Kyle Norman on Finding God when Faith Feels Hard

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. >> Loren: Today, Martha Tatarnic welcomes the Reverend Kyle Norman to the show. Kyle is a

priest, author and speaker. He holds a bachelor's degree in philosophy, a master's in divinity, and a doctorate in spiritual formation. He currently lives in Kamloops, British Columbia with his wife and son. Currently, Kyle is The rector of St Paul's Cathedral and Dean of the Territory of the People. Kyle is also the author of Alive, Loved and Finding Jesus When Faith is Hard, which tackles the tricky issues of feeling discouraged in our faith. As always, please take a moment to.

>> Loren Richmond: Rate and review the show and share. >> Loren: Future Christian with a friend. You can connect with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. Thanks so much for joining us as. >> Loren Richmond: We faithfully discern the future of the church. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I'm your host for today's episode, Martha Tatarnic And I'm so very happy to be joined today by the Very Reverend Kyle

Norman. We are fellow colleagues in the Anglican Church of Canada. I don't think that we have actually met in person, but we have talked over the years and, uh, had some, um. Fun church nerd moments. >> Kyle Norman: Exactly. Yes. I don't. We haven't, um. Yeah, no, we haven't met in person, but I've always enjoyed chatting with you when we get to geek out over stuff. So it's my pleasure to be here. So thank you very much for having me.

>> Martha Tatarnic: All right, well, we have some exciting things to talk about today, namely your brand new book, uh, Alive, Loved and Free. But we're going to get to that in a moment because it's important to just give our listeners, our audience, a sense of who you are and, uh, what you're about. So, Kyle, maybe you can share with all of us a little bit about your faith journey, what that has looked like in the past and what that looks like now.

>> Kyle Norman: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I grew up in the Anglican Church. Ah. My first memories were sitting in the front of the church, uh, reading the liturgical book. So before Sunday school, I would see how far I could get before I had to go down. Uh, and so it was always. >> Martha Tatarnic: That really says a lot I have to say. >> Kyle Norman: Yeah, exactly. Um, and so just grew up in the church and spent some time as a youth worker.

Had the call to ministry when I was in grade 10, um, and then seminary and I was in a church in the B.C. then I was 13 years in Calgary and have now moved into being the rector of St Paul's Cathedral and the dean of the diocese. So I have quite the complicated role but I get to talk with a wide variety of people in the church. Ministers, uh, both um, lay and ordain new um members joining the Anglican Church, um, and some of our rural areas just going to the church that's there.

And so it's quite a unique kind of thing. So uh, it's been a fun ride so far. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well just a couple of uh, little follow up things about what you just shared. It's amazing how many people get their call in that age range. It was the same for me. I was 15, it was grade 10. Um, and I've talked to so many people that it's that age, it's 15. Um, and not just like call to ministry but like call to a variety of like vocations.

So I just had to comment on that because I find it remarkable. And then because our listeners aren't uh, you know, all Anglican or even primarily Anglican. Can you just say a little bit more about what that role of dean is? Because not everybody would know what that title ah is. >> Kyle Norman: Sure. Thank you. Yeah. So the dean in the Anglican context is

um, so it's an area role. So we are headed by a bishop and the bishop is the senior pastor amongst the pastors and the one who kind of heads up the diocese. And the dean is kind of like the second in command. And so I help the bishop um, navigate the complexity of ministry in the

diocese. And so um, we have about 14 parishes and 31 different congregations in the territory of the people where I am it's a smaller diocese and so I help, I deal with the clergy, I help manage conflicts if they arrive or maybe we should say when they arrive. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, when. >> Kyle Norman: And uh, then I, yeah so I aid the bishop, um, and I take some things that I can do so that she is freed up to do only the things that the bishop can do.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, that's great. That's just helpful for our listeners to kind of have a sense of how our Anglican polity works. >> Kyle Norman: Yes, exactly. >> Martha Tatarnic: So Kyle, is there a spiritual practice that, uh, you're finding particularly meaningful right now, particularly as you navigate those various roles and, uh, leadership. >> Kyle Norman: Yeah. I have always been a fan of morning prayer.

Um, and um, like again, as an Anglican, from the liturgical book, so not just praying in the morning, but doing this daily office. And so, um, that's always been kind of sustaining for me. And it goes up and down depending on the busyness in the seasons. But it really helps me to be able to do that, um, in the morning before I go to my phone, before I check my emails, before I do anything, to be able to go and sit down and engage in this time of

prayer. Um, it helps settles me and it helps prepare me for what I might be facing. >> Martha Tatarnic: Well, um, one of the things that I love about doing this podcast is noting those connections, like, across the various conversations that we have and uh, especially because we have conversations across a variety of denominations. I have said this so many times that I feel like I'm beginning to sound like, uh, an advertisement for the daily office.

