Co-creating Renewal in your church with Rebekah Simon-Peter

>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith walk boldly into the future.

Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today, Loren Richmond Junior welcomes the Reverend Rebecca Simon Peter to the show.

Rebecca is passionate about reconnecting spiritual leaders with their God given powers to co create miracles with the divine. Her award winning group coaching program, creating a culture of renewal, has energized church leaders across the country to reclaim their calling and to grow their ministries.

Rebecca is the author of several books, including forging a new path, moving the church forward in a post pandemic world, dream like Jesus the jew named Jesus, Green Church Green Church Leader guide and seven simple steps to green your church. Her next book is scheduled to be published published October 2024. A dynamic speaker, Rebecca has engaged and challenged audiences around the country. She is an avid hiker, dog mom, wife to Jerry, lover of coffee, and a gratitude junkie.

One housekeeping detail before our conversation begins, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and share future Christian with a friend. Your engagement helps to ensure that these really important conversations about navigating and resourcing the future of the church continue and reach more people. >> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is Loren Richmond. Today I am pleased to be joined by the Reverend Rebecca

Simon Peter. Thank you so much for being here. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Thank you, Loren. It's a pleasure to be here today. >> Loren: Glad to have this conversation. Share if you would, anything else you'd like listeners to know about yourself and a little bit about your background in faith journey. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Oh, gosh. Uh, how much time do we have? So I was born and raised jewish in an interfaith home and jewish mom who actually

just passed away. So we're observing some jewish traditions, uh, but really lovely around grieving and supporting one another. And then a catholic dada. And so I grew up kind of already in an interdenominational world, except my dad was already a lapsed catholic. So, um, my mom and dad had decided to raise us in one faith tradition, and, uh, they decided I'm catholic. But then my mom realized my dad wasn't even going to church so they switched over to

jewish. So all of us kids were raised, uh, in the jewish faith, except my two older brothers who had actually already been baptized. I think it's so funny that I'm the one that actually had a call into the ministry and a relationship with Jesus, but I was not baptized. Uh, we were always reform. I was, uh, uh, really into it. I loved being jewish. I loved all the traditions and everything. And, um, then I had a big God experience which moved me into the orthodox jewish world, where I was for six

years. And then I had a Jesus experience which moved me into being a friend and then follower, um, of Jesus, where I've been for the last 30 odd years. So I had quite the faith journey. And, um, my name is actually part of that. >> Loren: Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Simon Peter. People wonder, why are you Simon? And you married a

peter? Well, actually, when I had this big experience, a, uh, vision of Jesus, a waking vision of Jesus, very jewish Jesus, which is the only thing that would have gotten my attention. Um, a friend of mine said, well, you know, Jesus was jewish. It was like, yeah. She said, well, you know, all the disciples were jewish. And I was like, what's a disciple? She said, oh, you've never read the New Testament? I said, it's not my book. She said, I'm going to get you a copy. And I thought, well,

I'm not going to read it. She got me a copy. I didn't read it at the time, but I did go to seminary. And while I was in seminary, um, I had what we call the call to ministry. And as a part of that, um, I did feel such a shift within me that I thought, the old name doesn't even work anymore. And so interesting, they started to whisper a new name to me. Um, and I had to ask my friend again, hey, is there a guy in the bible named Simon Peter? Because I hadn't read the New Testament yet.

Is there a guy named Simon Peter? She said, yeah. I said, is he a good guy or bad guy? Because I know how the bible goes. Right? Is he a good guy or bad guy? She said was a pretty good guy. Well, that was the name. That was the name that God was kind of whispering to me. And so I ended up changing my whole name to be this reflection of a jewish person who follows Jesus. Simon was a jew who followed Jesus. In the process, Jesus changed his name. So I thought that's just a perfect, um, symbol

for me of the journey that I've been on. So that's where the name comes from. >> Loren: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that deep, personal story. Thank you again for your time as your continuing grief lost your mother. And, uh, thank you just for what an interesting story. Appreciate you sharing that. I'm curious, as you reflect on that, what has been. How has your being raised in the jewish faith, if I can ask this, informed your practice of Christianity today?

