¶ Intro / Opening
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith
walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Chuck DeGroat to
the program. Chuck is a professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, where he also serves as the founding executive director of the Clinical Mental Health Counseling Program. He is a licensed therapist, spiritual director, author, retreat leader, speaker, and faculty member with the Soul Care Institute.
As a therapist, he specializes in navigating issues of abuse and trauma, pastoral and leadership, Health and Doubt, and Dark nights on the faith Journey. He trains clergy in handling issues of abuse and trauma, conducts pastor and planter assessments, and facilitates church consultations and investigations of abuse. Before transitioning to training and forming pastors, Chuck served as a pastor in Orlando and San Francisco. He and his wife Sarah have been married for 30 years and have two
adult daughters. A, uh, reminder, before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro ah.com with comments, questions or ideas for future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern the future of the church. >> Chuck: Okay.
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased to be welcoming Chuck De Groat. And I'm sorry, Chuck, did he want, like, titles or. >> Chuck: No, no, Chuck is great. >> Loren: Yeah. Thanks so much for being here. You've been on the show before. But just share, if you would, briefly, just about your, your background and uh, what, what's, what's going on with you today? >> Chuck: Yeah, I, uh, I was in,
uh. Well, I'm originally from Long Island Island, New York, um, by way of Iowa, Chicago, Florida, San Francisco, and now West Michigan. I was a pastor in Orlando and in San Francisco and started some clinical counseling centers in those places. And then I've been, ah, a faculty member at a seminary in West Michigan, Western Theological Seminary for the last 11 years where I, um, lead a clinical counseling program here and so, yeah, it's been a
pretty full life. And I'm a therapist, I'm a pastor as well as a therapist. So I've been practicing as a therapist for 25 years as well. >> Loren: Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. And then, uh, you're, you're good at this. And I could probably use some of this later on after we wrap some spiritual practices that uh, are rec. You like to do or find meaningful. >> Chuck: Well, um, I think at the top of the list is contemplative, uh, prayer, silent prayer.
M. Um, I grew up in a tradition where, uh, prayer was wrapped around a lot of words. And so, um, for me now, silence, uh, a more imaginative space that I go into. Um, those are important practices. Breathing, connecting to my body. So very embodied. Contemplative prayer practice is kind of right at the top of my list. But you know, I love, I love engaging nature walks in nature walking labyrinths. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Chuck: Um, and things like that too.
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome for sharing. Thanks you. Thank you for sharing that. Well, we're kind of jumping right into it because Chuck has a heart out and a, ah, lot of content actually to talk about in his book. Chuck's the author of the book Healing what's Within. You'll have to give the subtitle, but when does this book come out, Chuck? As a recording? >> Chuck: October 8th of 24. >> Loren: Okay. So, uh, I can't remember when this is scheduled there, but
so be on the lookout. I'm sure it'll be available for pre order regardless. Right?
¶ Understanding Trauma and Healing
>> Chuck: Yeah, that's right. That's right. >> Loren: So whether it's uh, whether it's pre October or post October, be on lookout for it. But I think so. And I had the, I had the privilege, Chuck, to hear you when you spoke at Steve, uh, Cust's conference. Yeah, that was like a year ago. >> Chuck: Yeah, that's right. >> Loren: In the Denver metro. And you touched on some of these themes.
But talk a little bit about like, I hate to say what inspired the book, but really like how this coalesced into a book. >> Chuck: Yeah, well, I had done some work before this on narcissism in the church and um, you know, that conversation, there's a lot that goes into that. Narcissism, um, and spiritual abuse in the church, uh, is pretty fraught territory and um, you encounter people in a lot of pain. And I had my own experience many years ago
too. And so as I thought about what might be next, I really wanted to focus on the healing process. I didn't want to do like a narcissism book. 2.0 or something like that. But, you know, now when we experience things that are hard and that we can't really control, like events that happen to us, um, maybe a desire for justice that we just can't get, like, so what do we do then? And how do we do the
healing work with within? One of the things we know about trauma is that trauma is not what happens to you, but what happens within. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Chuck: The imprint that's left behind. And so this is really a book that invites people to do that deep inner work, but, um, also framed up through three questions from
Genesis Chapter three. So I really wanted to also, uh, invite people to hear God's curious and compassionate questions, um, with a different ear than they might have heard them with before, perhaps if they'd grown up in traditions where God was particularly angry in Genesis Chapter three. And, um.
