Future Focused Church with Raymond Chang

>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation with

Raymond Chang. Raymond is the Executive Director of the 10x10 Collaboration Part of Fuller Seminary, which is a collaborative movement that is geared toward reaching 10 million young people over 10 years with the gospel. He is also the president of the Asian American Christian Collaborative, a pastor and a writer. Prior to his role at Fuller, Raymond served as the Associate Chaplain for Discipleship at Wheaton College. He has worked in the for profit and nonprofit sectors and served

in the Peace Corps in Panama. He and his wife, Jessica Min Chang, are proud parents of Sophia, and they reside in Chicago. A reminder, before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro uh.com with comments, questions, or ideas for future

episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern the future of the church. >> Loren: All right. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. And I am pleased to be welcoming today Pastor Raymond Chang. Hello and welcome to the show. >> Speaker D: Hey, Loren, it's great to be with you. >> Loren: Yeah, thanks. Anything else you want to say about yourself? >> Speaker D: I mean, uh, my Social Security number is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5678.

>> Loren: Just the last four digits, maybe. >> Speaker D: No, I mean, um, yeah, my name is Ray. Uh, I lived all over the world. Uh, I enjoy traveling, although I don't get to do it as much because I have a beautiful, uh, baby that's two years old and, uh, she occupies most of my free time. And, uh, uh, married and happily, uh, married to my lovely wife Jessica. And we're just trying to advance the kingdom together. >> Loren: That's awesome. That's awesome.

>> Speaker D: Share. >> Loren: If you would just come out your faith journey. What that looked like in the past, what that looks like today. >> Speaker D: Yeah, well, I mean, I got to honor the ancestors for me because I have seven and eight generations Christian, uh, going back and so, uh, I have the privilege of having a long heritage of Christianity and faith

uh, in my family. And uh, that's been a really significant and important part of my identity as well as uh, I think kind of the spirituality that I've embraced and I'm trying to carry on and pass on to my daughter, um, which is very rare because I'm a Korean American. Uh, and ah, the major waves of Christianity began in the late 1800s and 1900s in Korea. And then I was born here in the US as the first of our generation to do so. So I'm second generation Korean American.

Um, I've lived all over the world and so I've lived in uh, Chicago, Korea, Hawaii, California, Guatemala, Panama, Spain, China. Uh, and so I feel like I've seen the world and I've seen the world's needs and hungers as well as the beauty of Christ expressed throughout the. And I've seen faith communities flourish in places where Christianity isn't welcome and faith communities uh, not flourish so much in places that think that they're Christian. And so just seeing a lot of different uh, things.

And um, I love the Bible, uh, uh, I love everything about the activity of God throughout history. Um, and I love the Asian American church as well as the broader kind of church and the immigrant church has really been a significant part of my own formation. And so uh, shout out to all those uh, under resourced ministers that basically on top of a full time job ran uh, a church uh, with zero time and zero budget that they had just so that they can provide a spiritual community and space

for people to convene and gather. I don't know if I shared a little too much, but that's just a little bit about me. >> Loren: No, I appreciate the shout out for bivocational pastors and uh, those who do it for love of ministry and love of God without a huge paycheck. So I appreciate you sharing that.

Anything else? Uh, we always ask guests anything about a spiritual practice or discipline that's meaningful for you. >> Speaker D: Yeah, so I've been thinking a lot about the difference between spiritual practices and spiritual postures, um, and how I mean practices are going to be a part of our spiritual formation no matter

what. But um, I was reading a book recently and she was articulating how uh, the challenge of Western Christianity is how spiritual formation is viewed in such a linear manner that it leads to the practices being a kind of mastery over God and over your spiritual life

instead of allowing God to be mastered over you. And I've been thinking a lot about that these days and trying to figure out, okay, what are the postures I need to embrace so that the practices actually bear fruit in a way that's not deformative in making me think that I can kind of go and, um, master Jesus and instead allow myself to be mastered by Jesus. >> Loren: Oh, that's. That's. That's wise. That's wise. I appreciate you sharing that.

