May Young on Biblical Lament as Resistance, Resilience, and Hope

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond, Jr. Is in conversation with

Dr. May Young. Dr. Young is Associate professor of Biblical Studies and chairs the Department of Biblical Studies, Christian Ministries, Intercultural Studies and Philosophy at Taylor University. She has contributed to several volumes focused on Lament, including Reading the Psalms, Theologically and World Christianity and COVID 19

Discourses and Perspective. She is a member of the Evangelical Theological Society and the Society of Biblical Literature and serves on the Board of Directors of the Institute of Biblical Research as well as the editorial board for Sacred Roots. A reminder. Before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and

Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro uh.com with comments, questions, or ideas for future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern the future of the church. >> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond, Jr. And today I am pleased to be joined by Dr. Mae Young. Hello and welcome to the show. >> May Young: Thank you for having me.

>> Loren: Yeah, thank you for being here. Looking forward to having this conversation. Uh, anything else you want to say about yourself before we begin? >> May Young: Um, let's see. I guess to let our hearers know a little bit about me. I enjoy hiking. Um, I enjoy, uh, action movies. Um, and then as for TV shows, I kind of like the crime shows that are on prime time, like the FBI and cis. I don't know why I'm drawn to action and crime. Maybe that's why I need to lament.

>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. So are you going to see the new. When does the new Mission Impossible come out? Are you going to see that? >> May Young: Uh, yeah. You know what? I think I'd like to, um. I think it's gonna come out, actually. Isn't it coming out later this month or so? I don't know. I didn't really follow that, but yes, I probably like to watch. >> Loren: Do you have, like, a top three top favorite like action movies?

>> May Young: Well, you know, I used to really like the Marvel franchise. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. >> May Young: But in the more recent movies, I don't feel like they have been that good. Although I heard that the most recent one was supposed to be good, so I don't know. I have to yet watch that and see. >> Loren: Yeah. What is that the camera, what it's called? >> May Young: I actually don't remember. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good.

Um, well, lest we get too deep into action movies in the MCU universe here, share, if you would, just about your faith journey, what that looked like in the past and what looked like today. >> May Young: Sure. You know, I think there was a turning point in my high school years, um, when in the past I felt that, um, being a Christian, you know, I saw myself as a Christian, but I didn't really, uh, see myself fully surrendered in every aspect of my life

to the Lord. Um, and that particularly was maybe in the area of, uh, even vocation at that time in high school. Um, and so there was a turning point in my life where, you know, I had my own plans of what I wanted for my future. And I was listening to a sermon, and it wasn't anything like spectacular or anything, but it was just the content was the pastor was just really challenging me, saying, you know, where are you investing? Are you investing in eternal things or just things in

this life? And I had to be honest, and I felt like I wasn't really investing in eternal things. I was just thinking more about the future and what that might look like here and now. Um, and that was when the Lord challenged me to say, you know, if I called you to a certain vocation, would you surrender that to me? Uh, even if it's going to the mission field or, uh, doing some kind of ministry? And at that point, you know, that had never crossed my mind, and I kind of.

It was probably one of those fears like, oh, no, he's going to call me in the mission field. >> Loren: Right, right. >> May Young: But I had to come to that place and I had to say, you know, um, this life is not my own, and it belongs to the Lord. And so I said, lord, if you. Whatever you want, if you're calling me to the mission field, that's

fine, or however you wanted to do it. And that took me to a turning point in my life to realize that even my future and my vocation, everything belongs to God. >> Loren: Uh, well, thanks for sharing that. What has been some spiritual practices, some spiritual disciplines that have kind of helped you, you're willing to share? >> May Young: Sure. I think um, probably in the more recent years, I would say, the practice of fasting. >> Loren: Uh-huh.