But so many people name that as like the practice that is grounding and like connecting for them and not just Anglicans. Like, I find it totally remarkable. >> Kyle Norman: It's fabulous. Part of my, when, uh, I did my doctorate, part of my doctoral research was taking a group of people and leading them in morning prayer for ten weeks. Um, in this research study I had to do. And by week three or four, the majority of them had said, this is a

defining practice of my life. That, that I, that is, um, one person said morning prayer has hacked my morning. Right. Because it just, it reframed everything. Right. And so it's, it's really a powerful activity. >> Martha Tatarnic: So future Christian listeners, if you haven't tried the daily office, it might be something to really consider because I, I think that this is a, a message that we keep getting across our various guests. It's pretty cool. >> Kyle Norman: Absolutely.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, so like I said at the beginning, we are here to talk about your brand new book called Alive, Loved and Free. And um, I am really grateful that you sent me an advance copy. I had an opportunity to read it. It is such a personal book and it is such a pastoral book. Like, it is just like exploding with heart for God's people is how I would define

it. So maybe you can just get us into uh, the premise of the book, especially like, what prompted you're writing it. >> Kyle Norman: Yeah, so what? So the book follows my journey of dealing with, um, or going through a period of time which was the hardest kind of spiritual time that I've ever Been a part of dealing, um, with my wife's cancer diagnosis and subsequent, um, chemotherapy and all of that. And I'm very, very clear that this is my story as. As

priest and as caregiver. It's not her story. Um, she gets to tell her story. Um, and I'm also clear, like, I had the better deal of this, right? Like, she had chemotherapy and nausea and hair loss. And, you know, I struggled with prayer, like, but, you know, I was unprepared for the. Just the amount of spiritual upheaval I would end up in, um, having to walk with my wife through this. I talked about morning prayer, and I just. I couldn't pray. Like, my. That liturgy just dried up.

And, um, I had such a hard time dealing with everything that m. It really changed the way that I understand ministry and how to pastor people in the midst of this seemingly difficult time in their lives. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. So it was really, like, a matter of, like, the rubber hitting the road for you in terms of things that maybe had been theoretical or, like, at a distance and suddenly or living it, uh, is that fair to say? >> Kyle Norman: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, um,

you know, like, it's easy. So my wife is diagnosed on Maundy Thursday. And so part of this is also, like, part of the book takes my journey and my struggles and pairs it with the great three days. So Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, and Holy Saturday. And that's how I structure the book. But, yeah, up until that point, you know, I could make my solemn meditations on Maundy Thursday and Good Friday from the ease of my seat. Right. And it was all very, you know, theological and

biblical and, oh, it's so great. But it was very easy. Um, and then in the midst of that time, feeling just almost probably for the first time, feeling this visceral, I have no clue what to do, and I have no clue where God is in the midst of this. Um, and so very, very personal. And because we don't always talk about

these kind of things in the church, um, in any sort of. Kind of real way, um, again, was completely unprepared for, um, what was coming. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. So let's take that apart a little bit more. Um, um, like, what are the things that we're missing? Like, certainly we have a faith and a tradition that, you know, keeps, like, our mortality and the frailty of life quite

viscerally in front of us. Uh, we're recording this the day after Ash Wednesday, which, um, you know, like, we get to show up and be told you're gonna die. So. >> Kyle Norman: Sure. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah, here's some ashes. It's, uh, not gonna last. Right. Like, we do, we have a lot of honesty in our tradition that I think is, like, quite in contrast to the world around us, um, which has a bit of an allergy to talking about aging and, um, frailty and death. So, like,

what. What would you identify as kind of the missing pieces? Uh, uh, like in. In what we're not talking about and. And how we're not kind of engaging people. >> Kyle Norman: Well, and that's. And that's. I think it's hard to. It's hard to pick apart in some sense. You know, it's. I know that for myself, part of my struggle was that I had adopted a personality that. And maybe because, you know, because I'm the priest, that I have to have everything put together right, and I

have to have the answers, and I have to be okay. And so when people say, kyle, how are you doing? I just say, fine. Right. And, um. And I think, you know, I brought that in as the priest, but I think so often we. We

cultivate that in the community as well. That the community is the place that the church, you know, even though we disagree with it and we know theologically it's not the case, but we, like, in practical terms, I think sometimes the community develops this attitude that this is the place to go when you have all the answers figured out and everything's okay. Um, and you can sit in the pew with the people that are like you. And when people ask you, how are you doing? All they

want is, I'm fine. And so when people come up against something, and I'm sure, you know, as a pastor, I'm sure that you have found this as well. People enter into a time of discouragement or struggle, and they say, I have to leave the church. And once I figure it all out, well, then I'll come back. Well, nine times out

of ten, they don't. Right. And so, um, rather than the church being this place, this gathering place, where it's okay not to be okay and it's okay to articulate that and why we've developed that attitude, I'm not exactly sure, you know, but I do know that there needs to be a willingness to. To articulate those deep hurts of the soul and those deep discouragements, um, And.

