¶ Intro / Opening
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the
tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Martha welcomes Jesse Zink to the show. The Reverend Dr. Jesse Zink is an Anglican priest and also serves as Canon Theologian in the Diocese of Montreal. Born in Vancouver and raised in the United States, Jesse has also served in ministry in South Africa and in England before
his arrival in Montreal. Since 2017, Jesse has been principal of Montreal Diocesan Theological College, or as it is widely known, Dio. Dio is an ecumenical theological college serving the Anglican and United Churches of Canada and is affiliated with McGill University. His latest book, published in the fall of 24, is Faithful Creative 15 Theses for Christians in a Crisis Shaped World.
He is the author of four other books about Christian theology, Christian mission, and Christianity in the non Western world, including Backpacking through the Anglican Communion and, uh, Christianity and Catastrophe in South Sudan, Civil War, Migration, and the Rise of Dinka Anglicanism. Please take a moment to rate and review this episode on whatever podcast platform you're listening on. And if you find the episode helpful, please share it with a ministry friend.
Our mission is to help you and your church walk faithfully into the future. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am your host for today's episode, Martha Tatarnick, and I'm so happy today to be joined by the Reverend Dr. Jesse Zink. Jesse, it's great to have you on the program today. >> Jesse Zink: Thanks for having me here. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, we have lots to talk about, um, and the bulk of our conversation is going
to be about your new book. But, uh, before we get into that, we just like to start with some opening questions. So maybe, Jesse, you can just share a little bit about your faith journey, what that looks like in the past and what it looks like now.
>> Jesse Zink: Yeah, uh, well, I'm a binational child, born in Canada, uh, raised in the United States, but, uh, a, uh, child of the church, um, born and baptized into the Anglican Church of Canada and raised in the Episcopal Church in the United States and now serving back in the Anglican Church of Canada. So, uh, the church has, uh, Long been important to me. And you know, I think in the baptismal service when the congregation, uh, pledges to support the child in their life
of faith. Uh, certainly I've been the beneficiary of lots of people in my life, um, my parents and my family. But, uh. Loads of other saints of the church who have raised me, uh, in the life of faith. Uh. But I would say that my faith really became my own, uh, in part, uh, through experiences in university, but also afterwards when I had the opportunity to live and work, uh. Um. In cultures, uh, outside of my own. Uh, first in Alaska, uh. Uh, among Alaska native people. And then in South Africa
working, uh, at a church ministry there. And so, uh. The intercultural part of my faith has always been really important. I find that engaging with Christians from other cultural backgrounds has always helped me deepen my own faith, broaden my horizons on what it means to be, uh, a Christian. And that's what, uh, has led me to my work today. Um, my work in theological education.
Um, and in this work of theological education, there's a significant intercultural component both in what we're offering our students, but also the backgrounds, uh, that our students come from. Uh, so I would say I was raised in, uh, the North American church, um, but have a real connection to and sense that the body of Christ transcends, uh, the barriers and boundaries, especially the cultural boundaries, uh, of our own time. Uh, and that offers this vision, uh, of what,
uh. Um. A reconciled body can look like to the rest of the world. >> Martha Tatarnic: That's beautifully said. And that, uh, intercultural influence, um. And formation definitely comes through in your book as well. So, uh. That's great. Um. Is there a spiritual practice that you are finding particularly meaningful now? >> Jesse Zink: Um. One of the things that, uh. Has been really meaningful to me is singing. Um. Uh. Uh. Uh, I love singing. Uh. I love congregational, uh. Or community
singing. Um. That doesn't mean I'm good at it. Um. I'm guided by words that, um. I've heard attributed to Ralph Waldo Emerson. I think the world would be very quiet if no birds sang. But those that sang best. Uh. And I love, uh. Gathering together a group of people, uh, with hymnals or other musical resources and just sitting around and singing
together. Uh. I didn't say. One of the other parts of my spiritual journey has been having a lot of deep friendships with people from other traditions outside of my own Anglican, uh, Episcopal tradition. Uh, and for me, I've had some deep relationships with people from the Anabaptist or Mennonite background where Communal singing is really important and I've learned so
much uh, from them. And so, uh, one of the things that I love doing uh, with my students, uh, in Montreal, uh, is precisely that at our retreat, at the opening part of the year, we have a time where we sit around in a circle, um, and uh, people share songs from their own cultural background. Uh, we sing uh, hymns together, uh, we talk about them, where they come from. I mean I find the very act of singing to be spiritually meaningful. Um, but I also find the lyrics and the words to be a form of
prayer as well. Um, and so anytime I can gather uh, people together, uh, with hymnals, uh, or music, a cappella or accompanied, um, I find that to be a pretty important informative spiritual practice for me, uh, and for the community. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, well that sure speaks to my heart. I mean I think for me that is the most intuitive and natural form, um, of prayer, but just kind of visceral
connection with God. Anecdotally, the best committee that I ever sat on was um, to put together a new hymnbook supplement for the Anglican Church. And like for months and months and months, our meetings were just gathering around a piano and singing through like all of the new hymns that were coming out. It was pretty magnificent. Day long meetings were never so fun.
