Casey Tygrett on Why Remembering Matters

>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in the 21st century. At the Future Christian Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors, and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical wisdom to help you and your community of faith

walk boldly into the future. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member of your faith community, this podcast is designed to challenge, inspire, and equip you with the tools you need for impactful ministry. And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Casey Tigret to

the program. Casey is a pastor and spiritual director who has lived in the spiritual formation conversation for the last two decades. He is the author of Becoming Curious, a Spiritual Practice of Asking Questions, the Practice of Remembering, Uncovering the Place of Memories in our spiritual Life, and the Gift of Restlessness, A, uh, Spirituality for Unsettled Seasons. He is passionate about the soul health of leaders and the recovery of the transformational way of Jesus

that is spiritual formation. He, his wife Holly and daughter Bailey live in Chicago. A reminder, before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh, laurensonatemediapro ah.com with comments, questions, or ideas for future episodes. We appreciate your voice and how we faithfully discern the future of the church.

>> Loren: All right, welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am Loren Richmond Jr and I'm pleased to be welcoming today. Casey Tigret, thanks so much for being here. And I, uh, think I got your name right. Right, Tigret. Okay, well, I really, really am looking forward to having this conversation with you about your book. But before we get into that, you've been on the show before, but share just a little bit about yourself, where you come from, where you're at today.

>> Casey Tygrett: Sure, sure. So I live in the southwest suburbs of Chicago and have been here for, oh, uh, gosh, quite a while now, since 2009. So whatever that math is. Almost 15 years. And I' throughout my life I've been a pastor and taught, um, in seminaries, spiritual director, worked in a variety of different places. And so my, my life right now is, is there's a lot of things going on, a lot of hats being worn, a lot of family transitions going

on. But I'm, uh, I'm actually doing some graduate work now in clinical mental health counseling. So there's a new chapter of my uh, life and work that's about to open up, which is really exciting. But it's also. Being 46 and going back to graduate school is hard than I thought it was going to be. Uh, I am not as spry as I,

as I used to be. But I uh, really have always loved and been invigorated by the discussion around spiritual formation, spiritual transformation, how people change, how, how they become like Christ but more so, how they not more so but in line with that, how they learn who they really are, questions of identity. And uh, story, story matters a lot, A lot. And so that's always been something I've been really passionate about. >> Loren: Well, I can't wait to see what comes from that.

That's such an important topic. Share if you would just briefly kind uh, of about your story of faith. What that looked like in the past, what that looks like today. >> Casey Tygrett: Yeah, Ah, I grew up in a faith in a family that went to church. Uh, uh, actually our, our whole family, my grandparents, aunts, uncles. In the town where I grew up, we all went to the same church. We occupied the first six pews on the right hand side. Wow. And that faith as a kid was for the large part really

just what we did as a family tradition. You know, I didn't have much investment in it. My parents were volunteer youth leaders. So ministry was something that was always at the periphery of my understanding about church. Like oh, you couldn't, you can be a volunteer person and you can

actually do something like this. And, and uh, I just, my, my favorite story about that is I remember as a little kid when my parents were youth leaders walking downstairs and just there was a person asleep on our couch and bags of their stuff in the living room and it was someone from our group who'd gotten kicked out of their house and had come to stay with us. So we uh, left that church and actually went to a different

church. Uh, my most significant faith experiences as a young person were in the Church of the Nazarene. And so I became a follower of Jesus there. I learned a lot of theology that uh, has been good and then a lot that I've had to unlearn over the years. Uh, through college. I uh, went to college with this desire to go into a full time ministry. Uh, not originally my original desire was to be a pharmacist

because I want to make a lot of money. But I was really bad at math and science so those two things not don't work out so well together. So ended up going into pastoral ministry. And was a senior pastor of some of a few churches, a student ministry, youth pastor for a while. And the better part, since 2009, I've really been working and focusing on

spiritual formation in the local church. So a lot of what has happened to me is I feel like my transformation has mapped onto the work that I've been doing with other people. And I think that's what happens to everyone. I don't. I don't think I'm an exception here. I, uh, think none of us are ever leading from this perch or teaching or writing or speaking or spiritual directing. If that's a verb. From this perch, it is always like parallel tracks.