>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Well, I'll tell you, it's given me such a deep appreciation for Jesus, um, in many circles, because of bad history, uh, in the christian church, and, I mean, centuries ago, that antisemitism, um, it's just really helped me see Jesus from a new perspective and bring that new

perspective to churches. Like, you know, even this business of touching the hem of his garment, most people think, oh, well, you know, the guy wore a long thing, and he had a hem, and you reach out, you touch the hem. But really, when you look at it, Jesus was wearing, um, fridges, which, um, is traditional jewish prayer shawl. It was more of a garment in those days. And so what she was doing is she was reaching out and touching

his tzitzitzit. And those are the knots and the fringes that each one is representative of one of the 613 mitzvot, or commandments, um, found in the Hebrew Bible. And so when you see jesus in this extremely jewish perspective, I think the main thing that it does, Loren, is it places this story of the New Testament

firmly back in the jewish community. Here's a jewish guy talking to jewish people about jewish ideas, and that's very different than the good christian Jesus against the bad, faithless Jews, which is often, once you take that Hebrew Bible and you put it together with the New Testament, you bind it and you stick it in a church pew, it has a whole different context than, say, the Hebrew Bible does in a synagogue, um, especially without the New Testament. So really understanding the entire.

The New Testament did not exist in Jesus day. All that there was was parts of what we now call the hebrew bible or the Old Testament. So when, uh, who is it? Uh, one of the New Testament guys. Sorry, I can't remember his name. Says, all of this is good for instruction. He's referring to the Bible. All this is good for instruction. He's not talking about the New Testament, he's talking about the Hebrew bible.

So when we see it's a jewish prophet talking to jewish people about jewish ideas, it just changes the whole thing. Now it's been read, it's been interpreted. There's layers, there's glosses, there's droshes, there's revisions, there's resisions, there's all of that that happens in a text over the centuries that shifted. Um, but I do think it makes it extremely interesting and sort of more organic kind of piece, um, when we see it in its original context.

>> Loren: I can't help but think that you mentioned when you went to seminary, you hadn't read the New Testament yet. It kind of brings to mind, probably folks wouldn't say officially they'd never read the Old Testament, probably. But there is that weightedness in many traditional seminaries, where the only thing that really matters is the New Testament and the Old Testament. You might as well not have read it, right?

>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah. In part because replacement theology is so prevalent. And in my book, I know it's not talking about this book, but in my book, the jew named Jesus, um, name Jesus. Um, I just really take on a lot of that, uh, revisionism that's been there in christian history and try to get us back to originals, you know, original looking at things. And my book came out right around the same

time as Amy Jolivine's. I probably shouldn't mention Amy Jolivine in the same, uh, interview here, but I sort of think of my stuff as Amy Jolivine. Light, uh, you know, for people who kind of just want to get the gist of it. She does a beautiful job of going in depth on so many levels. She makes a powerful case with a strong foundation. Um, I look to my own experiences and my own

history and my own studies and learning to, um. To write the book that I wrote, but it came out right around the same time. So it's interesting that that was sort of this opening, you know, in the christian world to take a look at this. Yeah. >> Loren: Yeah. Well, I'm sure, uh, I'm sure the christian faith could use a more accessible. For as brilliant as Amy Jo Lavigne is, I'm not sure how much her work is always accessible, right. To the average pup sitter.

>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Brilliant and fabulous. I've met her. I like her. And even I, uh, had a bit of a hard time working through all the hebrew that was in the book. >> Loren: Well, speaking of books, we're here to talk somewhat about another book of Rebecca's called forging a new moving the church forward in a post pandemic world.

So, before we get too much into that, kind of what interested me when I was introduced to Rebecca was just kind of about her work in the church revitalization space. So I want to hear, just share, if you would, broadly, about that work and kind of what inspires you to want to help churches.

>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: You know, when I had, when I went to seminary, right, way back when I went to seminary, got the call of ministry, started off in local church, I served three local churches, um, in the United Methodist world, I served a beautiful black, primarily black church, a uh, large, sort of suburban, sort of corporate feeling church, and then a smaller rural ish Wyoming church. So those are the three spaces that I served in. And in every place I served. I

loved the people, they loved God, it was clear. And at the same time I sort of felt like um, I was reverend to go and they were sort of holding back and I thought, is it the difference between an adult, you know, sort of conversion experience and being raised in the faith? At the time I thought it was, I didn't understand that later there were some simple personality differences. And so I did a lot of pushing and pulling and trying to get people to do what I thought we were supposed to be

doing. And in the end I thought, you know, I could give twenty four seven, I could give myself twenty four seven. And that's probably what it would take to keep the growth going because there was definitely growth happening in all the churches I served. But I had this uh, suspicion that if I began to withdraw any of my energy, things would sort of slowly, uh, and I hated that idea, but I didn't know how to do it differently, I just

