, it's important. We got to have it. Obviously, it's fundamental to who we are, but we just get so locked into certain things. So, uh. Uh, while we're expanding our theological, um, paradigms and perspectives and imagination, we should. The language is all a part of it, too. I agree. Like, it's funny, I've been a pastor most of my life. I still do pastoral things. I still talk to people every single day.

People text me or email me, message me. By the way, you can't facebook me right now because Facebook just suspended my account, so. >> Loren: Oh, man. >> Jonathan Foster: Pretty interesting. Yeah. Um, but. But I. But I'm not really a pastor, like chaplain. I totally agree with what Ted and what you're saying, I think. But also that word, to me, the connotation. And it's probably just my own stuff. Probably. It's probably a great word, but it seems passive in some sense, some senses.

>> Loren: Yeah, I think that's a feeling like that. Yeah. >> Jonathan Foster: But then again, I don't need an aggressive. Like, I used to be part of a pretty relatively evangelical church planning network that, in retrospect, now that I have some years behind me, I realize was really informed more by competitive american exceptionalism and toxic masculinity than it is anything else. So if I had to choose between passive and that, I'd go passive. So I'm trying to come up with a

name. I saw something today where the guy said he was a, um. Get this. He said he was a solv'em probbler, a solvent. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Jonathan Foster: And I thought, how do you spell. >> Loren: That, then solve em. >> Jonathan Foster: S o l v e m m. Probler. Probler. >> Loren: Oh, I was thinking that was like s o u l sol them. >> Jonathan Foster: Problem. It could be, but it's a takeoff, obviously. Problem solver. He's a solvent problem. And I'm like, okay, I

like that, but that's just silly. Like, I used to call myself, um, what do I used to call myself? Oh, the most recent church plant, I called myself lead follower. Ten years I did that. And that always led to interesting discussions. Before that, I was spiritual environmentalist at the church plant. Before that, yeah. So I'm always playing with that, trying to figure out what these words mean and trying to break out of the stereotypical

molds of what these things mean. But the greater point is plurality is a reality in our world. We need lots of people in all different walks of life who are feeling esteemed by their tribes, also feeling self esteemed, feeling esteemed by God and love to step forward and to lead. As much as I have, uh, a conflicted relationship with the word lead or leadership, but

that stuff's really important. And, um, so we all just need to step up and try to figure out how to create those spaces and those names and those titles. >> Loren: Well, it goes back to our theme of earlier, holding that tension, holding that balance between the two. Right? >> Jonathan Foster: Yep. Yep. >> Loren: Well, usually I build on a break here, but I kind of want to just stay with this momentum and ask you this silly

question, Jonathan. Um, uh, because like, you are in some ways like the highest level denominational official I've ever interviewed. >> Jonathan Foster: That's really funny, man, and really sad. >> Loren: No, and I'm actually hoping to get my denominational, uh, lead person on here soon, but I'm kind of being loose with the term denomination and that's, I guess that's what I'm making a play on words here is that you're co founder of the denominations or you're like co president

of the denomination. So this is the question. Um, if you expanded your influence and you were some might call it a pope for a day, what would you want to do with that influence for a day? >> Jonathan Foster: Yeah, well, first of all, it's pretty funny. When we started this thing, I told my friend Dana, I'll, uh, help, however. But I wasn't going to be the president, so he's the president on the papers, so he's the official guy. Um, and

I'm helping him. I just say that to make sure, if Dana listens to this, I have absolved myself of all responsibility. That's pretty funny. What would I want to do for the day? It would have to be something around, like just helping people re approach the concept of love. I think that the essence of God is love. I think it's biblical. I think philosophically, it makes the most sense. I think, practically speaking, it makes the most sense. What's been

interesting in my journey? Well, there's a lot of things that have been interesting, but one thing that's been interesting is I didn't realize I was doing this, but when I set out on this new journey, I actually, in many ways, was redefining love. In the old days, love was. I'm not really sure what it was. It had something to do with hierarchy and sacrifice and doing the right thing and morality, and some of that still plays

in. But now when I think of love, I go, it's this uncontrolling, non binary, nonscape, goating, nonviolent energy that's in a relationship with God and with others, and it's meant for good and blessing in the world. And every single one of those words are pretty well vetted in my life. I mean, I've written some books about them. I mean, they may not be good books, but, I mean, I've written. I've put some words behind them, and I've spoken a few times about them.

Um, and I've logged a lot of hours staring at the ceiling and again, taking hikes and walks in all parts of the country, trying to figure out what I think. And so it's fascinating. Each one of those things are really, um, important concepts. And so if I had a. Well, you're asking if I could make a mandate. Well, that's completely. It's completely antithetical to open a relational theology. If this is a consensual thing, then I can't make a mandate.

But I would highly encourage, invite everyone into deeper and deeper instantiations of love. >> Loren: You would seek to persuade them, right? >> Jonathan Foster: I would lay out the lure, yes. I would invite them and persuade them to do my best to persuade them to think even more deeply, to throw off the shackles of the myth of redemptive sacrifice, and to lean into the freedom and the grace of love. >> Loren: Well, this is good. Uh, you really leaned

into that quite well. So thank you for engaging that question. So, since you mentioned your books here, I do want to give you some opportunity to plug the books, because I've had the privilege of reading. Um, actually, uh, I think all three of your books here, right. The reconstructionist. Um, what's the second one? >> Jonathan Foster: Theology of consent.

