Episode 57: The Gospel-Centered Church

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Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth, the transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further and Britain Grimm This week we have both Clay Baker and Andrew Weiss with us. Welcome, guys. Thanks for coming.

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Andrew
Yeah, thanks for having us.

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Clay
Thank you.

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Brenton
I did want to start. I thought it was pretty funny listening to you guys read through all these names here. So I'm curious, how long did you actually spend, like, in front of a mirror? Practicing these pronunciations?

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Clay
Not long enough. In fact, it was. It was one of those things that throughout the week I kept telling myself, I got to remember to make sure I get these pronunciation down. And then I kept forgetting to actually do it. And so it wasn't until Sunday morning before the 830 service in Burlington that I realized like, no, I still haven't like gone on an audio recording and heard how these things really need to be pronounced.

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Clay
So it was kind of a morning up thing for me and I wish I had done it a little sooner in the week.

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Brenton
Is that how you did it? Did you get on the Bible app? Yeah, you've heard the app and listen to that guy.

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Clay
Yeah, I got the ESV, you know, Bible app on my phone and I just listened to that guy and that's what I've I've done that for all sorts of things that I don't know how to pronounce.

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Brenton
He seems like he knows what he's talking about.

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Clay
I trust him.

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Andrew
I just bypassed that section altogether. I didn't read it out loud. I probably should have, but.

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Clay
Andrew, I know you've you've given me advice before that if you don't know, just say it with confidence and nobody will know the difference. That's right.

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Andrew
Yeah. Unless they have the ESV app that they've been listening to and then they've got that David Cochrane.

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Clay
He's that.

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Andrew
Name. Yeah, I figured.

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Brenton
It was David Attenborough. All right.

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Andrew
If it's recorded, it must be right.

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Clay
That's right.

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Brenton
Okay. So I did was curious just as we close out the Romans study, what were some of the most impactful things for you over this this whole series?

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Andrew
Yeah, I think for me, I just love how the book of Romans just has the gospel on display from start to finish, from from chapter one, all the way to what we saw here in chapter 16, just over and over and over again comes at the gospel from from different directions. And, you know, in the first part of the book, he's laying out our need for the gospel, Everyone's need for the gospel from the vilest sinner that all of us agree is a vital center to the most self-righteous person.

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Andrew
He just kind of lays us all flat and and says, You all need the gospel. And then, of course, from that transitions into the explicit declaration of the Gospel of what Christ has done for us on the cross and how that gets us salvation in Him. But then more than that, that it's more than just this transaction. There's relationship with God, restoration with God, There's, you know, we have a new status with him, his sons and daughters, and the spirit in dwells us and creation is affected by the gospel.

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Andrew
And and then, you know, in the third part of the book, we see the gospel should impact everything we do, all of our relationships, all of our activities just over and over. So, yeah, for me, I think it was just a good reminder that the gospel needs to be central to each of our lives from from start to finish.

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Brenton
Yeah, I'm with you there. I mean, I grew up Baptist, went to Awana. So the idea of the Romans Road, you know, like, that's that's kind of how we think through the gospel sometimes. Or at least that's a way to present it. And and that's because, you know, this this book really just does have everything we need in it for to understand city reality.

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Brenton
And maybe that's an overstatement, but there's a lot in there and there's just so much important information and it's laid out so well, so. Yeah. What about you, Clay?

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Clay
Yeah. I've enjoyed, you know, everything that we've dug into week after week. But I think one thing that stands out to me, perhaps more than anything else is just seeing our body engage with the text. It seems like this series more than any I can remember, people have been very engaged with it and, you know, reading the passages ahead of time, kind of excited to see, you know, what the preacher was going to say, what what he was going to bring.

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Clay
But also in the equip, you classes and and community groups. I know there's lots of there have been lots of people digging into the text and asking questions about it and having good discussions. And so that's been really fun for me to see.