All right, well we definitely wanted to um, make sure that we have the most amount of time in today's conversation for your book which uh, is just being released. It is called Faithful Creative 15 Theses for Christians in a Crisis Shaped World. And uh, it is an excellent book. It's a must read. Um, lots of props and encouragement, uh, for people to pick it up because you definitely won't regret it. It speaks right into our time and place and uh, and the place of the church in the world
right now. Um, there's a lot to get into. So I thought that it would maybe be helpful to start um, by getting into the book through the title and particularly that phrase crisis shaped world. Um, can you speak a little bit to the pressure points that you're particularly observing, experiencing in the world around us right now that lead to that definition of a crisis shaped world? >> Jesse Zink: Well, I think uh, the word
crisis is used a lot. Right. So, uh, climate crisis, housing, uh, crisis, migration crisis, opioid crisis, opioid crisis, affordability, mental health, uh, crisis, anxiety, loneliness, depression, etc. Right. Uh, and uh, I heard this word which is beginning to be used more often, the word polycrisis, uh, which is uh, as it sounds that we live at a time not just of One crisis, but of many and importantly that they're interrelated in such a way that it
makes it difficult to disentangle. So the climate crisis for instance, is related to uh, migration, right? Um, economic inequality is related to uh, housing, for instance. Uh, and there's lots of ways in which we can see those, uh, interweaving and entanglement. And I experienced it in my own life, right? It's not just an academic thing, but I experience the sense of ah, anxiety, concern, uh, about uh, the state of the world, um, as it relates to climate, for instance, as it relates to
economics. Um, I'm somebody for whom uh, the world, the globe is an important frame of reference in part because of where I've lived and where I've traveled. And so crisis shaped world is important to me. Um, and so in the book I focus particularly on climate, on economics, uh, and on migration, um, tracing the ways in which they're uh, interwoven with one another.
Uh, and I also though wanted to frame this and encourage us as Christians to think about and talk about, uh, the economic system in which we find ourselves, uh, and in which we live. And again partly that just emerges from my own sense of where we are. You know, every year at Christmas, I really struggle in December, um, because I just see how uh, economic values are taking over a Christian holy day. Not are taking over, have completely colonized and taken over a Christian holy day.
I mean, I don't like that as a Christian. But more than that, I see the kind of pastoral impact it has on people as so many people, Christian or not, are trying to respond to, uh, to live up to some uh, unattainable standard. And I think that's not really what the Birthday of the Prince of Peace, uh, is all about. Uh, and then there was the pandemic. So the COVID 19 pandemic was
an acute moment of crisis. And it just felt to me like it revealed so much, uh, that was uh, true about who we are, um, it revealed our interconnectedness, uh, our ability to rally together for a time, um, but also our inability to sustain that for a long period of time. Uh, our lack of trust in one another, uh, and in. In our institutions, as we saw during vaccination campaigns, for instance. Uh, and so, uh, I wanted to. To say something about all of that. Um, I'm the kind of person who
thinks through my fingers, like I think when I'm writing. And initially I sort of began to write about the church, you know, after the pandemic. But then I realized nobody was going to want to read a book with the word pandemic in the title because, um, I'm sick of the pandemic. Um, and if I was sick of it, nobody else was gonna buy that book. And also I thought that really the issues we were talking about are so much broader. The pandemic was one instance of a broader situation of poly crisis.
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. >> Jesse Zink: And that's what I wanted us to think about. So that's really what motivated, uh, or you could say that's the point of departure, uh, for this book.
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Okay. I just want to pick up on a couple of things there because I think that what the pandemic also revealed in a big way to me and I think to many of us, like when our regular patterns of, um, church and church gathering were shut down, um, like, why does it matter to keep going if the church doesn't speak to those major crisis points that the world is living
through? Right. Like, I felt like in a huge way that unless I was convinced that the church had something to say to those points of crisis, then I was done. Like, it just like, was not worth it. It didn't, like, matter enough if it didn't speak to that. So, like, that interrelated piece, um, is also
¶ The Book’s Big Ideas
very much connected to the life of the church. Right. Because each of those pressure points that you identify, um, have implications in the life of the church as well. >> Jesse Zink: And it's certainly the case that people in our churches are thinking about these things because they read the news and, and watch the headlines like we all do and live
in the world. And I've really found, actually in, you know, I've been talking about the material that's in this book for a little while now, uh, to different audiences, and I've really found just one of the responses people give me is this sort of relief, like, thank you for naming these things which have felt to me so significant, and yet I'm not sure how to, uh, approach them or even know that my faith might have something to say to that.
>> Martha Tatarnic: So, like, where do you see, um, these pressure points bubbling up in a specific church way? Like, what are the conversations that you're hearing in the life of the church, uh, that also get interwoven with these planetary crises?
>> Jesse Zink: Right. Well, because, uh, the other place in which we use the word crisis, uh, it's not nearly on the same scale as climate crisis, for instance, but the crisis of the church, uh, and for those of us, uh, like you and me, who serve in mainline Protestant backgrounds in the United States or Canada, Uh, we can certainly narrate stories of church decline in terms of attendance, in terms of property ownership. Uh, we don't need to rehearse this.