>> May Young: You know, I feel like that, you know, um, living in the US and having a lot, uh, at our disposal. And I love food. Fasting is never easy. You know, fasting is just, you know, even though I do, if no matter how long I practice it, it's kind of like. It's always just hard to not, you know, uh, to kind of just say, you know, I'm going to put that aside to seek the Lord

and. But I feel like it's very meaningful and has taught me about self control, um, taught me about, you know, um, not necessarily always having my way or, um, always just satisfying my flesh, um, and knowing how to wait on the Lord, um, and wait on his timing. >> Loren: Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate you sharing that. That's really, uh, enlightening. Well, we're here to talk with Mae about her book, Walking with God. Excuse me. Walking with God

through the Valley. Recovering the Purpose of Biblical Lament. And I suppose we'll ask this question just to get things started to kind of boilerplate. Like, tell me about what inspired the book. What made you want to write it? >> May Young: Sure. Uh, what inspired me, I guess, was actually a very difficult time in my own life. Um, which, you know,

I think up to that. Up to, I guess, a certain, you know, growing up in the church, you know, I knew that, you know, suffering is part of the Christian life and difficult times. But, uh, when I experienced a time when I was a young wife and we were church planting and my, um, ex husband was unfaithful, it was like I didn't know what to do. Um, felt like the rug was pulled underneath my feet, and I didn't know what life

would be like in the future. And everything just was very scary and very, you know, difficult and just. I just came to a point where I didn't know what was next. And, um, it just almost felt like, you know, I was looking over a cliff in some ways, like, what do I do now? What happens now? What happens in life? And, you know, it's not what I expected

in any way. Um, about life, marriage, future, and having to grapple with that, um, and my own faith and God's faithfulness, um, and just really leaning into God during that time. Um, I really. That was actually the first time that I even thought about lament, because I really never even thought about the concept of lament. We never really heard about that growing up in the church, to be honest. Like, I never. I didn't Even know about the concept, really.

Um, but I found myself during that time just, like, praying and reading the psalms and, like, crying and, you know, for, like, that was the only thing that would actually bring comfort into my heart. >> Loren: Wow. >> May Young: And I was just thinking, like, you know, what happens? Like, no one prepares you for what happens when you're going through difficult times and you wake up the next day and nothing changes.

Uh, or you wake up the next day again and nothing changes, because you're always, always, like, hoping for something to change and something to be better in some ways. But how do you handle it when something is broken and it's not changing? You know, um, do we process. How do we process that kind of pain and doubt and how do we trust God? And I really found that during that time of struggle, that God was closer to me

than ever. Um, and that he was, you know, uh, like, when I felt like I hit rock bottom and he was the rock. >> Loren: Wow. >> May Young: And, um. And I. And I was. And I. And then when I thought about that, I was like, how come I never really learned about this in the church? You know, how come, you know, this is not something that we talk about when, you know, uh.

Because something that I mentioned in my book is, like, sometimes a lot of times what we hear about is after people have gone through difficult times, they talk about how they've overcome. But how about when you're in that time? You know, how about when you don't feel like you're overcoming and you feel like, is there something wrong with me that I'm not overcoming? Is there something wrong with me that nothing's changing? Does God not love me? Is, you know, is something happening? Is

this judgment? You, uh, know, like, all these questions that come into our heads instead of really, like, realizing in the midst of our suffering and pain that, you know, there's something called biblical lament that God wants us to come to him, to pray and to leave these pains and process these pains in his presence in the midst of it, instead of just waiting for, you know, that. That triumphant, you know, overcoming.

>> Loren: Yeah. You shared so much there. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. You know, I'm struck by something you said. I'm not sure if. If I'm reminded of something from your book or from another book. This idea of, like, overcoming so much of. Especially, like, modern worship songs, right? Are this. Like, there's no, like, I feel like you write about this, but there's no, like, lamet songs. Like, they're all, like, I've overcome songs. And that's a hard place for that.

>> May Young: There's not a place for that. >> Loren: Yeah, right. >> May Young: I think that's great, and I think people do need that, but I think we also need to know what happens in that process too. And I think people don't know. We just want to jump to the overcoming. I think that's what. And then when we don't feel that, then we feel there's something wrong with us because we don't know that process. >> Loren: Yes. So good.

