Episode 54: Don’t Waste Your Life

00;00;02;16 - 00;00;22;24
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth, the transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further. I'm Brian Graham. And today we have Chris Carr here with us. How's it going?

00;00;22;26 - 00;00;25;04
Chris
Pretty good. Looking forward to our discussion today.

00;00;25;07 - 00;00;54;08
Brenton
Yeah. So to start this out this week is Global Week, which is it's been really, really cool to see some of the stuff that we've we've done for it. So we've had some some guests here that are really just making a huge impact in other places in the world and have lots of events this week. So can you talk a little bit about what we're doing for Global Week, why we do it and how it's going?

00;00;54;10 - 00;01;29;27
Chris
Sure. This is become an annual kind of event for us, for us just to take some time to focus on really the global mission that God has and has invited us into to see the Gospel go to all the peoples of the world, to spread the theme of his name, to all the nations. And it's just a great time for us to keep that in front of our church body and also to interact with some of our field staff and feel partners spend time in prayer.

00;01;30;00 - 00;01;51;20
Chris
Hopefully, one of the biggest things we we're hoping for from this week is that God will raise up people to go. Clearly told in Luke ten and Matthew nine that were to pray that the Lord of the Harvest will send out labors into the harvest. And so we want to pray that this week and hopefully that will be the result.

00;01;51;21 - 00;02;13;01
Chris
So and it's just a really a great time for us to get a global perspective and kind of get out of our own bubble that we live in here in the Midwest and really even in the United States. And to see that God is a global God and what's going on in in the church is much bigger than than harmony Bible Church.

00;02;13;04 - 00;02;27;13
Brenton
Yeah, it's certainly easier to get caught up in what's going on here. We have we have a lot going on, but there is a lot going on in this world that that we're not involved with. And so it's it's good to hear what's going on, especially what God's doing in the world.

00;02;27;15 - 00;02;51;16
Chris
Yeah, it's also encouraging just to hear in the midst of all the if I could just say drama that we've got going on in our country and really globally, all of the the difficult things and the conflicts and even wars that God's still working. And he is doing so in some very, very significant ways in some of the hardest places in the world.

00;02;51;16 - 00;03;12;14
Chris
So some of our guests here this week are literally ministering and in and to some of the hardest really places in the world and most gospel resistant places and people. And this is encouraging just to see how Jesus is building his church and nothing could stop it.

00;03;12;20 - 00;03;42;08
Brenton
Yeah, for sure. Well, so last week he preached on Romans 15 again, you did 14 to 33. So I'm going to start with something that you said. You talked about how worship leads to witness and how, you know, that's that cyclical because the process will repeat with the new believer. So can you talk more about the connection between worship and witness?

00;03;42;08 - 00;03;50;25
Brenton
Why Why does one lead to the other? And maybe what if it doesn't? What if it doesn't lead to the other?

00;03;50;28 - 00;04;15;20
Chris
Yeah, so that's a big question. And you may need to remind me of the second part of that, because I probably will go on for a little bit here because it's a really great question and really important one for us to be clear on. So the ultimate goal of the church and I just wanted to say this and keep reminding us when we say the church, we need to recognize that the church is made up of of believers.

00;04;15;20 - 00;04;43;26
Chris
And so all Christians are part of the the church. And so the ultimate goal of the church and therefore each individual, Christian, is is worship. We were created to worship sin really ruined our ability to be able to to truly worship God instead of worshiping him. We worship created things. We'll talk about that in our homes. Chapter one Jesus came to save us and to redeem us and to restore us.

00;04;43;26 - 00;05;19;13
Chris
To worship, to to to do what we were created to do. And that's also what we will do for all eternity on the new heavens. And the Earth is is to worship the father of the son and in the spirit. And so worship, therefore, is the goal of the church and is therefore the goal of missions. So what we want to do and I will just quote John Piper here again, he says, is that emissions we simply aim to bring the nations into the white hot enjoyment of God's glory.

