Callie Swanlund on Healing from Clergy Burnout

Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. I am your host for the summer season, Martha Tatarnik. And today I am very pleased to be joined by the Reverend Callie Swanlund for a conversation about her new book. Welcome to the podcast, Callie. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. I've been looking at what y 'all do and I'm really excited to be in conversation with you, Martha. Thanks, Callie. Well, we're going to set the stage a little bit here to begin with and just get to know you a little Callie.

So if you can start by just telling us a bit about the faith context in which you were raised, whether you were raised in the church or or not. so born and raised in the Episcopal Church. I actually, the church I was baptized at, I went back to in college when I was trying to start an Episcopal campus ministry at my university. And so kind of came around full circle after having. been away from that town for most of my growing up.

And so stayed in the Episcopal Church and after college went on to seminary and made a lifetime vocation out of it by becoming an Episcopal priest. Well, that sounds very similar to my trajectory, although I wasn't born in the Anglican church, of course, in Canada, it's Anglican. But yeah, about the age of seven or eight was when my family started. And yeah, so similar, similar life paths. That being said, you know, having spent your...

whole life basically in the same denomination. Do you have a sense of how being a Christian has changed for you or just changed in general over the course of growing up and living out your vocation? Absolutely. I mean, the church in a lot of ways was always my refuge, my safe space. I, you know, struggled with feelings of belonging in high school. I did have a number of friends across different friend groups, but it was, it was at youth gatherings and, and Diocesan.

church events where I was like, this is my real authentic self. And that's where my call was originally rooted, was wanting to have that experience of belonging, wanting to bring that experience of belonging to others. But in college, I was a women in gender studies minor. And I, a lot of those, people in my program really wanted nothing to do with religion or the church for a variety of reasons.

Some of them were so far left in their politics that they thought, you know, church and state, these don't have anything to say to each other. A lot of them had been hurt or been excluded because of their sexuality or gender identity.

And it was the same... affirmation of call that I had experienced in high school, but it was a shift on that because what those peers told me is they said, there's a place where someone who looks like you could be a leader and someone who looks like me could be welcomed in. And I realized that the belonging that I had taken for granted wasn't available to all. And... -hmm. That really has been a focus of my call, my ministry since.

And... there are so many things that have changed about the church, so many things that have changed about ministry or the nostalgia of what ministry used to look like, whether it actually did or not, I'm not sure. So there's a lot of nostalgia for the church that once was. And I sometimes feel that and experience that too. And I also feel excited about what is being pushed away to make room for something new. Hmm, that's beautifully said. I really love that.

Yeah. Again, you know, growing up in the mainline church and the Anglican church, as well as growing up in a small rural town, it was the church where I learned my most inclusive values that were quite in contrast to the small town in which I grew up. And it's a very different church. Formation experience than a lot of people have and again, it's easy to take that for granted. absolutely. Yeah, I'm grateful for that.

And I want to help ensure that others might feel included or feel like they have a place if they do choose to come into a church. Absolutely. And I think too, like, just an awareness of how even in the liberal mainline church, we're always still a work in progress and have new things to learn about inclusion all the time.

Can you tell us a bit about your current ministry context? I just lost you, Callie. You just went mute. Can you still hear me? okay. ask that question again? My dog ran in the room right as you were asking the question. He said, can you tell me more about your ministry context? Can we start that question again? I'm sorry. okay. Can you tell me a little bit about your current ministry context, Kali? Yeah, absolutely.

So the first almost decade of my ordained ministry, I served in pretty traditional parish -based ministry models, associate rector, senior associate rector, those sorts of things. And in 2018, I left full -time parish ministry. to try doing a hybrid of what I was feeling called to at that time was teaching, leading, creating, and gathering community and trying to figure out what all that looked like.

I thankfully had a loving congregation, a wonderful friend who was the rector of a parish where I was able to be half time in the parish. and half time building this creative ministry. And I was there for four years, which was such a gift. They were a loving congregation that understood their clergy having creative gifts and encouraged us to flourish. And what I thought I was doing pre -pandemic shifted.

quite a bit in the pandemic, I thought I was going to be building a brick and mortar co -working space for creatives to come together and have space to work with me on figuring out their spark, their dreams, their big gifts, and having space to create that in community with others and then share that. And what's funny is that even though... I felt really relieved to not have a brick and mortar space when March 2020 rolled around.

I realized that I could create all of those same things without having a building. I could still gather community. I could still help people find their spark. And so in the last couple of years, I've been fully employed by my own creative ministry, which is... my percentages are off. I usually say it's half this and half this and I add three extra things in. So creative ministry is not a 100 % calculation.

