Episode 34: Suffering & Glory, Part 2

00;00;02;17 - 00;00;22;20
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further and Britain. GRAHAM And I'm here again with Chris Carr. How's it going?

00;00;22;22 - 00;00;33;02
Chris
Good. I'm really excited to talk. About what? Very well. Maybe my favorite passage from Romans and hope everybody maybe feels similarly after Sunday.

00;00;33;05 - 00;00;55;16
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah, I think there's some there's some really important things to get into in versus 26 to 30. I think the there's there's a whole section about the spirit, which I'm excited to talk about, but then there's the golden chain or Redemption or Golden Train of salvation that we'll get to at the end. That, yeah, is super important to understand.

00;00;55;17 - 00;01;10;07
Brenton
So let's start out with the conversation about the Holy Spirit and, and specifically his role in our prayer life. What what is his role in our prayer life?

00;01;10;09 - 00;01;45;16
Chris
Well, I think from this passage, it is in many ways praying for us, praying with us and helping us to pray. So we see in the passage that he groans like we groan, which means that he's identifying with us in our suffering and our difficulty. And the word that Paul uses there for weakness is kind of a general word, which so it's not just what we might think about suffering, but just any type of weakness that we have.

00;01;45;16 - 00;02;20;07
Chris
And specifically our our weakness in not knowing what to pray for. And I think that even includes not even maybe at times knowing how to pray or even being able to pray that he is the one who is making the desires and the long means of our heart bringing them before God. But then also maybe it's a two way street a little bit, not only from from us to God, but God back down to us.

00;02;20;07 - 00;02;58;17
Chris
And in the sense that he is sponsors inner city with us according to the will of God, which is causing then I believe, God's will to become actually effective in our lives. And so I think there's some mystery here, at least there is for me. How exactly that. Yeah, that works. I mentioned this briefly in a message, but when in particular he was suffering, it can be really hard to pray, to know what to pray for, to to struggle to relieve him.

00;02;58;19 - 00;03;30;03
Chris
I think at times to wonder, is God listening? Does God care? And this passage encourages us that, yes, the father is listening. Yes, the father cares. And we know that because he's given us the spirit to be be with us and to hopefully, I think, ultimately make our praying affective in bringing God's will about in each and every situation, the circumstances that we face in life.

00;03;30;06 - 00;04;05;14
Brenton
Yeah, that's helpful. I think one one question, as I was kind of going through this that I had was, you know, we we typically attribute the intercessory role to Christ to, to the son. And I think somehow we need to we need to kind of pass that out of who who's doing what. And I think the I mean, we see examples in scripture, even in the gospels of Jesus, like interceding for us, like praying for his people.

00;04;05;18 - 00;04;22;22
Brenton
Mm hmm. But now we see here that the spirit has his own role in in, in intercessory work. And so can you kind of shed any light on on how that how that relationship works?

00;04;22;24 - 00;04;52;11
Chris
Sure. Well, in verse 34, Romans says that Christ is at the right hand of God and is interceding for us. And I think that that has to do with really the application of our justification. There's there's no condemnation of those who are in Christ, and that is the intercessory work of Jesus. I don't know exactly how that works.

00;04;52;14 - 00;05;43;02
Chris
Is he pleading for us before the father in terms of I've paid for that sin? You have given them my righteousness and exactly how that works. But I do think it it's primarily, if not solely in relationship to what Christ has accomplished for us through his life, death and resurrection. I think then when we talk about the Holy Spirit, it is you know, the Holy Spirit is the one who is physically present with us and that He is the one who comforts and encourages us and is called the helper.

00;05;43;03 - 00;06;14;08
Chris
That's one of the names that Jesus gives him. And in the Gospel of John. And he certainly does that by helping us to understand Scripture, illuminate Scripture, helping us to apply it to our lives. I think he also does it by, as we see again in our passage, just interceding before the father for us, when we just struggle to know exactly what we should be praying for.

00;06;14;08 - 00;06;15;25
Chris
He prays it for us.

00;06;15;27 - 00;06;41;26
Brenton
Yeah. The first example you gave of of Christ's intercessory work. I think we see that in first John to where where John was saying, I'm writing these things to you so that you may not sin, but if anyone does and we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous, He is the perpetuation for persons, not for ours, but also the sins of the whole world.

00;06;41;29 - 00;06;54;24
Brenton
And I think that, yeah, his role is having to do with with, with our justification, right as he sits at the right hand of the father.

00;06;54;26 - 00;07;15;27
Chris
Maybe we could talk about it in terms of Jesus interceding in regards to our justification. And the Holy Spirit is in regard to our sanctification. Maybe that's the best way to put it. Probably an oversimplification for sure, but a good way to think about it in those terms. Okay.

