Episode 35: God is For Us!

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Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further. I'm Brenton Grimm, and I'm here again with Matt Mitchell. How's it going?

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Matt
Hello. Doing good?

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Brenton
Great. Yeah. This last week you preached on Romans 831 to 34. And I guess I wanted to start this out with having you kind of rank the Rocky movies for me, because I have no idea. I've never seen any of them.

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Matt
Oh, gosh. Are you myself in trouble for anybody? I disagree with here?

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Brenton
No, Just.

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Matt
Go for it. Okay. Ranking the Rocky movies. I promise. I wasn't given this one beforehand. All right. Rocky five is the worst. Okay.

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Brenton
It's very weak. Start from the lowest.

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Matt
Yeah. Yeah. Rocky doesn't even fight in that way. There's a street fight at the end, but that was the worst. And I think everybody agrees there. Rocky Balboa was the one that came out kind of early MID-AUGHTS actually don't know when that one came out, but I'm putting that one towards the lower side. 206 Rocky kind of. It's almost he comes out of a retirement home to fight this younger guy.

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Matt
That seems impossible. Sure. Even though he's Rocky the Creed movies that stick in there as I like the Creed movies. They're a step up from five and six. Then going back, I would say. I said it in the sermon. Rocky four is my favorite closely with Rocky three. And then I got out of work here. But and then one and two are classic and they're great too, but they're all a bit slower.

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Matt
I was talking to actually Jason Lambert, member of the Danville campus, great guy. And we were both laughing about Rocky one or two because they're so slow that if you're going to get into the Rocky movies, don't start maybe with one or two unless you just know they're going to be little bit slow and then three and four really pick up and then they're fun.

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Matt
So yeah, okay, lots of eighties cheesiness, but sure, you get into it too with the characters and it's a.

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Brenton
Four was the one with Dolph Lundgren. Lundgren Right.

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Matt
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he comes back in one of the Creed movies, so.

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Brenton
All right, I'll have to watch them eventually. I probably.

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Matt
Won't. What I'm really famous for is my Rocky impersonations, but we're not here for that. Really.

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Brenton
We can pull that out a little later.

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Matt
We're going to have this up.

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Brenton
All right. So the way you introduced your message was to point out that to understand and deal with the weight of this passage accurately, we need to know what Paul had written previously in chapter five. And, you know, to the first half of eight and that got me thinking about the way we study scripture in general. Paul says in in verse 31, If God is for us, who can be against us?

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Brenton
And you know that that sounds great, just as a generic statement. Sure. But honestly, I think it can kind of fly over our head a little bit at times. And I think it it is kind of a vague assertion if we don't know what he means by it. And so can you talk a little about biblical study in general and why it's it's crucial to put Scripture in its proper context before we try to draw out its meaning?

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Matt
Yeah, great question. Going back to my experience this week, the beginning of verse 31 says, What? So this is the beginning of my passage and just putting you in the seat of a pastor preparing a message. I'm supposed to start with verse 31. It says, What then shall we say to these things? Question Mark. And so in my mind I'm thinking, okay, what are these things that Paul is saying?

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Matt
What shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? And then I go back to and I'm looking at the previous verse and I'm look at the previous paragraph and all of chapter eight and as I do a little bit more study, I realize again that Chapter 5 to 8 all kind of go together.

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Matt
And so as I'm doing my own research and looking back all the way from chapter five up to where we're at, you know, right before 31, verse 30, I'm like, Oh, my goodness, there's so much here. And so Paul is saying this about all of that is all these glories of the gospel ending with that kind of unbreakable golden chain of God for new us predestined us, called us, justified us, glorified us, and then He hinges and says, What then shall we say to these things?

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Matt
It goes for us, who is against us? So it just it's so much more powerful when you realize what Paul's leading up to. And I was really trying to focus in on that door my message. But making it simpler than that, if you just think about context and studying your Bible, it's so important because at it's worse at its worst.

