Healthy Calling: Arianna Molloy on Burnout, Purpose, and Redefining Work

>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Ariana Malloy: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Ariana

Malloy to the podcast. Ariana is Associate professor of Organizational Communication at, uh, Biola University. Her research focuses on meaningful work, work as a calling, and the connection between humility and burnout in the workplace. She is an award winning scholar and educator who has published in the International Journal of Business Communication, Communication Studies and Christianity Today. Ariana is also a consultant for organizations, business professionals

and ministries. Ariana and her husband Alan, have own son and enjoy running half marathons, traveling the world and drinking good coffee. A reminder, before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro uh.com with comments, questions or ideas for

future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern the future of the church. >> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am Loren Richmond Jr. And today I am pleased to be joined today by Dr. Ariana Malloy. Hello and thanks for being here. >> Ariana Malloy: Hello. So glad to be here. >> Loren: Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation.

Let's begin with this. Share just a little bit about your faith background, what that looked like in the past for you, what that looks like today. >> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, uh, I have a very kind of boring story. In some ways, I've loved Jesus since I can remember. I grew up in a home where two parents really modeled what love looked like, what Christ's love looked like in an everyday way. And I

know that that is sometimes very rare. And they didn't come from those kinds of homes, so they made an intentional choice to do some things differently. But I have loved Jesus since I can remember. Um, I think that there have probably been times in my life where I would have made different choices in hindsight. But generally speaking, I have known him as my savior and my shepherd, my best friend.

Um, in college I read a couple of books and I was really Involved in serving in the junior high, in my church and the college ministry in college, I felt like my prayer life kind of exploded. I've always loved to pray, but in that particular season I really felt invited into a deeper level of intimacy with the Lord in that regard. So that is, that's my story. >> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Has prayer remained a central

kind of spiritual practice, spiritual discipline for you? Are there any others that you've really, uh, grown fond of perhaps? >> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, I think for me, because, because God is, is a person, because I have relationship with Him. To me prayer is, is talking with him, it's coming to him and engaging with Him. And so, um, it's not, it's not meant, um, to be ritualistic in my heart and mind. Although certain rituals do help sometimes.

So, um, you know, one of my favorite books is Sacred Pathways. And in that book it talks about the seven different. I think it's seven, actually it might be nine. Nine different ways that people can feel close to God. Because we're all different. You know, it's similar to any kind of relationship. We all have different, essentially love languages and experiences. And the same is

true in our relationship with God. And so my husband and I read that, uh, about three years into our marriage and it was really illuminating to, to discern what lights us up inside each of us. And for me it is kind of a traditional sense of like. I love reading scripture in the morning when I have the time. I have a kid now, so it's a little bit harder. But um, I love just diving into scripture. I love reading books that sort of illuminate things about scripture. I love praying.

For me, I feel the most at home with the Lord when I'm in nature. So finding my, my space in that is really important. For the last, I don't know, five years, I've gone for a walk by the beach. We live close enough to the beach on Friday mornings. Every Friday I go for a 30 minute walk by the beach and just quiet my heart and reorient. And for me, when I see nature, I just feel closer to the Lord. Whereas my husband, he's more of someone who loves to have

intellectual conversations. I love those too, but they don't make me necessarily feel closer to God or he loves to serve again. I love to serve, but it doesn't necessarily make me feel closer to God. So I think, um, yeah, figuring out. And again, I think that can also change depending on the seasons of our lives. >> Loren: Mhm. Okay, we gotta ask, it's Friday then. Did you get Your walk in. >> Ariana Malloy: I'm going after this actually.

>> Loren: Okay, good. I don't want to get in the way of that then. No, no, I don't wanna get in the way of that. >> Ariana Malloy: Kind of a sacred space for me. So I try to really protect that when I can. >> Loren: Yeah. And also, like, I am super jealous that you're gonna get to walk on the beach, but it is what it is. >> Ariana Malloy: I know Colorado has mountains. There's nothing like the, you know, Rocky Mountains.

But also California has beaches and that's also pretty great. >> Loren: Yeah. Ariana is a, what was a part time resident, sometime resident of, uh, of the Denver Metro. Going to DU for your PhD. So you got to enjoy a little bit of it. Well, uh, even though your story is short in some ways, I'm, I'm grateful to hear it and also grateful because it gives us plenty of time to talk about your book. So Ariana is the author of Healthy Calling From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work.

And I gotta say, I was really impressed by this in many ways in the book, but let's begin. Just kind of the standard boilerplate question, like what inspired the book? Why did you want to write it? >> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, so in my master's, actually I got my master's at the University of Portland in Oregon. And in that time I was studying, um, how faith based organizations manage their business values with their faith values. And so that was

interesting to me. And as I was interviewing folks who were part of organizations that did that, I noticed they kept using the word calling, which just kind of was in my brain a little bit. Um, then I went on to get my PhD and I started studying literature on meaningful work. So in secular spaces, that terminology, meaningful work points towards purposeful work, work that feels purposeful and

impacting. And I remember reading a 2008 article where in this article about meaningful work, they said more studies should be done about how people also approach work as a calling. And it was like, yes, I need to study this. And so, uh, I studied how people from different professional domains experienced work as a calling. And so that would have been, you know, an nf. I interviewed an NFL coach, lawyers, financial advisors, stay at home parents, artists, musicians, um, teachers, and, you know,

