Doug Powe on Sustaining while Disrupting

>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church into the 21st century. At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith walk boldly into the future. Now here's your host, Lauren Richmond, Junior. >> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're welcoming Frederick Douglas Poe

Junior. Doug is the director of the Lewis center for Church Leadership and the James C. Logan professor of evangelism at Wesley Theological Seminary. Doctor Poe is an ordained elder in the Baltimore Washington annual conference of the United Methodist Church. His newest co authored book, sustaining while disrupting the challenge of Congregational Innovation, was the number one newly released church leadership and administration

book. Another recent book is the adept navigating between a rock and a hard place. Doctor Poe is also known for his work in wesleyan evangelism with titles like Transforming community, the Wesleyan Way to missional congregations, and transforming evangelism, the wesleyan way of sharing Faith, both co authored with H. Henry Knight III. Doctor Poe is a

forerunner in african american evangelism. A few of his contributions include not safe for church, the ten Commandments for reaching new generations, co authored with Reverend Jasmine Smothers and New Wine, New Wineskins, how african american congregations can reach new generations. He holds a PhD in systematic theology from Emory University, a master of divinity from Candler School of Theology, and a bachelor of arts from Ohio Wesleyan University. Let's welcome Doug to the show.

>> Loren: Uh, all right. Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren Richmond, junior, and today I'm pleased to be joined by Doug Poe. Doug, thanks for, thanks for being here. >> Doug: I'm happy to be here. Looking forward to it. >> Loren: Yeah, glad to have this conversation. So

Doug's, uh, been on the conversation, excuse me. We've had conversations before in the podcast, uh, but share with our listeners just kind of about yourself, um, your faith story, and, um, that information for us again? >> Speaker D: Absolutely. I am an ordained elder in the United Methodist church. I, um, have been in the church all my life. I grew up not in the United Methodist church, but grew up actually in, um, the church of God, um, Indiana, and have, um, gone to all

Methodist schools. Um, so that sort of was my introduction, um, through a chaplain at my alma mater, Ohio western university, to methodism. But really, um, um, sort of like Timothy sort, um, of have grown up in the church. So have that faith walk more than the, uh, sort of dramatic conversion, um, into the faith, but certainly, um, have experienced, um, a transformation of, um, different mentors, uh, throughout my life and pastors who have been critically important.

Um, and of course at a point in time felt called myself to go into ministry and also to get my PhD so that I could teach and hopefully form others. Well, um, I'm currently at Wesley Theological Seminary and the director of the Lewis Center. I love my work, um,

particularly the work of formation. So, um, I look at writing as we'll talk about the book later as a part of that formation where I'm hoping to be in conversation with pastors and their congregations and the work they're doing to make a difference in the world. >> Loren: Great. I got to ask, Church of God Anderson, Indiana, right? >> Speaker D: Yeah. >> Loren: Okay, so when did you find yourself in the Methodist world then?

>> Speaker D: From there it started when I was at Ohio Wesleyan, um, but then officially, really when I went to college, I mean, when I went to, um, seminary is when I officially became a part of the Methodist church in Atlanta, Georgia, when I was at Candler. >> Loren: Share, if you would, just a little bit about. I'm not super familiar with the church of God, Anderson, Indiana.

Uh, can you for me, maybe for our listeners too, but for me, share just a little bit about that tradition? >> Speaker D: Sure. Um, it actually comes out of sort of, ah, a western tradition on the pentecostal side. >> Loren: Okay. >> Speaker D: Um, um, or you could say the holiness tradition. And it is, um, a denomination that, um, is

smaller. Um, I attended, um, my aunt and uncle who had both passed, uh, where I grew up, um, that was their home church, and would, um, often go with them when I was young to, um, the church with them. My mom, um, would take my brother and I, we would go to church with them. And then, uh, when I graduated, I would still often go to what was in my cousin's church, um, that was, um, in the tradition.