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Brenton
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's great. Okay. So, Clay, the first of your characteristics of a gospel centered church on Sunday was that they are diverse. So first of all, I want to say I really appreciated the distinction you made on this point, that you said that we shouldn't just seek diversity for the sake of diversity. But but really, because it is it's a natural outworking of the ground being level at the foot of the cross.

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Brenton
And I think that's a helpful distinction between where, you know, our our American culture is right now and where the church should be.

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Brenton
So my my first question is, if you don't see diversity in a church today, do you suspect that there that there's a problem there?

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Clay
Yeah, I it one of the first things that comes to my mind is that it just might indicate that we're around people that are a lot like ourselves. And you know so southeast Iowa, west central Illinois, you know, we're not diverse, very diverse relative to the rest of the country in some ways. But we are diverse or can be diverse in other ways.

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Clay
And I just think you'd want wherever your local body is, your local church, you'd want that to reflect the community or the neighborhood around you, because that would indicate that the people that belong to that local body are out in their neighborhoods and in their communities, being the salt and light that we're called to be, you know, faithfully proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ and living it out both in word and indeed.

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Clay
And then, you know, you would see they would see their neighbors and they would see their, you know, coworkers or their classmates coming to know the Lord and being part of the local church. So I think that's something that we could we should strive for. And if we don't see that reflected in our particular local body or to whatever extent we don't, we just might ask questions about to what extent we are really engaging with unbelievers around us.

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Andrew


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Brenton
It might be helpful just for this, for this podcast to define what you mean by diversity in this, in this context. Because I think, you know, our our first kind of cultural definition of that would go to either, you know, race or gender. What what other categories would you put in there that are that are relevant?

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Clay
Well, something you see in Romans 16 is people of high social status and people of low social status. So there are either slaves or former slaves represented here. But then also represented is like Erastus, for example, who was a city treasurer or, you know, Phoebe, who seemed to be a woman of means. And, you know, I see that kind of diversity in our church, and particularly, you know, I'm most familiar with the Burlington campus.

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Clay
We have people that that come to our church on Sunday mornings that walk up from the halfway house down at the bottom of the hill, and they are worshiping right alongside bank presidents and surgeons and other people that are highly educated or highly successful. So that's you know, I see this in Romans 16, that there's people of high social status and low social status worshiping in the same local body.

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Clay
And I see that reflected at Harmony Bible Church, too. And that's very encouraging to me.

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Brenton
Yeah, for sure.

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Andrew
Yeah, I think another way and I appreciate this about harmony is we have diversity of age as well. Yeah. So you've got people in the prime of life and, you know, who've been around much longer and then you've got younger couples and their children and I think that's a significant component. We can't necessarily glean from these first verses.

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Andrew
We don't know their ages, but that that's clear in scripture, that ages, all ages are to be valued, the young, the old and everyone in between. Yeah.

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Brenton
It does seem it maybe it's just kind of anecdotal observation from me, but it, it kind of does seem like that is a problem in the American church that either, you know, they're one of the two age ranges and either they don't have a lot of kids or they don't have a lot of older people. And I think that that is unique in harmony just with with the long range of of years we've had with with this church that we've kept a lot of, you know, the older generation that I think is has been a real asset to what we're doing here.

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Brenton
Absolutely. Okay. So kind of playing off that, do you see this as an issue in the broader church today? And and if you do practically what what steps do you suggest taking to improve on this point?

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Clay
Yeah, I don't know if I could really speak to the church at large and we'd have to define, you know, where are we talking about here? But I definitely think it's something we should be striving for and again, to be to be representative of our community. And so in terms of like practical steps, I've been thinking about that myself quite a bit.

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Clay
I think, you know, getting outside of your comfort zone to serve in ways that maybe you haven't been serving just so you can interact with people. I think of like a City Hope Foundation and some of the opportunities that that ministry offers to interact with with folks that you may may otherwise not cross paths with, that provides a lot of opportunities there.

00;10;48;00 - 00;11;05;15
Clay
There's opportunities in your own neighborhood, you know, to get beyond just the friendly. Hello, how you doing? How's the weather or talking about the weather, you know, kind of kind of stuff to real relationships and real care and concern and fighting neighbors into your home, getting to know them.