00;05;19;16 - 00;05;51;03
Chris
The goal of missions is the gladness of the peoples in the greatness of God. And a great passage here, Psalm 67 three and four Let the People's praise. You will God, let all the peoples praise you. Let the nations be glad and sing for joy. So that's that is the ultimate goal there of the church and of missions is see people come into to worshiping the Lord, to being glad, to singing for joy over who he is and what he has done for us.

00;05;51;05 - 00;06;21;07
Chris
But then it is also worship is also the the fuel of missions or worship is a fuel of witness. And I'm going to quote Piper again here, because what he has to say, I just think really nails it. He says, you can't commend what you don't cherish. Okay. So in other words, worship is the fuel emissions, because if we're not worshiping the Lord, we're not cherishing him.

00;06;21;07 - 00;06;52;11
Chris
We're not going to commend him to other people. And so it's the goal, but it's also the fuel that drives us out of that. And I think we all can easily recognize that. We will commend what we worship. Okay. Or what we're maybe that's what we were passionate about in if you know, all the Kansas City Chiefs fans right now, they're going to commend, you know, their team and because they're passionate about it in some ways, maybe they're worshiping it.

00;06;52;11 - 00;07;14;10
Chris
And you can use that for a bunch of sports teams here in Iowa. Everybody's talking about Caitlin Clark. Right. And because they are passionate about her, they love her. And and so they're going to commend her. Hey, you know, go to the game, You watch, you know, how great she is. And in a nutshell, that's that's that's how worship and witness are connected.

00;07;14;10 - 00;07;47;25
Chris
And they're connected and in every area of life, whatever we're passionate about, we're going to witness about. And so then to this, the second part of your question, I did remember it would have what if worship doesn't lead to witness? Yeah. I mean, I think here this is where we had to go back to the gospel. And if we're not seen, do we do we really truly understand the gospel and what God has done for us in Christ Jesus?

00;07;47;25 - 00;08;23;11
Chris
Do we we really grasp how lost we were and hopeless we were, as Paul says, and Ephesians two without God, without hope in the world. But when we were dead in our trespasses and sins, you know, God made us alive in Christ. Jesus is by grace, you're saved. And so if we if we really, really get that and how great it truly is, we're we're naturally going to want other people to join us in that greatness and and and to experience the same salvation that we have.

00;08;23;11 - 00;08;51;10
Chris
And so if we have a witness problem, we really have a gospel problem. And that doesn't mean that we're not saved, because I think evangelism is one of the predominant things that believers, they struggle with. It just means that that we we really need to go back and to dig into the gospel. And we need to immerse ourselves in it.

00;08;51;10 - 00;09;04;24
Chris
And then we probably also, from a practical standpoint, we probably also need to learn how to actually share the gospel and how to witness and get equipped in order to do so.

00;09;04;26 - 00;09;44;15
Brenton
Yeah, well, I think this should at least be a, you know, a a flag for you, a warning sign that if if that's not something that's even on your radar, then I think we should recognize that as a problem. And maybe that's step one is just recognizing that that there is a problem with that. Yeah, but I will say a, I love the quote by Piper because I think it puts a positive view on on missions instead of a you know, we need to rescue people from from hell.

00;09;44;17 - 00;09;56;16
Brenton
It's we want to invite them into what we are already invited into. And so yeah, I think that that's that's an important way to look at it. Instead of this duty. It's an invitation to people.

00;09;56;18 - 00;10;23;26
Chris
Yeah. And this is one of the reasons there are many of them. But I think that corporate worship is so important as we come together and we worship the Lord together and, and through preaching for sure, but also through fellowship, being with one another, encouraging one another, speaking into one another. And in singing together and worshiping him with our voices.

00;10;23;26 - 00;10;35;10
Chris
Is that it? It is is part of the way that we get fueled, energized, motivated to go out and to hopefully invite other people into that worship.