And build a culture that says that these are the places in which we might actually find community more, but also find God in the midst of it. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there definitely is a real strain of Christian thought and culture around, um, you know, the strength of your faith, uh, being measured kind of by an absence of doubt. Your faith is strong enough to move mountains. You're not gonna acknowledge the possibility that it's not gonna work out or that you don't

have everything figured out. I mean, I think that can be a part of Christian culture. I think maybe also what you're naming is, in our Anglican tradition, there can be, ah, a politeness to our church culture, ah, like a reserved, um, kind of nature to our church culture that people do want to present as having things together. >> Kyle Norman: Um, I think so. And that's part of why I wanted to write the book.

Right. Is, um, in every church that I've been a part of, and I'm 22 years into ministry, and I've been in various different churches, from rural churches to an urban church and now to a cathedral, um, and I have met faithful Christian men and women, um,

who deep within, carry a certain amount of shame or guilt because they feel they're doing it wrong. Right. Because they hear. They read in books or they hear in a sermon that God answers prayer, and they think, well, I've never had God answer one of my prayers. Or, you know, this person talks so passionately about feeling the love of Jesus, and. But I don't know if I've ever felt the love of Jesus. And so there must be some. And these are people who have sat in the same Pew for 30 years.

Right. And so what I wanted to do was articulate that this kind of sense of Pollyanna, uh, everything is okay, um, is not actually the biblical understanding of faith at all. Um, and we need to be honest about that. >> Martha Tatarnic: And you figured that out in a very personal way. Yeah. Um, Yeah, I think that sense of inadequacy can be really rife. And I hear it a lot around prayer, especially that people kind of feel like everybody else understands how to pray. But, like, it feels

not straightforward for me. Right. >> Kyle Norman: Like, yeah, absolutely. I remember, um, and this was probably just maybe two years or so before, um, Alicia's diagnosis, um, and just kind of recognizing nobody had ever actually taught me to pray. Like, Right. In terms of, like, I could say the words and. But it was kind of assumed,

you know, you'll figure it out. All through university, all through Sunday school, all through seminary, nobody had kind of said, let's really talk about what prayer is in this kind of internal way. And let's talk about what it means to, you know, to pray our supplications. But let's also talk about lamentations and how that is a really Authentic way, like, you can scream and you can yell and you can do all of that.

Um, and so I had done a lot of reading, which I think was very preparatory and, you know, and very kind of well timed divinely for what I was going to be heading into. Um, but that didn't take away the visceralness of being in those places at that time. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, Yeah, I can appreciate that. So, um, connected to, like, that sense of inadequacy.

And I think that feeling, that kind of scared feeling a lot of people can have about, like, yeah, maybe their faith doesn't measure up to what is expected or what others, um, have experienced. You share a lot of other stories that I think are very much related to this, of people who have come to believe that they're, like, just not worthy of God's love. Um, that they're not good enough, that their faith isn't good enough. That can also be

connected to forgiveness. And, like, maybe other people can be forgiven, but if they knew what I had done or who I am inside, like, they would know that I can't be forgiven. That there's, like, kind of this haunting sense of inadequacy that can, like, play out in a lot of different ways in the minds and experiences of. Of us and of our people. Like, do you have kind of a sense of where these messages come from, how people end up feeling this way?

>> Kyle Norman: Um, I think some. Some of it. And some of the people that I remember talking to, some of it is what they've been taught. And they've been taught it from, well, frankly, churches, um, or they've been taught it from religious family, um, members that they grew up with. Um, there's this one person who, for every infraction, every mistake, um, would wave their finger and say, God will get you for that. Right. And so

they. And so they grew up feeling that God is just this angry judge in the sky with, you know, just waiting just to write this divine ticket for every little thing. And they. And they took that upon themselves. I think another area is, you know, we live in a soundbite kind of world. And the sound bite culture of, um. An easy answer to something is, I think, um, one of the places where these things come out, right? God is not picking on you. God is handpicking you

to bestow his glory. Well, wait, what does that mean? Like, and all of these are just band aids that we put onto the suffering of others so that we don't have to deal with it, Right? >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think that's very True. I think that the vulnerability, um, of other people, if it's just a little too front and center, can be way too much of a reminder of our own vulnerability. Um, so I think that that's very cherry turned.