Uh, the train tracks are running side by side, and we're always with. And even if it were not, that's where I would want to be. I m. Would rather be walking with people in transparency and vulnerability as much as possible. And that's been a big part of my faith story is, um, you know, going through some significantly difficult times. When I was in college, my parents divorced. And that was, uh, after 19 years of marriage. So that was

a huge. A huge moment where everything that I. A lot of things that I felt were really stable and grounded went away. And, um, that has ripples, you know, how you view relationships, how you view your, uh, relationship to your parents. And now in my late 40s, I have a very different relationship to them. And all that's tied in. So you asked me about faith. All that's tied in, uh, all of that is part of

the journey of faith. The life with God, the life with Jesus, learning to be like Jesus in the midst of these different circumstances. So that's been something I've. I've really. I've tried my best to focus on, um, through all the things that have happened in the course of my life. >> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. What has been. Obviously you kind of mentioned in your faith journey, learning and unlearning some things. I'm curious what has been a spiritual practice that

maybe you've learned? And I don't want to say unlearned, but does that make sense? >> Casey Tygrett: Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, the tradition, the Church of the Nazarene, has a really strong connection to the holiness tradition. I could go into the history. We're not going to nerd out on that right now. >> Loren: I wish we had time. >> Casey Tygrett: One of the gifts of it is this focus on kind of an inward experience of

God. And I have always, uh, you know, if you look at Myers Briggs, I am an ENFP. Enneagram. I'm an Enneagram 4. So a lot of my natural wiring is inward looking and so I was naturally disposed to pick up on that. But you know, a lot of the focus of Christian practice in my growing up, my especially my formative faith years, was on doing personal devotions. And the. I had a. And I don't know if I made this up or if I caught it, but the idea that if I didn't do that, bad things were going to

happen. Yeah, it was this sort of exchange. Like if I did my devotions one morning and things went great, it was like, oh, we'll see what happened there. And then if you didn't and things went horribly, it was like, oh, see what happened, happened there. And it carried with it this narrative, this image of God as kind of the punitive ticky tack

kind of hall monitor kind of God. And so the last few years, well, you know, part of the change there as unlearning has been understanding that the relationship with God is a given. It's the practice of intimacy. It's celebrating. Those daily times are not earning. They are just an outpouring of what is already true. It's not making something more true. It's increasing my connection,

it's deepening my relationship. So when I get up early in the morning and I spend those times, I do it because of what is already true. Which also means that, um, if I roll over and I'm not feeling it and I'm not feeling great, and I'm wondering if even Jesus would want to see me at that hour of the morning, I might just go back to sleep with the safety of knowing that, um, this is not going to make or break today. Um, this is not going to drive me outside of fellowship with the, uh, one in whom

I am, who. One in whom I have my identity and my purpose. And that's a given. So that's, that's been a big change, uh, aside from just some of the more hellfire and brimstone kind of theology and things like that. But that's been a big change for me and the freedom that comes from that is significant. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah, I really appreciate that.

I really appreciate that. I want to leave plenty of time just because I have a heart cut off here for discussion about your book, the Practice of Remembering, uncovering the place of memories in our spiritual life. This is a book that I read and really found resonant in my own life. So I wanted to just hear more about kind of what brought the book about, what inspired it and how, uh.

>> Casey Tygrett: It came to Be, Yeah, uh, I love books because as a reader, but also now as a writer, being able to see how a book comes to be. And it's really a collation of a person's life. And so the book, the Practice of Remembering in the previous edition, that was called, as I recall, that book came from, uh, had existed, has existed for quite some time. Like the original idea

of it has been around for a long time. And I had written something, had promoted and shipped it and shown it to some publishers, and nothing really came of it. And, uh, so I always thought the idea had some merit, but just the form of the book at the time before wasn't. Wasn't, uh, making any traction. And then, uh, after Covid, um, actually, right before COVID we started to think about, um, some new things.

Uh, there were some new things for me that had come up, and I started thinking about the stories of people. And so 2017, I think I'd written this idea out early in 2014, 15, something like that, 2016, I started thinking about some of the people that I had been meeting with as a spiritual director. And one of the things I noticed is that every conversation we had eventually went back to something that happened in the past.