Well, Ray is the author, along with Cara Powell and Jake Mulder, of the book Future Focused Church. Uh, but rather than do, like, the generic, like, oh, what inspired the book, I kind of want to start this way because I think this was one of the most intriguing lines from the book that y' all write, that you believe that the future of the church is brighter than the past. And I think for many pastors, for many church leaders, for many folks even in the pews, that seems pretty shocking

to hear or to read. So talk about that. >> Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, we know that. We know the data. We know that the church is shrinking, that the church is aging, and that the church is feeling more and more irrelevant. You know, we've seen how, you know, political and social ideologies have basically split the church and defined the church and taken over the church. We see how young people are actively leaving the church. And so we're not, um, naive to those realities.

But at the same time, the church really flourishes when it's squeezed because the church tends to have to lean in or lean away from God in the moments of greatest difficulty. Uh, in the US I don't think we're quite at the levels of persecution or anything like that. But I do know that whenever the church is persecuted or whenever the church is, um, put in a corner, God shows up in some amazing ways because the people of God actually begin to depend on God.

And I think one of the greatest challenges of Christianity in the US Right now is that we've created a Christian ecosystem in the world world where dependency on God is optional. And when you look at the Bible, that's never the case. And so, um, the other thing we know is that nothing is going to prevail against the kingdom's advancement. And the primary unit and, uh, means by which God works is through the church.

Now, the church might look differently, its form might look differently over time, but, uh, when people are gathered and they're assembled to worship and they meet on a regular basis, and they are, uh, worshiping God together, praying with one another, serving together, um, and meeting with one another and healing each other and proclaiming God's Truth and promoting justice. We know that good things follow because the kingdom is being proclaimed. And so in some way we just know that

Jesus is in control. And all throughout history nothing has been able to eliminate the church. And we don't think anything's going to be able to do that, uh, even if we do it to ourselves. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah. I appreciate you sharing that.

I want to ask about because I think one of the things that was really important, as I understand it throughout the book, increasingly or repeatedly, excuse me. Was this idea of creating culture change in order to create lasting change. Do you want to talk more about the importance of creating culture change versus just trying to create change on its own? >> Speaker D: Yeah, I mean so you know, culture eats strategy for breakfast. Right. And so

without, and without a vision, people perish. And so if you want change to last, it has to be deep within the bones of the culture, of the community. And it's one thing to just have practices or kind of a shallow uh, acquiescence. It's another thing when people actually uh, kind of embrace and internalize and the community begins to move in different ways. And that's what we're calling for.

>> Loren: Yeah, well I think it speaks to something else y' all write about is that people support what they help create. And I think this was interesting because we're in our current at least the last 10, 15, 20 years as society kind of de institutionalizes and things become more bottom up and even populist. I think in many ways, as we're seeing today, um, I guess talk about the

importance of engaging people then. I'm m also curious if you have some thoughts on some of the dangers or perhaps guardrails you might want to have in place. So it's not just like um, m majority rules or you know, um, whatever the biggest population wants. >> Speaker D: Yeah, I mean one of the core principles that we promote is that people support what they have, you know, that they are able to create. I mean I used to lead small groups in um, at a Christian

college. And uh, one of the things that we would always say is nobody feels like they're part of the group until um, until they hear the sound of their own voice. And because of that we know that if you're going to do something then you have to invite people into it. Otherwise it just becomes a mandate where you're just telling people what to do. And so

people just aren't interested in that. And so one of the things that we encourage people to do is to help people create or help people participate, uh, in the provision of input and, and we kind of offer several steps in order to do that. Um, you know, uh, that the first is figuring uh, out like who

is a part of this. And one of the things that we encourage people to do is create a transformation team if you want to lead change within a larger organization, to identify some key people out of a diverse group of people to help speak into the change that you want to see. Um, and then of course, as we map out the who, uh, we also want to figure out how do we actually help create a sense of support, uh, for that.

And so we want to allow people to practice something called keychain leadership, which is, uh, handing people more keys, uh, that their capabilities, power and access that they carry, the potential to empower all generations, but especially young people. Um, we want to say, hey, here are some of the ways that you can lead change and be clear with that, with the parameters of their authority that you're handing

to them. And then of course, um, thinking about what they create, uh, while you hand over these substantive keys, clarifying the desired end goal and giving all sorts of freedom on how to accomplish the goal. One of the things that we want to do is invite people to help create God's future for our faith community together. And a part of it is just asking, asking the right people the right questions, um, just having them

ask questions that are very practical. We offer a bunch of those in the book, spend time getting the input of those who resist division. I think it's so important to spend time getting input from those who are kind of resistant.