The statistics here, they're different for, uh, every denomination, uh, anyway. Um. Uh, but I think the sense that I've had coming out of the pandemic, um, what. What really crystallized it, perhaps we were there already, but what really crystallized it is, you know, as I said, I've been in the church my, My entire life, and my entire life people have been saying, oh, the church is in decline. There's going to come some moment when we're really going to have to make some big decisions,
decisions about things. And I think that moment is here. >> Martha Tatarnic: Um, uh, or maybe like 10 years ago. >> Jesse Zink: Exactly. But. But maybe we're finally realizing it. Right? Uh, we're, um. That things can't keep going the way they've always been going. Um, and, uh. So we need to talk about that. And I think the other thing, though, I wanted to say about crisis in the church is a sense that.
And I say this, um, with a lot of love, um, for the church and as a child of the church and a servant of the church, that sometimes I didn't always get the sense in the church we were having the conversations we needed to be having, uh, right now, that. That we weren't quite reckoning with the nature of the situation, uh, as it is, um, and that we weren't, um.
Uh. Well, that the church sometimes had become so wrapped up, uh, in itself, um, but also so wrapped up in the structures and the powers of this world, um, that it was unable to see the situation, uh, in which it found itself. And so I, uh, really wanted to say, and speak to Christians and say, look, let's think about this broader context, um, and then let's talk about how we respond to it with the good news of Jesus Christ.
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that, um, that word that you used a minute ago, relief, um, is very much a feeling that I had very, ah, strongly reading your book and that I've had in our conversations over the years because we kind of travel in the same Anglican Canadian circles and, uh, have talked about some of this stuff over the years. But, um, that, like, sense of relief, to name it, like,
this is what's actually going on. And to me that is really connected to hope, like, being honest about what is going on, um, to me is not just like a big exhale. It's also like the start of hope. And you frame that right from the beginning of this book. You say that uh, this book is born from a great sense of possibility and expectation about what Christians can offer to a hurting and changing world. So I just wondered if you wanted to speak for a moment about that
Hope. It's in your title and it's like right in the introduction of the book. >> Jesse Zink: So the source of hope, what makes me hopeful, uh, ultimately is the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the knowledge that Christ will come again. I mean that, that is the point of departure. That's gospel, uh, good news. Um, obviously that takes some unpacking which is part of what I'm uh, uh, writing about. But you know, ah, at its core hope um, is a virtue that puts us on a
timeline of God's action. We uh, look back to what God has done in the past, we look around us to what God is doing in the present and we look to the future as well, uh, knowing that God, uh, will act in the future, uh, and that makes us hopeful. Uh, now I want to be clear what Hope is not right. Hope is not optimism. Uh, hope is not the sense that we just need to sit back and let God
sort everything out. Hope, uh, I think I use the phrase hope, uh, is a kind of, uh, no options left hanging on by your fingernails kind, uh, of virtue. Uh, you wouldn't choose hope, uh, if you had a choice about it. Um, and, and I've sometimes said somewhat in jest, but I think perhaps it's true that um, the mood in this book that I was going for at times was, was bleakly hopeful, um, hopefully more hopeful than bleak. Um, but, uh, but, but I think that's, that's what it's about.
And in how does God act? God uh, acts for abundance of life, uh, for fullness of life, for wholeness of life. Uh, in Scripture that's described variously as the kingdom or the reign of God, as shalom, as righteousness, um, as peace, um, and that's good news because it's good, um, and it's new. We don't find that kind of life uh, anywhere
else. Uh, and so the hopeful piece is to know that my role, uh, our role as Christians in this time and place is simply uh, what it has been for Christians across history, which is to proclaim the gospel afresh in this generation, um, to say, okay, given this context, a context of a crisis shaped world, uh, in a church that's perhaps in a crisis of its own, what does the good news of Jesus Christ have to say, uh, to this context, uh, and I'm not persuaded by Stories
of church decline. Um, I don't think the church is going to die, um, partly because of the great promise of Jesus that the gates of hell will not prevail against it. Um, but I do think the church is going through a pretty big period of change and transition. Um, and that feels very wrenching and difficult and confusing for those of us who are in the middle of it. But honestly it also feels immensely energizing and exciting.
Um, because I know that, that God is working in our midst and God will continue to work, uh, and
¶ The Challenges of Church Leadership
leading us always towards this quality of life of um, communal life, uh, in relationship with one another, in relationship with Christ and in relationship with uh, the world around us that we can't find anywhere else. And so I can't think of anything else I'd rather do than tell people about that, um, and try to uh, enact it and live it, uh, and proclaim it. So that's hope right there.
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yep, that's hope. And you know, I think the other part that's like really integral to that hope is like the kingdom of God is actually not something that we're called to make happen or to build or to um. Like we can, we can get on the train, we can, um, we can get better at um, bearing witness to it, we can get. Sharpen our language and our eyesight for being able to perceive it. But it's actually like not up to us to make it happen.
>> Jesse Zink: Uh, no, no it's not. Uh, but I think what you say is, is uh, that. That doesn't excuse us from doing nothing. >> Martha Tatarnic: Um, no, no. >> Jesse Zink: What it leads to, what knowledge of the kingdom leads to is it leads us to live now like things will one day be. Um, you know, that, that we're trying to give the foretaste of it, uh, in our common life. And we'll fail, um, because, because we're, we're human beings.
But from time to time, uh, we'll get glimpses of it. And as you say, uh, part of it is to, to see that, to point it out to other people and say, this is what this looks like. Mhm. This is what we're trying to offer to other people. >> Martha Tatarnic: Mm, mhm. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, we don't, we're not in charge of making God show up like God is on it. Um, so you have 15 theses. Um, each one is its own chapter. It's a great organizing principle for the book.
