Episode 30: No Condemnation

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Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to episode 30 of Further. This week we have Grandpa Carr here.

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Chris
Welcome.

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Brenton
And also congratulations.

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Chris
Yeah. Thank you. And something I should have mentioned. I really don't need any suggestions for what my grandchild will be calling me.

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Brenton
So you have that planned out yet?

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Chris
I don't, but people seem to. To like to offer suggestions and I am my grandchild will figure that out on our own, I think. Although the child's mother might have something to say about that too, I'm sure.

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Brenton
Yeah, I can see that. Well, great. Yeah. Good to have you back preaching this week, and it's exciting. Time to start through Romans eight. How do you how do you think the first one went?

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Chris
I don't know. Fun, though. The one, the best one that answer that. But it seemed to go pretty well. I've gotten pretty good feedback so far. I enjoyed it for sure. And I think if you can't enjoy preaching that passage, maybe you shouldn't be preaching somewhere.

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Brenton
Fair point. All right, let's jump in. So you said that the word condemnation in the way that Paul was using it at least means guilt and punishment. And Paul is saying that now guilt and punishment for our sins no longer exists. So for a lot of us, a natural response to our sin is is a feeling of guilt.

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Brenton
Is that a proper response? And if if not, what should our response be?

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Chris
Absolutely. Feeling experiencing guilt when we sin is a is a proper response. I think really the question is, is what are we going to do with it and are we going to apply the gospel or to it and to remember that there's no condemnation verse person because Jesus has taken it. And so in response then to our guilt less confess it, let's receive the Lord's, I guess, forgiveness, a new or at least remind ourselves that that is the case and then use that as a motivation.

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Chris
As I ended the message with to to seek to put this in to death, which we're going to talk about more this week. But I think, you know, we have a choice. Like when we feel guilty, are we going to take that condemnation and are we going to run from the Lord or are we going to run to him?

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Chris
And it makes all the difference in the world. I do think we've got to be careful that we're like, okay, we should no longer ever feel guilty. You know, that that's that's problematic because that can lead to we've talked about into Nominalism before. It doesn't matter how I live anymore. So I'm free from guilt. Right? And so no.

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Chris
And we've got to remind ourselves that Jesus died to pay for for for that sin. And because of that, it's serious and we need to turn away from it. But we can do so in freedom, knowing that really we've already been forgiven in Christ.

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Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. I think it's important as we talk through kind of all these sociological facts that we we understand that what we're talking about is a legal declaration in a lot of ways. And so the just because the guilt has been taken away from God's perspective doesn't mean that we cease to be guilty. Right. And in a in a very real way, we're still guilty of our sin.

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Brenton
It's just that the view from God's perspective, the one that matters, we we have Christ's righteousness now.

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Chris
Absolutely. Yeah. At some point, probably not today. I mean, we could talk about the whole subject of shame to and, you know, there Jesus also took the shame of our sin on the cross. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be ashamed when when we sin either. And now shame can be be harmful to use and overuse, or it can be toxic for sure.

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Chris
But that doesn't mean that all shame is bad. And you know, today in our world, there's a lot of shameless behavior and we could do with a little more more shame in some ways. There's a healthy what I'm saying is there is a an unhealthy shame for sure. And I really would like to talk about that at some point, maybe do a whole nother episode.

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Chris
But there is a healthy shame, too, is like. And it goes right along with guilt.

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Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. And I think in some ways it kind of comes back to your your example of the make it fake and medicated. Like what? What are we doing with that shame and guilt from our from our sin? Is it is it causing us to go toward Christ or is it causing us to go further inside and have these unhealthy reactions to it?

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Brenton
Mm hmm. So, yeah, I think that was that was a helpful way to to lay that out. And I think we're probably all familiar with, you know, kind of filling those those gaps or those feelings in our life with things that make us forget it. I think that's a cycle that we get into pretty easily.

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Chris
Yeah, I think yeah, I think we try to to numb the pain, the guilt, the shame, the feelings of not good enough of unworthiness that we all we all wrestle with and that, you know, came about initially because of the fall and now are compounded by how we treat one another and our experiences in life. And of course, the accuser and the evil one.

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Chris
You know, he's literally one of the of Satan in the Bible. He's the accuser of the if he's the or King James of brethren, but of the of believers. And so that's what he does. He accuses us and and so we're going to have to to wrestle with those things. But like he said, that's why Romans eight one is so, so important is we just got to go back to that truth and not just speak the truth to ourselves or memorize the verse, but learn to work it into our our minds, Into our hearts.

