From Pulpit to Platform: Alexander Lang’s Journey

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Martha Tatarnic again welcomes Alexander Lang to the show. Martha had a great episode with him back in season 14. We'll put a link in the show.

Notes Alex is a former PCUSA pastor who worked in church ministry for 20 years. He has since left the church to pursue a technology business that is designed to help people form meaningful relationships. Alex's interests include independent film, electronic music, and deep conversation with people who question, doubt and want to dig into the most complex issues we face as humans. When he's not working on books, podcasts, or the restorative faith movement, Alex enjoys spending time with his wife

and two sons. One more thing. Please take a moment to leave a review on whatever podcast app you're listening on and share this episode with a friend. Thanks and enjoy the episode. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am the co host of this podcast, Martha Tatarnic. Today I am having a conversation with someone who is becoming quite well known to our future Christian community, Alexander

Lang. Alex, you're becoming a bit of a fixture on this podcast and I'm so grateful for that being the case because it is always such a, uh, delight and a uh, time full of insight when I get to be able to talk with you. >> Alexander Lang: Oh, thank you. Wow, that's really kind as an introduction. No, I'm really happy to be here. It's been really nice to be able to uh, consistently come back and talk to you all, uh, and to be part of your, to be able to speak to your audience.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, for sure. Now, just a, ah, refresher to our listeners or to give some context to new people tuning in. Um, Alex, we've had a few really interesting conversations on past Future Christian episodes. The first time we talked was about a year ago I think, and it was after your choice to leave parish ministry, an article that you had written about your reasons for leaving parish ministry

going viral. And uh, I felt quite privileged to be able to talk with you in the midst of all of the many media requests that you were fielding at that time. Um, then we talked earlier this year about your new book, Restorative spirituality for the 21st century rationalist. So why don't you catch us up

on what is going on for you right now. I know that you do have a few creative irons in the fire, so can you just, uh, tell our listeners what's getting you out of bed in the morning these days or keeping you up at night? >> Alexander Lang: Sure. No, no, no. Yeah. The last time we spoke, as you said, I had just published Restorative, uh, Beauty. And as you can appreciate, because you're working on a book right now, uh, it feels good to

have it behind you. So when you're in the middle of it, it's just so much time and effort goes into that. And so to be freed of that, uh, was just a wonderful thing. I was able to kind of turn my attention back to my podcast, which is the Restorative Faith Podcast, which is a little bit different from. From the way that you all run yours, which is basically conversations, uh, one on one for the most part. And with

mine, it's more of a highly edited kind of thing. The best analogy is actually Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist history is kind of the way that I modeled it after, like, an episode. Takes me about 50 hours to put it together. >> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my God. >> Alexander Lang: Uh, uh, where. Yeah, because I'm like, I have a whole team. I have, like, a team of reporters who work with me, and so they go out and they find these interviews. And so to actually get it together and to have a

full, full episode, it takes quite a lot of time. So I dropped my whole season all at once. But we've been working for two years on season four, which deals with the conflict between, uh, science and religion and, uh, science and Christianity in particular. Yeah, it's a big one. My podcast focuses on why people are leaving the church, and science and religion are a huge one. So I've been waiting a couple of years to be able to do this, and I have some amazing guests, uh, for the season, so

I've been working on that. But then, of course, the other thing that I've been working on for the last several months is a, uh, YouTube series called Quoro. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yes. And that is what we're specifically going to be talking about today. But I just can't help to weigh in a little bit about your podcast and, uh, to say I'm very excited to hear that season. Coming, uh, to the,

to the podcast universe, there. There probably is, like, some analysis that you could do about various personality types and what sort of podcasts we gravitate toward putting together. Because I do think that there are elements of your personality that I have seen emerge across our conversations that suggest that you like to, you know, have, um, some, some control over the details of how, of how an episode comes together. >> Alexander Lang: Yeah, well, uh, my wife always says that

if I can make it harder, I will. And so, I mean, I hope that when people listen to it, they feel the love and care that went into it, because that's super important to me. And I want to say I really appreciate podcasts like these, where, like, it's a whole different kind of thing to find people to have them

on and to have these conversations like you all do. Those are so important because the consistency of those conversations, they matter, you know, whereas not everybody can wait two years to put out a couple of episodes like I'm doing. So I think that this is just as important, equally as important to what I do. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, I think both are valuable. It's just sort of interesting, uh, the different approaches and the different benefits of

each approach. I think, um, is pretty cool. So, yeah, that's, uh, that's going to be a lot of fun to be able to check that out as well. So let's talk about Kokoro, though. Um, when you were first sharing this idea with me, you said that it was very much influenced by the work of Mr. Rogers neighborhood and, uh, that you grew up with that being a, a big influence in your life. I grew up in Canada and, uh, Mr. Dress up was sort of more of the show

that I watched growing up. So I don't, I actually, like, don't know that I ever watched a Mr. Rogers episode when I was a kid. Why don't you share with, um, with our listeners what it was that struck you as a child about that show? >> Alexander Lang: Yeah, it's a. Ah, it's. You'll have to tell me about Mr. Dress up sometime. I don't, I don't know what that is. >> Martha Tatarnic: That's a Canadian.

>> Alexander Lang: Like many children in the United States who grew up on public broadcasting television at, uh, PBS, we, you know, you had access to Mr. Rogers neighborhood, which was part of their programming, uh, in the morning hours. And particularly if you only had a couple of channels like we did, you know, we, we literally had an antenna. When I was growing up in the 80s, we, uh, didn't have cables, so that was, that was one of the things you had access to.

