Episode 37: God’s Sovereignty & Man’s Responsibility, Part 1

00;00;02;15 - 00;00;24;09
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further. I'm Brenton Grimm, and I'm here again with Chris Carr. Welcome back to the States.

00;00;24;11 - 00;00;41;01
Chris
Good to be here. It's good to be gone and to have an opportunity to see what God's doing around the world. But excited to be back at Harmony, and especially here in October. My favorite part of the year. The season has arrived, the fall has arrived.

00;00;41;01 - 00;01;07;29
Brenton
So there you go. So we've officially gotten to Romans nine. And I want to say that you really did do a great job covering this passage. This chapter is known for being difficult and causing some arguments, But honestly, I think some of those are just from a mischaracterization of of important doctrines. So I appreciate your faithfulness to the text, and I really enjoyed it this week.

00;01;08;02 - 00;01;09;27
Chris
Great. Thank you.

00;01;09;29 - 00;01;42;03
Brenton
So before we dive in, though, we know that there have been and will likely be a lot of questions from these difficult passages. And so we now have a way for you guys to ask questions about the current sermon series so you can send us an email at Ask at further podcast dot com. This email address will also be in the episode description moving forward, so please take advantage of that and start service to your questions.

00;01;42;03 - 00;02;07;10
Brenton
We're excited to dive into some of these things that, um, that you guys actually are curious about. So let's, let's jump into here. So Paul starts this section by mourning the state of his people. You mentioned that you were convicted this week about the last people we know, and I was studying this passage this week. It also stuck out to me.

00;02;07;12 - 00;02;30;12
Brenton
It's obvious that that Paul is very troubled over his people and even goes as far as to want to be cut off from Christ for their sake. The word he uses there is anathema, and it's actually the same word he uses in Galatians one eight, where he says, But even if we are an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preach to you.

00;02;30;12 - 00;02;52;17
Brenton
Let him be a curse or let him be anathema. I think we need to we need to kind of take that seriously and actually look at what Paul's well, Paul's saying, but it got me thinking about why we aren't as urgent or concerned about the last as he was here. We all have friends and family who don't know the Lord, and sometimes, you know, I'm fine.

00;02;52;21 - 00;03;00;12
Brenton
Ignoring it more than I, more than I should be. Why do you think that is? And how can we change it?

00;03;00;14 - 00;03;27;00
Chris
Well, it's a big question. I think there are probably a lot of reasons why we are not as concerned as we should be. One is this is uncomfortable to think about, right? I mean, it's it's much easier to ignore the the the the painful, you know, really thoughts and reality of of people spending eternity separated from God in hell.

00;03;27;00 - 00;03;54;20
Chris
And so it's simply easier and more comfortable just to not even think about it. I do think though at least I'm speaking from my own perspective here and what the the spirit's been convicted me of is I just don't really have the gospel is deeply ingrained in my in my heart as as I need it to be is if we we understand.

00;03;54;20 - 00;04;19;21
Chris
And when I'm talking about the gospel, I'm talking about both the bad news and the good news and the bad news about where we are without without Christ, and that we are totally lost and hopeless. And then obviously, the good news is that in his love for us, God sent his son to take the penalty that we deserved.

00;04;19;21 - 00;05;03;13
Chris
And we get when we get the magnitude, both of our looseness and of the amazing grace that God has shown us and that we really, really grabbed the greatness of that, then we're going to want to share that with other people. And so I really think that the the magnitude or the degree I should say, to which we really grasp how great it is to be saved, that's the degree to which we're going to want to share with others so that they can be saved as well.

00;05;03;16 - 00;06;00;24
Chris
I think that this also kind of plays into where we find ourselves today in Western culture, though, as we're very individualistic and we're very me centered, me focused, life is about me. And so we just become somewhat cold and callous to the reality facing so many other people. And then we just I go back maybe a little bit to what I started with is we just don't want to think about difficult and hard and uncomfortable things, and we don't want to says We don't want to do what is uncomfortable, and it's uncomfortable sharing the gospel with people and in confronting them with the reality of, okay, this is this is where you are, this is

00;06;00;24 - 00;06;22;27
Chris
what you are facing. And sometimes, you know, Paul says, I'm not ashamed. And sometimes we are we are ashamed of it because and by that, what I mean is we we are asking that, like, what are these What are people going to think about us or how are they going to treat or how are they going to respond us to us?