And, uh, whether it was a question about faith or relationships or whatever it was. We began to talk about stories from the past. And then, like I said, parallel tracks. I started looking at my own life and then realized. I started to realize how much of my life with God is tied to, conditioned by, shaped by, influenced by experiences that I had had in the

past. And that we're still, you know, some of them 10, 15, 20 years later, still having a significant influence, changing the way I behave, the way I see things. And that led me to start looking at. Because I've always loved the intersections between disciplines that aren't always put together. So, uh, I love the idea of how does neuroscience really connect with, uh, faith? And there are other people who are doing that really, really well now. Um, but what I wanted to see was our brain

is such a huge part of our formation. Yeah, we don't have life with God without our brains. And so God designed our brains to function in a certain way. And specifically how our brains archive, retrieve, process memories. And if that's the case, then obviously that has to have some sort of impact on our formation, who we become. >> Loren: Cutting you off, I was just to say, let's dive into that more, because I think that's one of the key aspects, at least as

I read the book. The power of memories to shape Our lives and give us a story. Uh, I thought the really interesting thing I think you had in the book about passing along trauma in stories. >> Casey Tygrett: Yeah, yeah, I'm, uh. I am. First, let's just say this up front. I'm an armchair neuroscientist at best. But the way that I understand the research is our brains. How our brains archive things is that they take experiences so through our senses and they create a memory around

them. So our brains are built to where something comes in through our senses. It's then shifted to another part that it becomes a memory, which is like a scene from a movie. And then that memory eventually becomes a story. So not only is it archived, but if it's retrieved enough, then it becomes a story about the world. So the illustration I make a lot is

this. If you get bit by a dog and you have that experience of the pain and the sound and the adrenaline and all of that, that memory sticks with you. It gets archived, and it's easily retrieved because it's a really powerful memory. And then what happens is, uh, it goes from being a memory to being a story, which is it becomes a way. We see the world. So we see all dogs as enemies. And then that story then creates a script that changes how we act. And so we see a dog and we avoid them.

So when you talk about trauma, and especially trauma that's passed on, trauma can be passed on from our parents who have this memory that they carry that creates a story for them that then leads them to use a script or some other researchers have discovered that those traumas can actually be passed on in DNA memory. So actually, our genetic memory can carry that through from

one generation to the next. So whether it's passed on through demonstration or, you know, parenting or however that works, or whether it's actually in the proteins and the fibers of our actual body and brain and chemical makeup,

uh, those are two ways that they can be passed forward. And of course, once you say that, you say, if that's the case, and God is actually an active part of our everyday life, then how does that reality, especially when it comes to trauma, how does that reality interact with the God who is with us and who is guiding us to become something that we're not.

>> Loren: Yeah. I found this so intriguing, this part about trauma, especially in those negative stories being passed down, whether through demonstration, like you say, or DNA. I mean, I think it makes so much sense. I tend to study family systems a lot. So generational process is certainly, uh, an aspect of

family systems. And I think it really Makes so much sense when we think about especially persons of color, uh, especially in the United States, African American persons who have that generational trauma transmission. And I think about it like in my own life, my own family story kind of being aware the importance of uh, just listening to. I'll probably mention it this morning or I'll probably mention multiple times in this

interview. I just listening to a uh, podcast with Steve Kuss and he's talking about being aware of your family story for all these purposes. So without getting too deep into the science because we could spend a lot of time there, I do want to talk about like what is then the spiritual practice of remembering because we can talk about, we can talk about science, we can talk about brain chemistry and neurology, DNA and demonstration.

But I find in these conversations there's really, there tends to be this almost like des, I can't say the word desacralizing, where it becomes about atoms and particles rather than like there's no room for God. Does that make sense? >> Casey Tygrett: It does, it does make sense. Absolutely. And uh, the way I would say that is the way I would comment on that is we practice with the brain that

we have. And so if we really are people who are shaped by the stories that we have experienced, then anytime we enter into an encounter with God. When I walked into uh, in 2012, my family, we went to Paris, France and this was before the um, Notre Dame Cathedral had burned. And so we went to an evening service and there is this children's choir singing in all in French. I had no idea what they were saying, but it was just beautiful.

And so I'm sitting there just in, taking in all of this, the sights, the smells, the sounds. And I didn't know what they were saying, but there was this, it was one of those moments and I think people listening have had these too, where you don't know what's going on. You just know that you're like staring through the scrim between heaven and earth. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Casey Tygrett: Like you're experiencing something divine.