>> Loren: Yeah. >> Chuck: And so I really wanted to sort of frame those in a compassionate way to say, you know, in the midst of your pain, your trauma, experiences of injustice, abuse, God shows up with kindness and compassion. >> Loren: Why don't you share a little bit about. Because. Why don't you share a little about Internal family systems theory? Because I think that certainly has a key role, that concept or framework within the book. Why
don't you explain that a little bit for our listeners? Uh, we might reference. >> Chuck: Yeah, there's one particular chapter. I think it's like chapter seven, six, five. I can't remember. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Chuck: Um, where in fact, I even start out with, um, the movie Inside Out. The first one. I don't think when I submitted my manuscript, I knew a second one was coming out. But, uh.
>> Loren: Yeah. >> Chuck: Yeah, I found Internal Family Systems 20 years ago now, um, on a VHS tape at a school where I was doing some teaching. And it blew my mind. Because the real simple way of talking about it is we all have parts. Which is to say we, uh, wake up in the morning and part of us wants to lay in bed. And another part wants to get going. And another part says, I'm not even sure I want to be in this world anymore. And
we're complex, we're multifaceted. And I think the reality is, is because of the pain of our lives, the experiences that we've had, there are different parts of us that show up in different ways at different times. And, you know, there's. There's probably a version of me that shows up to something like this that tend. Wants to do well. You know, wants to. Wants Loren to appreciate, you know, how articulate or articulate. See, I can't even say the Word I am, um, and ah, how much I have to offer.
>> Loren: Yeah. >> Chuck: Um, and other parts of me that might be sort of hiding the background that carry shame or anxiety or. And we all live like this, we end up living pretty divided lives.
And um, the work of internal family systems is really about uh, being deeply connected to our true selves, um, and living from that core and anchored place well, remaining well, continuing to have access to these other different parts of us that tend uh, to go off on their own but really need a lot of love and care, uh, in the
process. And so part of what I introduced folks to in this is a bit of that work of befriending the different parts of us that sometimes uh, take over, sometimes perfectionistic, sometimes are angry, sometimes we're ashamed, um, and uh, with a lot of kindness and hospitality within.
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. And um, I'm just thinking again, like, I think I said this in my email to you that this is in many ways like a book that I read that I found so helpful for me and that's why I wanted to talk to you and I'm hoping it's helpful for our listeners as well. Um, but I'm just thinking about like the parts like I was at a church group and I've been really trying to do some like parts work myself and I was in a group where I felt like I was.
I'm trying to be aware of like again how my parts show up. So like in this group, like I felt like, oh, I'm talking too much and that part is being too much. And then I talked to my wife and she's like, hey, you didn't say enough. So it's just being aware of those parts, right? Yes. Is a learning endeavor. >> Chuck: Yeah, it is. And you know, I think this is part of growing in self awareness, you know that as you become more aware of how you show up in
different times in different places. Like someone reflected back to me recently that they sensed that I was a bit anxious and that I was, that I, I was coming off as like the funny guy. I was trying to be the funny guy. And I thought, oh, that's a really old story in my body. Like that, that was one of the ways that I used to cope growing up on Long Island, New York, where I grew up in the midst of the anxiety and tumultuousness I grew up in. So I'd keep it light, I'll keep it
funny. And, and so how do I become more aware of that part of me that's okay to Be funny. Mhm. But I also want to be aware of when it's a way of coping because of stress and anxiety and other things. >> Loren: So you mentioned the befriending of our parts in the book, befriending our Suffering. I think that's been one of the most intriguing aspects of IFS internal family systems theory as I've learned it. Um, but, uh, I'm thinking about, I'm not going to say my parts,
right. But I'm going to think about my parts and I think about like, it was a real revelation to me to think about some of these parts that are behaving in ways that are not super helpful for me. Right. Moving forward and then learning, like, hey, like those parts can actually like really be helpful and just about figuring it out. So like, I want to really contextualize this because again, this is a, this is a podcast for
pastors and church leaders. So I want to contextualize it to that context and space. And I remember like having this conversation with another guest. But like, I guess I'll speak somewhat general generally for myself. Like, I can imagine in a church context where I have a part that's as a pastor that it's hard to think of that part as helpful when it's constantly behaving in an unhelpful ways. Like it's like, oh, you know, the budget is screwed and, um, you know, everybody hates you or