So, um, it's a denomination that is mixed, but, um, sort of has the strong holiness roots, um, but really comes, um, out of that tradition of, um, strongly believing that, um, you can be transformed and, uh, hopefully live a life that is going to make a difference in the world today. >> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. Um, what are some spiritual practices or spiritual disciplines that are meaningful for you? >> Speaker D: Probably I'm a little bit unusual. Um,

one of them is holy conversations. Um, so this comes out of Wesley. Wesley, uh, one of his works of piety is holy conversations. And, um, I enjoy just those sort of conversations with, uh, individuals like you or just sitting down and having coffee, uh, with, uh, individuals. Uh, the other, I think that for me is important is, um, like many people, prayer. So that, um, just time to have the conversation with God and, um, make that connection, uh, where you can sort

of, uh, commune. So those would probably be the two most significant practices for me. >> Loren: I thank you for sharing that, and I hope this is a meaningful conversation. I, uh, know in many of the same ways. I think, uh, these type of conversations are, for me, very fulfilling and meaningful. So I appreciate, again, taking the time out to have this conversation. So for our listeners. Uh, Doug is the co author of a book, sustaining while the challenge of congregational innovation.

And I'd highly recommend this book. It's available from fortress Press. I, uh, was fortunate to come across it recently and really enjoy the read. So wanted to have Doug on again to have, uh, the conversation about this book. So I know you co wrote this with, um, another author, if you wanted to share about him, and then kind of how you two kind of came together to approach the book, I'm especially curious about the title. So anything you want to share about the title, uh, I'd appreciate.

>> Speaker D: Sure. Let me start by sharing about Lovett Weems. Lovett Weems is actually the founding

director of the Lewis center, um, well known figure, particularly within the Methodist church. Um, very fortunate that he was willing to co author this book with me. Um, but Lovett, um, has probably forgotten more than most of us will ever learn about leadership. So, um, exciting to be able to work with him on this project. The title comes, um, Clayton Christensen, um, Harvard business, um, school, um, wrote a book called Innovator's

dilemma. Um, and a part of his work was talking about sustaining, um, and disruption in the business world. Unfortunately, he's passed away, but, um, we're really playing off of his work and talking about, um, that sort of sustaining, um, interruption and, um, disruptive innovation in terms of thinking about how it fits within the church world. Of course, it's a little bit

different in the church world than the business world. And that in the church world, you really have to sustain, um, traditions in some ways that you do not have to do so within the business world. So you can't just come completely follow the, uh, blueprint that was laid out by Christensen. But certainly the title is influenced by, um, his work and his thinking as it relates to sustaining and disruptive innovation.

>> Loren: Yeah, it seems like such a paradoxical, perhaps even an impossible task that I think that's if that alone would drew me to it. Uh, so I want to dive right in here to talking about, um, you have a chapter early on on innovating, and you draw three clues about innovation from acts. So share those three clues and then I wanted to jump in a little bit more, but start off with those.

>> Speaker D: Yeah. So, in acts. So three clues that, um, we talk about is, one, you have to sort of think like an outsider. Um, it's really challenging to innovate from the inside. If, um, you think about the book of acts and you think about the story of Peter and Cornelius. Um, Peter has the dream, but he doesn't fully buy into the dream, right, because the dream is really so far outside of the realm of what he has known as a, um,

believer in jewish culture. So it's not until Cornelius actually sends for him, an outsider, that he starts putting the pieces together. So part of what we're saying is that you really have to think like an outsider, that when you're an insider, what we tend to do, and this is all of us, we fall into the trap of discontinuing sort of what we've been doing and the practices that we've been doing. So that's the first thing. The second thing we talk

about is, you got to take risk, you know? Uh, and again, this sounds really simple and straightforward, but the easy thing to do is to play it safe. Peter could have said, you know what? I'm good. I'm not going to go with you all, because, listen, you know, I'm just going to stay right here because I think this is the safest thing for me to do. But you've got to be willing to get outside of your comfort zone and take risk. Um, and that's hard to do because none of us like failure.

But the reality is, if you don't take risk, then on the other side of it, then you're losing opportunities where you could really have a great impact, um, for transformation. And probably the last one, and I've said they all are hard, but this is possibly the hardest, is putting aside convictions. You know, it is tough when I've looked at something, particularly for a long period of time, in a particular way, to set that aside to see the world

differently. I mean, the easy one within the church, and it's still true for some denominations, um, in the church is women in ministry. You know, we take it for granted now in the United Methodist church, but there was a day in time when that was not the case where, um. >> Loren: And the SBC is dealing with this right now. Right. >> Speaker D: Yeah. So putting aside convictions can be really challenging, but those three things we think are really critical and.