And so I watched this program every single day, probably from the time I was probably two, uh, till I was about five or six. And, uh, if you don't know much about Mr. Rogers, what's fascinating about him is that he. He was one of the first people ever to speak to kids in a way that they could really understand. But he didn't pander to children. I think that's really important to say because he would talk

about issues that really impacted their lives. I mean, he talked about conflict and sadness and anger, divorce, death, violence. I mean, even war. I mean, he talked about big, heavy things that were going on. And I think it's something that's important to point out about Fred Rogers, which I love, is that he was a Presbyterian pastor. So he attended, uh, Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and was ordained as a minister in 1963 to serve people through television programming.

Ultimately, he chose to serve children specifically. Uh, and what I love about Mr. Rogers, if you. If you really dig down into it, he never explicitly discussed theology on the show, ever. Right. But underneath every one of his shows was a beautiful theology of love and acceptance. And so back in February, I was perusing YouTube, as we do, and I came across an old episode of his show. I hadn't watched it in quite some time, and I got to the end of the show, and he said

he has his famous words. He would say every time, which is, you've made this day a special day by just your being you. There's no person in the whole world like you, and I like you just the way you are. So he would say that at the end of every. Every program he did. And I'm, um, not going to lie. There were tears in my eyes, like, hearing that again, because, you know, as an adult, I can't remember the last time someone said to me, I like you just the way you are.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Wow. >> Alexander Lang: And so then I got to thinking about it. You know, wouldn't it be nice if there was someone to remind us that we're enough like a Mr. Rogers neighborhood for adults, where every so often we could come together and be reminded that no matter the difficulties we're facing in our lives, we are loved and worthy just as we are.

And so, for me, I kind of thought about that, and I was like, you know, personally, I think we need to hear that message as much as we can now more than ever? >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, do you feel like you were clocking as a kid that, um, there was a faith dimension to

what he was saying? It's really like, as an adult that you've been able to kind of Revisit. >> Alexander Lang: Yeah. >> Martha Tatarnic: No. >> Alexander Lang: Yeah. I had no clue at the time. And in fact, I didn't even know about that until I was at seminary that he. That that was part of his. That that's who he was. And so it's only in retrospect, looking back at it and kind of seeing the show, I was like, oh, my gosh. And. And, uh. And yeah, it had a huge impact on

me. In fact, at one point, I think this is a really fascinating thing. When I was really digging into my theology, what I truly believed. I went and I read about Fred Rogers theology. And to be honest, they. They mirror each other. So even though he never once used the word Jesus, he never once used the word God, his theology, for the. By and large became my theology. Which is. Which shows you how effective it was. Yeah. >> Martha Tatarnic: That's amazing. That is amazing.

Like, to be able to. To line that up so clearly. Wow. Um, so, I mean, we're always, as faith leaders, we're always just trying to noodle our way through how we communicate faith in a world that sometimes seems a little apathetic or even resistant or, um, combative toward faith. >> Alexander Lang: Um. >> Martha Tatarnic: Um. What? Like, do you think that there is, uh, a message for Christian leaders in how Fred Rogers went about doing this?

>> Alexander Lang: Absolutely. So, you know what's interesting about Fred Rogers, I, uh, think this is. This is a fascinating element of who he was, which is that when he pursued television programming for children as his ministry, the gatekeepers in the Presbyterian Church didn't fully understand what he was trying to do. Like, they kind of felt he was out there. Like, they. They were like, uh, okay, I guess you can do this. But they didn't. The. The only analogy they had at the time were

these charismatic preachers on television. So I think it was really hard for them to envision exactly how his television show was going to work. Or for that matter, how would he be a ministry of any kind. >> Martha Tatarnic: Right. Uh, right. >> Alexander Lang: Today we can look back on that. Right? And we can say to ourselves, oh, my gosh, there's such a genius behind what he was doing. The problem is, is that he was thinking on a completely different level than most pastors.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Right. >> Alexander Lang: It's, uh, like for most pastors, their understanding of sharing their theology and faith is centered in traditional methods. So, for example, you know, the weekly sermon or teaching a class or a mission trips or pastoral care. And I don't think. Don't get me wrong, like, I don't want to, you know, demean any of that. Those methods are tried and true and they still represent how the vast majority of pastors approach their

ministry. Mhm. But I think with the erosion of the traditional church, these methodologies, from my perspective, are becoming less effective simply because they rely upon people being heavily invested in their local church. That said, even for the people who are invested, the format of the service doesn't conform to the way we consume information these days. So just like for example, the weekly Sunday sermon, so our attention spans have become so short.

The idea of listening to a person speak at them for 15, 20, 30 minutes, however long it is, it just doesn't make sense anymore. And so even if you're super charismatic and a great communicator, it's just not the way that most people consume information any longer. So I think what Fred Rogers demonstrates is that non traditional methods of communicating theology and faith, they can be super effective, but you

have to be willing to think outside the box. I mean, he looked at the culture of his day and time and he saw this burgeoning medium of television and he realized there was this massive gap. Nobody was really trying to meet. Children where they, where they are, right? Mhm.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Mhm. >> Alexander Lang: But perhaps more importantly, Fred Rogers understood that, you know, by impacting them and imprinting them with these theological ideas at a young age, you're laying a really critical foundation of thought that can follow a child for the rest of his or her life. And as we talked about, I'm, I'm a great example of this, uh, in my own life that he was able to do this.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, when you share those closing words from each of his episodes, it does sound like a very Christian message. It sounds like a message that, you know, we hope people walk away with from our Sunday services. So, yeah, it's quite brilliant and seems like very ahead of its time. Let's just put a pin in. There's a few things I want to follow up with about, um, that idea of adapting our message to new media. Um, so I want to

