Episode 55: Gospel Unity, Part 1

00;00;02;16 - 00;00;27;08
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further. I'm Brenton Graham and he is Chris Carr. And today I thought that, you know, we'd just commit the entire episode to super Tuesday coverage.

00;00;27;14 - 00;00;29;00
Brenton
So.

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Chris
Chris, what do you.

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Brenton
What do you know? What do you have for us? Nothing.

00;00;32;14 - 00;00;40;02
Chris
Nothing. No opinions. I'm not sharing them. So I think it's pretty much already decided, isn't it?

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Brenton
Yeah. I can't talk about it. Okay, So I don't know, maybe you'd rather talk about that than what we're going to talk about today, but I.

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Chris
Don't think so.

00;00;50;01 - 00;01;20;17
Brenton
All right. So I want to start by just doing a little recap of your of your message on Sunday. I know that, you know, it's going to hit a lot of people differently. Lots to unpack here. And so specifically, can you kind of go over what your definition of an opinion was from from this passage and what what separates that from a conviction or, you know, any anything else in those categories?

00;01;20;19 - 00;01;55;25
Chris
Sure. I would define an opinion as anything that the Bible does not clearly command or prohibit other translations of the Bible. Translate that word opinion as disputable matters, referring to the things that Christians can have disputes about and by dispute false. Not talking about arguing and fighting. Who says don't quarrel over these? What really means is they these are things that believers can have different opinions on.

00;01;55;25 - 00;02;24;00
Chris
And so we as believers can only have different opinions on things where the Bible hasn't clearly spoken about them. And so a conviction would be something that we would find in the scriptures, but that wouldn't rise to the level of an absolute where we're where people absolutely have to agree on this, affirm this in order to actually be a Christians, a Christian.

00;02;24;00 - 00;02;53;11
Chris
So convictions would be things. And I would say there are varying degrees of convictions. Some convictions are closer to absolutes and some convictions are closer to opinions, and that would depend upon how important that issue would be, how important that issue would be to the gospel, because there are some convictions that support the gospel, that protect the gospel.

00;02;53;11 - 00;03;32;20
Chris
That picture, the gospel. And so there would be other, you know, convictions that that are just not as important either for for supporting the gospel or actually for the life in the church. And and so I'd just give an example here. You would have baptism. There are different positions on baptism and and different positions that good Bible believing Christians have disagreements on.

00;03;32;22 - 00;04;10;12
Chris
And baptism is important, and even the mode of baptism is important, but it doesn't rise to the level of an absolute. And yet it's not in the it doesn't fall into the opinion category either. And so we would not divide from other Christian sins in the sense that we would we would call people, you know, say they're not Christians or not part of the true church if if they have a position on baptism, that would be different, different than ours.

00;04;10;14 - 00;04;37;20
Chris
But we would say, hey, we can't be in the same church. Okay, there if that position is is, is, is different. And by a different church, that doesn't necessarily mean that's someone who has a different position on baptism. Couldn't be a part of our church. It's like there's going to be different churches. You know, there's churches that subscribe to infant baptism, there's churches that subscribe to to believers baptism, which would be harmony.

00;04;37;20 - 00;04;46;18
Chris
That doesn't mean that someone who's subscribes to infant baptism can't be a part of harmony. Not at all. It's just that that we're going to have, you know, different positions on that.

00;04;46;18 - 00;05;00;05
Brenton
Yeah, well, and I think this is a good example of something that can get even more complicated because there are positions on baptism that would take you out of orthodoxy, right?

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Chris
Correct.

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Brenton
So, yeah, if you believe that baptism is going to save you, then that is something that we're not going to capitulate on. Yeah.

00;05;08;04 - 00;05;28;03
Chris
Baptism. The baptismal regeneration is what you're talking about there is that there are churches and Christians who believe that you have to be baptized in order to be saved or that you are saved through baptism. And so we we would call that a heresy and we would be willing to be divided over that.