And helping to innovate, and if you are able to do those things, it can really help with the process for moving forward with innovation. But as I said, I mean, all three of them together are extremely difficult. Any single one of them is actually a challenge to do. >> Loren: So I have a whole bunch of questions lined up. But Doug, we may not get beyond these three points just because there's so much meet here to unpack and talk through. So first, like

thinking like an outsider. And Doug, I don't know about you, but as someone who's well situated within mainline church yet myself, sort of an outsider, as I hate the word new, uh, but not being a lifelong mainliner, I think there's this, from my perspective at least, there's this real, real, like, um, unfamiliarity and almost like aversion to anything that's outside. Um. How do you counsel churches or leaders, um, to get over that hump or barrier?

>> Speaker D: Yeah, I think a couple of different things are important. First, um, is, um, this acts text is wonderful. Like really read this text and just meditate on this text. So I want to say that up front, but as we think about the narrative of Christianity and we think about that as much as we have these wonderful traditions that are critically important, that things still have continued to

change. And one of the things that we don't think about, Paul wrote the majority of the New Testament and probably was the greatest church planner of all time. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Speaker D: Not a single one of his churches are still around today. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: Right. So that things are going to continue to shift and change because people who are outsiders, who are interested in Christianity aren't going to do it exactly like

those of us who are inside the church doing it. They're going to take the core of the gospel message, they're going to live it out faithfully, but they're going to do so in a way that we probably are not living it out. So what I would say to people is if we could learn to hear, um, their narratives and how they are looking to basically engage and journey with them in that engagement. So it's not that, you know, just to use an example, somebody who wants to start a, um, yoga sort of ministry

and that becomes the way they want to worship. While it may not fit into how we would normally do things, it doesn't mean that what they're trying to do is wrong. Right. That is just different for how they're going to live it out. So I think being able to journey with those individuals can help us to think like an outsider and maybe better, um, engage the faith in a way that we would not do. So now, going to your point, that is really hard to do because we like what

we like. Uh, I like showing up, listening to hymns, doing these various traditions, and following the liturgy in a certain way. So somebody who comes along and says, well, you know, we want to dance the liturgy, mhm. You know, that makes us uncomfortable. So we've got to be willing to say, that may not work for me, but they're going to be able to engage people I would not engage. So how do I journey with them instead of trying to push and say what they're doing is not appropriate.

>> Loren: Right, right. So the next one here is, you know, I feel like these are escalating in difficulty. Right? >> Speaker D: Yeah. >> Loren: Take, uh, risks and tug. Speaking from my own perspective, like, I'm not currently right now in a, uh, ministry, full time church

ministry role. But I know when I was leading congregations in that capacity, the challenge became this self fulfilling prophecy, almost where it was like, because resources were so limited, because failure was such a frightening scenario, taking, um, risks, it became like more and more difficult to take risks. And the stakes seemed like, even with small risks, seemed

infinitely higher. Talk about how churches and pastors and leaders can take risks in these contexts that we're in, when the stakes just seem so high. >> Speaker D: And, uh, it's a really good question and a really difficult question. And you hit on the key piece is resources. Right. That resources are how we often frame the conversation. And I think resources in many cases is why we don't take risk. That the question we ask is how much is it going to

cost? That becomes the frame through which we make the decision of whether we should move forward. I think the help us to really move forward, we have to reframe the questions we're asking. So instead of asking how much it costs, what we should be asking is, does this help us fulfill our mission? M. Right. So if this helps us fulfill our mission, then let's talk about how it helps us fulfill the mission and then be in conversation with

individuals about collaborating or other ways that we can make that happen. But we shouldn't begin with how much does it cost? Because we almost always are going to shut down the conversation and not move forward from that point. But if we talk about does it fulfill the mission? So in that case, if we're thinking about what is critically important is we need a children's choir.

