Dustin Benac on Adaptability, Authority, and Future Church

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Dustin Benac to the program. Dustin is an educator, practical theologian,

and organizational strategist. He teaches at UH Baylor University's George W. Truitt Theological Seminary. As the co founding director for the Program for the Future Church, he has supported and studied communities of faith who are navigating transition and uncertainty across North America. Prior to his appointment at Baylor, Dustin was a postdoctoral associate with Kate Bowler and the Everything Happens Project at UH Duke University. Dustin is the author or editor of

multiple books and articles. His latest book, Adaptive Church Collaboration and Community in a Changing World, explores what it takes for communities of faith to navigate organizational change. An accomplished speaker, teacher and fundraiser, he has worked with congregations and researchers across Canada, the United Kingdom, New Zealand, and the United States. He is a graduate of Duke University with a Doctor of Theology and Master of Divinity degrees and

Whitworth University. Dustin lives in Waco, Texas with his wife Casey, their three kids, and a lab, Lila. A reminder before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email@, uh, laurensonatemediapro.com with comments, questions or ideas for future

episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern the future of the church. >> Loren: All right, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. And I'm pleased to be joined today by Dr. Dustin Benac Welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. >> Dustin: Thrilled to be here. Love what you guys are doing and delighted to have a conversation today.

>> Loren: Yeah. And, uh, shout out to Martha, who's not recording with us today, but a, uh, vital member of the podcast. Dustin has connected with her in other contexts. So, Martha, uh, appreciate your work and support and, uh, for listeners, as you're listening to this Martha, I guess I'll tease. Martha will be coming out with a winter season and then we're working on a really good interview actually right now as we're

recording this too. So excited to tease that m. So anyway, I don't know when that'll come out, so I don't want to give too much details, but Dustin, uh, thanks for being here. Anything else you want to say about yourself? >> Dustin: Yeah, I would say, um, you know, I am made up of the people, people that surround me. Um, so I'm certainly. We're all more than our professional selves. Um, so love, love, uh, being a dad. Grateful for my wife and life partner Casey.

Um, and I love being on the river. Uh, you know, those are the things that nourish, um, enrich and feed my soul and am really grateful, uh, for those parts of my life, even as I'm grateful for the things I get to do as a creative and professionally in this space as well. >> Loren: What's the river, uh, in Waco, is it? >> Dustin: Well, there's a river in Waco. Um, I, uh, grew up spending some time in southwestern Colorado. Um, I, uh, love the mountain rivers,

so. Love the small streams, chasing trout, getting high up in the mountains. You know, those are, those are the spaces that, um, just bring me great joy. Uh, and it's been fun as a, as a dad to start taking my kids to those rivers and teaching them how to, how to walk in the waters, explore, um, what's possible, and, um, also, um, chase what's around the bend, which, which I think is part of the work of, of futuring is chasing what's around the bend.

>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, that's. That's a good way to say it. Share if you would, just a little bit about your faith journey, what that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today. >> Dustin: Yeah. So I was raised, um, in small town Texas, where, um, religion runs in the water. Um, and the only thing that competes with religion is Friday night football. >> Loren: I was just gonna say that. >> Dustin: So it's a beautiful context, also a really, ah,

complex context. Raised in, um, a family of faith. And I'm really grateful, uh, for the way, um, my family nurtured faith. Um, it was a space that was open to questions and curiosity. Um, and I had a lot of questions. Questions about faith, questions about discipleship, questions, um, about what it looks like, uh, to live a life following Jesus. Um, came to faith, um, as a young kid, but as I think Wesley would say, found, um, myself encountering, um, faith again and again and

again. And it was part of that ongoing encounter that, um, actually took me out to the Pacific Northwest. I, uh, was, um, 18, loved the mountains, wanted, uh, um, A great adventure. And also felt like I could ask another type of question on the other side of the Rockies. Um, did undergrad at Whitworth University in Spokane, Washington. And uh, that was a space where I was able to see and explore the life of faith beyond, um, small town Texas and

uh, the structures of Christendom. And then over time, uh, I've learned what it means to um, be a disciple and pursue the life of faith, um, into adulthood. And I found that um, that is work that takes place in ordinary spaces in everyday life. And that's really the meat and substance of faith for me today is, uh, ordinary, everyday faith and practice. Still lots of questions, but trying to chase out those questions in the ordinary everyday spaces.

>> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate that point you make about, you know, faith in the ordinary. And every day, what is, um, something that's meaningful for you in that ordinary every day that helps sustain you? >> Dustin: Yeah, I mentioned my kids already. You know, um, I think raising kids is part of discipleship for me. Uh, I spend um, some of my days as an academic, as a scholar, as a teacher, um, as a systems, um, thinker and systems leader, kind of working at a level of

abstraction. Um, and then I find that m. My kids, we uh, have, uh, age six and two. Uh, raising kids, I think, has been a practice of discipleship where it not only gets me close to the ground metaphorically, it literally gets me close to the ground physically where I'm on the ground, you know, building, playing with trains or kicking a soccer ball or coloring with my daughter. Um, and those are the everyday, ordinary things. So I think that that grounds me, uh, relationally, personally.

Uh, you know, the other thing that grounds me physically, um, and mentally is, um, running. So that's like. That's part of my discipleship practice. Also part of self care is I have kind of a threshold of how many miles a week I need to run. Um, you know, I'm getting older, I'm getting slower. Um, but like, that's still part of what it means for me to be faithful is to take care of my body, um, and to run and running. I can

pray. Uh, and then the other practice that has, um, been part of my life of faith for, um, more than 20 years is the practice of craft, of writing. Uh, whether it's journaling or writing or trying to craft poetry, um, the work of writing slows me down and draws me into, um, the work of the words in a way that I can pay attention to myself, pay attention to the world and pay attention to what God might be. Inviting me and others to do.

>> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that about raising kids. That's been a point of contention right. In this political season. Well, I just think, you know, obviously there's some. And I'll be generous and generic somewhat, you know, there's some who deride not having kids. I think there's also this kind of context that I see a lot, like, why would you have kids? And I certainly don't want to tell anyone that they

should, like that having kids is a must. But I think for me at least, I think something that is fundamental about having kids and I think is a good about having kids is you learn life is not about you. You learn that your life is not meant to be centered around you. I mean, that's one of my fundamental beliefs is I, uh, think as a Christian that our life is not meant just for us, for our. My own purposes. And I think having kids

is a great way to kind of de. Center yourself from yourself being the center of your world. And obviously, like, we don't want to. You and I both have probably seen kids or families that have kids thinking kids will solve their marriage initials or wounds.

Um, but I'm also thinking, like, I think having kids is a great way to, uh. Like you said, uh, disciple. >> Dustin: Yeah, yeah, I think that's exactly right, Loren. And, um, I also think it brings a lot of humility. At least I think there's ways of thinking about and pursuing the life of faith where,

um. Particularly if you're a professional Christian of any time, whether you're a pastor or a priest or professor, where we have these concepts, uh, and these abstract ideas that guide the life of faith. >> Loren: Yes. >> Dustin: Uh, and I think the work of raising kids is a great joy and a great challenge, and it brings a lot of humility, um, because I get it wrong more times than I get it right. Um, um, my kids bring all sorts of wonderful puzzles.

And then as we're thinking about passing on faith to the next generation, it requires thinking, um, and praying and working to care, um, for my, um, children, but also others children. I think that's part of the life of discipleship, is supporting the future of faith, not just for my kids, but for your kids and others kids and other generations. Because I think that's part of the life of faith is caring for the future of, uh, our children. And that means all of our children.

>> Loren: Yeah. All right. We're here to talk with Dustin today about his book and really some. Some finer topics in the book. But Dustin is the author of the book Adoptive church, or, excuse me, adaptive church. Collaboration and community in a changing world. So before we get into kind of diving into some finer details, why don't you just talk about the book, the goals, the aims, all that of the project.