There's a lot more to it, but about half of my time and my focus is on doing companioning work. It's a hybrid of coaching and spiritual companioning. I'm trained in the work of Dr. Brene Brown. Yes. so I bring that skill set and I have numerous people that I companion because I think we all need companions on the journey. So between companioning and traveling around leading retreats, those are the two big pieces. But I am blessed to be at a congregation on Sundays.

They have a rector and so I'm not doing any of the administrative work. I'm showing up in. loving them and celebrating and preaching and being a pastoral presence. And it's just delightful. And so my ministry is a little bit of everywhere right now. And I love that. I love traveling to people. I love gathering with people all over the world. So far, my retreats have only been in the United States, but I'm hoping to expand beyond that. Yeah. Yeah. congratulations.

That sounds like a wonderful ministry context in which to serve. Is there, among all of that creative space that you're creating, is there a spiritual practice that you're finding particularly meaningful right now? Yeah. So when I launched my book a few weeks ago, I, and we'll talk about book stuff, I'm sure, in a moment, but I wanted a different experience than just a traditional book talk.

And so I invited people, it was completely optional, but I invited people to come to a, micro retreat beforehand. So it was an hour of micro retreat and an hour of a more traditional book talk, book signing, et cetera. And for the micro retreat, I brought in a local sound healing or sound bath practitioner who brought in the big singing bowls and set them on the labyrinth of the church and surrounded us in sound. And it was so beautiful. It was so beautiful.

And sound bath has been sound healing has been something that I've found grounding, especially in this past year. Sometimes I watch it on YouTube. If I can be immersed in it in person, I do that. But it's a great form of meditation for me because it's... somatic, it connects with our bodies and I immediately find calming and clarity of mind and just presence of the holy.

And so that's been one of my favorite newer spiritual practices that I've incorporated into, you know, other things like scripture and more traditional prayer. But I love There's just so much science out there on the healing powers of sound.

And I mean, we know that intuitively and we know that within the church world already that music and sound and vibrations and intonations are part of our tradition and have been one thing that has not changed much throughout the centuries is having an accompaniment of sound. Well, yeah, I mean, I find that very interesting the way that you kind of framed that as in contrast to more traditional prayer methods. But actually, it's quite an ancient way of praying, isn't it?

Yeah. Sometimes the ancient feels like it jars people a bit because they think it's something really new and different. But yeah, we're getting in touch with ancient roots, which I think is why my soul immediately feels at peace in those spaces. Yeah, beautiful. Okay, well, we are here today to talk primarily about your book. And it is called From Weary to Wholehearted, a restorative resource for overcoming clergy burnout. So I want to start with what inspired you to write this book.

This is definitely a recurring topic for us here at Future Christian.

We get a variety of perspectives from people in different parts of the church and different denominations around burnout question and what is really at the heart of that. What were you seeing and experiencing around clergy burnout that led you to write this book?

Yeah, I... being an individual companion to people and a retreat leader for people throughout the pandemic, I watched what to me felt like an alarming number of people come to me in some sort of ministry crisis, whether they were clergy or lay ministry professionals. A lot of them were leaving traditional contexts or taking leaps of absence. things that seemed just raised my antenna at first as to, okay, this seems more widespread than I had realized.

And, as you know, you know, clergy therapists, certain practitioners behind closed doors get a lot of the information that people aren't necessarily sharing at coffee hour or in, in casual conversation. And, And one of the things that a dear friend of mine, Heidi Carrington Heath, who is a UCC pastor, she and I put our heads together in fall of 2020 and said, how do we heap nourishment upon our sibling clergy, specifically on clergy women?

And we started this series of seasonal Advent and Lenten digital retreats and people were so hungry to gather together and just know that they weren't alone and know that their weariness was welcome there. And we called those love letters to our sibling clergy. And that plus this movement that I started years ago on social media called Wholehearted Wisdom. where I call it a weekly -ish reflection. It used to be weekly, but you know, life.

It's a weekly -ish reflection to push back on the vitriol and the isolation that we often encounter on social media and instead offer a reflection and some questions that I found that people, strangers would sort of engage with each other or encourage each other in the comments. I started this back in 2018. and just seeing the need for us to come together more alongside people just burning out. I wondered how, again, that question, how could I heap nourishment on people?