didn't, I didn't know what to do differently. So I ended up leaving local church ministry after twelve years because I was. It's not that I didn't love God, it's not that I gave up on Jesus, it's not that I rescinded my call or anything like that. It's just that I got burnt out. I thought, my gosh, how does a person keep going,

you know? And especially when I found that I pulled some of my big books off the top shelf, you know, and did some more in depth kind of sermons, I got some pushback because it didn't immediately meet what people thought they already believed and should believe, you know, there's all that sort of stuff going on. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: So I got into um, the kind of ministry that I would say is entrepreneurial ministry in the United Methodist Church.

We call it extension ministry, where you're extending the ministry of the church beyond the four walls. So for me as a startup and I was doing basically continuing education for church leadership development. And I started in the area of um, reading the Bible with jewish eyes and then I went to sort of green church because I'd also written books on that. That was part of my background. But I got a lot of calls, um, for leadership

development. And the first thing I thought is, what do I know about leadership development? You know, I thought, well, I better learn because this is what is being asked for. And so slowly, slowly, I began to do the work that revealed to me and the program that I now lead, I've designed and developed, and it's called creating a culture of

renewal. So it's way beyond, um, sort of planting a new church or starting a new ministry, or doing a fresh expression or getting small groups going, even though every single one of those things is important. Refreshing workshops, every single one of those things is important. But this was looking at something deeper because my background was environmental studies. I was used to thinking in terms of ecosystems and sort of how everything works together, right.

Water and air and soil and inputs and outputs and all of that. All of that's part of an ecosystem. Well, there's an ecosystem in the church that, um, has it either be more in the space of, um. We used to call it maintenance versus mission when I was in local. Is a church in maintenance mode or is it a mission mode? But now I would say more, is the church in, um, sort of stagnation or is it in renewal? Is it in decline or is it in renewal and decline? You know, I would look at

numbers, like around worship. I would look at vitality of prayer life. I would look at vigorousness of, um, risk taking and dreaming. I would think about the kind of leadership that's happening. Does everybody have to agree and does there have to be consensus and just enough feelings, or can there be some curious, adventuresome stuff taking place? And, um, so I would think of churches that are in the decline mode or churches that are in the

renewal mode. And when I think about renewal, I think about the renewal of miracles, because when you think about it, what set, uh, Jesus apart from every other teacher of his day? And there were many, there were even other teachers that had disciples, there were traveling teachers. There were many, many interesting characters on the scene at Jesus time. What set Jesus apart? He did miracles. Now, he actually

wasn't the only miracle maker out there, okay? There was honey, the circle maker, and there were some, you know, in the talmudic literature, you can see there were some other miracle makers. But really, the big person that we remember from those days is Jesus. Why miracles? Jesus was all about the miracle. And many of our churches are so far removed from miracles that they wouldn't know one if it knocked on the door, and they're the sort of busy trying to do their own thing and

they operate, Loren. Sort of this, sort of this middle band of predictability and reliability. Uh, and I mean, I get it, I get it. Especially for organizations that are worried about, you know, sort of going out of business. I get it. But it does take us very far from the space that Jesus operated in, which was the miraculous, the unpredictable, the risk taking, the pivot, the about face. Like the stuff you just don't expect. The Bible happens to be full of that, you know, the

metamessages. Hey, what you think is the right thing or what you think, uh, you know, God's going to do, he's probably going to do something

else. That's kind of the meta story of the Bible. But I think Jesus is a perfect, um, living exemplar for us of that. And so what I really am interested in is helping churches get back into the zone of the miraculous, where they're co creating miracles with God. And a lot of times that means moving from sort of being content with having members and doing stuff like that, even from contentment to sort of making disciples to actually advancing to this to apostleship. Advancing from

discipleship to apostleship. Because if you think about it, discipleship, uh, has us constantly follow, follow, follow. And, um, I don't, you know, Jesus even said, look, I'm calling you people because I'm going to send you out. He trained him how to do all this stuff. He sent him out to do that stuff. There would be no even memory of Jesus or of the church if it weren't for those people he called to him that ended

up, uh, being apostles. So I think we're actually called to something even greater than attending or being members, but being advocates, ambassadors, um, authorized, anointed apostles. I know it's so traditional language. Um, and different denominations will hear that differently in the broadest, most generous way possible. When I say apostleship, yeah, yeah. >> Loren: I really appreciate just that framework, that frame of mind and believing,