>> Kyle Norman: Yeah, I think so. Right. I think that there is that kind of understanding of, um, we don't want to deal with the stuff that is, um, vulnerable, the stuff that makes, um, us feel uncomfortable. And so we kind of, you know, placate everything under this thin veneer of spirituality, which doesn't actually help in, you know, in any sort of way.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I agree. Um, and, you know, the other thing that I think about a lot is that, like, churches by no means have a monopoly on making people feel inadequate and not good

enough. Like, that is, you know, you talk about the sound bite culture, but, like, just spend some time on social media or ask, like, some of our kids who are growing up in a social media age how inadequate they feel on a regular basis, how much, like, we are bombarded with messages about all of the ways in which we really could and should be better.

>> Kyle Norman: Oh, absolutely. Like, and it's a huge thing. I have this little reflection, um, and it was a very real, real thing, you know, as somebody who's on Facebook, on somebody, you know, on Instagram, realizing that Bobby Flay's cat has more Instagram followers than me, like, this celebrity chef's cat is killing it. And I'm like, what? Like, and it's just so easy because we live in a culture that says, this is who you should be, you know, and this is what you should be doing.

Um, that that kind of message is ultimately condemning. And because we have built this world around us that says this, how can we not sometimes take those condemnations upon ourselves? Um, and it's just. And it's rife. It's everywhere. >> Martha Tatarnic: I think it really is. And I think that to some degree, and, you know, I could be wrong about this because I didn't grow up in that version of the church at all. Like, the angry judg in the sky version of the church I

didn't grow up in. So I don't know, like, how that feels, uh, like, to grow up with that message. But I wonder sometimes whether it is the more insidious messages that, like, just get baked into your subconscious that are harder to talk back to because you almost don't even realize that they're there. >> Kyle Norman: Absolutely. And you don't realize they're there until something comes and shakes you up. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yes.

>> Kyle Norman: Right. And I didn't, like, I Didn't know that, you know, like, imposter syndrome is a thing for me. I'm a middle child. I'm always comparing myself. Um, and so, and that is something that I've kind of struggled with. But I didn't know how deeply there was this little voice that connected God's judgment to those things until all of a sudden I'm asking like, if I was a better priest, would this not have happened if I was a better husband? And, uh, I

didn't think I would ever ask those questions. But all of a sudden those come rising up within me. And again, that was part of the upheaval. And it was just like, what is, what is going on here? Um, and then that really just kind of created, um, like that was in 2015, we're now in 2025. That created a 10 year journey of me wanting to explore and write about this sense of discouragement in faith

and wrestling in faith. And what if actually the position of faith is wrestling and it's in the wrestling that we find that we actually are wrestling with a God who comes to us. Right. Uh, and doesn't just leave us, doesn't just push us to the side, doesn't just wait till we have it all figured out, but, uh, is actually the one who comes and dwells with us in that moment. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah. That's so beautiful.

So, like, do you feel, are there a couple of key things that you think the church could be doing that could help toward this healthier faith that could, you know, help people in their discouragement and doubts and inadequacy? >> Kyle Norman: Yeah, like, I think that, you know, depending on how you, um, where you're asking that question from in terms of the church. Right. So if you're asking from the position of church leadership, one of the things that I think that

priests and pastors need to do is we need to be vulnerable and we need to be honest. We need to be able and not this fake vulnerability, this fake honesty that says, oh, back in the day, well, that's when I was struggling, but now I have all the answers. We need to be willing to articulate. I don't know what to do and I don't have the answers. Um, and I need some help for whatever is going on. We need to be able to do that in order to create that culture that allows somebody to say, I hear

myself in that. And then therefore, then community is built. Um, and then I think for the church, you know, I don't want to talk about programs or anything like that, but I do Think we need to develop the capacity to sit with each other in our struggles and not, uh, and not rush to the solutions. Uh, and not always be quick to kind of lay out the pathway. Right. To say, oh, well, I've had that too. And this is how I went through it. And that might be true.