00;10;35;10 - 00;10;55;20
Brenton
Yeah, absolutely. In verse 17, Paul says that he has reason to be proud of his work for God. He's referring to the growth in the Roman Church, largely from his efforts. So I'm curious as as the lead pastor of Harmony for coming up on 15 years, right?

00;10;55;23 - 00;10;56;08
Chris
13.

00;10;56;08 - 00;11;10;10
Brenton
13. Yeah, that's still a long time. Can you relate to his feelings here at all? I mean, how how would you describe the growth that's taken place here since you joined? And what are your your your feelings as pastor?

00;11;10;14 - 00;11;35;24
Chris
Yeah, I want to be careful here on two fronts. We're first of all, not the Apostle Paul or even close. And I think everybody here is right now is going obviously you don't need to tell us that. So and then the second thing is, you know, is just to be careful to about, you know, this is the Lord's work for sure.

00;11;35;26 - 00;12;07;26
Chris
And it's also a work that that lots of people have have helped in. And so I, you know, obviously have the most visible role in the church, But there are a lot of other men and women who partner with me, whether it be on our leadership team, whether it be on our staff team and and, you know, a hundreds and hundreds of people in the church body who have played a huge role in this.

00;12;07;26 - 00;12;42;25
Chris
But with those things said yeah it's it's really amazing I was last night I was out to dinner with our Lebanese partners who are here this week and I was just talking with them about how I on a regular basis, just in, you know, have these moments are like, I just cannot believe all that God has done and would have never imagined that he would have done as much as he's done during the last decade plus.

00;12;42;25 - 00;13;12;02
Chris
And so it's it's pretty, pretty amazing. And I primarily, though I always want to make this clear, is that, yes, the church has grown and numerically a lot. And yes, we were in multiple locations and we have a city health foundation that's ministering in a number of different communities and sending out field staff and, you know, planning churches around the world and and all of that.

00;13;12;04 - 00;13;47;06
Chris
And and it's it's just it's pretty amazing. And it's a it's a work that I don't say defies logic, but it's it blows me away. And especially when, you know, you look at a guy who did didn't plan on being a pastor, did not want to be a pastor, doesn't have, you know, training at least in institutional training, didn't go to seminary and you know, and yeah and so and so here we are it's this is not anything that I planned or ever expected.

00;13;47;06 - 00;13;52;26
Chris
And yet the Lord just sees fit to do to do a good work so well.

00;13;52;26 - 00;14;05;10
Brenton
I don't think that Paul expects in his life either. So I think we yeah, yeah. I mean everything that, that every member of this church does is by the grace of God. And yeah.

00;14;05;10 - 00;14;23;08
Chris
I mean, maybe, maybe this will be helpful. I, I had this potentially to talk about on Sunday, but as I told you before we went on here, I had to cut a thousand words out of the message to make sure that we had had it concluded the service concluded at a reasonable time. But, you.

00;14;23;08 - 00;14;24;10
Brenton
Know, we're still over your time.

00;14;24;18 - 00;14;59;29
Chris
yeah. Or normally. But, you know, I got a text last week from from somebody who who said, I'm just coming to realize how, you know, hard in a heavy role like you have and, you know, when I got that, I was like, yeah, I mean, there's certainly hardness and heaviness to it. It's been that way today. You know, some some situation or two that's going on that that's really, really difficult.

00;14;59;29 - 00;15;32;03
Chris
But that's not the way I don't really feel all the over arching feeling that I have is not a hardness or heaviness, but of a privilege and excitement over what I get to do. And I in many ways believe I'm the most blessed person I know have a say in the world. But but certainly, yeah, maybe I would say in the world there's nothing else I would rather do or rather be a part of than than this.

00;15;32;03 - 00;15;37;02
Chris
And so, yeah, it's hard and heavy at times, but it's also just a pretty amazing.

00;15;37;09 - 00;15;47;18
Brenton
Yeah, well, you are appreciated here, so. All right now on to signs and wonders This is why you it.

00;15;47;18 - 00;15;49;17
Chris
Was going so well It was going so well I.