you know, a miracle can happen. And let's be frank. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Right? >> Loren: Like, many churches need a miracle. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yes. >> Loren: Something we can agree on. So obviously, a lot has happened in the american christian cultural space since 2020, and you're welcome to answer this kind of as much as you're willing to reveal. Like, I'm just curious, like, how are you as a

clergy leader? How are the pastors in the churches you talk to in your book, you write about the so much unprocessed grief. What have you seen that, uh, as you encounter with your work with various churches and pastors. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Well, first, from a personal standpoint, I, as much as anybody, wanted things to go back to normal much as anybody else, didn't want this pandemic to have

broad reaching implications. I remember early in the days, maybe April 2020, there were already big magazine spreads. I thought, how do they know? But, you know, we're never going back. I thought, you know, it's. We're like a month in or two months for three or six. How did they know? And it scared me. I'll just tell you the flat out truth. It scared me. Oh, my God. Because at that time, you know, we were in the sort of shutdowns, and I had a fear that, are we ever going to leave? I mean, I just

couldn't even see past where we were. I had never been through a, uh, pandemic or an epidemic, not personally. You know, I just didn't know what it was going to be like. And I knew that the pastors around me were scared. I also knew that they were really rising to the occasion. Uh, I mean, I think one of the things that was extraordinary was how quickly, like I and many others for years, Loren had been pushing, pushing, pushing, you know, for churches to make some leaps

online giving. And, you know, don't just agree yourself with the building and be willing to pivot, you know, and all of a sudden, overnight, this thing called Covid-19 bing, you know, did it. So tremendous respect for the pastors that were on the front lines in churches that had overnight to figure out how to go online and figure stuff out. So I think in some ways, it was unprocessed grief. Who had time? Who had time to grieve? They just had

to spring into action. And so tremendous, tremendous admiration for the pastors doing that. Um, I do think there was a certain amount of weariness that came after that, just deep weariness. People were overextended. It sort of looked like they were doing nothing, just showing up on a little camera on Sunday morning. But of course, these are the same people who often hear you just work 1 hour a week, which we all know isn't true. So, um, I think that's part of the reason there was

unprocessed grief. I think what I'm seeing now, as I continue to work in this space through creating a culture of renewal and other work that I do with other, um, denominations and leaders, laity and clergy, is that, you know, we're coming back. Churches are coming back. There was definitely a dip. There was a dip in attendance. Uh, surprisingly, not always a dip in giving. I found giving stayed pretty steady. Did you find that? >> Loren: Yeah, the data has shown that.

>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah, yeah, giving stayed pretty steady, but attendance declined. Um, missional engagement declined. Um, connectivity. Yeah, there was online connectivity. But I mean, like, this togetherness, like, all of a sudden, it's perfectly okay to just show up on Zoom. I mean, all kinds of fabulous uses of that. But we have lost something of this togetherness where you can. Touching shoulders, touching the hem of a garment. I mean, imagine that online.

Uh, so, yeah, there's a lot that's been lost. There's a lot that's been gained. And I'm sensing in the United Methodist and in other parts of the mainline world that there's now this readiness to get going again. Okay, let's have a vision. We're ready. Let's take the next step. >> Loren: I hope you're right. Boy, oh, boy, I hope you're right. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: What are you seeing, Loren? What are you seeing?

>> Loren: Well, this is a podcast where I like to hear from others. So I, uh, still have so many more questions asking. We got to get to. So I don't want to delay those. But I am appreciative of your insights and your hopefulness. Um, it's said that Covid accelerated many changes that were coming to

church in America. Certainly you mentioned some examples like the move to utilize online giving, trying to get people out of the building and be more of a, you know, the phrase we all heard a million times, church is not the building. Certainly utilizing more this kind of thing, uh, telecommunications tools for meetings. Not only. Not always does every meeting have to take place around a table at the church. What are some other examples that you've seen of accelerated change coming to churches?

