Episode 9: Fear God, Flee Sin

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Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further. I'm Brenton Grimm, and today I am here with Chris Carr and we have a new guest, Christian Frey. How's it going, guys?

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Christian
It's going good. Good to be here.

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Brenton
Yep. I'm glad to be here, too. Christian, appreciate your message this weekend. A lot of it's a good way to wrap up this kind of section of Romans three and a lot of bummer news, but a lot of good news coming next week. So I appreciate that. I got to ask, though, why didn't you get your Timothy Award?

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Brenton
And also, what is the Timothy Award?

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Christian
Yeah, I actually just learned that there there's you can get the honor Timothy Award. I didn't know this. Wow. Yeah. So Timothy, turns out isn't the end all be all but for my understanding, it's Timothy Ord was I mean, it was the biggest award you could get, like physically at AWANA, and you got it after completing all your books from Cubbies through Sparks, chums and chiefs, I don't even know the levels anymore because my church stopped doing Awana when I was in Sparky's Bomber, so I didn't even get my Sparks plaque, which was just because my sister did.

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Chris
Yeah, you're a failure.

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Brenton
Complete failure.

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Christian
I look at her as man with such and such lust in my heart. What could have been.

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Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. Tough, tough loss. I would say.

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Christian
Harmony hard me nonetheless. Yeah.

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Brenton
Yeah. Thankfully, I was just there for the bean bag game, so.

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Christian
Yeah.

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Chris
Foursquare. The Pinewood Derby.

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Christian
Yeah, I.

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Brenton
Did that a few years. So. Good. Yeah. Patient that I have. All right, so let's jump right in. One one thing that you said in your sermon was Our unrighteousness is actually good news, and I'd like to expand on this a little bit. The theological term for this is Felix Culpa, which means fortunate fall. And it says that the fall back in Genesis was was ordained by God because of the much greater good that would come by the redemption of his people through Christ.

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Brenton
What are your thoughts on this and do you agree? Do you disagree?

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Christian
Yeah, I would say absolutely agree with that concept. And I really like how it starts to kind of get into some of the implications of the doctrine of the Trinity, because the doctrine of the Trinity would suggest that God, the Father, God, the son got the spirit right. There's three separate but equal parts. One God, and they have to exist in a manner that they were they were all together, both in eternity past, and they'll be all together in eternity.

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Christian
A future. You know, John, one in the beginning was the word. Word was with God. That word was God. He He was in the beginning with God. And then, like Luke ten, Jesus says, I saw Satan fall like lightning. So even before there was creation, you know, when Satan fell, Jesus, we have Jesus saying that he was there.

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Christian
So again, before there was any creation, before there was any man for there to fall the Trinity, they had to, you know, they had to get together and figure out how is this going to work, which I think is pretty incredible because, again, it sets the stage for this complicated, yet beautiful and profound grand narrative of scripture, which is the story of redemption.

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Christian
And I think it's him. There is a fountain, you know, redeeming love has been my theme and shall be till I die. This concept, it sets the stage for that, for that redeeming love.

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Brenton
Yeah, it's really interesting to go back to the Trinity and see their their motives or his motive. Right. I got to be careful with my heresies here. Yeah. Any thoughts, Chris?

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Chris
I would agree. As as long as we understand that when we say.

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Brenton
That.

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Chris
The fall was ordained by God, that that doesn't mean that we believe that God is the author of evil.

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Brenton
Sure.

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Chris
That rather God allowed man to fall into sin. He allowed evil to come into this world and he allowed the fall to take place. And so as long as we keep that in mind, yes, it is true that our unrighteousness magnifies the the righteousness of God. It also our in righteousness, as we're going to see here in coming weeks, magnifies the love of God, the grace of God, the mercy of God, and enables us to know his love and mercy and grace in a way that we would never have known if the fall had not taken place.

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Chris
And so not only does our unrighteousness magnify the the righteousness, the glory of God, but that's really maybe from from God's perspective and from our perspective. And these two things go together, but from our perspective of we know the love of God in a way that we wouldn't have known before if there hadn't have been the fall, because it's in God's for God demonstrates His love to us.

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Chris
And this and that. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. ROMANS five eight. And so, in fact, we wouldn't have known anything of of mercy or grace without the fall, because we wouldn't have needed either of those things. And so as long as we keep in mind that the God we say he ordained the fall, that doesn't mean that he authored it.

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Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. I think that this is this is a complaint levied against religion. A lot is the problem of evil. So you have people that are they're saying, look, you can't have a God who is all all good and he's all powerful when there's evil in the world because he wouldn't allow it. And so this this idea of this fortunate fall and God, God gaining the most glory and us on our side, experiencing the most love and mercy, is the only consistent explanation for this that I've that I've experienced.