00;06;22;29 - 00;06;45;15
Chris
And Paul says, I'm not ashamed because I know that the gospel has the power to change people. And that's what people need more than anything else. And then maybe the last one we just don't love. I mean, I mean, I should say I don't I guess I won't speak for everybody here, but I just don't love people nearly as much as I should.

00;06;45;17 - 00;07;24;06
Chris
Yeah. And so you did ask, how do we change this? And I think, first of all, it's it's owning up to where we're at and then repenting and then it's immersing ourselves more and more in the gospel. And then it is actually deciding that we're going to make some changes and we're going to be willing to become uncomfortable, We're going to be willing to have hard conversations, we're going to be willing to prioritize.

00;07;24;08 - 00;07;53;19
Chris
I think really prayer is where it begins. And so Paul is going to talk about in chapter ten, verse one is my heart's desire in my prayer that they may be saved. So I think that you you're we're never going to actually have a heart for people and then actually go out and share the gospel and that's we're we're praying for them, praying that we will have the courage to do so, too.

00;07;53;23 - 00;07;55;17
Chris
It's a long answer, but no.

00;07;55;20 - 00;08;19;24
Brenton
There's one that's a good list, I think. I think you're right. You know, I think it is uncomfortable. And I wonder how much of it for us in this, you know, in this day in America, if if it really is that we think it's offensive to people or we are just more nervous about what they're going to think of us in general of, you know, what we actually believe.

00;08;19;24 - 00;08;43;28
Brenton
I think that there there is a real fear of I mean, I may look like an idiot because they're, you know, it's just kind of where where the culture has gone in a lot of ways that people are far more, you know, not that long ago, I think the question was, is this is Christianity true? And, you know, the secular consensus is it's not.

00;08;44;00 - 00;09;10;26
Brenton
But now I think the the question seems to be in that space is like, is Christianity good like or is is the are the truth? Claims are actually good if they are true. And that's I think that's another conversation to have, one that we need to be ready for. But at the same time, like one that we need to be comfortable in our own minds to have with people.

00;09;10;29 - 00;09;12;11
Brenton
And it's it's hard.

00;09;12;14 - 00;09;40;09
Chris
Right? Well, and what you're talking about here is, is the question is, is it good? Because what it what it does is it undermines the really present preeminent belief today is that of expressive individualism. Like I get to determine what is right and my whatever I feel is right is right. And the gospel just hits that and there's a collision course.

00;09;40;09 - 00;10;09;15
Chris
And so you're telling me that I need to change that there's something wrong with the way that I'm thinking, believing, feeling, acting and so sudden. It's not good because it's like you're creating harm. That I mean, that's the whole thing, right? You treating those those near words, your beliefs are creating harm. And so yeah, so yeah. And so it puts us but I go back to this that we were people pleasers.

00;10;09;17 - 00;10;27;02
Chris
Many of us are people, but we want to believe. And so when you're sharing the gospel with people, you're not you're very often not going to be pleasing to them, or you're putting yourself in a place where they may be unhappy with you. Or at least that's can be the fear. Yeah.

00;10;27;04 - 00;10;28;27
Brenton
At least face to face. Yeah.

00;10;29;00 - 00;10;55;02
Chris
Yeah. Right. Well, I've said before it it is much easier for me to share the gospel publicly from the pulpit than it is an individual. And that's the really strange people here like. But if you actually would do it on a somewhat regular basis, it would actually make sense, because I have I know especially the church like Hermie, a lot of people when I share the gospel are rooting for.

00;10;55;02 - 00;11;15;18
Chris
Yeah, great. We love that. Yeah, it's much different when it's my my uncle, who I know is, you know, possibly going to respond negatively. And at the best, I my my fear is he's just going to, like, shrug it off.

00;11;15;18 - 00;11;17;10
Brenton
You know, with indifference.

