Episode 40: God’s Sovereignty & Man’s Responsibility, Part 4

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Brenton
This is further a weekly.

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Chris
Show for the people of.

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Brenton
Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further. I'm Britton Graham and I'm here again with Chris Carr. How's it going?

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Chris
It's going good. We're here on Halloween morning recording this. A little unusual, but Happy Halloween, everybody.

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Brenton
Yeah, absolutely. This is a little different schedule. You can tell my voice is a little lower here in the morning, so.

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Chris
Well, it's. It's also like 28 degrees and. Yeah.

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Brenton
So it's not helping. Yeah. Not looking forward to this weather. So, yeah, we're going through kind of the hardest part of Romans nine. We are kind of on the other side of it. What do you what do you think? How's it gone?

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Chris
I think at least from what I'm hearing, it's gone pretty well. I've been pretty pleased with how things have come together.

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Brenton
And how.

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Chris
People have responded. I'm so really thankful that we have a church body that's willing to wrestle with the word and to dive into these difficult things and maybe to have our thinking a challenge. And so I've been, again, really grateful for all the encouragement and the prayers. And I think it's been good for for us to wrestle with it.

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Chris
And we're still wrestling with it as we're going to do so here today.

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Brenton
Yeah, Yeah, I agree. I think the response I've heard so far has been even people that, you know, have struggled with these in the past, these issues, they're willing to to wrestle with it. They're willing to work through it and admit that, you know, scripture saying what it's saying. And so, yeah, on the other side of it now, we just need to figure out how to how to answer some of these questions.

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Brenton
And we have quite a few today.

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Chris
Right. So, well, and I just want to say, we've still got plenty to talk about here. Going into chapter ten. And I think that what we're going to talk about in the weeks ahead will be helpful with what we just saw walk through.

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Brenton
Yeah. Good. Okay, So let's start out with, you know, it's something not super easy. So in verse 22, Paul says Vessels of Wrath prepared for destruction on Sunday. You made a distinction between the terms prepared and created. And you were saying that that there's a difference between God creating us for destruction and preparing us for destruction.

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Brenton
So can you elaborate on the difference between the two and why it's significant?

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Chris
Sure. So this was my effort.

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Brenton
To.

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Chris
Clarify and to simplify something that is or at least theologians can make a pretty complex. And and so I'm going to throw out a couple of terms here just to give everybody an idea of how complex this can be. I'm not one for using theological terms, but there are two positions called super lap serialism and Inferno. Lap serialism, which I have a hard time even saying those words.

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Chris
But basically what it comes down to is does does God have mercy on some and hardened and others before he creates the world and allows the fall to take place? Or does God decree to save some and not others after he creates the world and then allows the fall to take place? And I should point out here that this is really a logical order in the way that we think about it logically happening.

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Chris
And so the the super lap serialism, supra, means above in the lap, some means fall. So is before the fall and then in froze below or after the fall and. And so just to get to it again and I'm already getting in over our heads here I think but the question is really does God create people in order to destroy them?

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Chris
And and so the position that I took is the inferno lap arianism position that God does not create people to destroy them, but rather that he creates the world ordains that a fall will take place and then he chooses to save some and not others, all of which are, you know, deserve destruction. And he decides to show mercy to some rather than he creates people, some that are going to be saved and some that he's going to destroy.

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Chris
And that's his purpose in creating people. Now, I've laid out the positions there. Let me explain to you why I took the position a little bit more, why I took the position that I that I did. And I also want to say this, Everybody, I've been careful to be pretty reserved in how forceful I am or I have been with the positions that I have taken and I've done that honor and respect those good brothers or sisters who might disagree with me on some of these things.

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Chris
And obviously, I need to teach God's Word the way that I believe it should be taught and to say what what I believe it really says. But I've I've tried to, you know, do so in a in a in a gentle way. On this point, though, I probably would be stronger than on anything else that I've been over the last three weeks.

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Chris
And for this reason, first of all, the word prepared in our text just doesn't mean. It means to bring to an end. So it's really not the talking about the beginning is talking about the end. So he's he's preparing them for his destruction and preparing them for what the end is is going to be. And then I think the scripture tells us again, this is just one or two God created people good.

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Chris
And the reason that people are sinners is because they that's the past that they chose and they, first of all, choose their path to destruction. And then God after that takes place, He prepares them for the path that they have taken. And then the final reason and really the key one is what we see in our text from last week.

