Jocelyn Jones on How to Start Your Ministry

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond, Jr. Welcomes the Reverend Jocelyn Jones to the program. Reverend Jocelyn is an author,

speaker, and entrepreneur. Jocelyn's background as a journalist, executive director of a nonprofit, and community leader allows her to connect with people from all walks of life. She received her bachelor's degree from the University of Iowa in journalism. After receiving her B.A. she earned her master's degree in social work and her master's degree in theological studies. Jocelyn published her first book in 2019 called Breaking the Power of the Mask.

Jocelyn is an ordained minister and the president of Faith on the Journey, a Christian counseling company specializing in grief and trauma. She is a master facilitator with the Trauma Healing Institute and the founder of the Women in the Ministry, which helps women to start, grow, and sustain transformative ministries that change the world. A reminder. Before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and share Future Christian with a friend.

Connect with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro uh.com with comments, questions, or ideas for future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern the future of the church. >> Loren: Okay. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am Loren Richmond Jr. And today I am pleased to be joined by Reverend Jocelyn Jones. Hello and thanks for being here.

>> Rev. Jocelyn: Thanks for having me, Loren. I'm excited to be here with you today. >> Loren: Yeah, great, great, great. Uh, looking forward to this conversation. Share if you would, just a little bit about your faith background, your story, what that looks like in the past and what that looks like today. >> Rev. Jocelyn: Yeah, well, I grew up attending

a Catholic church. And so from a little girl, I was around religion, but I didn't fully understand, you know, you just kind of go through the motions, right? And so that was, for me, grade, uh, school, high school. But it wasn't until I went to college, I was on a big ten campus and Campus Crusade for Christ was present. And so they introduced me to this thing Called relationship with God. And then I also found a church home while I was in college that I attended over summer breaks.

Now in college, there's a lot of temptation. There's a lot going on. So I wasn't really serious about my walk in college, but after I graduated, I was like, no, for real, I want to do this thing. And so I actually found a church home and began this journey of really discovering what a relationship was like. And for years it vacillated between religion and relationship. But over the years, I've discovered that there's such a

big difference. And so I've been growing in this journey with my walk with God over many, many years. >> Loren: That's awesome. Thanks for sharing that. I gotta ask, can you share which. >> Rev. Jocelyn: Big ten camp is University of Iowa? I'm a Hawkeye. >> Loren: Okay. I have some, uh, have a good friend from Iowa. So I guess go Hawkeyes. Right? >> Rev. Jocelyn: All right. Right, right. >> Loren: Uh, and I didn't ask you. I'm sorry, I'm out of

sync today. Anything else you want listeners to know about you? Uh, that it's not in your bio, I suppose. >> Rev. Jocelyn: Uh, so there's, there's a number of things that are not in my bio. I think the bio talks about your highlight reel. But I think it's also important to recognize the moments in your life that aren't celebratory, but you survived. And so for me, I'm a trauma survivor. I've experienced sexual trauma and domestic violence. I've also

gone through a challenge of divorce. And that's something that I never thought I would go through. And so those are some moments in my life that were major crossroads. But God has been so good to me, sustaining me through those moments and helping me to heal through community, through the work, through my faith. And so I think that's important because it gives context as to why I'm passionate about the work that I do in ministry.

>> Loren: Yeah. Let me, let me ask this, if I may, if you're willing to share. Obviously, I've never experienced, uh, some of the things that you've experienced, and there are countless others who have similar tragedy and trauma experiences in the life. I'm curious if you're willing to share just some elements of faith practices that have sustained you or been nourishing to you as you've processed that challenges M. Mhm.

>> Rev. Jocelyn: Yes. I wish I could say, Loren, I started off the right way in trying to manage some of these things. I think that oftentimes we cope the best way we know how to survive. So when I first experienced sexual trauma in my early 20s. What I did was actually I threw myself into ministry. I threw myself into work, which is interesting because that's celebrated when you like overwork

yourself and just keep yourself busy. And I didn't realize I was just trying to run from my pain because the silence can be so loud when you don't want to be alone with your thoughts. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Rev. Jocelyn: So for me, I pretended and wore this mask for many years. And it wasn't until I realized how it was impacting my relationships and how I was struggling with like being able to let anyone in beyond just like superficial level that I was like, I need help because I'm self