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Brenton
And yeah.

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Chris
So, yeah, I mean, it it takes quite a bit of wisdom and thoughtfulness about what, you know, different convictions fall in in and that are closer to absolutes and what are closer to opinions and what are some are in the middle. So yeah.

00;05;48;21 - 00;06;05;15
Brenton
Yeah. And I think that's why this conversation can be so complicated because not only are we, you know, sometimes disagreeing on the substance of these beliefs, but also where they should fall in the importance. And so, yeah, you're right, it takes a lot of wisdom to work that out.

00;06;05;22 - 00;06;40;00
Chris
I think the most important thing here, though, is knowing the gospel and the absolutes and like that. Those are the things we want to be as, as clear on as possible, because anyone who holds the same gospel in the same absolutes, we should count as a brother or sister, and we should be very humble and gracious in our interactions about anything that is not and an absolute or or the gospel.

00;06;40;02 - 00;07;04;05
Chris
And obviously we should always be humble in our conversations with people, but we should not be be willing to easily be divided over anything. That's not a a gospel issue, not an absolute issue. And then on the other side, being careful to to make sure that anything that the Bible doesn't clearly command or prohibit, we put in the opinion category.

00;07;04;05 - 00;07;40;21
Chris
And one thing that can help us with that is to look historically at what the church and the church has viewed as, you know, absolutes, convictions and opinions. Not that. And that's we're talking about tradition. You know, the tradition is infallible by any stretch of the imagination. But if Christians have disagreed over something for the last 2000 years and different Christians have had different opinions on it, then we should not put it in the absolute category and probably should put it lower down on the totem pole of the convictions and maybe even put it into an opinion category.

00;07;40;24 - 00;07;42;24
Chris
So. Okay.

00;07;42;27 - 00;08;11;01
Brenton
Okay, good. So we did get quite a few questions from from you guys this week. And I've kind of decided to work these in into some of my own questions. So most of them will get answered, but they're not going to be as specific as usual. So, there's just a lot to cover here. So we're going to start out with how should these differences and beliefs be treated?

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Brenton
For example, say two members of our church disagree on a topic like eschatology or baptism? Ideally, what would you like to see happen between those two?

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Chris
I first of all, cannot imagine two people in our church disagreeing on the two topics you just mentioned.

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Brenton
So it's a practical question.

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Chris
Yeah, well, I think that there certainly is room for discussing issues respectfully and lovingly, and I think there's certainly a time and a place for that. I think we've got to be careful that we don't overdo that and where it becomes just that this is a constant ongoing discussion and we kind of just discuss it, to discuss it, and we just refuse to let go of trying to persuade somebody else of our position on that.

00;09;01;01 - 00;09;26;12
Chris
I do think that there is a time and place for that, but we've got to recognize that. I think we are all prone when we hold something strongly to to to getting riled up about it and to having a discussion in a way that either is sinful or produces in in in somebody else. And, you know, it leads to that in in all of that and leads to conflict.

00;09;26;12 - 00;10;02;17
Chris
So I think it's important that we always begin and I know I've said this already in this podcast, we're going to keep saying it. Let's let's make sure that we rally around the gospel and we we hold that so dear to ourselves and and so dear our unity with others who hold the same gospel that these discussions on issues where we can disagree, they they just they don't ever rise to the level where we're button to button heads.

00;10;02;17 - 00;10;21;18
Chris
And so we can have this discussion in like that. You and I here could, you know, have have a discussion about a whole host of issues and we have in the past and then just be able to to walk out the door and like, okay, but so that that that's good. And if you can have those kind of conversations, great.

00;10;21;20 - 00;10;42;29
Chris
But we've got to be careful that we just don't get to the place where that actually breaks, you know, relationships and all. And we don't also get so caught up in I mean, I used to be like this when I was a younger pastor as I was like, I just like to argue about it and debate about it.