>> Loren: Mhm. >> Casey Tygrett: So I'm sitting here telling you the story and I can, I feel that. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Casey Tygrett: Like I feel that sense of being in that, in that cathedral that now is totally renovated and not understanding any of the words, but just sensing that God was near. And that's a memory that created a story for me that God can be in these places that we don't

understand. However, if somebody else who had a background, let's say they had an experience of abuse within a formal, like maybe a Roman Catholic setting, mhm. And they walked into that same cathedral. Their experience of God is going to be very different. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Casey Tygrett: So they bring whatever brain, whatever story into that same place. So where God fits is encountering. And part of it is us. You know, if the book

can. Everybody's got big dreams for a book, but if this book can accomplish anything, I, uh, think I would be more than content to see people just take seriously the fact that their memories really do matter in their life with God. I mean, their memories matter generally, but when it comes to a life with God and any spiritual practices we have, those memories really do matter. And they shape us. We're memory made people. And that's true reading scripture.

So when I read the scriptures and I see, especially in the Old Testament, God beginning a discourse going, I'm the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt. That's a memory statement. That's God asking them to recall, to retrieve this story, this experience. Some of them, and some of them, it's been passed down, so they weren't there for it, but their parents passed it down. And it's a vibrant thing. And so all of their practices then are geared around redemption, freedom,

liberation. All of our spiritual practices are based around what is that story that we carry with us. When I had this memory, however it came of God as the one who was very nitpicky about me keeping my morning devotions. I carried that into them. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Casey Tygrett: And so when we start talking about spiritual practices that help us process memories, we actually start with the idea that we approach every spiritual practice with a memory already in mind.

And then if we can meet God there with the honesty and some, um. Sometimes this takes therapy, sometimes it takes spiritual direction. M. Sometimes it's uh, just a really open, frank conversation. Sometimes maybe it's reading this book that helps to bring out to us, you know, a key memory. And I find that when people read the book and when I talk with them about it, it usually doesn't take long before like a really key moment from

their life pops into their head. And so I like to ask them as a practice to just like narrate that, write it out like you were going to cast, like you were going to film it, like a movie scene, give it as much depth and as much detail. What are the sounds, what are the sights or the smells of that particular moment? And then at the end I asked them, where was God in the middle of that? >> Loren: Let's talk into that because I want to get

into that. Because I think you write in the book that to make the past irrelevant is actually dangerous because it eliminates the past is to eliminate stories and scripts that shape us into the moment when we engage with God. All memories are flush with the presence of God. So I want to lean into this for a moment because I'm thinking, as I've done my own kind of processing of the past, I think of some painful memories, uh, that have had negative

impacts or what. Right. Like they've written a story right in my life that become scripts. And like, for me, it's real hard to be like, where's God? Right in that moment. Uh, so you write later, just a few pages later that redemption and reintegration is better than forgetting. Memories must be redeemed. And to be redeemed they have to be embraced just as they are just where they are without gloss or ceremony. Or else they become demons emboldened to pull back

on the reins of our lives at will. So even, even beyond myself, we know, like you mentioned, there are people who have experienced deep hurt and abuse in church or other spaces. And it feels really, it uh, feels a lot to say, hey, go back into that memory and reintegrate and redeem that memory rather than just throw it out. So talk through that if you would. >> Casey Tygrett: Yeah, yeah. The first thing I'll say about that is there

are some scenarios. This is where I think the compassion of God shows up in neuroscience. There are some memories where we have in our brains, ah, like a trauma trapdoor m where there are some things that are so extremely painful that our brains just delete them. >> Loren: Wow. Okay. >> Casey Tygrett: And they fall into. And this is where some work that people do with subconscious comes uh, to play because it doesn't go away. I mean you had that experience.

All the normal processes happened. But your brain knows you can't function living with this thing at the forefront. So it just sort of trapdoors it anything. Then the book that I would suggest people to do, I would always suggest that they do it. They don't do it alone. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Casey Tygrett: This is not a book to take and go away and then go fix your memories kind of thing by yourself. Like, there's probably

a need for some therapy. There's need for spiritual direction or at least a really compassionate, wise counselor who will be with you. So that's, that's the caveat I would give to. This is reengaging those memories needs to be done slowly. It uh, needs to be done with a bit of self grace. Um, and there has to be a lot of permission to do what David does in the psalms which is just gripe. What's happening is. And this is kind of a bigger picture.