circle back to that eventually. But I want to talk about Kokoro specifically because, um, it isn't just a remake of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood. You're not working for PBS and you're, um, Vision isn't for children. So, uh, why don't you sketch out for us, um, how you're structuring Kokoro. >> Alexander Lang: Yeah. So I wanted to create a show that talks about important issues that we face as adults. And I think that's the driving force is that there's always a

theme that drives every episode. So trust, uh, anxiety, curiosity, Regret, doubt. So it's, it's these, these themes that, that are universal to every single person. Anybody can relate to them. So

that's really important where, where we start, right? And then what I did was I broke every show into four segments. So like Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, I wanted the segments to be predictable. So every episode follows the same pattern. >> Martha Tatarnic: Right. >> Alexander Lang: Um, so the first segment always starts with a story that establishes the theme. And I always tell this story sitting in my green chair in my

living room. And this is similar to how Fred would begin his program in his living room, uh, every show. And so, so I tell this story that establishes the theme. And then the second segment is usually an interview that takes place in my kitchen. So this is often where Mr. Rogers would, uh, interview his guests. You know, he'd bring people in, he'd be, oh, somebody's at the

door and he'd open the door and he'd bring them in and come on in. And sometimes he'd talk to him in his living room, other times he'd take him to the kitchen and have a meal. So what I always do is I prepare a meal or a snack or a dessert that reflects the topic of the show, uh, that we're talking about. So, um, I want to play a short clip for you of one of these interviews and just to give

you the backstory on it. This particular episode is called Wounds, and it's about the physical and psychological injuries we incur as children and how they manifest into adulthood. >> Martha Tatarnic: Right. >> Alexander Lang: And so, so I'm Speaking with, uh, Dr. Kenyatta Fletcher, talking about how the people she works with, how these wounds can manifest in

their lives. In the program that you work in, you know, where you are right now with the patients who you see, how many of those patients that you see have that childhood trauma? So depending on how we define trauma, at least 80% of our clients have some form of trauma. Um, much of the trauma does come from childhood and it is physical, sexual, uh, emotional abuse. You know, what are some ways that you've seen psychological abuse play

out in some of your clients? So psychological abuse, one of the hardest things to deal with because it has long term lasting effects. There's a certain level of stress that is positive and then there's negative. So negative stress is high, stressed environments all the time, whether it stems from, you know, your economic status

or any of that, witnessing violence. Um, but emotional and verbal abuse is one of those things that's hard to let go because it impacts your thinking about your, yourself, um, and how you feel in Terms of, of life and what others think about you, your self esteem. So after finishing the interview, then I moved down to my family room for the third segment, which is I'm always sitting on the floor. And during the segment we're always engaged in something tactile, like I'm

building something. Now Mr. Rogers, he would always have an object lesson. And you know, running a church, when, uh, you're talking to children, object lessons are really important, usually for the children's sermon. But I always felt like having, um, something that's physical to represent what we're talking about becomes so important. And so I decided to mirror this in my episode as a visual

representation. So the, um, basically the title slides for my episodes are always that object, whatever that object is that I'm working with. Um, and they all have something different to do with whatever we're talking about. Now, concurrent with me constructing the object, I'm also teaching a specific concept that's the linchpin of the episode. So for example, the episode on trust, while I'm talking about the concept of trust, I'm building a structure out of Magna tiles.

And I don't know if you have ever played with Magna Tiles before. >> Martha Tatarnic: No, I don't think so. >> Alexander Lang: I never had them when I was a child, but they're new, so my kids had them. And basically they're these tiles made of basic shapes like squares and triangles, and they have magnets inside of them that you can very easily build with them. It's kind of neat what you can do with them. Um, and so I play with my

sons with these, with these magnetiles all the time. And so the idea though that I use them for, I pull them back out because my sons are teenagers now. Uh, but I pulled them out and I thought the idea was to represent how trust between two people is like a structure that we build over time and how that structure can be damaged or even destroyed when trust is broken. >> Martha Tatarnic: Right. And I mean that, that's

really great too. Just in terms of like all that we understand now I think about learning styles and about the ways in which concepts are reinforced psychologically in the human brain is to have kind of those different elements of, of uh, how you get at a concept. Right. Like to have that um, tactile piece, like brilliant. It's really. >> Alexander Lang: Yeah, yeah. Well, and the hope is, as you said, you know, they're, they're not going to remember everything that I say,

but what they will remember that like in their brain. You're right, they're going to link Together. Oh, there was this object, and. Oh, yeah, this. He was building that building. And it was about how trust can disintegrate. Now, they. That may be all they remember, but that's okay because at least they remembered something. And you're right, it's. It's having those kind of connections that

really. That really matter. And then from there, I moved to the final segment, the fourth segment, which is in my dining room. And so whatever I was working on in the previous segment, now that's on display next to me while I talk about strategies for addressing the issue. So this is kind of like my practicality. And this is. This would be where I diverge a bit from Mr. Rogers, because Mr. Rogers, he would provide practical applications for

children. But, you know, children, by nature of their disposition, you know, they have very limited capacity to change their circumstances. Like, they just. They just can't do it because they have so little control over their environment. And so really, the function of his show was just to make those children, for the most part, feel seen. Like that was really what he was trying to do, which was beautiful. Um, but as adults, we have more volition, right? We have choices in our lives, and we also

have more baggage that can weigh us down. So we actually have things that life experiences that have hurt us. And so the goal at the end of each episode for me is really twofold. One, I want to let the viewer know that whatever baggage they're carrying with them, that's understandable, that's part of life, and you shouldn't feel judged for that. And two, I want to provide inspiration and strategies

for improving your life. And so I want to play a short clip where I'm discussing how finding a deep sense of purpose is one of the best ways to overcome our anxiety. And for just a little bit of context around this clip, earlier in the episode, I discussed Maslow's hierarchy of need. And I come back to that in this section as a grounding point for purpose in our lives. So from my perspective, what I think we need to do is we need to look at the top of Maslow's hierarchy of

need, self actualization. The idea behind that is that you're reaching your full potential as human being. And in reaching that potential, what you're doing is you're taking your gifts and you're using them for the benefit of people all over the world. I think one could argue that the greatest purpose a person can have is when they know that their presence is changing the world for the better. And I think the place where we can do this best is with the people in

our lives, our friends and our family. Because when you invest those gifts that you have, and we all have very special gifts that we can use, when you use those to improve the lives of the people around you, expecting nothing in return, what often happens is you are shown a great deal of love and appreciation. And that's so much better than any amount of money you could receive.