00;10;43;02 - 00;11;17;24
Chris
And I yeah. And, you know, maybe there's some some some place for that, But we can just get so focused on these things that we lose sight of the big picture. And when we lose sight of the big picture, really the enemy, the enemy wins. And he he is very intent. I mean, he on I think a lot of times distracting us from the big issue or the most important issues by bye other more minor issues not that they're necessarily unimportant, but we get so wrapped up in that that we get distracted from our mission.

00;11;17;26 - 00;11;48;05
Brenton
Yeah, we all have our hobby horses for sure. You know, one, one question I had and maybe just clarification as I was thinking through this is you, you always brought it back to the gospel of unity in the church. And I obviously agree that that's core. But if, if the conversations are or the discussions or debate or however you want to frame that is discouraged.

00;11;48;05 - 00;12;06;05
Brenton
I wonder if the in the local church if an agreement on the gospel is enough to have a a well-functioning church, like if that's the only thing that everybody's agreeing on and everybody disagrees on these secondary issues? Is that is that a unified church?

00;12;06;08 - 00;12;43;09
Chris
Yeah, no, I don't think so. I think that it is important for us to have connections in common as well in order for the church to function. Let me give a guess a couple of examples here, just because I think it's helpful to make this just as practical as possible. Churches have different, different convictions regarding polity. Yeah, I grew up in churches where there were pastors and deacons and they weren't called pastors weren't called elders, they were called pastors.

00;12;43;09 - 00;13;10;21
Chris
And it wasn't clear if the pastors were the elders or the deacons or the elders, because the the deacon board would actually be the board that kind of had the authority in the church. And and so and there are lots of churches like that. Many Baptist churches are like that is you have a pastor or two or several and then the deacons are in and somewhat in a way, they kind of function as like what an elder to our elder team would do.

00;13;10;23 - 00;13;33;12
Chris
So that's a difference in in polity in my my, my home church actually right now is going through this process of considering moving toward an elder deacon polity rather than just a pastor deacon polity. So that that's an important condition for a church in order for us to be able to agree on, in order to be able to function well, we've got to have an agreement on that.

00;13;33;18 - 00;14;03;10
Chris
Another example somewhat related to that is the position that a church would have in regards to women in ministry and can women be elders or not? Our position is really, really clear and our position is really clear because we believe the Bible is really clear on this. Know that this is not a it's not an absolute. So we're not saying that people who disagree with us on this are not not Christians.

00;14;03;10 - 00;14;33;00
Chris
But, you know, we need to be, you know, in agreement on this. And our leadership certainly needs to be in agreement on this or it's just not going to function well. And there's there's a whole host of other things that we could bring up, and then there would be some convictions where we can just kind of say, like, for example, when it comes to we got into this a little bit last week, but was maybe known as the saying gifts we have.

00;14;33;01 - 00;14;53;26
Chris
We don't have a defined, strong, defined position on that issue. And so people at Harmony have various convictions on that. And we seem to relate to one another pretty well. And it doesn't impede our ability to be able to function as a church.

00;14;53;29 - 00;15;18;19
Brenton
So yeah, and maybe I mean, it comes down to just, you know, knowing how to how to have a debate without taking things personally and without like being identifying as our beliefs. We need to identify as, you know, or through through the gospel. We are we can identify with Christ more than what our beliefs are and to not be offended by those things.

00;15;18;19 - 00;15;24;03
Brenton
And I think that we can have some really healthy discussion if we do that.

00;15;24;05 - 00;15;58;22
Chris
Yeah, well, you also hear and this gets really complex, we'll get into that you have, you know, our position convictions in regard to two doctrines, but you also have positions, convictions in regard to things like behavior, ethical, ethical commands in regards to that. And I brought up some of those a number of those on Sunday, you know, regarding alcohol and dress and on and on.