whatever. Or, you know, there's a congregant that really brings up some memories of a difficult relationship. Right. >> Chuck: Yeah. I mean, I, I think that all we can do is sort of control what's going on in us and be aware of what's going on in us, you know, and then, and you know, if you do have some leadership capacity with others, there's a way that, uh, I think if you're doing your own work, that you can lean in and begin to invite others to
become more aware. But the reality is, like when you, when you have a group of people come around a table, well, if my funny guy is showing up and her angry side is showing up, and his, you know, quiet, passive side, you know, um, it might be a disaster of a meeting. Um, it's, it's always best when we can bring the fullness of
ourselves to a meeting. And so learning this, doing this work and learning this language as a kind of shorthand so that we can show up more fully is really important, I think. And the reality is we have lots of different ways of, of coping. Um, our parts are really in many respects Ways of coping, uh, in the m. In the midst of our anxiety and pain and things like that. And if we can become more aware of not only how we're showing up in the present moment, but what the roots are. Like, how
did I. How did that start? You know, it's. That could be really helpful. >> Loren: Yeah. I did something in CPE where I had a clinical, uh, pastoral education for our listeners, where I had to write, like, a. A narrative. Foundational narrative or something like that. And again, it was something. When I thought about that narrative in the context of ifs, like, my parts, I was like, holy smokes. Like, that's. It's all right there.
>> Chuck: Yeah. >> Loren: Uh, and then talking to one of my good friends who is well trained in ifs. Like, he similarly, like, has a story that he's kind of recognized that really has those parts playing different roles. So it is. It is. Boy, it's powerful. >> Chuck: Yeah. >> Loren: I don't want to get too far into this to not talk about Genesis 3, those three questions. So
why don't you just talk through those three questions? Because, man, for me, they were so holy smokes. Foundational or impactful? >> Chuck: Ah, yeah. It's a lot of people, I think, experience. This is a different way of engaging, um, God or being. Being, um, engaged by God in Genesis chapter three. And for me, this goes back a long, long time ago, early 2000s, where I was leading some retreats. And it struck me that God's where are you? Was, um, maybe not as angry as I'd
heard it before. You know, people know. Most people know the backstory of Genesis 3. This slithering serpent sort of sidles up to Adam and Eve and says, did God really say that you must not eat from the tree? And really what the serpent is doing is it's causing, um, doubt or questions about God's goodness, about Adam and Eve's enoughness. It's just raising lots of
questions. And Adam and Eve are left with this big, big question of, like, are we going to have to grasp for that fruit in order to, um, fill ourselves in a way that maybe God hadn't filled us or to meet needs that maybe God hadn't met. Like, uh, in the midst of that question, are we enough? They go ahead and grasp. And of course, they're awakened to their own nakedness. They feel exposed, and so they're ashamed and they hide and they sew fig leaves.
Most people know that part of the story. It's the next part where God is walking in the cool the day, which is really interesting because he has commentators really wrestle with what's going on there. But the reality is that God was probably walking during the part of the day when the sun had gone down, when it was cooler, probably during the time of the day, at least the way the story goes. Um, that God and Adam and Eve would have taken
a walk. I think that's. That's, you know, whoever is narrating the story is trying to tell something of a story like that. Like, they were friends in the garden. And now God's walking in the garden, like, where did you go? I miss you. And that's what struck me is like, God's, where are you? In fact, the word where is the first word of the book of Lamentations. It's a word of heartbreak. It's like a broken friend. Where are you? Um, I remember I got lost a number of
years ago in the woods. And, you know, my dad was crying out, where are you, son? Where are you? Um, and so that's so different. Like, if you grew up in a tradition where God was angry and it was like a where the hell are you? Um, who told you? So. So where are you? Is a kind question, and it's a question that invites us to come out of hiding. Um, to become aware of how we're hiding and the fig leaves that we've sown. >> Loren: Yeah.
>> Chuck: Um, we talked a lot about that. The second question, who told you? Which gets us to reflect on our stories, like, how did you get here in the first place? And what story have you been believing about yourself? And then the third question, have you eaten from the tree? Which is to say, where have you taken your hunger and thirst? Um, where have you gone for satisfaction?