psychologists. And so I found several things that marked the way they experienced work as a calling. By the way, not everyone I interviewed was a Christian. So people who aren't Christians still have this identified connection for purpose, which I think is God given, even if they don't recognize it. Um, so that's a really cool way to have a conversation. Too. Like, if someone is not a Christian and they feel called, you can say, well, what's calling you? Can you tell me more about

that? Um, so, yeah, so I studied that now in my dissertation. You know, it's like a good dissertation is a done dissertation. So I didn't have time to, like, fully investigate everything. Um, I studied how people experienced work as a calling. I also studied the impact of culture and community on that sense of calling. So when we have support from, um, our family or from our workplaces, and when we don't, how does that impact our ability to live that out?

I also noticed a lot of data showing up about the dark side of calling. And initially, it was just about like, you know, burnout and boundaries and sacrifice. Several years later, when I was given a research fellowship as a professor, I returned to some of that literature and through the lens of looking at humility, this was part of the fellowship process as we had to study

humility. And as it turns out, all the people who experienced a healthy sense of calling, who did not get sucked into the dark side of burnout, actually lived out this sense of humility in their calling. So this sort of exploded my research again, and I started looking at the dark side in a deeper way. I will say, Loren, that in the midst of all of that, I experienced my own sense of burnout. I didn't know I would feel called to be a professor. I did. The Lord stood. Super called me to

that. Um, but three years into it, I was burnt out to the point where I thought, oh, my gosh, I'm experiencing everything I researched in my own life. This is not good. And so I guess the reason what initially inspired this book was because I had been in that place of burnout. I knew what it felt like, and I knew how to get out of it. And I want anyone who's experienced that, who's about to experience that, who's experienced it for so long that they don't know what other parts of life look like

anymore. I don't want them to be trapped by that. And there are specific practices that help you get out of it. >> Loren: Yeah, this is really good. I'm intrigued that it's interesting, like you said, that you interviewed folks outside of church spaces and also outside of Christianity per se, who identified their work as calling. I'm remembering many years ago when I was pursuing seminary, and I would talk about

my wanting to go to seminary as a calling. And I m remember talking to a friend who was going to medical school, and she also kind of used similar Language to describe her, her journey to want to become a doctor. So it's very interesting that you say that. >> Ariana Malloy: Absolutely. In fact, I was driving down the 55 in California and there's, you know, billboards everywhere. And there was a billboard for a hospital, uh, that said, you, healing is

our calling. And that, you know, that was there, um, I was watching a commercial, um, you know, when commercials actually happen now on streaming services. And there was a commercial for a truck company, I think it was Dodge Ram. And, and they said, our calling is to build you good, uh, trucks. >> Loren: Interesting.

>> Ariana Malloy: And so there's this really interesting. I mean, I just think that's so fascinating that we all can identify with this, this feeling of being compelled by something that is the fingerprint of God on, on us and in us. We were made to be in relationship with him. We were given this thirst to connect with him from the very beginning.

>> Loren: Well, this is great. I want to talk about, just kind of talk through some topics in the book. So let's begin. You've kind of hinted at them already, some of the positives and negatives of a work calling. >> Ariana Malloy: Yeah. So I mean, what's really fantastic is that there's sort of three different ways people can approach work. And they're not contained, so they can overlap. And you can experience, sometimes you can experience all three in one day, depending on what's

happening in your job. But the three ways that people experience work is just a job. That's the first one where you go to your job because you need to pay the bills, which is no small thing. That's a very real thing. You, you took this job because you need to pay the bills. You, you clock in, you clock out. You might not like it, you might not love it. There's not necessarily a promise of upward trajectory. Like there's not necessarily like a 15 year plan

in your mind. You're going to work to live for the weekends. Very real. The second type of approach to work is a career. And in this, uh, mentality, there are entrepreneurs, there are people who really like what they' they think about it. They use their skill set, they have that 15 year plan. And to them success looks like, oh, I got to move to a bigger office. I got a job title change, I get to take my family on vacation, I get to buy a new

car. You know, certain, uh, I made, I helped make a playground in this urban area for kids. So very explicit sense of reward. Again, really great experience. Then the third one is a calling. And in our approach to work as a calling, It's a sense of deep joy and satisfaction where we experience four things happening. The four things that happen are that it's meaningful. So that's it's. And that could be the same as a career. It's meaningful. It's more than just functional. You derive meaning from

it. I interviewed a woman who was a makeup artist and she did makeup for people. And she said, you know, I get to help people feel beautiful. It was meaningful to her. I've interviewed people who were the custodians at a hospital, and many people unfortunately deem some work as not real work. And that's really unfortunate. >> Loren: Right? >> Ariana Malloy: That's actually, in my opinion, unacceptable. Um, it might not

be their ideal type of work, but it could be someone else's. And I remember interviewing a custodian at a hospital who felt it was their job to make that hospital room clean and welcoming for the next person who's experienced tragedy. >> Loren: Wow. >> Ariana Malloy: And so that, that's dignifying. So, so meaningful. So the second thing is that you feel a sense of call, like you can identify, like, oh, I feel compelled to do this. There's something

some people who are not Christians talk about the universe. I interviewed a musician who felt, literally felt like his guitar was calling him to be a musician. We as Christians know that that is God. The Bible says, my sheep hear my voice. You know, we respond to the shepherd's voice. So the first thing is meaningful. The second thing is calling. The third thing is also really important. It is the combination. And this is essential, the combination of skill and passion.