>> Loren: Mhm. >> Speaker D: Instead of thinking about, well, we got to pay for a children's director, we're going to need all this different stuff. And then we say, it's just too expensive. We begin with, if we have a children's ministry, then that is going to help us to continue to have an impact in forming children for their christian journey. And we're going to do this through song, and then we can begin to talk about, well, can we have the current musician spend some of their

time working with the children? Are there other people in the congregation who have a musical background that can be so, I mean, we have to then start thinking about, once we get to that, it does make sense missionately. Then let's start talking about what is available for us, resource wise to make this work. So, uh, I think asking a different question can help us to take a risk. But it's hard to ask that question because so many congregations are experiencing

decline. That first thought is always, how much does it cost? >> Loren: Yeah, yeah, that's helpful. Okay, the last one here, and again, I kind of said here for our listeners, like, these are three hard things. The last one is putting aside convictions and Doug, like, I'll be honest, when I read this, I was like, hold on, what's going on here? Yet by time I got to the end of that section, I was like, man, there's something

here. Uh, because again, you frame it through, through the story of Peter and Cornelius, and he had the conviction, right? He had the conviction that he should not eat, you know, eat these meals, this kind of food. So, man, talk through, like, talk through that for me, again, for our listeners, like, because it just. Yeah, it's challenging here. >> Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I think this one is really tough because, you know, you

think about Peter. I mean, he's been brought up his entire life. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Speaker D: With thinking this is the dietary restriction that is required. And this, you know, and if you broaden the conversation to circumcision, which is the part of the conversation ultimately, that we talked about for the Jews like this, this is what is required. So this is not a small deal. This is a huge deal. Um, so when, um, Peter gets this dream, it has to be just like he's been

hit upside the head by a two x four. Right? I mean, this has got to be like he's thinking, what's going on here? God, this can't be true. So this has got to be really challenging for, for him. And I think the lesson of acts for us is what Peter comes to realize is, while he probably is not going to change his diet.

>> Loren: Mhm. >> Speaker D: It doesn't mean, again, that there are those, the gentiles who do eat differently, but who can't live out faithfully the core of the gospel that has been presented to him, but he would not have thought about that if it had not been for the dream. And, of course, Cornelia sending for him because of, uh, what happens with Cornelius. So putting aside our convictions helps us to see that we may not change because the Jews did not give up circumcision.

But they said, you know what? That is not critical for actually being faithful to following God, and that the Gentiles, that's not going to become something that's required in terms of, at that

time, becoming a person of the way. So I think the lesson for all of us is really getting to, are we creating barriers, almost, that we think are important, but really are not important in the way God may look at it in terms of, can we faithfully follow God, um, and live out our christian journey, um, without some of the ways that we decide this is critically

important and must be done. So I think the story, um, and those, uh, stories and acts really highlight that for us in ways that, I mean, as you say, when you read it, it sort of surprises you. You're sort of like, wow. Like, you know, we can sometimes skim over it, but it's a big deal.

>> Loren: Yeah. So I want to continue to dive in here because I'm just thinking, like, I just heard a podcast from an SBC leader the other day about, I guess they have, as we're speaking, I forget, like, that they have something going on right now in the SBC that potentially will, I think, kick out, essentially, like any SBC church that has women, uh, pastors on staff. I forget the name, the amendment, or whatever is, um. I'm thinking on the other side of

the theological spectrum. Right. Certainly, in your context, you're well familiar with the disruption, the conflict that's been over lgbt inclusion in the church. Uh, so, obviously, these kind of issues. These are people, we'd say, um, on both sides of these perspectives in the SBC or in, I guess, broadly speaking, the wesleyan movement, right. Who feel very strongly have convictions about these issues, whether it be, uh, ordaining women, clergy, or lgbt inclusion.

So let's get real practical here, if you can. What do you advise? What do you recommend when. Because, again, if I hold the conviction, uh, in putting these two issues aside, if I hold the conviction that I grew up like KGB only, right? Like, if I have a conviction, like I was taught, like, MacArthur, and again,

I was kind of a child of the nineties apologetics movement, like, you know, conviction is something you die for. So maybe that. Maybe that. That whole kind of thinking needs to be kind of chilled out a little. Bit. But, you know, I think many people were taught, like, convictions need to be, like, held tightly. So how does a pastor even begin to, um, to guide someone through that process of reevaluation?