And then I think the third thing is, um, and actually that I cite my father in law, he would always talk, talk about the ways that the most passionate people, the people that care most about your faith community or your church are those that, um, oftentimes might resist and that those who might resist and challenge are sometimes those who want to protect the community. Not just protect their preferences, but

actually protect the community. Ah. And of course, then returning with them after you hear the feedback from people, uh, to report on how you use the feedback. And so there's a few ways that we encourage people to support what they, uh, that we encourage people to, um, uh, create the avenues for people to support what they create.

>> Loren: In 142, page 142, you talk about like a transformation team, their leadership, and the threefold process of looking back to the past, looking around, and then looking forward to the future. So talk about those three time frames and why it's important to understand all those metrics. >> Speaker D: Yeah. So we know that God is working in, um, eternity past, eternity present, eternity future.

And in our current day and age, we, uh, don't have to reinvent the wheel, nor do we have to ignore the beautiful traditions that have carried us through in the past. And so looking at through the past, it's helpful to understand why your community is where it is. So one of the things that we encourage people to do is investigate your church's founding narrative. Like, what was it that led the church to emerge? Because there's something about that that probably still remains in the DNA of the

community today. And then the other thing we encourage people to do when they get past is to, I think it's construct a, uh, congregational timeline. So, like, what are some large events that had happened throughout history? And then, of course, to explore key questions about what things emerged, um, in the past, to figure out why certain decisions were being made at the time. You know, when were we at our best? Uh, when did we. How do

we handle something similar to what we're hand. How do we handle something in the past that was similar to what challenges we're facing right now? You know, how have our church's culture, uh, leadership kind of helped or hindered us? Then we got to look at the present, right? Because we know that we can't just live in the past. We have to honor the past. But we can't just live in the past and, uh, especially honor the good things of the past. And so, uh, we want to figure out what is happening

at the moment. Now, some people are so, um, past focused that they're living in a heyday that no longer exists. And so it's really helpful to name your church's current reality. I think the other thing, um, that would be helpful is to, uh, kind of conduct a swot analysis of where you are right now and then uncovering some mixed messages, um, to make sure that you're not confused in a variety of ways. The other thing is looking

ahead to the future. We want people to move from here to there with the who and the how, which is our kind of a fourfold framework. And you can learn more if you read the book. Um, we have to think about, uh, in terms of the future, what are some of the obstacles that are going to be there, uh, on the way there, what are some problems and opportunities, what are some barriers and challenges? And then, of course, why we're trying to move to the there. What is it that needs to lead to the change?

Because sometimes we don't articulate all these things. Or we don't even take the time to reflect on what's happened in the past and what's happening now. We come up with visions that might not be tethered to our current reality or even our past reality. And so those are some of the things that we want to encourage people on.

>> Loren: Well, speaking of doing the long, hard work, this struck Me too. Page 166 you write about. Pastoral and congregational imagination don't simply happen overnight, but the result of, uh, faithful and intentional work honed over time. I feel like this is like the one missing ingredient that is so often lacking is just that time part. And part of it is, I don't know if you'd agree, but it seems like churches just wait too long to do

this. So by time they get to what feels like a crisis opportunity or crisis moment, that they're just like, we need to make decisions now. Like, you know, there's eight people in worship, or the budget is like in a disaster scenario or what have you, uh, talk more about that faithful and intentional work honed over time. >> Speaker D: Um, so one of the things that we encourage people to do is maintain disciplined, um, action

and attention. And the reason we encourage this is because change efforts require intentionality. They're not just willy nilly, they aren't just something that you kind of just decide one moment and you don't have to continue on with. And so that's a big part of, um, what we try to emphasize and we try to walk people through. Um, mostly because if you are leading change, it's likely that as you go through the process, things are going to change

in your change process. And so you might decide that you're moving in a direction and then realize, oh, this isn't the right direction. But we know that these steps that we've taken here are the right steps, but these steps are not. And, and so if you're not disciplined, you can literally just throw the baby out with the bathwater and go in one direction instead of another. And one of the things that we really want people to do is, um, just to

