Episode 42: God’s Got a Plan, Part 1

00;00;02;16 - 00;00;30;11
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further. I'm Brenton Graham. This last Sunday, Clay Baker and Matt Mitchell preached through the first half of Romans 11, and they're both here today to continue discussing it.

00;00;30;13 - 00;00;31;21
Brenton
So welcome, guys. How's it.

00;00;31;21 - 00;00;33;08
Matt
Going? Hello.

00;00;33;10 - 00;00;35;02
Clay
It's going great. Thanks for having us.

00;00;35;04 - 00;01;06;10
Brenton
Wonderful. All right. So I'm going to start with a question that we got from someone in our body and we'll see where this goes. So he says, we believe that there is no salvation apart from Jesus. What does that mean for those who died before Christ? Both the Jew and the Gentile, the Gospel, nor any of the prophetic books did not exist at the time of Noah.

00;01;06;12 - 00;01;17;00
Brenton
So how can, for example, Noah be saved or Cain for that matter, if he had repented and quote? What do you guys think?

00;01;17;02 - 00;01;50;04
Clay
Well, I mentioned Hebrews Chapter 11 on Sunday, and I think this is really on point for that question. Hebrews Chapter 11 is commonly referred to as the Hall of Faith, and the author of Hebrews cites example after example of Old Testament hero names we're familiar with, like Abel and Abraham and Noah even and others. And they're all commended for their faith and they're saved by their faith.

00;01;50;11 - 00;02;29;21
Clay
I mean, it makes it pretty clear that they're saved by faith. And so while, you know, they may not have had the fullest revelation that we have post Christ, they still are saved by the grace of God through faith and his promises. And I'll I'll even read them a little bit here out of chapter 11. This is verse 13 says, These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

00;02;29;24 - 00;02;51;08
Clay
And so they they believed God's promises of salvation for those who were trusting in him, they were trusting that he would deliver them of their sins. And he, of course, did that. And he accomplished that through the death, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That for them was yet to come. But that's what they were trusting in.

00;02;51;08 - 00;03;19;28
Clay
And even back in Hebrews just a little bit before that, but a little bit before what I read in chapter ten and verse 12, it says, But when Christ had offered for a for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet for by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

00;03;20;01 - 00;03;41;19
Clay
And so it's the it's the one atoning sacrifice of Christ that is sufficient for the forgiveness of sins. And it's its past sins. It's the Old Testament sins, but it's also present sins. Our sins and future sins. It's all all atoned for by one sacrifice. And it's through faith that we receive that blessed salvation.

00;03;41;22 - 00;04;03;10
Matt
Yeah, I think that's great, Clay. I totally agree. And something I read by R.C. Sproul earlier today, he has made the comment We look back to Christ, but those that came before Christ who believe by faith they were looking forward to Christ. So they look forward, we look back. I guess that should be a simple way I would summarize it based on the passage you just shared.

00;04;03;12 - 00;04;38;00
Matt
Jesus mentions in John eight. He says, Your father Abraham, rejoiced that he would see my day, as Jesus says about himself. He saw it and was glad, and he doesn't give more information on what he saw and was glad about. But God was giving him revelation about what was to come and I think the last comment I would make too, is I hadn't thought about this until Bret asked the question here, but I think it's important to know, too, when God's revealing himself to people in the Old Testament, it's not like God.

00;04;38;00 - 00;05;02;23
Matt
The Father is in isolation, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit are present because our God is one God three in person. And so it may not that revelation, that full revelation of the Godhead is triune may not be realized by these people that the Lord is revealing himself to. But that's kind of the mystery that the New Testament talks about, this mystery that was hidden now is revealed.

00;05;02;25 - 00;05;31;18
Matt
It's like, Oh, the Father, God is a father and he has a son, and he's always existed with the father, and he has given him in these last days for his people. And this is what everything was leading to. And so it's the the blinders have been lifted to say to understand what this looks like. And so just not not trying to think of God in isolation from the son in the spirit, because our God is one and he always has been.

00;05;31;21 - 00;05;59;10
Brenton
Yeah, that's that's helpful, I think, to bring the Trinity into that because, you know, we believe in a very, you know, Trinitarian gospel that that all of the all the members of the Godhead are and are, you know, crucial and involved in, you know, their salvation. Yeah. And, and that is not plan B, it's not like that. The Old Testament was plan A and, and now we have a plan B of Jesus.