00;15;58;25 - 00;16;25;13
Chris
I think one of the things, especially when it comes to some of these ethical matters that that complicates it is we tend to tie our identity sometimes to what we do or we don't do. Yeah. Yeah. And and so I'm a person who doesn't do this or I'm a person who does do this. And that becomes actually part of our identity.

00;16;25;16 - 00;16;48;29
Chris
And instead of our identity is found in Christ. And when we can't separate who we are from the things that we do or don't do, that that can can really make it difficult to have these conversations. You know, that's good. Not that those things aren't related like who we are and what we do or don't do are related, but they're not the same thing.

00;16;48;29 - 00;17;22;28
Chris
Like I, I am I am righteous in Christ. I have a fully accepted and fully loved by God and that is, regardless of what my position is in regards to alcohol or dress or tattoos, piercings, you can kind of go on and on down the list. And one of the things that Paul's showing us here in Romans 14 is that two people can have different opinions and even different convictions on non absolutes and still be pleasing to God.

00;17;22;28 - 00;17;28;19
Chris
They can they can still be his children. And we have we have a really, really hard time with that.

00;17;28;21 - 00;17;54;17
Brenton
Yeah. Okay. So yeah, kind of going along with that and playing off one of our listeners questions, How should we engage brothers and sisters who have strong convictions that don't come from faith, or at least we don't think they come from faith, but rather come out of fear. Getting practical here.

00;17;54;19 - 00;18;39;21
Chris
Yeah, I don't want to oversimplify this, but I do think this is again why we we have to be gospel centered and we have to go go back over and over again and talk to our brothers and sisters about what the gospel is and what those absolutes are and try to help them see that that what what they're, you know, focusing on is is is not something that you have to actually believe in in order to be a believer and to be unified with with other believers.

00;18;39;21 - 00;19;11;09
Chris
And I think we should also hopefully and graciously and gently try to help them to see that perhaps they're being formed more by what they're reading, what they're hearing, listening to watching, than they are being formed by what the scriptures actually say. And maybe we'll talk about this more next week in going back to to verse five, because it's also going to come up this week.

00;19;11;09 - 00;19;48;10
Chris
But we all need to be fully convinced in our own mind, which means we all need to give ourselves fully to praying and praying through studying God's Word and asking for guidance from the Holy Spirit wisdom for how to apply that to each of these different areas of our of our lives. So I think just, you know, focusing in on the gospel and the absolutes and then then also being careful to make sure that we're being informed by the Scripture more than we are by by other outside sources.

00;19;48;17 - 00;19;50;06
Chris
Yeah.

00;19;50;08 - 00;20;11;03
Brenton
Yeah. I think we all kind of have an idea of what it feels like to hold a conviction really, really tightly and then, you know, kind of come up against pushback on that. And it's it's hard. And yeah, nobody wants to wants to go through that. And I think that we have the tendency to push back and to fight that.

00;20;11;06 - 00;20;41;18
Brenton
And so I think maybe some of it is just humility on the receiving part of that too, too to really consider what the other person is saying. But so along with with that about being fully convinced of our of our convictions, would you add to that the, you know, ability to be wrong in that like that? We're always kind of holding these.

00;20;41;20 - 00;20;49;16
Brenton
We're convinced of them totally, but we still kind of hold them with an open hand to where we're open to having our minds changed.

00;20;49;18 - 00;21;13;01
Chris
Yeah, I do want to give a call. I yes, but I have a caution here because in, in the day that we are living in like people want, like everything is open, right? It's open to we could be wrong about everything and know there's certain things we we're not going to be wrong again because the word of God is clearly, clearly spoken.

00;21;13;01 - 00;21;36;05
Chris
And I mean, I don't want to just breeze past this point because it's it's a huge one. Today is like everything is kind of open. The Bible might say that or might not say that you're fine to believe what you believe and let me believe what I believe and all this kind of stuff. But with that being said, I think humility is so, so huge here.