know where they're going. Because otherwise you end up packing with, um, whatever wind blows. >> Loren: Uh, it's interesting that you use the word discipline because I'm thinking about how in the book y' all talk about everything in church being fundamentally about discipleship. You know, you use that reference of what from James, right, Chapter one of being

blown about by the wind. If I'm thinking of the right text, talk more about the importance of these things being grounded in discipleship I mean. >> Speaker D: Everything we do should be grounded in discipleship. Right. Uh, one of the great mandates is to go and make disciples of all nations, teaching and baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit. And so that is a big piece for us, uh, that we are trying to, uh,

emphasize and lean into. And so, um, yeah, I don't think that anything we do should be untethered from our commitment to discipleship. In fact, our first key checkpoint is relationally discipling young people. Because that seems like, uh, something that the church claims to do but doesn't often do enough, especially when you kind of look under the hood. And so discipleship is central to everything that we're doing. Is that answering your question?

>> Loren: Yeah, uh, yeah, because I'm thinking about it through the lens of having a groundedness or a foundation or something holding. I mean, there's lots of data right out about how young people are shifting so significantly, especially apart from each other. Like, like young men and young women are like going to opposite poles.

And it seems like many of these social movements that were like, oh, like we can count on young people for equity and justice causes, it seems to me that because so many of them didn't have the foundational grounding, a Christian word, we might say, of discipleship, like, to me it seems like that's why folks can be so easily swayed against these same kind of

social ground, good causes. Uh, so I'm wondering similarly, can that happen like in church where folks don't really understand like why we're making these changes, why we're trying to do this? It's because discipleship, because we're discipling him, like faithfulness to God and the gospel message of Jesus. >> Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, uh, we have to start with why and like, we have to begin with why. It's really important to continue to articulate the why and then

go back to the why over and over and over. Because we can easily drift away from the mission, we can easily drift away from the purpose. We can do a lot of what. And the what really doesn't matter unless it's tethered to uh, a compelling and substantive why. And so yes to everything that you're saying. >> Loren: Do you think, then thinking about, you all write about the importance of follow through. Do you think that why, again, that ah, disableship

why is also important? Because if we don't really understand the why, we're going to lack that, that endurance, that perseverance. >> Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, I think that's uh, that. Yeah, I think so because why is the motivation behind things. And so it's also the kind of the, the root reason for why we do things. And so I would say yes. Uh, I mean there's two

ways in which you can motivate people. You can either kind of dictate the terms and tell them this is what we're doing, or you can compel them and motivate them by showing them the deeper reasons into know what you are doing, uh, and why you're doing them. And so when people understand the why, the nature of a, uh, compelling move oftentimes work. >> Loren: And that's I guess, the big time challenge. Right. Because doing that why work of explaining the why takes so much more time and buy

in than just mandating. This is what we're doing and this is when we're going to do it and so forth. Right?

>> Speaker D: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. No, I think the why work is taking the time to sit down with someone that might not understand what you're doing and why you're doing it, uh, explaining it to them sometimes multiple times, especially if it's uh, significantly different than what you've been doing in the past, uh, especially if it disrupts what you, um, uh, what they're accustomed to. And this is partially why we encourage people to begin with listening or start with listening.

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: And then to listen really for the losses that people might be experiencing. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: Because when you do like, you can understand that they have a why, that they're operating what operating with. And their why might be just as, just as significant as your why and you just don't know, you know, like why that is. And so, um, yeah, so I, but so the explanation of the why is,

is, is really important. But you also have to know that sometimes you might, and it might not land and require you to sit with things or even change your own mind on some things. Or if you feel like you uh, have the authority and you think that the community will go with you to say, and you have a very clear idea of what needs to be done.

But it's hard to convince everyone else, um, to work with as many people but then try to figure out like what do you do with the person that will not follow and actually wrestle through, think about those things and try to um, ensure uh, that they are cared for in the process.

>> Loren: Yeah. So let's talk more about that because again, I'm thinking of kids. I mean your kid is young, right? What'd you say, one? Two? >> Speaker D: Uh, she's two. >> Loren: Yeah. So you don't have to deal with too much of this, I suppose, quite yet. But why? >> Speaker D: Why, why? >> Loren: As she continues to grow older, they get from experience, they get less compliant, so to

speak. And as a parent, we can explain all we want, like the rationale why they need to brush their teeth or take a bath or do their homework. Uh, but it seems like maybe I'm wrong on this, but it seems like in every parent's life, perhaps also in every leader's life, there needs to be some kind of. There's got to be some kind of moment of truth where it's like we're doing this my way or the highway, and maybe certainly not frame it that way.