What's happening is we have a Christian culture, and this is not putting the blame on the victims, but it's just pointing out an absence that I think is actually harming victims of really difficult past memories. We have a Christian culture that has. Doesn't learn, hasn't taught, and hasn't been invited to explore the idea of lament. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah.

>> Casey Tygrett: Um, there was some research done on, like, the major worship songs for a few, you know, five years, and there were like two and minor keys, you know, so. So we're not good on teaching. We love to celebrate. There's nothing wrong with celebrating. We've got to do that. We're called to do that. But to teach people how to lament, well, has got more impact than just, hey, here's. Here's how you do lent. Well, you know, it's more. This is how you

process. This is how you have a life with God in which you can complain and you can express anger, frustration. I think part of the reason we don't want to revisit those memories and see if God was there is because we have no idea what we would say. If I encountered God in a painful moment, what in the world would I say? Because we're afraid of getting the job response. Who do you think you are? Yeah. Ah, but that's one story.

The rest of the time here you have these notable figures from the scriptures and from Christian history who are constantly going, questioning God's motives. And where were you when this pain was happening, when this ache was happening? So I think the ability to lament is a big part of that. Taking it slowly, not being alone. And then also the part there about if we forget these things, if we try to dismiss them, and, you know,

sometimes it's minimizing. Well, it wasn't really that bad, or it's not as bad as other people or things like what we do then is we actually give it way more power because then what it gets to do is write stories and scripts for us from sort of the unexplored, dark underbelly of our life. And the deeper it gets, the stronger it gets bringing it out into the light, even as much as that hurts. And I say all this as somebody who's done it, but also as, uh, somebody who's walked with

other people and done it. It takes a long time, depending on the trauma of the moment, depending on how painful that moment was. But what I have noticed is the people who Bring it to the light, find their way to live with it and learn from it a whole lot faster than people who don't really ever want to touch that traumatic place. And so understanding how our memories work help us to do that, because then we can look at. We can look at things in reverse. We can look at habits we have.

>> Loren: Yes. >> Casey Tygrett: And say, where in the world does that come from? I had a. Had an issue, if it's okay to do this. I had an issue a few years ago where I, uh, would leave the house and I. I would get probably half block from my house and I would go, did I close the garage door? Now that's normal, you know? >> Loren: Yeah. Right. >> Casey Tygrett: So then I'd go back around the block and see that it was closed and I was fine.

And then I noticed as it went on, I would go back around the block, see that it was closed, and then, um, about the same place as I did before go, did I close the garage door? And I think it was when I did a full circle four times, I was like, I think this is, this is something more. So with the help of a counselor, I was able to go back and see that there was some trauma that happened in my childhood, like when I was 6, that had led me to this. There's a long

conversation in between. Six years old, you know, me driving around the block. But we start with those scripts. We can work our way back and find our way with. And I believe God through his spirit leads us. God wants us to experience healing and freedom. And so if this is how our brains work and this is how, at least close. If this is somewhat how our brains work and this is how we get freedom from this thing, then I think God is way more on our side in exploring this than we might imagine.

>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking, like, thinking about some of my own habits. Like, I've been trying to be curious with myself. Like when I grab my phone and just automatically go to social media, I'm like, why am I doing this type thing you write about, uh, speaking goodness over your memories and that being trying to find the quote here, one of the most difficult things. I'm trying to find the

full quote here. To see our memories as good as not to deny their darkness, but to see where and how Jesus brings to light. So I want to hear more about speaking goodness over those memories. >> Casey Tygrett: Yeah, yeah. It requires us to broaden our thinking about what is good. Um, I think about the Romans passage that God brings all things to the good, works all things to the good of those who love him and are called according to his

purpose. And that's, you know, that's engraved on, it's scrolled on people's walls and things like that. But like, the real teeth of that passage is that all things is a big category. >> Loren: Yeah. >> Casey Tygrett: And so if I have moments, memories in my past where I failed and like failed someone I love, which I have and have seen tears, have seen hurt that I've caused, relationships that I've damaged that are still not back to or will never be back to the way that