I um, think that it involves quite a lot of discipline to um, sort out those 15 theses. Because as you say they're all so interconnected. And so there's a lot of, um, chapters referring back to previous chapters and that kind of thing. But how did you arrive at those particular 15. >> Jesse Zink: Yeah. Well, let me just say a word first about Thesis as a structuring device. Um, many of your listeners will probably know that the thesis has a somewhat august, uh, role in Christian history.
Notably, um, Martin luther in his 95. Um, so I. I'm not necessarily trying to associate myself with that. But I think what Luther recognized is that a, ah, declarative statement, which is all that a thesis is a declarative statement, is a great way, um, to invite discussion, um, to invite response. And, uh. And so that's really what I'm interested in. Uh, you know, this book is a contribution to his discussion, uh, and an
invitation, uh, for a response. And the reason that I chose Thesis also is that, uh, you know, probably like you, I go to a lot of church meetings. And I was kind of getting tired of just the amount of rhetorical questions that I heard there. Like, well, what would it be like if. Or imagine if we could do this? Um, and I just wanted to say that there have been several meetings I sat in where I thought, okay, let's try to answer that question. Let's not just ask it
now. Look, I know how important it is to ask good questions. Um, uh, but at some point I just want to try to answer them. And, uh, I will have failed. Um, if you read this book and you find yourself agreeing with all 15. Um. Because as I say, this is an invitation for conversation. And maybe in 10 years I'll come back and be like, oh, I don't. Don't agree with that one anymore. Um, and so I found that the thesis
was, uh. Uh. I wanted to write a book in a way that was really accessible, um, for people in congregations, uh, for clergy of all educational backgrounds. And that the thesis was a really helpful structuring device that allowed me to talk about a broad range of issues. As you say, interconnected, but still a broad range. Even though some of these theses could be whole books in themselves. Um, and, uh, maybe they one day will be. Um. As for how I got to 15, um. Well, I originally wrote about 19
or 20. Um, some of them aren't ready for prime time. Uh, some of them just didn't really fit. Um, and then I did try to find a kind of narrative arc. Beginning, um, with the idea of polycrisis and diagnosing where we are. And then thinking about this idea of resistance to the powers of this world, um, and then, uh, ending with a sense of renewed, ah, church. There's lots of things I didn't write about. You know, I work
in theological education. But there's almost nothing in this book about ministry, um, uh, or the ministry of the church as such. Um, there'd be more I'd want to say about the connection of the church and what renewal of the church looks like. But at some point you hit word count limits. And 15 was a nice number. That was that. So maybe there'll be a volume two, or maybe it'll turn into something else. We'll see. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, definitely. Um, it is
a conversation starter. And, uh, a variety of conversation starters. I wanted to drill down into chapter three. I suspect that anybody reading your book might find that one of the chapters becomes kind of the lens through which all of the other chapters you end up reading. And for me, that was chapter three, um, which is called Christian Formation is, uh, not Failing, it's being Defeated. Um. I might not have the exact wording of that.
Right. Um. Yeah, Christian Formation is not failing, it's being defeated. Um, so when I was reading this, uh, it just really spoke immediately to the three really unhelpful stances that I see Christian leaders, um, getting themselves into. Uh, more than anything else. Um, I think that a lot of Christian leaders can feel extremely guilty and, uh, inadequate, uh, to the job of trying to save the church, which, you know, I think we easily sort of get ourselves into thinking that that's our
¶ Rethinking Christian Leadership
job. Um, I think on the flip side of that, there can be a lot of false bravado about, um, how well things are going and, um. And how confident we are in having the right answers and the right formula sort of nailed, uh, down. Um, which tends to ignore, uh, just sort of the overall market, um, economics that we're buying into when we think that it's sort of about succeeding, uh, for the
greatest market share. Um, and then I think kind of in the middle of that bravado and that inadequacy, there can just be a lot of learned helplessness in, um, leadership ranks. Because you can feel so disempowered in the face of, like, these massive forces that seem to be working against church, um, success, for lack of a better word. Um, so I found the talk in this chapter about defeat to be really helpful, very honest,
and then ultimately hopeful. So can you just talk about defeat, um, of Christian Formation? >> Jesse Zink: Um, well, um, first of all, I'm glad to know this was like a chapter that unlocked things for you. Um, because in some ways it was for me as well. Some of these theses, you know, you're seeing about the 48th draft, by the time it finally works its way in the print, this one, it's about the fourth or fifth draft. Like, it just sort of. It just sort of like, came
out of my fingers and I was like, ah, I think. I think now I understand what I'm trying to say. Um, so what do I mean by the distinction between failure and defeat? I mean, one way to think about this is in terms of sports teams. If you're a fan of a sports team, right? There's a difference when you're a sports fan of, uh, between rooting for a team or when your favorite team, you know, right from the beginning of the year, it's clear they're not going to do very well, right? They fight
among each other in the locker room. They don't practice very well. It's like a rebuilding year or something. The owners say, uh, and everybody's concerned about their next contract, not about executing their plays on the field. Right? That's a team that's failed. A team that's been defeated, though, you know, uh, uh, I've certainly rooted for teams in the
past that have played well all season. You know, they practice well together, they execute their plays, uh, and then they lose on a last second play to a team that just happens to be stronger or better in that moment, and that's defeat. Um, I would much rather be the fan of the second, uh, of the team defeated than the team that fails. And I think you're right. The way you began by diagnosing the three ways in which we reacted in church, um, I really experience all of those at various
points. Um, but certainly I felt failure in my ministry, right? Like, I felt like a failure. And I know how debilitating that feeling can be. Right? It just makes you want to give up. Uh, it makes you want to say, well, we tried, but we failed. And, and what I want to say about that is that that diagnosis puts all of the attention on ourselves, right? It's. It's an individually oriented one, or it's a communally oriented one.