00;11;05;18 - 00;11;39;19
Brenton
Yeah, I think that for so long, at least in my life, you know, the the action step for the congregation has been invite your neighbor to church. And and while I would I would never say don't do that. That's not where our, our our responsibility ends. And I think that, you know, what you're saying about service is is so important that we as the congregation, not as not as the church staff, not as the church structure, but as a congregation, we need to leave our corporate gathering and go get involved in the.

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Clay
Absolutely. In fact, I was just talking about or talking about that with one of our staff colleagues this week, just even finding it true in our own lives as staff members that if we're not careful, really, every bit of our lives just about can be given to organized activities in the local church. Yeah.

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Brenton
Yeah.

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Clay
And and that's easy for us to do as staff members and not typically thought of as a bad thing, but we would really have to be disciplined or making extra efforts to get outside of that and to really be in the community in kind of natural or organic ways, like whether that's, you know, being part of a rec league or pursuing some kind of club or hobby or being part of some civic organization, you know, we need believers in Jesus Christ in all these fears in our community.

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Clay
And again, getting back to salt and light, we need to be the salt and light in the community. And we can't be that if all of our lives is going to official harmony. Bible Church functions.

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Brenton
Totally. Yep. But yeah, I think that's that's an important distinction. That's good, Andrew. From a global perspective, what are your thoughts on this?

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Andrew
Yeah, a couple of different things, I think, to Clay's point about maybe getting outside of our comfort zones. There are opportunities to interact with a diverse variety of people from age to gender to maybe even ethnic background here in southeast Iowa. But sometimes it helps to go on a trip like engage global or for the nation's refugee outreach and kind of have a controlled environment where you get to experience that and talk about it and process it.

00;13;28;03 - 00;14;09;23
Andrew
And then we've seen people come back from that and one realize, okay, I can do this, is it isn't as awkward as I thought. And it's actually really exciting to get to learn about people from different cultures and different backgrounds than myself, different walks of life. You know, if you're if you're talking about that social or economic status and and so, yeah, it's just a really neat way to kind of, again, in a safe and maybe controlled environment, dip your toes in the water and then come back here and have real, tangible, practical experience to implement and use in your own neighborhood.

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Brenton
To happen to.

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Andrew
Yeah, yeah, we've seen that happen. In fact, Tim Svoboda was just telling me that somebody came back from the Texas trip for the nation's refugee outreach and she she was going to help with the drop out program through City Hope and through that. And just her first experience with the drop out program said, you know what, I'm going to quit a part time job, a second job.

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Andrew
She didn't need it just kind of extra. And she said, I want to devote that time to this. And so I'm kind of a just a fresh new story that just got shared with with me. That's that's pretty neat to see that take place. Another another thing I think we see maybe in the global church as an issue, and there's certainly implications for us in this here.

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Andrew
But you take India, for example. You know, India has this historic caste system, which is technically illegal now, but everyone still practices that it's just ingrained in their culture. And it's you know, it's it's high class versus low class and there's all kinds of things. And the classes don't mix. And some, you know, missionary theories out there are well, we need to focus on each caste and plan to church in the high caste in the middle castes and the low caste.

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Andrew
And while that might be easier, what it inadvertently does is reinforces anti biblical ideas of separation and and the gospels and should be this inclusive thing where people from any walk of life, regardless of of you know, what that background is, should be able to come together in the gospel. Now the gospel requires certain things of us in that and for for people in India and the caste system, it would require them recognizing that their caste is that or the reinforcement of that doesn't show love to one another, doesn't show care for your neighbor, it doesn't show sacrifice of self for the sake of others, like like the gospel does, and Christ giving himself for

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Andrew
us. And so I think every culture has their own caste of some kind who share that and in some cases many versions of that that we've got to be careful. We don't reinforce while, you know, preaching the gospel in establishing churches.