they used to be. How do I speak goodness over that? Um, the goodness comes in the education and the wisdom. There's so much of memory is just wisdom. It's knowing when we come around to the same place again. What was it about that moment that caused me to act the way that I did that caused the fracture in this relationship? God teach me about my response here. I remember a situation with my daughter that I talk about in the

book. And I learned that it was from me living at the margins of my energy. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Casey Tygrett: Being over committed, saying yes to too many things in too big of a hurry, way too focused on things that didn't matter. And so I still, uh. She's forgotten about the whole thing, which is hilarious. You know, I've talked to her about it

and she's like, I don't know what you're talking about. That. But I still, when that comes to mind, I'll be just random Tuesday thinking about this moment when my daughter was like five. And it's like, it cuts like it just happened. But what I can do now is dull the blade a bit by saying, okay, but you know, you know why that happened. So what? Let's just make sure we don't go there again. And I just think, I think that's the guidance of the

spirit. Let's make sure become the kind of person who senses that about you. Who knows when that's coming, who knows when you need to rest, when you need to say no. So speaking goodness has a lot to do with. What do you define as good? I define wisdom, especially the painful kind, as a good thing. But, uh, it's not a sprint. That's playing the long game with goodness. >> Loren: Yeah. I want to make sure we cover something else because I found it

so profound and beautiful. You have a section in the book where you talk about the Lord's supper and Judas, talking about memory. I want to try to find a quote here. Um, page 159. When Jesus breaks the bread, he invites us to acknowledge that both the beautiful and the broken memories

belong. When Jesus breaks the bread and lets the light shine on the faces of those who are first to follow and the first to abandon, we are invited into a greater drama where our acts of brokenness or our experience of being broken by others are brought into sacred space. So I'm ordained in a tradition, and I think we kind of run in quasi the same traditional space, like going way back, the Stone Campbell tradition, where the Lord's Supper is very

meaningful. And in our Protestant tradition, there's no sacramentalness, so to speak, to the tradition. But I think what I really resonated with your quote and your exploration of that is there almost is a sacredness in that. So talk more about, uh, that process. Yeah. >> Speaker D: Hm. >> Casey Tygrett: This is rooted in me having, uh, my inclinations towards communion. The Lord's Supper, Eucharist,

however you want to refer to it. From a young age, just that has always been a very powerful symbol. And it's always. I have a memory of it being even young, being particularly moving. And I think, you know, as I look at Stony, you mentioned Stone Campbell tradition, restoration movement, tradition, other traditions. There might not be anything that Christians practice that has a more unifying power than that. The words you say,

how you go do it. We're my, uh, church now. We have the pre wrapped cups, things that are just almost impossible to open and all that. >> Loren: At least quietly, right? >> Casey Tygrett: Yeah. At least now we give people time to do it. Like, hey, it's the beginning of service. Start trying to unwrap that thing. Um, but in all of that, it's. It comes down to these very basic elements.

And I couple that with. I've always had a love for Henry Nouwen and the way Henri Nouwen brings the concepts of the Eucharist, the idea of being taken, blessed, broken and given as identity markers for humanity. So we are, you know, Jesus takes the bread, all of us are taken. We're taken out of a world that wants to see death and destruction, and we're brought into life. We're blessed. We're called good. We're not just tolerated, but we're blessed. And then we're

broken by just natural circumstances. But the imagery there is that unless the bread is broken, there's not enough to go around. Each of the disciples gets a piece because the bread has been broken. And then it's only because of brokenness, because of all those pieces that we can be given to the world for the sake of compassionate ministry and things like that. And so when I think about that idea, idea of the men sitting around that table being the first to follow and the first to

abandon. There's a unity there, like, because we can remember moments when we followed, we can remember moments when we abandoned. And all of that gets channeled into this moment where the most exquisite point of love becomes our focus. And that memory begins to override all the other ones. The sacrificial love of Christ is this unifying power. And it brings all of our memories and stories and scripts and junk, and it just brings it to that one particular moment. And it

helps us learn who we are. It helps us remember what we're a part of. But ultimately it tells us that love will win, Babylon will fall, and love will win. And that is what happens for every broken, maligned, traumatized person, uh, in creation. And so that imagery is just so powerful for me. And the taste. Neuroscientists tell us that taste and smell. Smell is an automatic long term memory which fascinates me. Like, you don't get to, like, you don't forget smells ever. Good, bad and otherwise.