>> Loren: Theology of consent. And then the one you just, uh, released in go, which I just want to say, I don't know if this is good or bad, Jonathan, for you, but I have not fully engaged it, because it's so raw and deep, um, that I've had to flip through it and look at stuff, and I don't know if I've been in a space where I can fully engage. So I guess it speaks to, I think, the richness and depthness of that book. But, uh, say what

else you. Anything else you want to say about your works there? >> Jonathan Foster: Thank you for inviting me to say stuff. Um, yeah, you're not the only one who's done that with Indigo. I've had a lot of even closer friends who have picked it up and even family members. Yeah, actually, my sister just told me a couple weeks ago. And it's funny because she's always one of my biggest fans. I mean, I tell you what, Loren. Everyone needs a big sister in their life who's a big

fan. And of. She has, um, all three of my sisters have been big fans. But anyhow, she told me a couple weeks ago she was an early reader back before it was published, but she hasn't read it yet. And it sits by her bedside because she's just got to get in the right frame of mind now. It's probably not good. I'm scaring people. Um, I will say it's on audio, so that might be easier. It might be easier to listen to it than turn pages.

>> Paul: Um. >> Jonathan Foster: But, yeah, that's, um, been an important book for me. Reconstructionist was important. That gives a little insight into how I kind of rewound when I decided I wasn't just going to deconstruct, but I wanted to reconstruct. And I decided to do it around three

basic things. Well, I didn't decide. I realized after the fact that three things had basically happened to me, and that is that, um, all my questions I was having, I kept running through these three filters. One was mercy is greater than sacrifice. And number two is people are greater than the text. And number three is love is greater than fear.

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Jonathan Foster: What I discovered was every question I had theologically, every question I had about human sexuality, um, about, uh, omnipotence, the bible, all these things, eschatology. When I worked all of my questions through those three filters, and when I came out on love, people and mercy, that's the kind of theology I wanted. So that's the reconstructionist. That's with choir publishing. And then theology of consent is, uh, back with

sacrosage. And that's about. Yeah, mimetic theory as it. It's me talking about how I think memetic theory is wired and then how I think open and relational theology is wired. And then I crossed the wires, and I watched the smoke fly and try to come up with something of depth there. I also have a nice little book with a snappy title, questions about sexuality, that got me uninvited for my denomination. >> Loren: Rolls off the tongue there.

>> Jonathan Foster: Just rolls right off the tongue. There's so many words on the COVID you can't even quite fit it on the COVID But, yeah, so thanks for asking about the books. >> Loren: Yeah. And I'll just give a plug. I know we're running long here, but, like the reconstructionist, what was it? Mercy over sacrifice, love over text. The third one. >> Jonathan Foster: Again, people are greater than the text. Uh, mercy is greater than sacrifice, and love is greater than fear.

>> Loren: Yeah, love. Great. Uh, I think those are really, really solid foundational pieces. And hopefully, I don't think I'm misrepresenting you. Having read the book, you're not throwing out sacrifice or the text or fear. You're saying, that's right. If you're saying, again, to that balance intentionally, if we got to choose one of the over, like, we choose mercy over sacrifice, we choose people over text. Because, again, like Jesus said, I think the Sabbath is meant to serve the people,

not people, Sabbath. Right. >> Jonathan Foster: Right now, it's a really important point. Like, even with sacrifice, what it required me to do, and I do more. I show my work in theology of consent. Um, on this, it required me to go back and to think in terms of, well, okay, some sacrifice is good. Like, there's altruistic sacrifice that's given your life away. But what it boiled down to, the long and short of it, was consent became the thing for me. I was like, oh, agency, empowerment,

individual. Like, consent. Like, God's not forcing anybody to sacrifice, but love will invite you. And when you're invited and you consent to it, it'll take you down an interesting journey. But if you don't, love's not going to forsake you. So it's that kind of stuff. And you're right. I'm not trying to disregard all the other stuff. I'm just saying, I don't know. There's a healthier way to work through these things, Jeff. >> Loren: Yeah, well, this is good stuff. Uh, we got to get

going here. So how can people connect with you? Give your website. That's the thing. >> Jonathan Foster: Sure. Thanks. Jonathan Foster online.com is the website. They can go there, find out about the books. They can sign up for my substack newsletter. They can find out about the work we're doing in Haiti, and, uh, any number of things they can find out there. >> Loren: And the super titled podcast Jonathan Foster.

>> Jonathan Foster: That's right, they can find out about Jonathan Foster podcast with the coolest probably name in the history of all podcasts. >> Loren: Well, I really appreciate your time and the conversation. Always leave folks with the word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. >> Jonathan Foster: Thank you. >> Paul: Um, thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast. To learn more about Loren or the podcast, visit future dash

christian.com. One more thing before you go, do us a favor and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're feeling especially generous, leave a review. It really helps us get the word out to more people about the podcast. The Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain arts and resonate media. Our episodes were mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is provided by Paul Romaglevitt. Thanks and go in peace.