But, I mean, what about when we come to those real hard points in the road where clearly it's like we need to go left, but they want to go right. You talked about carrying through that. Talk a little bit more about that. >> Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, at some point, there are decisions that have to be made that are not going to be easy for everyone. And the best thing you can do in those moments is to be as

pastoral as possible. Make sure you've done the job of listening and actually listening deeply. Uh, because a lot of people listen just to move on. And so you don't listen just to check a box, but you listen to hear the heart. And if they're saying something in a way that you might not be understanding, then I would say it's incumbent on the leader to draw out the

clarity they need from someone. Because oftentimes, especially if you're a spiritual kind of authority or you sign their paycheck, they can't be as candid and honest as they want with you. And so you're going to have to find ways to draw that out by being someone that's safe to share those things. And then from that place, it's like, if you really can't move in a direction that's together, um, you know, like letting them know,

you know, like, I like. And hopefully you had other people in the community to share this, like, to discern with you. But, you know, I think at the end of the day, it's, you know, that there has to be some decision made. And the reason you're leading the change is because the, uh, status quo is untenable. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where it's helpful.

I'm appreciating so much of what you're saying about understanding their why, because I can imagine if you're really listening well, understanding their why, there might be some opportunity for connection or at minimum, maybe just some kind of respectful agree to disagree situation where it doesn't have to be, ah, harsher or grading is the word I'm looking for. >> Speaker D: Yeah, no, I mean, if someone feels. I mean, I think our job as leaders is always to, um,

treat people with the dignity that they deserve. And the way, you know, you hold them to a dignified regard is how you engage with them in differences and differences of opinion. And if you can't handle their objections or their questions or their, um, uh, challenges, then, uh, I'd be more concerned about the state of the leader that's trying to lead than the person that's offering the

concerns and vocalizing them. Because again, if we believe in the imago DEI in everybody, and we believe that everyone has a very unique and important vantage point, and that even if they're not right or we agree with them on everything, there are some things that we can agree with them on. And so trying to figure out where those alignments are and agreements are, and then figuring out, like, okay, are they actually right or are they not? Because sometimes the people that we

least want to listen to are the prophets. And we know that God sent prophets, uh, to be among us so that we can align with his heart and will. And whenever that the people of God didn't listen to the prophets, trouble ensued. But they were always inconvenience. Right. Prophets were never a convenience to the community. >> Loren: I'm thinking about this way too, about commonality, like, uh, we can at least have in common with people. Imago dei, all

were created in the image of God and Christ died for all. So we have that in common. Right.

Let's do one more question before we take a break. This was kind of a funny thing when I read it because it's so obvious, yet not so simple, but so many miss it. Why is the worship service the worst place to initiate change? >> Speaker D: Yeah, um, because that's usually like the. >> Loren: First place we go.

>> Speaker D: Yeah. Well, because I think, um, a lot of people think if you want to change, I think that inherently we all know that if you want to change culture, go to the places where the masses are. And m. The one place everyone is gathered is going to be the worship service on a weekend. And so you want to initiate change, that's where you initiate change. And sometimes that's appropriate. Like sometimes you need to lead through the pulpit. And we saw that with the

civil rights movement. We saw that through other kind of major movements, uh, in the church. Um, and we should certainly lean on that where it's appropriate and needed vast majority of change efforts within a community, because communities are essentially organisms that have established ways of knowing, being, and doing. Uh, sometimes it's helpful to introduce new things from

the edges. And so one of the things that we encourage people to do is experiment from the edges, because change is always going to be disruptive. And if you lead change out the gate, you might shock the system to the degree that I don't know who. I was just talking. Was it. You just said the thing about the carpets and the music. I literally was just having a conversation today where a new worship leader came in and was completely disrupting the entire traditional service. And in his mind. And

it's not. I wasn't having this conversation with you. I was having. >> Loren: No, but keep going, Keep going. >> Speaker D: Yeah. Um, and in his mind, he was, like, softly introducing new things, but he was doing it at the main sanctuary in the center of it all. And I said, you have a church where there are 50 years of people being accustomed to one type of worship. The best way to do that is by starting to introduce new music in other venues.