And, uh, my sense is that that takes us to the New Testament and the question that Jesus asks more than any other question. And that's, um, what do you want? What do you long for? You know? And I think God is asking us, what do you long for? Wanting us to get in touch with our deepest desires and deepest longings. >> Loren: Yeah. It really reminds me of something else you talked about in the book about that. I think you wrote about addiction really being about disconnection.
>> Chuck: Yeah. >> Loren: Which I think is a powerful, powerful, uh, way to say it. But I was reminded of the where are you? Like, one of my previous guests, Yolanda Solomon, I think she made this exact point that throughout Scripture, that question is being asked by God, where are you? And it's such a powerful reframing to think about. Not as, like, you said, that angry, where are you? But, hey,
where are You. And I think it does fit with the narrative of Scripture when we think about. She, um, referenced another story I hadn't thought about. But certainly the prodigal son is the most obvious one that comes to mind. Yeah, I think the. Who told you? I feel like that really resonates with the parts. Right? >> Chuck: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think as you start listening within, you begin to hear some different voices. And, um, I don't know about
you. Maybe I do. Maybe people who are listening right now are like, he hears voices. Why did Loren invite him on? But I do think that in any given day, as I'm listening within, um, there are parts of me that are like. They're out ahead of me, and they're like, you've got this. You can do this. You're well prepared. You're going to be fine. There are parts of me that are like, oh, no, stay home today. This isn't going to go well. Um, I. This morning I taught a
class here at the seminary. And, uh, on some material I hadn't taught on in a while. And I even told the class, you know, there's a part of me that comes in kind of excited about today, um, with a voice of like, isn't this wonderful that you get to teach on this? And then there's another part of me that just wanted to kind of crawl into a hole this morning
¶ Living from the True Self
and not come out. Um, because I have this sense that, uh, you know, I. Gosh, I haven't taught on this in a long, long time. And what if I, you know, what if it doesn't go well? That's, uh, my shame sort of catching up with me. And there are lots of other different voices within me at any given time, uh, that can be critical, that, uh, can be judgmental of others, that can be grandiose, that can. That can be beautiful. And so
I. It's always a fun exercise. I mean, people, as you probably know, are kind of dubious about this until they start practicing it. >> Loren: Right. It sounds super wonky. Like, I was reading. I was reading, uh. Because. What is it? Schwartz's big white cover book. I can't remember the title. >> Chuck: Is that no Bad Parts or something else? >> Loren: No, I think it was, like, an introduction. I can't remember. Yeah, it's frankly. It's frankly,
like, boring. Like, I couldn't make it through. It was so boring. Um, like, I was. I was reading it, like, wanting to read, like, what's, um, his name? Um. Gosh, who's the. Who's the family systems rabbi guy that I'M blanking on. >> Chuck: Oh, Friedman, Friedman. >> Loren: Like I was expecting like Friedman level of just like brilliance and
you know, just humor and dry wit and everything. And it wasn't quite that, but I was reading that his, his things about these parts and like what's coming to mind, Chuck, is like Frank Peretti, like you know, like these uh, you know we're. There's just this inherent mistrust of just anything that sounds different and oh gosh, that might be bad. Which I guess is a part. Right? Might say almost. Right? >> Chuck: Yeah, yeah, uh, I think so.
>> Loren: But I was thinking of uh, when I'm thinking about. When I'm thinking about uh, parts and. Who told you. I can't remember if you write about this in the book, but I'm thinking of. And I'm blanking on titles right now, I think. Is it Ashley Cook, uh, who co wrote a book on ifs from a Christian perspective? >> Chuck: Oh, Allison Cook. >> Loren: Allison Cook, yes. And they talk about, I can't remember the co author but they talk about like the spirit led self.
>> Chuck: Yeah. >> Loren: So talk a little bit if you can. Just about. I don't know, I don't know if you use similar phraseology or naming. Uh, but how do you know? >> Chuck: Like what? >> Loren: Because again, just to be transparent, because there was a, there was a time for me where I like, I could say like hey, I don't think that's the voice of truth. But I don't. Mhm. I don't know if I can hear like the voice of truth. Right.