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Matt
We can take verses out of context and it has a completely different meaning if we just take it and kind of throw it out there on an app, try to apply it to our life, and maybe not as bad, but it's still not quite there is. It's just incomplete. And like you just said earlier, if God is for us, who can be against us?

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Matt
That's a great verse and it's kind of hard to miss and misapplied if you're just a Christian. That's true of you. But if you understand the whole context, it's like, Oh, my word, this is this is a really big deal that God has this destiny planned out for me. And he's called me and he's justified me and Jesus, and he's glorified me because God's outside of time.

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Matt
And while God is for me, He's for his church. So that kind of answers your question a little bit.

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Brenton
Yeah, that's that's helpful, I think. Yeah, you're you're right at the worst. I mean, we can totally misinterpret things and get just the wrong, the wrong view of things. But also I think what what is maybe even more common is that things just lose all meaning. Like we we can we can talk about these these things like I mean we see in Romans eight so many things that are quoted a lot that I mean you covered some of them even just the line, if God is for us, who can be against us, we're going to get into this in a little bit.

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Brenton
But I just I think it's so important. There was actually a book I read a while ago called Never Read a Bible Verse by by Greg Kolko. And, you know, his his point is.

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Matt
That clever title.

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Brenton
Yeah. Like we that's that's kind of the American Christian thing is to get a calendar with with one Bible verse on it by itself. And sure that is supposed to be encouraging to us. And I think it is if we, if we know where that verse came from and what it was actually saying.

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Matt
Right. Yeah. And just to add one more thing to that, I think one thing that gets everybody just really super frustrated, like in the news or you think about stuff that takes place in in our culture when somebody is quoted. But it's just a pressure piece. It's a fraction of what they're or it was like a they were literally saying it so they could set up a point later and they take it out of context.

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Matt
And it's like that is not what you're saying the opposite or whatever it is, but it's the same way with the Bible. Most, most of times the greatest critics of the Bible that will just throw out a Bible verse here and there, like the Bible condones slavery or something. And and they're just taking these little snippets and then taking it out of context and using it as weaponizing the Bible against itself.

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Matt
But in context, I mean, just any person without a seminary or Bible school degree is not a pastor. You can solve so many problems by just looking at, okay, what are the verses happening before? What are the verses happening after? Now what's this verse mean? And yeah, it typically makes us just appreciate God in his words, so much more.

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Matt
Anyway, so.

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Brenton
Well, yeah. And I think knowing that most of us that that are listening to this and you know me also I'm not a Bible scholar. And so while we're not necessarily expected to know the the the deep background behind all of these things and to know historically what the context was. And so that's why it's important to find resources that are good, find commentaries that are actually helpful.

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Brenton
Now, there's a lot of junk out there, but we've we've kind of talked over this and Chris and I on the podcast before and yeah, you know, if, if you're ever looking for resources that would be helpful. Reach out, reach out to us.

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Matt
And.

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Brenton
To someone on staff or a pastor here.

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Matt
I use resources every single time I do anything because I'm, uh, I'm not a Bible scholar either. And I'm just a normal guy who preaches God's word. Yeah. So.

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Brenton
Yeah. And I guess alongside that, I feel like we've had this conversation before, but the, the whole idea of just, you know, me and my Bible, we're going to we're going to figure this out. And I think that to some extent, yeah, we absolutely certainly need to rely on the spirit in in gathering things out of the Bible.

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Brenton
But but I think it's a little prideful and silly for us to think that we're going to figure out everything that we need to as scripture by ourselves. Yeah. Like we stay in on the on the on the shoulders of giants that have come before us.

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Matt
Absolutely. Yeah. That can't be the only factor. But that is that is a factor among many others.

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Brenton
Yeah. Okay. So kind of continuing off of that, a few lines in this passage, you know, could could be taken in many different ways. And I think they they quite often are. For example, what we were just talking about, if God is for us, who can be against us and how will he not also with him graciously give us all things.