>> Dustin: Sure, I'd love to. Um, so first, uh, the work of research and the work of futuring the church is always contextual and local. So I want to say a little bit where the book is located. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Dustin: And then talk a bit more about, uh, what I was trying to do with the book, what I learned along the way, and what I think the consequences. Uh, the book is based in the Pacific

Northwest. Uh, and the Pacific Northwest is a region of the country where there's historically a marginal position for religious organizations and also, um, a history of religious innovation and entrepreneurship. Um, as one person I talked to in the region shared, um, innovation is in the water we drink. Uh, very simply. To be a person of faith requires, uh, being innovative, being collaborative, uh, being contextual, and also being rooted in the history of Christian

faith and practice. Sociologists, uh, of religion have identified the Pacific Northwest as a laboratory to learn where Christianity and North America is going. Uh, so it's an ideal context to think about, uh, current trends, future trends, and also potential models that can support the future of faith on the other side of Christendom. Um, there are really kind of two key objectives,

uh, in the book. Uh, first to document, um, and learn from emerging organizational forms in the region, uh, one of which I call a hub. And we'll talk more about that in a minute. Um, and that's kind of the descriptive component of the book. And then the constructive aspect of it is to think with and beyond these innovative faith leaders about the theology and the practice that guides their work, that guides their ministry and that guides their life. Um, of faith. Uh, I talk

about the, uh, practice of collaboration. We talk about authority, uh, we talk about context, and we also talk about the sense of possibility. Um, and this is, I think, particularly important because there's an abundance of anxiety right now as religious, uh, organized religious life is changing. But one of the things I saw in the Pacific Northwest is really a sense of possibility.

Possibility for faithfulness on the other side of Christendom, possibility for vitality in local communities, and possibility for, um, the reality and possibilities of God to be encountered in new ways and also in the existing forms, congregations and practices that have guided the life of faith. >> Loren: Well, I'm encouraged to hear that. If anything to hear. I mean, I think so often in this Christian space, everybody is just doom and Gloom about the future. So that's refreshing.

>> Dustin: Yeah. And we need to tell the truth. I mean, there's a whole host of complex challenges. The landscape is changing. Uh, we need to tend to the grief, the loss, the anxiety that is in our congregation. So I'm not trying to dismiss that. Um, and I also think we need to consider if we're looking in the right spaces, um, because, uh, there is vitality,

there is hope, but maybe not where we're looking. I, uh, remember, uh, when I was getting ready to go out to the Pacific Northwest, was in wonderful small town Texas church. And I had this wonderful kind of mother of the church walk up to me. I was getting ready to go to college and he said, dustin, I know you're getting to go. You're getting ready to go out to the Pacific Northwest. Um, and as you go out there, better look out for the liberals. >> Loren: Right.

>> Dustin: I didn't know what she meant or what she was concerned about, but there was this perception that somehow you go to the Northwest to lose your faith. Um, and what I found is actually vitality of faith, creativity, hope. >> Loren: But. >> Dustin: But people just weren't looking in the right spaces. >> Loren: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. That's a fun story. Uh, so let's dive in a little bit. Just talk about. You

use the. Of hubs and networks throughout as a new kind of ecclesial model, as I understand it. So talk more about that. >> Dustin: Yeah, I say the first thing I'd say, Loren, is this is both new and very old. M. The life of faith has been networked and connectional, um, from the beginning of the church. Um, there's a whole section in, uh, my book about

Luke Acts. Um, and part of that is trying to actually ground this networked form of the life of faith within, um, the historic story of the church. Um, so even as part of the work I'm pointing to is something that is new and emerging. Uh, it's also, also very old. So, uh, I want to

be mindful of that. And we could point to moments of decisive transition, um, in the way people of faith have organized a common life where connections and networks and encounter was the site to discern the new things that God was doing in our communities. Um, and I also think there is something new bubbling up in the Pacific Northwest and all around the country.

I talk about these as hubs. Uh, and by hubs I mean it's neither, ah, uh, excuse me, neither a megachurch nor a denomination, um, but it's this densely networked organizational form that anchors religious life within a particular community and facilitates these webs of connection across a broader community of faith. Um, the two operative verbs there are anchors and webs. Um, hubs anchor the life of faith in a particular locale and geography. I think the future of faith is increasingly

local. So hubs are rooted. Hubs are grounded. They're indexed and connected to a particular community. Maybe it's a neighborhood, maybe it's a city, maybe it's a region. Um, but it's rooted in the soil, it's rooted in the ground, it's rooted in the places people of faith inhabit. And it also facilitates these webs of connection across a broader ecology of faith. It connects congregations to nonprofits, to social enterprise, to entrepreneurs, to activism, um, to educational institutions.