>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Well, Loren, I think, um, one of the toughest things that Covid brought to us accelerated in change was the decline in worship. No. And it was already happening. Um, in my book forging a new path, I write about the three questions people are asking. Um, when do things go back to normal? How do we get people to church or back to church? And how do we do more with less? And the truth is, I mean, 2019, we were already wondering those same things. When do we get

back to the way it used to be? How do we get people back to church, and how do we do more with less? We were already asking those questions. We were asking those questions in 2015 and 2020. And in 2000. Okay, there was a little bump after 2001 that went away, and then we were wondering, how do we get back? How do we get back? Sort of always remembering the good old days. And so I think it did accelerate, um, people's departure from the church and their evaluation. Is this really serving

me? Does this have what I need? And honestly, I think, and I write about this in the book, Loren, about the spiritual but not religious. And, you know, the big exodus from the church. If you read the pew studies or any of those other folks that are tracking religious life in America and beyond, you know, the spiritual but not religious are a big component. The nuns, n o n e s, not n u n s with the nuns and the duns, that that's just a big part.

People believe in church because there. There's something missing from church, or they're just not finding what they're looking for there. And I think that kind of sped it up. >> Loren: Yeah. Well, let's come back to that spiritual growth component. You use the phrase and talked about this, obviously, in the book, the

question of how to do more with less. From my perceptions of really where the american church, and I hate to use this word, industry is going, it seems like the middle sized church is really going to struggle the most. Because when you think about a megachurch or really big church just really has, again, to use an economic term, economies of scale to make things. They're often run

a mini corporation, often. And then in the contrast, a really small, really tiny church can often be sustained by a couple, three families who are just really committed to it. Whereas what used to be the classic 150 sized church, to me at least, seems to be like the most vulnerable because it declines in giving, you know, uh, declines in participation and

then just not having. If they're trying to compete with the behemoth churches, they just don't have the resources to compete with a big musical production or children's programming or what name you. So many churches are facing this real how to do more with less challenge. What have you. What have you offered churches of that medium variety? >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah, the medium range. You had the medium. This is true in women's clothing, too. Um, those

sizes, not really. You can't really count on the sizes you grew up with because now, anyway, that's a whole other story. But it used to be that, uh, the medium sized church was, what, 350? Maybe even close to 500. You know, like 100 to 500. And then, you know, below that was small. Well, now those churches are shrinking, and you're right, they're shrinking down into that

category that we think of as small churches. And, uh, you're right, you know, a couple of families, um, several committees or interest groups, you know, can really sustain in church life. I've really chosen to think about, um, what we can learn from the spiritual, but not religious, because, after all, they are the people that were in the churches that left. So it's almost like we never did the exit interview. And what was really missing for people?

Um, and I say, I write in the book, there are a lot of people who say, gosh, I don't know what I would do without church. And sometimes it's meant to be a dig at people who've left church. How do they get by without in church? Well, anyways, they're getting by just fine because they found other forms of community. But what can we learn from the spiritual but not religious? I think there's so much we can learn, which is primarily, we can bring more spirituality into our churches.

You know, um, I'm all for religion. I'm all for that binding together of community. But what if that was simply the way we gather, you know, some of the, um, traditions. Um, like right now, my family, um, is honoring jewish mourning traditions, and it's bringing our family together in some amazing ways. Do we all believe the same? Nope. Do we all even believe in God? No. Do we all have spirituality? No. But we've got this religion

and these practices that are actually holding us together long enough that some, I can see it happening in my family members. There's some spirituality happening. There's some God awakening moments that aren't happening. So, okay, so let's have religion be what religion is. It's powerful, beautiful container for us. Let's not give up our traditions. We can tweak, of course, but let's have the traditions we have now within those traditions. What is

it? We're actually lifting up and surfacing? Well, what about spirituality? You know, what about that? I'm not saying we give up mission. I'm not saying we give up helping people. But why not fill people? Why not give people the opportunity to deeply connect with a power greater than themselves? Why not give people the chance to have that one on one? The Bible is a record of people's spiritual encounters with God, and then what happened as a result. But we now read the Bible as a, uh, as

a series of morality tales. Do, don't, do, don't. Extra, extra, do, extra, extra, don't. Right. That's how we read it. But what if we peeled away that layer and got back into, oh, here's a series of encounters with God, and here's how people responded and grew spiritually and what they did. Um, so I'm all about helping people really deepen the spiritual power of their churches. And that's individual spirituality, that's communal spirituality. And then there's

visionary spirituality. So this is the good stuff I came up with after I wrote the book. But, you know, individual spirituality, like, you know, I matter. And each of us can have a deep connection, communal spirituality, where the church itself is a spiritual community. We grow spiritually, we're safe to talk about our spirituality, we're safe to grow in it

together. And then visionary spirituality is where, you know, we take this beautiful spiritual connection we have and we envision how can we bless the world with it? Yes, not so much from we have, you don't. We're going to save you a lot of time. That's where mission comes from. But this deep spirituality that inhabits all of us, you know, what can we share? How can we be, how can we let our spirituality expand beyond us?