sabotaging. And so in my early 30s, that's when I really said, okay, I need to start seeing a counselor. I. I need to begin working with someone. So therapy was one of my first steps in dealing with that. And I was in and out of that for some years. Now I'm regularly working through therapy because I realized that healing takes time. It's a process. And so that was one element of it. Another element of my journey was really educating myself around different healing practices that integrate my

faith. Right. So I was introduced to the Trauma Healing Institute, which uses Bible and mental health principles to create this small group Bible study to help people heal from trauma. And when I went through this process, I'm like, this is amazing because it combines my faith with mental health principles to create community so we can begin to heal. So I went through that process and then became a facilitator with the Trauma Healing Institute to start leading

groups for others. And I discovered along the way that when we are able to find safe spaces to share our sacred story, to be known and loved and not judged, and we begin to face the stuff that we've been running from, we can begin to heal. I lament, Loren, on how many times I have interacted with individuals who have been carrying their trauma for years.

I did a healing group about two, three weeks ago and there were women in the group who were 60, 70 years old who were still carrying stuff from when they were six because they never talked about it. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Rev. Jocelyn: And so that's something I want to share with your listeners. That it's this misnomer that time heals all wounds. If you leave it up to time alone without ever dealing with your stuff, you are going to carry that with you.

>> Loren: Well, this is good stuff and it's not necessarily what we're here to talk about, but I appreciate you sharing that. I'm just I'm still kind of thinking about even the beginning of that story, about how I think this is the challenge. Right. And especially in ministry, is that it's. It's so hard where overworking yourself, like you said, can be seen as a good thing. And often these practices, they can be rewarded for being not healthy.

Um, Reverend Jocelyn is the author of the book Sister Start yout A Guide to Start, Grow and Sustain a Transformative Ministry. Why don't you share about kind of what inspired the book? >> Rev. Jocelyn: For sure. So I decided to write this book because I remember when I first felt called to start my. My own ministry and I had a lot of questions. I lacked clarity. I wasn't sure which direction to go in. And I was looking for the book that I eventually wrote several years later.

>> Loren: I've heard that before. Right. Sometimes folks have to write the book they need to read. >> Rev. Jocelyn: Right, Exactly. That's really what it was. Because I think it's relevant, actually, Loren, that I talked a little bit about my backstory around trauma healing, because that's my initial ministry. I created a Christian trauma healing ministry. We do counseling, we do groups across the country. But it didn't just happen like that.

And so in this book, I talked about the process of actually stepping out and answering the call to ministry beyond the walls of the church. Many times we're familiar with ministry within the context of our sisterhood ministry, our, uh, ushers ministry, or maybe international ministry as well. But what if we're called to create a parachurch ministry because the church is not just the walls? >> Loren: Mhm.

>> Rev. Jocelyn: And some of us are called to go out and start one. But there's an element of entrepreneurship, if you will, that people need to be aware of. There's different, uh, elements in terms of really getting yourself out there, getting your framework that I didn't have clarity about. I didn't have mentorship to help me

with that. And so that is something that I wanted to provide to other women in particular, because there's also, Loren, unfortunately, certain dynamics for women who are called to ministry that we also have to uniquely overcome. And you're shaking your head because I think you know

what I'm talking about. >> Loren: Well, I'm fortunate not to have to experience them firsthand. But I'm thinking of, you know, the, the women I know in ministry who've shared their stories with me. I mean, I think I'm remembering. I think in your book, right, you talk about, was it a seminary, some kind of post, some kind of educational experience where the fact that you are pursuing Ordination really made you Persona non grata, right?

>> Rev. Jocelyn: Mm mhm. Mm, mhm. I think you're talking about when I was pursuing my, uh, biblical counseling certification and I went through this whole process for over a year, uh, submitted my application, submitted this 40 page paper, and they did not even consider my test or exam because they did not believe in women being ordained. And that was, for me, it was a crushing moment because, oh, I can only imagine. Yeah, I, I felt, quote unquote,

at the time that I wasted my time. Nothing's wasted, we know, in God's economy. But it was difficult because it's like, wait, just because I'm a woman, that's. You just. You're not considering this, you know, and so it was a life lesson around. First, you have to do your due diligence on who you are attempting to align yourself with when you are