>> Speaker D: I think, um, it's important to not undermine people's convictions, um, even if I may disagree with you, if that conviction is important for you. Um, the beautiful thing about Christianity, there are people who are going to hold that conviction where you could faithfully practice. So I want to say that first that it is not my goal to undermine if something is held dearly to

someone. Um, I think it's important that we honor that people are going to disagree with the way that we may think. But I also think that as individuals, we change, and, um, that even as denominations, we obviously change.

Um, so if we go back to, um, women or even people of color within the Methodist church, you know, there was a time when the church split over slavery, and even then, when it came back together, they created in the United Methodist church, um, you know, the central sort of jurisdiction where you had a separate jurisdiction just for African Americans. It wasn't until 1968 when you have the United Methodist church, that it all comes together.

These are not quick fixes. I mean, and that's the piece that I'm trying to get to. You're not going to wake up tomorrow and say, um, um, this is now I'm putting aside. I'm going to do this. I mean, these things take place over a long period of time where people say, you know what? I do see this differently and realize that this probably was not as critical as we thought it was before.

Um, so, going to your question, like I said, I don't think we should undermine anyone's convictions, but I do think that over time, many of these things do change for individuals. I mean, you have individuals today who I don't like using these terms, but are considered more conservative theologically, that they're different from conservatives that were 15 or 20 years ago in terms of, uh, they're not disturbed by some of the things in a ways that others

are. So I think that, um, the thing that we have to be careful of is one trying to force everybody to sort of fit into our box, um, but at the same time realizing that these things often do change over time, but it takes a long time. I mean, that is the struggle and the period for those who are suffering. Um, and trying to get to change can be really challenging while you're trying to wait for that transformation to take place. I don't want to underplay that either.

That's a tough period of time. I think of the words of Martin Luther King in a letter of a Birmingham jail of basically, you know, how long must we be patient? So that period of why you're trying to create that change is really hard. Um, so putting aside convictions, that's why I say I think, can be extremely difficult. But I'm hoping what people can do is sort of like, um, they did in a book of acts of really getting

to. Even though we may see things differently, they were still able to work together. >> Loren: Right. >> Speaker D: They were able to find a way to coexist and for the faith to move forward. Um, that was wonderfully creative, and I think that's the piece we've lost today. We've lost that ability to coexist. >> Loren: Yeah, I was thinking about. I'm just thinking. I'm reminding of, um. Like, I preached a sermon at the United Methodist church I was serving

at in the summer when, um. I think last summer, right. When a lot of the stuff, at least in the UMC, kind of went, um, broke down. And, like, I was preaching on ephesians four. >> Speaker D: Yeah. >> Loren: You know, and I was thinking, like. Like, to me, I don't know, I guess that's the struggle, right. To me, we should be able to say, hey, one lord, one faith in baptism. That's what we agree on. That's what we can worship and serve alongside one

another. But I don't know, I guess that's my conviction. Um. >> Speaker D: Yeah, I wish. I wish we could. >> Loren: Yeah. I certainly appreciate your nuance. And just, like, the. The reality of, like, this takes time. This is a lot of work. It's not easy. Um, and that's why, again, just for our listeners, there's a lot more we're not going to have time to discuss today. That's in the book that I'd really recommend

checking out the book. Um, so let me ask two more questions here, just because our time is really moving quickly here. One of the things I really liked in the book is you talk about the importance of clarity, and I really, really appreciate this because, um, you emphasize the word so that, like, I think if I'm remembering correctly, you give an example of, like, you know, we want to have a youth room, or let's say with your example of,

like, a children's choir. Like, we want to have a children's choir so that we'll have more children in the church. And you say they've stopped too short with that. So that. So do you want to go into more detail there? >> Speaker D: Yeah. This, um, Lovett, um, is the one who really helped coin, uh, this, um, term. So that. And what the. So that really does is provide a why.

