Leading with Grace: Suzanne Nadell on Navigating Faith, Media & Polarization

>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with

Suzanne Nadell. Suzanne is an award winning journalist with 30 years of experience working in local TV newsrooms across the country. Her career includes leadership roles at, ah, some of the nation's top stations, including WSB TV in Atlanta, the number one local news station in America. Suzanne's work has earned numerous accolades including Emmy, Edward R. Murrow and Associated Press awards.

Passionate about mentoring women and using her talents to serve others, Suzanne is dedicated to making a difference both inside and outside the newsroom. She and her husband Michael, have a teenage son and are active members of Atlanta Christian Church. A, uh, reminder, before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram.

Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonate, uh, mediaproject with comments, questions or ideas for future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern the future of the church. >> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. Today I am pleased to be joined by Suzanne Nadel. Thank you so much for being here. >> Suzanne Nadell: Thank you for having me.

>> Loren: Yeah, looking forward to having this conversation. Is there anything else you'd like, uh, our listeners to know about you? >> Suzanne Nadell: You know, I introduce myself as a wife, mom and boss. So I'm someone who juggles the whole faith family career. Spent the past 19 years in news management, 30 and news. So I juggle a lot, just like. Just like many people do. >> Loren: It's funny, I think I bought a little knickknack from my

wife once. It said those three words, wife, mom, boss. >> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah, three big roles. >> Loren: Yeah, three big roles, for sure. Share a few words kind of about your faith journey, what that looked like in the past and what that looks like today. >> Suzanne Nadell: Well, I'm a preacher's kid. Pk. I always say, like, true preacher's kid. Grew up in a parsonage, mom played the piano, dad the senior Pastor at a church. So of course, that is, you know, deep

formation and all of that. Did all the things that preacher's kids are supposed to do, right? Like, I went to a Christian college. I was supposed to marry a minister, because isn't that what we're supposed to do? It didn't happen. Uh, interesting. I am one of those people that I would say my faith journey, though my faith did not become my own until I was an adult. I was the kid at church camp and Sunday school. I had all the answers.

I did what you were supposed to do. But I really don't think I was really owning my own faith and had an understanding of grace and hope and love and all of those things until I was later in my 20s. And then different things happened in life that made that deeper and deeper. But I would say that's the big. I fell away for a bit in my early 20s because I didn't have a faith that was my own. My faith was the rules that I was thought I was supposed to follow from everything that I learned as a kid.

>> Loren: And, uh, you really talk about that more in the book. But Cher, maybe just for our listeners here, what. What kind of helped spark. Spark that or renewed that for you? >> Suzanne Nadell: Probably a lot of things. I think a lot of it was just compounding adulthood. I was a newlywed in my first really, really stressful job, and I realized that there had to be something more. And I knew what that something

more was. I will say there was a moment I had an aunt who passed away, and at her funeral, they had like an old school invitation. And that was like a wake up moment for me. And I was after her funerals when I started going back regularly. And

then it was just getting involved more and more. And I would say it ebbed and flowed until my cancer journeys, you know, later, of course, that, you know, deepens your faith, but just life, you know, My parents did a great job of laying that groundwork, so I knew there was more there. It was just really discovering for myself that I needed that faith and that spiritual walk and everything that goes along with it.

>> Loren: If m. I can go off script for just a moment. I feel like your journey really mirrors so much of what we're seeing in the broader culture of young adults. Kind of, I don't want to say losing or letting go or. I'm not sure what the correct wording is here, but sort of not making faith their own for that kind of young adult period.

Your journey really mirrors, I think, what is happening in the broader culture I'm curious, when you look, what lessons do you think you'd advise to either parents or church leaders? Just real quickly here, to me, I think there's some inevitability to it and the only thing that parents or church leaders can offer is just continued presence and care. Do you think there's anything more? >> Suzanne Nadell: I think also a focus on spiritual practices, not as a checkoff box.

Yeah, I understood some spiritual practices, but they were more of a checklist. Like I was supposed to read the Bible every day because that's what good Christians do and I was supposed to memorize it. But, uh, um, we didn't do work on Sundays because we didn't want, you know, the church board seeing us doing things. It was more of a checkoff box and not understanding spiritual practices to, uh, feed your

soul and have a deeper connection. So I think the connection behind spiritual practices and I would say the relationship, I didn't understand the relationship with the Spirit and Jesus and God, you know, the Trinity and all of those things, it's focusing on the relationship and less of a check off the box.