00;15;49;17 - 00;16;12;11
Brenton
Know. Okay. So we're going to go just to versus ahead. And I think here I'll just I'll just read the section for I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to the to bring the Gentiles to obedience by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God.

00;16;12;14 - 00;16;19;13
Brenton
So the signs and wonders line there. What what are we supposed to take from that?

00;16;19;15 - 00;16;54;22
Chris
Yeah, this was another one of those places that I had to cut. But, you know, Miles was talking about things like healing is talking about performing miracles. And, you know, he calls these and Second Corinthians chapter 12, the signs of an apostle. So I don't want to in any way deny that God may be working through signed in wonders today.

00;16;54;29 - 00;17;30;03
Chris
And and so please don't hear me saying that at all. But I do want to emphasize that I think Paul makes it pretty clear in that second four Athens 12 passage and and and he says here this is what I did. This is descriptive. It's not prescriptive that these the apostles and their close associates and in the the founding of the church, in New Testament church, especially as they would go out and plant churches in unreached locations, would be to authenticate the gospel message.

00;17;30;05 - 00;18;04;11
Chris
And that I think that the the Bible then is this is my position and there are people who would would disagree with this both in a church and in broader Christianity. But by and large, those those things are really for the authenticating of the gospel message in a place where it is not reached before and that we should not normally expect that these things are going to occur in our context.

00;18;04;12 - 00;18;27;09
Chris
And here's the reason is that we have the the word of God. We have God's full revelation, we have the scriptures, we have an established church. And again, I don't want to deny that they could the guy can do whatever he wants to do. Okay? And so I'm not saying that that he doesn't, but I think it's easy to look at a passage like this and to say, okay, signs of wonders.

00;18;27;09 - 00;18;42;21
Chris
Those are the primary deeds that Paul did, and therefore those are the primary deeds that we should do. And I would say two things. First of all, they're not the primary deeds of Paul. Paul That's a point that I made on Sunday, and he makes that clear in the rest of the passage and really in the rest of the testament.

00;18;42;21 - 00;19;19;12
Chris
In fact, when he's talking about things like speaking in tongues and in First Corinthians, he he actually says, I would rather speak like ten, ten words. And then, do you know, a thousand or 10,000 speaking in tongues, in 10,000 words. And so they weren't the primary ways that were deeds of Paul did, and they therefore are not the primary deeds that we should think that we're going to do either.

00;19;19;14 - 00;19;29;14
Chris
And the primary deeds would be, as I talked about, meaning physical material needs and living lives that make the gospel attractive.

00;19;29;16 - 00;19;34;05
Brenton
Yeah, I don't think we've really had the association is continuation is.

00;19;34;12 - 00;19;38;26
Chris
Conversation, but we just got into it a little bit there. So yeah.

00;19;38;28 - 00;20;09;03
Brenton
Yeah, I think that's good for today. That was helpful. I'm sure we'll get into it eventually. okay. On to some practical things. So you open your message by talking about John Piper's sermon where he gave two examples of retirement. One example was two ladies who died while giving their lives to spread the gospel, and the other was a couple who retired and collected seashells.

00;20;09;06 - 00;20;41;24
Brenton
The you know, the point was clear that we don't want to waste our lives even as we get older. And this passage shows Paul is as a perfect example of what we should do. How should the people of harmony, you know, in their thirties, forties, fifties view, retirement, what what steps should we take? And I know you kind of you kind of went over this on Sunday, but I'm kind of looking for practical steps that we can take to prepare to remain faithful and fruitful in that time.

00;20;41;26 - 00;21;22;29
Chris
Yeah. So we'll get practical here in a second. First of all, let me say a couple of things. One, that the Bible has nothing to say about retirement, and so that doesn't mean that it's wrong to retire. So please don't hear me saying that. But the second thing, though, we do need to recognize is that, you know, it is the American dream to make as much money as you can and then to retire as soon as you can and just to sail off and to take it easy and that's that's just not a biblical view of of life.