stepping out and doing anything. But also I had to take that moment and say, well, are you just going to just like lick your wounds and feel bad about yourself in this moment, or are you going to pivot and do something different? And I did something different. I started my own practice as a result. But, uh, I share that story to say there's countless stories of women who are denied positions, who are overlooked opportunities, who are told that they should not preach, they should

not lead. I, I get sometimes hate messages on social media for the work that I do because they're saying I'm speaking, um, blasphemy. So it's a thing that we have to deal with as women who are called to lead. >> Loren: Wow, I'm so sorry. Uh, again, I'm in a position where that's not something I have to deal with firsthand. So I'm sorry you have to deal with that. And I'm thankful that you've been able to persevere. Uh, I wrote this down

here. I'm really appreciative of this quote that you said, nothing is ever wasted in God's economy. And I'm just thinking about how devastated I would have been if I'd have gotten through a similar situation. You write in the book that we are more than what people have said about us. You and your ministry are more than what people have said

about you. You obviously in that experience, if I can extrapolate, like you were an experience where people said about you, you were not cut out to be a clergy person. You are not. I mean, uh, talk more about, talk more about that and I'll listen here because I think I've succumbed to that even myself. And I know folks listening as well, who we can get trapped in that. What are people saying about me? What do people say about my

ministry? Um, and you've had to overcome that firsthand, so share more about that, if you're willing. >> Rev. Jocelyn: Yes. I still have to work through that. Sometimes. There's this deep desire, I think, that many of us struggle with, to be accepted, to be loved. And putting ourselves out there and being vulnerable and answering this call, uh, we can. We're going to have resistance. We're not meant for everyone. We're

not everyone's person. And understanding that there are certain people who we are called to, who you can uniquely reach, Loren. There's people that you can only reach that I can't reach, and vice versa. And so, uh, with that understanding, we have to understand that we can't deny the people who we are called to for the sake of the people who are going to hate on us anyway. Like, there's

going to be people who are going to see hatred. They're going to say all these negative things, and a lot of times they're projecting their own insecurities, their own fears, their own limited mindsets onto you, and it has nothing to do with you. They don't even know you yet. They are judging. And they don't have, um, the. They sometimes don't even have the courage to step out and do the work that you're doing, yet they still criticize. That's their issue.

But I've learned that I can't let these people stop me from the mission that God has given me. And I'm not sure if this is directly answering your question. I feel like I kind of got passionate when. >> Loren: That's okay, that's okay. >> Rev. Jocelyn: But that's where I'm at, Loren, because at the end of the day, I'm on assignment, just like you. Even with this work, with your podcast, you're on assignment here. So we can't get lost in the fact that people will love

you one day and hate you another. We see that with our savior, Jesus Christ. You know, on Palm Sunday, they celebrating. On Friday, they was yelling crucified. People do that sometimes. But at the end of the day, we have one person who we need affirmation from, and that's God. And outside of that, people, you know, they'll fall in line. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah, this is good. So let me ask. And this again gets back to your point about nothing ever

being wasted in God's economy. You write about how what we perceive as failure can still be used by God and Let me speak here just from my own context. Like, I am someone who let a new church start that did not make it through Covid. So when I say, like, firsthand, like, I know, I know failure, and it sucks, if I can be brutally honest. >> Rev. Jocelyn: I know.

>> Loren: So, uh, I mean, I think that has been the hardest thing for me to get my head around, my spirit around, is that, you know, talk more about

why what we define as failure should not be seen in that way. >> Rev. Jocelyn: Yeah, I appreciate your authenticity around that, Loren, because sometimes we do over spiritualize the fact that sometimes the stuff we go through just sucks. And we. And we have to name the pain around that because it doesn't feel good to suffer, it doesn't feel good to fail. And yet with that, when I look back at major turning points in my life, I've experienced tremendous growth from it. And I've also seen