>> Loren: Yes, what I really appreciate that is I'm convinced that, and this is, um, I'm in debt to the work of theologian Nandra Root on this. But I'm convinced that really what's lacking in so many churches is, like you said, a spirituality. This idea that we come here to find God, because this, uh, is my opinion. And you can push back or disagree if you think so, but I think I. We can find community in so many other

spaces. We can find connection, we can find friendships, um, we can frankly find, you know, social justice movements in other spaces. I'm of the opinion, at least, that I come to church because especially in our modern world, where it can be so hard to find

and recognize God's presence. To me at least, church is a place where I know I can go hear the testimony, like you said, of other people connecting with God, be in a place where I know people have connected with God and be around people who may be experiencing God presence in the moment. Right. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: I totally agree with you, Loren. Uh, no pushback here. >> Loren: And that's why, uh, that's why I really appreciate your emphasis on spirituality.

So you talk about in your book this idea of helping people grow in their stages of faith. And I think as someone who's been really interested in that and studied, or at least unofficially studied church culture, I suppose from evangelical to mainline spaces. You know, if we're going to broadly use James Fowler's least, I'm assuming that's coming on his stages of faith, we would broadly say that like many evangelical churches are in a stage two, many mainliners

churches are probably in a stage three. And it's from my opinion, really hard to create a space where you can have those four and fives feel, I don't know, um, appreciated or welcome, but also, like, feeding that need of that, too. So talk more about that, because that's a broad range of spirituality. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah. So James Fowler, um, is who we're talking about. He's got, what is it, five stages. The first stage is fantasy and reality. That's sort of preschoolers.

Second stage is school age children beginning to understand logic, but they're still thinking about things. Very literally, jonah, you know, belly of the whale. Right. Uh, and then the third stage, uh, synthetic, conventional teenage years. This is where people begin to develop their all encompassing belief systems. And they synthesize what they know from school and their friends and their family and work, if they're working and they're starting to unconsciously

form their belief systems. And, um, they're unaware that they actually have a system and that other people have other systems or other experiences. And, uh, their belief system provides a sense of stability and identity and belonging. And it's, you know, it's important. And trust is placed in individuals or groups that best represent their belief system. And a lot of people stay in that stage, like you said, throughout

their lives. Well, Fowler's fourth stage, he calls that individuative or reflective, and that can begin to unfold as early as young adulthood. But what happens here is awareness starts to expand and the realization begins to dawn on a person. Hey, the way I look at, uh, things is sort of one way among them. And so there starts to be critical exploration of their own system, sometimes disillusionment with their beliefs. And they probably. >> Loren: The deconstruction that's so popular.

>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah, they become disenchanted, they swing to the opposite side. I think that's what happened for my dad, actually, because he was raised in this third stage kind of thing, and he began to think, well, Jesus isn't thinking about every one of my thoughts, and how could God and blah, blah, blah, you know, he just. And he swung the other side. Now, my dad and I have had a number of conversations, and he's actually. He's actually identified as

spiritual. And it's like, whoa, what a big thing. For my dad, he's 88. Okay? So spiritual but not religious is sort of when he remembers that, that's how he identifies. And, um, so what happens is stage three, people think that stage four, people have become backsliders, when actually they're really moving forward. And then the fifth stage, just to give an overview for Fowler. It's called it conjunctive fate, um, sort of midlife. And the limits of

logic are acknowledged. The paradoxes of life are accepted and integrated. And at this point, a person could actually return to the stories of their faith, not have to take them literally, hold science and scripture and spirituality altogether, and sort of, you know, what we call live in the mystery of it all. You know, like, relate to the parts they relate to, don't get hung up on the parts they don't get hung

up on, and they don't have to be in either or. Now, stage six, that's sort of Dalai Lama, you know, Jesus, um, Mother Teresa, rabbis. Zalman, Shachter, shalom. You know, there are people, right? And you've heard it said that the people sort of, at the binnacle, they all relate to each other regardless of the faith tradition. They've come out of much more to each other than any of the rest of us plebeians, right? So how can a church actually, you know, hold space at least