Um, but what I'm saying, and as you say, this is the third chapter, so it comes at the end of the first section of the book where I'm trying to think, uh, apocalyptically, uh, thinking about, uh, unveiling the structures and the powers that exist in this world that work against Christian witness. Right? We as Christians are not the only people trying to form people in this world, uh, there are lots of other powers
that are doing that as well. And I speak, uh, in the previous chapter specifically about, uh, economic powers and the way that, uh, our economic values are forming, uh, who we are, uh, as people. So, uh, if I just go around thinking myself a failure because my program didn't work out, then I'm thinking all about myself. And I'm not thinking about the structures in which I find myself. But if I begin by saying, look, I. Or we as Christians are not the only people who are trying to form
people in this world. There are other powers out there as well. If I can see those powers, uh, those structures, those principalities, uh, then I might say, you know what? It's not that I'm failing, that I've done something wrong. It's that I'm being defeated by something that is stronger than me, uh, stronger than us. Uh, and that if I start talking about defeat, um, then it's not quite as debilitating a feeling. Um, to be defeated is not to be
defeatist. Um, and. And that's, I think, a really important place in terms of opening up, uh, the rest of the book. And I think there's a theological lens on this one as well, which is that when Jesus was hanging on the cross, um, a lot of his followers thought that he had sailed, right? But he hadn't. He'd just been defeated. Uh, you know, he'd spoken, uh, with confidence. He'd, you know, gone around. He'd. He'd done. And been precisely who he had been sent to earth, uh, to
be. And for a time, uh, the other powers of this world, which he was deeply aware of, the other powers of the world were stronger than him. And of course, the great good news is that Good Friday is not the end of the story, right? That that defeat on the cross, uh, is not all there is. And so if we can reframe our conversation away from ourselves and our failures or successes, as you say, that
bravado around it. But then just say, well, this community trying to form people, what is the broader context in which we find ourselves? And how might that context be working towards and helping us form people in the way of life, of the kingdom of God? Or more likely, how might that way of life be working against, uh, posing obstacles to our efforts to form people, uh, into the way of life, of the reign of God? Uh, and we might
be defeated. We probably will be defeated, given the strength of the powers of this world. But that doesn't mean that we need to be miserable. Uh, Feel like we're miserable failures. What it means is that simply in that moment of defeat, God, uh, is waiting for us and working, uh, with and for and among us, uh, to bring new life and new victory, uh, out of those moments of defeat, uh, in precisely the same way that God has always done.
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think that um, that connection and um, the framing of Jesus as being defeated on the cross, um, I have just found myself going back to that time and time again. Um, and it goes back to kind of where you started around like what is the place of hope out of which you write this book? And
¶ Hope and the Future of the Church
that's it. Right? Um, sorry, go ahead. >> Jesse Zink: Well, I just think, you know, if we think that Good Friday is not the end of the story, we don't just think that. We believe it and know it to be true. Um, when I am defeated, my response is not necessarily to try harder and work harder to believe that if I can just find the right thing, I will do it.
Um, the response is to be more aware of our surroundings, um, more aware of the society in which we live and how it's structured in ways that are working for or against, uh, what we're trying to do, uh, and then it is being faithful, um, to that deposit of faith, to that good news and seeking to uh, uh, proclaim it, um, and enact it and embody it in the life that we share together in the Christian community.
>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. Yeah. Um, and that apocalyptic lens, um, runs as a very strong thread throughout the book as well. Um, that clarity around um, what is being revealed and then I think the clarity about um, what our response can be, um, when we are honing in on what is actually happening.
>> Jesse Zink: And I think I want to be clear because especially in the sort of Anglican and Episcopal circles or mainline Protestant circles that you and I spend time in, uh, Martha, um, the word apocalyptic might not be one that naturally comes to people's lips. Um, and I want to be clear that all I'm saying when I use apocalyptic language is simply to, as the word suggests, to unveil, to reveal, um, the powers of this world, um, and to be aware about how
they're working against the kingdom of God. And that the response of apocalyptically minded Christians, um, is not revolution, um, it's not quietism, it's not giving up all hope, uh, it's resistance. It's about living, uh, in our common life, a way of life that resists the dehumanizing powers of this world and offers a, ah, fullness and abundance of life, uh, in our common life. That we can't find, ah, elsewhere.