Fabulous. >> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. >> Kyle Norman: But. >> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. >> Kyle Norman: That can feel condemning. As if, well, I've progressed. Um, and when you progress too, then we will be able to chat about that. Well, what does it look like for you to sit in the ashes with that person? Ah. And like Job's friends before they started talking, just sit there, not actually pose any answers and just be there in care

and support. Because that's what people are wanting for. They want to know they're not alone in whatever they're struggling with. Uh, and then in the midst of that, uh, we grow in our capacity to find God in the midst of that. So. Yeah, so I think probably vulnerability and honesty in the midst of the church culture I think is a big thing. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think it's a big thing too. And I think that you're right. It can be, um, it can be modeled from the pulpit.

I would add a little footnote though. I would just say, like, as you know, I'm a writer and um, there's hardly a vulnerability that I haven't articulated loud either, like in sermons or in writing or what have you. And you know, some of it's like, not that pretty. Um, like there is an appetite for, uh, pastors that present as having it all figured out. Like it can make people a little, um, A little squeamish. I think sometimes when, um, that is named so front and center. That's not to say I

don't fully agree with you, because I do. I just think like, leaders should be aware that it does come with some risks. >> Kyle Norman: Well. And it comes from some risk. And what we should say is that we're not talking about sensationalism. M. Either. Right. Like there is. And we're not talking about working out your own stuff in the midst of people.

Right. Like there is a way in which you share your vulnerability in a way which puts its eyes on you, which is sensationalist or in which you are using your congregation as your therapist. Right. And that. And that's unhealthy whatsoever. Right. And so I think what we need to do is it is a fine line of saying we need to be honest and real about struggles about, um, hurts about our insufficiencies about and

be. And struggles and be honest about that also recognizing that in the pastoral relationship, that naturally creates a certain amount of boundaries, and we need to recognize what those boundaries are and work within those boundaries for our health, but also for their health, too. Like, that's just a loving thing to do. Uh, so there is a nuance there that we need to recognize. You're right. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. I think that those are some excellent guidelines.

And you're right. Like, it's sort of, uh, a combination, I think, of good boundaries and common sense and a bit of gut instinct. >> Kyle Norman: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Absolutely. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So, um, I mean, the book is so personal, but you talk about, like, just some very universal,

uh, experiences as well. And I would say, particularly, like, some universal questions that I certainly hear, like, time and time again as a pastor, as a leader in the church, that, you know, there's, like, very common pitfalls for people spiritually. And I like how you get into these pitfalls, um, drawing on a bunch of different resources, like your own walk of faith, the things that you learned through your wife's illness, um, uh, the resources of the Bible and of our

prayer life and of our worship life. Like, it all. You kind of draw on all of it. But I wonder whether we can just talk about a few of these questions and maybe you can just share what you have learned about what is helpful in how we respond to these questions when they come up, and maybe what's not helpful. So, um, you know, I think the first one and the biggest one and the most common one is like, why is this happening to me? Like, if God loves me, why would God do this to me?

Or, like, you know, I try to be a good person. Like, how can this. Like, uh, basically is like, they're no judge. Justice. >> Kyle Norman: Uh, absolutely. You know, I remember wrestling with those questions in the midst of, you know, because you ask those questions in the midst of sickness and death and all that stuff. And so when my wife was going through cancer, I asked, why is this happening? And it dawned on me, wait a minute. If somebody were actually

say. To be able to say to me, okay, Kyle, um, Alicia got cancer because of this reason. This is the reason, and this is how it's going to work out and all that kind of stuff, would that actually make it less painful? No, like, that actually wouldn't help me at all. Um, I actually think it would make actually things worse. And so I actually think that there is. And hopefully people understand what I'm saying. Almost this beauty in the fact that we don't get an answer.

Right. Because when we try to put an answer like Job's friends, we're almost probably 100% wrong. And so there's this, you know, so it's wonderful that God doesn't give us an answer. God's response is to come to us. God gives us a presence. Right. And so, you know,

nobody can, unfortunately. Why is this happening? I can't say why this is happening. Um, but what I can say, what I think the Bible says, what I think that I've experienced is that in the midst of that question and asking that question, and as gut wrenching and visceral as it is, uh, God meets us in that, um, God meets that question not with a rationale, but with God's loving and grace filled presence.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. So that move away from like trying to litigate it to like helping people be attentive to God's presence. >> Kyle Norman: Yeah. And we can ask those questions. Job asked those questions. The psalmists totally ask those questions. So like, rip away Jesus did. >> Martha Tatarnic: Like, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? >> Kyle Norman: Um, so ask away. Yell, scream, stomp your feet, do all of that. That is a faithful

response. But we don't always get the answers. And it's actually okay not to have the answers because God gives us God's, uh, presence. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I like that. I like um, giving tons of permission for those questions to be part of faithful living, um, but also the lack of answers to be part of it too. So I think the next refrain, uh, that I hear a lot is pretty connected to um, that piece around being more attentive to the presence of God.