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Brenton
Let me throw this out here real fast and you guys can tell me what you think of it. But, you know, I like Clay. What you said about our churches should reflect the community that we're in. I think that that's that's probably a fair point. But I wonder if there is sometimes a push to, you know, manufacture diversity in some ways.

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Brenton
Have you guys seen that happen at all? I mean, just just the idea of I mean, we live in a in an area that is this one demographic really like there you know, there's a lot of places like that. But we feel like we need to be diverse because the culture has kind of moved us this way. Does that does that resonate with you guys at all?

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Brenton
Is that make any sense?

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Clay
It does. I mean, I think I know what you're talking about. And I've seen, you know, attempts at that to try to kind of become more diverse from the top down, so to speak. But, you know, I just hope that the, you know, the heart behind that is just very well-intentioned. And if you're if you're earnestly, I would like to believe that, if you're if you're making intentional efforts to become more diverse or reflective of your community, that you're doing that just out of a heart that loves people and you want to be effective in sharing the gospel with people that don't look like you or necessarily, you know, have the same kind of

00;18;15;01 - 00;18;46;29
Clay
background as you. And so I really appreciate churches or any organizations that are trying to get outside their box or their comfort zone to do something different, that that might work and maybe it won't. Maybe it falls flat. Maybe it is the wrong approach from an effectiveness standpoint. But I'd hope I'd hope and like to think especially of other churches, that efforts like that are well-intentioned and just out of a genuine heart that loves and cares and wants to see the gospel more known.

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Clay
Yeah.

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Andrew
Yeah, I would agree. I think. I think that genuineness is so important. If people can smell fake and if you're just trying to do it for insincere reasons, it's going to I think it's more likely going to fall flat. It might take a while, but people are going to figure it out. Whereas if you're just doing it out of love, even if you are doing it, as Clay said, that may be the wrong way.

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Andrew
People will see that love and that genuineness. And I think that will overcome in most cases, any errors and in that strategy. Yeah.

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Brenton
Okay, good. so Paul warns the church in verse 17 to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught. Is is this a call to the church congregation or its leadership or both?

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Andrew
Yeah, I, I think it's I think it's both. He's written to the church in Rome. There's there's leaders and non leaders that are hearing this letter. You know, he's he's telling them to greet all these various people in the church and he says, I appeal to you brothers. You know, that's that's a call to the general body of Christ that he's making here.

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Andrew
And I think it is unique because in a lot of, you know, the pastoral epistles, Timothy and Titus, he is specifically writing to a person who is a leader and kind of advising them on how to pastor their churches. But here he's making it to all of us, every believer at Rome needs to watch out and avoid and be wise.

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Andrew
And so, yeah, I think there's an obligation here for everybody to be involved in guarding the doctrine of the church to some extent.

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Brenton
So it's to some extent. But with that, what do you think the different roles are and maybe just use Harmony as an example? I mean, what what is the congregation's role in in watching out for those who cause division and what's the leadership's role?

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Clay
Well, I think the leadership or the elders have a special responsibility for what's taught from the front. What's taught on Sunday mornings in the kind of organized ministry spaces. I also think, you know, elders have a special responsibility to guard the official doctrine of the church like our Constitution, and make sure that sound we, you know, the elders serve as gatekeepers for church membership.

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Clay
And one of the questions on the membership application, you know, asks ask people to not only read the Constitution of harmony, but but to state any disagreements they might have with that so that those are brought to light and worked through before somebody would become a member. So I think there is a special responsibility on the elders as shepherds of the local flock to protect them against false doctrine.

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Clay
But I also I also think there's a responsibility of every believer to to know Scripture, to know their Bible. I think, Andrew, I think you mentioned the brilliance in your sermon that perhaps you can share a bit more about that story for Max. That's a great example of of ordinary folks checking, checking things out against Scripture and really guarding the truth for themselves.

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Clay
And I think that's a call for all of us.