There are plenty of beautiful books out there on burnout that are more academic or clinical. And I really wanted a pastoral note that if people read nothing else, If they came away with nothing else after reading the book, they would at least come away with the feeling that they were not alone. And I hope they come away with all the tools and tips and everything else that I shared too.

But like at the very minimum, just normalizing their experience and saying what you are experiencing here is not unique. So, you know, I set out. to write that book that offered nourishment, that offered rest inside its pages, not just something to be consumed, but I wanted an embodied experience so that people felt refreshed. So in that like companioning space that you're creating, and I agree, I mean, it is amazing how much burnout and isolation can go hand in hand, isn't it?

But like, do you have a sense of where the greatest pressure points are for people in leadership in our church? I laugh a little bit because early in the process, I surveyed some clergy. Early in the process of writing, I surveyed a number of clergy to say, here are some things that I plan to address in this book, boundaries and isolation and loneliness and a sense of. helplessness or compassion fatigue. I listed off all these things and I said, what am I missing? You know, what, what else?

And I got really overwhelmed by the responses. A lot of them were systemic things. A lot of people were like, oppression, patriarchy, heterosexism. And I was like, absolutely, absolutely. And so in the book, I absolutely addressed those. But what I was looking for was also, those are external factors that are at play and absolutely need to be dismantled. And if I am the one experiencing burnout and weariness, I'm not gonna be able to be the one who does the dismantling of those things.

And so, I chose in my book to focus on some of the other ones that I was hearing, which, like I said, boundaries saying yes to some of the things that we love and know to some of the things that drain us, et cetera. I think... I think comparison and isolation slash loneliness are two of the biggest factors I see. And comparison works in a multitude of ways because we compare ourselves to people who are thriving as well as people who we perceive as... not as having a harder time than us.

And so we don't share our joys or our sorrows with one another. Success and failure is really hard to talk about in the life of the church. And, you know, what gets lost in all of that is not only the companionship piece, but an ability to learn, you know, like to be learning as we go. And my goodness, like in this time of transitional time in the life of the church, we need to be learning. Like, yeah. Yeah, and I feel like. There's so much to be said on that.

But if we're, I work with a number of people who I would put in the camp of weary clergy. And then I work with a few folks who would definitely be in the camp of thriving clergy. And they're struggling too, because like I said, they don't have spaces or outlets. A lot of people feel like they're, you know, flaunting it if they. say something about their thriving, which we should celebrate each other's joy. That's a gift too. That is something we're called to as well.

So I think it's just, and the literal isolation of the pandemic just caused people to go really, really interior. And I think we're learning to... Trust again, to be vulnerable again. Vulnerability is an interesting one too, because it's not just, vulnerability is so deeply important for personal growth and for relationship building. But if someone is... practicing vulnerability and they're also in a parish leadership role, then there's some questions of who can I be vulnerable with?

What can I share as a leader with my congregation about my struggles and what I'm going through as well? So for clergy or for someone sort of in an outward -facing serving role, there are very few spaces for them to be fully authentic. and that wears on people. Yeah, I really want to unpack that a little bit more because that has come up a couple of times in some of our other conversations around clergy burnout.

And I mean, I can certainly speak from my experience being in parish ministry that there is kind of this impossible ask of us, which is that like we do deeply love our people and we are on an authentic journey with them and we need to be in order to be effective in our work.

But at the same time, you know, we, when it comes to times of sorrow, when it comes to helping people through grief and anxiety and loss and so on, we suddenly have to be the professional who is the one who you know, holds it all together for the community who just like carries all of that in some kind of, well, professional way, right?

And I'm just wondering, like, what would you want faith leaders to hear about any practices or tips about how to manage that particular balancing act because it is tricky to say to say the least, right? Absolutely, it's tricky. Absolutely. Yeah, and... I will say to a lot of us are talking about how the church has changed and how ministry has changed since the start of the pandemic.

But there was another catalyst right around the start of the pandemic that I'm curious about in other parts of the Anglican Communion in Canada, but in the United States when George Floyd was murdered, that also sent a lot of people into this place of like, What am I doing to make a difference in this world? And that tension of holding their community and tending to their own needs as well.

And so one of the things, one of the many, many tips and tools that I share in my book is that one of my clients talks about her pit crew. And I love this metaphor. She talks about having a coach, a spiritual director and a therapist. And so the three of those are her pit crew. And I think the biggest thing is having a support system, sometimes of paid professionals.

And I've shared this at some conferences at some keynotes where people have said, you know, like, what if we don't have the resources for this? In the church, I believe we should be taking care of each other. If you're, you know, go to your bishop, go to someone and say, you know, please, please help me with these funds. But what I find about some paid professional relationships is for myself that it allows me the space to say, I don't need. to hold this other person here.