00;21;22;29 - 00;22;03;06
Chris
It's that that's a that's a view. And where life is primarily about us and our comfort and our safety. And so I would just say that we've got to maybe do do a reset on that. So if if we do retire and plan to retire, I would I would suggest that we should be thinking about, okay, how can we therefore spend more of our time giving it directly to God's global mission and to the furtherance of the gospel?

00;22;03;06 - 00;22;27;27
Chris
And so I think if you know, if somebody retires or even retires early, I don't I don't have a problem with that. And I don't think that the Scripture would have a problem with that. But how how are we going to use that, that retirement then not simply to go and to spend our time and her talents or treasures on herself, but how are we going to, you know, really even give more really to the gospel sake?

00;22;27;27 - 00;23;06;11
Chris
And here's a great thing we've got I'll give you just a couple examples. One would be we we have a number, not a few older retired people who help to run our cupboard. And and so that's in both in Burlington and Fort Madison. And without them, I don't think we would have the ministry that we have. And they're out there serving and just given their time, we have a number of retired people who are really involved in ministry here, in other ministries here celebrate recovery, and they do Bible studies and they serve in just a whole host and a variety of ways.

00;23;06;12 - 00;23;28;02
Chris
So that's really, really great. And just on a personal note, I look at me, my dad, so my dad retired. I think he was 67, 68 years old. He's he's now 75. But my dad's probably doing more ministry than than he's he's ever done. And he you know, he had to take a break for several years because of caring for my mom.

00;23;28;02 - 00;24;01;10
Chris
But he's he's still teaching the Sunday school class. He's still serving in various ministry. He's he's still pouring into people's lives, even, believe it or not, but just preached on a Sunday morning a few weeks ago. But at 76 years old. And so A that's just that's that's kind of what I think we're we're looking at there is is and so I would encourage people who are in their thirties, forties or fifties like so practically, let's be good stewards, okay?

00;24;01;10 - 00;24;29;18
Chris
Let's just try to make decisions now, especially in terms of career and finances that will perhaps set us up to to retire to maybe even a young age so that then we can go do short term mission trips or we can even maybe go serve in the mid term or even even the long term or how we can be give more of our time to to the church or on another side.

00;24;29;18 - 00;24;54;19
Chris
I use the example on Sunday of somebody who says, Hey, you know, I've I'm able to make quite a bit of money, but I'm not going to make that money just to, you know, for myself, I'm going to use it. I'm going to keep working because then I can give liberally to to the mission. And so it's just, you know, what is our my mindset is do we have a mission mindset or do we have a comfort mindset?

00;24;54;19 - 00;25;26;23
Chris
Do we have the American mindset or do we have a gospel mindset? And I would encourage our you know, you mentioned 30, 40, 50 years and you could start earlier and go later than that. But how are we you know, how are we thinking? How are how are we how you viewing that early? Don't wait until you are 60 to 65 or whatever, but have that mindset from the beginning and and try to be as good steward as you can to prepare for that time.

00;25;26;23 - 00;25;35;05
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. I think every time this conversation comes up is you know, it's typically around money, right? It's around.

00;25;35;07 - 00;25;36;04
Chris
It's a big part of a.

00;25;36;04 - 00;25;59;06
Brenton
Sudden yourself up for for retirement. And I think there's certainly wisdom there of you know be like you said, be a good steward. Do what you can to to save for what you need. But yeah, I think you're right that it's all it's all about mindset in my in my living for my retirement to just do what I want to do or am I in my mission minded.

00;25;59;06 - 00;26;29;25
Brenton
So it's a good way to put it. So what about someone who is retired now and is still fruitful in ministry? Is there is there a responsibility to help pass the torch to the next generation? I don't know if that's something that's really thought about that much, but we feel like, you know, we need to continue doing what we're doing, but not necessarily or maybe just assuming that the next generation's going to pick it up, but there's a lot of wisdom to pass down.