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Brenton
And so, yeah, that's that's good, right?

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Chris
And I mean, there are other things that we could we could talk about here. One thing is, is that evil creates a greater problem for atheists than it actually does for believers. And evil creates a problem for believers. You know, we don't have all the answers for why God allows the evil in the world, but the atheists have an even bigger problem.

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Chris
So what? What is their answer to evil? They don't. They don't have.

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Brenton
One. Yeah.

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Chris
And so we at least have some answer and some pretty good answers to it. And so I'd also point out that we've got to be careful here because to think that we are going to know all the reasons why a an infinite wisdom, holy or wise God is going to allow certain things and he he undoubtedly has purposes that we don't know.

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Chris
And to assume that we we do know or we can figure out all those is actually to put our selves above him.

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Brenton
Mm hmm.

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Christian
Yeah, that's good.

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Brenton
Great. In verse five, Paul says, I speak in a human way. What? What does he mean by that?

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Christian
Yeah, I think it's way. It's his way of making kind of a clean break in the letter to say, Look, understand? I don't believe this. I'm certainly not teaching it or endorsing it, but some of you are prone to believe it. And so, yeah, it's kind of like it's kind of like in the office, like, you know, the characters always break the fourth wall.

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Christian
They look at the camera and it like humanizes them and it's like, Oh, yeah, they're a real person. Sure. I think that's kind of what Paul's doing here. We're two questions in and I'm referencing the office. Is this is he's.

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Brenton
Doing his Kevin Warren impression.

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Christian
But no, I mean, it's a very personable way. He's trying to, I think, relate to them without condoning or allowing them to to think they're they're in the right with with their false doctrines. Yeah.

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Chris
Yeah. I think it's clear throughout many opposed letters that he had opponents all over the place. And often times people would note he says here people slander Asli charge us with saying I think that they're they're very likely were people who were saying, oh, this poor guy and he's talking about Greece. So that means that we should go on this sinning so that God's grace may abound.

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Chris
And so they were he was, you know, certainly an apostle of Greece. And so his opponents use that against him sometimes. So I don't know that he's got any specific people in mind here. He very well may it might just be a general kind of thing that people would combat him with.

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Brenton
Yeah, good. So speaking of that verse eight, he says, As some people slander Asli, charge us with saying and you you had said that you didn't think there was any indication of who was saying that necessarily, but there presumably was a group of people that didn't appreciate Paul talking about Grace.

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Chris
Correct. And I don't think it's necessarily in Rome. Could be very well in the churches of Galatia, could be places like Corinth, could be in any of a number of the different cities or. Paul Minister.

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Brenton
Sure. Okay. John DeLuca, who preached in Burlington, brought up the term total depravity, and it's going to be hard to get through Romans three without talking about total depravity. So, Chris, would you explain what it is and also what it isn't and maybe talk about the scope of this doctrine a little?

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Chris
Sure. So depravity essentially means that there's no part of our being that is not affected by the fall. And so does not mean utter depravity. It doesn't mean that we are as bad as we possibly could be. That's that's normally what people think of when they hear the word total depravity. He's totally depraved. You know, people use that language.

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Chris
And when we say that, oftentimes we mean that person. They're just as bad as they possibly could be. That's not what total depravity is. Total gravity means that there's there's no part of our being that has not been touched by sin and therefore no part of us that we can look to to justify ourselves before God. So we can come back in.

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Chris
If I can use a Hitler as an example, because he always gets used as an example. Believe it or not, Hitler wasn't utterly depraved.

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Brenton
Yeah.

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Chris
That he wasn't as bad as he possibly could be. It could have been worse now. He was terrible. And this is actually where we we have you know, you talk about God's restraint, that God restrains us from being as evil and as bad as we can, as bad as the world is. It would be worse if it were not for God's restraining really grace in us.

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Chris
And and so the truth, though, is, again, I'll go back to this total depravity is just referring to. There's nothing that we can look to to justify ourselves before God. We're going to see this week. Romans three, 23 four. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We don't measure up, and so we're not as bad as we could be.

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Chris
We're not all bad there. There are good parts of of really of everybody there. There are there are good aspects of us. But this really goes back. It's really tied to the doctrine of original sin. And so the fact that in in all of us, we have Adam's nature. In us, we have a sin nature. And that means that we we stand, you know, unrighteous before God and incapable of earning his favor.

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Brenton
On our own. Yeah. Any thoughts?

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Christian
Yeah. No, that's all really good. In my prep, something that I learned or notice through through some commentator with commentators was specifically in verse nine. There's the phrase Jews and Greeks are under sin. And one commentator writes that, you know, it's singular sin. They're not plural sins because it's getting to the fact that we are under this nature of sin.