And these hubs are these dense networks that facilitate these webs of connection. Um, that's what I mean by hubs. Uh, and one of the striking things is that other people are diagnosing and naming something similar. Um, you know, Ted Smith has talked about in his book the End of Theological Education, how there's a transition in the way people gather from these voluntary associations, um, to authentic individualism. Um, the work that Ted's doing and the work that I'm doing are very similar in the

descriptive and diagnostic work that we're doing. Yeah, he's saying the way people organize the life of faith is shifting. It's shifting in fundamental ways after being fixed, um, for roughly 200 years. Um, Bob Smintia, his book Reorganized Religion, is doing the same thing. He's diagnosing that the way people of faith organize is changing. But it doesn't mean there's any less faith. It just means people are organizing in different

ways. And I think part of the ways people are organizing are as these hubs. Um, this is what denominations used to be. This is what denominations can be. This is what congregations used to be. This is what they can be. But we have to understand that the way we organize is changing, the way people connect is changing, and the way we pursue a common life of faith is changing as well. >> Loren: Yeah, I think that leads right into what I wanted to talk to you more

about. Also, uh, reference for our listeners. I do have an episode back with Ted Smith, so be sure and check that out. I'm also thinking, I was just listening yesterday to Tom Ranier, who talked about, I think anecdotally more so, but him and his son. I forget what their podcast is about. They were talking anecdotally about how they think megachurches are going to be the ones that face the Biggest decline from baby boomer, uh, that generation

going away. And he was making the point also that there is this localized trend. So it really speaks to what you're saying as well. But, uh, I want to mention the organizational changing norms and as I was reading the book and I want to recommend for our listeners there's a lot more in the book he discusses to check out about hubs and networks. But I kept

thinking around this trend that you mentioned with Ted Smith examines and these newer organizational trends. For me, the question of authority has um, come up for me again and again and you addressed it directly in your book. So I want to just dive into some of that and maybe let me start this way. As I think about like Ted Smith has written about, uh, I'm certainly thinking Nandra Root has sort of explored this broader theme as well in his work.

And I think like even I had a pass interview with Scott Thumma who we kind of talked about this. Like I asked Scott Thumb, I think what is like the new, what's going to be the new organizational model of church or something that, and he's like the individual. And I think about this when I think about Instagram, like who's the guy? Steven Furtick for instance. And certainly the mainline doesn't see this quite as dramatically as evangelical non

denom spaces. But it seems like even in liberal progressive Christian spaces there is this like centering of individuals which does a lot of good because they're able to have a big reach and impact. Um, and I'll frame it from this way, like I'm ordained in a mainline denomination and as part of that maintaining my ordination status, I have to submit to regular reviews and trainings and on and on the question of again, authority. Who has authority? How do they keep their authority?

This is a loaded question and I'm giving a lot here, so I'll stop talking and respond to what resonates with you there. >> Dustin: Yeah, I think it's a meaningful and powerful question and one that we need to ask and need to continue asking. I appreciate that you're asking it in so many different ways, Loren, because it really matters. Um, and I think that the first thing to say is we uh, have to tell the truth about the way authority has

misused, been misused and gone wrong. So I think that's part of the moment we're in for communities of faith is we have to tell the truth. We ah, have to tell the truth about the ways authority has been misused and the many, many reasons, um, individuals rightly distrust the use of authority, particularly in religious spaces. Um, that doesn't mean authority isn't important because authority is still essential.

Um, but we have to reconsider, uh, the exercise of authority, accountability for authority, and the role of authority within the broader institutional structures. Um, um, I think about authority, uh, through the metaphor of carrying the flame. Um, in each of our communities, somebody needs to carry the fire. Um, fire gives warmth. Um, fire is something that allows us to gather, fire allows us to cook meals. Um, it's also something that if it's misused, it can destroy our communities very,

very quickly. I mean it's, um, you know, we're coming on the tail ends of forest fire seasons across the West. Um, and we know that a single spark can decimate a forest, that it took hundreds of years to build. I think it's the same thing for our religious communities, the misuse of authorities. When the fire is set loose, um, in a destructive way, it can destroy communities, it can destroy institutions, it can destroy the life of faith, but it doesn't mean we don't need

it. Um, and I think we see the need for authority, particularly in times of a crisis, because that directs activity, that directs attention and that creates the container in which people of faith are able to find the meaning, to navigate uncertainty and take the next step. >> Loren: So let's let me explore some more direct questions here because I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about like often there can be, I think a question. There can almost be this sort of.