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, absolutely. And that I think really brings me to my next question, um, which is around that alternative that I think that you set up so beautifully throughout the book. Um, that you know, when we are very clear about those dehumanizing powers of this world, the principalities and powers that do not bring life, that are working against um, kingdom values, then we can also um, I think lean into what we offer in contrast to
um, to that alternative. So I hear, I hear throughout the book, um, ah, the phrase like um, to be in this world but not of it kept coming to mind because what you seem to be inviting is um, a really deep, ah, engagement and deep conversation with the. What is actually happening in the world around us. Um, but then that stance of resistance, that alternative, um, to be our offering, um, it's not always
easy to do that. It's not always easy to um, either be clear about the waters that we're swimming in or to figure out how to step outside of those waters that we're swimming in, um, to claim something else. And so I thought maybe we could just um, get a little concrete here with um, our listeners who are, you know, trying to provide, to lead faithful Christian communities. Um, like what are some of the ways that the church is just by its nature
already doing that alternative. Like, so we're not kind of adding um, onto the job description or like more things that we should be doing as churches and as Christian leaders, but we can instead like kind of embrace what the church is by nature as that alternative.
>> Jesse Zink: Yeah, I think this is uh. This. This is really significant because uh, you know, as you and I know and as we've discussed, sometimes part of our response, our default as Christians is to think, oh, we got to start something new. >> Martha Tatarnic: I know. >> Jesse Zink: Right. We need to launch a new program here. And there's. There's nothing wrong with, with. With new programs necessarily, although it does tend to put the focus on us. Um, and I'd like
to put the focus on God, I guess. Uh, but I do think, uh, you know, ultimately what we are doing in this, you know, apocalyptically inclined perspective that I'm trying to put forward here is we are trying to craft a model of life in our Christian communities that resists the powers, uh, of this world. Uh, and that ultimately, uh, our Christian practices give us lots of guidance on that already.
So I end the book, uh, perhaps not surprisingly for somebody who's Anglican, um, with the Eucharist, with Communion, um, and thinking about how the Eucharist already provides us Some guidance for what it means to live, uh, a resistant life. Uh, and, you know, as I say, I'm an Anglican. The sacramentalism of, uh, Anglicanism has always been very appealing to me. Uh, you know, let's look at
what we're doing. So, you know, in the Anglican services that I attend, there's a moment where we pass the peace with one another. Right. Um, well, if we are sort of going around shaking hands or these days waving at one another, but our community is riven by some sort of
¶ Hope and the Future of the Church
conflict, as is true in some of our communities, then perhaps we should think about that. What do we think about that disjuncture between what we're saying about ourselves, liturgically reconciled people, and how we're actually living our lives? Um, if we're confessing our sins as we do, uh, when we celebrate the Eucharist, but, uh, we're still participating in systemic, uh, structures of oppression and sin in this world, then, uh, let's
pause on that for a while. Let's ask ourselves what confession, um, and repentance and amendment of life would look like not just for the individual sins that may come to mind when we are, um, bidden to confess our sins. But let's also think about what confession and repentance and amendment of life might look like, um, in terms of our participation
in the structures of this world. Because I do want to be clear that, you know, although I may be apocalyptically inclined, uh, in identifying powers, I'm quite clear that I participate in all of those. And our churches do as well. Um, so what does repentance look like? Ah, there, you know, I have a. I have a high view of the. Of the
Eucharist. Um, uh, which means that I do see that when the community of followers of Jesus gathers together with bread and wine around the table, um, this is a moment of the. In breaking of the kingdom of God, um, in the way that it shows us our right relationship with one another, our right relationship with God, our right relationship with. With the natural world and the bread and wine that we bring forward and place on the table. Um, this is what. This is what, uh, it's all about. Um,
and. And that part of our job in ministry is simply to point out when we're seeing that happening already. So that when we see reconciliation happen, uh, when we see, uh, you know, diverse communities created here, here in Canada, of course our population is growing very rapidly with immigrants from all over the world. And when I see the intercultural communities that are being formed in some of our churches, I think this is exactly what God is. Is. Is calling us to be.
Um, let's lift this up. Let's hold this up and say, uh, this. This is the quality of life that we're trying to offer, uh, to other people. Um, and so I just find in what we are already doing and what Christians have been bidden to do for 2,000 years, uh, so much resource, uh, for ministry. Uh, you know, so the Eucharist is just one example. Uh, there's
several other I could give. Uh, but all of it oriented around having, uh, the Christian community, uh, be this community that offers the foretaste of the wholeness of life, um, that God is working to bring about. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. I was. When I was reading that last chapter about the Eucharist, I was thinking about the practice of ablutions
that, um, we. I mean, not all Christian traditions do that, but certainly in the Anglican Church, there's this very careful process of how the, the leftover bread and wine needs to be consumed and treated with care or returned to the earth or, um, you know, whatever. Whatever it is. And uh, there can be like, very detailed, uh, cleaning practices and that kind of thing. And I, I feel like that kind of, uh, lens, like, is something that I try to bring to my own.
Um, food consumption patterns, you know, in our household, how we treat leftovers, how we, um, how we shop, how we make sure that things aren't going to waste, how we compost, you know, all of those. Those processes. So I love that. That idea of, um, of the Christian community, like forming us to see the world differently and to engage differently with the world.
Um, not to kind of add to people's to do lists, but are there like one or two examples that you would point to of, um, kind of new projects or new programs, uh, that you have seen churches embrace that. That look like that kind of faithful, creative, hopeful church. >> Jesse Zink: Well, I'm always wary of answering a question like this for reasons you've already, uh, indicated.