00;07;15;29 - 00;07;27;14
Brenton
With that some would would take the the line groaning is too deep for words as an example of speaking in tongues. What do you think about that?

00;07;27;16 - 00;07;53;00
Chris
Yes, there certainly are people who would view this text in that way, but I don't think that that is actually what Paul's talking about here for three reasons. One, first Corinthians 12, Paul makes it clear that speaking in tongues is a gift that only some Christians receive. And here it's something that's true for all believers too. The phrase too deep for words literally means wordless.

00;07;53;02 - 00;08;22;06
Chris
It's just one word in Greek, and it means that what's going on here is in Audible in. And as verse 27 makes it clear, it happens in our hearts, not with our lips. And three, it's not something we do, but rather the spirit does. I think what's what's going on here? The best I can understand is that in our hearts the spirit intercedes before the Father for us.

00;08;22;08 - 00;08;55;25
Chris
And so I don't think Paul's talking about, you know, something that we speak audibly, but rather the the spirit speaks in turn of we in our hearts to the to the father. And you asked me how all of that works. Exactly. I think that there's some mystery in it. Or maybe we'll find out one day. But I do think we should take great encouragement from this and I think there's a lot more encouragement if we understand in the way I explain than in speaking in tongues.

00;08;56;00 - 00;09;00;19
Chris
Sure. Especially in regards to suffering. So, yeah, Yeah.

00;09;00;21 - 00;09;31;06
Brenton
So the issue of foreknowledge in verse 29 can be contentious for some people. Some would say that foreknowledge here means that God looked down the corridors of time and saw who would believe. And those are the people that he for knew and he predestined. Others would say that the God's foreknowledge here is more of an active role. So where do you land on that and why is it important to to have a stance there?

00;09;31;08 - 00;09;42;00
Chris
I feel like turn this around on you and saying, where do you land and why is that important? But and I would love to hear your input on, you know.

00;09;42;02 - 00;09;42;23
Brenton
But you answer.

00;09;43;00 - 00;10;22;18
Chris
Yeah, sure. Well, I think or at least I hope I made it clear on Sunday that foreknowledge means more than God simply knows who I believe. Of course, God knows who's going to believe. He's omniscient, so he knows everything but the word for knowledge means to choose beforehand. So it doesn't simply mean, you know, mental cognition of of facts, but rather that God chose and he chose out of out of love.

00;10;22;18 - 00;11;06;06
Chris
So in the Bible, when it talks about God knowing people, it talks about in terms of God setting his love on people in a personal way, bringing them into relationship with him. And so another way we could render for knowledge is for love. God for love does. He decided to set his love upon us. And one of the things I could add here is if if it was simply about God knowing something about us, he wouldn't have been able to know that we have placed our faith in him because none of us would have placed our faith in him.

00;11;06;09 - 00;11;30;09
Chris
He actually had to cause that to come about. I hope that makes sense to everybody. If it was simply like God looking down the corridors of time for people who chose him, he would see no one because no one would choose him. Because we're Ephesians two dead in our trespasses and sins. And so that's one of the reasons why he's important.

00;11;30;11 - 00;12;07;12
Chris
Another reason why it's important is because, again, if it rests it on us, then that means that we would have to do something to earn our salvation. Then you get into a work space. So salvation in some way. Now there are those who would who would argue that for sure. But one of the great things that I love about this unbreakable or golden chain of salvation is that it shows that this is all God's initiative, that it's all because of him.

00;12;07;12 - 00;12;31;04
Chris
And that actually should be really encouraging to us because it takes the pressure of the responsibility off of us to try to earn or mirror our salvation. Now, that doesn't mean that we don't have a responsibility to respond to the to the gospel or anything like that. We'll get to that here later on in. ROMANS But it does mean that we.

00;12;31;07 - 00;13;01;09
Chris
Well, let me put it this way. If salvation rested on something that I had to do, like it was on my shoulders, I would I'd be in big trouble and this is so encouraging because it's not it's something that God will possibly say or something that God chose to do, plan to do, and then actually did it. And not only in the present, in the past, in the present, but but in the future too.

00;13;01;10 - 00;13;05;15
Chris
Like from God's perspective, it's already a done deal.

00;13;05;17 - 00;13;34;18
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. I think the given the like what we've been talking about for a while now in Romans about total depravity or total inability, I think that if we actually take that doctrine seriously, this you're right this has to be God had to for know us in an active sense and not just knowing who we were. And I think that that can be shown through a few different ways.

00;13;34;18 - 00;13;57;16
Brenton
And even scripture that we're familiar with, such as like Matthew seven, where Jesus is saying on that day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name, and then I will declare to them, I never knew you depart from me.