>> Loren: It's interesting as you say that because I certainly many, I think many people myself include who grew up in a more conservative context, understand that kind of check off box mentality around spiritual practices. And there's that transition of finding things you can own for yourself. Are, uh, you willing to share anything that's been resonant for you, resonated with you as a spiritual practice of late, or has helped, perhaps renewed for you?

>> Suzanne Nadell: I think a few things that I've focused on as I've gotten older is a true understanding of the Sabbath m and taking a break and how that was created for me. I would also say I did not grow up in a culture that talked about the Spirit, the Holy Spirit very much. And part of, I think exposure in newsrooms was being exposed to people of different faiths and cultural backgrounds.

And there are some cultural backgrounds that are very, where their chur, you know, traditions are very tied to the Spirit. >> Loren: Right. >> Suzanne Nadell: Uh, I will say, you know, becoming close to my black sisters, many of my black sisters, has really like gotten me in tune with the Spirit and just even in conversation and how the Holy Spirit is there all the time. And again, that's

not something we talked about in uh, my culture. Growing up in my upbringing very much and being in tune with that, that guide, that advocate there for us. I would say that and Sabbath are my true. Like the two that I really lean into as an adult, that I didn't even Think of as a child, teenager, young adult. >> Loren: Well, that's. That's great. Thanks for sharing those. I appreciate that perspective.

Well, I had. Suzanne. Suzanne, I'm sorry, I'm struggling with your name for some reason today. Suzanne on the podcast today. She's the author of the book Wired to Lead. Being the leader the church didn't think you. And I'm looking forward to having some conversation around some themes in your book. But let's begin the conversation in this way. Uh, when I read the book and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, seems to be structured very much in this way. It's like a heartfelt

letter. And I'm curious, when you sat down to write it, what were some things that you were carrying, some burdens you were carrying that you really felt like you had to get out? >> Suzanne Nadell: Why I felt like I needed to write this book, I will say so badly, you know, I just knew for years I needed to write this book, is that I felt alone in the church world for so much of my life. And I wanted women who were like me to know they're not

alone. I wanted young girls and girls in college to know they're not alone, that you are loved the way God made you to lead and do all of those things and lean into those gifts. And that doesn't make you less of a Christian woman. There's just so much for the Christian woman who chooses and feels led to stay at home and have the kids and have that traditional. There's just so much. And I've just never felt like there was much for me. And I'm like,

I know there are more women like me. So I'm like, well, maybe I'm one of the people that has to get out there and let folks know you're not alone. And I want other folks to know they're not alone. >> Loren: Yeah, great, great. I think that really comes through throughout the book. So something that certainly speaks to your context. And again, you as a, uh. What. I'm not sure the term you use for yourself. So ministers in the marketplace, we might say, broadly speaking, working

in a news. In the news field, news media. I think the thing that stood out to me the most was. And the thing that I'm more really interested to talk about is, like, your experience in news media and how. I'm curious how that experience and learnings can be applicable to churches and church leaders.

So I think I want to start, uh, that conversation with this, where we talk about, or you talk about in your book, that the churches have created Bubbles. And I think we've certainly seen that so much. Not just in church, of course, but in our whole American social context right now. So many bubbles, whether on social media, I mean, that's, I think, primarily where we get it. But how do you encourage, I mean, not just in the church, but that's primarily

my focus here. But how do you encourage churches and others to get out of those bubbles? Uh, especially when we think about telling hard truths in this polarized world that we live in, it's so hard to say anything that's going to be. You almost have to filter everything through the bubble. Does that make sense? >> Suzanne Nadell: Right. Well, it starts with looking at who's at the table.

>> Loren: Mhm. >> Suzanne Nadell: And that's one of the lessons, I call them, the life lessons that I learned in a newsroom that I wish I learned in church is who's at your table. And at every gathering, if everyone looks the same, I would say if everyone believes the exact same, we've got some non negotiables that we believe in. But there are other thoughts to

bring to the table. So it starts with seeing who's at the table. So if I look at a news editorial meeting and it is all people who look like me, from the same socioeconomic background, who think like me, who even operate the same as me, we're not going to do a good job of representing our local community because we're only going to be coming at it from one

viewpoint. If we're the church and we're supposed to be reaching everyone, how are you going to reach people who aren't like you if you don't understand what their thoughts and perspectives are? And that starts with inviting them to the table. My pastor always says, you know, church is, uh, you know, church is supposed to be one big table. And who do you have at your table? Whether that be your dinner table, your lunch table, your table at.