00;26;29;25 - 00;26;31;26
Brenton
So what would you say to someone in that position?

00;26;31;26 - 00;27;20;26
Chris
Yeah, maybe I will talk about this personally and maybe it'll be helpful and then we can talk a little bit more specifically so I'm already at 51 thinking about succession and even our our elders, I've had some discussions with them, just initial ones about like how how do we think ahead? And so that the church would continue to go on and go in the direction that God would have it to go when when it's time for me not to be the lead pastor any longer.

00;27;20;26 - 00;27;41;13
Chris
And that could go in a whole host of different directions. So it's not and we've you know, we've only barely scraped the surface here, but it and somebody might be listening like you're only 51. Why why are you thinking about this and are you going somewhere And there's, you know, like there's no plan for for me to go anywhere and at least no plan that I'm aware of.

00;27;41;15 - 00;28;25;14
Chris
But but I, I personally want to be thinking along those those lines. And, and Lord, willingness is going to come, you know, years down the road. So I hope the Lord gives me many, many more years here. But I do not want to get to the place where, you know, the churches need to come to me and say, hey, we think it's we think you need to move, you need to move on, nor do I want to get to the place where the church isn't is not in a good place and is not ready for that moment or even, you know, ready for whatever could happen.

00;28;25;14 - 00;28;51;24
Chris
And so I just want to say like like personally, I feel a real responsibility to help to to to pass it on to the next generation and to raise up younger men in particular to to to to pastor and to elder the church. And so I just maybe then getting more specific to people who are older than than me.

00;28;51;24 - 00;29;16;02
Chris
And that would be there's not a you know, there's less and less people all the time. But, you know, I do think we should have this mentality and one of the great things about the older generation generations, especially here at Harmony, is that they're faithful, they're steadfast, they're they're by and large, generous. They're they're they're all, you know, ultra committed people.

00;29;16;02 - 00;29;43;25
Chris
And that's fantastic service. You're so well, I'm so, so thankful for that. One weakness is that that they're not necessarily the greatest at actually, you know, raising up and pouring into other people and maybe even at times letting letting go of some some things to let other people have the opportunity. That's not, you know, I don't think that's a huge weakness for us by any stretch of the imagination.

00;29;43;25 - 00;29;50;29
Chris
I think it's a huge weakness in in in you know, our our culture has been really a church that even individual.

00;29;51;06 - 00;29;53;01
Brenton
Churches close their doors because of that.

00;29;53;04 - 00;30;15;28
Chris
Right. Right. And and and older people holding on to the you know, the influence power whether they're in a good way or a bad way and not and young people just especially today, they're not going to they're not going to you know, deal with that well, that they want to be involved. They want to have the seat at the table.

00;30;15;28 - 00;30;42;26
Chris
And there's a there's a time and place for them to have a seat at the table. It's not like we just give it their right. They they need to be developed. But but we have a responsibility. And I think I would just encourage the people who are in retirement age or even in retirement that they really should do all they can to, like you said, pass the torch and not.

00;30;43;02 - 00;31;11;24
Chris
And that doesn't mean just like handing it off, like, hey, there you go, we're out of here. It's like, how do we how do we bring them along? How do we do ministry together and and invite them in? And and I remember to go back to literally the first couple of months that I was here. I we actually there was the executive team elders at that time.

00;31;11;24 - 00;31;40;15
Chris
And I went to a conference at John Piper Church in Minneapolis. And it's time to he's getting a lot today. And and we sat at a dinner and and I ask the elders and all of them were old We're older than than me. And some of them, you know, somewhat significantly. And I just I asked them, you know, what are your what's your hope for the future of the church?

00;31;40;15 - 00;32;08;00
Chris
And and and one of them who would have been one of the the older ones at that time, he said, what I want to see is I want to see younger men serving on on this team and sort of serving as elders and raised up. And by God's grace now, you know, 12 plus years later, that's actually that's actually the case.