God's hand in it. Now, here is the thing, though. When we go through certain events where we would describe it as a failure, there's a choice in this. Sometimes we can look at it and say, this failure is a reflection of me. And this is where we mess up. Because we take these failures. >> Loren: I'm listening. >> Rev. Jocelyn: We take these failures personal and we take it on as our identity, as it relates to our value. But our value is not rooted in our

accomplishments. That's not who we are. This is something where it didn't work out quite how we wanted it to work out. We. In your case of the story you shared, you were being obedient to God. Um, let's face it, Loren, you had nothing to do with this whole pandemic situation, Right? Like, you couldn't control this, you know? But yet, and still, like we sometimes question, I could have done more. I should have done this. I should. When certain

things are out of our control. But what was the beauty that came from the process that you went through, the people who you touched, the connections you made, the lessons that you learned, the growth that can come from that. You take that with you. Just like going back to the story of me being denied the certification through the biblical counseling. If I said that was wasted, that's a lie. For a year, I learned all this information. You can't take that away from me. The lessons you can't take

away. And we understand that from certain things that we go through. Even I, uh, talk about trauma. There's a thing called post traumatic growth. You can grow outside of the events that you've gone through. If you do the work. It's about framing, it's about learning, it's about getting the support. But I think going back to your original questions, failures don't define your value, just like success. And this

is kind of a paradigm shift, right? Like I think we can mess up when we get so caught up on our high horse around our accomplishments, establishing our value, because when those things are taken away from us, then we're setting ourselves up for a crash. So I think if we are able to know our value in Christ and say that again, going back to what I said earlier, I'm being obedient to God. If this, if this thing falls through God, the results are up to you. I'm doing what I'm doing to

be faithful to you. And that's how you navigate the failures of life. >> Loren: Yeah, I think it's. Forgive me if this is too, um. What am I trying to say, but I'm just thinking like, uh, you know, the joke's kind of on them. Like you got the training and you're doing the work, so the jokes on them because. >> Rev. Jocelyn: Exactly. >> Loren: Um, I think this kind of relates here. You talk about this in your book too, about the importance of God being our

guide, not ourselves. And again, I'll kind of just speak from my own experience. I think it is kind of easy to get lost in the process. The energy, the momentum, what have you of a new endeavor. How do you keep yourself centered? How do you advise those you're working with to keep themselves centered and focused on God? Because again, when there's. We kind of have a culture that's really excited about new. Anything new gets really

a lot of momentum, excitement around it. And sometimes it's hard to decipher between what is just like cultural people excitement versus what God really wants to do. >> Rev. Jocelyn: Mm mhm. I think Loren, is a couple things. First, it's around the people who are around us. It makes a difference. Yeah, you have to surround yourself

with wise counsel. One of the things I teach people is when we think about a nonprofit, they have a board of directors to advise them to make sure that they're staying on the right path, to raise funds and all that stuff. Who is on the board of directors of your life? Who are the people who are going to pull your coattail when they're seeing you starting to lose yourself in ministry? Who are the people who are going to pray for you and not just say they're going to pray for

you? You know what I'm talking about? No, they actually do intercede and undergird you in prayer and who create that space to call you up, to help you to rise into your crown. That is essential. And I've learned that along the years that I have to have people around me to keep me steady because I believe that there are a number of people who start off in ministry with wonderful intentions, God centered intentions.

But it's easy to lose yourself, Loren, in this work because God has given us wonderful gifts and we can start leaning into the gifts that came from God and thinking that that's coming from our own strength. And we start making the focus about us versus who we started this ministry for, to glorify in the first

place. I talked and I uh, warned sisters who I uh, coach in ministry saying, hey, we have to be careful not to be doing work for God without God because you can easily fall into that trap and start going through the motions. You can pray and do say all the things and scream out scriptures, but your relationship with God could be at a deficit. And so we have to guard against that and we have to prioritize our spiritual practices to make sure that we are operating in the spirit and not the flesh.

>> Loren: Yeah, that's so important. I mean, I can't help but think too, uh, I remember many years ago when I was in Bible college, there was young men who, they could kind of just ride the coattails of their good story. And it wasn't even like, you know, they had a good conversion story or transformation story that they could kind of ride and they didn't really

have to stay faithful and humble. And I remember kind of being kind of shocked when I remember, you know, someone who I looked at as, you know, who was an upperclassman to me and someone who I looked at as a spiritual leader or mentor kind of admitted to me like he had just been kind of like riding the coach. Tales of a good testimony, not staying faithful, listening. So I appreciate that. Mhm. Um, let me shift gears here. We've kind of been really talking theological,

philosophical or big picture. Let's dive down into some real nitty gritty because I think this is something that I thought was really the other side that was real helpful about your book. When you're, when we're, when we're thinking about someone who's starting a new ministry. You talk about the importance of. You use these words. I won't. These are your words. Selling your ministry or your idea. And uh, again I want to frame it from this context. In church spaces, in Christian spaces like that,

selling idea can be seen as a dirty word. And certainly we all know marketers and salespeople who are icky and gross. Talk about

why it's important to really share passionately what you feel like you've been called to. >> Rev. Jocelyn: Mhm. I love this question, Loren, because you're right. I think that the word sell sounds so taboo. It sounds icky to people. But I learned this even before starting my own ministry. I was an executive director of a nonprofit for almost