00;05;59;13 - 00;06;26;22
Brenton
Yeah. This was, you know, this was prophesied back in Genesis three. Yeah. And the plan had never changed. And so the people that, you know, Noah and all the people mentioned in, in Hebrews 11 now that they're the only ones, but there's nothing by which they could have been saved had had Jesus not come later and finish that work.

00;06;26;25 - 00;06;45;02
Clay
That's right. And Hebrews ten four says it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Yeah, so I think you're right on point there. Breton The Old Testament lore it's not as though that was plan A and Christ sacrifice his plan B, it's, it's that that was always pointing to the Plan of Christ.

00;06;45;02 - 00;06;46;01
Clay
Sacrifice.

00;06;46;04 - 00;07;14;07
Brenton
Yeah. Good. Okay, so I have a couple of questions here. Paul brings up the story of Elijah here in Romans 11, and he quotes Elijah in verse three where he says, Lord, they have killed your prophets and they have demolished your altars. And I alone and left and they seek my life. And this is a reference from from First Kings 1910.

00;07;14;10 - 00;07;35;14
Brenton
Did did any either of you guys look into the story at all as you were preparing? And if so, can you kind of give us like who who is he talking about here? Who's Elijah talking about? And do you have kind of a brief history you could give on on what's happening?

00;07;35;16 - 00;08;01;19
Clay
Well, I can keep it very brief. So in Elijah time, the king was Ahab. His wife was Jezebel, and they were just really wicked. And they were leading the Jewish people into idolatry. So they were they were leading them away from the true God, which was so common for the kings of Israel in those days. But Ahab and Jezebel, they were some of the worst.

00;08;01;21 - 00;08;29;01
Clay
And so Elijah was standing firm for the truth. And just a little bit before the part that Paul references, Elijah had famously defeated the Prophets on bail on on Mount Carmel. And it's a great story there of how the prophets of Babel, the false God that Ahab was leading everyone to worship. They were not able to demonstrate the the truth of their God.

00;08;29;01 - 00;09;02;01
Clay
The fire, you know, did not come down from heaven like they were trying to call bail to do. But Elijah, even after dousing his offering with water. You know, God, the true God rained fire down from heaven and anyway, just demonstrated the truth of the one true God. And so Elijah was victorious then. But then, in a very short time later, as we read it in Scripture, he's on the run because Jezebel is mad at him and is now persecuting him.

00;09;02;02 - 00;09;27;16
Clay
And I'm going to come after him and kill him. And so he flees and he goes to Mt. Horeb, which is another name for Mt. Sinai, and it's there that he's seems to be in despair and thinking he's the last faithful one left to the Lord. And the Lord, you know, kind of humbles them and reminds them that, no, there's 7000 he's kept 7000 for himself who have not bowed the need to bail.

00;09;27;18 - 00;09;34;07
Clay
And so, yeah, that's that's the story in a nutshell. Matt, if I if I left out some critical details, please feel free to add.

00;09;34;09 - 00;09;44;14
Brenton
Yeah, it's good. Matt. Matt, I'm just going to ask you, why do you think Paul brought that up? Why do you think that he references the story of Elijah here in Romans 11?

00;09;44;16 - 00;10;13;20
Matt
Yeah, great question. So Elijah is using it as an example of someone who's discouraged over what his fellow kinsmen have done. They've abandoned the living God for idols and he feels like he's isolated, He's alone. I'm the only one that's left God. Remind him that's not true. There's a remnant chosen by grace. And then Paul links this to his current station and where he's at in context.

00;10;13;20 - 00;10;40;17
Matt
Romans 911 Paul's grieved over his fellow kinsmen who don't believe the Jews, right? They've rejected Christ. He is their messiah. He is the savior. They don't believe that. So he's grieved over that. But he knows he's not alone. And he's saying, okay, I'm not the only one like Elijah there got as a remnant even today. And he says that in the text he links it and chapter 11, verse five, he says so too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

00;10;40;20 - 00;11;01;25
Matt
So I think it be fair to say he sees himself similar to an Elijah situation in A and his day and age and right to the Romans that he's grieved and heart torn over what's taking place. But he has he has hope to guess God is he still is a remnant. And I made reference to this in my sermon.

00;11;01;25 - 00;11;23;28
Matt
But I just think it's funny that in First Kings 19, it's a 7000 person remnant. So it's not a it's not gigantic, but it's not small. You know, the remnant. It's not just this handful, you know, a couple dozen people. I've got a remnant, 7000 that are faithful. So praise God for the remnant.