from three to four into five? You know, if we produce this fabulous, right, but, you know, three into four, five. I think it's if we adopt the metaphor or the symbol or the concept or the vehicle of spiritual journey that we're all on a spiritual journey, and we don't berate where somebody is on the journey. If you've ever been a pastor, you know, or any kind of leader, you know that one of the best ways to approach people is not to insist on your way,

because, you know, that's not going to work for everybody. But meet people where they're at, wherever they are, can they move one step forward in their journey, given their beliefs? Can they move a step or two or three forward, you know, on their path? That's. That's how I tried to approach it with people when I came to faith. What would it take for them to move

forward in their journey? And so I think when we really adopt that whole idea of we're all on a spiritual journey, that we can then begin to make space for people in different parts of the journey. And there's plenty of helpful in the Bible, you know, literally spiritual journeys. Um, and then, you know, plenty of stories among. Of Jesus's people. You know, Jesus and the people that, their stories with him. But, um, in the Hebrew

Bible, there's stories too. I just think the Bible is full of those stories of people on a journey meet goddess. The journey changes somehow. They deepen with God, something happens. I mean, that's the whole Bible. So I think we could take that. I don't think it's a hard stretch to take that. And that would create more of a space for people to, um, move in their direction within one congregation. >> Loren: Yeah, that's helpful. I appreciate you sharing that.

I was kind of chuckling internally, too, as you were describing the stages of faith. Those thinking about previous. Well, actually, not as I'm recording this, the last episode that released was the two part episode with, uh, Doctor Elizabeth Schrader Pulzer, who's the New Testament scholar of Mary Magdalene. And it's very much kind of the process she described of her own kind of journey of like, growing up in church, you know, kind of disappearing in her twenties, and then, like, now she's a

New Testament professor. So it is so essential that churches can somehow make space for people when they're going through that three, four, whatever stage. You know, it's such hard work, but important work. Right. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Uh, I think we're pretty good at doing one, two, and three because,

you know, we have preschool, we have Sunday school, we can get to three. I think we just haven't thought too much about how do you help people navigate four and get to five. But I bet a lot of pastors are. I bet a lot of pastors are in five, you know, where they've done the wrestling and they've sort of, in this place of science and scripture, you know, faith and tradition and science and life and, you know what I mean? Like, sort of holding it all. We kind of have to m. This.

>> Loren: Is my hobby horse, Rebecca, so forgive me, but I'm like, it feels like in evangelical churches, it's like they bang on the fores for being, like you said, back sliding. And then what I think happens in mainline and progressive circles is just like, oh, well, yeah, you're fine. That's fine. You can stay a four. So that's why I appreciate. You're like, hey, you're not done yet. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yes. You're not done yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

>> Loren: Spiritual journey. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah. >> Loren: All right, let's do one more question here before we take a break, because I think this is important you brought up earlier, and I don't want to let it go. Um, you mentioned in your book making disciples of Jesus versus

creating church attenders. And I was just listening to, of all things, a southern Baptist podcast this morning when I was walking the dog, and they're talking about, you know, 30, 40 years ago, the culture was you could just open up a church, people would show up, and you'd have a bunch of church attenders you know, uh, even in mainline contexts, there was a, uh, similar reality. Talk about how to make disciples rather than church attenders.

>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah. First off, it'd be fabulous to have church attenders. Right? Like, let's not cast aspersions on the church agendas. >> Loren: Yes, please. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Let's not assume that just coming to church is enough, even for the person who's coming. Like, we don't have to have some agenda, like a hidden agenda. But I think people who come to church are looking to grow, and they're not necessarily looking to just

hop on a committee. I made that mistake. Oh, you're new. Would you like to serve on this committee? That committee? Oh, you're not never coming back. Oh, sorry. You know, I've made that mistake, so. But I think when we can journey with people and really get to know what

their. Their life is about, what are their hopes, their hurts, what brought them to church, what are they looking for that we can find the answers, um, but we can guide them and direct them deeper into the life of Jesus, the teachings of Jesus, the presence of Jesus. And so I think we need to not assume biblical literacy is one thing. And a lot of this now is just really about deeply acquainting people with the life of Jesus. And what did he teach and what are the ways to

understand that? What are the ways to follow in his footsteps? And that moves somebody from simply attending to moving into that space of discipleship. Oh, um, Jesus is my teacher. Let me be his student.