And I think especially in our context, right, where we're so individualized as a, broadly speaking, as our culture, there can be this real, like, why is there the need for authority? Like authority is either oppressive or unnecessary. Um, but you point out in the book that, you know, the role of authority seems to vanish during times of stability, but it's needed during a crisis. And

I mean, I think if anything. Right. Like that was evident during COVID When Covid happened, people wanted someone with some power to talk and to give some answers or at least to start talking into a microphone. Mhm. How does that. I think that's the biggest question when I think about, with churches. And I'm kind of just going to talk openly here. When I think about churches I've led, where there's been some sort of crisis, like a denominational church doesn't want anything to do with the

denomination. But then when BLEEP hits the fan, it's like we want somebody who has some kind of cred to come talk to us and tell us what to do. So how does that work then, in these, These decentralized hubs, when a church runs into trouble, like, who do they call? How does that. Where do they even start? >> Dustin: Yeah, yeah. Uh, I think there's two ways we want to think about this.

Um, first, we want to think, uh, about what's the relationship between individuals and institutions, particularly in times of crisis, because that helps us, uh, clarify what's the role of authority. Um, and there are three typical ways to think about institutions in times of crisis. One, institutions, um, are across. They're, um, a challenge to bear. Third, second, institutions are a catalyst. They, um, support, uh, the new things that are emerging. Or third, institutions are

a container. Um, and, um, I think institutions in times of crisis are actually a container. They create this holding environment. They create this space where individuals can collectively discern how to organize and direct a common life. Um, and as it applies to these hubs in the Pacific Northwest, um, these aren't deinstitutionalized forms of organizing religious life. They're connected to institutions in a meaningful way. They're connected to denominations. They're connected to

congregations. They're not just happening in forest and open fields. There's still these densely social, densely networked, um, inherently connectional forms of organizing a common life. Um, so as a result, what that means is people turn first to the authority structures that are built into their institutions. But more significantly, they turn to the authority that is derived from the relational connections that they have.

Because I think that's one of the things we misunderstand, is that authority is first and foremost derived relationally. It's not derived professionally. It's not derived institutionally. It's not derived because of the position. It's derived because the way we relate to other people and because of the way we relate to other people. They either can trust us or they cannot trust us.

And what these hubs are doing, they are actually prioritizing relational fidelity and connection and indexing that relational fidelity and that connection to the existing institutional structures that they inhabit. As a result, when crisis hits, they've done the hard work of cultivating those connections so that they can explore the next step. Um, I saw this beautifully, um, actually in the aftermath of COVID Um, I had the privilege to interview several faith leaders in the region, both before

and after Covid. Um, and one of the things, um, I saw is that, um, they said two things. They said, dustin, because we have been practiced in the art of local connection, we have this dense network already in place. So Covid's been hard. It's been disruptive, um, but it hasn't totally upended our life of faith or our communities because we're connected

locally already. Secondly, uh, um, many faith communities said, um, we had cultivated the muscle of innovation, so much so that when we uh, had to pivot, when we had to change, we had cultivated the ability to make changes and exercise authority appropriately so that we can make the

changes our faith communities require. So you do the pre work of cultivating authority before crisis hits, and then when crisis hits, you're able to carry, um, the fire in a way that's fitting, appropriate and supports the flourishing of your faith community. >> Loren: Yeah, I'm glad you went into that detail there, because that was one of the questions I was asking about how is authority accrued now versus in the past. So you're emphasizing relationship is how that

authority is accrued. And I'm going to think specifically sort of to my context, operating most commonly in like a mainline space where there is a real bridged authority structure of again, depending on the denomination, um, districts, um, regions, conferences, judicatories. There's a middle adjudicatory leader often or many middle judicatory leaders. There's national leadership. So I think that's really the

challenge. And I'm going to kind of talk here, and you're welcome to add thoughts here, but the challenge is, I see it for many mainline contexts is they're operating under this sort of old standard of hey, we have the authority because of our position. Uh, I mean, I won't name names here, but I'm thinking of a specific pastor friend I know who's like my military person, never talks to me, has never hardly met me, but is running the show to some extent. How can