So many of us, and especially right after you graduate from college, it feels so good to do a job you're good at. It's very deeply satisfying. But that is a short term satisfaction. After about three months, only doing it because you're good at it becomes a little boring. There's also this need to feel passionate about it, to sense a connection to something that you care personally and deeply about. Now, the flip side's also

true. You can feel so passionate about something, but if you're not good at it, that can be very demotivating at times. And I remember interviewing, um, a CEO of a company who said, passion, uh, alone is not enough. Passion makes you a great fan. Passion and skill set makes you a great employee. You can think about it like, if someone did feel called to be a surgeon, it's great that they're passionate about it, but you wouldn't want them to walk into the

surgery room without training. This is where apprenticeship and growth and places like college or Internships and preparatory work is really important. The fourth thing about that sense of calling. So we've got that just a job, we've got a career that we've got calling. The fourth thing in calling after meaningful work, a sense of a caller passion and skillset. The fourth thing this is really, really important is that

it makes a positive impact on others. It is what social psychologists and social scientists call pro social behavior. Pro social behavior means that it's not just a hobby. Doesn't just make you glad, doesn't just impact you personally, it impacts others. And this, Loren, is where we can especially get into the dark side of calling is that connection to impacting others.

>> Loren: Yeah, so I think I, uh, was looking at my phone here. I keep highlights on my phone. So there's one. There's a couple highlights that stood out to me. I just want to read them since we're talking about this one. You. Early on, you say saying yes to good things is often more seductive than saying yes to obviously bad ones. Talk more about that. >> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, so. And you, you asked me, you know, um, talking about

the good and the dark. So of all those categories of people who approach work, if you feel called, you're actually the most satisfied in your job. You're the most motivated. You're able to withstand like, organizational change, societal shifts. You are the person people want in the room, you're the yes person. And that's great. But also research shows you're the most prone to burnout. M. More than any other type of person,

one might say, well, why is that? And it's because you see the need, you see the deep ache, and you know, you can feel it. And so it's really hard to know, is it okay to say no sometimes? If I'm saying no, am I letting down God, am I letting down my community? Like, am I allowed to have boundaries? And so it's really hard. I think often in certain seasons of life, you're just working hard to have opportunities.

I don't know if you've been in that situation. I think for me in grad school, it was like, anytime I had an opportunity, I was like, fighting for it. But then you get to a point in life where your opportunities are actually all good. And it's really, really hard to know how to say no to some of those. >> Loren: Yeah, let's talk about, um, I'm trying to find the quote here. Oh, let's talk about the danger of confusing a calling with the title. I'm trying to find the quote here.

Oh, uh, page 24. Too often we confuse a calling with a particular title when we should see it as a combination of skill sets and passions that can be applied to a number of different occupations. In this way, our specific calling is always tied to and should rest under our general calling. So I want to have you respond to that quote, and I also want to kind of, uh,

dial this in too, to think about. Like this podcast is a podcast geared at pastors and church leaders thinking about calling within a specific faith context, church context, and how that confusion can happen even amongst churches, uh, jobs, church leaders, so to speak. >> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, so I'm so glad you brought that up because when we're talking about calling, my specific focus of calling is the, the secondary type. So as Christians, we are all called. We're called to love

God and love others in everything we do. We do it as if we're doing it for the Lord. So that is a general calling that we all have in every sphere of our life. We should be looking and saying, how am I worshiping the Lord in this space? God wastes nothing. And so every part of our life is an opportunity to worship Him. And Scripture is very clear about this. How we do that is how we love other people. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Ariana Malloy: It's not separate. It's the same part of

the, of the primary calling. If we're not loving others, well, we're not actually achieving our calling with God. And so that's a primary calling. But God is not just the master of the universe, the grand king, he is also the intimate creator. And we need to recognize that he's made each of us with particular skill sets and

passions. Those are intentional. You know, I, uh, when I talk to college students and they're trying to figure out if they should like, pay attention to this interest that they have, I try to remind them, hey, not everyone has this interest. Part of the things that drive you that you think about when you're driving your car or brushing your teeth or you know, randomly doing something where your mind is going, you want to think about, is this something that's from the Lord and what am I? What

should I do with that? So I think as we're talking about calling, and especially like within the church contexts, we are all called to love God and love others. But we also need to take the courage and the risk and the vulnerability to explore how we specifically have been designed and um, how we can develop those skill sets and passions so that when we do those things, we feel like we're worshiping God. And that could be paid work Unpaid work, relationships,

service. So work is only one way in which a secondary calling can be lived out. It's not the only way. There are a lot of people who just are doing their job and that is great. And I, in um, fact both of my parents chose because they felt called to be good spouses and good parents. They chose work that they liked, they didn't love because they really wanted to make sure their home life was

secure. And I think that's the right way to do it. Some of us have the opportunity to explore paid work in that way, way as well.