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Chris
Romans 914 and 15. Again, just a reminder, I think it's good for us to look at this. What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means. He says to Moses, I'll have mercy on him. I have mercy and I'll have compassion on whom I have compassion. So God's decision to save has to follow his decision to permit the fall, Or how else would it truly be?

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Chris
Mercy If his decision to save comes before anybody falls, then it's not really mercy. Mercy is again his kindness and giving, giving us or not giving us what we deserve. And so, again, there are people who disagree with this. But I think the position when we talk about prepared rather than created is much more faithfully faithful, biblically. And I think it also is more faithful to what we see about God's character.

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Brenton
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's helpful. It's interesting that we had talked about this a little bit yesterday, and so I did some reading on it and I think I had heard about the debate before. I kind of knew what the terms meant, but I think I had a misunderstanding of what the actual controversy was. And so reading through it last night, it it's it's interesting.

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Brenton
But I think one one thing to keep in mind and I think you knew explained it, but these are all kind of logical from our side. How do we make sense of God's decree and how he did it? And so we're not saying that he like in time after the fall, after Adam and Eve actually fell, then he decided he was going to do these things.

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Brenton
This was all pre creation. How, you know, what was the logical order in his decree. And so yeah.

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Chris
That's a great clarification. Again, it's hard in these conversations to include all of the different aspects that go into it, but I hope everybody you just heard what my brain is saying is like, God is eternal. He sits outside of time, so he's not responding in, you know, to what we do. You know, in other words, the decisions that he make don't rely upon, you know, the decisions that that we make.

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Chris
And so, again, we're getting into the weeds here and.

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Brenton
Well, that's a good point, that God is not reactionary to to us. Like he you're right. He sits outside at a time and the the either position would still agree that God did ordained the fall in some way. And so we need to still be okay with with that decision right now.

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Chris
It's good.

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Brenton
But yeah, no, it's an interesting conversation.

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Chris
Yeah. Let me just say wrap this up by saying this. From a practical standpoint, what I think is most important for us to grab out of this is what I was trying to say, because this is what I can hear people saying is like, Are you saying that God created people simply to destroy them? And I just don't I don't believe that that is true.

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Chris
I don't believe that that which scripture is teaching. Again, he does prepare people for destruction. And so when people rebel against him and they harden their hearts, he's going to use their hard hearts to show his his wrath and his power. And that's in our passage this week. And that's a hard, you know, reality. But that's what the scripture teaches.

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Chris
But that doesn't mean that God decides or decided, you know, he was going to create people just to send them to hell.

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Brenton
Yeah, yeah. And I that is, we just keep continuing to talk about this.

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Chris
I think it matters, though. It really does.

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Brenton
And I think that the distinction there is that, you know, God doesn't send people to hell because of his decree. He sends people to hell because of their sin. And it's a it's a very important distinction when we think about what what the God what God's decree was. And I think we're going to see this a little later, I'll I'll bring up another passage that I think will illustrate this better.

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Brenton
But yeah, I think it's important to realize that this is this is not the people aren't being punished, but punished because of what God has decreed. They're being punished for their sin. So.

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Chris
Yes.

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Brenton
Okay. Onto the next one. Objection that you know, our position on on Romans nine and this whole idea of God's decree gets is is the response from second Peter three and verse nine says the Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but his patience towards you not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

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Brenton
And so how do we square Romans nine with with second Peter three nine here that that God doesn't wish any to perish. But but he wants all to reach repentance.

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Chris
Yeah, this is a great question again, and a very, very common verse for for people to bring up in this discussion. But I'm going to give kind of two answers to the question. But the first would be that we've got to read Second, Peter three nine in context and this is a verse is like a guess and people do this a lot with a lot of different verses.

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Chris
You know, we just pull it out and just quote it and, and ask this question, but without really understanding the context in which it's written. And so we've got to go back, first of all, to the beginning of chapter three, where Paul says this is now the second letter that I'm writing to you, beloved. So this is second, Peter And if we go back to the first Peter and we see how he opens that letter, it's really important.

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Chris
He says, Peter and Apostle of Jesus Christ to those who are elect exiles of the dispersion. And he lists a number of different places and he says they're like exiles according to foreknowledge. There's that word again of God, the father. And so in second, Peter three nine, the people that he is talking to are are believers. And he's talking to believers about an issue in in their day where people were scoffing that the Lord hadn't returned yet.