But it starts with looking at who's at the table and who is it that you need to bring to your table. >> Loren: I want to stay in this point because I think it speaks to something else you write about in the book about encountering discomfort. You write that you felt like in the newsroom. Newsrooms are more willing to go through these uncomfortable conversations or topics

or themes. And you write that, sadly, I felt called to that mission in a newsroom more than I have inside the walls of the church because many churches are uncomfortable with this idea of getting uncomfortable. And I think that's just sad in general. But do you want to talk more about that? How You've experienced that. >> Suzanne Nadell: Well, in church, let's be real. It's not a job. People don't have to show up to it. You know, it's optional.

And I think there's this fear that we're going to scare people off, right? So we're careful about what we say. We don't want to have the discord. We're afraid they're going to go away. At the end of the day, that's someone's choice, right? But you don't bring it up or stir something if you don't talk about it. You know, I write in the book that I, uh, I was an adult before. I outright heard racism bad. This is racism. Calling m people out on it. Um, things like loving your neighbor. Who is

your neighbor? Having those true conversations. It's hard. I get it. I grew up in a preacher's house. I understand it's different than a workplace. But as followers, to ensure that we are loving our neighbors, that we are being the hands of feet in Jesus, there are some real conversations we need to have in our smaller groups, in our churches. And I would even go to say is the pulpit as well. >> Loren: So let's dive. Let's dive in a bit, a

little bit more here. Because again, I'm thinking like a news station. Like, you're competing for viewers, right? Like at some point, like, you want people tuning into your newscast, and you can't control whether they change a channel or go to another, uh, another news channel or another news site, for instance. So there is some kind of, like, filtering your. Your. Your storytelling or this. The. What you're communicating to them similarly, I can imagine. And certainly

you. I imagine you felt this from your father or in your family growing up. Like, you don't, uh, there's a preacher's kid. The preacher doesn't want to sleep, anger all the Karrigans and run them off. So I'm just curious, like, how have you, in your leading in the newsroom, kind of. I'm not sure the right wording here. Filtered is maybe not the right word. Structured. Manage your communication to speak the truth, but in a way that people can hear

it. Uh, and similarly, like, what thoughts do you have about, again, in a church, from a church leader or pastor perspective, like, communicating these, uh, important messages, but in a way that people are going to tune in. Does that make sense? >> Suzanne Nadell: Uh, part of it's through making the people connection. I would say a lot of it's through the people connection. If you're just talking about ideas and you don't know the people.

And by the way, you're talking about people that folks don't even expose themselves to. >> Loren: Right. >> Suzanne Nadell: How are they going to connect to it? So uh, it then again goes back to who are you exposed to? Are you living in that bubble? Are you so against it because you think everyone thinks is you already and it's a no brainer because you're just in that bubble. I would say it

news. And you could maybe look at this a little bit too. If it's a controversial story that I know the nation is divided on and I'm getting like, you know, nasty emails from both sides. I would say as a journalist, we've done a good job that day. >> Loren: Right, right, right. >> Suzanne Nadell: And sometimes, you know, I have to say that uh, you know, the facts are the facts, the they're, the people are people and it all comes down to connecting

those stories and people. That's so much of why I say what I've done is so close to what my dad did. It's, it's people and their stories and it's what they're going through and you know, advocating for them. But yeah, if you're trying to shift thought space. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Suzanne Nadell: Without connecting to the people you're talking about, you're going to have a hard time.

>> Loren: That's important. I appreciate that observation. I mean obviously, obviously we might say right in the church space, like we're actively counting on the Holy Spirit doing some of the work. Right. I don't know if you can count on that in the news media space. Right. But I appreciate that point about breaking through those bubbles to build connections to the people that you're encouraging people to care about.

>> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah, yeah. It's partnering and that could be with partnering with a church in another community. It can be what you're doing for your outreach. It could be how welcoming are you to people coming into your congregation? It can be. I mention in the book, you know, organizations, there's Be the Bridge, which is a good one. I mentioned that in the book. There are similar organizations.

What I love about Be the Bridge is when you first sign up for like their social media channel, you're not even allowed to say anything for a certain time. Part of it is just listening at first to take into uh, take it all in. And that's a huge part of everything as well. How well are we doing at listening to others?

>> Loren: Yeah, let me stay on this theme because uh, I think it's where I'm most interested and I'm hoping it's helpful to the Listeners, certainly. Hopefully. I'm not being too disparaging of news media right now, Suzanne, you can tell me. But it seems like, at least in some cable news circles, like, there are news media channels that are very focused on a certain segment of the populace that is who they're communicating to. I won't name names. How does

one stay out of that tendency? Because I can imagine even in your context that you've worked in, there can be a temptation, and certainly this is true in church, to just speak to those who are on the same side of me. So you're not getting any. All the emails you're getting are just from one side saying, hey, we hate what you're saying, and you're getting a bunch of go Suzanne or go preacher emails. Uh, how do you avoid just siloing or channeling to one particular side or the other?