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Andrew
Yeah. Yeah. I love I love the book of Acts. I could I could just park there for a long time. But I especially like the story of the Brians. Paul It stands out to me because this doesn't necessarily happen, or at least it's not recorded in other places. But the Bree and church, Paul comes to him and starts preaching the gospel and and sharing that Christ is the Messiah and according to the Old Testament prophets.

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Andrew
And so that the brains are like, really? Okay, well, let's go back and read the Old Testament prophets. And so they spend some time doing that and, you know, they don't outright reject Paul, but they don't at the same time, don't just say, okay, here's a authoritative person. I'm going to believe everything they say. They check it with scripture, and when they do, they go, yeah, all right.

00;23;23;21 - 00;23;52;06
Andrew
In the mysteries revealed to them. And then they're like, Hey, let's fully embrace this. This this is truth. This is this is worth hanging on to. So it's a it's a fun, fun story and just a good reminder of individually, I think what in some ways individually what we should do every day with whatever we hear, whether it's overtly theological or even if it's just something happening and being discussed in our society.

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Andrew
I think I think sometimes we separate too much what's happening in the world from what we believe. You know, we talked earlier about the gospel penetrating every aspect of our lives. And you know, I think we just sometimes just say, that's a church. That's a church thing. We'll think about that in church contexts, and this is a world thing, and we don't always necessarily remind ourselves to filter the things we do, the things we hear in secular contexts with the gospel and with the truth of Scripture, and figure out, is this something I need to align with my theology or is it neutral?

00;24;35;24 - 00;24;37;03
Andrew
Is it just kind of ambiguous?

00;24;37;04 - 00;25;02;03
Brenton
US Yeah, Yeah. And so I think Brian's are a good example of the positive side of that, right? That they're, they're checking it and they'd find it to be true. But then like Galatians is a good example of the negative side of that and what like leadership role should be in that. How Paul handles the Judaism is is very, very aggressive.

00;25;02;05 - 00;25;02;25
Brenton


00;25;02;28 - 00;25;26;11
Clay
Yeah. He says, I love how Paul, he opens the door to the possibility that he, at a later time could be speaking something contrary to the gospel and Galatians chapter one, verse eight, he says, But even if we and he's including himself in that even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to, you let him be accursed.

00;25;26;14 - 00;25;39;17
Clay
And so he's he's saying, look, I mean, the gospel is true. The gospel has been preached to you. That is so true that if even I come back at a later time and try to tell you something different, don't believe me. Let me be accursed.

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Brenton
Yeah.

00;25;40;22 - 00;25;57;18
Andrew
And I find it so interesting that there's a couple major monotheistic religions in which an angel brings a special message to an individual, and then that person in their passion starts this new new religion.

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Clay
New religion, and they might even say they're Christian or that they believe the Bible, too. But yeah, they've got this this fresh new revelation just for them, right? Yeah.

00;26;08;03 - 00;26;33;05
Brenton
Okay. So along with that and kind of playing off what you would, said Andrew, about the rest of the world. Both of you mentioned examples of voices outside of our church, like, like podcasters or TV shows or whatever. And your conclusion is that we shouldn't give them a platform and we should avoid listening to them even. I mean, Paul's words here at the end of verse 17 is avoid them.

00;26;33;07 - 00;27;02;08
Brenton
So can I have a little more clarity on that? I think so. What kind of came to mind? For example, I often try to listen to dissenting opinions, really, So I'm aware of other positions. Is there a problem with that? Is he talking about that? Should we should we really give them no quarter at all? Are there any situations where it's good to engage with people like this for the sake of the gospel?

00;27;02;10 - 00;27;24;09
Clay
Well, yeah, I do think I do think the passage is talking about gospel issues. And so kind of getting back to the concentric circles that Chris is, you know, so helpfully illustrated for us the last couple of weeks in Romans 14. I think that I think we're talking about core issues here. So you mentioned dissenting. Did you say dissenting opinions or dissenting voices?

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Brenton
Yeah. I mean, like, for example, listen to atheists talk about things or listen to other other religious leaders talk about things.