>> Chuck: Yeah, yeah. I mean it goes by various names. You know, even in the Bible, Paul talks about the old self and the new self, you know, and in the Christian tradition it's become the true self. Um, Allison and Kim Miller talk about it as the spirit led self. However you describe it, what they're saying is this is the core of you. Um, this is the image bearing core where God dwells. This is you when you're anchored and rooted, you know, in that Ephesians 3 kind of sense.
>> Loren: Mhm. >> Chuck: Um, that's your adult self and that we all have a ah, capacity to connect to our adult cells and live from our adult cells. But the reality is, is that because of what happens to us and what we experience in life, that we live out of these, these other cells that um, that are just trying to cope frantically oftentimes in the world.
Right. And so maybe it's a perfectionist you or a critic you or a workaholic you, um, maybe it's a self sabotaging you, you Know, but there's a constellation. I remember when I was doing my IFS work. I started back in 2009, 2010, something like that, with Jay early out in San Francisco. And, uh, I remember calling my wife one day after a session, and I was like, I'm up to
14. Um, but the idea being that the true self is that anchored self, where you are the conductor of the orchestra, you create a place at the table for all the other selves around the self to come and sit and
be known and seen. And when we're, uh, when we're fragmented, when we're frazzled, when we're overwhelmed, when we're exhausted, it's like some of these other selves get out ahead of us and m. You know, perfectionistic me drives the train, or self sabotaging me drives the bus, or, you know, and that's what we have to begin to notice is like, um, in any given day, at any given moment, like, for me, even before our time,
I'm asking myself, where are you, Chuck? You know, because I want to make sure that I'm here, sitting in this chair, and it's not like some performative version of me or maybe some overwhelmed and ashamed part of me that, you know, that I'm. I'm here and I'm present in my body and ready to talk to you. >> Loren: Yeah, let's stay on that theme, because I wanted to talk about. I'm going to try to find the quote here on page 80. I thought this
was, frankly. I mean, again, I grew up very conservative, so I found this almost revelatory. You write that while some might contend that our core problem as humans is that we think too highly of ourselves, you say. I'd argue that most of us live with an underlying sense of worthlessness,
¶ Shame as a Precursor to Harmful Behavior
alienation, and disillusionment. I mean, again, as someone who grew up very conservative Christian, that quote is shocking, almost. >> Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. And what we know is that there are certainly people who think too highly of themselves, but underneath that, inevitably, is shame. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Chuck: Um, and we see this play out. You know, this is sort of a psychological truism. I think it's a biblical
one, too. There are a number of people now who are saying, even before Adam and Eve grasped for the fruit, which, you know, is sometimes theologized as some sort of arrogant decision, Adam and Eve's pride. What they're wrestling with are these questions that are raised by the serpent. They're being gaslit by the way they're being abused, you know, by the serpent, who is raising questions that Send them spiraling like maybe we're not enough. Maybe we're missing something which I call shame.
And so shame precedes even the grasping of the fruit. And so I think for, for all of us. And you know, I've done some significant work on narcissism. You know, the way we understand that psychologically is that you're not born with narciss. You don't wake up one day and choose to become a narcissist. It's born out of a way of coping. I'm going to become grandiose. I'm going to become the bully because I experienced abuse or I was bullied or I was small or I was made to feel ashamed.
And I never ever want to feel that again. >> Loren: Yeah, that really makes sense again from a parts perspective. Right, because you, uh, I mean, I'm not an expert, but I imagine that that narcissistic part is just doing super extra overtime. Right? >> Chuck: Yeah, that's it. 100%. And that, that's the, that would be a take on narcissism that, uh, very few really get and understand. Like, I, I rarely hear that articulated the
way you just articulated that, Loren. But I'd say it's, it's a really important next, um, step in our understanding of it. Because too often when people talk about narcissists, thinking about that beautiful space we call Twitter or X, you know, uh, where we have such healthy conversations all the time. But people will call other people narcissists in a way that, uh, they seem to be labeling them
and speaking to the very core of who they are. I've been doing this work for a long time, and I know narcissism is never reflective of the core of who a person is. A person at their core is loved as an image bearer, is seen and known by God. But the narcissist seems to be driving the bus, you know, and it's loud and the narcissist is causing a lot of problems, you know, but it's just a part.
>> Loren: Yeah. And I think that gets into something that I found intriguing in the book, in, in the lecture I heard you give. I mean, there certainly is in some ways. I don't know if you want to dive too deep into this, but there certainly is a theological framework or undergirding that's a little shift away from like this total depravity type mentality towards like a, at least in my own language, I would say as like a brokenness or, ah, a woundedness. I think you use that word Right.