And then, as I hinted at before, Loren, I think that to truly follow Jesus and to emulate him then is to understand that Jesus is interested in sending people out who have agency, who have freely accepted the authority that he grants and the miracle making that he offers, and that we become partners with him in being active agents of good stuff in the world, you know? Um, and that we can be part of the solution in so many ways. And I'm not even presuming that I know what the

solution is. If only we had more of this or more of that. But what if it's just about love and acceptance? You know, what if it was even as simple as that? So I do think there's people who come, wonderful, you know, come, please join us in church then getting deeper into the teachings, understanding the teachings and the ethos and Jesus way of being. And then don't forget that part where Jesus then took those people and authorized them, taught them to go

out. And so part of that going out was deepening their spirituality, not only having the faith of a disciple, but beginning to have the faith of an apostle. And what does that actually mean? And that's actually my next book that's coming out. It's going to be about that. >> Loren: So anyway, well, plenty to tease there. We've only dived into just a little bit about Rebecca's work. Again, this book we've been hinting around is forging a new path, moving the church forward in a post

pandemic world. She's obviously got other books. She's written one coming here in the pipeline. We'll make sure we have links to all that in the show notes, but for right now, let's take a quick break and we'll come back with some closing questions. Questions. All right, we're back with Reverend Rebecca Simon, Peter, and, uh, enjoyed the conversation. So, closing questions, you're welcome to take these as seriously or

not as you'd like to. First question, if you're pope for a day, what might that day look like for you? >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Oh, my goodness. It would mean the first female, uh, jewish Christianity king. Pope. If I were pope for a day, that's like, if I were queen for a day. >> Loren: Yes. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Oh. Um, let's circle back around. I feel like this is sort of. >> Loren: One of those game where I don't.

>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Have the answer right away. >> Loren: Sure. Yeah, that's fine. A theologian or historical christian figure you'd want to meet or bring back to life. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Um, you know, I always think about Martin Luther King junior and I, what a firebrand that guy was and what it would be like to be in his presence for a bit. But I also think about some of the earlier mystics, like Teresa of Avila. Oh. Just to hang out with her.

What would that have been like? Katherine Kuhlman, a, uh, pentecostal female pastor from about, I don't know, 80 years ago, uh, who performed miracles. She was pentecostal. I studied her a little bit when I was early in my christian journey. I'd love to know more about her, you know, what was actually going on for her, I doing that stuff. Um, so those are some of the people I'm interested in.

>> Loren: Yeah. Related. I can't. I've been reading. It seems like Amy simple MacPherson keeps coming up and what a figure she was. Holy smokes. Yeah. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: She was another person I studied. So, interesting. >> Loren: Yeah. What do you think history will remember from our current time and place?

>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Politics. So, politics, I think, uh, in many ways, um, churches will be seen as a corollary or subsidiary of the political scene, not as the leading light. Doesn't mean we're not doing very good work. I'm just saying there are very big issues at play here. And how will we participate? >> Loren: Well, uh, we need another podcast for that. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yeah. >> Loren: What do you hope for? The future of Christianity? Maybe we could bring

filament more local. What do you hope for? American churches or the churches maybe you work with or will work with? >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Don't give, uh, up hope. Don't give up hope. There's so much hope. And we really can dream big. There's no cap on dreaming big. We can co create miracles. God is alive. There's no end date on the church. Your faith doesn't have to shrink because somebody thinks they don't care about church. Don't

give up. Don't give up. Don't give up. And, you know, let's. >> Loren: Yeah, I think we can go back to that. Let's believe in miracles, right? >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Yes, absolutely. The age of miracles is not passed. >> Loren: Yeah. Well, where can people connect with you? Learn more about the organization, all that stuff. >> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Oh, yeah. Thank you for asking. Um, I can be found online@rebeccasimonpeter.com. r e b e kah simmonpeter

uh.com. and you can find my website there. You can find my books on Amazon. And, um, you know, just love to hear from people. And you can email me through there. And, uh, maybe there'll be connections on your podcast as well. >> Loren: Yes, yes, yes. Well, this has been a wonderful conversation. Really appreciate your time, um, praying, especially for God's peace with you and your family. As you continue to process and grieve the loss of your mother. So may God's peace be with you.

>> Rebekah Simon-Peter: Thank you, Loren. Such a pleasure to be with you. And thank you so much for the invitation and opportunity. >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast. The Future Christian podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments, and ideas for future

episodes. Visit our website at, uh, future dash christian.com and find the connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the podesthe to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people. Thanks. And go in peace.