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Christian
We're under the law of sin. So it's not a matter of you have these, you know, skeletons in my closet or these these thing, these bad habits that I need to clean up in my life. It's bigger than that. The the seeing singularity of our in nature is what leads to the plurality of our sinful habits. And Paul?

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Christian
Yeah, Paul gets to the heart of that. I think here in this specific chapter.

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Chris
That that's a really good way to put it might be helpful. I've used this before. Ask the question, Are we sinners because we sin or do we sin because we are sinners? And the answer to that is, is that we we are sinners. And therefore that's why we send.

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Brenton
You.

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Chris
Know, we do sin because we are sinners. But but originally we sin because we are sinners by birth and so on. 51 David talks about in sin. My mother conceived me and I think actually maybe that's going to go on to the next question. We're going to we're going to wrestle with it. But David was a sinner from conception before he was even even born, and that's because he is human and is a son of Adam like the rest of us.

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Brenton
Amen. Yeah. Yeah. And I've heard this this term. I know that total depravity can be confusing, just as a just as a label for a for belief. But I've heard it also called total inability. And I think that that that kind of helps paint the picture of, look, we are totally unable to save ourselves because of this original sin.

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Brenton
And so I think that's kind of helpful. But also to to kind of put this up against the opposite view, which is called semi pillaging ism, where the the belief is that original sin doesn't really doesn't even affect us, that we actually start in a neutral state. And so there are there are many other camps that would have different thoughts on this that we we in our we in our evangelical camp would would stick to this understanding that we do not start in a neutral state.

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Brenton
We start in a state under the wrath of God. And so there's an important distinction there. And it has a lot to do with what we believe of what Jesus did for us and what salvation does for us.

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Chris
Right? Thanks for bringing up total inability. That's a great way to.

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Brenton
To put it.

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Chris
Probably the best way to explain it. And I think we should also recognize that in our world today and honestly, often I think it's in the churches, we have this idea that people are inherently good.

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Brenton
Yeah.

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Chris
And total depravity, total inability says the exact opposite. We are inherently wicked and evil. And that's what Paul is hammering home and in Romans one, two and three, and he's hammering at home. So clearly that you have to wonder why any anyone in the church would would think that we are inherently good. But it's that's what we want to believe.

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Chris
We don't want to believe that we're inherently bad, inherently evil and unable to save ourselves.

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Brenton
But we kind of grade on a curve, right, when we're comparing ourselves against other people. Hitler. Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah, absolutely. He's not Hitler. Yeah, right, exactly right. But but when we compare ourselves against God's law, that's. It's. It's obvious.

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Christian
Yeah.

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Chris
Well, that's how he ends in Romans 328 by the works of the law, no one will be justified.

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Brenton
Right.

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Chris
And really, that simply means is that it's not by our works, not not by anything that we do, that we can justify ourselves before God. And as I've tried to make the point for weeks now, we're only going to appreciate the glory of the gospel and what God has done for us in Christ. If we truly understand our total inability to save ourselves and great.

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Brenton
One of your application points, Christian, was that we need to earnestly confess our sin. And in verse four, Paul quotes from Psalm 51. This is David Psalm, following up the affair with the Sheeba in the murder of her husband. The portion he quote says against you, You only have sinned and done what is evil in your sight so that your that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment.

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Brenton
I think repentance would be an appropriate response for us as a church and individually after being just constantly indicted by the word for the past few weeks. And we can learn a lot about repentance from some 51. So what what was the significance of Paul quoting the Psalm and what can we learn from David here?

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Christian
Yeah, well, you know, as you mentioned, he has this affair with with Bathsheba really assaults her and then, you know, kills her husband. And it's repulsive and it's vile. But to see David turn to God from that sin again, as heinous as it may have been, he he repents, he takes it to God. It's pretty striking. And so then it becomes like, yeah, how much how much more should I turn to God?

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Christian
And I think that's kind of Paul's point here. When you have unchecked sin, when you have anger, lust, because God's faithfulness isn't contingent whatsoever on our faithlessness. He's faithful regardless and through it all. And so I think, yeah, so Paul's submitting David's example is kind of a great, a great representation of what our hearts should be bent to do.

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Christian
And that's kind of on the micro-level, really on the macro level. King David is a great model of repentance throughout the course of his life, especially compared to his his kind of counterpart. King Saul, in the context of like first Samuel, we see David regularly just broken by his sin, whereas Saul in the earliest set point, Chris, he drew this out last spring or summer when we were when we were preaching through Samuel, saying that, you know, David regularly responds to God by recognizing his sin and repenting.