Well, let's talk about, we're kind of talking around this, Talk through what is biblical lament and how it offers, you know, a way to process suffering, injustice, pain, disappointment, all that. And I think that's what's so powerful. >> May Young: Sure. I, I, I think that why I particularly say biblical lament is because I feel like the concept of lament has been more popularized, and I'm thankful for that. And I, I'm, I'm grateful that there's more talk about lament than

ever before. You know, like I said, growing up in the church, I never even heard of the word. But now people, because of probably all the things that we're facing all over the world, that lament is something that's brought to the foref. But why I talk about recovering the concept or the practice or the purpose of biblical lament is because I feel like, um, biblical lament goes beyond this general understanding of merely expressing the reality of

suffering. And what I state in my book is that I think biblical lament is an act of faith.

Um, at the end of the day, it's crying out to God honestly, and our suffering and our injustice and our anger and our sin and disappointments and griefs and doubts, you know, um, so that, you know, biblical lament invites God into our struggle, um, and into our pain and doubts, and it helps us, sets us on, um, this path to become people of resilience, you know, so that we're not just stuffing our pain or pretending like we're fine when we're not, but actually

honestly dealing with them in the presence of God. >> Loren: Yeah. Such good, uh, such good stuff here.

I want to move to this because I'm thinking about, again, thinking about even the last several years, how there's been societally so much pain and injustice and disappointment and suffering. You write in the book about lament being prophetic. Excuse me, prophetic and an, uh, active resistance, which again, I found interesting, because we don't think of lament as such. So talk more through that because I think it's such a powerful image. >> May Young: Sure. So There are kind of two separate

things here, so maybe I'll talk about them a little bit separately. So lament as, like, an act of resistance first, let's say that. So in one way, I think that lament, and this I address in one of my chapters, um, about the purpose of lament. And I think lament is a way for us to have a voice. It gives us voice in our pain. So in some ways, it's like giving agency, like, even in the midst of pain. So when we're suffering, a lot of times we feel powerless and voiceless, um,

but through. And almost like a victim, you know, but through lament, we're reclaiming our emotions rather than giving pain and suffering the final word. And, you know, I actually think about this. This is probably really relevant in the sense that right now there's, like, in the news, there's this hearing with, you know, Sean Combs or P. Diddy. >> Loren: Yes. >> May Young: Um, and his ex girlfriend, Cassie Ventura. And I think, you know, it

gets it. You know, the violence and the things that, uh. It's just terrible. And I think in the midst of, like, testifying and recounting the violence and suffering that this woman had to endure, she actually calls herself a survivor, not a victim. >> Loren: Uh-huh. >> May Young: And there's this shift of moving from, like, this passivity to more of a

resilience, so this process of healing. So it's not just seeing herself as one who received harm, abuse, but she's actually facing this, testifying to this, actually having the courage to say these things and to seek justice. And so I think there's a part of that that's, you know, giving voice to her pain, giving agency, uh, in this kind of lament and an act of resistance in some ways, to the things that she's gone through. But

also. And this is where the, you know, it's prophetic in the sense that lament is talked about in the prophets that we see in the Old Testament. The Old Testament prophets call out, like, specific injustices, uh, throughout the Old Testament. And in that calling out, they're also igniting this imagination for the community, for what. What they could be if they stood for real, true justice and mercy

that God calls for. So instead of, like, normalizing the systematic, like, or systemic injustice and turning a blind eye, you know, for which is what people were doing in the Old Testament. >> Loren: Right. >> May Young: But acknowledging through lament, that helps the community to kind of stand, uh, with a prophetic voice with those who are suffering. So it's a call out to the community for change.

And for advocating for those who are suffering. So it not only gives voice to the sufferer, but it also is giving voice to the community, to call out the injustice, to call out the evil, instead of just turning a blind eye. Because I think sometimes when there's so much that is going around us that we feel almost paralyzed, like, what can we do in all of this? You know, how to. And then our. Our emotions actually almost turn to apathy.