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Brenton
I think it's important not to reduce these truths to, you know, over spiritually nice isms. Sure, we need to have a specific understanding of of what they do and don't mean. And so with that, can you help define these a little pulses who can be against us? And, you know, like, well, there are plenty of people that can be against us.

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Brenton
What what should we be thinking about when we read this verse?

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Matt
Sure. I think that's a great question to ask, and it helps the passage mean more when we do understand and I mentioned this in my sermon a little bit, but Paul writes the letter of the Romans to a group of Christians who are in Rome, and Rome is pretty heated, was not an easy place to be a Christian at the time.

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Matt
The national religion was not Christianity and they were persecuted during Paul's time. But that ramps up considerably in the in the decade to follow and beyond. And so you've got this government that's against the Christians and would be difficult to go to court and you're getting blamed for stuff or just being a Christian or whatever the scenario would be, or just a neighbor who doesn't like you has got it out for you because he knows you're a Christian, that's, you know, a Roman citizen or whatever.

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Matt
So you've got that Roman context, that persecution. You've also have, you know, just I'm thinking of the enemy Satan, who he's he is vicious first or five says he prowls around like a roaring lion looking for somebody to devour. And I will. Most certain it's Revelation 12 talks about Satan being the accuser of the brethren like that's what he does day and night as he's just this accuser.

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Matt
And so he's always somebody we're fighting against. And the spiritual war in some way or some shape or another. And then I even think just taking it even further in application fear of man. I mean, this really is applicable to like everyday life as a Christian, but somebody who doesn't think well of you yet you've done everything in your power to be aboveboard and have integrity and be honest and reconcile.

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Matt
At the end of the day, it's like they're in God's hands. It doesn't matter what they think of you, no matter how important they are. It's like God is for you. They can't be against you. Like that's not really a threat. Or even our own thoughts about ourselves. And we are self condemning and are beating yourself up and God's still for us.

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Matt
So I would just say all of those things help us understand a little bit better.

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Brenton
Yeah, yeah. And I think in the next week or so, in this next section of Romans eight, we're going to we're going to see some of that of what they were what they were actually facing. Yeah.

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Matt
That'll be good.

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Brenton
But yeah, so you would I guess just to kind of clarify, you, he's saying here that ultimately because God is on our side, there is nothing that that can prevail against us.

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Matt
Yeah.

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Brenton
Is that right? Yeah.

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Matt
And in the grand scheme of things like going back to that glorified like God's going to finish the work he started in us, we're going to stand before him on that day, but doesn't mean we're going to experience suffering still. And you're Jesus. I'm not going to quote the exact passage here. We can we can Google it together maybe, or you can later.

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Matt
But but Jesus says in the Gospels, don't fear man, the one that can kill the body. But he's like, point is to God, like the one you need to be fearing is the Lord, because he's the one who can send both body and soul to hell. And but just that like you're going to go through persecution, man is going to do things to you.

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Matt
And but if you have trust in Christ, God is for you and nothing can change that.

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Brenton
The other one I think we find in here is he says, give us all things. Mm hmm. What do you. What? What's he saying here? What are the things? Yeah.

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Matt
So let's just. Everything we would ever desire and want. God's going to just give it to us. Awesome. No, that's not what it means. That's why it's important to read things in context. But if earlier in the chapter, we hear all this great imagery and promise about the spirit and he's with us and he intercedes for us and so it's it's partly the work of the spirit in our life.

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Matt
Whatever we need to finish this Christian life, whatever we need to continue to follow the Lord, fight against sin. God's going to supply that. He's going to he's given us the sun, He's going to finish the deal. He's going to be with us. And in our fight and we're going to prevail. He's going to give us all things that we need to supply those to us.