00;27;32;03 - 00;27;54;29
Clay
And I think it's just important to know, you know, what the issues are. Are they gospel issues or non gospel issues? You know, something less important than the gospel. But then beyond that, you know, what's the purpose? And you're listening. Are you just trying to understand them so that you might better, better be able to share the gospel with them, share the truth with them, want to hear what they're where they're coming from?

00;27;55;02 - 00;28;29;06
Clay
Or is this somebody that's actually having an influence in your life? And I actually just last week had a conversation with somebody who held himself out to be Christian. And then as the conversation went on, I don't know this person well, but as the conversation went on, it became pretty clear to me that he's been listening to some things or reading some things that were actually just downright racist and and anti-Semitic, and that he believed the gospel was just for certain certain races or certain ethnicities.

00;28;29;12 - 00;28;59;01
Clay
And that's that's actually why I included that specific example in my sermon, because he would say he's a Christian. Yeah. And yeah. So it was just it was it wasn't an overly long conversation, just, you know, a few minutes. And I'm not really in relationship with this person. It was just kind of a chance encounter. But I did have the thought of like, Wow, there's stuff out there and I imagine it's online that for him, but there's stuff out there that is just poisoning minds.

00;28;59;03 - 00;29;25;07
Clay
Poisoning minds where somebody that, you know, could otherwise might appear to be an upstanding citizen and and and say he's a Christian, but firmly believe that there are that people of a certain skin color are better than or more loved by God than others. And that just in our own community. And yeah made me really sad but it also was very sobering of the dangers that are out there.

00;29;25;09 - 00;29;30;12
Clay
And and we have such ready access to them now.

00;29;30;15 - 00;29;56;11
Andrew
Yeah. Yeah I would, I would say that you know list listening to dissenting opinions can I think it can be really helpful. Paul Actually, you know, going back to the book of I actually had a lot of conversations with people who thought differently. Of course, he's trying to share the gospel with them. And I think of the I think it's called the Arab pages there in Athens, you know, and they like to debate and they like to talk.

00;29;56;11 - 00;29;59;06
Andrew
And so I don't think.

00;29;59;08 - 00;30;10;23
Clay
You have to remember how, you know, he kind of tried once with them and then they just wanted him to kind of keep coming back for more debates, more talks. And once he realized that they weren't they didn't actually care. They weren't actually listening. They weren't he wasn't getting anywhere with them, he moved.

00;30;10;23 - 00;30;48;14
Andrew
On, right? Yeah, he did. He did. Absolutely. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think it's I think it's fine to to do that. I think our motivation is important in that like, what are we are we are we, are we trying to learn so that we can use that in our own evangelistic efforts or relationships with family and friends that might hold those views to try to understand our culture, how we can interact with our world, or, you know, are we are are we flirting with disaster because we're uncertain and we're listening to these voices.

00;30;48;14 - 00;31;13;02
Andrew
And I think the real danger comes if if we're hearing something and we're not sure, we can't evaluate ourselves whether or not this is truth or aligning with truth, then I think we should either cut it off or go check with someone who can help us figure that out. Somebody in our community group, a pastor or an elder and and say, Hey, here's what I'm hearing.

00;31;13;02 - 00;31;32;27
Andrew
What do you think about this? And and and if you're coming from that kind of posture, I think that's healthy and good. I think it's the it's it's the people who are just listening to stuff, not filtering it and getting sucked into these philosophies. Well, without considering the gospel implications.

00;31;32;28 - 00;32;01;29
Clay
Yeah, that's so good. Andrew And and I and I think it's true that people become so and I, you know, I've, I've found myself to some extent in this camp or in this place, but you can become so a fan of a certain voice or person that you're not even in a relationship with. And yet you, you start to value their beliefs, opinions, views more than and think, you know, they're smarter than they're better than.

00;32;02;01 - 00;32;24;12
Clay
And then your own local pastor or local elder or community group leader or just brother or sister in Christ who actually loves you, actually knows you and actually loves you and would be there for you and. And to to not even I so love what you brought up, Andrew, about going to people in the church like we don't have to live this Christian life alone.