I care about my support professionals. I care about them deeply. But we have so many contexts, I think even in casual encounters with neighbors on the street, where we are just donning our pastoral persona and can't just be. So my recent example of this is, I just had to get hearing aids in the last few weeks. And part of the hearing aid process is that you go back and forth to the audiologist a few times to check the levels and everything.

And I was in a week or two ago, I was in my audiologist's appointment and she asked me how things were going. And, you know, she meant how things were going with my hearing aids. And I burst into tears in her office. And at first I thought, This is so strange. And then I thought, no, this makes complete sense. This is a professional who is holding space for me who I don't need to hold space for. And when she asked how things were going, I was able to show up fully for that.

So I think having spaces where we're not responsible for others. I usually have a few tears at the beginning of my retreats when I say, in this space, nothing is required of you. We have so many spaces, whether we are, I mean, I'm also a parent of a tween and a teen and have plenty of other areas of responsibility. And so even if I'm not working or writing or over the church preaching or whatever it might be, I am responsible pretty much all the time.

And so having spaces where you're not responsible. One more thing I'll add, because I could go on for hours on this. One of the central tenets of my book is retreat. And it's... Literally, retreat means time set apart. And I think we imagine that as four nights away at a monastery or some sort of retreat center or something. And that's lovely. I would love to send everyone on a retreat like that. And we've got to start with what's possible.

right in front of us, time -wise, money -wise, responsibility -wise, et cetera. You can have a 15 -minute retreat by closing a door, turning the healing sound bath YouTube channel on and meditating for 15 minutes. That is retreat. I talk about an on -ramp to retreat. I use this with my clients who are getting really crispy and about to burn out. or haven't been on a retreat in a long time or ever and I say, okay, I'm giving you three tasks.

Look at your calendar for the next week and find an hour. Find one open hour that you can claim for retreat or move something aside if you don't have a single open hour. That's possible for most people to find one hour in the next week. Now look at your calendar for the next month. and choose a half day option. Now look at your calendar for the next six to 12 months and choose a full day or an overnight option.

Like that on -ramp helps people feel like they can actually take that space away from all of the many, many responsibilities that we're carrying. Yeah, yeah, I hear that. I mean, I'm a runner. And one of the many benefits of being a runner, especially when I'm training for something is that I literally build into my schedule, like time for myself, right? Because I'm, I'm training and I have to do it.

And like it is just, you know, right, it's like tithing, it's like right off the top, that time is set aside. And like, it's time set aside to show up for myself. You know, one of the one of the things that you say in the book that I appreciate is like, rest is resistance. And there's a lot of just permission giving that I hear in your work about telling leaders, it is okay to show up. for yourself.

It is okay to claim your own needs in the midst of all of the other needs that you're trying to attend to. Why do you think that's so hard for us? I think we're really good at saying that to other people, right? But why is it so hard for us? Yeah. So many things are easier said than done. And I often sit in this seat and, you know, dole out permission or advice to others and then really need to look hard in the mirror and say, okay, I also need to receive that as well.

A note on the rest is resistance. I, you know, I borrowed that from Trisha Hersey and her work with the Knapp Ministry and highly commend, highly commend her work. But, you know. I think there are so many intersections here. A lot of the people I work with identify as women, not exclusively, but mostly. And so you also have, often you have gender expectations and other things in there, which only fully solidify the I have to be everything to everyone all the time. Mm -hmm.

So, but I would say it goes beyond gender. There are plenty of people who have elders or children in their care, others that feel like, you know, even if I could take time away from work, I can't justify taking time away from these other people. We are in, we live in a capitalistic society that, tells us that what we produce is who we are. And we go around it and we ask each other, it's so nice to meet you. What do you do? What do you do? What do you do, right?

And so there's already this like built in societal push for production and excellence. And... Then there's a whole chapter we could have another podcast on just the influence of shame alone that goes along with comparison like I talked about earlier. But we all have these unwanted identities and they are things like the voices that go through our head that maybe someone said to us as a child or we somehow internalized. things like, well, you're lazy or you're not working hard enough.

You're not working to your full potential, whatever voices those might be. They're wicked and evil and they stick with us and they come out especially in times of stress. So if we're already in a time of stress and we encounter. a negative internal voice. We're more likely to believe it or less likely to examine that it's even an identified even as shame.