>> Martha Tatarnic: So I'm interested, like, I think that um, what I'm hearing across these clips and across your uh, descriptions and the segments and so on is um,

very much like applicability to the things that like, as adults we struggle with, um, that like very sort of universal experiences of you get to adulthood and you've got wounds and you've got trauma and you're looking for healing and you're looking for purpose. So like, are there specific Christian theological principles that you're, that you're building into this as well without using Christian

language? Do you feel like there are more general faith principles that you're, that you're drawing on? What, what's kind of the theological underpinning that, that you're working with? >> Alexander Lang: Yeah, so my thinking has been shaped and formed by theology. So that's, I can't really divorce those two things any longer just because of, as, you know, as a pastor, this is just something that it becomes part of your thinking. Uh, so even if I wanted to, I couldn't do that.

But as you heard in that clip, you know, there's a lot of theology bound up in that clip. Yeah, right. Um, I'm articulating a very particular approach to finding purpose that is of course resonant with Jesus's teachings. So if somebody watches that episode and they follow my advice, they will be living a faith based life whether they are Christian or not. >> Martha Tatarnic: Right, right.

>> Alexander Lang: But also like Fred. Right. Even though there's a lot of theology undergirding my approach, you're never going to hear me talk about God or Jesus in any of these episodes. And uh, and I think that's kind of like to me, the beauty of kind of what comes out of this is for somebody to have an encounter perhaps with the divine or with these teaching principles that can shape their life where they don't necessarily even realize, oh, this is explicitly Christian.

In fact, if you told them that, they might turn away from it because they would say, oh, I don't want anything to do with that. But when you package it differently, that provides it in a way that people say, oh, well, that feels like Something I should, I should try. That feels like something I should apply to my life.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And I mean, just like, correct me if I'm wrong here, but what I really hear you saying is that like the offering that you are putting together here is very much based on Christianity as an action based faith rather than a doctrinal faith. So like, I don't hear you saying that you're, you know, trying to explain the mystery of the Trinity in a way that like, will sort of get into people's consciousness without them realizing it. Like, that's not

the takeaway. Like, the takeaway is very much like these are the, the things that you can actually do to lead a more holistic, healed, healthy, um, fruitful life. Does that, just that. >> Alexander Lang: Absolutely. Well, yeah. And you know, for me, I've always approached Christianity and Jesus teachings as a blueprint for life. It's one of many types of blueprints that a

person can utilize. Personally, I feel that it's a, uh, beautiful blueprint for life and it's a very fulfilling, probably in my opinion, one of the most meaningful ways that you can live. Now other people might disagree with me. We, you know, that might

look at that and say, no, that's not the case. But I think that if you take his teachings, you put them into practice, that is going to lead to a life that is, that brings you meaning and purpose and fulfillment in a way that other choices, uh, whether they be philosophical choices or theological choices, may not. I'm not saying it's the best way ever. I'm not saying it's right for everyone. I'm just saying that I think that it's a good way to live your life.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Every funeral that I've been doing lately, the family wants John 14 where Jesus says, I am the way, the truth and the life. And um, you know, really like I am the way, I'm the road. Like this is, this is a path that leads to truth in life. Right. Like, yes, that, um, I, I think it is very arguably at the heart of what Jesus was about. >> Alexander Lang: I would agree completely. I think that's a great way to put it.

Uh, uh, and you've, you've redefined that verse in many ways because the traditional way that people have interpreted that, of course, is that you believe in him so you can go to heaven. You just taking the concept of the way and saying it's a path forward, a road that you can walk down. I mean, that's a beautiful redefinition of that verse. And I think that for me, I Would agree with that wholeheartedly. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. It's a path that leads

somewhere. Good. Um, I guess the other follow up piece that I'm wondering about, like, I'm intrigued by Fred Rogers ending every episode with this affirmation that like, you are good and worthy just the way that you are. Do you feel like there is kind of a, uh, basic affirmation that you're trying to communicate in Kokoro? >> Alexander Lang: Yeah. So I end every episode. I do borrow this from Fred Rogers. I have an ending.

Um, I say, no matter who you are, no matter where you've been, no matter how you feel, please know that you are loved, you are seen and you are cared for, if by no one else. By me. So that's how I end every episode. Um, and I feel like this will get into kind of where the show is ultimately going within the things that we're talking about. Like, particularly when you're talking about things like wounds or anxiety or people don't feel like they are greatly loved or seen or cared for.