So oftentimes, um, just playing off the example we've been using, we want a children's choir, m but we don't answer why or what's the purpose? Right. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: We want a children's choir so that we will be able to shape and form our children in the christian musical tradition. So now we've got the reason behind why we are creating this choir. And when you do that, it helps to bring clarity, um, in terms of supporting the effort that you're trying to do.

When we stop short of that clarity, what it does is

it leaves it wide open, one, for interpretation, but two, it leaves it open where people aren't sure. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Speaker D: What the purpose is behind. Are we just doing it because we. >> Loren: Want to bring in more kids? >> Speaker D: We want to bring in more kids, or are we doing it because the kids we have, we think they're not doing anything? So when you can create the clarity of the why, it really helps then to move forward in a way that you can

get people to say, ah. Ah. Okay. You know, we're going to really help and shape and form our children and the tradition, uh, of the church so that, um, this will help them for their christian journey.

>> Loren: And I think it kind of goes back to two of the things you said earlier here from my notes, because, again, if we're thinking about, uh, children's choir and, uh, if the why is just like, oh, we want to bring in more kids, there's going to be a resource or commitment question, like how much resources, how much time, how much are we willing to commit to this? But if it's like, hey, this is our mission. Like, we really believe a, uh, vital part of our mission together as a church

is to. To minister to the next generation. And this is a great opportunity, we believe, to do that. And it's going to be like, man, I'm all in. Or there's a different commitment level, right? >> Speaker D: Absolutely. I think you've phrased it well, that if you start with the resources, you already are behind the eight ball. But when you start missionally, the,

um. So that really helps you, because it helps people to really focus on how this fits missionally with what we want to do, which then helps you with the resource question. >> Loren: Okay, let's do one more question here before we take a break. Near the end of the book, you talk about why change fails. So share about that here. >> Speaker D: The challenge is you can have a wonderful idea. I mean, just a fantastic idea that makes all the sense in the world.

Um, and people can nod their heads and say, you know what? That's a fantastic idea. Yes, we absolutely should do that. >> Loren: Yeah, I've been there. >> Speaker D: The failure comes then, in the implementation of the idea and thinking about innovation. Piece of this is oftentimes, particularly if it's a disruptive idea, what we end up doing is trying to implement it in the same way

we would a, uh, sustaining sort of innovation. And what I mean by that is, if I want to, um, improve my youth ministry, I probably can do that by one, possibly hiring a youth director or two, coordinating programs that would connect to youth so that they could be more engaged in sort of, uh, their journey. So I can sort of do that because we have the youth now and we can sort of work to figure out how we want to improve the ministry.

>> Loren: Mhm. >> Speaker D: But if I am an african american church in a transitioning neighborhood that now has become predominantly white, and I say I want to reach out and connect with my neighbors, well, I don't have any experience in doing that. I don't know how to do that. So simply using that model of, uh, well, we're just going to do what we always do and just go out and say, well, come and join these things we already do. It's

probably not going to work for us. We're going to have to actually, one really figure out what our desired outcome is, is our desired outcome. To create a

beloved community, a church where we're worshiping together is our desired outcome. You know, just simply to have them be a part of outreach ministry. So you got to think about your desired outcome. I mean, that's critically important. And once you sort of know your desired outcome, you can then figure out, what do I need to learn? So then you begin with the question of learning and not the question of

actually doing. And in learning, that will allow you then to take the step to start moving towards that desired outcome. So the implementation is very different and we fail because we often are, uh, trying to implement an innovation that where, uh, we probably need to think more of it as disruptive, but we try to use a sustaining model and that leads us to failing. >> Loren: Yeah, that's really helpful. Cause again, I'm thinking through your youth group

idea, like, if the. So that is just to bring in more youth kids, that's gonna be like, we're gonna buy more pizza and we're gonna have more fun games and, uh, spiff up the youth room. Uh, but if the. So that is, we wanna bring in more youth kids, so we can disciple them in the faith, and that's gonna be like, well, what does that even mean to disciple kids in the 21st century? Right? >> Speaker D: Yeah, that's right.

>> Loren: Yeah. This is good stuff. So, again, the book is sustaining while disrupting the challenge of congregational innovation. We've only touched, like, really, like, one chapter today, really. So I really recommend, folks, check out the book should, uh, be available wherever books are sold. Let's take a quick break and come back with some closing questions. All right, we're back with Doug Poe. So thanks so much for this conversation. Uh, closing questions.