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Christian
And again, we never really see Saul doing that. And so, you know, David's notoriously considered a man after God's own heart. And I'm sure there's been much, you know, ink spent trying to decipher what exactly that means. But perhaps a big component of it is he was a man who was quick to repent and God desires that from for most children.

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Brenton
Yeah.

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Chris
Yeah, that's really good. I would just add, if if you go to Psalm 51 and he quotes verse four of Song 51 and then the very next verses behold I was fourth in iniquity and then send it, my mother conceived me. And so he really goes from the specific to the general. So in verse four, he's, you know, he's talking in a plot and maybe I should say it this way that applies specifically to David's situation.

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Chris
But then in verse five, we can apply it to all humanity, is that all of us was were brought forth in iniquity. We were all conceived in in sin. We were a sinner from conception. And so I think that's what Paul's trying to get to here is like like God is justified in his judgment of us because of our sin and that's he really I think anytime Paul's quoting a passage in the New Testament or any of the New Testament offers, I think they would want us to go back to the text and try to understand the context of what's going on there.

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Chris
And so as we come back to to the situation and in this, Christian said David and Sheeba. Okay, what's going on there? And then we see here in verse five, that's not only David, it was a sinner. It's all.

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Brenton
Of us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think if you start up in, in verse one, it one thing that I find interesting is have mercy on me. Oh, God. According to your steadfast love, according to your abundant mercy. And and he's not he's not trying to escape any sin that he's that he's committed. He's he's not avoiding anything.

00;22;44;18 - 00;23;09;22
Brenton
He's he's saying don't don't judge me fairly. Judge me according to your mercy, because I deserve I deserve justice. And so, yeah, I think I think one thing we can learn from this is that we there's no reason to hide or sin that we need to go to God and confess and and seek repentance.

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Chris
Yeah, I this makes me think of Psalm chapter two, and it's an interesting one because you read them first kind of glance you might was was he talking about. But it ends in, in verse 12 it says Kiss the sun lest you be angry and you perish in the way for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

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Chris
So this is David, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is is actually referring the Sun capital. So and and we seen here kiss the sun and let's you be angry and you perish in the way for his wrath is quickly kindled but then blessed are all who take refuge in him. And what he's telling us here is there's no refuge from him, only in him.

00;24;00;14 - 00;24;24;05
Chris
Now, why am I bringing that on? What's about repentance? We kiss the sun, We we, we bow before him. We seek him in repentance. And as we do it says, blessed are all who take refuge in him. So when and you go back to Psalm 51, when we repent and we go to the Lord and we we fall on His mercy and steadfast love, that's what we get.

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Chris
But when we when we we don't, we we're remain under the wrath of God. And so his rainbow backed Psalm to hope you follow along with me here, but Psalm to kiss him for his wrath is quickly kindled. He's he's angry at our sin. And so there's no refuge in running from him, only to him.

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Brenton
Yeah, we're going to get to that soon of God being the just and the justifier in Romans.

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Christian
To resist God's kindness is what draw you straight. Repentance. Again, I think that's it's pretty remarkable.

00;25;05;03 - 00;25;33;07
Brenton
It's great. Another one of your application points was experience God's glory. I think a lot of us at certain times in our life just have felt like the Christian religion is mostly duty. Maybe this has been perpetuated by the church, you know, do this, don't do that, do this better. And and I love what you said because we we certainly shouldn't ignore our responsibilities worsen.

00;25;33;24 - 00;25;50;11
Brenton
But but we should agree with David in Psalm 119 when he says, Lead me in the path of your commandments, for I delight in it. So how would you encourage someone who struggles with constant duty and no delight?

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Christian
Yeah, it's a really good question. Honestly, there's I certainly feel this in my own life in varying degrees. I think a great place to start is like, What are you doing with your free time, your downtime? Because like you said, we have responsibilities, we have jobs and marriages and kids and relationships and we can't neglect those, but they do let up at some point.

00;26;15;24 - 00;26;46;03
Christian
And so then it becomes, okay, what what are you doing with your time when when you you know, you have some freedom and you have some availability because it's so easy just to to do insignificant things that waste time and that don't honor, honor God and even honor ourselves with that time. So, you know, it's fine to scroll and on social media or YouTube or whatever, it's fun to play video games and do those sorts of things, stream media, you name it.

00;26;46;24 - 00;27;11;03
Christian
But if that's all you're ever really doing with your free time, I think you're inevitably going to feel like everything else is a duty, including you walk with the Lord. And so, yeah, I think start there. Like what are your hobbies or what are the things that you do with your time that are productive, whether it's just, you know, getting up and unloading the dishwasher or cleaning the closet out.