Um, and so when you're talking about these kind of hard things, often, and, um, they're not every episode is really, really challenging and hard. Some are about imagination and curiosity. There are other things. But when you're talking about these hard things, I think people need to know that no matter what they've been through, that somebody sees you. Mhm, mhm. And wants the best for you. Because I don't know, I. In my experience, not everybody has somebody like that in their lives.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I think, um, I think knowing that you're not alone, I think knowing like being able to trace that there are reasons why you feel this way, there are resources for changing the script. I mean, I think all of those components are extremely important and some sometimes really easy to lose in adulthood. >> Alexander Lang: Yeah, I, uh, I think that the, what I see for a lot of people is there's a

huge divide. There's people who have the tools to be able to take those hard things and start to work with them and the people who don't. And I think that one of the most beautiful things about where we are today is that you can offer tools to people. I mean, that's essentially what I'm doing, is I'm offering thoughts and tools for how you could restructure your life, uh, particularly if you were not privileged enough to have those things, to be able to enter, to

even know. I mean, uh, something that is so striking to me so often is that you can talk to people and you realize, oh my gosh, it's not that you don't care about these things, it's just that you've never been exposed to them. And with the right kind of exposure, those tools can help you transform your life. But until you have that exposure, you don't know what you don't know. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. I want to come back to this idea of repackaging, um, our core Christian messages and communicating them in new ways. Um, and just give me a little leeway here because this is an ongoing conversation for us in the life of the church, particularly around social media. Um, I think that what we have tended to do in the church, and I'm speaking from my neck of the woods in the church, is that we have tended to use social media as a way of

marketing, um, our events. You know, like getting people to come to the church, getting people to follow our services, getting people to listen to our sermons, getting people to come support our bazaar or whatever. And obviously I think that there's value in doing all of that.

But I've really been asking our team here to consider also, particularly with TikTok, because we've just made some experimental steps into TikTok, um, like whether there's a way of thinking about our use of social media that is not about trying to loop people back to the church, but instead is about communicating a message that we actually believe people need to hear into

the social media landscape. Right. Like, um, like I, I am really convinced, for example, that, um, that people need to be invited to see the nearness of God at work in their lives. Like, people need to be invited to have language and um, vision to talk about and see how the fingerprints of the divine are kind of smudged all across

our human existence. And maybe that is a, ah, good in and of itself is to be inviting whatever audience you happen to connect with to just see the world around them in a different way without it having to then also be an invitation to. And come to our church. Right. And come to come to our Sunday service specifically, or, you know, come to this upcoming fundraiser. Um, how are you sort of thinking about, um, the platform you're using, which right now is YouTube.

Right. Um, like, is the goal just to, to be putting out a message that people need to hear or is there, is there also a loop around, you know, and then do something about it? >> Alexander Lang: Yeah. So you're, you're asking kind of a multi layered question with this, which is, which is, I mean it's, and it's a, actually I think it's a really fascinating question. What you're bringing up. So let's take it back to Fred Rogers

just for. Because I think this is an interesting thing. Right. So he saw the medium, like we talked about, the medium of television in 1960s is a way to reach children. And social media platforms, they represent this remarkable tool that has the potential to reach millions of people. I mean, more than television ever could. Right.

However, one of the challenges with these platforms is that unlike traditional television, whether or not someone finds your clips is going to rely heavily on what the algorithm decides to show them. Right. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. >> Alexander Lang: So I think we all know from being on these platforms, content like what I'm creating is not

often going to show up in the feed. What tends to drive the clicks, the likes, the interactions, are clips that grab people's attention, which of course are going to be things in the extreme. So um, it can be extreme sports, it can be comedians making fun of people, people, uh, doing dances that people love. Right. Police, uh, chases celebrities and politicians saying

things that are controversial. So these are the things that people watch and these are the things that tend to get the uh, most like that show up. Mhm. Now that said, there are literally billions of people on these platforms. So just because you post thoughtful content, it doesn't mean there isn't a niche for you. Right? There's going to be a niche out there. So I, but I do believe that if you're going to get people to watch something thoughtful or even theological, how you dress it up matters.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Right. >> Alexander Lang: So for example, let's take you're preaching, you preach on Sunday. If you take a clip from you preaching on Sunday morning and turn it into a short on TikTok or YouTube or whatever on Instagram, unless you're saying something absolutely ridiculous like staring at the sun is going to give you the ability to see Jesus, then it's just going to go to the bottom of the heap. Right. No one's ever going to see that.

Now if you take that same content from your sermon and you turn it into a skit where you act it out with yourself, or you're able to catch people's attention by delivering the content in a unique way, then you have a higher probability of getting your content to land. So I think to answer your question, yes, I believe these platforms do offer the ability to help people to examine their lives and see the world differently, just like what Fred Rogers

did. But it has to be very different and outside the box compared to what the church currently offers. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, because I guess the thing with Kokoro and the thing that I'M constantly struggling with, and, you know, lots of us in Christian leadership are constantly struggling with, is how you get out of the echo chamber. Like, ultimately, you don't want Kokoro to just reach the same people who are already engaged with

your work. Right. Like, you want to make a connection with people who. Who haven't heard that message and who are going to be built up and strengthened and given something good in their lives that, like, they need. Right. Not just sort of enrichment for people who are already, like, tuned into the good news. Right. >> Alexander Lang: Yeah, well, that's. And I think that's the challenging aspect of this platform is that

the things that people like, why do people get on it? They don't get on it generally to think, oh, I want to be enriched. Like, they get on it to be entertained. Right, Right. So I think that's the challenge with it, is that most people's purpose in being there is not the purpose of what we're trying to create. So you have to be sneaky. I mean, I hate to say that, but you just kind of, uh. Do you have to be

sneaky about it? And so, like, one thing that I'm doing with my stuff, which is so my show, it ranges anywhere from, you know, it can be anywhere from 14 minutes to 24 minutes. It depends on what we're talking about. The, uh, interviews, all that stuff. I know that putting that up in a big block is going to do me no good. Right. Like, I'm going to put it up there. I'm going to say I edit the show so it's a whole show so people can watch

it. And I want people to watch it. But how do I get people to go to the show? I get people to go to the show by creating small little shorts of my stuff that'll catch people's attention. And m. Then hopefully what that'll lead them to is to that segment that that's from. So they'll watch the segment and then from the segment, my hope is that they'll go to the whole show. So the idea is that you have to. You literally are laying breadcrumbs for people and hoping that they will be able to