00;32;08;03 - 00;32;32;07
Chris
And we still, you know, we still need to do that more and more. And by the way, we we still need old we desperately need older people. And so I want to I want to give a counterbalance here because and it's kind of interesting, like pope politically in our country, it seems like the old people are just really, really holding on and not letting go.

00;32;32;07 - 00;33;06;11
Chris
And yet at the same time, we have a high value. We don't really generally have a high value of of on age, Right. It's the young, young youth that's valued. And of course, the Bible values, you know, the gray haired, the the the wisdom that comes with being older. So we we desperately need the older generations and especially in leadership, because they have the wisdom and the experience that the younger people do not have.

00;33;06;11 - 00;33;32;24
Chris
And so we need we need we need both. And here it's not one or the other. And I actually think we have a really good mix here at Harmony. And I love that our older people in our older leaders have this attitude is we want to bring younger people along. We want to share leadership. And the young people are pretty respectful of of the the the older people and the older leaders in our church.

00;33;33;01 - 00;33;33;07
Chris
Yeah.

00;33;33;09 - 00;34;00;11
Brenton
So I agree. I think that that is fostered well and harmony and I think that it it is probably going to be you know a mind a mindset change for for some people to think that way because you know they've been probably been doers their whole life and so now kind of taken I don't know exactly what that looks like but kind of taking a step back and okay, how do I come alongside you and prepare you for it?

00;34;00;11 - 00;34;26;15
Brenton
I think yeah, I think that it's vital to to the next generation. But also I think that there's, you know, every generation looks at the one coming up and says this way, why are you this way? And I think that some of that is, you know, I think that we need to trust that God is going to be faithful in the next generation for his church.

00;34;26;15 - 00;34;34;27
Brenton
And even if we don't understand why, why millennials are the way they are or whatever, I think that we need to trust that the God's faithful.

00;34;34;27 - 00;34;36;19
Chris
Sister, you're a millennial, aren't you?

00;34;36;25 - 00;34;40;20
Brenton
I am, yeah. I'm more confused by the genesis.

00;34;40;22 - 00;35;09;25
Chris
Yeah, I think that's a really good note there. I think every, you know, generation, it looks down on the one that's preceding it and vice versa. Generally speaking. But especially you hear older people complaining about younger people. And I just like, yes, we all have our issues, but I tell you, the younger generation and the generations younger, there's there's there's a lot there are a lot of really, really good things.

00;35;09;25 - 00;35;26;24
Chris
And so, yeah, there's some things that, you know, we need to we need to work on and we need to address. But we also have a lot of things that can, can really, really make a difference in the kingdom and are making a difference in the kingdom.

00;35;26;26 - 00;35;56;10
Brenton
Yeah. Good. So one last one. You said Paul's not just after conversions. He wanted to see people become fully devoted followers of Jesus. And I think it's it's relatively common for Christians to believe that conversion is the end of evangelism. But that's clearly not what Paul thought. So why is it crucial to understand that evangelism isn't the end of the church's responsibility to unbelievers?

00;35;56;13 - 00;36;26;10
Chris
How are we really simple here or quick? The Great Commission Matthew 28 Jesus says, Go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them and teaching them everything I have commanded you. And so it's, we really can equate, I think, in many ways baptism to evangelism. But then Jesus says, baptizing and teaching them everything I've commanded you. And so it's it's it's not the end.

00;36;26;10 - 00;37;02;13
Chris
It's not the finish line. When someone places their faith in Christ, it's really the beginning line. And I think that that's a big error that that church in the last 50 years has has really made is like we've been so focused on conversions that we've missed that like think that's it okay? And nobody would actually say that. But that's kind of how we so emphasize that that that then we don't recognize that, you know that really is where it gets started and and the Christian life begins.

00;37;02;13 - 00;37;13;21
Chris
And now we're in this process of becoming fully devoted followers of Christ. We're becoming fully mature in Christ. We're growing in our sanctification.