>> Suzanne Nadell: Well, you're referring to cable, and I can't speak to. I have not worked for, you know, a cable outlet. I, uh, would say local news is. Is very different. And we've got the research to show that people still trust local news versus cable outlets. I do think some of that has spilled over. And I think when you talk about affiliations and everything, too, that confuses people in their minds. I will say, in local

news, how have we. And I've worked with a company that's been very good at tracking our trust scores compared to our network and all of those things, like, all through, to make sure that we keep our trust. And, you know, the station ownership group that I've been a part of, we realize trust is our most valuable strategic thing that we have. And how we've kept that is we've stayed at the core of who we are. And that's journalists. And that is

both sides. That is facts, that is people storytelling, that is voice for the voiceless, all of those things. So staying true to who we are, I would say that can go to the church. Staying true to who we are. Are we loving God? Are we loving people? Or are we becoming a congregation? >> Loren: That. >> Suzanne Nadell: That is a place centered around a political view. And we're more about political lines than we are going back to the

message at keeping Jesus as the center. If you're keeping Jesus at the center and his message to love God, love people, really Take a look. Are you really loving God? Are you really loving people? That's at the core of it. So I'd say with both of those things, it goes to the center of who we are. Are we. Are we being true journalists? Are we being True lovers of God and lovers of people. >> Loren: It's interesting what you point out about the trust level

being higher for local media. And I'm kind of curious, A, what that's about or, you know, if you have any insights on what that's about. And I think, B, I think it sort of reflects again, of what I've read what we're seeing on the national level about, like, distrust or mistrust of institutions writ large. But like. Oh, I know. I mean, does it really just boil down to, like, personal relationships, like you've said already? >> Suzanne Nadell: I think it does, uh, a lot of it with people.

I think local news, there are a few things we are dependent on for public safety. So we are very much more. Neighborhood community. You could take to other church as well. Neighborhood community. Down at the, at the center, you're on the ground level. You're who people turn to. You connect to people. Like, that's something in TV journalism we have over digital things. There's that connection to people. You get to know them. I mean, I. We have to be careful that we don't get the spillover that's

happened in the cables. And I could go to a lot of thoughts of why the cables ended up where they were and agendas and different things, which is a whole thing on its own. But I would say the thing about local is we are local journalists, local businesses, local people in the community with people covering news that impacts them on a ground level every, uh, day. And, you know, we even have to talk about, you know, there's a lot of stuff in the news

today. How much is it that our local audience is really into that? How is that speaking to the people in our community today? >> Loren: Yeah, and it gets to something I was going to ask about here. You write, dear Church, once you know the truth, what are you going to do about it? Uh, thinking again through your context of, like, news, you know, when you're, when you give a story that perhaps is a national story,

and thinking about, like, oh, do I make this? You know, do I need to bring this down locally? How do you discern? And again, what do you advise churches similarly? Because, again, I think there can be this temptation. I'm not in the context where I'm preaching every week because I don't have to deal with this, but certainly amongst some of my clergy friends, there's this temptation. Every time something happens on the national level, it's a big story.

There's this, oh, I got to rewrite my sermon on Saturday night type thing. You deal with that. On some level, on a local level where I don't know what, the five o' clock newscast, six o' clock, ten o' clock, whatever. Uh, thinking from my own context, you have some of those pressures where, like, oh, do we redo our entire newscast? I mean, I don't know. You can tell me. But what does that look like? >> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah, today's a perfect example. The Pope died. Right? Okay,

so we're in Atlanta. Not a huge, huge Catholic community. I would say if I'm in some cities I've been in, no brainer. Well, how are we going to connect that to the Atlanta community? If you just want international Pope coverage, you're going to go to the cables for that. We're not going to out cable. The cable or out national. The national. So how do we tell the Atlanta stories to that? Well, Atlanta is a very diverse community. He was kind of known as like, the progressive pontiff. What is he

connected to? How did some of the things he stand for impact what we've got going on locally in Atlanta? I would say for someone in the church, before you go there, what's going on big nationally, how do you connect that to talking to your congregation about how they're going to live every day if you're not giving them a takeaway that is actionable

and real? And how are we doing it? If you're just doing it to give everyone riled up, you're just getting everyone riled up and, you know, talking, what are you doing to take that message and what's going on to put that in everyday practice to be the hands and feet of Jesus? And so the question, again, that we ask in news is, how are we doing that to connect to our local community in a different way that connects to our viewers? And again, I think

you could just take that with a congregation as well. How are you connecting that specifically? Bring it home, bring it down, bring it local, bring it every day. And how do you connect the dots in that? >> Loren: Yeah, that's helpful because, like, my media consumption tends to be mostly like sports radio. Uh, not as much as now. I'm not driving as much. Uh, but that's something

like one of the afternoon drive shows. Like, they do that really well all the time, where they'll start with like this big kind of national sports, and then they always bring it down, like you said, to like. And to me, it's such a easy transition. It makes sense because I get the best of both worlds as a sports fan. Like, I'm hearing about the, the big whatever happening in