eventually find their way. Because when you think about it, that's how we find our way to most things that we like now is it's a short that kind of gets us, you know, what's our appetite? Then we kind of say, well, wait, who is this person? You click on the thing and then they usually have something a little larger. And then you're going like, to the whole thing. So I feel like you

have to use that methodology, but you have to. But the other thing is, and this is kind of another aspect to it, which is hard for you in your position and why it's easier for me. So you're running an entire institutional church right now. Right. Like, like, you. You are. You're. That's, that's, uh, that's your job. So for me, I can think about this all day, every day. I can put tons of time and resources into which,

by the way, like to edit my episodes. You're talking about, you know, 30 hours a week for me to do that. So you don't have that kind of time to write to film. Right. Like, like, you need. You would need a group of people to come together and help you do this, to, uh, make it happen. And that's the problem is that most churches, A, they're not thinking that far outside the box.

B, you know, even if you personally have the capacity to do it well, you often don't have the time to do it well enough to make it, like, to make it stick. Because, uh, it's not just getting one thing they have. You have to constantly produce content. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. >> Alexander Lang: And I think that's the hardest thing about it.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And I mean, it is exciting that you have the capacity to be able to invest that sort of time and vision and imagination into, um, I think what's a really important, important creative venture and like, such an important frontier for us to be on. Ah, in Christian leadership and faith leadership. Like, are you. I guess, what is your vision for

where you hope Kokoro will go? And like, a sidebar to that question is like, do you hope people like me and other Christian leaders, do you hope that, like, will access your show as resources that we can offer our people? Like, is that. And our audiences, like, is that part of what you're hoping to do? Realizing that, you know, a lot of us who are leading churches are strapped for time and resources.

>> Alexander Lang: Yeah. So, I mean, in some ways the hope is, you know, if we're thinking, like, what kind of audience would it be like if you kind of start there? You know, I think that for me, my, my audience is. Is definitely people who want meaning. They're searching for meaning. So that's going to be like, my, my, my initial target audience is people searching for meaning

thinkers, people who love to learn. Um, but I also, it's not just that, you know, I'm also thinking, okay, if you're, if you're somebody who's depressed or you're somebody who's dealing with anxiety and you come across one of my clips. Well, that's something that could really get you going down this path. That wouldn't, which is why I'm trying all these different things. So it's like my target demographic is people pretty much like you. Right. It's, it's people who

listen to this podcast. And I hope that, you know, I would love it if somebody took a little clip of what I did for, uh, one of my sections and used it in their sermon or use it, you know, that's what it's there for. It's, you know, I make it and, and I want it to be, I want it to be spread in that way. >> Martha Tatarnic: Right, right.

>> Alexander Lang: Um, but I think one of the problems with this medium that we get into is that as much as the content lends itself to a person having a rich inner life and exploring these topics that could really widen, give them an interaction with the divine. The thing that you have to get more comfortable with in delivering this message is that you are trying to cement yourself as someone who is recognized by the public at

large. I mean, I hate to say it, like, I hate the word influencer, like I actually despise it because it brings to mind the idea that your credibility is being used to peddle all sorts of goods and services that come from endorsements. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. >> Alexander Lang: And that's of course diametrically opposed to the way the mainline church operates. Like, we try not to have personality driven ministries in the

mainline church. Right. We don't, we don't want that in our churches. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. >> Alexander Lang: But the problem is, is that in the world of social media, name recognition does matter. So I think that if you're really going to invest time in trying to spread ideas to these platforms, you're simultaneously going to have to build a following. And I think that in and of itself is hard for a lot of pastors generally to

get their mind around. Because I think that if you're humble enough about what you're trying to do as a pastor, that's not really your goal. Your goal is to spread the good news,

right? Mhm. It's not about you, it's about this larger message that you're trying to get out there. But in order for it to really work on social media, you have to kind of get comfortable with that idea and live in that tension a bit. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And where are you sort of falling on that tension right now? Like, do you feel like you can walk that line?

>> Alexander Lang: Well, I think before that Viral moment back in, uh, like a year ago, um, I was not very comfortable with that at all. In fact, when I started Restorative Faith. This is interesting. I remember I was doing the website and there were no, there was like one picture of me on the website. And I remember I had somebody come in and take a look at it because I wasn't getting any views. And they said, well, of course it's not getting any views.

Nobody knows what it's about. They like. And they're like, what's it about? I was like, well, it's about these ideas. And they're like people. And like this woman was really direct with me. She's like, people don't care about ideas. She's like, I'm sorry to say it, like they don't. They care about who's the person conveying the idea. So unless you're going to get out there and put your. So now my face is all over the website. Right? Because,

because. And I. And that was hard for me because I was like, well, no, it's not about that. It's. It's about, it's about the ideas themselves. So for me, I think that was like a first step. And then when that thing went viral, that's when I was like, oh, this is what. It's a little taste of what it's like to be in the public eye like that. It's not super fun all the way around, I'm not going to lie. But at the same time, people paid attention.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. It is, uh, kind of an interesting paradox of social media because like, we're always complaining about how social media is sort of the death of personal in person communication. And yet it is so driven by the personal, by like that desire to connect personally with, with others. Right. Like to feel like this is somebody that, that I, I know about their lives and therefore I'm interested in the ideas that they have to share. Although there's something kind of

beautiful about that too. Right. Like that, uh, that just basic human desire that no matter what media we come up with and how the platforms change and stuff like that desire to connect personally is always there. >> Alexander Lang: Yeah. Which you know, just to kind of say, you know, where Kokoro goes.