00;32;24;15 - 00;32;42;21
Clay
We can't live this Christian life alone. So why even try? And so as we're hearing things out there, seeing things, reading things, you know, bring them to the Christian community in your local church with people that genuinely care and, and have them help you filter that, help you understand. Yeah.

00;32;42;24 - 00;33;06;15
Andrew
I think another important thing is that the motivation of the person and you can tell a lot of times in how they're communicating, are they trying to build up? Are they trying to unify or are they like Paul warrants, trying to be divisive and create obstacles? And it doesn't take very long to listen to a lot of people to figure out what their motivation is.

00;33;06;15 - 00;33;30;23
Andrew
And I used R.C. Sprawl, again, kind of playing off of Chris's use of it and said, RC sprawl is a great example. There's there's things that we disagree with him on and their convictions and opinions and but he does it every every time I've heard him speak or share or talk, and I've learned a lot from him myself, he he does it in a gracious and loving and compassionate way.

00;33;30;23 - 00;33;46;15
Andrew
And he wants he wants the health of the church, regardless of what denomination you're in, which regardless of your background. But then there's other people you hear online and all they do is attack. All they do is attack and they say, Here's what's wrong with your view, here's what's wrong with your view, here's what's wrong with your.

00;33;46;15 - 00;34;07;25
Clay
View, or even even pastors and evangelical churches, I mean, will be I hear that I actually stopped listening to a podcast that I really enjoyed. It was a political podcast, but the guy's Christian because so often he was tearing down pastors of evangelical churches as if evangel Local pastors are like the problem in society or like, We're what's wrong?

00;34;07;26 - 00;34;25;27
Clay
Right? And and it was always vague, general, but it just was negative and divisive and, not charitable. And so, you know, I'm not saying that guy's not a believer, but and that's not exactly what Romans 16 is talking about. But that's an example of how, you know, I'm avoiding that person. I don't listen. That podcast anymore wasn't good for me.

00;34;26;03 - 00;34;54;10
Brenton
Yeah, I think that's really good practical advice and that's helpful to just kind of think through, especially, you know, the people that are very obviously divisive. I think that there is another group of people that are very slick in, in what they're doing and maybe do have good intentions but are just wrong. Right. And that, I think, is a little harder to one to to catch the error in it, but to to convince someone that there's error in it.

00;34;54;15 - 00;35;11;27
Brenton
Right. I mean, I, I could name a lot of examples of people that come off really well but are spewing heresy. And so that that's where I think things get a little more complicated, with how to, how to shepherd, you know, people through that.

00;35;11;29 - 00;35;39;12
Andrew
I think that's, that's one of the dangers of heresy is it sounds so good. Yeah, it can I mean that's why it's attractive, right? Is it appeals to our flesh. It appeals to it takes the rough edges off the gospel, you know, of what the gospel requires of us to die ourself and a lot of heretical stances. Well, we'll try to soften that edge, so to speak.

00;35;39;12 - 00;35;46;25
Andrew
And and really take the teeth out of the gospel, to use a metaphor.

00;35;46;28 - 00;36;11;17
Brenton
Yeah. Andrew, as you comment it on verse 19, which says, I want you to be wise to do what is good and innocent as to what is evil. You talked about how often the church is on the wrong side of this divide that that we can defend political views online better than we can recognize when someone is twisting the gospel.

00;36;11;20 - 00;36;15;17
Brenton
What do you think has been the result of this?

00;36;15;19 - 00;36;41;14
Andrew
Yeah, I think there's a lot of fallout from this, but I think, you know, even just using the example of of politics, I think sometimes we can get so passionate about politics and talk so freely about politics and get immersed in politics that and then and then compare that to our passion for Christ, passion for the gospel, passion for advancing the kingdom.