00;27;12;07 - 00;27;46;29
Christian
But more fully, you know, and I kind of talk through some of this, but having a hobby like something in the arts or cooking or, you know, going outside. And that's honestly, I think, a big part of how we experience the glory of God and the delight of God is just being in his creation. Romans 120 It says, First, since the creation of the world, God's invisible qualities, eternal powers, my nature has been clearly seen being understood from what He has made so that people are without excuse.

00;27;46;29 - 00;28;09;09
Christian
So we see God in His creation. We see these invisible qualities become visible because of the created world. Some 18 right? The skies proclaim the work of his hands. So just getting outside, there's something that happens where we feel the the nearness of God. We feel the delight of God just seeing the world that He's created for us really to to enjoy.

00;28;09;22 - 00;28;31;05
Christian
And there's not even, you know, I'm I'm speaking of it in terms of spirituality. There's even scientific and biological advantages that people can objectively trace to the benefit of fresh air and taking a walk and, you know, getting out in the woods and stuff. So I think it's it's important not to to minimize that, especially with our culture that tends to be pretty distracted by technology.

00;28;31;16 - 00;28;55;06
Christian
And then something. Chris, I'd love for you to to expound on this because it's kind of your your spiel, but practicing his presence, you've encouraged our staff to learn to do that better. And, you know, I think Exodus 34, it's like the ultimate example of this because Moses literally sees God when he's up in Sinai and he comes down and his face is shining and like, people are freaked out, right?

00;28;55;25 - 00;29;14;08
Christian
They have no idea what's going on. And, you know, Moses, you could just visibly see that he had been with God. And it obviously can't happen to that degree for us. But I do think if you're able to to really lean in, to delighting in God's presence, it can it can change everything about your life. It can change your whole countenance.

00;29;14;26 - 00;29;28;06
Christian
It can change just the kind of person you are. And so, yeah, yeah, good Christian to find kind of that practicing, practicing his presence, if you remember saying that and maybe, you know, talking about it, I say.

00;29;28;06 - 00;29;51;10
Chris
A lot of things and not remembering them less and less as I get older. But I can talk about this for a long time, probably could do an entire episode. So I'll just try to be succinct. But the first thing that comes to mind, you quoted first Corinthians 1031. Yeah, your message on Sunday. So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, you do all to the glory of God.

00;29;51;25 - 00;30;17;07
Chris
And so I think we one of the reasons that it can become duty to us is we just tend to think of like our relationship with God and in our pursuit of Him as his only, you know, going to church and reading our Bible and praying. And you know, sacrificing and and those are all important and significant elements.

00;30;17;07 - 00;30;39;12
Chris
But I think for a lot of people, they they need to just recognize that all of life is worship or it is all worship. You're worshiping something, but that we can worship God in in everything that we're doing. We can worship him as we're eating. We can worship him as we're hunting and we can worship him as we're shopping.

00;30;39;13 - 00;31;09;04
Chris
We can worship him as we're playing the guitar or an instrument. We can worship him as we're watching a sporting event, as we're playing with our grandkids, as we're outside taking a hike and all that. And so for me, part of this practicing the presence of God is understanding that that God is his everywhere. And as believers, He's always with us and looking for I mean, not thinking that, okay, I've got to read the Bible in this memoir.

00;31;09;04 - 00;31;35;15
Chris
I've got to have a prayer that I'm specifically, you know, consciously thinking about in this moment. But just to recognize that that life is a gift and this moment is a gift. And how how do I recognize God thank him? You know, one of the things I didn't really talk about much in Romans chapter one, but it's interesting that he says because they didn't thank God he gave them up.

00;31;36;11 - 00;32;03;18
Chris
They could see God, but they didn't thank him. And I can't just emphasize how important that is. We can we can see God in nature. We can see him in this world. If we're willing to look. And what should our first response be? Be Thanksgiving. And so I would just really begin with that. And it's hard because our minds get distracted and we get focused on other things.

00;32;03;18 - 00;32;06;01
Chris
But if we can just begin to more and.

00;32;06;01 - 00;32;06;17
Brenton
More.

00;32;07;23 - 00;32;57;19
Chris
See in the current moment that that we are in, that God is with us and we can delight in in Him and his presence and the the things that he's provided for us and and just yeah. Be able to, to begin there. And then I would transition from that. I think it's this is a good place to point out that all of us are hardwired to pursue happiness that that that we are we're trying to pursue happiness and that we need to come to an understanding that we're only truly going to be fulfilled in that pursuit if we find that happiness our delight in God, because that's what we were made.

00;32;58;02 - 00;33;22;21
Chris
So Saint Augustine probably his most famous quote, or at least the one I've heard the most often. Our hearts are restless until they find their rest in him. Actually, he said the you know, you separate anymore. But our hearts are restless until they find their rest in the air. And that's just we just got to understand that it's like I want to encourage everybody.