Because, you know, the idea is I'm making these 12 episodes for a first season, but the idea is I want to garner enough consistent viewers that I'm going to have an audience who wants to engage with a live show, so. >> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, okay. >> Alexander Lang: So like in the first episode I stayed openly, like at the conclusion of the first Season I'm going to host a weekly live choro on Patreon beginning, uh, in

January. And so the show, the live show will have some similarities with the film show. Like, I'll tell stories, we'll have points of learning. I'll probably interview people. But the big difference, like the core difference is that I want to spend time interacting with people who are, who saw me and now they want. Because the whole point is like, I want to build a community and I want to talk about their lives. I want to talk about what are you facing.

Like, uh, and create this supportive community where those words, I told you at the end aren't just words. It's actually happening for them in real time when we get together. So like January 8th, uh, you know, that's when it launches on Patreon. And so like 7 to 8pm every Wednesday Central, uh, standard time. That's where I'm going to do it for about three months and see what happens. You know, if nobody shows up, nobody shows up. But I'm m going to try.

And I think you have to do that because the difference between my Mr. Rogers neighborhood and uh, where he's talking to children is they have a suspension of disbelief that m. Like, to them there's no diff. Like they're in Mr. Rogers house with him. That, that, that glass doesn't, doesn't appear to them adults. We do not have that suspension of disbelief. We need that interactivity to feel connected. And

so my hope is, is that, that we. That Patreon would be like the perfect bridge that allows us to like, create that community from all over the world. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, that sounds very pastoral and like, again, it sounds like a, uh, uh, reworking of some of the basic pillars of church community into something that, um, is maybe going to connect people who wouldn't be interested in a church community but would be very much nurtured by, um, authentic

community and the living. Out of those core messages. Where does the name kokoro come from? >> Alexander Lang: It's a Japanese term. Uh, I come across it a number of years ago. And, um, it really, it's. It's a sacred word in Japanese culture that talks about the connection between body, mind and soul, or heart, mind and soul. Kokoro encompasses what we're thinking and feeling, uh, our aspirations for ourselves, which is kind of cool. Uh,

and then, because that's a lot of what I'm talking about. But one of the best English renderings of it, I think is the heart of the map. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. >> Alexander Lang: Uh, which I think embodies the purposes of the show. >> Martha Tatarnic: And is that a definition that you give out on one of the episodes, or that is sort of built into the each episode? >> Alexander Lang: The opening episode is where I describe. In fact, in the opening

episode, I talk about Mr. Rogers. Uh, I just lay it out of kind of what we're here to do, and I define it for people and talk about what Kokoro is meant to be and what we're trying to do. So that. That's like the opening pilot is really trying to do that part of it all. Ah, right.

>> Martha Tatarnic: So, Alex, I've gotten to talk to you a couple of times now, and, uh, both on this podcast and some conversations offline, um, I feel like there are themes that keep coming up in our conversations and in the work that you're putting out into the world. Um, I think that there's a lot around, uh, you know, what faith looks like for the modern person. Um, that word beauty keeps coming up. And beauty as a

connection to the divine. Do you feel like Kokoro is a building of these, you know, recurring themes? How does that connect to those recurring themes that you keep coming back to? >> Alexander Lang: Yeah, I mean, for me personally, I feel very fortunate that I have a background in film, uh, the way that I do, because, uh, when I decided to create the show, you know, most people when we're talking about social media, they film stuff on their cell phone.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. >> Alexander Lang: Uh, and for me, what I wanted to do is I wanted to create something that had some artistry to it and that felt, um. Because, I mean, the truth is that it's really me speaking into a camera for the most part, for. For most of the show, uh, and that can get old very quickly. So to me, I really wanted to make it so that there was some beauty inside of it. Um, and so for me, as much as I could when I'm filming the thing, um, I

wanted people to see it and be like, oh. I want it to be striking in enough that it was different than what most people see out there, that it's close to film, but not quite. So it's kind of like this in between. And so we do a lot of shots that are. That are very intentional around things. So I did. I'll give you an example that I just really like. I just edited the fourth episode, which is about curiosity. And in the segment where I'm doing the tactile thing, I'm doing

painting. But at the same time, while I'm painting, I'm talking about Leonardo da Vinci, who was known for being this super curious guy, uh, who. And that's. And it's a big reason why his paintings are so incredibly beautiful is because he, he managed, through his curiosity about the world, to learn about, like, physics of light refraction and, and uh, how to, like, make really deep saturated colors. He, you know, he would exhume bodies and like, cut them apart to learn about musculature.

So while I'm painting, you're seeing in the same room at the same time his paintings projected on the wall. Which, of course, my paintings are horrible, like little kid versions of paintings, but there's a

contrast to them. The point being that there's this really kind of beautiful resonance between them that it gives you this moment of like, oh, my gosh, like, this is really, uh, it's like a beautiful way of going back and forth rather than me just sitting there and being like, well, let me tell you about Leonardo da Vinci. Right?

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. >> Alexander Lang: Like, there's this moment of you're kind of seeing them go back and forth and then there's really beautiful music underneath it. And so my hope is, and I don't know if it'll happen, but my hope is that there are moments where people will feel that through the combination of writing, creative camera shots and music, that they encounter something beautiful. And that is a touch of, oh, I feel that divine inside of me. And so that, uh, I

mean, and I don't know if that's going to happen. Like, I don't know if that will occur, but that's what I'm aiming for. Uh, the show itself.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. And, you know, I have to say, Alex, like, over the course of getting to know you, I just have so much appreciation for the level of detail and, um, intentionality that you bring to all of the different media that you explore, whether it's your writing, whether it's, um, kokoro, uh, whether it's podcasting, um, I just feel like you are so attentive to those details that actually make something pop with beauty and can sort of catch somebody off guard.