00;11;17;12 - 00;11;32;05
Chris
Right? Indifference. Yeah. Or, you know, and sometimes it's harder with people that you know than people that you don't know because you know for sure you don't have much to lose with somebody that you don't know but somebody that you do. And that's another issue altogether.

00;11;32;08 - 00;11;46;22
Brenton
Is that something that you think you just practice or. I know we've talked about evangelism some on on here before, but I mean, is is that a matter of you just you just start doing it. I know. I know. That's what Nathan Williams would say.

00;11;46;22 - 00;12;18;15
Chris
Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that that certainly is true. And Nathan's a much better evangelist than than I probably will ever be. I would add, I think that what we really need to get better at doing is, is not simply conveying the the words of the gospel, but we need to do better at telling stories about how the gospel has changed us and people who certainly are changed by truth.

00;12;18;15 - 00;12;48;17
Chris
It made me for sure it is the truth that that that that changes people. You'll know the truth, Jesus said. The truth will set you free. But the way that that truth often comes best to people is through story. And am I talking about making up a story? I'm talking about the story of how the gospel has changed and is changing you.

00;12;48;19 - 00;13;19;14
Chris
And so, yeah, there are certainly evangelism techniques and there's simply you're definitely practicing. And here you need obviously to know the content of the gospel. But how, how is that gospel actually? What is it done in your life? You know, once I was blind, now I see. And, you know, we had a bunch of baptisms on Sunday and there's just some great stories.

00;13;19;14 - 00;13;46;11
Chris
And one of the stories that probably the one that stuck out with me the most is, is one of our ladies who you just shared, you know, about how she had skills and her eyes. And she is this illustration of a of a lizard in the scales being pulled off of this lizards I even though it kept turning its head away and that was her And she's just got a very powerful story now that she can tell other people.

00;13;46;14 - 00;13;54;17
Chris
And we all have a powerful story if we're willing to, to think about it and to maybe this is where the practice comes into play.

00;13;54;24 - 00;14;25;11
Brenton
Yeah, well, yeah, I think it's easy to think that our stories aren't most of us, you know, I think don't maybe have the flashiest stories, but I think if we understand the depths of our depravity where we are at, we all have miraculous stories. And so there's there's always something to be said that's good. But I think I think just reading through this passage, I mean, it's there's something to take from Paul's, the grief that he has over and over his lost.

00;14;25;14 - 00;14;38;23
Brenton
Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, relatives. And so I think that's just something to ponder as we move on from this, is do we have that grief over lost people? And if not, why not?

00;14;38;27 - 00;14;59;03
Chris
Mm hmm. I love what you're what you're saying there, because I think we've all got to ask the question about why is that the case for us? If it is the case, Yeah. If we look at repository in here, we're like, That's not me. And I would guess most of us would would say that that's not me. We need to all each individual ask, why is that the case?

00;14;59;03 - 00;15;10;13
Chris
Because what it is for you might be what different what is differently for for me. But we need to wrestle with that and not just like pass by it You okay?

00;15;10;16 - 00;15;13;19
Brenton
Good. All right. You ready for this one?

00;15;13;21 - 00;15;16;19
Chris
Okay, I guess.

00;15;16;21 - 00;15;30;26
Brenton
So. You mentioned on Sunday the conflict in Israel and Palestine that's currently going on. And given what what we discussed on Sunday, what do you think of this situation?

00;15;30;28 - 00;16;26;12
Chris
Well, well, that's an open ended way to ask the question is. But all joking aside, it's heartbreaking. Yeah. To to just see the devastation, the loss, the terror, the hurt and the reality is, is that this has been going on for, you know, decades, if not centuries, if not millennia. And in some way an and the as somebody who's who's traveled, I wouldn't say extensively in this part of the world, but certainly numerous times and knows, you know, people who who live in this region and have visited I visited both Israel and been in the West Bank.

00;16;26;15 - 00;16;54;22
Chris
I've been in I just came back from Lebanon. And it's just that these things are they're always simmering. And it's it's it's it's always just really kind of to boil over. And this, at least in my lifetime, is the the worst. Yeah. And to just see so many you know, I don't think we could put on innocent people, but certainly people who who do not want this.