You've answered these at one point, so since it's been a while, let's just go again. If you were pope for a day, what might that day look like for you? >> Speaker D: If I were pope for a day, I would really love to have people sit down, to have authentic conversations where they really listen to one another. And it's not that my expectation would be that all of a sudden people are going to deeply change their minds or be persuaded, um,

to have different perspectives. But I think today, one of the challenges we have is we don't really listen to one another. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Speaker D: Uh, that we're in this world where the idea is, I've got to get my point out or create the narrative so quickly that I'm not really hearing the other person. So, really, a day where we could really hear each other, um, to me, would just be a wonderful gift, um, for all of us to be able to have that deep listening.

>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good. A, um, theologian or historical christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life. >> Speaker D: I don't remember what I said last time, but today I would bring back my namesake, Frederick Douglass. >> Loren: Okay.

>> Speaker D: Yeah. So, um, I think it would be interesting to bring back Frederick Douglass and be able to talk with him about the ways that he actually would, um, integrate theological themes in many of his speeches, um, and to share with him sort of what has happened since his death, and to get his input into how he now would rethink, um, sort of, um, how he would approach moving forward with some of the

challenges we still face with racism. So it would be interesting to bring back my namesake. >> Loren: Absolutely. Absolutely. What, um, do you think history will remember from our current time and place?

>> Speaker D: Unfortunately, I think the divisiveness, I mean, um, we are in a period going back to where I said, if I were po for the day, about really being able to listen to each other but we're in a period of such divisiveness where we really can't listen to one another, that it becomes sort of throwing jabs, mhm, across all spectrums. Um, and I think unfortunately that's going to be, at least right now, how this period is remembered.

I'm hoping that changes, um, that it actually can be, uh, that narrative can be altered, but right now, unfortunately, I think that's how this time is going to be remembered. >> Loren: Well, let me bring this last question a little bit more local, so to speak. You serve in the United Methodist Church. As we've alluded to, the Methodist movement in America and more broadly speaking worldwide, right. Has undergone a shared bit of, uh, division.

What do you hope for? Whether you want to answer for the United Methodist Church, for the Methodist movement globally, in the states, what do you hope for, uh, this movement? >> Speaker D: My hope, um, and I'll answer it in both ways. My hope for the United Methodist Church is that we can really take this opportunity to refocus missionally on what we want to be as a denomination.

>> Loren: Mhm. >> Speaker D: I think that that is critically important in terms of moving forward for Methodists, and I'm going really broad here, including

m all Methodists. My hope is that we could continue that spirit of really, um, Wesleyan's idea of transformation and the importance of what it means to truly be committed to loving God as we love our neighbor, as we experience the working transformation of the Holy Spirit and share, um, participating in God's work of that transformation.

So my hope is that that spirit of transformation that was at the heart of the wesleyan movement, but continue to be at the heart of the movement for all Methodists. >> Loren: Well, thanks for, thanks for engaging that with me. Um, share, if you would, where people can connect with you. Share. Uh, about the Lewis Center. I know they've got a podcast. You all got a podcast that's not quite as good as mine, right? >> Speaker D: Absolutely. Never quite as good. That's right.

No, we have a wonderful podcast. So one of the easiest ways to connect with me is church leadership.com. Mhm, churchleadership.com. Um, where you will see, um, our Lewis center resources, our podcast newsletter, and the various other resources that we offer. And of course you can go through Wesley Theological Seminary's website and also, um, find me there and connect with me there. >> Loren: Awesome. Well, I really appreciate the conversation.

Again, I want to recommend the books sustaining while disrupting for listeners. Go check it out, Doug. Uh, always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. >> Speaker D: Amen. >> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast. To learn more about Loren or the podcast, visit future dash christian.com. One more thing before you go, do us a favor and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're feeling especially generous, leave a review.

It really helps us get the word out to more people. About the podcast. The Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain arts and resonate media. Our episodes were mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is provided by Paul Romaglet. Thanks and go in peace.