The XYZ League. But also, like, it's appropriate to my context as a. As someone who lives in Denver and follows local teams. >> Suzanne Nadell: Right, yeah. The context, we call it the context, perspective and relevance. What is the context to what's going on? What is the perspective and how is it relevant to me?

>> Loren: I'm going to keep talking through this because I think it's really interesting, again, thinking about, like, a pastor. So there's a big national story breaks, the Pope dies. Right. Let's just stay in the story because, I mean, we're obviously timestamping ourselves here, recording this on the Monday the Pope died. Um, so the Pope dies, and we're thinking about, like, let's say Pope dies on a Friday, Saturday

afternoon instead. Like. And I want to mention something about the Pope in my sermon. So I've got to figure out some way to, like, mention the story and then try to find some connection to what. Something the Pope was about that's relevant to my context or church. Then is that fair? >> Suzanne Nadell: Correct. Correct. And I think, you know, depending on your stance on the Pope, could be different with this Pope in particular, the different, you know,

ways you could go. But, you know, let's say, you know, that it's, uh, you know, caring for the orphans and the migrants and, you know, what drove that and what are you doing in your community, like, here? One of the things that we did Newswise today is we've got a huge Latin American association. So we initially, of course, we went to our Latin American association, um, to talk about, you

know, their efforts and how, you know, he's. He spoke to them, you know, how he, you know, not alienating people, uh, whichever way you wanted to go. Yeah. Thinking about how he connects, how his message connected, how that message connects to it. Um, a lot of different ways you could go. >> Loren: Yeah. How about the other side of this? Because, like, I'm thinking again, there's so many news stories that happens or so many things you could put in the news. How do you discern, like,

what. This is an important story, but just not. Like, I certainly felt the pressure where, like, you have to say any. Anytime a story breaks, you're like, I've got to put this in the sermon somehow, or I've got to mention this on Sunday and at some point, like, it just, like it doesn't fit. So how do you discern that? >> Suzanne Nadell: Not everything does. We talk about the impact and the value. Like, is it something that really needs to be discussed right now? But

no, not everything makes the cut. Not everything makes the Cut. And you have to decide. You have to be strategic. Right. Like if you're jumping on something every week, it's can get lost. So what has value to it? What ah, has impact? What's you know, your people, you know, your congregation. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Suzanne Nadell: You know what's going to resonate with them the most and which things are rising to the top. >> Loren: Yeah.

So I want to, I want to come back to one more thing from your book. For sure. So don't miss this. You talk about the importance of kindness and I'm thinking to stories you wrote in your book about talking amongst yourselves in the newsroom about difficult conversations. I'm thinking about how there's been so many challenging topics in the last four or five years that churches and leaders have had to wrestle with. A pastor or church leader wants to speak truth.

How have you seen that navigate really well where someone is speaking truth? Again? Maybe it's even from the context of the newscast where your anchors are speaking truth, but they're doing it in a kind way. >> Suzanne Nadell: Again. It's realizing you're talking to a person. And that's what I think we've forgotten with social media. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Suzanne Nadell: It's just become okay to forget that

that person is a person. My boss says and I say to my news managers, let's assume every day the action being done in the newsroom or that conversation comes from a place of good intentions. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Suzanne Nadell: And we have to realize that people. We're talking to people, we're talking about people. And for some reason it spilled into again. We could have a big broader conversation but we've forgotten that we're talking to people about. About people.

There are people I'd write down in my journal. So and so. If I'm having a hard time with a person, I'll say so and so is a child of God. Like just remote remembering. Every person we're talking about is a child of God. The person you cannot stand the most right now in the climate is a child of God. Remembering we're talking to a child of God. I remember that. I have to remind myself of that in the newsroom. It's taking that pause. >> Loren: Mhm.

>> Suzanne Nadell: Before you even talk to that person. What kind of headspace do I need to be in right now? But yeah, everybody is a child of God. And we have to remember that. >> Loren: Let's stay on this trend because I think it's interesting. You're so, uh, you write in your book about you're purposely finding some ways to get boundaries and we should come back to that. If we have time.