00;21;36;08 - 00;22;02;19
Chris
Yeah, it really, really is. Is that yes, we need to be humble. That other people may see things, see something better than we do, have a better understanding. We need to be humble to recognize that we could be we could be wrong. And I've had to come to that place on a regular basis in my life is like what I what I thought the Bible said or what I thought the right position was on.

00;22;02;19 - 00;22;23;22
Chris
This was was not in. And so this is again, why I got to go back to the Bible over and over again and submit our you know, submit our are thinking and our, you know, opinions and convictions and all like, okay, what is the what is the Bible really say?

00;22;23;24 - 00;22;49;28
Brenton
Well, that's that's how we grow, right? If you think back in your life there's I can think of a lot of things for me that like I held a belief very, very tightly until I was convinced otherwise. And that's a lot of the reason why I'm here right now. And so I think being being open while still being convinced of your position, I think is a is a good thing.

00;22;49;28 - 00;23;01;06
Brenton
I don't think we want to get stuck in a place where, you know, our eschatological system is the most important thing and we will we refuse to ever change our mind on it. You have wrong there.

00;23;01;09 - 00;23;28;21
Chris
No, you know, I'm with you. And I think at the same time, it's it's again, it's not that we just want to be, you know, super flexible. Like we we change with the whatever wind way the wind is blowing that we know that we're going to go there and it's and I hope everybody understands. I'm not saying we're not saying that convictions and even opinions are unimportant, Like they don't matter.

00;23;28;21 - 00;23;57;24
Chris
They do. It's just we have to to recognize that there are different levels of importance and and we need to try our best. And it takes work to keep everything in and give them their proper priority and to be to be always to be humble and always to be gracious, but to be less firm, the less important the issue is and the less clear.

00;23;57;24 - 00;24;12;00
Chris
This scripture is on that. Like like there are certain things we're going to hold on to and we're not we're not going to let go. And then there are other issues that we need to hold with a much less stronger grip, I guess I would say.

00;24;12;03 - 00;24;39;28
Brenton
Yeah. So continuing off of the last question a little bit, what if what if a person that holds a belief like that that, you know, from our stance comes out of fear rather than from Scripture? What if that person tends to dominate the conversation when we when we have these conversations and how this listener put it? He says he he says it can feel like a Cold War where we simply refuse to engage because we don't know how to do it productively.

00;24;40;01 - 00;25;17;24
Chris
Yeah, I don't think I've got a very good answer to this. I think this is probably one of those questions where it's it's almost going to be answer on a case by case basis, given the context and the background of where the person comes from and what they're struggling with. And sometimes we just have to lovingly say, Hey, I'm not going to be able to to keep having this conversation and you're making this issue so central here that it's actually being harmful to our ability to have a productive discussion.

00;25;17;24 - 00;25;42;20
Chris
I could see this happening in, you know, like community groups. And so the leaders may have to say, listen, we can't keep bringing this up and having this conversation, but it's not beneficial to to the group. And you just might have to be you may have to get to a place where you get pointed with that person gently, gently, kindly, but but pointed it and say, hey, we can't continue to go along this issue.

00;25;42;20 - 00;25;56;08
Chris
And sometimes maybe you do give people more room because you want to hopefully gently bring them along. And then sometimes you might have to just be like, hey, this is this has got to be this has got to stop. So yeah.

00;25;56;11 - 00;26;19;26
Brenton
Yeah, Well, yeah, obviously it's going to take judgment, especially if other people are involved in getting it like in a small group situation and people are are being negatively impacted by it. But I, you know, I love to debate things all the time. And so like, I'm always up for those kind of conversations. So like and maybe it's just different from person to person.

00;26;19;29 - 00;26;24;27
Brenton
I know it can be exhausting, but I think that I at least find some enjoyment out of it.

00;26;24;27 - 00;26;51;00
Chris
So yeah, I think we've just got to always like, especially when we're in a group, we've got to think about what's going to be best for, for the, the group here and knowing like you, you have some members in, in a, in a group who who are really sensitive to any kind of tension or conflict and they have a really hard time with it.