Um, you know, ultimately I think I want to answer that question by saying, uh, what are some of the characteristics of a church that's living like this? And one of the words I didn't use in the title of the book, um, but I explore, um, in one of the chapters is the word confidence, uh, a word that literally means to live with faith. Uh, and I tell this story about, uh. You know, I'm a tall person. I used to work at a summer camp for a long time as a teenager and in my early 20s.
And I used to walk around kind of hunched over as a lot of tall teenagers going through puberty do. And my summer camp director was actually taller than me. Um, he's a wonderful man. Um, this is a Christian summer camp. And one day he came over to me and he said, jesse, you're exactly as tall as God made you to be. So roll your shoulders back, stand up tall, and be who God has made you to be. And I've never forgotten that. And I probably still slouch from time to time.
But, uh, I try to remember that. And that's the kind of living I want to call Christians to is that confident Christian living. Which isn't an overconfidence. It's not ego driven, arrogant. >> Martha Tatarnic: Um, it's not arrogant. >> Jesse Zink: It's not arrogant. But it's simply saying, this is who God has created us to be. Uh, you know, in my tradition, I would describe that as a eucharistic community. Uh, so let's roll our shoulders back and be who God is calling us to be.
Uh, we might not be the same huge congregation, we might not have our gracious and lovely buildings, uh, in the same way, but we're still a, uh, people committed to following the way of Jesus in the world, welcoming, uh, strangers, uh, not being afraid to take risks, not being afraid to make mistakes. M. Knowing that the future will be different from the present, but still being faithful, uh, to the same God.
Uh, I mean, you did ask me for examples. I'll just give one example because I was just attending this recently, uh, the church that I attend. And I'll just say I had nothing to do with this besides, uh, showing up, um, for the last several months, uh, once a month has been doing, uh, intergenerational, uh, communion preparation and reflection. Morning on Saturday morning. And it begins with intergenerational
making, uh, of bread. So, um, making a different kind of bread every time and thinking about where the food comes from and how we make it. Uh, and then we actually sit together and we talk about some aspect of Eucharist, uh, uh, again, in as intergenerational a fashion as we can manage. And then we eat together. So we eat the bread and we eat some other
foods that Jesus might have had. And in terms of the way it is drawing together people from diverse backgrounds, bringing, um, to the surface all kinds of different views, uh, on the Eucharist, actually engaging us in activity, building, uh, uh, this community, forming this community, uh, in a eucharistic fashion, uh, has just been wonderful to see. Uh, and it does take some work, uh, to prepare that, uh, as I say, I have nothing to do with it, uh, besides eating the bread.
Uh, but it's been wonderful to see the formation effects that, that is. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's a beautiful example and it really ties together a lot of the themes that keep coming up in the, in the book. Um, okay, let's, let's go with a final question before we have our wrap up. Um, questions. You work in a theological college, you form Christian leaders.
Um, if you could sort of say like what you would love for a Christian leader to take away from your book to hear and what you're trying to say, what, what would that be like? What do you most want new Christian leaders or continuing Christian leaders to take away here? >> Jesse Zink: It's not about you. Uh, you're not the Messiah. Uh, I'm not going to save the church and neither are you. Uh, there already has been a Messiah, uh, and so uh, don't think it's all about
you. Don't burn yourself out, uh, either implicitly or explicitly making yourself the center of the story. Uh, instead, um, think about what a wonderful message, uh, that we have to proclaim, ah, to enact, to embody, uh, in this time, uh, and, and that that message is ultimately a message that's not about information. I mean it is about information, but it's a message that leads to a quality of life, um, and it is a quality
of life. The um, words I use are fullness, a wholeness of life, an abundance of life that we can't find uh, anywhere else. And yes it's true, um, we uh, need all of our resources of creativity uh, to proclaim and enact that message today because we live at a different time, um, but we're no different from Christians at any other point in the last
2,000 years. Um, so what that means is we need leaders who are uh, willing to take risks, uh, as I've said, um, uh, who are willing to speak and to act and to paint a vision of what God is doing in the world and what God will be doing in the world, um, to say that there is a future, um, um, and we are headed towards that, uh, even though in our crisis shaped world it doesn't always feel like that, uh, that we exist on a timeline of God's action in the world
and we are one little piece of it, um, but what a privilege it is, uh, to be that one little piece of it. And so let's be attentive to our context, uh, be attentive to the ways in which it is pointing us away from that kingdom of God. And then let's, as I say, take all of our resources of creativity, of uh, faith, uh, of hope, um, and dream and imagine, uh, the kind of community, uh, uh, that we can be, that, that embodies uh, that way of life.
And we know, uh, if we've studied Christian history that just what that looks like will be different in different contexts and it will be different than it's been in the past, uh, because the church has always been changing, uh, but that doesn't mean, uh, that God isn't faithful because God is faithful, uh, and God continues to sustain us, uh, in this ministry. God, uh, is the center of the story, uh, and what a wonderful story that is for us to be a part of.