But like the smell of bread and wine, the taste of it, it just archives itself. And we can go back to that moment over and over and over again to remember who we are, to remember that love wins, to remember that we're a part of something bigger than ourselves. >> Loren: Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking of, uh, smells good and bad. I want to shift this. I, uh, want to shift this particular. As this is a podcast that really tries to focus on equipping pastors

and church leaders. I'm thinking again to the episode I listened to this morning with Steve Kuss, and he was mentioning how it's so easy to get triggered back into our eight year old self. And I'm thinking of another guest I've had on Kinsie, uh, Tate, who's a therapist who works with pastors. And she's talked about how easy it is to find ourselves kind of triggered to where that congregant is really reminding us of our dad, who yelled at us again and again with a kid, as a kid.

What advice do you have? What recommendations? I, um, mean beyond just the real practical, like do the work, see a counselor, uh, for a pastor, church leader who is dealing with some painful memories and someone is really reminding them of a tough figure from their past. >> Casey Tygrett: Well, you did hit the biggest part of it. The biggest part of it is just the acknowledgement, um, the acknowledgement and the embrace. And this comes from go see Kenzie Tate or do the work that

you need to do. See a spiritual director who. You need another person in your life who just reminds you, who knows these stories that are true about you. And it just reminds you that your responses, that's where they're coming from. Um, and that takes

time. That takes will. And I think for pastors to believe deep in their bones that their wellness is as much a part of the success of their ministry as the next conference they go to, as their secondary degree, as their time of preparation, we're getting better at that. I think, overall, the church is getting better at that. Understanding that soul health and soul flourishing is actually what matters

most. That if a pastor's soul is in trouble, then the people they lead are in trouble as well in the long run. So I think taking that seriously is part of it. I also think having a prayer or affirmation where we just return to what our identity really is, because at the core of that question is about who are you? Um, if you're a person who your dad yelled at you all the time as a kid, that fosters in you the belief that you are always wrong.

And so you create this identity for yourself through the memories, the stories and the scripts that I'm a person who's never right. And so, um, trusting your own opinion, trusting your inner authority, trusting what God is doing in you is almost impossible. So just having someone or having a reflection that you carry with you that reminds you of who you are as an alternative identity to the one you've been

given. So I think a lot about James Brian Smith has, uh, this wonderful meditation that he does where he talks, and he's modified it from Dallas Willard, which all of us in spiritual formation, and we're doing that all the time. Um, and it goes something like this. He says he just reminds himself, I am one in whom Christ dwells and delights. I live in the unshakable kingdom of God. And if the kingdom is never in trouble, then neither am I. And, I mean, that's

not a whole lot to remember. Although I had to work hard to remember that this morning. That's what getting older does to you, like, right? But something like that that you can access when you feel like you're just spinning and congregant. A, um, one of the churches I served in. I grew up really as a people pleaser. That was a huge part of my personality growing up. And I had my first congregation. There was a man who would show up every Monday morning at the same

time. Um, he would come and sit down in my office and tell Me everything that I had done wrong in the past week. And so, as a people pleaser, my goal was to try and figure out how do I make this guy happy? And thankfully, through my wife's having that other person, that objective viewpoint. But also just after sitting with God in that for a while, I realized, this isn't Casey. This has nothing to do with you.

>> Loren: Yeah. >> Casey Tygrett: You know, slide you out, put a different person in here. Yeah. This guy would be doing the exact same thing. This isn't about you. This is about a person who's really struggling with change because the story that they love is going away. The church and the world that they live in is changing. And so just being able in those moments to go, okay, just remember, you're one of whom Christ dwells and delights. You live in the unshakable kingdom. If the

kingdom's never in trouble, then neither are you. And that helps us move from step to step. That's not a fix, but it's a sustaining piece. It helps us get to the next session. And if people haven't done any work with this, if pastors haven't done any work with this before, um, it will get harder before it gets easier. Because you have been you for a very long time and an unexamined you. It's sort of like

cleaning out an old forgotten garage. Like, you got to start with the small stuff, and then you can get to the couches and the desks that are in the back that are decaying and moldy and all of that stuff. >> Loren: Yeah, that's so helpful. Even those two points. I'm reminded something, too. Something I've learned from, uh, a gentleman named Jack Chitama who does a lot in family systems theory is just the importance of being compassionately curious with yourself.