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Chris
And so he literally verse four, he says, and they will say, where is the promise of his coming? And then verse five, Peter says, four They deliberately overlooked, look, this fact that the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the Word of God and by means of these, a world that then existed as was to lose with water and perished.

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Chris
But by the same word, the heavens and the earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the judgment day of judgment and the destruction of the ungodly. There's that word destruction again. But then verse eight. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is a thousand years, and a thousand years is one day.

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Chris
And so, you know, he's answering this objection. The Lord hasn't come back. And you say, No, God works on a different timetable than we do. And then so here's verse nine The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise, as some count slowness. So. So why is why is it taken so long, but is patient toward you not wishing it?

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Chris
And he should perish, but all should repentance so that the word you as important patient toward you that same you verse one is the beloved. The beloved is the same is in verse. Peter, chapter one, the elect. And so he's not wishing and he should perish, but that all should readers. Repentance is not all people. It's all of the elect, it's all of the beloved.

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Chris
It's all the people that God has chosen for salvation. And I think when we look in the context, it's very, very clear that the way that this verse is often used is is is incorrect. He's not saying that God wants all to be, everybody to be saved, all people to be saved. It's that he wants to give time for all the elect to be safe now.

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Chris
So that's beta three nine. But I do think that from what we see in other places in Scripture that we can say it's not God's desire that people would perish. So Ezekiel 3311 God says, and he's he's pleading with the people of Israel to repent. And he says to them, as I lived the curse of Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.

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Chris
So I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked. And we can go to First Timothy Chapter two and verse four, where Paul says that God desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth and that all their honestly, it is disputed about there about whether the all is is all people are again all the lacks.

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Chris
But whatever position we take on that, I think we would understand that there are two wills of God. There is his decreed will and his desired will. And so in in there is a sense in which God desires every one to to be saved. Although I think it's better to say that God doesn't desire anybody to perish. I think that's more faith that he doesn't desire anybody to perish.

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Chris
But his decreed will would be that some people will be saved and others will not. And then we've got to answer the question, why is that? I think our passage from this past week answers it. Why does does he decree that some people be punished for their sin, that is, to show his wrath and his power and his glory to objects of mercy?

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Chris
So I hope that that as helps, I think it's God desired. Will is for nobody to perish. But his decreed will is that some will, in order to show his wrath, his power and his glory. And therefore and people actually might say, well, that that's a contradiction. That's ridiculous. How can God have a decree, Will And the desire will that are different.

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Chris
And I think one of the answers to that would need to be that God desires in some instances more to show his wrath and his power and his mercy to those who don't deserve it than he does for everybody to be saved.

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Brenton
And yeah, yeah, that it's an important it's a very important distinction. And I think here let's let's actually go to the first submitted question for this week because I think that that's going to be the idea of of God's revealed will versus his decreed will. There's a lot of different terms we could use for these things. But we had a question come in that is, you know, from someone that's just kind of struggling to understand and to maybe even accept what what's being taught.

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Brenton
And so what he said is what is the relationship between God, the Creator and evil? Is there a systematic way to understand this that is able to explain the Bible in our world in the context of character and he kind of follows up the rest of it with the more I believe that God is sovereign, active and good, the harder it is to comprehend all three of these to be true.

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Brenton
And so I appreciate the honesty in that question. And I think that this conversation about God having, you know, a revealed will and just an example of that revealed, well, I think we can point to like the Ten Commandments so that that is how God has revealed his how he wants his people to live. So this is what this is what he wants.

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Brenton
But we know that we don't keep his Ten Commandments. So he doesn't in in in as much as that will exist, it doesn't mean that that is going to take place right now. We also see in Scripture that he has decreed, well, that he has this this decree that whatever comes to pass has been decreed by him. And so we see that and we talked about it last week.

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Brenton
But, you know, for Genesis 50 with with Joseph, where he's using what people meant for evil, for good. And so all of these things he's working behind the scenes to carry out his decreed will. And so in that light, how would how would you kind of respond to this question of is there a systematic way to understand the the relationship between the creator and and evil?

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Brenton
What would you say to that?

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Chris
Well, this is a really tough question and it's another very significant question. And I would just begin by just admitting that evil creates problems for Christianity. So we shouldn't gloss over this. We shouldn't say that we have all the answers for why a good God allows the evil that we see in our world to happen. There's no simple answer where it's like just closed case.