>> Loren: So let's, let's dive into this a little bit more because I think there can be this temptation and maybe I'm just speaking for myself, having felt this temptation of pursuing a title when it doesn't necessarily align with your calling. >> Ariana Malloy: Yeah. So the reality is that people right now, and we're talking about the tool belt generation, is the newest generation coming out of college or coming out of high school? Um, okay. >> Loren: Tool belt generation.

>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah. >> Loren: I haven't heard that before. >> Ariana Malloy: Yeah. So people want to acquire a lot of skill. And I still believe that that comes through going to college because we can learn a lot about ourselves by being in class, being in the co curricular part of college life, being a little bit on our own, but still approaching life like an apprenticeship job. But college is not for

everyone. You might choose a trade school or immediately begin apprenticing with somebody, but the reality is people are changing jobs between 18 and 42 on average, 10 times. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Ariana Malloy: So if we get too attracted to a job title or a major or something that makes us feel super, super secure, we could potentially be missing out on what's actually happening. Because our calling is less about a job title and it's more about the skill sets and the passions

and the community we seek to serve. And there's a variety of ways to, to do that. So I do feel called to be a professor. But if I were to break that down, really, Loren, what I feel called to do is I love to mentor. Like mentorship is to me one of the most important things. I also love to collaboratively learn. I love to learn together and talk through things and explore the why questions. I love to speak interpersonally, one on one with people, but also

in large groups. And that can happen as a professor, but that could also happen in other places too. And if I'm not careful, if I hold that professor job too tightly, it becomes one of the dark sides of calling that we talk about, which is an idol. It becomes an idol rather than the way in which I can experience my calling. >> Loren: Okay, I really want to hone in on this because this is so important. I think for me personally, for my

context that I'm hoping to speak to. I'm thinking of a few different things. So I'm going to kind of just talk here and hopefully this makes sense. I'm thinking of a book. I'll have to recommend the title another way. It's been out for a few years and I had the authors on some time ago and they talked about, uh, they use the words like a telos, like an end, a purpose. So I think there's different language, similar ethos here. I'm also remembering. Do you remember this movie a couple years ago?

It was like the Sound of Music or the Noise? It's about this drummer who lost his hearing. >> Ariana Malloy: No, that sounds really fascinating. >> Loren: Yeah, I can't even remember what it was on, but it was really meaningful to me because I was going through a kind of a career transition where I was losing a title. Right. And I really had to think about like, um, this guy kind of lost.

He lost his hearing and he was playing in a band. Lost his hearing and couldn't obviously play in a band anymore. The movie kind of talks about his journey of like trying to figure out what his purposes, his calling is. And it seemed like his, his title was at one point like, he's a drummer in a band. And it seemed like he, through the journey of the movie figured out like that his, his calling or purpose, whatever, was as someone to, I don't know,

teacher or do music. He kind of went to a deaf school and it seemed like the, the kind of. The tease was at the m. End of the movie was like, he's gonna like, teach these, you know, deaf kids to kind of learn music, if I'm remembering correctly. But I'm thinking about this and again, I'm being long winded. So forgive me, but I'm thinking about this so often in. I mean, I see it myself in my own, uh, context.

I think for pastors and church leaders there can be such a grip on that title that A, like, sometimes pastors stay too long, uh, when they need to retire or move on to a different context. B, like when you stop having that title of pastor speaking personally, things are really, uh, confusing. Uh, and then three, it's like, as we think about American church, broadly speaking, the, the kind of professional pastor model is largely going away in many cases as folks think about bivocationality

and co. Vocationality, whatever. So I've given you a lot there. Uh, but strike, respond, uh, to what strikes you there. >> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, I love certainty. Um, I am a J on the, um, Myers Briggs, um, in the Enneagram, I am a 6. I'm a healthy 6 usually. But I like. I like a sense of safety. Um, I am a type A, although I don't think

I'm super stringent. But I love lists, you know, and I love that security and man job titles or choosing your major or, um, a season in life, like, oh, I'm a mom of a this age kid. Those are all fine. But ultimately, if we move from those things being an expression of who we are to the definition of who we are, we get into trouble M. When we move from them being an expression of who we are. Hey, by doing these things, I get to express who God is to me and I get to

love others. When we move from that which is healthy to this is who I am. And I don't know who I am outside of that. Red alarms, the fire alarm. Like, uh, you know, our smoke detector goes off very easily in our. In our home. Your smoke detector should be going off if your job is how you know yourself is the only way. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Ariana Malloy: And it's incredibly tempting to do that. I think, particularly, again, it's incredibly tempting to do that when you

feel called because you. You're experiencing this sweet spot, you know, Certainly not every day and not with every task. But generally speaking, the work you're doing makes you feel connected to God. And so when all of a sudden that's been taken from you or you no longer feel that because you're super burnt out, it's extremely disorienting. So I think what I would say is this goes back to making sure that we're approaching calling

in a healthy way. And what the really important thing about that is, rather than thinking about healthy calling as a category, I'm in it or I'm out of it. We need to think of it like a spectrum. Where am I today? I mean, in writing this book, someone asked me, did you write this book for yourself? I didn't because I've already experienced it. I wrote it for you. I wrote it

because my passion is mentorship. When I was writing this book, I was writing it imagining that I'm sitting across from a coffee table with my favorite white chocolate mocha in a beautiful mug, cozy with a fireplace nearby, looking at you, the reader, the listener, and we're talking together. I did that because, um, it's really, really hard. It's really hard when you've experienced that. I think there's a lot of things you can do. And I'm maybe going on a tangent myself.