00;26;51;02 - 00;27;17;29
Chris
And and and you know is this going to be beneficial? That really should be our mindset. Like, is this beneficial for for the other person that I'm talking to? And so so sometimes maybe it will be beneficial to have those, you know, debates and then a lot of times maybe it won't be. And maybe we need to step aside and say, Hey, we'll just have this one off conversation.

00;27;18;00 - 00;27;20;03
Chris
Just you and I are going to have this discussion. Yeah, I'm.

00;27;20;07 - 00;27;43;29
Brenton
Yeah, good. But all right. So one thing that you've you've done that I think is is going to be helpful for this conversation is you kind of laid out a graphic and we're going to see it Sunday. But on it are four different categories. And these are categories we've been talking about, but they're gospel absolutes, convictions and opinions.

00;27;44;02 - 00;28;10;18
Brenton
And the idea is that we we could lay out all of our beliefs and they will fit somewhere in one of these categories. The problem that we run into sometimes is that we can not only disagree on a certain belief, but also disagree about where a topic falls in importance. So as you've considered this, what has been your rubric for deciding where certain certain topics should fall and how should we approach this?

00;28;10;18 - 00;28;21;14
Brenton
And I'm not looking for like specifics here, but just generally, like how how should we think about this? I'm sure specifics are fine too, if you have any.

00;28;21;17 - 00;28;41;17
Chris
So yeah, this is I think that the graphic that we're going to lay out on Sunday will be helpful to help us to think through these things. But I want to emphasize it, to help us to think through these things. And this is again, back to verse five. You've got to be fully convinced in our own minds, which means it's going to take it.

00;28;41;17 - 00;29;22;17
Chris
It takes study, it's going to take prayers, can help take thought and and I think it's helpful for us to here to look at church history and to look at those who've come before us and to see how how they have handled these situations. And again, it's not it's not scripture, but it is helpful that if for 2000 years, you know, the church has put something in in a category or assigned a certain amount of importance to something that that should, you know, that should speak to us and should help to inform our decision on on those things.

00;29;22;17 - 00;29;55;03
Chris
Now, we may agree or we may disagree, but I would say like if if Christians for 2000 years have had a variety of opinions on something that would probably indicate is that it's it's kind of down the totem pole, so to speak, as to how important that that doctrine is. And I would also say for me, because you're asking my rubric, I go back to the gospel and I think about, obviously, you know, what is a gospel issue as an absolute.

00;29;55;03 - 00;30;28;26
Chris
But also then how important are these convictions, maybe what we call secondary issues. Okay, How important are these secondary issues to the gospel? Like if we if we compromise on this or we have the wrong position on this, what does that do to the gospel? How does that impact the gospel? And and so this is why and I'm speaking personally here, we'll go back to the the gender roles in the church and in the home.

00;30;28;28 - 00;31;03;12
Chris
Paul makes it clear that in Ephesians chapter five that marriage is meant to be a picture of the relationship between Christ and the church. And so if we have the wrong view about gender roles in marriage, then that actually hasn't is directly related to the gospel. And so I wouldn't say that someone who disagrees with me in regard to gender roles is not a believer.

00;31;03;14 - 00;31;30;20
Chris
But I would say it's a pretty important issue because Paul says it. He points out that it's meant to illustrate in the picture the gospel. And so I don't know if that that's helpful or not, but I do think what is his historically the church, you know, how they handles these issues, how much disagreement or agreement has the church historically had on these issues?

00;31;30;22 - 00;31;56;21
Chris
And you know, because where the church has had a lot of agreement, that should say it has pretty, pretty important for us to hold to that where the church has had more disagreement. That's you know, there's probably more flexibility in there. But then also, how is this doctrine related to the gospel? Not everything, every conviction doctrine is related to the gospel in some way, but some things are more closely related and in flow out of it than than others.