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Matt
And but also, as I was doing research and I was using some study materials like we talked about earlier, there some great points made that this literally means all things that Jesus will inherit one day when he comes into his kingdom in fullness as the rightful heir, you know, the firstborn in God's family here. Work, however, is with him, as I said earlier in Chapter eight.

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Matt
And so everything Jesus inherits from the father, we're going to hear it from the father, which is pretty wild to think about. But that's that's what that means as well, is God's given you his most precious gift, the Son. So how is he not also graciously and I love you, says graciously in there. It's not like forcefully, you know, like maybe graciously.

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Matt
You see God's undeserved favor towards us in this all things. And it really is that we do not earn this. We do not deserve this. But this is in God's heart, in this plan, that he's going to graciously give us the son he has. He's going to graciously give us all things. Yeah.

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Brenton
He's he's giving us all the things that we need for our sanctification and our glorification. Right?

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Matt
Yeah. You summarized everything I said in 3 minutes and 3 seconds. That's perfect.

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Brenton
Awesome. Okay. One of the things you said that I thought was interesting was you said no other religion or worldview can boast about how God is for us and has spared nothing to prove that. Can you can you expand on that? So how does Christianity differ from other religions regarding God's disposition toward his creation?

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Matt
Yeah, so I'm not an expert here either. I'm really speaking from a lot of my my own experience of talking with people from a muslim background or a Buddhist background or I don't want to get into Mormonism right now, but just people I'll start with me from a muslim background. Yeah, that, uh, some was a muslim. They're, they're very, uh, they're very key on that.

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Matt
God is transcendent above us and like, they acknowledge Jesus as that as a prophet, but not as the Son of God, not as God incarnate who has come down to us. They said God would never do that. He would never stoop that low. And it just that alone is just as is heart wrenching, because that's like the foundation of the Christian faith.

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Matt
Is that in the beginning was the word in the words with God, the word was God. That's the beginning of the Gospel of John. Then verse 14, The Gospel of John, and the word became flesh and dwelt among us. That's who our God is. I know Islam is like this, but also a lot of other religions. But it's just I've got to do my share of goodness and I've got to my good deeds have to outweigh my bad deeds, and that's how God will accept me.

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Matt
And that is shaky ground. That is terrifying that that's what the end of our life looks like. And that's where things point in to. But that's not how Christianity works at all. It's our good works come as a result of the overflow of our gratefulness for what God has done for us and Jesus and and also good works.

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Matt
If it's all about our good works that way in our bad deeds, that just creates a lot of dysfunction, a lot of pride. And the Apostle Paul throws that on its head and Ephesians two and he says, You're not saved by work so that nobody can boast. But it's a free gift. Yeah. So yeah, just the Christian has this very unique perspective about who are God is who we are, what He has done for us.

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Matt
And this guarantee to that were he for New as he predestined us, he called us. He justified as he glorified us. God is for us and we can't be removed from that. That reality.

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Brenton
Yeah, I'll second that. I'm I'm definitely not a an expert or a scholar in this area, but I, I think I think it is important to realize the difference between what Christianity says and so many other religions when it comes to this. You're right about Islam that, you know, it's it would be unbelievable, unbelievable for them that that God would enter into flesh, that like that would that would taint God in a way.

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Brenton
Right. I mean, you have and like not only Islam, but you have you have religions that don't even have a personal god. There is no relationship with like Hinduism. Those are right. Those are gods that are they want to be pleased. And then maybe they'll give you something.

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Matt
Yeah. Into that's a good about the relationship thing because there's also with Islam in my conversations, I don't learn this from talking to a guy one time is actually at the bean counter in Burlington. But he said, you know, we don't call Godfather. God is not our father. And but what's so comforting about the Christian faith is that is exactly who God is.

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Matt
But that's not something the Apostle Paul made up like this would be a nice thing I could kind of say about God, Jesus literally, he was the one that delivers this revelation. He is our father. They say you need to pray our father in heaven. You know our Abba father, he says in the Garden of Gethsemane. And so I mean that it's just so much better when you think about it like that, that we are literally we really are orphaned.