Like, we just so. We just don't even know what to do. We're so overcome. But here in lament, you know, when we're lamenting together, we're lamenting before God. There's a way for us to process those emotions in some ways and to call out the injustice and say that we see it instead of just you kind of bearing it away. >> Loren: Yeah, I want to come back to that, but I. I do want to ask about this, because you talked about apathy,

and I think. I don't know, maybe this is maybe in my own faith tradition or faith nurturing, where I. I feel like I, uh, really resonated with this part. You write about Christian faith. Not meant to being about stoic acceptance. And I know stoic acceptance is not necessarily apathy, but I feel like they're. I feel like they're related. Talk more about that.

>> May Young: Sure. Uh, I, uh, think, you know, when I'm talking about it in that way, I think I'm trying to address here that God created us as human beings who feel. So we're not robots. God never created us to be robots. We're not called to, like, stuff our feelings. >> Loren: Right. >> May Young: In fact, you know, Jesus invites us, like in Matthew, you know, 11 to come, you know, all who are weary and

burdened, and he can give us rest. And so here he's inviting us, you know, um, and then we have examples throughout Scripture that show, like, saints that are struggling and walking out doubts and pain, and they're walking it out with God. And so, you know, I think here, you know, coming back to this, you know, giving, uh, voice to a person in pain, it's, like, acknowledged. It's in the acknowledgment that we actually find healing. So we can't deal with what we don't

acknowledge. So I liken that. I think even in our book. In my book, that word says, you know, like, even in, like, physical pain, like, a lot of times, if we're not really, um. If we're just kind of stoic, like, I'm okay. I'm fine. I don't have any Health issues. That doesn't make it go away. You know, we still see the doctor, but sometimes when we don't, when we don't acknowledge it,

it's not going to like, miraculously disappear. In fact, sometimes it's going to get worse or it's going to fest, um, and that we actually have to go to the doctor. We have to kind of uncover and show the doctor what our symptoms are, kind of acknowledging that, bringing that out so that we can actually, um, know how to that path forward. Because if you don't acknowledge it, you're not going to deal with it. You're just going to stuff it away.

And there's studies that I talk about in the book that says people who are stuffing away their pain, it's gonna creep up in other ways, like things. It's like we think it's gonna go away because we don't experience it, but it's gonna come up. Maybe not right now. We might have some reprieve, but maybe years later. There's people

that, you know, that I didn't even write in my book. There's. There's one woman who, who had this trauma that she had, you know, just stuffed away because she didn't want to face it in her life. And then later on in life she had this like, illness that was debilitating and she didn't know what, what happened to her. No, the doctors couldn't figure out what was happening, um, until she just really had to deal with some of the things, this trauma that was in her that was able to help

her to come to a place of recovery. And it's just like we don't even realize, you know, we're connected. We're whole body people, you know, so our emotions are connected to every part of our body too. And so, like, you know, um, if there's things that we're stuffing away, that doesn't make it go away. We actually have to be people who deal with it so that it's not just about, you

know, that apathy. Because at that moment, apathy might feel like, better, because if we can handle it better, but we're not really dealing with something and it's just gonna come back on us in the future. >> Loren: Uh, so, yeah, really good stuff here. Really appreciate your perspectives. I want to come back to this. You talk about in the book how lament can help communities and churches stand alongside those in pain. So

certainly talk about that. But I'm also intrigued by this idea that you pointed out about how lament is prophetic in that it ignites imagination. I'm thinking about it in this way of, you know, certainly we talk a lot about the kingdom of God, you know, doing, uh, kingdom work, uh, helping the kingdom of God. Certainly different churches have different theologies around how they might understand that in

distinct implications. Right. But I'm intrigued by that idea of a church being something that can ignite a community's or people's imagination of. Of more to come, of better. What else do you want to say about that? >> May Young: Yeah, And I think that in that too, we have to acknowledge of what we see now. And I think that's where lament comes in.