00;31;56;21 - 00;32;04;27
Brenton
Yeah, there's certainly implications of all of our beliefs that eventually work back to the gospel, and that's where it gets fuzzy for me at least.

00;32;04;29 - 00;32;07;21
Chris
Yeah, Yeah.

00;32;07;24 - 00;32;33;07
Brenton
One thing you talked about this morning was, you know, the the difference between something that is maybe held out of ignorance as opposed to something that is like intentionally denied. And so, like, if somebody intentionally denies the Trinity, that's very different than just the ignorance of the Trinity. Can you talk about that a little bit?

00;32;33;10 - 00;33;07;11
Chris
Sure. So the graphic to use is actually I mean, it's adapted from others, but I actually added something to it that I have seen other places. And so there's there's absolute rights. There are conviction, there's opinions. I added actually the gospel in the center of it and the reason I added the gospel in the center of it is because someone does not have to affirm the Trinity in order to believe the gospel and be saved.

00;33;07;16 - 00;33;32;03
Chris
Yeah, the and and and so historically, this goes back to the church. The church didn't come to an agreement on what the Scripture teaches about the Trinity until the fourth century A.D. Okay. So they were wrestling through it. And so in trying to figure that out, it's obviously it's it's you know, it's complex. And so somebody can, you know, impulses.

00;33;32;03 - 00;33;57;12
Chris
First Corinthians chapter 15, Here's a matter for support. And this is the gospel in this book. That's why which you're being saved and basically says that Christ diverse sins and was raised again. And so that's what someone needs to believe in order to be saved. And so Christians to be saved doesn't mean that you have to understand all of the absolute.

00;33;57;12 - 00;34;20;21
Chris
But what it will mean is that a Christian will not deny any of the absolutes. They will not deny, you know, and talk about Christ. The dual natures of Jesus is fully God and fully man. So you don't have to fully understand that in order to be saved. But a Christian will, will will not deny that because ultimately, if you deny that, you're denying the gospel.

00;34;20;23 - 00;34;37;05
Chris
Yeah. So, so we won't want to say somebody has to fully understand Christology in order to be saved. But but if they are saved, then they will not deny the clear teachings of Scripture about the nature of Christ.

00;34;37;07 - 00;34;38;03
Brenton
Yep.

00;34;38;06 - 00;34;39;07
Chris
Does that make sense? That makes.

00;34;39;07 - 00;34;39;25
Brenton
Perfect sense.

00;34;39;25 - 00;34;49;13
Chris
Yeah. So that's why. And we'll fleshes out more on Sunday. But why I think it's necessary to to have that gospel at the center. Yeah.

00;34;49;16 - 00;35;15;23
Brenton
Yeah. And obviously we would, we would hope that you know someone that becomes a Christian doesn't understand that stuff at first is disabled into that stuff and does come to accept those truths in a deeper way later on as they are sanctified and as they grow and knowledge. Okay, one last listener question, which I think is honestly, it's it's a topic that probably doesn't get discussed that much, at least in detail.

00;35;15;25 - 00;35;42;17
Brenton
And I I'm guessing there's a lot of questions over this. So her question is based off Romans 1412 and that verses. So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. And one thing you had mentioned on Sunday was that you once that final judgment happens, believers will will get rewards and and that's mentioned other places in the New Testament.

00;35;42;19 - 00;35;57;00
Brenton
So as her question and so as a believer what are these rewards how do I know if I'm doing enough? Should I work super hard all the time so I get more rewards? You got any thoughts on that?

00;35;57;02 - 00;36;22;03
Chris
I think a couple of other passages that are helpful here. One from Second Corinthians chapter five, and this is probably actually where it's coming from more than Romans 1412. But so Corinthians 510 before we all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and it's called the Bema seat, interesting story of actually being in Corinth or Corinth, and there's actually the Bema seat, is there?