00;16;54;23 - 00;17;23;18
Chris
Yeah. Yeah. And who are who have not played a part in bringing this about to be to be hurt on on both sides, you know. And so you know, there are a lot of Palestinians who basically are pawns in this war and they are experiencing devastation. And so and we have brothers, and this is what we need to recognize.

00;17;23;18 - 00;17;55;06
Chris
We are brothers and sisters, but on both sides, we have Jewish brothers, sisters, and we have Palestinian brothers and sisters. I'll never forget visiting a seminary in Bethlehem, which is which is in the West, the West Bank. And they there are they're doing great work. But but it's hard. It's difficult on a many different fronts. They're there and they're caught even in the middle between the palace, Sunni Arabs and the and the Jews.

00;17;55;06 - 00;18;27;16
Chris
And so I would also say this is just a very, very complex situation. And, you know, the talking heads will say it's really, really clear about how we should look at this and how we should view this. And in some aspects, it is very clear that we should repudiate the the terror and the attack on Israel and we should repudiate Hamas and their desire to literally wipe Israel off the map.

00;18;27;18 - 00;18;58;27
Chris
There's, you know, we should be unequivocal and denouncing that. And yet the the history here and the tension and the relationship between the Jews and the Palestinians is very complicated. And yeah, so I'm heartbroken about it. And and really concerned for what this means for the region and for the church and for the world and for people that I know and care about.

00;18;59;03 - 00;19;01;05
Chris
Yeah.

00;19;01;07 - 00;19;31;00
Brenton
Yeah, I know. I mean, most most kind of, as you mentioned, talking head evangelicals, you know, are going to take a position on this. Right. They're they're going to take Israel's side kind of no matter what. And and I think there's reasons for that and maybe some time we can get into it. But do you think as Christians, we have a specific loyalty to one side or the other in this conflict?

00;19;31;03 - 00;20;05;15
Chris
Yeah, I mean, again, I want to reiterate that this is very complex and I think this is a a very difficult question to answer. And I think it's possible for us to have a political view on this. And I think we can have a political view, but we've got to be careful about how that overlaps with with what we would would see that the Bible and what God would call us to hear.

00;20;05;18 - 00;20;49;03
Chris
And so I think we need to to realize that, again, we we have Palestinian brothers and sisters there and we have Jewish brothers and sisters. And we also need to think through this through a gospel lens and that the gospel God is not pro-Israel and anti-Arab. Yeah, and I'm not saying he's not pro-Israel. Sure. I'm just just saying it's it's not it's not necessarily as clear cut, I think, as some people want to make the situation.

00;20;49;05 - 00;21;20;12
Chris
And I, I think we need to make a distinction, as I tried to do on Sunday from the text, is that there is there ethnic Israel and there's true spiritual Israel. And so we need to understand that and recognize that. And we also need to recognize that the the the state of Israel as it is the nation state is is essentially a secular state.

00;21;20;12 - 00;21;55;28
Chris
And and it's it is a state in a group of people that are essentially in rebellion against God, as they were all throughout the old and the New Testament. So you got to keep that in mind. And then at the same time, we have to recognize that we're going to get this in Rome in chapter 11. Like for me, I think it's really clear that God has a future plan to to bring a large number of ethnic Jews to salvation.

00;21;56;00 - 00;22;27;01
Chris
And so God has a plan for a ethnic Israel. And so and we can have some debates about, you know, that and ties and eschatology. And it gets complicated there. And I should also add here that I think it's it's it's very clear, it's undeniable that Satan has tried throughout history to annihilate and eliminate the the Jewish people.

00;22;27;05 - 00;22;51;24
Chris
They have been attacked in a unique and a unique way. And you just talk I mean, you go back to to the pharaoh and we're going to talk about Pharaoh this week. But Pharaoh tried to kill the the the the baby boys you go to the implicates, which is, you know, you may think that's a kind of a reference out of nowhere.