Maybe you start in the foyer and the lobby where they're introduced to different type of music. Maybe it's not the Sunday morning service, but the Sunday evening service. Maybe it's something else, you know? And so those are some of the things that we should think about. >> Loren: Yeah, that's good. That's good. Uh, those things can be interesting. Well, let's take a quick break week. We'll come back with some closing questions. Okay. We're back with Pastor Raymond Chang. Really appreciate

this conversation. For our guests, we always tell them, you can take these closing questions as seriously or not as you'd like to, but if you're Pope for a day, what might that day look like for you? >> Speaker D: I mean, if I was Pope for the day, I'd probably want to drive around in the Vatican mobile.

So that's probably what I want to do the whole day. And just like the Pope mobile, go around Rome and hang, uh, out, eat some gelato, and then spend time with those that are most hungry for kind of spiritual nourishment. Um, because there is a unique place and space for clergy to be amongst the people. And so I'd probably do one of two things. I'd do the popemobile thing for fun and eat some gelato in Rome, and then I'd probably spend time with the poor.

>> Loren: Hey, that's good. That's good. That's funny. The. The episode we just released, the. The guy gave the same Answer. Popemobile through, a drive through. So. Makes sense. >> Speaker D: Well, if he gave that answer or she gave that answer, then I'd probably say if I was pope for the day, um, I'd wanna, uh, add a stroke of paint to the Sistine Chapel. >> Loren: Now we're really getting, really getting sacrilegious.

Okay. Um, a historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life besides Jesus. Yes. >> Speaker D: Well, Jesus is still alive. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: Um, I mean, probably Martin Luther King Jr. There's so much I want to learn, you know, from his life. >> Loren: Okay. Um, what do you think history will remember from our current time and place?

>> Speaker D: Political syncretism. I think that history will look back on the church as widely being syncretistic with politics. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Speaker D: And simultaneously silent in addressing it. >> Loren: That's the most interesting response I've heard of that in some time. And it's dead on. Like, I was just having that conversation, but not in that way, the way you're framing that. Really, really accurate.

>> Speaker D: Yeah. >> Loren: Really accurate. >> Speaker D: Yeah. I mean, a big part of it is churches. Churches are already feeling the dividedness, you know, that they are trying to be a church that is, you know, either multicolored or purple. And the reality, uh, is what that often means is that they, they don't engage with any of the things that they need to be engaged with when it comes to politics. >> Loren: Yeah. What do you hope for the future of Christianity?

>> Speaker D: So besides the obvious answer of the church being future focused along the lines of what we're writing about in the book. >> Loren: Right.

>> Speaker D: I, uh, really think that I would love the church to better reflect the kingdom of God and, uh, reflect the kingdom of God in ways that is so compelling that it doesn't need power in order to be relevant, but that it simply needs to love and speak the truth and serve the needy and care for the hungry and prioritize the poor in ways that we saw Jesus doing. >> Loren: Yeah. Well, I appreciate your time. Appreciate the conversation. Do you want to share how folks can

connect with you? Get the book, all that? >> Speaker D: Yeah. Connect with me on social media. I'm on, uh, all the major platforms. Uh, you can find me on Facebook, on Instagram, on bluesky, on Twitter. I'm trying to figure out if I need to be on TikTok or not. I never want to be one of those people that try to dance on TikTok. If you ever see me do that, um, feel free to send me a private message shaming me, uh, so that I am not one of those Christians that do the dancing stuff.

Uh, no. Shade to those that do. I get it. It's just not me. Um, and then, uh, yeah, so Instagram is raychang502. Um, Twitter is Tweet Ray Tang. And then if you're interested in, uh, connecting with, uh, us, it's futurefocuschurch.com, you can get the book. Um, and, uh, I also lead the Asian American Christian Collaborative. And so you can go to aacristcollab. I am with the 10x10 collaboration and so you can go

1010. Org. There are so many links that you should follow and so check out all of them. >> Loren: Yeah. Awesome. Well, I really appreciate your time your the conversation. We, uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. >> Speaker D: Peace with you too. >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments

and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website at, uh, future-christian.com and find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the table page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.