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Chris
We've got it. You know, I'll figure it out. And I think it's very important that we we admit this because there are people such as the individual who submitted this question, who have experienced really indescribable suffering and difficulty in their lives. And it's not just this individual. I know there's lots of people in our in our church body and as I mentioned, in our community and then our world.

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Chris
But I would say this is that I believe Christianity has greater resources to answer this question than any other religion in the world. And I would include atheism in that, that, you know, if there is no God, then we have no ability to call anything evil. And so it's just survival of the fittest and you can do whatever you want, the strong, you know, winds and gets to do whatever they want to do.

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Chris
And so we wouldn't even be having this discussion if there wasn't, you know, a God no to begin with. Yeah, but then I would also say that there are other religions that have different answers for suffering. And and so one of the answers would be it's just, you know, it's karma. You're suffering because in a prior life you cause suffering.

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Chris
And and then there is the other answer is like you just kind of got to grin and and bear it and just kind of get through it. And that's that, that's not really, really helpful. There's no hope there. And, and so Christianity in the Bible presents this idea. But I think reality is that God has good purposes in our suffering and that he means to use for for our good, for others good, and ultimately for his own glory.

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Chris
And so the Bible would say this is that God is not the author of Evil, that Evil into the world, when first of all, Satan rebelled against God and then he came in tempted to that. But Adam and Eve and they sin. And and as a result, the curse came upon the world. And so all of the evil that we we see and experience can be traced back to that.

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Chris
And all of the suffering actually comes from that. Even the suffering that we experience that isn't a result of our sin. So things like cancer and, and, you know, other diseases that we face even natural disasters. Yeah, those, you know, God, God can use those things certainly. And does to to carry out his plans and all. But they don't you know, God didn't do that simply just to do that.

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Chris
This goes back to, you know, that his decreed will and his desired will end. So I don't know that we can fully grasp why a good sovereign God allows evil in the world is certainly to the degree that that we we see it. I mean, right now we really when we should ask why does God allow, you know, terrorists to behead babies?

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Chris
Like, I don't I don't know that I can answer that question. Yeah, you can. But I do think the Bible teaches us time and time again we see this again. Joseph We see it, Joe We see it. Daniel And ultimately see it with Jesus. That God can use the worst evil to bring about the greatest good. And that's where I would go back to the cross.

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Chris
And where we always get to go back to the cross is like God is not immune from our suffering. He he He hates it so much and evil so much that he was willing to send his son to experience the greatest evil that's ever been done so that we can be safe. And so here's the thing. If God were just to come in and to destroy, wipe away all evil, that would mean he'd have to wipe wipe away us.

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Chris
And so instead he comes and his son experiences the the worst evil, the worst injustice, the worst suffering that has ever been experienced, so that there might come a day where our suffering will be no more. And so Christianity gives an answer and a hope that no other religion does no other philosophy does. So I don't know. Again, I don't think that's going to answer all the questions, but hopefully it's helpful.

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Brenton
Well, in a little bit of clarity in his question to he did say, it seems to me from the scripture that God often actively sends horrible things toward his people and he gives an example here of numbers 21 where God sent it says that Lord sent venomous snakes among them. And so he's kind of struggling with the fact that not not only, you know, does the Scripture say that God allows bad things, but in some cases sends these things in.

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Brenton
And so and that's a you know, it's a common objection to this view that that we hold to. And so the other position then would say that God, you know, knows that these things are going to happen, but doesn't necessarily decree them that that he's not necessarily you know, he's he's giving men free will to decide. And then that's how these things come about.

00;28;31;05 - 00;29;00;10
Brenton
And I you know, I just don't think that that's a better answer to the question because I think then you have God who knows that all these things are going to happen. He still chooses to create and he has no purpose in them. And so from from our perspective, we have a God that decrees that that bad things are going to happen.

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Brenton
He can then work those things out. He has good in mind when when those things are decreed. And so I think that can bring us a lot of hope. And I think you're right, that sees its culmination in the Gospel that through all of these awful, horrible things, we have this amazing story of redemption because of God's decree that, you know, bad things are going to happen.

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Brenton
But but his son is going to come and make all things right.

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Chris
Yeah. Well, let's talk about the numbers 21 message real quick. Okay? Because I think it's helpful here. The people of Israel rebelled against God, that they're complaining, they're groaning. And this is not the first time. Okay. It's just repeated. And so God sends the snakes that his judgment on them. And and so the reality is, is they all deserve to be destroyed, at least all the ones who are rebelling, which is a majority of them.