00;36;22;04 - 00;36;42;16
Chris
So it's really, really cool. And Paul was thinking of that one when he wrote that. But the other passage would be First Corinthians chapter three, where Paul talks about and and I don't read it all is a little bit of a longer passage, but he talks about no one can lay a foundation other than that which is lay, which is Jesus Christ.

00;36;42;16 - 00;37;02;28
Chris
And then we have a choice as believers. Once we've we've you know, we've believed in Christ, and he's the foundation if we're going to build on that, he says with gold, silver precious stones, wood, hair, straw. And he says that, you know, each one's work will become may know for the day will disclose it. That's a big the capital day judgment day.

00;37;03;01 - 00;37;25;10
Chris
And he goes on if the work that anyone is built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss. So he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. And so what you're talking about here is, you know what? What have we done with our life, with our time, our talents, our treasures?

00;37;25;13 - 00;37;52;04
Chris
Have we steward those in such a way that they have helped to build the church, to see God's kingdom expand on this earth? Or have we simply taken our time, treasures and talent and spent them on ourselves and whatever we want to do? Have we done with them what God would have us to do with them? What just simply we would want to do with them?

00;37;52;04 - 00;38;12;28
Chris
And if we have stewarded well, then we're guaranteed at that judgment like those things are going to go on and they're going to last forever. And if we've not sorted, well, all of that stuff is just going to be it. It's going to be it's going to be a loss. And it's it's done. It's gone. It will not go on to us an eternity.

00;38;12;28 - 00;38;36;23
Chris
So think about in the story about Jesus's literary treasure in heaven, not on Earth, but in heaven, because, you know, if we lay it up there, we're going to have it for all, all eternity. And and so I think that that's that's primarily what sorry about. And it's not that we should just simply, you know, like, we got to we got to work really, really hard.

00;38;36;23 - 00;39;09;04
Chris
That's that's not the point here. So that will get more rewards. It's it's more about intentionally stewarding all that God has given us for the sake of his kingdom. And sometimes that means not working harder. It means actually working with working less. It means resting more in him. It means not driving ourselves relentlessly all the time. And it's not so much about being focused on even the I don't think the point here, honestly is rewards.

00;39;09;06 - 00;39;32;15
Chris
The point is serving the Lord, and maybe I should say this and I'll be done. I think that the rewards are primarily two things. The rewards are people, the people that will be there and the relationships that we will have because of how we've invested here on this earth and this time and how we've put it into God's kingdom.

00;39;32;18 - 00;40;00;20
Chris
And then I think the other is recognition. And it's recognition from from the Lord that we will he will recognize our labor of love and how we have served him, in fact. So and where I take this from first or sorry, first, Peter, Chapter five where where Paul talks to his fellow elders. I'm sorry. Peter talks his fellow fellow elders and he says, If you shepherd well, you'll receive the unfailing crown of glory.

00;40;00;22 - 00;40;12;27
Chris
And that unfailing crowning glory, I believe, is actually an unfailing and eternal recognition from King Jesus for how well we have served him.

00;40;13;00 - 00;40;16;08
Brenton
So you're saying I'm not getting my actual jewels in Crown?

00;40;16;10 - 00;40;35;25
Chris
I That's exactly what I'm saying. Well, but I mean, what's what's better than having recognition from the king that you have served? You have served me well. What's a better than to hear? Well done, good and faithful servant, Enter into the joy of your master.

00;40;36;00 - 00;40;53;13
Brenton
Yeah, well, and on the other side of this, don't forget the gospel as well. That. That you, you know, you are already right with God. And so it's, it's not a competition of of who can do the most works. I think we just need to live out our our salvation in Christ and it will be rewarded.

00;40;53;15 - 00;40;55;12
Chris
It's great great noting.

00;40;55;15 - 00;41;07;22
Brenton
Okay well we got to what we could today. We'll be back with more next week. I'm enjoying the discussion and I hope that you guys keep seven questions. And so thanks, Chris, and we will talk to you next week.