00;13;57;18 - 00;14;24;18
Brenton
And so that like that's a good example of of course he knew them. Like he he knew who they were. He knew them intimately, more intimately than than we know people, but he didn't know them in a active, loving relationship way. Jeremiah one five Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I consecrated you.

00;14;24;18 - 00;15;00;24
Brenton
And this is. Yeah, he, he, he knows everybody. But, but the way that Scripture usually uses that word is, is not, you know, how how a lot of people want to present that. Right. The other thing I think as far as like you're right, if this was up to us, we would not we would not complete it. But but the other side of that, like, I think that evangelism, we we can have hope in evangelizing other people because it's not our responsibility.

00;15;00;25 - 00;15;13;11
Brenton
It's not it's not our job to change people's hearts. We we have a job to do and we do it faithfully. And we trust that it's a work that that Christ is going to finish. And so.

00;15;13;12 - 00;15;14;06
Chris
Sure.

00;15;14;08 - 00;15;16;22
Brenton
In that, you know, Christ, people come to him.

00;15;16;29 - 00;16;00;13
Chris
And so well, it also gives us hope because if God didn't choose people for salvation and predestined them to be conformed to the image of his son, nobody would ever believe. I mean, there are there are some who would say, like this doctrine of foreknowledge, actually, you know, would give us reason why would we, you know, God and share the gospel and but no, it actually is the reason that we share the gospel is because God has chosen people to be saved.

00;16;00;13 - 00;16;24;07
Chris
And so we can go out with confidence knowing that as we we share the gospel, that, sure, not everybody's going to believe, but it's very likely that some are going to believe. Mm hmm. And again and you're right. Is it really the linchpin in all of this is the total inability. I think our decision on that will determine which way, which way we go with that.

00;16;24;07 - 00;16;47;18
Chris
You know, if you if we we truly believe that people are that in our trespasses and sins and the God of this world has blind in the mind of unbelievers so they can't see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. If we truly believe that, then we recognize that God has to be active and it has to be in His sovereign grace that people are come to salvation.

00;16;47;20 - 00;17;17;12
Brenton
Yeah. So why? You know, I think that these these doctrines that we're talking about automatically get a lot of pushback. I think a lot of people are, I don't know, weary of accepting these things. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that like things like election or, you know, predestination, these words are just kind of I don't know.

00;17;17;14 - 00;17;19;05
Brenton
GROSS To people.

00;17;19;07 - 00;18;11;17
Chris
GROSS I think that there are a couple of reasons. One, I think it's simply because we've been taught differently, and it's kind of ingrained in us. And so another reason is that we just not been taught at all on it. And so it just sounds maybe, maybe wrong to us, I think ultimately is because it's offensive to our pride, because when we have to come face to face of the fact that, again, I just keep going back to this, but I do so because I think it's just absolutely key.

00;18;11;19 - 00;18;44;12
Chris
We were dead interest vessels and since we were without God and without hope in the world and there was nothing that we could do to to change that we were completely hopeless, lost and we could contribute nothing to our salvation, nothing except for our sin. And that that's humiliating. It really, really is. And we were specially in America, Western culture, but especially America.

00;18;44;12 - 00;19;13;29
Chris
We like to make it on our own. We like to think that we can do it here in the Midwest. It's maybe even even worse. Like we're going to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. We can go out on our own. We don't need need anybody. And so this thought that we can't do it at all, you know, not only can we not make it to God, we're running the opposite way as fast as we can.

00;19;13;29 - 00;19;35;15
Chris
And unless he runs us down and takes and in many ways takes us, you know, dragging, dragging us kicking and screaming, we're then we're not going to be saved. Well, that yeah, doesn't even feel good as I say it.

00;19;35;18 - 00;20;07;20
Brenton
Yeah, I think that's, that's definitely one. So but I would say the other side that I've kind of run into in opposition to, to this is I think probably coming from a good place of, you know people have family members that aren't saved and they want nothing more than to see these people come to come to salvation. But when they hear these kind of things, they they hear that it's out of their control.

00;20;07;20 - 00;20;17;02
Brenton
They they have no they there's no convincing someone if if it's if it comes back to Sharon who got elected to be saved.

00;20;17;02 - 00;20;48;26
Chris
Yeah, I think we'll probably get into this more when we get to chapter nine here before too long. But we should certainly have a lot of compassion here and all of us have unbelieving, you know, family and friends. And so that can be a painful thought to think that maybe they that someone is not been chosen by God.

00;20;48;26 - 00;21;33;05
Chris
And I think part of what we have to rely on here or go back to is that God is perfectly sovereign, but he's also perfectly good and he always does what is right and just and that we can lean on his his not just sovereignty, but his goodness and take great encouragement and hope in that. Yeah, well it doesn't, you know, answer all of our, you know, concerns and that I do think we have to go back and and try to rest in that.