But I want to talk about this because you're talking about trying to stay centered, stay grounded amongst the chaos. And I'm thinking like, especially you being so dialed into what's happening. You write in your book about peace comes from being reminded there's more to life than your present circumstances. And there is one, I'm assuming that one, it's God who is looking out for you.

Talk more if you can. Share about like, again, whether it's someone like you in news media, whether it can be a pastor or clergy person or church leader, there's so much going on in our world right now. And we're often so dialed in because of social media or other things that we can easily find ourselves. I know I can. Being aflutter from all that's happening. How do you find that peace for yourself? >> Suzanne Nadell: You have to force yourself to disconnect. This is where I said

Sabbath earlier is very important. And by the way, if you think that your world cannot go on without you. >> Loren: Hm. >> Suzanne Nadell: You got a couple things going on. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Suzanne Nadell: First, you're not trusting people and you don't have the right people around you. >> Loren: M. Mhm. >> Suzanne Nadell: You're also not trusting God. And I would go as far to say you're trying to play God. >> Loren: Mhm.

>> Suzanne Nadell: There's only one person who can control everything. There's only one person who's perfect. We don't have to be that plugged in all the time. And God created Sabbath for us. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Suzanne Nadell: We've got to disconnect. That's where we get the perspective. Because if you're just getting stuff in, in, in, in, in, it's overload. And everything is going. And how

do you sort out what. What God is really telling you about that versus what people are telling you if you don't slow down to sit in it and think about it. So that comes. It's trust. I say it's trust. Was my word of the year for a while. And trust was about trusting the people around me, trusting myself in the way God made me to be, and most of all, trusting

God. I believe a lack of Sabbath at the core of why many people don't Sabbath is it's a trust of God, a lack of a trust of trust of God that he's going to take care of you. He's going to take care of everything around you. It's about trusting God. >> Loren: Got to write that down here. Uh, lack of Sabbath, lack of. Lack of trust. So it sounds like boundaries are really important then. So let's, let's Continue on on that theme,

what have you. I kind of liked what I don't want to maybe I don't know if I want to say for you, but share if you would, what you've had to do or what's been helpful for you to like set some rigid boundaries for yourself. I appreciate the example of your husband. Right. >> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah. I've had to get some good people around me at work. That's, you know, something that I've had to do. People I could trust. I've had to do a lot of self work on it.

I've had to be very clear with the people I work for and the people who work for me. I talk about zones in house. I believe there's uh, good physical boundaries. Like right now I'm doing this from my office, my home office. This is my book stuff. This is not my station stuff. This is not my family stuff. It has a place. I try really hard, unless I just need a change of scenery to only do work in the house in certain areas.

>> Loren: Mhm. >> Suzanne Nadell: If I'm not doing work in the living room, that means that is a family place. And then when I'm with my son, I'm not distracted and they see that too. So I love. It's called work zones. There's a book called the Leader that um, you want to be and she talks about work zones. And in a time where more and more people are working from home, I think that's very important. I write in the book Covid was like the worst boundary time for me ever.

>> Loren: Right, right. >> Suzanne Nadell: I was just working all the time, everywhere. Complete lack of boundaries. >> Loren: Yeah, I remember especially in the height of COVID it really felt like we weren't working from home, we were living from work. You know what I'm saying? Uh, so that was challenging.

I want to ask before we finish this part of the conversation because you're obviously someone who's in communications and I think communications is so essential for churches and pastors. Do you have anything? The thing I always joke about, I want to have a stand up comedian on the show because they're obviously really well at engaging their audience. Saying a comedian has to do well about maintaining

engagement with an audience for 30, 45 minutes. Uh, your episodes, your news episodes aren't necessarily that long, but do you have any tips for pastors or folks who are on stage at church for good communication practices? >> Suzanne Nadell: Storytelling. So look at storytelling as through people's stories, whatever you can put around a person helps people, uh, identify. And then I would just always say we call it pacing.

Think about what you have and where. And that just keeps the, the flow going, breaking things up. Like if you've got long stretches of anything next to each other, it tends to slow down. So think of things as like a film strip and films like they put different sizes next to each other. So always thinking about varying where you put things. And that helps the pacing of things. It keeps moving it around. So stories and pace, those are two things we always talk about. Stories and pace.