10 years. And I had to learn that in order for me to get funding for these children so we can do this work, I had to sell funders, donors on the fact that this is the place where you need to give your money. And using some of the same skills from uh, another life, I used to sell insurance. I had to use those same skills to be able to tell the story and convince people that this work is good and this is a place where you can invest your

resources. We will be a good steward over these resources to bear fruit, to do great godly things. And so the skills are very transferable from selling insurance to selling the vision for a nonprofit, to selling, quote unquote, your ministry. Because at the end of the day, what you are doing is conveying a message to people that what we have to offer you from a place of service. >> Loren: Mhm.

>> Rev. Jocelyn: That's the thing, that's the difference, the motive. I know that what I have to offer is helping people. My motive is not to cause harm, it's to make a difference. And for some people, for example, going back to my nonprofit story, I knew that there were donors who weren't going to necessarily be in the trenches doing the work every day. But uh, they wanted to find a place to steward

their money, to make a difference. So I'm helping you by showing you that this is a place where we're responsible, we can make that difference that you desire to make. And it's a relationship there based on trust, based on integrity. So when we're doing the work of the Lord and we a, might need resources to raise capital or we are providing a service with integrity to help people, we're doing them a, uh, disservice if we're not vocal about the fact that we have this to offer to, to serve the

world, right? And I tell people it's not a good thing to be in the witness protection program about your ministry. Like we can't do that because it's denying us the ability to help others. So as long as your motives are pure, you know, you are, uh, coming from a place of service and you're offering something that's quality, then yes, Be bold about that. The more the better. And those who you're not for, they won't, they won't, you know, be in your ecosystem

anyway. But some people are praying for your ministry. You are the answer that God is using. And so people need to know about you. And that's the whole point of that. Loren. >> Loren: Yeah, that's really good. Let me ask this too, because I think it's related. Something that I struggle with, and I know many other folks that I've run into in these kind of spaces struggle with is like compensating yourself adequately, like. And uh, again, I hate to say, like

to use the language, like billing appropriately. How do you coach, you know, upcoming leaders to like really adequately compensate or bill for their time? Because I feel like I, I make this mistake over and over again myself. >> Rev. Jocelyn: Oh, such good questions, Loren. This is a struggle, right, for a number of reasons, because many of us, we have worked in the church for years. Most of the stuff we do is volunteer based, right? So we got

that going then. For the women who I work with, sometimes we see this even in the corporate arena, we are often underpaid or we struggle to assert ourselves in terms of our needs. So we have all these dynamics going on. And I had to learn that when we are offering a quality service, just because we are Christian does not mean that

we don't get compensated fairly for this. Because I can't go to the people who I got my mortgage from and say, hey, yeah, I can't pay this mortgage this month because they're gonna be like, uh, yeah, that sounds like a personal problem. You know, like. And so when it comes to this, I believe that if you are offering, say, for instance, I teach on domestic violence and I'm a

speaker. If I'm going to do a keynote on this topic, the fact that I'm Christian, or if I was someone who was doing this from a secular standpoint, I still should be compensated for that because I'm bringing a level of expertise. I've done the work. And so for many of them, um, many people who I work with, I have to first remind them of the value that they bring to the table. Um, your education, your years of experience, the lessons that you've learned, the quality and expertise

is not diminished because of your faith. Now, yes, there's certain things that I do as a volunteer and I'm, I'm led by the spirit in terms of what I will give my back my time for, because I do believe in that. But I also think that you should be Fairly compensated for the services that you offer in the marketplace. And, uh, over time, your confidence to charge more will increase. And the last thing I'll say about this, Loren, is money is a resource. It's not the source. It's a

resource. And if we look at it like that, we are not making money in Idol. That's not the thing. But I want to be able to create a ministry that reaches far and wide to change lives. And for me to be able to do that, I need resources for that. I need to not be up to my eyeballs in debt. >> Loren: Yep. >> Rev. Jocelyn: So I have to be able to be compensated to pay my staff to do the things I need to do.