That we need to not, um, cloister ourselves away from everything, um, but actually recognizing what's happening and acknowledging, um, that as a body, um, and recognizing too, that as a body, that even though individually we may not be facing something, um, that we don't just exist as individuals in the body, there's a corporate body. And, uh, you know, one of the things that I think, um, I would like to see more in our church today is more of a corporate mentality, um, in the body of

Christ. And I think we've become too individualistic, um, and even in the sense of church attendance, you know, people feeling like, I don't need church. You know, I'm good just meeting God, or I can just watch online. >> Loren: Right. >> May Young: Why do I need to go to church? Um, and so we're really kind of downplaying, um, the function of the body. And the Bible is very specific, that we're the body of Christ and where to stand together. We're not to stand

aloof when another part is suffering. And so I think corporate lament helps us to stand together, helps us to acknowledge what's happening too, so that we can ignite a greater vision for the kingdom of God. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. So good.

Uh, I want to, uh. Let me ask you this quote. You have this quote. Why, uh, is lament sometimes the only and most appropriate response? Talk more about that if you can. >> May Young: Sure. Um, I think I wrote that in, um, highlighting situations of evil and justice. And I think, uh, why it's the only response is because during those times, we're trying to reconcile, uh, this injustice that we see in the world. And then we are trying to reconcile that with who God

is and his character. You know, like, why is God allowing this? And so I think that, you know, lament is the only and most appropriate response because it helps us to bring it before God. Um, because it helps us to also, uh, acknowledge that we trust God and That we trust God enough to cry out to him, and that, you know, sometimes evil is so appalling and so terrible that only, like I say this in my book, is that only the infinite goodness, you know, of God and power of God can bring

about this ultimate defeat. You know, and so it's God who can do this. And so sometimes we feel so powerless, uh, within ourselves when we see these things that we lament is acknowledging that we in ourselves is, uh, we're powerless to do it. But the lament is a cry for change. It's naming the evil, it's naming the pain, you know, that, that we see all around us. But it's also knowing that there's someone we can turn to.

It's. It's a hopeful engagement with God in honest faith, you know, so we're kind of, you know, um, bringing this and participating and asking and crying out and really seeing, you know, your kingdom come and your will be done on earth. And so here that we can actually pray that. Like, because sometimes when we pray that, you know, what do we mean by that too? Um, and so when we're lamenting, we're saying, your kingdom come, Lord. These are the things that we're lamenting. These are the things

that we're seeing. But Lord, we want your kingdom to be done here on earth as it is in heaven. And we're lamenting and we're crying out and we're participating and we're engaging God, uh, in these things as we see them. >> Loren: Yeah. Let me read the whole quote for our audience. And I'm glad you could pick that up because I didn't give you much context there, but this is such a good quote here, a good section. Lament is especially highlighted in situations

of evil and injustice. In such contexts, we are trying to reconcile events and actions in this unjust world with God's character. Biblical lament trusts God enough to cry out. Sometimes. Lament is the only and most appropriate response to the horrors that take place. Because some evils are so appalling that the only the infinite goodness and power of God can bring about their ultimate defeat. The cry of lament is a

cry for change. It is a naming the evil and the pain that has befallen us in our world. So I think that resonates with another question I was going to ask you. Is that why is lament based on God's character and God's promise? >> May Young: Sure. Um, and I think this is kind of where it's a little bit different from more of our common, uh, understanding. Of lament because common understanding of lament is almost like we're just wallowing in our pain. Yes, wallowing in our sadness.

But here, lament from a biblical standpoint, we can lament because of who God is, because of his promises, of his character. That we don't lament in hopelessness. We actually lament because he's a God who is a God of promises. He's a good and just God who's merciful. Um, and he is the one that has the power to bring the change. And so, you know, it's not about us.

But here we're lamenting because we're lamenting to a person, to God, and engaging with him and based on who he is and his character is so important. Um, and I think throughout scripture, we see that too. Like, like when people come to God, they acknowledge who he is and they recognize that he's able to do it. He's able to do the change. And that's why we come, and that's why we come before God. And that's why lament.

When I talk about biblical lament and the genre of lament, it always starts off with an address to God and m. That's the very first step. Lament is not just like lamenting into a black hole of our sadness. It's not just sitting there doing, you know, crying our eyes out with nobody to hear us. It's actually turning to God, um, and the God who has this character of who he is and his promises as well.