>> Loren: No, go ahead. >> Ariana Malloy: But, um, there's a really fantastic grid called job crafting that you can do that helps you reset the current job you're doing. If it's not feeling like a calling. Job crafting, um, and that's, uh, thinking about the tasks that you're doing. Task crafting, relational crafting, thinking about relationships that you're experiencing, and cognitive crafting, just your mental approach to it.

And we can chat about that if you'd like, but there are things you can do. But ultimately, let's go back to this. Calling is about relationship with the caller. That's what it's about. It's relationship with the caller. It's relationship with ourselves. That's called intrapersonal communication. I'm a communication professor. It's intra how we talk about work, how we talk about

work with ourselves. So, for example, uh, when I went back from maternity leave after I had my son, I realized I was feeling so pulled in so many directions, and I was resentful of it. And so every time I left for work, my son would say, mommy, don't go. And I would say, I have to go, buddy. I have to go to work. And I was driving to work, and I thought, you know what? Me telling myself that over and over makes me believe that. But guess what I get to do? I get to go to work.

And so I just made that shift. And so the following day, I said, oh, buddy, I get to go to work. You know what I get to do today? I get to love on students, and I get to tell them about Jesus and communication. And I'm so. And you get to go to work. You get to go to kindergarten. It's so exciting. You get to learn, and I'll see you afterwards. And so reframing that to ourselves is really important. So relationship with the caller, relationship with ourselves. And

it's also about relationship with the community. And when we think about that, it's also. It's our work community, and it's also our personal community. Again with a healthy calling. Our families. That's, uh, a. That is part of our primary calling, in my opinion. And so whatever you see as your family, if you're single, if you're married, with kids, without kids, whoever you deem as your family, they better be doing really well. If they're not doing well, your work is secondary.

>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. >> Ariana Malloy: The problem is people go to their work because it's controllable. When personal life feels uncontrollable, when bad things are happening, when kids aren't listening, when conflict with spouses are happening, they go to work because they can control it again. That takes us to the other type of dark side, which is workaholism.

>> Loren: Yeah, this is all good stuff here. I, uh, feel like I should talk to you offline about the job crafting grid, but anytime, I would love it.

Uh, I want to talk more about shame and burnout. And I think if I'm understanding correctly, they're kind of two different sides, perhaps of the same coin. I want to read a couple quotes here. You write, when calling burnout occurs, resulting, uh, feelings of shame can distort our relationship with a caller, convincing us we are wasting, destroying or even violating the skills, passions and opportunities our

caller has given to us. You, uh, also write about deep shame being consuming, evident in a chronic sense of unrelenting worthlessness, self doubt, so on and so forth. I'm curious, I guess, do you think is, does shame always come from burnout? Can they form independently? That's what I, I guess that's my first question. >> Ariana Malloy: Yeah, good question. So part of understanding the

difference between regular burnout. There's been plenty of books and research on regular burnout, which is terrible. >> Loren: Right, right. >> Ariana Malloy: You know, people, regular burnout involves very serious things. Psychological paralysis, cynicism, apathy, deep exhaustion. People tend to get sick more often. Um, disconnection from relationships, just no energy at all. A lack of meaning. That's terrible. But burnout from a calling has a unique

fingerprint. It is not just burnout, it is toxic burnout. And what takes it to that toxicity is that chronic or deep shame? Because it's not just I don't like what I'm doing, which is terrible. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Ariana Malloy: It's. I don't know who I am anymore. >> Loren: Yes. >> Ariana Malloy: Which is completely disorienting. And the shame from that comes because of that relational connection with the caller and the community and even yourself.

The shame happens because it's not just that it's impacting you, it feels like it's impacting your relationship with God and the people that you felt like you're supposed to impact, uh, whether it's in your professional or personal life. So that shame is relational and spiritual and it is paralyzing. So they're not exactly the same. But that deep shame is part of the core problem with toxic burnout and it can hold people captive.

>> Loren: Okay, so I want to, I want to make sure I heard this. So it's. I don't like what I'm doing and I don't know who I am anymore. So it's this real toxic mess. Um, yeah. So you kind of. So I was going to ask you this question, um, about folks who feel vocationally lost. Because again, like, I've been there. I don't want to. I want to turn this into a counseling session here. But like, I have been there where I don't like what I was doing. You know, I didn't know who I was

anymore. So, like, when you're in that spot and you feel like vocationally just lost, because again, I'm thinking like, like there's so much transition happening in churches. I've seen this, uh, all across the church where pastors, especially after Covid, many folks, many leaders stepped down, went to work for, um, left a church, went for non profit or got out of the church game entirely. I've done that. And it's hard.