mainline leaders. I mean, is it as simple as just like going to visit all the pastors in all the churches? >> Dustin: Yeah, I think, um, you know, there's two things we

want to think about here. One, um, I think we want to humanize, um, the systems, um, particularly these denominational systems we inhabit and um, uh, acknowledge the good work many people are doing because in this moment of denominational transition, uh, there's a lot of stress on our denominational systems, um, and uh, I know many denominational leaders, um, have very, very big tasks just to care for a really complex system that feels stressed for

multiple ends. So they want to humanize that, um, and recognize that, um, there's real good there. There's people that are serving in incredible ways, um, and many days I think they're doing the very best they can. It doesn't mean there aren't practices that we can pursue that make, um, for a more connectional and connected system. And m. I think there's a few

practices that can help us do that. Um, one, um, denominational leaders have to get, uh, close to the ground and be connected to the people they're serving. Um, we are not serving systems. We are serving people. Um, a dean that I know and trust, uh, recently shared a tip on leadership. Uh, and he said, um, I have to spend time with my people. That's what allows me to lead well. And I know, um, denominational leaders don't always have time and capacity to spend with all of their people,

given the many, many things they do. But I think a concrete practice is, uh, to make sure you're spending time weekly with some of the people, um, and making a concerted effort to be close to the ground. Uh, the second thing we can do is we can connect parts of our system across silos. Um, our, um, systems and our denominations are built in a mode where they are intended to operate separately and oftentimes in

silos. And one of the gifts of denominational leaders is they have a view and they have authority to actually connect silos across the systems. Um, and that's one of the key functions they can have, is they actually connect systems and then they give the work away. Um, and that enables the system, that enables the denomination, that enables the connection to flourish separately from them. Um, the third thing they can do is, um, you know, they can, um, they

can be trustworthy. Um, and unfortunately, um, the default disposition for so many people and communities will be distrust towards the system and the denomination. Um, even if there is a flawless record. Yeah, that is just simply the reality. So as a result, I think denominational and system leaders, they have to work very, very hard, uh, to cultivate, preserve and protect trust at all costs. Um, and people will trust you if they see your

face. Use video, show up in person, be visible, because they're going to trust your voice more than they're going to trust a document. You got to close the gap. Um, and then I think you also celebrate the good. That's one of the things denominational leaders can do, is they can be champions. They can celebrate the good work that's happening all over the place. They can shine light on the beauty that's happening even when the system feels

stressed. Um, I know that's hard. I know it's demanding, but I've seen it time and time again. When we shine light on distress systems, new, um, life begins to Bud up and start to grow. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Thanks for sharing that. How then, how then can some of these more traditional organizational forms begin to foster new ways of doing things? I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't in the book the two main examples you referenced, they come from

existing systems? Right? >> Dustin: Uh, existing systems and also very different systems. >> Loren: Okay. >> Dustin: Uh, yeah, I talk about this in the book as, uh, kind of fixed organizational environments and ambiguous organizational environments. You know, the fixed would be, um, kind of more. More like a, um, mainline denominational system. M structures are in place. >> Loren: Right. >> Dustin: There's ordination standards, uh, there's existing

funding partners, those sorts of things. Um, and the ambiguous is more like a church planning network where, um, it's kind of an entrepreneurial religious community where, um, it's working beyond existing systems to build new systems. Um, and I think these provide two different templates for how leaders, um, um, at various levels and in various systems, um, can create space for new things to emerge. The first thing I'd say

is you have to slow down. We are moving at a frantic pace for both reasonable, um, and unreasonable reasons. And the first thing we do is we have to slow down and pay attention. Now, that also means we might need to pray. M. Pay attention and pray. Um, the, uh, second thing, I think we have to do less. Uh, in a moment of anxiety, we, um, can believe the myth that doing more will somehow save our communities, save our congregations, save our systems.