>> Loren: Yeah. See, for. For our listeners, this is another reason I'd recommend the book, because in the latter half, May kind of breaks down different scriptures. Talking about the style of lament, which again, I thought was very enlightening and engaging.

I want to ask this because I think this is related to God's character and promise that you talk about in the book that I think is man, for me at least. Hard one to accept. You talk about the faith and the challenge to trust God, that healing and restoration may not happen in this lifetime or on our timetable. Let me set it up this way. I was just listening to a story about. In my neck of the woods, there's this nonprofit, Christian nonprofit, I think, um, Hope House, if I'm remembering

correctly. And they help. Help teen moms. And I remember I, uh, was just at an event where the. The founder and CEO told the story of, you know, their. Their orderly formation, and they're trying to figure out, you know, where they're going to be, where they're going to exist, land and all. That, and they, they were donated a piece of land and it wasn't zoned correctly, or at least they thought so. And they went into like the public records and they found that this was a,

a land given from a church. And actually 25 years ago, I mean, it just, it's so amazing. 25 years ago the church had zoned the land in the anticipation and desire to build some kind of maternity home for young moms. Right. >> May Young: Amazing. >> Loren: I mean, right? >> May Young: Yeah. And amazing. >> Loren: There's many people probably who, in their lifetime who probably thought, boy, 25 years has passed, we're not getting to

see this vision come to be. And then sure enough, 25, 30 years later, like there exists now a home and a mission for m. These teen moms. I mean, it's incredible. >> May Young: Mm, mhm. Mm mhm. Yeah, well, you know, I think so, I guess. Are you saying like having a vision that's beyond ourselves? >> Loren: Well, like the trusting, the timetable is not her own, you know? >> May Young: Mhm. Yeah. And I think that's really important. You know,

I think. And what I say is like, lament is not like a silver bullet. It's not here to like bring about, you know, what we want. This is not about like helping us just to get another way for us to see God as a genie in the bottle. This is not, that's not what I'm saying for lament. Lament is actually helping us to bring, uh, to get to a place of greater hope, a greater resilience, um, even if we don't see

it on our own timetable. And I really, I think about this with like the prophet Habakkuk, like here, you know, in the beginning of his book, you see that he's coming and he's lamenting the situation of what's happening. He's like, all this evil is happening God, like, what's going on? You know, you're not a God who can stand evil. And then God's like, okay, I'm gonna bring justice and I'm gonna bring it through the Babylonians. And he's like, what, you call

that justice? You know, and he's like dealing with God because he feel like the Babylonians are worse than his own people. Like, how could God use these wicked people to judge his own people? And so he's grappling with these things and dealing with God and has these questions. And what I think is so amazing is that, you know, God never says, okay, you know what,

you're right, I'm not going to use the Babylonians, okay? You know, but what you find is that the prophet himself at, uh, in chapter three at the end, comes to a place that even if, you know, he doesn't see anything, he says, I'm still going to trust you. You know, I'm still gonna, you know. And it was about, uh, a place of surrender and a place. And probably in that process of his lament, he was able to see that God is trustworthy, that God is just.

That God is who he says he is. And in the midst of that, he's able to say, God, you know, my hope is not dependent on what I see or this kind of, uh, you know, what God is gonna bring about in this way. But his hope was really in God alone and what he's gonna do. And so no matter what happens, he was able, through his surrender, to find resilience. And I think that's just such a beautiful

way to see that. Even in lament, you know, it's not always just about coming to a place where we feel like, you know, we get the prayers that we want answered or we want the outcome that we have answered. But sometimes it's really about drawing close to God, trusting God, finding strength, finding hope, finding resilience in his presence. So that, you know, whatever the outcome, you know, this is. So this is where I say, you know, hope is.