M. So I'll find myself. Sometimes I'm just pissed off, and I'm like, I've. I've been able to get into a space of a little bit where I can be like, lauren, why are you so upset? And I don't know if it. It doesn't, like, necessarily, like, bring down my frustration, but rather than just going into,

like, where I'm more angry or, like, I'm just beating up myself for being upset, I can just be like, okay, what's going on here? And again, that's all hard, right? That takes. Takes a lot. But I think these things is, like, realizing it probably doesn't have anything to do with you, and then having some kind of, like. Because, like, I've been in those meetings too, right? Like, they take a lot out of you. So can have just some little like recharger and I think

you can. This probably goes into the brain science, but I'm thinking some other authors I've read like having those words even though you're not necessarily like I wouldn't necessarily be believing those words in the moment when I'm saying them, um, after I've just getting beat up by a congregant. Like it, correct me if I'm wrong here, but it kind of triggers like some kind of muscle memory right. Where you're like, after you say your body's kind of like. Oh, I guess, I guess that is

true. Right. >> Casey Tygrett: Yeah. And the less rested you are mentally, physically, emotionally, the less likely your brain is going to be to choose the harder response. >> Loren: Right. >> Casey Tygrett: You will slide back to the default response, the one that you know best. So for me, in times of stress I go to people pleasing. >> Loren: Mhm. >> Casey Tygrett: Because that's the one that's easiest. Because my brain is

like dude, we got like three. It's like your hard drive barking at you like you can't save any more pictures. You got 4m more percent. When we're unrested and we are, you know, in those seasons of hurry, you only have about 4% hard drive space. And when it, when it comes to that, your body is so smart and so good at surviving, it will choose the easier response. So that's why

also being rested. I, you know, I think one very simple thing is for people who are in this spot, when uh, was the last time you got like seven or eight hours of sleep? >> Loren: Yeah. >> Casey Tygrett: It is much harder to critique your memories, remember your identity, deal with people who are forcing you back into old stories if you're barely there. And so a little bit of rest, literal physical rest could go a very long way.

>> Loren: Well, let's take a break and we'll come back with some closing questions. All right, we're back. Well, the book is the practice of remembering, uncovering places of memories in our spiritual life. Highly recommend it. Um, I mentioned this at the top. We're kind of at a hard

or I have to at least have a hard cut off. So rather than getting into somewhat serious, somewhat silly questions about being pope for day and such, I kind of made this time, uh, all, all main content, so share if you would just how people can connect with you. Uh, I want to know like Casey, do you have like an audio book? Because like I feel like you reading this book could just bring down some tension in folks lives just by itself.

>> Casey Tygrett: Yeah, there is an audiobook version of the practice for Memory, which is, which is wonderful. So, um, feel free to. You can find that on Amazon or wherever you get your books. And I did. I was able to read it, which doesn't always happen, but. And that was a unique experience. But, uh, you can find that where you get your books. If you're looking to connect with me, uh, I'm

on social media less and less these days. But uh, at kctigarette, my full first and last name or uh, my website, Casey, uh, tigret.com, there's some information there. You can connect with me that way, but those are the best ways to go. >> Loren: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for the conversation and uh, look forward to continuing and follow your work always. Uh, leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you. >> Casey Tygrett: Thank you. Appreciate the time.

>> Loren: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions, comments and ideas for future episodes. Visit our website@uh, future-christian.com and find the connect with us form at the bottom of the page to get in touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do us a favor. Subscribe to the pod to leave a review. It really helps us get this out to more people.

Thanks and go in peace.

>> Speaker D: Sh mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm

mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm mhm. >> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome M to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Casey Tigret to the program. Casey is a pastor and spiritual director who has lived in the Spiritual Formation conversation for the last two

decades. He is the author of Becoming Curious, a Spiritual Practice of Asking Questions, the Practice of Remembering, Uncovering the Place of Memories in Our Spiritual Life, and the Gift of Restlessness, A Spirituality for Unsettled Seasons. He is passionate about the soul health of leaders and the recovery of the transformational way of Jesus that is spiritual formation. He, his wife Holly and daughter Bailey live in

Chicago. A reminder before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email @uh laurensonatemediaprouh.com with comments, questions or ideas for future episodes. We appreciate your voice in how we faithfully discern the future of the church.