00;22;51;24 - 00;23;23;08
Chris
But as they're leaving Egypt the implicates attack Israel and they attack the women and the children You can go throughout the Old Testament. HEYMANN You know, in the Book of Esther and everything that happened there, where, again, trying to eliminate the Jewish people and then we go to Herod and the baby boys in Bethlehem, and of course, the one that's, you know, closest to our time is the Holocaust.

00;23;23;10 - 00;24;02;03
Chris
And then you you also have that some of the I don't necessarily say nations, although maybe you could say that. But but there are people groups committed to denial. I mean, Hamas, their their kind of charter is like what we are after is we want to we we want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. And so why I'm going on in this and I can tell this podcast is going to be a little bit long, but it is simple answer for me.

00;24;02;03 - 00;24;24;07
Chris
Simple answers are problematic and they get get us into trouble. And so I'm trying to address as many of the different things or at least point out this. I think we have to be really, really clear that there is a significant antisemitism in our world and there always has been. And that the only answer to that, as I look at it, is it is demonic.

00;24;24;10 - 00;24;48;25
Chris
So I've read a lot, especially in recent years, about about the Holocaust. And it is it is beyond horrific. Yeah. And I know we all would say, yes, horrific. But when you really look into like the final solution and just and all that, I mean, there's no other way that you can explain that other than it's that Satan is behind it.

00;24;48;28 - 00;25;18;21
Chris
And so we need to we need to that needs to be a part of this conversation, too, because it it we can be in danger of this kind of this both sadism. And I think we even we can see that in our country are paying attention to to to different places, especially as it was coming out of some of the Ivy League schools and all that, just that there's somewhat justifying what Hamas is because of how Israel has treated the Palestinians.

00;25;18;23 - 00;25;53;06
Chris
And I think if you if you look at it, the the Israel hasn't always treated the Palestinians justly, but that does not in any way give give us any right to do what they have done and doesn't justify that in any way. So we need to be unequivocally able to say this attack by Hamas on Israel is is is horrific, it's evil and it's wrong and just put a period after that.

00;25;53;09 - 00;26;27;24
Chris
Yeah. And then at the same time, maybe I should say not at the same time, but there needs to be room in us not to have this idea that Israel can do no wrong, which I do find some evangelical Christians see me that have this kind of mindset and that because they are God's chosen people, that, you know, we need to fully support the current nation state of Israel in every single way.

00;26;27;26 - 00;26;57;27
Chris
And I and I say this to everybody is, listen, I realize I probably stirred up more than I than I had intended to hear, but I'm I just we need to be willing I've talked about this before. There's a lot of nuance. As Christians, we should be okay with nuance. And we need to be nuanced and in these soundbites, clear statements on one or the other, I think are unhelpful.

00;26;57;27 - 00;27;01;02
Chris
And I think, quite honestly, they're oftentimes unbiblical.

00;27;01;08 - 00;27;03;08
Brenton
Mm hmm. Yeah.

00;27;03;12 - 00;27;05;17
Chris
Is that enough for you.

00;27;05;19 - 00;27;32;21
Brenton
Know, it's good. Those are good thoughts. You know, I think I think both of us have our own political thoughts on the situation and, you know, strategic things like how how America should deal with it, blah, blah, blah. It's kind of a relevant to what we're talking about. And I think I think I'll probably just wrap up this question and your points with let's be careful with the rhetoric that we use.

00;27;32;23 - 00;27;33;08
Brenton
Yeah.

00;27;33;11 - 00;27;34;16
Chris
For sure.

00;27;34;19 - 00;27;58;04
Brenton
And let's join Paul in the beginning of Romans nine and desire repentance for both Israel and Palestine. I mean, there's we have a lot of there are Christians there, but there's a lot of people that aren't Christians. And I think we need to desire the repentance of of Israel and of Palestine. And so, yeah, let's wrap it.

00;27;58;04 - 00;28;29;15
Chris
Up there and I and I'll go back to your Q&A mention at the beginning. Feel free to send us some more questions and we'd be willing to to dialog on those things. But I love what you what you you wrap it wrapped it up with their brand. It's like and I mentioned this on Sunday is like there's only one way that people are saved and it's not by national heritage, it's not by your family background, it's not by your, you know, religious experience.