And so there's an element of being able to operate in Kingdom business as an entrepreneur to be able to sustain the ministry that God has called me to. >> Loren: Yeah, this is good. And this leads into, I think, a related question. You write that the word no was one of the most powerful words you learned

in your beginning season of ministry. So I'm thinking again, you probably know better than I do because I'm not good at no. But I can imagine there's going to be times where someone's going to come to you with a great offer that might really be a promising event. But you might have to say no, because reasons of resources, capacity, talk more about that.

>> Rev. Jocelyn: Yes. That I've had to work on as a recovering people pleaser, M who cared so much about what people thought about me and not wanting to sound mean, I would have

a neat jerk reaction of saying yes to, uh, so many things. And I'd be stressed out, out of my mind. And sometimes I would be almost resentful because I would have these events coming up and I'm like, why did I commit to this? Blah, blah, blah. And it's my fault, all my fault. And so I've had to learn to take pause and really think about, okay, Jocelyn, is this something that you want to do? Okay. Okay. You want to do it? Okay. Are you the best person for this? Okay. >> Loren: Okay.

>> Rev. Jocelyn: Um, this is the timing for this. Okay. So asking these questions and then also being clear about my priorities. In this season of life, when you don't have priorities or clarity of vision, then you can let other people set the priorities for you. And at that point, you are all over the

place. And so for me, as it relates to certain opportunities, for example, I had someone approach me for speaking engagement on a topic that I typically speak on, but it was something where they didn't have, uh, they had a small budget and that was fine. I said, you know what? I know someone who's perfect for you, who, uh, is a mentee of mine who

was. I was able to give them that opportunity. And so it's one of those things where you can delegate, you can pass gracefully on opportunities, and you can just let people know that this sounds wonderful. I'm so grateful that you considered me. But at this time, I'm unable to commit to that due to other priorities. But thank you for keeping me in mind and make that referral. I'm learning to do that as an act of grace to them and to myself.

>> Loren: Yeah, that's great. Because I think, I mean, if one, if anything, you're giving someone else a good opportunity. Right. Um, in that, the graciousness. I wrote this down. So let's review this because I think this is good. So again, do you want to. Because I think we all do a lot of things we don't really want to do. Right. Am I the best person? Is the timing right. And do they align with my

priorities in life? Because I know for me, like when I'm haggling about something, reviewing what my priorities are, my values are, or whatever really is helpful for me. M. So again, this is kind of perfect. Like, let's skip to this question. Then you write about the maybe later journal. So let's talk about the maybe later journal, how that might apply here. >> Rev. Jocelyn: Oh yes, I made that for myself because I am a

creative. And uh, for anyone who's listening, when you get the visions from God and you're like, oh, this is such a great idea, and you just getting all these downloads and sometimes I realize, listen, you could get overwhelmed with all your wonderfulness and be like a squirrel and just not completing anything. And so I had to create. I actually create, created a planner for women in ministry. And I

put in the planner. The maybe later list is a section in planner where, you know, you can capture your ideas in a. In a place that you can continuously go back and review it later, but you do have to ask those questions. Uh, again, it goes back to questions. All right. Is this a vision that God gave me for this season or is this something that's for 10 years from now? Is this an idea that I have

just because it's a trending fad? Mhm. Is this something that's in line with my mission and ministry in the season and so it allows you to capture it and revisit it? I tell people, revisit it maybe once a quarter because there's good stuff on there. But we have to be very careful, Loren, not to have a practice of being a great starter and a terrible finisher. We have a whole bunch of half built bridges. We build the bridge, halfway stop, and then don't bring things to

completion. So I'm big on focusing on a particular project each quarter and I ensure I bring that project to completion at the end of the quarter before I take on another major project. Because I was the queen of half built bridges for the longest, but it wasn't serving me well, it just was making me frustrated. And so that's my new practice in order for me to capture those ideas but focus on completion of what's in season for me at this time.