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, beautifully said. Um, that word attentive is a theme word in the book and it's a really rich word. Um, and I, I do think that it is actually enormously, uh, empowering and energizing to uh, dispel the, the main character energy that we can sometimes put on ourselves when we're in the life of the church. Right. Like, yeah, we're not, we're not in charge of saving the church. We're not the Messiah. And um, that is very empowering to know that. Um, so, yeah, it's a
fantastic book. Um, I am so appreciative of the conversations, um, that you and I have been part of in the Anglican Church, um, how the book really kind of speaks, I think, to uh, what we're hearing from leaders and congregations across Canada, uh, across North America, um, how we're feeling, how we're responding. Um, this book is really a must read for all of us. >> Jesse Zink: Um, from your lips to the listeners ears, I hope. Thank you. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, no, um, it's
really good. Very using that word attentive again. Very attentive to what is happening and how people are feeling. And you will walk away from reading this book with a sense of hope and uh, empowerment. So thank you, Jesse. >> Jesse Zink: Thank you. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll come back for uh, some rapid fire closing questions. Welcome back to the Future Christian Podcast.
We are going into our closing questions with Jesse Zink and uh, Jesse, if you were pope for a day, what would that day look like? What would be on your agenda? >> Jesse Zink: I'd, uh, probably be torn between asking, uh, for a private tour of the Vatican museums or writing the encyclical that allows women to be ordained. I hope I would have the fortitude to uh, resist the temptation and write that encyclical and not go to the museum all day.
>> Martha Tatarnic: I don't know. Maybe you could split your time between the two. Okay. What theologian or historical Christian figure would you want to meet or bring back to life, have supper with? >> Jesse Zink: Um, well, I'll just take Jesus, uh, off the table. Ah. Uh, you know, and I'm a very historically inclined person, uh, as this book will make clear. So there's. There's no shortage of people.
I'd love to pick, uh, their brains. But I think in the context of this conversation, in this book, uh, I would pick two. I, uh, grew up at a church called St. John's Episcopal Church in Northampton, Massachusetts. Uh, and, uh, there were two people who were associated with that church long before I ever arrived in the early 20th century. The, uh, first was a man named William Stringfellow, who, as a child, grew up, uh, at that
church, uh, as I did. Uh, he went on to be a lawyer, uh, and a member of the Episcopal Church and a theologian who wrote a number of really wonderful books. Uh, and he's also a very apocalyptically inclined, uh, theologian. And I think I'm influenced a lot, uh, by him. He's also a very sacramentally oriented theologian, uh, so I would love to
talk to him. The other person, uh, who used to be the priest or the rector of that church in Northampton was a man named Stephen Bain, who, uh, went on to be a bishop in the Episcopal Church and then went on to be, uh, in the 1960s, a really critical figure, uh, in the global, uh, Anglican Communion. Um, and Bain wrote a lot as well, and he had a lot to say about how God is still acting in the world, um, but how the church needs
to change. And. And so, although I don't quote either of them directly in this book, I feel that both of them are big influences on me. And I would love for the three of us to have dinner sometime and talk about our common connection, uh, to the same church and hear what they have to say about how, uh, our world is today. >> Martha Tatarnic: You know, I think that, uh, this. That is always my favorite question in these
interviews that I get to have. And nobody has ever given those particular answers before, so that's delightful. >> Jesse Zink: I love that little Billy Stringfellow as he was when he was growing up in Northampton. Um, I would love to have been fly on the wall for some of his Sunday school classes. >> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, that's great. Just a fantastic answer. What will history remember from our current time and place? Place?
>> Jesse Zink: Um, well, maybe this isn't a very positive answer, but I sometimes think the idolatry of economics, uh, of money, of a, uh, deeply constrained notion of value that thinks the only thing that matters is the price of an object. I, um, think the way in which that is damaging us, uh, and leading us, uh, to, among so much else, a deeply disordered relationship with God's creation. Um, I hope we can transcend that, uh, and so we can look back on it as something in the past.
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's right. What are your hopes for the future of Christianity that might be connected to your previous answer? >> Jesse Zink: Well, I would just, uh, go back to the word confidence that I used earlier. Um, let's roll our shoulders back, stand, uh, up tall and not with arrogance, uh, but with boldness, uh, and humility. Uh, let's be the confident, uh, Christians God has called us to be in the way that we live our lives together in community.
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, where can people find more about you, Jesse? >> Jesse Zink: Uh, I do have a website, uh, JesseZink.com that I try to keep up to date with at least information about the books that I've written. Uh, I'm not so good about, uh, other things. I am fortunate that I have a name that's somewhat unusual. Um, so if you Google
Jesse Zinc, uh, you'll be able to find it. Uh, I must say I'm so confused by the present state of, the present fractured state of social media these days that I really struggle to stay on top of where things are happening. And usually I just throw up my hands and walk away from it all. But, um, uh, you can find me on Facebook, you, uh, can find me on the website. You, uh, can just google my name and you'll
find my email address at work and just drop me a line. I love having conversations, uh, with people, email, uh, or otherwise. And happy, uh, to hear from you, uh, if and when you have a chance to read this book about what you thought. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, thank you so much for your time today, Jesse. Thank you for, uh, the thought and the attentiveness that went into writing it. And um, I think that this is going to be a really important offering to the church.
>> Jesse Zink: Well, thank you and. >> Martha Tatarnic: Sorry, go ahead. >> Jesse Zink: Well, thank you and thank you for all the work that you and Loren do on this podcast. >> Martha Tatarnic: Thank you. Well, we always end with a word of peace, so may God's peace be with you, Jesse, and also with you. >> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website@future-christian.com and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.