>> Loren: Can you give me an example from like a newscast, what that might look like? Is that like you have a short story, then a long story type thing. >> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah. So it's not putting a lot of things the same length back to back. It's not putting too long

things next to each other. It's like, you know, doing something, getting people in off the top, then putting, you know, a little something and then a little something longer and then like maybe a couple of short things, then something longer. So it's like spacing out like where you have. So yeah. >> Loren: Okay. So if I'm a pastor and I'm writing a sermon, then I'm going to want to have at least a couple stories in there. Right. About people.

So I guess, um, if I have a long quote or a long segment, like I want to break that up with a shorter quick thought. >> Suzanne Nadell: Correct. You don't want to put too long quotes back to get back. >> Loren: Okay. >> Suzanne Nadell: You don't want to put too long readings back to back. You m. Want to break them up with. With something. So whether it be a quick story or a quick transition. Um, but break them up so you don't have length next to length for

a long time. So break things up a bit. But stories I would always. Wherever you know, and when I preach, I always try to start with a story. You figure uh, out where, where that spot is that you can connect it, uh, with a person and stories. And I would say even. I was even thinking of your whole service where I was saying you don't want long things.

Like you want to make sure that you're thinking of your service. If you've got long readings that day, what are you putting around the long readings? >> Loren: So obviously, I imagine in your local broadcast commercial breaks, I don't know about. In a service we have commercial breaks, mind you. But again, thinking about like teasers and those transitions. Any thoughts on. I don't know if you want to build up a teaser maybe for the. From the worship singing to the

sermon. But what thoughts do you have whether either within the sermon or the Whole service at large. >> Suzanne Nadell: Probably not a teaser in any's cast. Even though you could say if you're a church that has like a board up in the beginning, you know, with slides, you can have like kind of a, you know, what's coming up or something there, uh, to do that. But I would say, yeah, you don't have commercial breaks, but where it is, you do your hellos with everyone. >> Loren: Right.

>> Suzanne Nadell: Where it is, I would say in your. Keeping in mind who you're having do what each week. So if your communion liturgy person is a slower talker that week, is your open and closer or your, your reader a faster paced person. Okay. Uh, you know, thinking of those kinds of things too. Like, you don't want your two slow talkers on the same day. Again, this is like ideal world. It's church world. Sometimes it's whoever you've got to do with that week. Let's be real.

>> Loren: Yeah, right. Okay, uh, last thing here before we take a break. Any like, I always like to ask this question to folks who are in communications. Like any, like, anything, like pastors or communicators should like, immediately start doing or stop doing from what you've seen. Ooh. >> Suzanne Nadell: Immediately stop or start. So just remember, simple. Okay, Simple. I'd say when it comes to slides and things, one thought per slide, just say, simplify things. We, like, tend

to get cluttered. Uh, don't forget, it takes many times for people to get a message. I would say also the young ones don't read email, folks. So figure out how to get the messages out there besides email. The young ones may not see email for a long time. It took us a long time to get on email at church. We're just really slow at church. You know, it took us long enough to get on email. Now everyone's texting or doing something else. So pay attention to how your folks are getting your messages.

>> Loren: Yeah. Okay. This has been a good conversation. I feel like I'd ask you more about communications and stuff, but, uh, I want to respect your time. The book is again, Wired to Lead, Being the leader the church didn't think you could be. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back with some closing questions. All right, we're back with Suzanne Nadell. Thank you so much for the conversation. The question, these, uh, closing questions I always ask folks, and it

feels a bit more somber today. As we talked about, the Pope has just died. This question is meant to be more kind of like, you know, what if you had absolute control over one sort of entity in a day. So you can. You're welcome to take it from that side, or if you want to reflect, share some reflections on the actual Pope. I want to leave that to you, since we are in this current context.

>> Suzanne Nadell: Well, I will just say with current Pope in mind, uh, it's going to be very interesting where the Catholic Church goes next for their next Pope. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Suzanne Nadell: But I would just say he did a lot of things of, uh, moving forward, and it's been awesome to see them moving forward and the conversations that

some circles hadn't had before. It really goes to a lot of what we've been talking about, and he was a champion of those things, and I think that's something that I hope people talk about a lot, and I hope people keep in mind. He really was a champion of moving thought and conversations and inclusivity and loving God and loving people, uh, forward. And I think that's just something really to be celebrated. Uh, I thought he was a good messenger for that in a time when we needed it.

>> Loren: Yeah. And I felt like he really kind of got, like, the. The cultural context. I, uh, was just reading an article this morning, and I talked about, like, he didn't do a big show wherever he went, so to speak. Like, he was much more personable and, you know, less what they say. Like, he didn't do, like, the huge entourage, so to speak. >> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah.