00;21;33;08 - 00;22;00;22
Brenton
Yeah. Verse 28 says All things work together for good. Mm hmm. And I really appreciated how you brought out. What the good is that that Paul's talking about here? I think it would be, you know, easy for us to read that and think, well, good has to be the end of suffering, right? Mm hmm. Whatever. Whatever we're going through now, the good thing would be for this to stop.

00;22;01;00 - 00;22;01;21
Chris
Sure.

00;22;01;23 - 00;22;28;25
Brenton
But what he's actually talking about is conformity to Christ like that. That is that is what the what the good is since our our, you know, kind of natural. Like what we want to read into this passage is the end of suffering. How how is this better news for us that the what he's talking about is conformity to Christ and not just what our desires are?

00;22;28;28 - 00;22;57;25
Chris
Well, here's the reality for all of us, is that suffering is inevitable and inescapable. Yeah. And so obviously, we we look at this passage and we want it to say that all things work together for good and that that good is what we think of in terms of good, which largely means health, wealth, comfort, safety, all of those kind of things.

00;22;57;27 - 00;23;28;16
Chris
Life going the way that we dreamed it would go and, you know, two things there. One, that's not the good that God has in views we've already highlighted. But but the other one is is like just experience tells us that that's life is not going to go the way that that we want it to to go in might for for a period of time and yet there are going to be pain there's going to be there are there's going to be loss.

00;23;28;16 - 00;24;04;10
Chris
And even if you have comparatively a really good life, you're going to die one day. And most people die. I mean, it's a real downer here, but most people die in really difficult ways. Hmm. Painful ways. And so if what this helps us with is like that, even in our pain and our suffering and our difficulty as as followers of Christ, God has something really, really good that he is doing for us.

00;24;04;13 - 00;24;29;29
Chris
Yeah. And that this, this really should give us great assurance and should give us great confidence to be able to move into the world and to be able to to endure the most difficult things in life with in some ways, joy. And I didn't say happiness. I said joy that God is God's up to something really, really good.

00;24;29;29 - 00;24;55;00
Chris
And this is going to be for my for my best. No, and I didn't get to this too much on Sunday. But but really the question comes down to us is, do we really believe that conformity to Christ is the greatest good that there is? That's really what it comes down to. But I would I would submit that that is where the greatest hope is, is found in the midst of a fallen world.

00;24;55;02 - 00;25;15;21
Chris
I love this 1830 we've been in the last couple of weeks because it helps us to get the big picture. Maybe we might call it a cosmic picture of what's going on in the world. And what God is doing in the cosmic picture is that the world is broken. The world is a mess. It's it's in many ways getting worse and going to get worse.

00;25;15;21 - 00;25;48;26
Chris
I know, you know, there's different views on that and all that, too. But it's wearing down is wearing out. And we are wearing down and wearing out along with it. And we that's should be the expectation because that's what has happened because of the fall. But in the midst of that, there is great hope. And the great hope is not that everything is going to work out the way that we want to in life is going to be, you know, daisies and roses and nice and easy for us, but rather that God is giving us the best thing he could give us.

00;25;48;26 - 00;26;26;21
Chris
And that is his son. And in more than his son, he's actually making us like his son. And one day he's going to take us into an eternity where all of our pain and sorrow and difficulty will be gone, and that even more the difficulties and the suffering that we we face in this life are actually part of us, part of him bringing us into that future glory, that there's a ways I mean, we go to first Peter, we talks about how suffering is is necessary because God is refined, uses it to refine us.

00;26;26;21 - 00;27;04;08
Chris
He He uses it to make us into greater people. And I want everybody to hear God is is those who love God. God is making us great. Now, that's not great necessarily the way we think of greatness in America. It's not the ticktock, social media, sports, world, greatness. Greatness is greatness in terms of character. And I would say as well here and I'll wrap up with this, but that's that is when we are actually going to be the most joyful and the most content.

00;27;04;10 - 00;27;26;04
Chris
It's not when we have stuff or comfort or safety, it's when we have the character of Christ and God. The great thing about really the Bible, a whole but this passage is that it tells us that God even takes the worst things that happen to us, and He He makes us into those kind of people.

00;27;26;10 - 00;28;05;01
Brenton
Yeah, Yeah. I think that that can be a challenge. As we wrap up today's, do we see conformity to Christ as a good thing? I mean, is that is that our highest desire? And I think that that's that's something to think over because the more that we're sanctified, I think the more the spirit works in our lives, the more we will want that as an end that we we want, that we want our lives to look more like Christ and not, you know, whatever else we chase in our life.

00;28;05;03 - 00;28;15;24
Brenton
So good. That was a helpful conversation. Covered a lot of ground, and I'm sure we'll be back to many of these topics. So I appreciate it. Chris, We will talk to you guys next week.