00;11;24;00 - 00;11;48;21
Brenton
Yeah, Yeah, that's, that's helpful, I think. But you're right. That is why he's bringing up. I think Paul does feel alone in that. And you know, the story of of Elijah in First Kings is really a story of apostasy of his people. His people have have abandoned what they once confessed. And and Clay and I, we're talking a little bit before this.

00;11;48;21 - 00;12;14;01
Brenton
And I don't think that that necessarily parallels what what's happening with the with the Jewish people in Paul's day. But at the same time, I think there's something that we we could learn today from the way Elijah responds to that. So do you guys have any thoughts on like what apostasy looks like in the church today? What do you does it look different than it did in the in in the Bible?

00;12;14;01 - 00;12;18;17
Brenton
What does it look like today for us?

00;12;18;19 - 00;12;39;00
Matt
I'll hop in on this real quick. I'm thinking of a couple of things, Brentin. Sort of apostasy is, you know, I'm renouncing my faith. I don't believe anymore. I'm walking away. If that's kind of a that's like my street definition of it right here in the vernacular. But I think that so in our day and age, there's a big word called deconstruction.

00;12;39;02 - 00;13;06;11
Matt
It's where people are. I'm unpacking, I'm tearing apart, I'm deconstructing my Christian faith. And I think there's aspects of this where we can deconstruct things that aren't biblical and that aren't good, and that it's like, Well, that's not even what I'm saying we believe in. Anyways, I need to toss that out. I need to deconstruct that. But in that kind of the mainstream, it's being used as a way to say, I don't believe anymore.

00;13;06;11 - 00;13;21;25
Matt
I'm done. I'm out of here. So that's a real danger. And we could talk. We could have a whole podcast just about that. And how do you lean into that and shepherd through deconstruction in our day?

00;13;21;29 - 00;13;47;16
Brenton
Well, in just in just a note on deconstruction, I think that you're right. But it's also like a halfway it's not a full renunciation of God. Like most most people that are deconstructing that I've seen at least have have still remained theist in some way. But they've they've gotten rid of the religion. They've gotten rid of the the part that they felt they felt bound to.

00;13;47;19 - 00;13;53;13
Brenton
And so it's kind of like this half way thing if I'm not an atheist, but I'm not I'm not a Christian anymore.

00;13;53;19 - 00;14;17;17
Matt
Right. And that's why I said we could do a we could do a whole podcast just on that, because I've also seen that too, that the I shouldn't say it always leads to I completely renounce everything, but I have seen that, but I've also seen the half way and also seen, yeah, the healthier version of Hey, I thought about this a little bit harder and I was believing something that wasn't even scriptural in the Bible from my past history or church heard or whatever.

00;14;17;19 - 00;14;43;15
Matt
Yeah. So there's it's an array of different forms there. But the second part, as I say, so let's just say apostasy is I renounce it altogether. I think what we see in the Bible, especially with the Jews, that is really important to note, is that the Jews didn't reject God as much as they brought in other gods with Yahweh.

00;14;43;21 - 00;15;09;02
Matt
Hmm. So? So, no, you'll see. I mean, you'll see a really bad kings like Ahab is a terrible king. And you see these other kings from Israel that basically were trying to get got out of the temple and just worship other idols only. But I think you see this theme that God's people had the high places still like these other places of worship in addition to the temple, are they brought idols into the temple to worship alongside with Yahweh?

00;15;09;05 - 00;15;33;16
Matt
And I think that has more a lot of relevance to our just Christian life in general And what the church kind of struggles and goes through is there's these other things that compete for the Lord in our life and we bring in and then maybe they can start off as a good thing. I don't think worship starts off as a good thing, but you can kind of see where I'm going with this.

00;15;33;16 - 00;15;58;24
Matt
There's something else that it's not bad. It's not idol worship, but it can become the superior thing and it kind of shows got out of first place. And so I would just say those are a few comments I have about how I have seen God's people through the Old Testament and how it is relevant for us today is isn't just like, Oh yeah, I don't believe in God, but it's I believe in God, But I've brought in these other things that, oh, they're actually taking God's place.

00;15;58;26 - 00;15;59;25
Matt
Well, slowly but surely.