00;33;22;22 - 00;33;52;22
Chris
We should long to be happy and to be defined alike. So John Piper calls this Christian hedonism. He said we should all be hedonistic, but we should recognize that we're only going to truly find satisfaction in fulfillment in God. He's that's what he's created. He's created to be hedonistic. We we search for it because of the fall in all kinds of other things, idols.

00;33;54;04 - 00;34;07;04
Chris
The only place it's truly found is in the Lord and that we actually and this is Piper's most famous aim, God's most glorified in us, when we are most satisfied in him.

00;34;08;00 - 00;34;08;04
Brenton
Yeah.

00;34;08;09 - 00;34;34;05
Chris
And if you there was a book that the Lord literally used to change my life and to to honestly sort of manage rectory ministry was was Piper's book Desiring God. Now that's a thick book to read and it can be difficult to get through. So if you want kind of a shorter version, there's he has a book called The Dangerous Duty of Delight and will be a great place to start.

00;34;34;17 - 00;35;00;09
Brenton
Okay, That's good. Going back to what you said before, I think the way you described how well a lot of us kind of deal with religion in our minds, it kind of compartmentalize or different practices. And I think that that really lends itself to feeling duty. I mean, if we if we have our religion box over here and we just have to say, okay, these are the things I have to do this week.

00;35;00;23 - 00;35;21;22
Brenton
I have to go to church, I have to read, I have to pray, then it just becomes a checklist and that is a duty. But but when all of life is worship and we've we've understood that and in practice that then that that life becomes something very different than checking off boxes. Mm hmm. Yeah.

00;35;22;02 - 00;35;54;22
Christian
Yeah, that that phrase. I'm glad you guys brought up all of life being worship. That's like the bedrock of this, of this whole tension that we live in. I think that the more we can have a perspective that makes that aim to make all of our life worship from our, you know, all the stuff we've mentioned, responsibilities and relationships and free time and hobbies all when all of that becomes an avenue of worship to bring back glory to God, you know, first within some 31, then we start.

00;35;54;22 - 00;35;57;27
Christian
Yeah, we start experiencing his fullness, experiencing his delight.

00;35;58;21 - 00;36;08;01
Chris
Yeah. I have an example that just come to the forefront for me in recent days, but my my favorite band is U2. I Are you U2 fan?

00;36;08;06 - 00;36;12;08
Brenton
Huge fan. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;36;12;23 - 00;36;13;14
Chris
The other guy.

00;36;15;10 - 00;36;15;13
Brenton
I.

00;36;15;13 - 00;36;16;01
Chris
Mean Larry.

00;36;16;02 - 00;36;16;11
Christian
Bass.

00;36;17;11 - 00;36;17;17
Brenton
Which.

00;36;17;20 - 00;36;45;02
Chris
I but I just recently read Bono has his autobiography or memoir, I guess, and I wouldn't necessarily recommend that everybody read it, nor am I recommending the band here to anybody. But they it's interesting, back when they were teenagers and their bands started, they started getting popular and they signed a record contract and then they started going to a pretty conservative church.

00;36;45;02 - 00;37;11;16
Chris
And the leaders of the church actually came and told them, You need to leave the road, you need to stop pursuing this, and you need to come and just serve the church and it was this this idea that, you know, you're that gift and that desire that God has given you for music and art can only, you know, be legitimate if you're you're doing it in a religious setting and you bring up the edge.

00;37;11;16 - 00;37;34;03
Chris
The edge actually had made the decision to leave the band and Bono said, I can't imagine being in the band without him, so I'm quitting too. And then the other two kind of like, Whatever, okay, we're out too. And then they went and they talked to I forget the guy who signed them to the contract, and he said, Do you really think that your God would want you to break your word?

00;37;34;03 - 00;37;59;18
Chris
And they're like, Oh, okay. And they actually they actually stayed touring. It was like, I think with a contract, the tour. And so they kept touring and here we are 40 years later and they've sold more records than any band in history. And you know, their legacy is an interesting one. We could have a discussion on that, but I use it as an illustration.

00;37;59;18 - 00;38;24;19
Chris
We've got we've given people this idea that you you're your gifts and your talents and abilities, unless they're in the church, they're used in some way. They're they're not really as pleasing to the Lord or they can't really be used to serve him. And I think we've got to get away from that big time and that God has given us all gifts and abilities.

00;38;24;19 - 00;38;38;07
Chris
And he's put this in certain places a certain time. And so God has me here and now, and how do I use that to honor and worship him? And a lot of times it's what we you know, what do you like to do?

00;38;38;12 - 00;38;38;25
Christian
Yeah.

00;38;39;09 - 00;38;47;21
Chris
And what you like to do, very likely is something that God has hardwired into you. And so how do you use that to worship and and honor.