And so what I struggle with with people who are needing that rest and looking for that permission is that they don't trust and believe that they deserve it. Like that's a basic building block of that.

Yeah, I mean, I think that all of those insights are probably extremely important, not just in the people that you work with, but for any of the people who are listening into this conversation to be able to do that deep dive into their own inner voices and what prevents us from kind of claiming our own needs. I want to make sure that before we wrap up our conversation that you have a chance to break down that word spark for our listeners because you did mention it at the outset.

It is a pretty important organizing principle of the book and each of the letters in the word spark stand for something. A nice little way of reminding ourselves of different ways that we can get grounded and nourished. yeah, absolutely. So I started several years ago talking about our purpose, our meaning as our spark. And I found that a lot of people understood that much better than church lingo, like vocational discernment. Right?

And so I viewed this spark practice that I put at the center of my book as a catalyst, a spark is a catalyst, right? Like it's not, it's a fire starter. It's not the whole thing. So I've just wanted people to have some things to, things that you can grab onto. even today, like they don't require a bunch of equipment, they don't require a bunch of prep. What can you do to start yourself on a journey toward flourishing? So the SPARK have a different practice that goes with each.

S is nurture mysoma, which is body, which side note in... the Greek New Testament, Soma appears like 140 times and it's not just relating to our human body, but also the constellations, the, yes, the body of stars. And so nurture my Soma is the bodily part. Engage in preparation is more of the mental part, but it includes things like, mindfulness practice. I call it the least sexy spoke of this wheel because preparation often is met with like a eye roll.

But preparation is what I think of our Jewish siblings engaging in when leading up to the Sabbath. They don't just arrive on Saturday and say, just taking today off. They do a lot of prep work to prepare the meals. and run the errands ahead of time so that they can truly engage in that deeply important work of Sabbath. The center letter A is awe, make space for awe. And it's absolutely the center. This is the spiritual piece.

Awe helps us know that we are part of something so much bigger than us. And... that helps us feel more connected when we feel isolated from things. So, so far you've got mind, no, body, mind and spirit with the first three. So the fourth one is claim retreat. It's that time set apart. And the fifth one is ground myself in kinship, which I would say is opposite of retreat.

It's sort of going, going back toward deep connection with others, but also, our indigenous siblings would describe kinship as our tether, our invisible string as Caitlin Curtis would say, with the earth. So how do we deeply connect? That's kinship. So I feel like a balance of Soma preparation, awe, retreat and kinship. would be a robust spiritual practice if we were to weekly sort of look at, am I attending to all of these things in some way, shape or form?

All of them are things that lead to health, to rest. They're the sorts of... positive experiences that beget more positive experiences because we know that negativity begets more negativity. So things like awe, once we start searching for awe, once we start claiming awe, we notice more things that bring us awe. So all of these are things that build on the previous as well. Yeah, I really like that breakdown because it isn't prescriptive. It's not like, okay, you need to tick all five boxes.

It's about like being holistic. It's about recognizing that these things kind of need to exist in balance with one another. Absolutely, absolutely. It's like the food pyramid got thrown out a long time ago. And they started saying, this was a relief for parents. They said, if your kids aren't eating vegetables every day, that's fine. What we're looking for is a balance throughout the course of a week. Are they eating vegetables some days? Are they eating fruit some days?

Does it round out at some point? We're just looking for... a for it to round out and for people to feel nourished. I use that word over and over again, because I think nourished, it makes my soul feel held. There's something about nourished that requires, even if it's toward yourself, it requires a holding, it requires an intentionality.

So just quickly before we wrap up this section of our conversation and take a quick break, I know that you said earlier, like, we are not exactly as individuals equipped to dismantle whole systemic toxic problems. But I do wonder, like, if we just kind of focus on the system of the church, would there be like,

one or two things that you would like to see changed systemically in the church that would foster wellness for our leaders. Because you are very much concerned about what we can, like empowering individuals, what we can do as individuals, but we do exist within systems that can be quite toxic. So like if you could wave a magic wand, what would it be? Yeah. I think there's... There is still a narrative that church equals gospel.

And I don't know that all bodies of faith are functioning with the gospel at their forefront with as our presiding Bishop Michael Curry would say, if it's not about, if it's not about God, it's not about, if it's not about love, it's not about God. It's not about love, it's not about God. Where's the accountability for the bad behavior?