>> Chuck: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I want to start with original goodness. And I want to say that that's core to who we are, you know, and we are image bearing, which is to say we're made for worth, belonging and purpose. But, uh, the reality is, is that there is this. I call it a primal wound. You know, uh, instead of original sin, I talk about a primal wound. And the reason I do that is, you know, wound is the trauma. By the way, trauma is the Greek word
for wound, right? So when we're talking about trauma, we're talking about a core wound. And when we talk about trauma, we're talking about disconnection at its core. And so really what Genesis 3 is, is about a primal wound, a primal disconnection, a primal trauma that renders us alienated and estranged from ourselves and from each other and from God. And that's the age old problem. Um, now out of that, when our, when our lives are. When we're disconnected, when we're
¶ The Primal Wound and Understanding Biography
estranged, when we're disordered, so to speak, um, we will do things that harm others and harm ourselves. That's what Christians have classically called sin. But we've got all of this turned upside down because sometimes we define people by, uh, as sinners at the core. Right. I think that's a real problem. >> Loren: Yeah. I'm thinking about, again, I'm thinking about ptsd, Post traumatic stress syndrome. Right. As I understand trauma.
And again, that disconnectedness. And this is what's so interesting about the story in Genesis 3, right. How they are disconnected from God and how, at least as I understand it, like two people can experience the exact same event. But if one person has someone with them or shortly thereafter, the process with, they may not experience that event as traumatic. Right. Whereas the other person, who's alone, can often develop that trauma.
>> Chuck: Yeah, yeah. This is where you know, and I'm sure you have listeners, we're like, oh gosh, they're talking about trauma. Everyone's talking about trauma nowadays. It's so overused, it's so misused. And, uh, but what I'd want to say is, yeah, it is. When people talk about how traumatic it is to drop their phone in the toilet bowl or something. But trauma at its core, if it's true that it is about disconnection, as we were just talking about, then we all live with a kind of
primal sense of disconnection. We all experience some sense of being estranged from ourselves. G.K. chesterton once said, every man has forgotten who he is. That's estrangement. That's alienation. And so there is that kind of, um, resounding wound that, you know that. That sort of leaps off the Pages from Genesis 3 on, and you see the implications of it for 1,185 chapters of the Bible, until you get to Revelation 21 and 22. And that
trauma that you're speaking of. Well, um, there's a lot more that we can say about it. But when two people experience, let's say they go through a natural disaster, a tornado tears through a small town, um, if a person is, um, taken in by another family, if they're helped, they're fed, they're allowed to cry, the stress that they're experiencing is far less apt to turn into trauma than the person who goes it alone. Which is to say that's the story of Genesis
3 as well. When you go it alone, you're more apt to find yourself disconnected and traumatized. And, um, that's what we need to be paying attention to in our lives. >> Loren: Yeah. So it brings me to a real practical question that's coming to mind when I'm thinking about clergy, church leaders, especially for clergy. And I guess this is what made Covid so hard, right. Is that we were going through this really traumatic event. And broadly speaking, we're very
isolated. Like, is this why it's so important for clergy to have some kind of support group or close
¶ The Importance of Support Groups for Church Leaders
friendship? >> Chuck: Uh, yes. Yeah. I was just on a call the other morning, um, with a group. We're trying to maybe get some money to do some work on secondary trauma for pastors. Pastors, um, you know, who are constantly dealing with all kinds of realities. Right. And you got the funerals, you got the disappointed parishioners, and you got the people who are like, we, um, need to sing these songs more. And we've got all the stuff that pastors go through.
Um, and the language that we use is secondary trauma, which is to say that, you know, as a result of being in m. In the midst of all these crises that go on every day, pastors start to feel numb or angry or cynical or lethargic or overwhelmed or grandiose in the sense that I can do anything. Um, and so that's why it's so important for pastors, uh, to have friends to be connected, because we're more apt to live in the ongoing sort of story of trauma before going it alone.
But if you have, you know, if you have a group of pastors you're meeting with regularly, regularly, and you're like, man, this was a doozy of A week. Like, I, I got, um, broadsided by one of my elders. And then, uh, you know, I got another call about, you know, another leader in the church with a pornography addiction. And then I, you know, I. Then we found out that, uh, we're not gonna have enough money to meet budget this year. >> Loren: Right.