Uh, yeah. What do you say to those who, just because they're in that spot where they don't like what they're doing, they don't know who they am anymore because they've been so wrapped around this title. >> Ariana Malloy: Yeah. First of all, I just want to say I'm so sorry you're feeling that way or that you felt that way. That's a terrible feeling. And I don't think that it's a feeling you need to ignore. It doesn't. Like you're

not making it bigger than it is. It's a big thing. It's a really big deal. Um, you know, my parents were on pastoral staff for when I was a kid, and they ended up, um, leaving from that and becoming realtors. They worked as real estate agents. And my dad is a pastor. Okay. He just is you. You hear him speak and everyone's heart turns on. His voice is the kind of voice that makes people feel seen. He is wisdom incarnate, you know, I mean, he's God's wisdom. And,

uh, he's just a kind, kind, wonderful person. And he did real estate. And it didn't. It was. He was good at it. It just wasn't the thing that lit him on fire. But you know what he did? He chose to pastor in that role when he could. He would pray for his clients. He also got involved in two different small groups that he led. He also became a chaplain for first responders. And so he still did pastoring without the role of pastor. He certainly pastored me. Um, and he's pastoring my son so

he's pastoring my husband. Um, and so I feel like to not be dismayed simply because the title is gone doesn't mean that calling is gone. It just might need to be lived out in a different way. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Ariana Malloy: And I think going back to the caller and saying, I feel like you want me to do this, and I, um, don't see space

for this. Show me how. So part of it is just remembering that the calling is not lost because the relationship with the caller is still there and he is faithful and trustworthy. Now, it does require us doing a little more work sometimes, and it doesn't always look how we want it to

look. Um, so the other thing I would say, if you're in that vocationally lost spot, is build your board of directors. If you've not yet done this, um, think of a personal board of three to five people. Literally take the time to think about who you want, why you would want them on your personal board, and then what would be the questions you would ask them? Now I even think you can have people on there who you don't know. You know, like CS Lewis is on my personal board of directors.

Um, Dallas Willard. Right. Um, Richard J. Foster. I don't know them personally. I will go to them. I will go to their literature and seek knowledge that way. I also have some actual people that I know. And so building your board of directors and then intentionally, uh, and routinely connecting with them, whether it's through a podcast. I mean, you, Loren, might be the board of director for people, and they listen to your podcast, and so that's part of their guidance. But we cannot thrive

without community. Yeah, Wise kings, as Proverbs says, have wise counselors, we cannot thrive without community. We're not supposed to do this on our own. And, you know, we haven't really gotten into this part. But one of the other things that take us to toxic burnout is something called sustained or chronic stress. So you're talking about like, you know, the pandemic and stuff. What really impacted a lot of people is that stress was no longer like a, uh, seasonal stress. It

was like long term stress. And when that happens, three specific things happen to our communication in particular that cause massive breakdown. And one of them is just a reduced awareness, you know, in a heightened, ah, state of stress. We're literally hardwired to fight flight or freeze, you know, and we see in a tunnel vision. But we're not meant to live like that long term. And so sometimes we miss things. We need community to help us when we're missing things.

Shame is a lot quieter and a lot less powerful when we live in community. I mean, Bernie Brown talks about this. You know, when we, when we name it, it's a lot less powerful. It loses its power. And I think that, um, I think you can look at every part of scripture and see evidence of the health of living in community. But the problem is when we're in pain, we withdraw. >> Loren: That's. >> Ariana Malloy: That's one of the other parts of living in sustained stress

or chronic stress is we withdraw. And withdrawal is not necessarily a bad thing. For a time, that can actually be important. But you have to communicate that you're doing it and then return to your community. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah, this is all good stuff. Uh, I'm curious, too. As I think about this in my own life, what has been helpful for me is clarification around what is

actually my calling. And I'm curious, like, thinking about, like, your father's example, because, uh, like I would have said, like, five, 10 years ago, like, my calling is pastor. Like, it's like the title of pastor. And I'm wondering if my calling is like, to serve the church, which is different. It's similar, but different. And it can be lived out far different ways. I'm, uh, curious for your father, even more broadly speaking, for other leaders you've worked with.

>> Ariana Malloy: Yeah. Sorry, can you ask me the question again? >> Loren: Yeah, just like, if it helps, kind of clarifying or redefining what your calling actually is or. >> Ariana Malloy: For sure. And I think that, um, you know, one of the necessary things we have to do in a healthy calling, and I know this is really basic, so I'm not going to shock you with this piece of news. Okay? One of the things we have to do, we have to rest. We have to stabbith.

That's one of the three essential things in healthy, humble calling. And the reason I say this is that you cannot have times of reflection if you don't take time to rest. And you cannot make a change or course correction if you don't have time for reflection. So part of reorienting and checking back in with how our calling is doing is we have to slow down long enough to pay attention. And, uh, especially for people in ministry, actually, taking time to rest is super complicated.