00;15;59;26 - 00;16;33;14
Clay
That's similar to what I was thinking about Matt and Brendan's question. I don't have a lot of firsthand experience with somebody, a pastor sizing in, you know, the truest or most technical sense of that word where they're, you know, expressly outright renouncing their faith and walking away in a very visible way there. But what I see a lot of is people that were at one time active part of the church, maybe it was the church I was I grew up in, which was different from Harmony or, you know, even more recently maybe it's in my time here at Harmony.

00;16;33;16 - 00;17;00;26
Clay
But people that were really, you know, they seemed to be to use a common expression on fire for the Lord. And, you know, just enriched by their faith and grown and their faith and and service. And and then before too long, you just you don't see much of them anymore. And and they just kind of drift away. And and you might ask them what's going on, you know, and play with them to come back.

00;17;00;26 - 00;17;17;14
Clay
But and there could be a whole number of different reasons. But kind of like what you were saying, Matt, it's not that they necessarily renounced God or their their faith in the Lord, but it it just doesn't seem to be as important to them anymore. And like I said, there could be a number of reasons, But I'm in those situations.

00;17;17;14 - 00;17;38;22
Clay
I'm always reminded of that word and revelation. This is in chapter two and the letter to the church, an emphasis that I don't want to repeat this out of context here. I'm not saying this is what this means, but this is the word that comes to mind when I think of people that have kind of drifted away from the church.

00;17;38;24 - 00;17;56;06
Clay
But the Lord, the Lord says of the church in Ephesus, I have this against you that you have abandoned the love you had at first. And I think I think of that as a people that seem to Professor Faith and profess to love and manifest a love for the Lord and now it's just not part of their life anymore.

00;17;56;06 - 00;17;59;08
Clay
Not in a visible way, at least.

00;17;59;10 - 00;18;12;08
Brenton
So based off of, you know, this first King story in Elijah, what should our should our response be to those people?

00;18;12;11 - 00;18;51;20
Matt
I think I think we see an example in Elijah and Paul from our texts that first they're grieving like it's not like they're not shaking a finger at them. They're not like being pious, holier than thou, you know, I can't believe they did this. You know, they should have known better. They're grieved over it. And I think anybody who knows someone who's close to them, family member or close friend who has started to depart from the faith or has completely the you know, the hard knocks of that is this just stinks.

00;18;51;20 - 00;19;01;20
Matt
And I'm complaining to God. I'm just pleading with him like, why? And I think that's where we've got to start for sure.

00;19;01;23 - 00;19;21;05
Clay
Yeah, that I would just would commend the elders at Harmony. If you're a member of our church and and the elders perceive that you're starting to kind of wander away or drift or they just don't know. I think our elders do a pretty good job of pursuing people. And it is it is out of a heart of love.

00;19;21;05 - 00;19;43;13
Clay
And it's not condemnation, judgment, shame, anything like that. It's it's it's like, man, we love you. We care for you. We know that what will be best for you is if you remain in the body of Christ so that we can all be edifying each other, you know, through the Spirit together as we walk with the Lord or attempt to walk with the Lord and His spirit.

00;19;43;15 - 00;19;53;23
Clay
And so, yeah, we, we regularly have conversations with people and pursue them and, and try to and try to bring them back down, back.

00;19;53;25 - 00;20;22;22
Brenton
And yeah, that's, that's a really interesting point that, you know, God has set up so many practical guardrails for us to avoid going down that road. And I mean, church membership, the body, church discipline, all of these things are indispensable to to that like there are means that keep us within the body. And so yeah, that's a that's a good point and something to be taken seriously.

00;20;22;25 - 00;20;44;18
Matt
Yeah. And one more thing I would just say it, this is kind of towards the end of our passage and that we preached this last week, your politics about if I have the power to bring him back in, you know, and we talk about the Jews in that context, but going along with what you guys just said about elders and membership and we're going to come after you because we love you.

00;20;44;20 - 00;21;10;29
Matt
Yes. And yes. And sometimes people avoid all that and they go for it and they become a prodigal and they live in the world. And I think all of us can relate to that to an extent. But some people it was like I blew past all the guardrails because I wanted what I wanted. But then it proved to not be satisfying and I came to my senses going the prodigal son and I ran home and I realized that really wasn't what, what, what I thought it would be.

00;21;11;06 - 00;21;28;21
Matt
And I have everything I need. My father's house. And that's the beauty of the church. The local church, too, is people come back and they're not met with shame or I told you so. But hey, I'm so glad you're here. We love you. Always have. And yeah, praise God for Grace. Yeah.