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Matt
We have a father who loves us. He has sent the son the diner place. And if we believe in him and his death and resurrection, we are reconciled and that's why we say it's good news.

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Brenton
Yeah, yeah. And and I think that this this idea of, you know, God being our father, it's so easy to take and take for granted. And I mean, we look yeah, we look out at different religions that couldn't even fathom that, that being the case with, with the God that they, that they worship. But I mean how, how crazy of us to take that for granted that that the God of the universe lets us call him father.

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Matt
Yeah. No absolutely. And yeah, it, and it, it takes some time to let that sink in and not just be something that coin phrase we say, but that's the truest reality of what it means to be a Christian, is God is our father.

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Brenton
You talked about Christ raining in heaven currently. Could you expand a little on on what that means? What does it mean that Christ is reigning?

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Matt
Yeah. So Jesus is not currently present physically bodily here on Earth. He commissioned his disciples after he was resurrected and he ascended into heaven. And so Jesus in heaven right now and our passage even says that the writing of the Father and so Jesus at the end of the Great Commission, all authority in heaven and on Earth has been given unto me.

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Matt
And then that's why he has the right and the power to send them out to go make disciples of all nations. And so he has that power, and he's writing from heaven right now over all the cosmos, above everything else. He this is the way I was thinking about it and kind of rehearsing it this, this week is in the context of the Romans.

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Matt
831 to 34. There's a few things that come out like who who shall bring any charge against God's elect. It is God who justifies who is the one who who is to condemn Jesus Christ. He was the one who died. And I was thinking about, okay, what's that do with Jesus reign and how important that is for these verses.

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Matt
And Jesus, He sits on the highest throne in the whole universe. No one is higher than Jesus. No earthly ruler. Governor, President King. He's higher than them all. And so there's literally no one that can bring an accusation or a charge or a judgment against us that's higher than the position that Jesus has. And Jesus has justified us and says that we're not guilty and we're fully righteous in the eyes of God that's been declared over us.

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Matt
And so Jesus reign is really important in that aspect, that he's that he is the highest, He is the ultimate. He has all 30.

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Brenton
Yeah, yeah. The when, when you were mentioning that on Sunday, it just reminded me of Hebrews and Hebrews is, is just full of oh sure. Comparing Jesus now to, to, you know, the old, the old covenant and really given a lot of reasons of why wages is now better than than what we had before. But in in Hebrews to the the author says you made him for a little while lower than the angels and so that that there is like his condescension his his incarnation.

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Brenton
Yeah and then it says you have crowned him with glory and honor, putting everything in subjection under his feet. And so you see like this, this transition, this ascension to where he's at now, reigning with everything in subjection under his feet. Mm hmm. And I think Hebrews is really good at, like, talking through, you know, it really doesn't make a lot of sense outside of the old covenant.

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Brenton
If you if you have no knowledge of the old covenant, it's not going to make any sense to you. But there's so many parallels of like intercession and and what Christ's role is now and how he fulfills so much of that. And we'll get into that a little bit. The next question. But Hebrews is is such a good place to go for like Christ's role and what he's what he has done for us.

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Matt
Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. To, to, to the hundredth power. Yeah. It's, it's the.

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Brenton
You also mentioned Christ's intercessory role and I think we talked about this a little last week with Chris, the kind of the difference between Christ's intercessory role and the Spirit's because they both have fairly distinct roles in that. But both are essential. But I think one thing we were talking about earlier was the almost caricature of of how Christians can think about that role, even if they may maybe haven't put words to it.

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Brenton
But, you know, I think it's not uncommon for us to look at like the father as as the angry father that's displeased with with his people. And then and Christ is saying, no, no, like I already paid for this and like, trying to protect us. Right. Can you kind of just talk through what what that role actually actually looks like?