It's just complicated. Um, but you know what? It's also complicated for other people. I've interviewed and worked with hospital executives and hospital staff. If they take a break in their mind, someone dies. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. >> Ariana Malloy: Like, really? And so I think it's important that we don't Elevate certain jobs as like, well, if I. If I rest, this job, this holy job is, you know, people are going to get hurt. Guess what? A lot of people feel

that way. That's one of the kind of glorifying ways of work that we need to get out of. We have humility in Micah 6, 8. It tells us to walk with God, we need to walk humbly with God. And humility means knowing that we can step away for a moment and life will keep going. And if it doesn't, we are actually way controlling things. We shouldn't be controlling. You know, it's not a healthy thing. Jim Collins, in his famous book Good to Great, talks about the difference between a good leader

and a great leader. A good leader, if they take a break from their work or their job, everything falls apart. A great leader, if they take a break from it, things still go on because people have delegated. They know their role, they know what's going on. So I think that going back to needing time to reflect, I would say to you, Loren, uh, that every

week I have to reorient my calling. By the time I get to the end of my week, enough other messages and tendencies and being pulled in different directions have gotten to my head and my heart. And if I don't take time to Sabbath, which I'm usually terrible at, by the way, I've been Sabbathing for 15 years and I'm still not great at it. Um, but I pursue it because I know I need to surrender my time. I need to surrender my focus. John Mark Comer talks about the worries, the wants, and the work that

consume us. We have to take a break from that so we can listen to the Holy Spirit and say, father, what do I need to know right now? Show me where I've been. Uh, a blessing this week. And show me where I've failed, and show me what to do about it. Where am I holding on too tightly? And where do I need to let go? >> Loren: Yeah, this is all good stuff here. I want to ask you two

more questions before we take a break. One is just when we think about, especially in church context, my goodness. Uh, this metaphor as work is family. Tell us why this is such a problematic metaphor and what we can do if. Because, I mean, I feel like even in church context, it's like work as family is almost like. It's like. It's not just like. Because there's. I mean, theologically we would say, like, yes, we're the body of Christ. We are siblings in Christ.

Um, for a pastor like, you know, we'd say that's my, that's my sibling in Christ that I'm trying to serve. But also, like, I don't know if, like, they're not my flesh and blood per se, like, I gotta go see my kids, for instance, or my spouse or whatever. Like, talk through that. >> Ariana Malloy: Uh, yeah, this is a really complicated and contentious conversation, or it could be at least, but I don't think it needs to be. Um, work is not your family because you don't fire your family.

So that's where it gets problematic. Now, I want to have a big asterisk when I'm talking about this because I have studied some organizations. I've actually worked with some organizations. I can think of one in particular that lives out the family metaphor beautifully. Now here's why. Because in that model of family, everyone has a say. They are family in the good times and the bad

times. So it's not just, oh, you're family, you better agree with me, right M. Dad or mom are saying, you need to do this, so you as the child need to agree. That's not how it was communicated in this particular organization. In this type of organization, family was used to say, we are so in this together that if you're not okay, I'm not okay, let's be okay together. And in this particular organization, the turnover was

so little. People have worked there for 30, 40, 50 years because they felt taken care of. And I also think that, um, family owned businesses are their own complexity. So I just want to say the big asterisk there. But generally speaking, we do need to stop using that metaphor unless we're going to live it out like that. That because we can be a community, we can be a team. You can find any other metaphor you want. But it's really important. We don't throw out the metaphor of family all the time.

Because when you do fire someone, let someone go, move them to a different part of the company, and you use that metaphor, that's manipulative. And it doesn't allow for people to respond, to have a different opinion. It then severs them. Did, uh, they get divorced from the family? If they got fired, can they still be part of the

family? And so I think as Christians, we are a family, but in the workplace and that gets really hard because when you work with your friends and you work in a church or a Christian organization, it's very complicated. But I would encourage people to resist using that metaphor. Really figure out what do you mean when you say that? And is there another Word or phrase you can use because we are a tight knit group. That's great to say.

But again, in the family metaphor, there's a very clear mom and dad and you are always part of the family. Whether you're adopted in or you're birthed in, you are part of the family. But that's just not possible in a workplace. That's just not the context of work. >> Loren: Yeah, that's good. Okay, one last question before we take a break. Uh, Arianna teaches and studies organizational communication,

uh, outside of this book. So share if you can just, I don't know, one or two thoughts, hints, uh, ideas for organizations or churches, whatever, however you want to take this, that may be common mistakes that really could be improved to help organizations do better in their communications.

>> Ariana Malloy: Great. Yeah. So one of the things I get to do outside of being a professor is I work as a consultant or, uh, I help do training workshops for organizations and churches and um, specifically on healthy communication in the workplace. And that is a whole array of things, but it's about healthy conflict in the workplace. How do you approach that? Learning about conflict styles, healthy

listening. So this is really interesting. There's four types of listeners and, and if you identify what kind of listener you are, you also know why you check out in like meetings and places. So then you're responsible for checking back in or making the ask like, hey, this thing right here is not happening. Can we, can we do it this way? So knowing yourself that way. Healthy communication is in the workplace also involves knowing how to

communicate with empathy. You know, Gallup did a study several years in a row that basically said 80% of people would work more hours with less pay if they knew they had an empathetic boss. I'm going to say that again. More hours, less pay if they knew they had an empathetic boss. Empathy is not lip service. It is slowing down long enough to make sure that person feels seen and heard. And if you have the power to take action, you take action on their behalf.