>> Loren: I really think, like, he got that. He understood that, uh, the importance of that, like, relatability, like we've been talking about. >> Suzanne Nadell: I think he really understood who he was talking to and who he needed to reach. >> Loren: Right. >> Suzanne Nadell: And some people have used that in not good ways. Yeah, he used that in a really good way. >> Loren: Oh, that's a good point. Um,

good point. Let's do this. A theologian, a historical Christian figure you'd want to meet then or bring back to life. >> Suzanne Nadell: Priscilla. I am such a huge Priscilla Aquila story person. I've even thought about, um, giving away an idea, like, writing, like, uh, historical fiction on Priscilla. Like, I'm fascinated by Priscilla and Aquila. Like, she's mentioned before him, like, half the time or nearly half the times in the Bible. What is it she was really

up to? What was really, you know, behind all of their money and power? Like, I just. I. I, uh, want to meet Priscilla. I want to hang with Priscilla. I think she's my people. >> Loren: I just read about. Can't remember the book. I just read about making the point that Priscilla being mentioned first in those contexts, like, is a big deal. I'm trying to remember where I read that. >> Suzanne Nadell: Yeah, it's. I've read it in a few places and they're

like, that is not to be lost. And the fact that they intentionally mentioned her verse which showed that she was looked at on equal footing as a teacher and head of household. Uh, but Priscilla, Lydia, Phoebe, any of those. Prafilla first I've done a talk on. I view those three as like power women in the New Testament that we didn't talk about much growing up. And they've got some fascinating stories. >> Loren: Okay, this is a good question for you.

What do you think history will remember from our current time and place? >> Suzanne Nadell: I think it's important for us to remember this as a blip. >> Loren: Hmm. >> Suzanne Nadell: It's all of this like if you look at history books and what happens in time. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Suzanne Nadell: I'm not saying things right now are like all good or whatever, but.

>> Loren: Mhm. >> Suzanne Nadell: We've been in bad times before and this is really like part of a larger thing. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Suzanne Nadell: Not just like a decade. It's not like they're like, you know, on, you know, it's gonna be a full chapter on it. There's gonna be a full chapter on World War II through now. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Suzanne Nadell: Like this is all a little part of big history.

And I think we've got to remember, looking back, they're going to look at now in the context of what has happened in the 50 years before us and the 50 years after us. >> Loren: It's helpful to have that perspective. >> Suzanne Nadell: I think too, with that too. I think we have to look at also what's come up and what's led to this point. And I think in history what we look at, looking at what led up to this point.

>> Loren: Sure. >> Suzanne Nadell: As much as at this point and we want to get and uh, talk about at this point right now and not talk about what got us to this point. And there are some things we've got to alter about what got us to this point. And that was decades in the making. >> Loren: Yeah, that's a good point. Okay, this, this last question I feel like, feels appropriate because you spend so much your, your books, you know. Dear church, Dear

church, dear church. What are your hopes for the. Dear church, what are your hopes for the future of Christianity? >> Suzanne Nadell: That we become less politically divided. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Suzanne Nadell: It's an interesting time. And my hope is that we become kind of like. I look at us in like, you know, smaller areas where the church is just needed and it's that center of your community, it's your neighborhood church, it's that small town Church.

It's, it's that center, both spiritually, physically and everything that ties us together. And I think we've got to revert to some of that, uh, thinking.

>> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. Uh, it does seem like, broadly speaking, like the whole megachurch model is slipping away or declining in some ways and even mega churches are going to a satellite campus type model to try to be more invested in their local neighborhoods rather than just like a 30 minute commuter, transitory type church. >> Suzanne Nadell: We need community, we need people. All of these things that I've talked about, connecting with

people and community and stories. You only get that from actually living in community with people. Yeah, and I think that's a lesson for the church too. >> Loren: Well, share where people can connect with you. Get the book, all that stuff. >> Suzanne Nadell: So wired to lead. You can get it where most books are sold. Amazon, Chalice Press, who is my, uh, publisher, their website. So please check it out there and then you can follow me on Instagram as my main social media

source. At suzannedell, I'm there nearly every day. I share these things called back deck chats. Um, my blog, suzannadel.com is where you can check that out. I also have courses and then I'm also involved in, as I kind of transition out of news later this year, an organization called she Leads Church, which is@she leads church.com and that is about embracing female Christian leaders both in the church space and in the marketplace space.

>> Loren: That's awesome. Cool. I didn't realize that was a thing you're working on. I'm, uh, going to follow that and look forward to hearing more and seeing more about that. Well, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate the conversation. We always leave folks with a word of peace, so may God's peace be with you. >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media.

We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website@uh, future-christian.com and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the podcast pod to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.