00;37;13;24 - 00;37;20;18
Brenton
So what would you say happens when someone comes to the Lord and then isn't disciple?

00;37;20;20 - 00;38;05;17
Chris
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see maybe the response to this, but I think sometimes what happens is that the person actually reveals that they weren't actually a believer in the first place, that that that their profession of faith was, was simply a meant or sent or whatever. And and that when there isn't further discipleship, then some of the maybe misunderstandings that they had or maybe to use a kind of Jesus analogy of the parable, the sower they they show that they're rocky soil or thorny soil and they don't actually end up bearing bearing fruit.

00;38;05;19 - 00;38;39;15
Chris
That's kind of worst case scenario. The best case scenario is that they remain immature and they they they bear little fruit and they eat that, which has ramifications for them, for their relationships. And you get immaturity. And if if we could talk about this way, if that's kind of the ethos of a church is you get a bunch of immature believers, you got a real mess on your hands.

00;38;39;17 - 00;39;05;22
Chris
And now every church that is actually growing and is seeing people come to grace is going to have immature believers. So let's be really clear. We we actually want immature believers, right? And, you know, it's going to be messy. It's going to be messy there. But if you have a a majority or even a large number of immature people, you're going to have them.

00;39;05;22 - 00;39;31;08
Chris
You're going to have a mess. And and so it's it's absolutely crucial and really to it to the mission, because people who are not disciple don't make disciples. And so you're not going to you're not going to be able to accomplish your mission if you're not actually discipling people. And people are growing in their understanding and application of the gospel.

00;39;31;13 - 00;40;03;22
Brenton
Yeah, Well, and I, I think that that's just something that we need to keep in mind as as we try to fulfill that, that call to evangelize is that, you know, the next step to that is getting a church like we're not just looking for a profession, we want this person to be disciple. And as I, you know, read verse 14, it's really interesting to me that, you know, Paul, after everything that he's he's said in this letter, he said, You guys already know this.

00;40;03;25 - 00;40;25;24
Brenton
I already taught you this. Yeah. And then he proceeds to write this huge treatise on the gospel just by way of reminder. And so, like, the way that, you know, he treated his congregations are is just crazy. And I think that we need to take it that seriously too, though, that the church is vital to believers.

00;40;26;01 - 00;40;51;27
Chris
Yeah. And you know, there there's the old Sunday school song that I think is important for us at Harmony to keep in mind. And these days is deep and wide to remember that you said that the devotions, do you want to do it together right now? Sure, but I we want to go wide because we want to reach people with the gospel and we've been called to take the gospel to all nations.

00;40;52;00 - 00;41;23;21
Chris
But we have to remember that as we go wide, that we need to to also go deep and we need to to make sure that we are growing in our understanding of the gospel. And we're growing in our relationship with Christ. And I actually believe that if we it if we take care of the the deep, the wide will really come as a as kind of a result of that, although we've got to keep that focus in mind.

00;41;23;24 - 00;41;24;25
Chris
So.

00;41;24;27 - 00;41;37;15
Brenton
I mean, it kind of comes back to the beginning of this. The worship leads to witness the more the deeper we are in our in our understanding of God and our love for God, the more our worship is going to lead. Yeah, it get wider. So.

00;41;37;17 - 00;41;57;25
Chris
Hey, let me know. We're getting too close here. Let me just give a little bit of a preview of next Sunday, the next couple of Sundays, and just what I encourage everybody. Romans 14, We're going back and it's kind of out of order here a little bit, but these are going to be some really, really important messages for us.

00;41;57;25 - 00;42;16;14
Chris
And so I hope everybody will be reading. ROMANS 14 and preparation and then will come ready to dive in. I think it's going to be important and then follow up with us on the podcast. So I really believe that these next couple of podcasts that we do are probably going to be some of the most important that we've done.

00;42;16;16 - 00;42;24;06
Brenton
All right, Well, you heard it here. Yeah. Appreciate your message and thanks for hanging out today. We'll talk to you guys next week.