It's. It's meant. Is to bring us greater hope. It's not to answer our prayers the way that we want it to be answered. And that's not what I'm trying to say in this book at all. And I feel. What's really interesting for me is, like, a lot of times that I've talked to different people who've gone through really difficult times or difficult suffering, uh, after they've come out of it, they tell me, they go, you know, what I miss the most is that closeness

that I had with God in the midst of that. And I can testify that for myself too. His presence was so real and so close at those moments, um, that it wasn't just about, oh, you know, I'm going to come see better days here and there. But it's about, wow, God is with me

and he's going to care for me. He's going to take care of it. I may not know what it's going to look like, but I'm going to trust him, um, and it may not happen on my timetable, it may not even happen in my lifetime, but I'm going to trust him, um, in this and acknowledging, you know, that he sees our pain, that he's There he is our healer. He is the one who cares for us and knows the very best. And so, um, recognizing

those things. And sometimes it may not be the outcome that we want, but that doesn't mean there's a loss of hope in there as well. >> Loren: Yeah. I appreciate what you said about the answer to prayer not necessarily being what we wanted or no answer at all. I'm thinking of your quote on page 105. Remember, silence does not equate to absence. God is still there. M. I think that's so powerful, speaking even what you just said there.

>> May Young: Yeah. Yeah. I was listening to a, uh, sermon more recently about how sometimes. So I think there's twofold in God's silence. I think, um, first, you know, in our silence, when in God's silence, sometimes that actually causes us to press in deeper to God, in a deeper engagement. And sometimes maybe that's what God wants in that silence, to have us to come and seek him more deeply, um, in that way, um, more passionately. Another way I think about, like,

the silence of God is, uh, I was listening. This is where I was listening to a sermon, talking about how it's in times of

testing that there's silence. So, like, they gave the example of how, like, when you're in a classroom, the professor or the teacher is speaking and teaching, but when there's a test, the teacher is silent, and the student is answering with what they learned, you know, and so sometimes, maybe the things that we've been learning, God is asking us to, you know, put it to the test, you know, the things that we've learned about who he is, to trust that. Um, so I think I put, you

know, what. What we see in the light, we need to remember in the dark, you know? Um, and so when we're walking through that valley, we need to remember the things that we've learned, you know, um, on the mountaintop. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, this is really good conversation. I hope folks can just get a taste for the book again. It's Walking with God through the Valley, Recovering the Purpose of Biblical Lament. Again,

really recommend it. I really appreciate reading it, and I hope, uh, it's been a blessing to others. Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some closing questions. All right, we're back with Dr. Mae Young. Thank you so much for this conversation. Uh, we always tell folks for these closing questions, you're welcome to take them as seriously or not as you'd like to. So if you're pope for a day, what would you want to do with that day.

>> May Young: Um, if I was a pope for a day, I think I would use it to call people. And this is something that I, I just alluded to a little bit earlier, um, that we have become too individualized. And I would, uh, call people back to recognize the body of the church, that we're the body of Christ and we belong to one another. Um, and not to, like, phone it in or zoom it in, but to become connected into

the church. And one of the things that I talk about, even in my book, is that loneliness is a huge kind of, uh, thing that people are struggling with and people are feeling. And so, you know, this isolation has brought to a greater sense of loneliness in the hearts of people. And so really calling people back to a community and recognizing, um, the church, the body of Christ, and the importance of that.

>> Loren: Um, the next question, ah, theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life? I'm also curious, related to this topic. What are some historical figures, whether biblical or historically Christian, who you recognize as practicing this practice of lament? >> May Young: Well, definitely. So I guess it would be like David, because

from the book of Psalms. So I, um, would definitely see him as a person that I would like to talk to about lament, just because he is, ah, an author of many of the Psalms, um, and to ask him about his thoughts about when he penned these two laments and his own, you know, process. I think I ended the book too, where I talked about how it says that David, uh, strengthened himself in the Lord.

And what did that look like? Was that really lament, you know, when he was doing that, you know, finding strength in the Lord, Uh, the other person would be like, you know, um, job, you know, as he's lamenting his own situation.