>> Loren: I mean, this was literally every pastor during COVID It was like, oh, I just need to do more. >> Dustin: Exactly. Exactly. And it's literally killing us. It literally is killing us. Um, and we're seeing the consequences. Four years later, really good happened. But also there was, um, some real loss along the way. So, um, we've got to do less. Um, and that's hard. And it takes discernment. It takes time. Um, it takes deliberate attention to think

about what's mine to do. The, um, third thing you've got to do is you've got to stay connected. Um, particularly in a highly polarized and politicized environment. Uh, you have to work hard to stay connected, even connected across meaningful lines of division and disagreement. Um, I'm convinced that the future of faith is collaborative. And it's collaborative across differences and across denominations and across meaningful divisions and disagreements. But it takes work to maintain those

connections. That's the third thing. Um, I think the fourth and final thing is, um, you got to stay local. You've got to listen to what's happening in your local Community, um, and um, not build something if it's already there. >> Loren: Mhm. Yeah. I love how you all have three points. I guess that was four points there, but very nice and concise here for me taking notes.

Um, let me shift gears here slightly here because I've been primarily asking from a mainline point of view and I'd like to think that I do have some evangelical listeners who probably have some resistance to authority, some resistance to organizational trends. You write that authority is an inescapable dimension of social and

organizational life. As we think again about this individualized trend, what would you say to those, you know, like those church planting entrepreneurs, the people who want to go their own way, sell them on why they should. In some respects, I don't want to use it, tie themselves down but you know, make themselves accountable or connected to someone when they may see it as just extra work. >> Dustin: Yeah, um, I'll tell a story that I mentioned in the book. I think it's in chapter six or

seven. I um, had the privilege to learn with, Learned from a um, kind of, you know, international church planner leader, you know, who's uh, you know, spent 20 years doing uh, doing the work of starting new things and leading church planning networks. Um and he said over time,

Dustin, I realized that um, I needed connection, I needed accountability. Um, and my work would be better um, if I went slow with others than fast by myself. Um, so simply I would appeal to the living witness of this one individual, you know, who's done the work nationally, um, internationally and just bears witness to his lived experience that um, he literally says we're better

together. Um, and he's convinced that the way to do that is to be um, connected and accountable and meaningful ways beyond um, that one example, I would simply say that authority um, is an essential and unavoidable property of life together. Um, if you want to cultivate the life of faith in proximity to others, it requires cultivating, it requires exercising and it requires giving away authority. I uh, think you see this in the Book of Acts. I think you see this

throughout um, the story of scriptures. I think you see this um, throughout the Christian tradition. I talk fairly extensively in the book about Bonhoeffer. Um, Bonhoeffer is a really interesting thought experiment about the exercise of authority. Um and for Bonhoeffer, authority is pursued both in relation to existing religious structures, um, as well as relationally. Um, and it's also something that um, can

be misused. Um. Yeah, I think part of the story of Bonhoeffer's life is actually bearing witness to um, Certain misuses and abuses of authority or a failure of certain religious leaders to actually exercise the authority that they do have by telling the truth when the life of faith has been compromised. So, um, I don't think you can get around authority. I think it's necessary, I think it's essential. Um, I think it can be misused in a

thousand different ways. Um, but it's something that we have to figure out how to carry and steward, not something that we can ever abdicate. Um, it's like the fire. It's uh, like the fire we carry. Somebody has to carry the fire. Somebody, um, has to feel the flame. Um, and to do that we have to figure out how to carry it, not if we're going to carry it. >> Loren: I'm trying to remember, Martha had a conversation, I'm trying to remember what episode it was with um, Justin Anthony.

And they explored Bonhoeffer, certainly some more from Justin Anthony's perspective. I think he mentioned Bonhoeffer from his perspective, he could have had more authority. And he said no, I'm remembering from what he said. I'm also, ah, again my mind is buzzing with the imagery of your fire metaphor. Um, I think that's so illustrative of. I'm struggling for words here to put the image

into words. But I'm thinking to your point, there seems to be sometimes this idea like we don't need authority and the fire can just be free. And I think we've seen the dangers of that. Right. Where it's not contained or controlled or corralled. So we might speak. Mhm. Well, the book is adaptive church, collaboration and community in a changing world. There's a lot more, I mean there's a lot more we could have gone into. We've only really touched on a small segment of the book, so

recommend it to check it out. Dustin's work. Um, Dustin, let's take a quick break and we can come back with some closing questions. All right, we're back with Dr. Dustin Benac Thank you for your time. Appreciate the conversation. So some closing questions you're welcome to take as seriously or not as you'd like to. But um, if you're Pope for a day, how about this? How do you want to handle your authority?