And so those are some, um, practical things. I also teach nonverbal communication. 70% of communication is non verbal approximately. And learning what that means in the workplace is really key. There's also things like, like what is your shared goal in the workplace? For example, I was talking to a VP recently who said, you know, it's really important to me that people respond to emails in 24 hours. And we were like talking about, have you made that clear to people?

Because if not, guess what? Over communication is your very best friend in the workplace. Over Communication. Communicating something multiple times is your very best friend, because everyone has a million things going on in their head, and especially if they're not part of your direct report. You might have thought you've said it once enough, twice enough, three times enough, but they might need to hear it seven times. Usually, people need to hear something seven times

before it really sets in. So there's all sorts of ways that you can approach communicating in the workplace to garner more cohesion, a greater sense of motivation, to figure out why these, like, side conversations on a different text thread or, like, at the water cooler are happening when they shouldn't be. They should be happening in the meeting. Um, and I think, again, communication is. It's like the air that we breathe. We don't notice it till it stops working, but it's super essential.

>> Loren: Well, I look forward to your next book, then, on organizational communication. Uh, Ariana's book is Healthy Calling From Toxic Burnout to Sustainable Work. Really recommend it. Let's take a quick break, and we'll come back with some closing questions. All right, we're back with Arianna Malloy. >> Ariana Malloy: Dr. >> Loren: Uh, Arianna Malloy, thank you so much for this conversation. Really appreciate your insights. Uh,

closing questions. We always tell folks you can take these as seriously or not as you'd like to, but, uh, if you're Pope for a day, what do you want to do with that day? >> Ariana Malloy: I m. Would love to see early childhood education be better for all people. I think, um, for families, in terms of knowing how to help develop and cultivate their kids from 0 to 8 years old

is really essential. And I don't know why people assume that just because you have a kid, you know what to do with them. It's a very lonely and challenging experience sometimes, and so I'd love to see more support for that across the entire world. Um, I think that it would be really great if we could change the way we treat people who are retired and who are done with their primary work.

I think we, as a society in particular, really devalue one of the most essential populations, and we miss out on their treasure. And we're also responsible for the increased loneliness that exists in that population. And that's a shame. And as in the church, we need to do better and not relegate them to the corners of the space. >> Loren: This is good. Okay, real quick, then. Uh, practically speaking, any, like, thoughts for the Pope on Pope communication?

>> Ariana Malloy: I. I, um, suppose treat it like it's as essential as medicine. Um, you know, as a professor in communication undergrad, people like, oh, communication. What are you going to do with that? And it's like, what can't you do with that? And what's crazy to me, I wish I could just, like, put it on a tape recorder or tape recorder. I now show my age. I wish I could put

it on repeat. Um, just that a couple years after people graduate, they come back to me and they say, oh, my gosh, everything you taught me in communication, I'm using on a daily basis. Uh, but you just don't see it because it feels like it should be obvious, but it's most of the time the obvious things that get us into trouble because we don't do them well. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. A historical Christian figure you want to meet or bring back to life.

>> Ariana Malloy: Okay. I don't know if I can choose between them. Um, I love Peter from the Bible. I love him so much. Um, also John, also Mary. I feel like she is such an interesting person. I would love to know more about her, certainly C.S. lewis. I don't know if you would frame Jane Austen as a Christian figure, but she, to me, is a phenomenal, ah, figure in the development identity of women in particular. Um, so those would

be. I mean, let's be real. C.S. lewis would be my very first choice, but maybe C.S. lewis and Peter, I don't know. >> Loren: Sure. A dinner party perhaps. >> Ariana Malloy: Ooh, fun. >> Loren: Yeah. Uh, what do you think history will remember from our current time and place? >> Ariana Malloy: That is a really profound question, and I think

that. I don't know if I know how to answer that in a lighthearted way, because I feel like at this point in the world, people have lost their minds a little bit. >> Loren: Well, it's. >> Ariana Malloy: Our world is really crazy. >> Loren: Let's leave it there, because that's actually a profound way of saying it that, um, let's say this more hopefully. What do you hope for the future of Christianity?

>> Ariana Malloy: I hope for the future of Christianity that we stay true to what the definition of biblical love is. It is not a, uh, it's not for one type of person. It's for all of us. Love is kind. Love is patient. It is not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrong. I also love the definition of wisdom that the Bible gives us. We are meant to be peacemakers, and we are called to live in peace. Colossians 5 says that.

So I would love if we, as Christians, truly people, would know who we are by how we love others. >> Loren: That's good. Uh, share how people can connect with you. Get the book, all that. >> Ariana Malloy: Yeah. Uh, the easiest way is to Go to my website, which is arianamilloy.com on that website you can sign up for newsletters and resources or not. You can

see a bunch of my talks. You can see other things that we do. You can order the book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or some other different, um, options. And, um, if you just have a question you want to ask me, I will totally, I would love to engage. >> Loren: Well, I really appreciate this conversation. So meaningful for me and I hope for our listeners. Uh, one of the things we always do on our podcast is a communication practice of, of

leaving people saying a word of peace to folks. So may God's peace be with you. >> Ariana Malloy: Thank you. And you as well. >> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website@future-christian.com and find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren.

But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.