Um, and what for him, you know, like, I really appreciate his honesty in dealing with, you know, his situation and his pain before God as well as, like, Habakkuk, uh, you know, just some of the people, and probably someone that I really, um, really admire and I really, really learn a lot from his writings is Henri Nouwen, which I did quote. Um, he just thinks so deeply about so many issues. Um, I really appreciate his thoughts on these things as well.

>> Loren: Yeah. Thinking about our current time and place, what do you think history will remember from our current time and place? >> May Young: Well, I don't know from our current time and place, but maybe like within our generation for sure is the pandemic. COVID 19. I think that's gonna be remembered. I think it just. And that shutdown of the world that had happened. Like, that's unprecedented, you know. Um, so I. You know what I remember? Yeah.

>> Loren: Let me ask this vame, because I just saw this somewhere on social media. This idea that there's a thought that our society right now is dealing with unprocessed grief and pain from the COVID pandemic. You write about lament. Do you think we need to lament more or we should have lamented more? The pandemic? Like, do you think there's this so rush to get back to normal?

>> May Young: You know what? Maybe I don't know what can be done in terms of like, you know, after the fact in some sense of like. I don't know if it was like. I don't want to say we should have lamented more, but. But maybe there are certain things that people could think about. One thing is interesting is I feel like the younger generation is dealing with a lot more anxiety. >> Loren: Yeah.

>> May Young: Um. And not knowing how to, you know, process a lot of things and a lot of them even attributing some of the things that happened during the COVID pandemic during their formative years. Um, and so, you know, there might be things there to actually think about instead of just getting back into life as it is to recognize what could be part of that that is contributing to the anxiety. Um,

that's there as well. So, you know, I think there's definitely things for us to really, uh, be more reflective about. Perhaps, you know, this is a question of, you know, as a society as a whole, maybe we're, um, very do oriented, very busy, very, um, and so that we don't have time for reflection. And, uh, maybe this is good if we spent more time in reflection about that. And I think sometimes people don't even know where to start. You know, they're just.

Because they're just always on the go. It's almost like when people are always on the go, when they have time to stop, they don't even know what to do with themselves. And so maybe this is a time of, you know, how do we sit before God? How do we sit and have that time of reflection before him? >> Loren: Yeah. I feel like that's a theme we didn't even explore enough in this conversation that to lament you almost have to stop and not just plow through. >> May Young: That's right.

>> Loren: Everything. >> May Young: Yep. Yeah. And that's where it's hard. I think people don't want to stop and. But sometimes when things are so debilitating, you have no choice but to stop. You know, yeah. >> Loren: Okay, last, uh, last question here. What are your hopes for the future of Christianity? >> May Young: Well, I, I think some things that I've been hearing about is like, uh, revival that's taking place in high schools, in college campuses.

Um, I just think that's so encouraging. And my hopes is that I want to see the Lord move powerfully in this next generation, um, and to use them to bring about his work, uh, here, um, and across the nation and around the world. And so it's really amazing too, because I have the privilege of teaching, uh, college students teach at Taylor University, and just seeing their passion and knowing, um, just their call and what God is calling them to do and

just. It's just such a privilege to see that and, uh, to see what God's doing in the next generation. >> Loren: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate the conversation, your perspectives. Do you want to share how folks can connect with you? Get a copy of the book, all that stuff? >> May Young: Sure. Um, well, uh, right now I am currently having a website put together. Um, that'll come up shortly, but, uh, it's mayoung.com.

it's not up yet, but it'll be up shortly. Uh, but in the meantime, you can find my book on Amazon or Christian Book Distributors or anywhere. Um, IVP website as well. >> Loren: Yeah. >> May Young: Um, and so you can get a copy of the book that way. >> Loren: Well, it'll be a few weeks before this comes out, so hopefully listeners, uh, be on lookout. Look for May Young. Right. You said dot com. Hopefully be up and live around. Maybe we can get that timing right.

>> May Young: Yeah, that sounds great. >> Loren: Yeah. Well, thanks again for your time. Really appreciate the conversation. We, uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. >> May Young: You. Thank you. >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments, and ideas for future

episodes. Visit our website at, uh, future-christian.com and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.