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Brenton
And, you know, if that isn't an accurate depiction.

00;26;32;29 - 00;26;56;23
Matt
Yeah. So, yeah, Christ being our intercessors standing in the presence of the Father on our behalf, he's not doing that because God's still has it out for us. And in his wrath, he's just like arms to so many sinners. Still, if you look at our passage, the father has not even spared the son like the father has given us.

00;26;56;23 - 00;27;32;19
Matt
The son for God so love the world that he gave his only begotten son to reconcile the world to himself, whoever he believes will have eternal life. And so the father has set his love upon us. He is the one who, for new us. He is the one who predestined us. He's the one you called us. And so if you think about who the Lord is, our God is Triune one God three in person and God the Father is not ticked off, angry, and Jesus is just trying to, you know, dissuade is his anger towards us.

00;27;32;22 - 00;27;53;26
Matt
It's the way he is. Set it up that the only way we can be in his presence because he is so holy, is we must be in the sun. We must be come into his presence through the mediation of the sun. And so he's put the son, he's given us the son and now the sun is interceding for us continuously.

00;27;53;28 - 00;28;28;28
Matt
And when the father sees us, he doesn't see us by ourselves. He sees us in Christ. And Christ is perfect and Christ is completely holy in sinless and that's who we will one day be. And God has already started that process of sanctification by His spirit. But we're not there yet. Yeah. And so, yeah, that's, that's how I would kind of answer that question.

00;28;29;01 - 00;29;01;01
Brenton
It makes me think of the hymn My hope is building and built on nothing less than that last verse says, dressed in his righteousness alone, faultless to stand before the throne. So that that is Christ's role as intercessor in our justification. But I think, you know, we see other other ways that he intercedes for us to John 17 is the high priestly prayer where we we actually see Jesus in a work through this a little bit.

00;29;01;01 - 00;29;30;11
Brenton
A couple of months ago. And it was just struck by, you know, Jesus is praying for us there, but God God is actually praying for his people like that. That's such a such a crazy thought that, you know, going back to the personal relationship and that and other other religions like that's not something you see anywhere else that the God is actually interceding for for us on our behalf.

00;29;30;16 - 00;29;52;08
Matt
In the high priestly prayer, Jesus says, The glory that you have given me, I have given to them that they may be one even as we are one I and them, you and me, that they may become perfectly one so that the world may know. And this is the part I want to emphasize The world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

00;29;52;10 - 00;30;18;22
Matt
So that just sums up right there that God guide loves us like He loves Jesus. And I mean, I can't even get my head around that. But if you go back to Romans eight again, that's that is what Romans eight is, is mapping out to us. We have been given a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but we've been given a spirit of adoption in whom we cry out now, Abba Father.

00;30;18;24 - 00;30;36;20
Matt
And we're not the ones pursuing him like like I want to call you father. And no, like he's put it in his heart that we are going to be adopted and we are going to be reconciled to him because he is a father and he desires for us to be to be called his his his sons and his daughters.

00;30;36;23 - 00;30;41;26
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. He in in no way owed us this relationship.

00;30;41;27 - 00;30;44;08
Matt
Oh, sure. Yeah, absolutely it.

00;30;44;08 - 00;30;45;16
Brenton
Is. And this is all of grace.

00;30;45;16 - 00;30;48;13
Matt
No one could have foreseen this. Yeah. Yeah.

00;30;48;15 - 00;31;01;22
Brenton
Okay. Matt. Well, I am grateful for your the preparation this week in your, the the knowledge and wisdom you brought to it. So thanks for coming on here and talking through it.

00;31;01;25 - 00;31;05;03
Matt
Absolutely. Do the Rocky impersonations next time.

00;31;05;05 - 00;31;13;20
Brenton
Yeah, I'll. I think we might have to have a bonus episode. All right. Thanks. Appreciate it. We will talk to you next week.