00;21;28;24 - 00;21;58;07
Brenton
Great. Okay, I got one last question. You guys both talked about the importance of humility when it comes to our salvation. Verse 20 says, So do not become proud, but fear. Do you see this as as being a problem in the church today? This kind of pride over over us being the ones that are saved?

00;21;58;09 - 00;22;01;29
Matt
Yes.

00;22;02;01 - 00;22;05;21
Brenton
If so, how?

00;22;05;23 - 00;22;14;15
Matt
I talked about this two sermons ago, but I've had these points in my life that I can really clearly point to.

00;22;14;17 - 00;22;15;20
Brenton
Where.

00;22;15;22 - 00;22;37;14
Matt
I have made my salvation and my standing with God about what I have done in my zeal for him and how hard core I'm going after. God. And that always leads to problems, always makes me like a Pharisee. If you read about in the Gospels, there's the Pharisees that are always out of step with what Jesus is actually trying to get across because they're self-righteous and it's about them, what I've accomplished.

00;22;37;17 - 00;22;55;26
Matt
And, you know, I just. Luke 18, I got that story about the Pharisee and he's bragging about what he's doing in the temple with God, as in his prayer. Thank you. I thank you that I do this, that and the other. And I'm not like this tax collector. The tax collectors far off beat his chest, as you know, Lord, forgive me, I'm a sinner.

00;22;55;29 - 00;23;15;09
Matt
And Jesus says he walked to a justified and he says, the one who was humble and feared and wasn't proud and that's that's something I the Lord, has to keep teaching me that over and over again, because it's just so easy to think I've done something for him. And it's like, Now this is all grace and it always will be.

00;23;15;11 - 00;23;17;19
Matt
So that's yeah, that's fresh.

00;23;17;26 - 00;23;44;10
Clay
Yeah, that resonates with me too. Matt And, you know, I think something that I have a tendency to do and I'm sure some of my brothers and sisters do as well, is, is to only be thinking about or looking to the encouraging truths of the gospel. And they're super encouraging. Of course, they're the most encouraging thing. But here we're confronted with a command to not become proud but fear.

00;23;44;13 - 00;24;13;06
Clay
And so we have to wrestle with what that word fear means. And in the commentaries I was reading, they were encouraging me not to be too quick to just translate That word in my mind is like reverence, mere reverence or mere kind of worship. Again, not to not to caution me, not to put too positive a spin on it, but to really sit with the gravity of the word fear.

00;24;13;09 - 00;24;38;09
Clay
And and that fits with the context of the passage, or to note both the kindness and the severity of God. And I think that is really humbling. Not we're not supposed to necessarily fear that we could lose our salvation. And I addressed that at some length in the sermon. But be humbled that like you said, man, I didn't bring anything to the table to merit my salvation.

00;24;38;11 - 00;25;08;17
Clay
And it's it's only by the grace of God that I'm saved. And it's and it's by his grace that I'm kept in him. And and the alternative could have been, but for God's grace, the alternative would have been very, very different and absolutely something to be dread dreading over. And so I think this is a good word. It's a good word for me, and I'm sure it's a good word for us in the church, too, that it's yeah, we're encouraged by the gospel, but it's not all warm and fuzzy.

00;25;08;17 - 00;25;16;24
Clay
Sometimes we need to sit with the fear of the gospel, too, and the fear of God's grace and how our lives could have been. Destinies could have been so different. But for his.

00;25;16;24 - 00;25;17;05
Matt
Grace.

00;25;17;12 - 00;25;46;22
Brenton
You know. Yeah, that's I think that's helpful to to, you know, kind of put fear into its rightful place there, that there's nothing that holds us other than the grace of God. So, yeah, it's a good warning for us and I think for the church that, you know, we we've done nothing. We've done nothing more than people that aren't saved.

00;25;46;23 - 00;26;09;11
Brenton
We're just saved by grace. So great. I think we're going to end this one here a little shorter than normal. So enjoy that. But I appreciate you guys coming in. Yeah, and thanks for preaching. I think we're going to be back next week with the second half of Romans 11. So looking forward to it.

00;26;09;13 - 00;26;11;26
Clay
Israel and the end times as we go into.

00;26;11;26 - 00;26;13;02
Matt
These days, Brian.

00;26;13;07 - 00;26;14;27
Brenton
To see how we get next week.