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Chris
And so it's not it's not like God is unjust and bringing judgment on them, but not all of them die. And so God provides a way of salvation because he goes and he says, Hey, Moses, take a bronze serpent, lifts it up, and everybody who looks to it basically repents and looks to it, they'll be saved. And Jesus uses this very story in John chapter three leading up to verse 16 Everybody knows John 316 but before that Jesus says, and just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so will the son of Man be lifted up that whoever believes in him will be saved?

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Chris
And so even in God's judgment there in Numbers 21, he provided a way of salvation for those those people specifically. And then he had in mind like that one of the purposes of all of that was ultimately to give us a picture and to point toward Jesus. And so, you know, to put all of that on, it's simply the people like it was their choice.

00;31;19;28 - 00;32;07;28
Chris
All about them is is is to miss the bigger picture of what God is doing. And I do want to be we've got to be really clear here. And again, this is so hard to be nuanced here. I never want anybody to hear that evil and bad things that happen to them happen to them because of something that they have, that they have done in terms of really just using an example of somebody who is is sexually abused like that is because I mean, I think that that that idea and to give people that idea is in some ways evil in itself and people who are survivors of abuse, they need not to be made

00;32;07;28 - 00;32;34;03
Chris
to to feel like or to think that they're at fault for that, that that that is not on them. It's on the person or people who perpetrated against them. And so, yes, there there are consequences for our sin. But that doesn't mean that the sin that happens to us or the difficult things that happen to us are as a result of our sin.

00;32;34;03 - 00;33;02;13
Chris
And I just want to be really, really careful. And especially, you know, you talk about, again, the abuse thing, but also about a sickness thing and I don't think that anybody who has cancer should think, well, this is because of a decision that I make or a terminal disease or are all of that. Now, I do say that we do know that God's still sovereign over that and that God in that evil has good purposes for them.

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Chris
If anybody's interested here, a great person to read is Joni Erickson today, a lady who, like 50 years ago, maybe more 50 years ago now, was in a diving accident. And she's been the quadriplegic here literally since she was a teenager. She's in her seventies now and she's got a lot of I mean, she's much more able to speak to this issue than I am and and a lot of difficulty, a lot of pain.

00;33;30;15 - 00;33;51;10
Chris
And maybe I will I will finish with this. I just want us to be really, really careful not to wash over like I've got good purposes. And so, you know, you know, just, you know, in your in your suffering, your difficulty, the suffering and the evil that we endure is to be grieved and is to be mourned over.

00;33;51;10 - 00;34;15;23
Chris
And I think we see this illustrated by Jesus, specifically John, Chapter 11, as he's raising Lazarus from the dead. And so let's let's not like, let's lament that. Yeah. And yet let's lament is includes with it hope like hope that God has a good purpose, good purposes in this for those who are his.

00;34;15;25 - 00;34;37;24
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. That's a really good way to and I think I think that the there can be kind of an accusation and probably a true one toward, you know, the reformed perspective on this that we tend to be just academic in our responses in these things. And you know, this is the way it is and you need to accept it.

00;34;37;26 - 00;35;01;22
Brenton
But you're right. Like we we really we should not gloss over the suffering that the people have have gone through. And honestly, there's there's not much consoling I can offer in those situations. It's it's terrible. We should we should grieve with those who grieve. And yet we should be able to give hope in right and.

00;35;01;25 - 00;35;02;08
Chris
Well.

00;35;02;12 - 00;35;03;06
Brenton
In God's purposes.

00;35;03;09 - 00;35;51;28
Chris
But I think it's important that we start with our presence by being there and not thinking that we have to give answers. that we, we do agree with those who are grieving, that we, we face the reality of the difficulty and the suffering and the pain. And then as we have done that lovingly and helping people to see that there's hope, but that hope comes through the gospel first and foremost, and that we we have not only a sovereign God, but a suffering God.

00;35;52;01 - 00;36;06;21
Chris
And then really we start with the suffering he suffered. And then as we get his heart, then we can move maybe to his sovereignty and how he might be using for good.

00;36;06;23 - 00;36;26;07
Brenton
Yeah, Well, thanks, Chris. I'm thankful for the conversation that we had today, and I hope it's been helpful to you guys. And thank you also for sending in your questions. We had some more come in this week that we just weren't able to get to today, but we do hope to be able to respond to those in the near future.

00;36;26;09 - 00;36;32;21
Brenton
So please keep sending them in. Chris, as always, thank you. And we will talk to you guys next week.