00;38;47;21 - 00;39;11;26
Brenton
Him and Christian? I'm sure you have some experience with that. I mean, you've kind of grown up in the arts and there's so many different ways to to worship God through that. And obviously your career path has taken you taking you here to to lead worship. But how what are your thoughts on that? That that we can we should we can worship God even with our arts, even outside of a church setting.

00;39;11;26 - 00;39;40;00
Christian
Yeah, I think it's great. I love I love the idea that, you know, the glory of an ability to glorify God doesn't just happen inside the church, even with these these tools that are a huge part of our church services and our corporate worship cultures, you know, everything is is able to be redeemed by God. And we have a certain calling to to see that happen within the church.

00;39;40;00 - 00;40;04;20
Christian
But but also outside of the church. And, you know, we talk we talk some about like being faithful, faithful, available and teachable. And there's your formula for allowing God to to use you in some of the most incredible people I've seen in ministry and serve the church aren't always the ones that are like up front preaching and doing the very like conventional roles.

00;40;04;20 - 00;40;19;07
Christian
They're people that just were faithful and available and teachable, and God use them in mighty ways because of those kind of humble, humble attributes that that gave them, gave them a ministry, give them a platform.

00;40;19;13 - 00;40;22;02
Chris
Yeah. I have a question for both of you here.

00;40;22;15 - 00;40;27;20
Christian
So is it about you to I hope do.

00;40;27;20 - 00;40;28;03
Chris
You want you.

00;40;28;04 - 00;40;28;23
Brenton
To question.

00;40;31;04 - 00;40;43;29
Chris
Both of you are talented musicians and music has been a big part of both of your lives. Many of you may not know this, but Brendan is a very gifted drummer and has been in a number of different bands, I believe, Right?

00;40;44;01 - 00;40;44;29
Brenton
I will admit to it.

00;40;45;27 - 00;40;50;02
Chris
What was the name of the one that you told me you wanted to say something about it? Robert Or something or.

00;40;50;09 - 00;40;51;12
Brenton
I don't know anything about the.

00;40;51;18 - 00;40;52;25
Chris
Grave or something like.

00;40;52;25 - 00;41;04;14
Brenton
That. Was it? No. Well, I mean, we were we kind of used a lot of Simpsons puns at the time. Okay. Really no reason to get into that here. All right.

00;41;04;14 - 00;41;32;13
Chris
But but here's the question that I have for you is talk a little bit, if you will, about how music that is not overtly Christian. Does is not Christian contemporary music, it's not hymns, is not something that we would sing on a Sunday morning at Harmony Bible Church, but can still be worshipful and can lead us to worship God.

00;41;32;23 - 00;41;37;07
Brenton
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question.

00;41;37;14 - 00;41;45;10
Chris
You can include, if you want to know, just music, movies. Yeah. And all varieties of of art.

00;41;45;10 - 00;42;16;00
Christian
Yeah. I think anything that's going to anything that's going to have these vestiges of biblical themes in it redemption, restoration, forgiveness, joy, even like any, any art form that's going to represent those things and particularly do it in a way that's compelling and engaging and encouraging. Obviously, those are going to lead you to God because those are things that represent God in a very real intangible way.

00;42;16;23 - 00;42;31;15
Christian
I actually took a class I've talked to some people about this since being here, but I took a class in college called Christian Motifs in Film, and we watched all these films, none of which were Christian films. Some of them were like classics, like What's the Rosebud movie? I don't remember. It's called.

00;42;31;28 - 00;42;32;28
Brenton
Citizen Kane.

00;42;32;28 - 00;42;58;02
Christian
Kane Thank you, Citizen Kane or about that. And like Rebel Without a Cause, we watch all these films that have these things in them. They have even characters who represent attributes of Christ. And, you know, his his whole life, his whole ministry, even his, his resurrection. And so, yeah, being able to to see those things and be encouraged by them and kind of lean into them absolutely.

00;42;58;02 - 00;43;05;18
Christian
Lead to to a more vibrant spiritual life and I think a more interesting understanding of who God is and how creative God is.

00;43;06;16 - 00;43;32;29
Brenton
Yeah, well, there's a lot of authors mean we would point to point Lewis and Tolkien and I mean, these guys were artists that, that the the story of redemption really took hold of their of their art. But I mean you can't get away from the best story ever told when you're telling a story. Right? Right. Like, oh, it's it's it's repeated so much and in film and books and.

00;43;34;05 - 00;43;37;18
Chris
Unknowingly a lot of times. Right. Or in intentionally.