What if I can't feel God's love? What if, like I hear other people's spiritual experiences and they don't match up with my own? >> Kyle Norman: Absolutely. And I actually had someone. So the title of the uh, of a chapter is what if I don't feel God's Love? And somebody actually asked me that after a service. Um, I, the service was done, I preached, did the communion. The person came up to me afterwards and said, kyle, do you always experience God's love? Because I

don't. And so what I articulated her in that brief moment and what I tried to articulate in the chapter, I have this phrase, God's love is a fact, not a feeling. Like God's love is not the equivalent of a schoolyard crush that just makes us feel positive and butterfly and Twitter painted all the time. That's not what God's love is. God's, uh, love is a fact of God's existence to which we claim in boldness that we are surrounded by God's love, because that is what Jesus shows us now. I

think we can feel God's love. And the closer we get to Jesus, the closer we get to those times of feeling God's love. But if we are in a season where it's like, I'm just, I don't feel God's love in this moment or whatever, then that doesn't mean God's love is absent. The lack of feeling doesn't denote the lack of existence, because God's love is a fact of who God is. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I like that. And, you know, I think it's probably also related to that culture change that

you name. Like, I think, um, the more that people can share the variety of ways in which they experience God at work in their lives, experience God's presence and love, I think the more that that helps other people to find the language that works for their experiences as well. Like to say, it's not a cookie cutter kind of thing. Right? Like, we don't all experience God showing up in the same way. >> Kyle Norman: Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, definitely.

>> Martha Tatarnic: What about forgiveness? Uh, like, what about people who think that they can't be forgiven? How do you respond to that? >> Kyle Norman: When I've recently had that question, and one of the things that I found myself reflecting on and doing is walking through them, the parable of the unmerciful servant. And at least that first part, and just the dramaticness of Jesus tells a story of the servant who owes 10,000 talents. Who. And I say, just let's stop there.

Um, that the whole, um, understanding of 10,000 talents in those days was 10,000 was the biggest number. A talent was worth 20 years of wage. And so this servant owed the master like an equivalent of a gazillion dollars. Right. And the whole point being, and what Jesus is trying to say is that forgiveness is uncalculable. Right? And so there is nothing that we can do to work ourselves out of that forgiveness. And, uh, it's just not a thing.

And, you know, theologians, sometimes we can parse around what is the unforgivable sin, the blasphemy of the Spirit, and what does that mean? And blah, blah, blah. But if you're asking that question out of a desire to really, you know, enter into the forgiveness of God, um, you're not committing, you're not blaspheming the Spirit. So, like, let's not even worry about that sometimes. Um, I think what is hardest in forgiveness is not being

forgiveness. Being forgiven is accepting forgiveness is daring to believe that that it's true. And so I try to reframe it. I try to walk through that parable and say, there is no, you know, forgiveness is unlimited. It is always held out for us. There is no sense in which that forgiveness will be withheld. And so the question isn't, you are unforgivable. The question that we can talk about is, what does it mean for you to accept it? And what does it mean for you to dare to

live in the midst of that? Um, and then that just moves the conversation in a different direction. Um, which, which deals with struggles and whatever was going on in their lives. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Okay, let's do one more. So I think this is also a big one. Um, doubt. You know, people. People will tell me all the time that, uh, that they're not very good Christians because they have lots of doubts because, like, there are things that they don't understand

or things that they can't accept. Um, there are lots of people who tell me that they're, you know, not a, uh, believer at all because they, you know, wrestle with certain doctrines or proclamations. So what's a helpful response to people's doubt? >> Kyle Norman: Well, the helpful response is, uh, is twofold. One is we need to remember that Israel is wrestling, right? And so Israel is named Israel because he wrestled with God. Right. And so that sense of

wrestling with something we don't understand, wrestling with. Where is God wrestling with? I don't get this doctrine. That's actually a faithful response. And so you can lean into that. You can recognize that you are faithful and still have some doubts. And that's okay. But then I also like to, um, talk a little bit about doubting Thomas. And,

you know, it's just one. I love doubting Thomas. We give him a bad rap. Uh, but it's unfairly. Unfairly, but it's an amazing thing. So if you. And we're going to read the story just after Easter, but, you know, we all know the story. Thomas says, oh, if I, you know, if. Unless I put the nails in my hands and blah, blah, blah, and all this, I will not going to believe. And so we kind of lean

into that. But there's this little phrase in the text that says, you know, after eight days, Jesus returns and Thomas is amongst them. Okay, wait, wait. So for eight days, for a whole week, Thomas is in a place where he doesn't know what to believe. And he doesn't believe in the resurrection and he doesn't get it, and he doesn't understand how all this works out, but he is willing to journey with a community.