>> Loren: Yeah, that's good. Let me ask this as a follow up then, because I'm thinking about a lot of the listeners of the podcast or pastors or church leaders. So I'm thinking, I imagine you have fairly similar experience yourself, mentoring and supporting ministry entrepreneurs. So someone comes to you and it's like, uh, oh, I have this idea for a ministry I want to do, which is oftentimes what a pastor

or church leader will experience. Someone who's part of their congregation coming up to m them, hey, we need to do this, that or the other. And you know, again, this is assuming that you're in good relationship with them and you feel like you have a good kind of tone or take on what is good for them and

what's going on in their life. How do you, how do you counsel people to say, hey, that's great, but this, you know, these four things, like the timing's not right, like, how do you, how do you have that conversation with folks? >> Rev. Jocelyn: I ask questions. I start off with questions because I think when people first are starting their ministry, they, they might, they have this burning desire, they want to do purpose driven work, but it's typically

not always clear. Unless you have a burning bush moment, you're still trying to figure things out. And so at the end of the day, I continue to ask when people are discerning, I ask them, okay, what cause burdens you? Who are the people who you feel called to serve? What gifts do you have? And I start going through these series of questions to help them

to refine their focus. And then I asked them, okay, what gifts do you already have or things do you already have going for you that you can lean into already? It's amazing to me how many people have gone through these certifications or these programs that they've done nothing with and they have it in their Back pocket, but they start working on something else before they actually explore what they already

have there. So I usually take people through this assessment process of a series of questions to get clarity and then say, okay, what can we focus on first as foundational? And I think the one thing I've also seen, Loren, is people can get so caught up on creating this full McDonald's menu. And let me explain that. You know how McDonald's has like, the fries and the salad and all these side things, and I'm like, what is your hamburger? Like

what. What is your main thing? Focus. Let's focus on establishing that first before we get all these side menu items. >> Loren: Yeah, that's good. Because, like, even thinking McDonald's has cut back their menu menu quite significantly in recent years just because they realized, like, they can only do, like, they weren't. They stopped making a good burger. Right. Because they were doing too much. >> Rev. Jocelyn: Mhm. Yep, yep, yep.

>> Loren: Well, this is good conversation. Uh, let's, let's take a break. But the book is again, Sister, Start your Ministry, A Guide to Start, Grow and sustain a Transformative Ministry. Again, it's titled Sister, but I imagine plenty of brothers or folks could really benefit from the book. So Reverend Jocelyn, uh, let's take a quick break and we'll come back with some closing questions.

All right, we're back with Reverend Jocelyn Jones. I always tell folks here these closing questions, you're welcome to take these as seriously or not as you'd like to. Uh, some folks get a little bit hung up on the Pope question. So feel, uh, free to answer as you want or not. If, uh, you're a pope for a day, if you had some kind of global or Christian authority, how might you want to see that authority or experience be for the day?

>> Rev. Jocelyn: Yeah, I sat with this question. I'm like, this question is super cool. Let me really think about this here, because I think if I was Pope for the day, I would mandate a day of silence with no technology, uh, and require people to be able to just be still and to be able to reflect, commune with their God

and really reconnect with self. I think people might be crawling and climbing the walls with a date like that because we become so inundated with technology and busyness and distractions. And again, as I said earlier, silence

could be so loud for people. But once you get past the initial shock and you kind of detox from the, from all the distractions and you have moments to find rest in self and be out with nature and really explore the things that God has given us that matter, how beautiful that is. And God has given me tremendous revelations when I actually sat in the silence. And that's something I would love to have people experience. >> Loren: Yeah, it goes back to what you said early in the

conversation about. I mean, you talked about being so busy that you couldn't hear. But I think so many of us, me included, we're so distracted by the phone or the constant inputs that it's hard to hear. So I, I've done a 24 hour silence retreat and I hated it, but I'm sure it was good for me. >> Rev. Jocelyn: It's tough, it's tough. But, yeah, uh, I think I'm trying to go on one next year for a couple days and I feel like I'll be going through my little detox, you

know, convulsions and everything. But, ah, once you get through day one, you can start embracing it, I believe. >> Loren: Yeah, that's good. Um, a theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life. >> Rev. Jocelyn: I was wrestling between Peter and Paul. I think both of them resonates with me because of their backstory. Their backstory is fascinating. Paul, obviously known as Saul,

formerly known as Saul, and his backstory. But then Peter, when he denied Jesus, when Peter, you know, swore up and down he never would. I mean, and Peter had that wild side. I mean, he was cutting off ears. He was like, go hard for Jesus, you know, but, but just seeing his, his transformation and his redemption after that mistake is beauty in that. And, and I think it just reminds me of our walk because we