>> Chuck: It's like, oh, uh, you. Yeah, you need to be processing that. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah, we're kind of ping ponging back and forth here just because, like, there's so much good stuff you have. And it kind of sparks my mind about something else. I want to go back to. You write about biography, never excusing
harmful behavior. I want to see if I can find the quote, but it certainly let, uh, me see if I can find the quote, but it certainly invites us to attend to the wound of which it occurs. So again, this really gets into, I think, a broader theological question of whether it be total depravity, what have you, uh, talk about that.
Because maybe I'm being too cynical, but it does seem like from my perspective there can be this tendency in our culture to be like, oh, uh, we can just, hey, he grew up in a rough home, so, you know, that's why he's doing what he is. Like, we can understand it, but also like, hey, talk about, like, how to balance that tension between. Hey, had a rough childhood. But also like, I can't just act like a jerk 24 7.
Like, I'm thinking, I don't know if you watch the Good Place. Like, I love the Good Place. Like Ellen, uh, Eleanor Shellstrop, Right? >> Chuck: Yeah. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Part of what you're getting at is, um, in the last section of the book, I start talking about addiction and how we, we home in on the behavior. And uh, what we want to do is we want to change the behavior. We don't want them to drink, we don't want them to look at pornography. We don't want them to overeat.
We don't, you know, whatever it is. And um, I don't want to minimize the damage that addictive behavior can do or behavior that's sabotaging of others or harming of others herself. Right. Um, I do want to get curious about what it's about. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Chuck: And, you know, so why is he a jerk? Or why does he over drink? Or why does, why does he, um. Why does she look at pornography? Why does she overeat? Whatever, you know, whatever the things are. Right. Um, and, and uh,
invariably these are born out of a wound. Um, a biography, a story. There's a story underneath. That's why I say there's always biography beneath the behavior. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Chuck: And so what is that story? And how, how did that, you know, becoming the jerk, becoming the bully, narcissist, um, over drinking, you know, how was that a source of coping? How is that a way of alleviating anxiety, self soothing? Um, how has that served
the person for years and years? And so, you know, I'm, I'm always curious. I tell the story in there of. And I've told the story in a variety of ways over the years of, um, someone in the church who had had an affair and was really being beat up by a lot of other people in the church for the affair. And I went and sat down with this person. I simply asked, what were you longing for? Yeah, I wasn't trying to excuse the behavior, but I was trying to get to the heart like, what, what
was, what was going on? And, and, and this person said, um, my spouse hasn't looked at me for years. Like, I haven't felt loved in years. And, uh, I've been alone, I've been isolated. Isolated. And then this other person, you know, I found someone who saw me. And um, you know, that's not an excuse. >> Loren: Right. >> Chuck: Again for, um, for the affair. But it does help make sense of it and it does help us to approach, you know, I do pastoral care and counseling. Right.
So, yeah, I want to approach people, um, in a way that, uh, you know, that, that, that moves toward them with empathy, with compassion, that looks beneath the waterline at, uh, you know, how they can heal most deeply. >> Loren: Yeah. And I heard this in another context, and I'm not going to get it correct, exactly. But the scholar was making the point that in tenuous conversations we can often come first with like, conviction and then curiosity.
>> Chuck: Yeah. >> Loren: And he's kind of making the point, like, let's come first with, I think, compassion, civility, and then finally conviction. Like. Yeah, I, you're obviously the expert far more than I am, but I can imagine in a conversation like you're referencing, like, coming at someone with like, hey, affairs. Wrong. Like, she knows that. Right. They. A person in that context probably knows that. And it's not going to solve the issue.
>> Chuck: No, no, it's not. And, um, you probably push the person further away, you know, and if you, if you look at this from a parts perspective, you know, if there's a part of that person who is acting out in one way or another, the only way to, um, win over that part, which is to say the only Way to, like, actually do the work of healing is to do it with empathy and
compassion. You know, uh, if that's a part that was looking for soothing in an affair, um, I want to get curious about what it needed in that affair, what it needed in that soothing, why it didn't feel, uh. Why this part, for a long time, didn't feel like it was worth it. What. Why it was able to connect or whatever the case may be. Right. There's. There's a whole trail to pursue there. But of course, this is what I do for a living. Like, I, uh, I love to pursue the. Under the
waterline kind of stu. Right. And, um, you know, there's some pastor is going to say, well, no, you just need to discipline that person. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Chuck: But I want to say, you know, I think there's probably more going on there. >> Loren: Well, I guess I'll just speak personally. Like, I found even when I'm, like, curious about a behavior and curious about, like, how does it connect my part? I'm like, oh, it's like, it helps me not do that behavior.