00;28;29;15 - 00;28;37;12
Chris
It's simply through saving faith in Jesus. And so both Israel and Palestine need to repent and and interest in Jesus.

00;28;37;20 - 00;28;58;07
Brenton
So any man, Paul, spends a few verses listing the advantages that Israel had over the Gentiles. They were first given the covenants, the law, the promises, etc.. What do you think his point is in listing all of these?

00;28;58;09 - 00;29;38;19
Chris
Well, I think he is actually setting up his objection or question that he is responding to beginning in verse six. So verse six, he says, But it's not as though the word of God has failed. It's a statement there. But I think it's really a question is has the word of God failed? And so he's running through those things in verses four and five more because he he he knows what he's trying to answer an objection that's going to come.

00;29;38;21 - 00;29;55;22
Chris
And so the objection is, is like Israel has all these advantages. So yet they have them believe. So that means that the word of God has failed. And the reason I say this is because we're going to see here in verse 14, there's a question that he responds to. And then in verse 19, there's a question that he responds to.

00;29;55;23 - 00;30;15;23
Chris
And this is kind of it goes throughout. And I think that this is it's not put in the statement in verse six, but I think it really is it's we can read it has the word of God failed. And and he he lists these things in order to introduce that. At least that's how that's how I read it.

00;30;15;25 - 00;30;25;04
Brenton
Okay. You know, one that one that stuck out to me was that he said to them, belong the glory. What do you think? What do you think that means?

00;30;25;07 - 00;30;55;15
Chris
Well, I think he's referring to the the kind of glory, which is that was the presence of God in the tabernacle, and that is representing that. You know, that Tabernacle was a mobile temple, essentially. And it it represented, you know, God's presence that that's where God was present with his people. And so I think that what the point of the glory is, is that the people of Israel had God living among them.

00;30;55;17 - 00;31;26;09
Chris
Right? And they I mean, they had they had him him there and not demigods everywhere is omnipresent, but like it like real his his presence amongst his people in a visible, tangible way. Mm hmm. And yet, I mean, I this is a I mean, there's some great application for us here. Like get they weren't saved because you have to eat.

00;31;26;11 - 00;31;38;19
Chris
You have to have a personal relationship with him and you have to respond to him in faith. And so I think that that's what sacrament.

00;31;38;19 - 00;32;03;00
Brenton
Yeah. Good. Some people would read Romans nine and interpret it as Paul talking about nations rather than individual salvation. How do you think they come to that conclusion? And why do you believe that that Paul is talking about individuals? Why do you land where you do?

00;32;03;03 - 00;32;36;22
Chris
Well, I think that they come to that conclusion because they need that in order to support their theological system. It's a way that they will seek to refute the unconditional election. And I believe that Paul's clearly teaching here. And so you can't deny that Paul's teaching election. See, the even the wording that he uses, if not the argument.

00;32;36;24 - 00;33;17;11
Chris
And so in in order to I don't say deny that he's he's he's teaching unconditional election on a personal basis. They will make the case that, okay, now he's just talking about how God chose, you know, Jacob represented as the representative of the Jewish nation as opposed to Esau and and pretty much everybody else. And the reason that I would, I guess, for lack of a better word, refute that is I mean, he's he's using individual names here.

00;33;17;14 - 00;34;03;01
Chris
Yeah, he's using he's using a personal name. So obviously, there is some corporate discussion here, but that's not what is in view here in really all the way from verse seven, all the way to to verse 13, and whether it's Abraham and then Isaac, and then Jacob and Esau, and then we're going to go on to verse 14 and 15 where Paul's going to answer the, you know, the objection that we're going to talk about this week is, is there injustice on God's part in choosing some and not choosing others?

00;34;03;03 - 00;34;27;26
Chris
And it's the it's not fair, you know, statement. But Paul says then he's quoting from Exodus four. He says, The Moses I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and out have compassion on whom I have compassion. That's that's individual language. He's not talking about I will have mercy on you. No nation is. He's talking about individual people.

00;34;27;26 - 00;34;51;16
Chris
And I think the context there is from and I don't need to teach the message. So you mean this is back in Exodus after the Golden Calf incident and you you know, it's telling Moses, I'm going. I'm going to have mercy on the people that are going to have mercy on and compassion of compassion on. He's not talking about the nation as a whole.