00;36;41;15 - 00;37;04;05
Andrew
It's just it's it's disproportionate to what it should be. And I think the consequence of that ultimately what that means is that we're not we're not living out and being this victorious church that Christ wants us to be. You know, you look at you again, I go back to acts like the early church. What were they focused on?

00;37;04;05 - 00;37;48;12
Andrew
They were focused on ministry of the word prayer, caring for each other, meeting together, praying. Yeah. They had their daily lives. Yes. They still had to work and, you know, feed their families and all those things. But they weren't caught up in the politics of of the Roman Empire, although they had probably much more reason to be because, you know, it was so oppressive to them, especially, you know, a few decades into the church where there's outright persecution by some of the the Caesar's against against the church, just overt laws saying you can persecute Christians.

00;37;48;12 - 00;38;12;07
Andrew
And so they had they had every reason to be politically active, but they focused on the gospel, they focused on each other. And so I think I just think that that's just sad. And I've got myself caught up in it. And I've it's really easy, too, because political decisions affect my life and they affect my kids life and my wife and my friends and my family.

00;38;12;10 - 00;38;48;04
Andrew
And there is real tangible physical implications of politics. But then when I when I pause and think about it, I go, But there's there's more severe and eternal and spiritual consequences that are way more important by comparison, far more significant. And and and I just when I when I step back and think about that, I go, okay, I some of these political things that if if there was no heaven and no hell.

00;38;48;06 - 00;39;07;07
Andrew
Yeah. Right. Great. Let's give ourselves 100% to living for this moment. Yeah, but that's not the reality that we believe. Or at least that's not the reality we claim to believe. And so I think I think that's where the gospel needs to remind us and inform us, even on our politics or really any aspect of our life, we could go into free time.

00;39;07;07 - 00;39;41;08
Andrew
How we you know, how much we devote to investing in our kids and their potential future as a college athlete or pro athlete or or a doctor or a lawyer. Whatever aspirations we have for our kids, we can pour so much time and energy and resources into temporary things that we ignore the gospel and and really lose, lose the opportunity we have to impact eternal things.

00;39;41;10 - 00;40;02;12
Andrew
There's always a trade off, right? The time I spend on this is time I can't spend on this. The money I spend on this is money I can't spend on that. And I think that's just when you when you think about whatever, we have an opportunity to spend our time or money on or our talents on. And then you compare it to eternity.

00;40;02;14 - 00;40;13;10
Andrew
It's just it's a perspective that it's hard. It's it always makes me go, wow, I can do better.

00;40;13;12 - 00;40;23;26
Brenton
Yeah. So practically, how how can we in harmony, kind of help reverse this?

00;40;23;29 - 00;40;30;12
Clay
Andrew, I think you had a helpful practical tool for us. You did. You did your own little time study, didn't you?

00;40;30;15 - 00;40;50;05
Andrew
Just. Yeah, it's a quick mental one. I probably need to sit down and, like, write it out. Write it out? Yeah. No. Yeah. And myself, I talked about just looking at the time we spend throughout our week and what we spend it on, and I think that's a real practical way. You know, you can do it. You can do it just for your job or just for your home life.

00;40;50;05 - 00;41;11;04
Andrew
But I think laying out your week and comparing, you know, how much time am I focused on eternal things and how much time am I focused on temporal and really, by comparison, insignificant things? Just the quick evaluation I did in my head. Came up pretty lacking.

00;41;11;06 - 00;41;11;22
Clay


00;41;11;28 - 00;41;12;24
Andrew
Yeah.

00;41;12;26 - 00;41;41;22
Brenton
Well that's all I got for today. Guys. I am grateful for your work on these sermons and also just for your time today. you guys at home, I, I know I've gotten a lot of questions on whether we're going to keep doing this after the Romans series is done, so we have no plans to stop. We will be continuing this into really through Easter and then into Easter.

00;41;41;22 - 00;41;53;15
Brenton
And so yeah, will be will be continuing this. And yeah, if you have any questions, ask it further. Broadcast.com, I appreciate you listening.

00;41;53;17 - 00;41;53;29
Andrew
Next week.