>> Dustin: Oh, uh, beautiful. I would, uh, use it to gather people and I think that's one of the beautiful things that um, Pope Francis does is Pope, uh, Francis gathers people and I think that's one of the best, um, uses of authority, uh, is the work of convening and connecting, um, because that Actually gives authority away, uh, and it enables local people to cultivate connection, actually to build relational credibility, um, and do the work of

transformation at a local level. So I would gather as many people as I could in a single day, um, give them a structure of conversation and then give the work away. >> Loren: Yeah. Great, great. A theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life. >> Dustin: Yeah, that's a fantastic question. And I was, uh, thinking about that question this morning. And, um, I want to. Want to do a throwback. Um, I gave an interview, um, when I was 18 for

something. And, um, they asked a similar question. And, uh, for some reason, I don't know why I said Frederick Douglass. Um, don't know what I was reading, don't know what I was thinking. Um, but I think Frederick Douglass again today. Um, Frederick Douglass was a change maker. Uh, Frederick Douglass was, um, a leader in a complex system. Um, and Frederick Douglass was somebody who was able to translate, um, the demands of

witness to his time. Um, and I'd be delighted to learn from his work, his words, his witness for today. >> Loren: Yeah, that's good. Uh, what, uh, do you think history will remember from our current time and place? >> Dustin: Yeah, there's what I think it will remember. And this. There's what I hope it will remember. Good. Um, I, um, think it will remember the, um, impact of COVID Um, I think it will remember a time of political division and upheaval and

uncertainty. I, um, hope it will remember, um, the everyday witness that people of faith have been pursuing in ordinary, everyday, unseen ways and places. I, um, hope it will remember, uh, the vitality. Um, I hope it will remember the, um, unseen, often unnamed church, denomination and religious leaders, um, that are doing the work day in and day out of caring for their people, uh, showing up in hospitals, marrying and burying,

uh, responding to email. You know, these aren't the shiny, verandable, um, celebrity like things, but like, these are things that nourish the life of faith. And I hope history will see and remember that everyday, ordinary faithfulness, um, that is unseen, uncelebrated, and oftentimes unrecognized. >> Loren: Um, what do you hope? I guess you've kind of mentioned it, but. Anything else you want to say about hopes for the future of Christianity?

>> Dustin: I'll just say I'm hopeful. I'm incredibly hopeful. Uh, I mean, we haven't talked much about the work I do at Baylor and the program for the future church. Uh, but one of the things we oftentimes say is we're a harbor for Hope, uh, we're simply trying to create the container and the conditions for people of faith and religious leaders to imagine a hopeful future for the

church and take the next step. So I am incredibly hopeful about the future because the uh, future is bright and there are people of faith doing brilliant and beautiful work all over the place. We just need eyes to see it. >> Loren: Yeah, I regret that we have not had a chance to talk to about it, but I suppose that's opportunity for future podcasts. >> Dustin: Let's do it. Even though, yeah, we have some

exciting things underway. We, uh, have some really good people that we work with, um, and I love, um, to tell their stories. >> Loren: Well, uh, let's take a moment. Dustin has mentioned that the book has a discount code. It's coming to paperback. So share all that. Share about, um, where folks can connect with you. How can they get a copy of the book, all that Jazz? >> Dustin: Sure. Thanks, Loren. Um, like I said, the book

is, uh, just rolled over to paper. Um, so it's been a hardback for two years. Just rolled into paper. Um, and there's a discount code running throughout the fall. You, uh, can get uh, it@, uh, bayloruniversitypress.com and use the discount code 17 Fall 24, uh, for 20, 20% off and free shipping. Um, you can also follow, uh, me and my work online, destinythenic.com on X, on Facebook, on Instagram, um, and also check out the work we're doing at the Program for the Future Church

at Baylor University. Um, this is a container, um, that is trying to implement and institutionalize, um, some of the themes from the book. Um, create space to, um, cultivate, imagine and nurture a hopeful future for the church. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Well, it's been great having you on. Appreciate, uh,

the conversation. Thanks for hanging with me here today and figuring this out. So again for our listeners, Adaptive Church. Check it out. Check out Dustin's work, uh, at Baylor and uh, appreciate your time. Like I said, I always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate

Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website@future-christian.com and find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the POD to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.