And I'm not just talking about, we have accountability for the big bad behaviors, but the ways that we allow vesture members or parishioners to treat their clergy. And there's no, you know, they can come and yell at clergy, but clergy can't or shouldn't, quote unquote, shouldn't behave that way back toward our parishioners. Well, where's the part, where's the biblical principle that we, if someone sinned against us, we go to them in private. And then if they continue.

we bring another person and then if they continue, we bring the whole community. I think that there's gotta be accountability for being members of community together. That even if we disagree on things, how are we acting in love toward each other or in respect toward one another? Our baptismal covenant, in our baptismal covenant, we vow to respect the dignity of every human being.

So in some ways, I'd like us to have more accountability and what Brene Brown calls brave conversations, which everyone seems to like get really nervous when I start talking about brave conversations, but brave conversations allow us to repair brokenness in community. They allow us to call out things that are. harmful to ourselves or to others. They allow us to come to an empathetic understanding of one another. So that is one of the big things that I advocate for and lead people into.

Yeah, I think that those brave conversations are just so important in anxious systems, you know, to hold ourselves to brave conversations because there is so much anxiety around decline, around secularism, around saving the institution. And those brave conversations are just going to become more and more essential if we are going to. have any prayer of having a glimmer of living the gospel through it all, right? Like I really co -sign that.

Okay, well, let's close there, take a quick break and we'll come back for our rapid fire questions. Okay, sounds great. Alright, you're okay for a few more minutes. I am, I am, I'm enjoying this. Thank you very much. Yeah. Yeah, me too, Callie. Okay, so we'll just give it five seconds and then we'll come back. Welcome back to Future Christian Podcast. I continue to be with Callie Swanland in our conversation around her book, From Weary to Wholehearted.

And we're just going to close out with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready, Callie? I think so. Okay, well, if you were Pope for a day, what would that day look like? If I were Pope for a day, is that the question? Wow. Okay. Yeah. as not as you want. I would go to those faithful, dedicated women who have been working toward women's inclusion and ministry in the Catholic Church, and I would just go and have a mass ordination of them and tell them what a blessing their gifts are. Good job.

Okay, I'll come along for that ordination. Send me an invitation. What theologian or historical Christian figure would you want to meet, have supper with, bring back to life? Gosh. I think one of the, my gosh, so many options, but rapid fire, I would just say, I would say Julian. Like I would love to talk to an early church mother and understand what their experience was like. And also some of the mystics, visions are quite radical. So, right? I mean, so radical.

I'd love to talk to some of the mystics and early church mothers and just have a roundtable with them and feel empowered by them. Yeah, I think you can invite more than one guest to this supper table, for sure. What will history remember from our current time and place? I pray that... It's like the Mr. Rogers thing that they remember the helpers that they remember the people that stand up for the weary and the oppressed and the war torn. That is my hopeful outlook.

I am so weary when I look at the ways in which we are tearing ourselves down and tearing each other apart right now. So please God, you know, give us the strength to to stand and to change that history, to see the people who are making a difference, the college students who are standing up for what they believe in, the incredible, the generation, Gen Z is just giving me so much hope for what's ahead. Yeah, I love that choosing a hopeful and prayerful slant on that answer. That's great.

And just along those same lines, what are your hopes for the future of Christianity? Hmm. I, my dear friend, Hilary Reining, keeps talking about this time as the 500 year Renaissance, and I'm really excited about what that looks like. I think that Sunday morning worship will still remain a central tenet, but I don't know. that it's going to be the end all and be all of how we gather. And I'm actually really excited about that.

I'm really excited to see the ways in which we gather in expansive, not yet dreamed of ways that we are able to get outside of our rigid expectations and boxes of Christianity and truly, truly, be disciples who live out Jesus's radical love and aren't afraid to invite others into that. Beautiful. And finally, where can people find out more about you, Callie? Yeah, so I am Kali Swanland, which I'm sure will be printed in the podcast title.

I am the only Kali Swanland out there as far as I've ever been able to find. So Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, find me at Kali Swanland. Find me at kaliswanland .com, where I also sell fun t -shirts with progressive faith slogans on them, like Peace Be With You and some fun seasonal ones that I share on there. So you'll find all of that on kallyswanlin .com and you can email me from there or invite me out to your neck of the woods. I love collaborating.

I love seeing people of faith in their own contexts. There's a lot of good and there's a lot of flourishing out there. Thank you so much, Callie. I really appreciate our conversation today. I really appreciate the work that you have put into this book offering and the wonderful work that you're doing in your ministry. We always end with a word of peace. So Callie, may God's peace be with you. think God's peace be with you. And my dog, my dog did that.

And the mail carrier who just came, there is no peace for them. Thank you.