As they talk about the story, as they sing the hymns, as they pray for each other, and Thomas is there saying, I don't get it, but he's willing to journey with them. And then at some point in the journey, he meets the risen Lord. And um, so just because you have a doubt, and it might even be a big doubt again, that doesn't mean you have to separate yourself from the community, keep a part of the community. And it might actually be in the midst of the. Might not take eight days, it might take a

little bit longer. Right. But in the midst of that community, as you, as you sing the community songs, as you join with the people and as you listen to the stories, it might be in that context that you meet the risen Lord as opposed to, I'm going to leave and be by myself. And then once again, and once I figure it out, then I'll come back. Uh, it might actually be in that place that you meet the risen Lord and you find the answer that you're looking for.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And you know, I think further to that, like, I think we really need to frame in the context of community the gift of doubt. Because like, if it, like when communities get like way too hyped up on certainty, like that can result in a lot of hysteria and um, like bad behavior and so on. Like that gift of belief and doubt all sort of working itself out in discernment in a community like Thomas plays, ah, an important role in the post resurrection days of

like, okay, what is this? Like, what is going on here? Like, that's a really important question. Did everybody just have a collective delusion or like, is there something real here? So, yeah, um, I think framing that communally and framing that scripturally is so important. >> Kyle Norman: Well, and for the church community as well, church going like, so Thomas does believe my Lord and my God, but then it's not all roses. After that, the community still

struggled. They still had to work really hard against all sorts of things that they never thought they'd have to deal with and try to figure it out. Circumcision versus uncircumcision, barbarians at the end, like all of this kind of stuff. And some places they did very, very well. And some places they had to work really hard to maintain the community. And so articulating the gamut of doubt and struggle within the Christian experience as a whole, I think is important.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that is absolutely true. And you know, I think that can be very much in the category of discouragement, spiritual discouragement, if people Think that they're gonna have this moment of clarity, this moment of revelation, um, that is just gonna settle everything. And like then you've arrived, like then everything is figured out. Uh, like we never get to just arrive. We always are, uh, a work in progress.

>> Kyle Norman: Absolutely. And that's a, and that's a beautiful thing. But also we need to articulate that that means that we're always moving into, in some sense another place of uncertainty. Right. And as we need to figure out. Okay, so where does my life with God? What does that mean in this new place? >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, you know, being clear about expectations is, is really important.

So what has changed for you most as a church leader through this 10 year journey through writing this book? What's the biggest takeaway for you? >> Kyle Norman: I think for me, the biggest takeaway for me is I feel like I lead more from the heart than the head now. Um, and yeah, you know, I like that at the beginning I really appreciated that you said that the book is a pastoral book and you said

that there's a lot of heart in it. And that makes me feel good because I think, not that I was this overly heady person, however, but I can find it easy just to live in my head. And so I think I have grown in my capacity to be that heart filled presence for a person rather than the learned theologian, if that makes sense. And so I think I've grown in that capacity and I think that's only made me a better preacher. I think it's made me a better pastor

and I think it makes. It makes me a better priest. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Like the word that's coming to mind for me, and I may or may not be using it correctly, is just empathy. Like that. It seems to me that there's a big part of this journey that, um, just found you walking a lot more closely with people's lived experiences. >> Kyle Norman: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And engaging. And engaging my faith, like there was an inner

transformation that happened within me as well. So engaging my faith in a whole different way. And not that I didn't have my personal relationship with Jesus before, but it's, I would say it's, it's stronger, it's maybe more else I would maybe say it's more intense, but it's also more personal, uh, more emotive now than um, before. >> Martha Tatarnic: So the corollary to that question is what would you want the

biggest takeaway to be for the church? What would you most like the church to be communicating? >> Kyle Norman: That's a good question. You know, I recognize so in this moment. I recognize that there's a lot of anxiety in the. In the Western world. You know, I. We're in Canada. Um, your listeners are probably some in the States as well, and I have friends in the States, and, like, tensions are ramped up. And I think it's tempting on each side for the churches to articulate a

position. Right. To articulate something that we can say that will make it make sense and help us navigate this. And what I just. What I'm feeling in this moment is perhaps the place is to be is not articulating, again, the right answer, the right position, but just articulating that anxiety and what people are feeling and saying it's okay to feel that way, and God meets us in this place, and let's pray from that place.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that's really good. And I think, um, just being attentive to that desire in times of anxiety and uncertainty to be the strong leader, to be the one with the answers to, you know, have some magic bullets for people. Um, I think just articulating that particular pitfall does make it easier to live in the tension, to pray from the tension, to look for the presence of God. I think that's super important. Okay, so the book is alive, loved, and free. I highly

recommend it. How can people get their hands on this book? >> Kyle Norman: Book? Uh, you can get it by, um, going on to Amazon ca. So it's published through KDP and Amazon, and so that is really the only place that you can get it. It's available in paperback, uh, but also in Kindle. >> Martha Tatarnic: Awesome. Uh, okay, well, we're going to take a quick break. We're going to come back for some closing question. Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.