00;34;51;16 - 00;35;18;04
Chris
He's talking about actually specific people within the nation, because some of the people who the Golden Calf incident were actually judged. They were killed on the spot. So I think that the whole language here and the whole point here is that it's personal. And what's more, if you go back again to versus one through five in Paul's talking there is that I want my brothers to be saved.

00;35;18;06 - 00;35;37;25
Chris
He's not talking about the knee. I want the whole nation to be I mean, he does want the whole nation to be safe. It's not about corporate salvation. It's about individual salvation. And the contrast there is is that just because they are corporate Israel doesn't mean that they're individually saved. And chapter ten, verse one, My heart and desire my prayers, that they would be saved.

00;35;37;27 - 00;36;01;29
Brenton
So yeah, yeah, I think I think where I would probably go with that is Romans chapter one through Chapter eight. I think that it's really hard to say that there's a clean break between eight and nine to say that, okay, now we're talking about nations because eight is so clearly individual, like when we're talking about the golden chain of salvation.

00;36;01;29 - 00;36;17;01
Brenton
Like that's you can't say that nations are glorified. Like that's not the context of that. Yeah. And so yeah I think to to separate eight and nine is is to the detriment of your reader.

00;36;17;03 - 00;36;48;05
Chris
Well and I think for for our listeners here this is really important something that you've hit on here is because in I'm not going to get into labels and terms but there are two, you know, basic camps that people can fall into here. And it there's a tendency actually for for people in both camps to kind of take Romans nine and even just nine out and look at it in isolation.

00;36;48;05 - 00;37;10;11
Chris
Yeah. And, and nine, ten, 11 go together. And like I talked about on Sunday, it's all about hear this, that the Jewish people have rejected the gospel by and large and and what does that mean for Jews? It was a message for Gentiles, but it also cannot be taken out of context. It goes from eight into to not.

00;37;10;11 - 00;37;23;11
Chris
I mean, it's like Paul's not starting a new subject here or a new book or it's not an addendum or an appendix or like, okay, here's something kind of it's like you guys made all of these promises to.

00;37;23;11 - 00;37;25;22
Brenton
Us.

00;37;25;24 - 00;37;48;11
Chris
To people who would believe in faith in Jesus. How do we know, though, that those promises are going to take place? So we got to remember that the Paul is Paul, you know, taught this material like he taught the gospel all the time, like daily day after day after day. And so at this point in his ministry here, it's not early in his ministry.

00;37;48;11 - 00;38;21;22
Chris
He knows the objections that people are going to have. He knows the the questions and people are going to say, well, what about this and what about this? And so he knows after he's just laid all this out, that in the Roman church there were Jews and Gentiles, And he knows that there's some people are going to say, okay, and especially I think he's talking to the Gentiles in particular here, like if God hasn't if God failed in his mission to the Jews, it could seem like he is people are making that question or having that objection.

00;38;21;25 - 00;38;24;14
Chris
Then how will you know he's not going to feel this and he's answering all of.

00;38;24;14 - 00;38;26;22
Brenton
Them, all of that. Yeah.

00;38;26;24 - 00;39;02;03
Chris
So and again, it's a it's salvation is salvation is is individual in the sense that nobody there's no grandchildren in in in the kingdom. Right. Okay. We don't get in on anybody's coattails. And and so yes there are as we're to see, we already talked about this. There are corporate realities when it comes to what we see in Romans nine, ten, 11.

00;39;02;03 - 00;39;11;29
Chris
But but ultimately, this is about our individual relate and an individual's relationship with God that only comes about their faith in Jesus.

00;39;12;01 - 00;39;35;20
Brenton
Yeah. Hey, man, it's great. Okay, we're going to wrap it up there. But yeah, please send some questions our way. I'm sure there will be some after this discussion. We'd be happy to check them out and talk about them as we have time. So one more time ask further podcast dot com and it'll be in the description below.

00;39;35;22 - 00;39;36;29
Brenton
So I'll talk to you next week.