00;43;37;18 - 00;44;19;14
Brenton
Yeah, sure. But I think there's something also to be said about just doing what you're doing really well. And and I'm probably going to offend some people here, but God's not dead is not a good movie. There's a lot of these movies that just aren't good. And so even you can you can cram as much theology or truth into something that's just not well-made and and doesn't have creativity and art and the things that that God has given to us to express your beauty in love.

00;44;20;03 - 00;44;47;02
Brenton
You can you can cram as much truth and do something that if it doesn't have that, then I don't think you're really reflecting what what God has given us in in, in our in our creativity. And so, yeah, like I said, a lot of it is just I think, doing stuff honestly and genuinely because because we see beauty, because we see intention in our world, because there's a lot of things to say.

00;44;47;12 - 00;44;53;15
Brenton
But the like I said, everything's going to go back to the story of redemption because it's the best story we have.

00;44;53;23 - 00;45;17;26
Christian
There's there's a version of Ecclesiastes, I think it's Ecclesiastes nine that says whatever your right hand fights to do, do it with all your might. And kind of getting back to that idea of excellence that you're talking about, that's so good. I love that verse and it does it it pains me to see Christian art, which I don't even like that label, but Christians making art in the name of Jesus that isn't good because they're trying.

00;45;18;00 - 00;45;26;19
Christian
They're taking their cues from the world where the opposite should be true, right? If it's Christian, it should be better. And oftentimes it's the complete opposite.

00;45;26;19 - 00;45;29;16
Brenton
Yeah, absolutely. Know, we could really talk about that for a while.

00;45;29;21 - 00;45;30;29
Christian
Yeah, there could be a whole episode.

00;45;31;04 - 00;45;46;11
Chris
Well, so you just to be clear here, there can be a non Christian artist who can lead us to worship just so we, we're absolutely.

00;45;46;23 - 00;45;47;01
Christian
Yeah.

00;45;48;13 - 00;46;21;06
Chris
Like when, when they use the gifts that God is giving them to create something beautiful, mesmerizing, amazing. And which does happen on a on a regular basis. We are free to even though there may or may not be any you know Bible verses quoted they might not have any intention of you know, of pointing to the Lord. They actually are by being creative and using the gifts that God has given them.

00;46;21;06 - 00;46;44;19
Chris
Now, I will go back to we talked about a few weeks. We as believers, we do have to be careful that we we use that rubric, redeem, reject, receive doesn't mean I mean, there's a lot of musicians, a lot of artists out there who they are being really creative, but it's not it honoring to God. It's overtly dishonoring that.

00;46;44;19 - 00;47;20;01
Chris
So again, it's this isn't a we want everybody to be really clear here. We're not saying simply we should listen to everything that's out there. You should watch every movie that's out there. And just because it's it's, you know, a great piece of cinematography, you can jump in and dive in. That's not the point. The point is, is that there there there are things that are not overtly Christian, not intentionally Christian at all that we can take in and we can allow it to use to lead us to to worship.

00;47;20;27 - 00;47;50;27
Christian
Yeah, well, and honestly, I would say the minority of of art in entertainment that is like anti-God, like explicitly evil in trying to speak against them, that's the minority. Most of it does have redemptive qualities that we can sift through. And you're so right, do need to use discernment. But again, I think most of it is is able to to reflect God as creator.

00;47;51;28 - 00;48;16;11
Brenton
I just as a side note to this, I've always found it just interesting to watch. There's so many directors, obviously, that that are our God haters. Right. And I mean they but they still make good movies. But I find those times so educational to to look at the world through their eyes and see see what they what they think, how do they perceive things.

00;48;17;09 - 00;48;27;17
Brenton
Even just watching things that aren't Christian. We we still learn a lot about about what the world what the world sees, what they think.

00;48;27;17 - 00;48;55;08
Chris
Yeah, maybe my final word for today. Unless you have something else. Men would be as believers. What we're talking about here being intentional and that we just don't kind of go with the world or go the way that life goes. But we intentionally are looking for opportunities to to worship and our Lord and everything that we do. And we're not simply taking in what the world is, is bringing us, but we are.

00;48;55;13 - 00;49;22;20
Chris
You said discernment, right? And we're going to practice discernment and but but our mind, you know, back to practicing the presence of God, we're going to practice this presence which necessity. It's that we're turning our hearts in our minds him, no matter what we're doing, what we're engaged in, what we're taking in. And so maybe a good, good word for us to to focus on this week being intentional in our worship.

00;49;23;06 - 00;49;30;19
Brenton
Yeah, that's really good. Well, appreciate it, guys. That went a lot of directions I didn't expect to do, but I appreciate it. I was fun. Yeah.

00;49;30;19 - 00;49;31;25
Christian
Yeah. Thanks for having me.

00;49;31;29 - 00;49;59;16
Brenton
All right. We will talk to you next week.