I am with the very Reverend Kyle Norman, and we're going to wrap up with some closing questions. Now, Kyle, these are questions that we ask all of our guests, and we always tell them that you are welcome to take these questions as seriously as you want or not. >> Kyle Norman: Sure. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. >> Kyle Norman: Yeah, absolutely. >> Martha Tatarnic: So, Kyle, if you were pope for the day, what would that 24 hours entail?

>> Kyle Norman: Well, it would definitely be riding around in the popemobile. Like, I would. I would hit a drive through. Honestly, I would do that. Uh, I think if I was pope for a day, I would want to try to get together some Christian leaders and just say, brass tacks. Our divisions are not helpful. How can we work together? And just, um, let's have those conversations. >> Martha Tatarnic: All right. In the Pope Mobile, maybe in the.

>> Kyle Norman: Popemobile as we go through McDonald's. I don't know. >> Martha Tatarnic: Well, that could be the hook. You know, the invitation comes with exactly the drive through in the Popemobile. How could anybody resist? >> Kyle Norman: Yeah, exactly. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. Who is a, uh, theologian or historical Christian figure that you would want to meet, have a meal with, bring back to life?

>> Kyle Norman: Well, what I would, uh, there's so many, but Dietrich Bonhoeffer, I would. Because I think what he articulated in his life in terms of state, um, state religion and how it was responding to oppression and violence and autocracy and all that stuff is what we are seeing today. And so if there's anybody who could help peel back the onion layers a little bit, I would say here's a beer, go right. And just have a chat with him.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I would say that answer has been coming up a little bit more lately, and I do think that it is a measure of the time and space that we're in right now. What are your hopes? Oh, sorry. What will history remember from, uh, this current time and place? >> Kyle Norman: Ooh, I think history will. I think history will remember the rise and fall of social media. I think. You know, um, what was it like? TikTok was canceled for 24 hours and

people went nuts. And so I think, I think from the standpoint of, um, a hundred years from now, or 200 when they look back, I think it's going to be social media is a thing, but I think it's going to, it's going to rise and it's going to come crashing down or replaced by something new. And I think that's what people are going to remember. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, interesting. Yeah. Uh, what are your hopes for the future of Christianity? For the future of the church?

>> Kyle Norman: My hopes for the future of the church is a, uh, growth in vibrant but smaller churches. Right. So I think God's vision for the church is not global denomination. Right. I think God's vision is not where every church is a megachurch. I think God's vision is small pockets of Christians gathering together in vibrancy and passion. Uh, and that might be 100 people here and 50 here and

maybe 200 here and all that stuff. But smaller yet more connected, authentic and vibrant Christian communities. >> Martha Tatarnic: Beautiful. Kyle, where can people find more about you? >> Kyle Norman: So I have a website which is www.revkylenorman.ca. so that's where you can find me. Um, and then if you are in the Kamloops area, then you can just show up at St. Paul's Cathedral and I'm there every Sunday. So,

uh, those are kind of the places that you can find me. And you know, I'm on TikTok and I'm on, uh, Facebook, so you can Google Reverend Kyle Norman and you'll find me. >> Martha Tatarnic: And the Kamloops area is quite scenic, right? Like, it's quite beautiful, isn't it? >> Kyle Norman: Yeah, uh, it's great. We got, um, we have hills. We're surrounded within about half an hour, about an hour drive. I don't know, something like 300 lakes. Like it. It is a beautiful

environment. And so, yeah, if you're coming up, um, Vancouver's great, but Kamloops is where it's at. So come to Kamloops. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. So come for the scenery. Stay for a conversation with me. Absolutely. Yeah. >> Kyle Norman: Ah, exactly. Definitely. There you go. >> Martha Tatarnic: Sounds good. Okay. Well, I so appreciate your time today and this conversation

and this book. We always end with the word of peace, so may the peace of the Lord be always with you, Kyle. >> Kyle Norman: And also with you. >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website at ah, future-christian.com and find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get

in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.