are going to mess up sometimes. And for me, also a recovering perfectionist, there have been many times in which I got stuck in a shoulda, coulda, would haves. I, uh, tell people now, stop shoulding on yourself, you know, because it doesn't help but to see how God uses us in our mistakes and flaws and seeing how Peter and Paul, I would interview them and say, how did you, like, work through that? Like, what was your thoughts like, Peter, when, you know, you realize you denied Jesus three times

and you weeped and everything. How did you get through that? And, you know, so those are questions that I would have. >> Loren: Yeah, that's good, that's good. Um, what do you think history will remember from our current time and place? >> Rev. Jocelyn: That question I struggle with because right now I feel like we're extremely polarized. It's unfortunate that sometimes we can be stuck on an issue and, uh, firmly in our beliefs to the point where we can't disagree without cutting off

the person yeah. And that's scary because we, you know, in a cancel culture type environment, you know, people I don't disagree with, I don't agree, excuse me, with everything that anyone says. Like there's going to be disagreements, agreements. Right, right. But I

can still love you. I can still at least provide space for like conversation to at least understand your viewpoint and then vocalize mine is very challenging in this environment when we aren't open to hearing other people and really listening deeply and then still being able to love them in spite the fact that we disagree. That is something that I'm

hoping, uh, particularly. I, uh, know this is probably going to air well after the election, but you know, with the election being very polarizing, I just pray that we can get to a point where we can love each other in spite of our differences. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do you hope then for the future of Christianity? >> Rev. Jocelyn: I, uh, think it's around that same lines. I think that my hope for Christianity is that we move beyond religion to again relationship,

which I started this conversation talking about. I think that religion can jack people up when we get to be so holier than thou Pharisees caught up in certain elements of the tradition, which is honestly a beautiful thing. You know, there's certain elements of religion that I embrace and I love in terms of uh, spiritual practices and I love the church. I do think though that people can use religion to weaponize and cause harm.

I mhm. Was talking about this. Earlier this week I was hosting a Faith Leaders Against Domestic Violence summit and I was talking to faith leaders, uh, about the fact that the spiritual text could be used like scripture can be used as a weapon versus a source of healing for people. And taken outside of context, and this is, this is scary for someone who is a domestic violence survivor to see how this domestic violence happens to men and women and anybody it can happen to, but

primarily women. We see m that women are chastised and really encouraged to stay in dangerous marriages for the sake of religion and their relationship with God. When God does not want anyone to be abused. Right. And so I want the church to be trauma informed. A lot of my work is around helping the church to become sacred places of healing versus harm.

So that when you do find out that someone has experienced trauma, whether due to domestic violence, whether they're struggling with suicide, whether they're struggling with depression, whatever the case may be, we don't say, well you don't have enough faith. We don't say words like that. No, we, we show them love, we connect them with Resources. And we, we are a place that is safe for people who are coming to the church as a spiritual

hospital. That's my desire for the church and that's why I do the work that I do. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that. I'm. I'm reading, um, a book right now on kind of church abuse. And you know, in that kind of toxicity that can happen where folks are essentially protecting the church, they're protecting the religion, doing the wrong thing because they think they need to protect the religion. So I'm especially appreciative of what you said there.

Let's, uh, let's do this. Share if you would. Kind of. You obviously have the book here, which we've talked about, but you do a lot of other work, so feel free to share how folks can connect with you, what some of the other work you do and that in your connection. >> Rev. Jocelyn: Yes. So if someone wants to connect with me, they can visit my website, jocelynj

Jones dot com. That's kind of like the hub where you can learn more about the work that I do from like a faith standpoint, from a healing, trauma healing, church standpoint, my trauma healing ministry. You can connect through there. You can also find out about my sister Start yout Ministry Resources through that site. So that is a good place to start. I also do want to mention, Loren, that I have a free gift to offer your listeners.

Yeah, I created a ministry launch starter kit for individuals who are just trying to get, you know, the ministry off the ground. And so you can get that for free by visiting sisterstartyourministry.com. >> Loren: Okay, let's make sure, uh, if you have not send that to me, I'll make sure we include it in the show notes. >> Rev. Jocelyn: For sure. For sure. >> Loren: Well, this has been a great conversation. Really appreciate your

time. Always. Uh, leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website@future-christian.com and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But

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