>> Chuck: Yeah. >> Loren: If I can figure out, at least to some degree, like, what am I. Like to use that third question. Like, what do I. What do I really long for? What am I. What am I needing in this context? Um, and that's a real mind drip to like. To like, I think, accept that part that's behaving poorly and then recognize that, you know, that part is really trying to do good for you. And. >> Chuck: Yeah. >> Loren: You know, like. >> Chuck: Yeah.
>> Loren: Oh, wait. This part can actually behave in help. Helpful ways for me. Yeah. >> Chuck: Yeah. Those. Our parts are often really. Just really desperate. You know, where Dan, uh, Siegel says that there. There are four fundamental needs every human has when they're born to feel safe, seen,
soothed, and secure. And, you know, that I. I think what happens is when we don't experience that, we're going to be chasing after feelings of safety, soothing security, et cetera, for, uh, the rest of our lives. And so soothe me, soothe me, soothe me affair, you know, job, um, success, whatever the case may be. >> Loren: Yeah. For a narcissist scene, Right? >> Chuck: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The more the merrier.
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, let's take a break, and we'll come back with some closing questions. >> Chuck: All m. Right. >> Loren: We're back. Let me ask you one more question before I let you go, because this is like, this is the line that I hated the most. I suppose in a good way. You write that the deepest work often happens when the lights go out. I mean, yeah. I'VE kind of felt that for a while and I hate that. So maybe give me some
good news, I guess. Give our listeners some good news. >> Chuck: Yeah, well, I mean, I think we want to be in control oftentimes of the process. Right. I mean, I think, um, I hope this comes off as good news, but I mean I, I, um. This is a real struggle of mine. I turned 54 this year and I really thought that I would be over. I've struggled with a lot of anxiety my whole life. Right. And
um, I thought. And panic attacks and I really thought by 40, I'd be done with it by 45, I'd be done with it By 50. And um, you know, I'm, I'm. It's tough sometimes because um, the reality is we don't, we don't have as much control sometimes over these things as we think we do. Right. And I've done all the practices, I've done, you know, like, I've done the therapy and the practices and stuff like that.
Um, but I felt at times very much in the dark, you know, like, okay, God, I don't, I don't know where you are. I don't know what else to do. And there is something of a surrender that happens in that space. I think, um. Well, maybe for some you double down. I mean I've certainly had the tendency to want to double down, but I think, right. Some sense of like, okay, so this is, um, I think this is like, okay, so Paul had a thorn. Um, I, I guess this is something of a thorn, you know. And
um, I don't like it. Um, I think others struggle with, with other different kinds of things. And I don't talk about this a whole lot, but it's, it's something that I'm, I'm learning to befriend at some level as um. I certainly think my anxiety and my panic has probably led to um, a greater sense of dependence and limitation and humility to some degree.
Um, and uh, wrestling with God. And so yeah, it's, I don't know that that's good news, but I do think it is something that we learn over the years that you know, uh, we have far less control, there's far more mystery and we've got to live our lives a whole lot more open handed than we ordinarily do. >> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, great conversation. Really appreciate your insights. Really want to recommend the book again. Uh, the title is
Healing what's Within. Available in October. So Share anything else you want to share? Just about the book, how folks can connect with you, all that stuff. >> Chuck: Yeah, well, I'm on, um, a number of social media spaces. I'm just too old to do TikTok at this point, I think. Um, but at ChuckDeGroat, uh, D E G R O A t. And then chuckdegroat.net is my website. And I teach out at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan, if people want to find me there.
>> Loren: All right. Well, again, really appreciate the conversation. Really recommend the book. Thank you so much for your conversation. Always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. >> Chuck: Thanks, Loren. >> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments and ideas for future
episodes. Visit our website at ah, future-christian.com and find the Connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the plus pod to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people. Thanks and go in peace.