Um, and I think that being caught off guard, whether people have the language for it or not, is, uh, a connection to the divine. I really do. So let's take a break and we're going to come back for some closing questions that are custom made for you, Alex, because we've talked enough that, uh, I know some of the things that you might be interested in wrapping up with. >> Alexander Lang: Thanks. Looking forward to it. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome back to the Future Christian podcast.

And we are going to close out with a couple of questions These are usually our rapid fire questions. Um, but because we've had Alex on the podcast before, have custom made just a couple of questions that we can ask each other and uh, builds on some of the things that we've talked about over the course of several episodes. So Alex, what is an important movie or TV show? I guess other than Mr. Rogers neighborhood? Because we've already talked about that.

Um, uh, that would be a touchstone of faith for you. >> Alexander Lang: Most recently, definitely the Bear. I don't know if you've seen that show. >> Martha Tatarnic: I have not. >> Alexander Lang: It's about a restaurant opening up in Chicago. But oh my God, it's like, it's, it's, it captures so many different aspects of life. So talk about wounds. Everyone in that show is wounded in their own unique way. Um, but how they love each

other in the show is really beautiful. Uh, so it's about, it's a show that, where everybody is trying to find their best self and they don't entirely know how to do it, but with each other they kind of start working towards that. Uh, and the question is, are they going to be able to get out of their own way? By the way, it's one of the most beautifully shot shows I've ever seen. I mean it's gorgeous cinematography, so I can't recommend it enough.

>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, I have heard a number of people that I like to listen to talking about the Bear, so I feel like you have, um, just confirmed that this is actually something I need to get on watching. >> Alexander Lang: Yeah, it's a good one for sure. What about you? >> Martha Tatarnic: Well, I think I'm going to pick Hamilton, which I realize is also or primarily a stage

production, but I haven't seen it on stage. I've only seen it uh, on the Disney platform, the recording. Um, and there's just this profound moment of Hamilton, Alexander Hamilton having really messed up and then losing a child. And in the midst of this just gut wrenching grief, um, there's this experience of forgiveness and grace and it uh, and it just gets articulated in such a beautiful way. And I'm always such a sucker for music, being part of

how, um, things are communicated. And then, you know, the show ends and um, you sort of wonder whether it was about Alexander Hamilton or whether it was maybe about his wife and some of those other voices that um, that we otherwise don't notice or forget to tell some of these stories. There's just like some really cool points in that story that uh, flip the narrative and um, just say profound things to me about forgiveness and grace.

>> Alexander Lang: Yeah, it's an amazing show. I've seen it live. It's fantastic. >> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my gosh, I'm jealous. Okay, what about a signature song? What, uh, would be a song that you would kind of use as, uh, an explanation of what this is all about, what we're all about. >> Alexander Lang: So I think that changes depending on where I am in my life. But right now, I would say the song that does that for me is Together by Nine Inch Nails.

Which I know will sound strange, but, uh, if you remember Nine Inch Nails from the 90s, they were, like this really, like, heavy band. But if you. But I don't know if you followed Trent Reznor's career, but he has teamed up with Atticus Ross. They've won two Academy Awards for the film scoring. I mean, they're brilliant artists. And so the two of them did a Nine Inch Nails album back in 2020, and the track together was actually used as the background music for the first episode of

season three of the Bear. And, uh, that episode. That opening episode, like, blew me away. I could. There was probably 20 words of dialogue in the whole episode, but this song was the backing track to it. And I've rarely been transported out of myself like that before. The only comparison I have is Terence Malick's Tree of Life. Um, so I was definitely crying a lot when I got to the end of that episode of the Bear.

Um. Um. So honestly, that song could be the backing track for all of life for me, like, if I. If I wanted to be. So I. I highly recommend that. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, I'm gonna check it out immediately. And, yeah, I think that tears are a really good sign that something important is happening. >> Alexander Lang: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. What about you? >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, again, like, it. It can depend on, uh, the day and the

time. And it's really hard to narrow down one song. But I would say that a song that I keep coming back to is Jubilee by Mary Chapin Carpenter. And, um. Yeah, to me, it. It speaks of some of those things that we've been talking about today. Like, it talks about wounds and it talks about healing, and it. It talks about that. That search for something that is sometimes hard to name. Um, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna say some of

the lyrics. Cause I can't help myself. But, um, one of the verses says, I can tell by the way you're searching for something you can't even name that you haven't been able to come to the table. Simply glad that you came. And when you feel like this, try to imagine that we're all like frail boats on the sea, just scanning the night for that great guiding light announcing the Jubilee. Wow. >> Alexander Lang: It's beautiful. >> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I love sort of the.

To me, I hear Christian imagery in the table and the jubilee and the guiding light. Um, but it's poetic and I think universal enough that people can just be sort of struck by the. The feeling of understanding what's being said. >> Alexander Lang: You know, for sure. For sure. Now that's, that's, uh, that really hits it quite well. >> Martha Tatarnic: All right, well, thank you so much, Alex.

And, uh, do you want to give our listeners, um, just any places where they can find you, engage with your work, follow up on Kokoro. >> Alexander Lang: I'll send over the YouTube channel link so that you guys can post it in the show notes. But there's going to be a lot of things. I'll have it on restorative faith as well. So it's. So there's going to be a lot of ways that I'm going to try to get it out there. And, um, the first, the first episode debuts, uh, September

18th. And, uh, then it's going to be every Wednesday from that point forward for the next 12 weeks or so. >> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, good luck and thank you so much. We always close with a word of peace, so may God's peace be with. >> Alexander Lang: You, Alex, and also with you. Thank you. >> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate

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