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Brenton
Yeah. And maybe that's maybe that's something to talk about. Here is how how do we I mean, the are proper response to these things after feeling that guilt and shame like should be repentance. Right? So how, how can we and maybe we have talked about this before of just forgetting, but how can we kind of make that a spiritual practice where we when we start feeling that that conviction of the spirit, that our first reaction should just be repentance instead of hiding?

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Chris
Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a big topic. I think where I would begin is that we just kind of get to determine in our minds that when the Spirit convicts us, that we're going to we're going to do something with it, and we're not going to you know, it's really easy, at least for me, is to rationalize that's not a big deal.

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Chris
There are, you know, oh, repent or confess that later or, you know, I've got other stuff to do right now. I just kind of put it off. And that is almost always going to end up you're not actually going to repent because it will never feel you'll never feel more conviction than you do in that moment. You know, it just will it may be in that moment that you're speaking to you, but if you don't respond, that that will subside and you'll just kind of go on.

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Chris
And so just practicing that discipline and and it's not like you got to get down on your knees and put on sackcloth and ashes and even necessarily take a lot of time, as well as being being sensitive to the spirit. And in Galatians five, Paul talks about walking in step with the spirit. So you just think about that.

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Chris
We're walking day to day and like and when we do sin and when we we are convicted about something, we're going to we're going to speak to him about it. We're going to we're going to confess and maybe we'll need to do more work later on. But even just, you know, yes, I hear you and I recognize that I need to turn from this and I'm going to seek to do that.

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Chris
And that can even be, you know, a 32nd conversation. So I would start there. I think, you know, we could go on and on on this. But having people in your life that you're confessing to, that's James. Chapter five is a is a key part. But it's also, I think for so many of us and I was even the spirit was actually convicting me about this this morning is like getting back to a regular habit of of times during the day where I just pause from the busyness of of life and work and take time to say, okay, well, let me let me focus on the Lord directly right here.

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Chris
Instead of just running through the whole day, it may sound strange, somebody who's in ministry, you know, you're working for the Lord all day, but it's really easy to to to do for the Lord instead of be with the Lord. Yeah. And so, you know, just taking those times of year I to take a couple more can be a couple of minutes and just going to like, okay, I'm going to be in, in the spirit presence and I'm going to seek to listen listen to him here.

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Chris
I think it's a it's a good habit to get into as well.

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Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. Intentionality. I think there's there's probably many different ways of doing this, but just making sure we're making that important in our lives, making sure we're we're given that time for. For confession.

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Chris
Yeah. How many of us and I'm guilty of this, you know, we never gone through a whole day and and we never really, truly think of. Yeah. About the spirit and got tons of things going on and again, maybe even doing things for God, but not really communing or communicating with him. And it's really easy to do that.

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Chris
And if you do, then this confession and turning from sin is is probably not going to happen either.

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Brenton
Yeah, Yeah. We get busy for sure. Verse three says, By sending his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh. And I think it might be helpful to discuss the incarnation a bit here. You briefly touched on this on Sunday, but could you explain what Paul means by Christ coming in the likeness of sinful flesh?

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Chris
Yeah, it's a great question.

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Chris
It's a little bit of a complicated verse there. The way that Paul writes it, or maybe I should say it can can get confusing and we can go the wrong way with it. And I tried quickly to, as I said, thread the needle, I think is what Paul is trying to do there. But what it means is that Jesus did take on human, human flesh.

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Chris
So he did become a human being, a fully human being, just like you and I are. And he wasn't, you know, part God and part man. He was fully God and fully man. He is still today, fully God and fully man, 100% each. And yet Jesus is different than every other human being in that he didn't have sinful flesh.

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Chris
So this week we're going to talk about the flesh a lot and what Paul means about the flesh. He's a sinful flesh here, verse three. The rest of the time he's just basically going to say flesh, but he says sinful flesh. Here to talk about our our nature that is corrupt. That is, as he will go on to say, hostile to God and that is, you know, basically directed by the values of the world.

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Chris
And Jesus, his his flesh was not corrupt, His flesh was perfect. His flesh was without sin. And so he's he's he's one of us, but he is different from us in the fact that his nature, his flesh, is not corrupted by sin.

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Brenton
Yeah, that's a good explanation. Yeah. I don't think I have anything to add there. Good. Jeff.

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Chris
It was a long and roundabout exhalation, maybe, but it's important. It's one that you can really. You know, there's been this has been one of the biggest controversies and doctrinal disputes in the history, literally in the history of the church is the nature of Christ. And so it's important that we that we get it right. It's essential that we get it right.

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Chris
And so Jesus was in every respect like we are. Hebrews says this, yet without sin. And so he he experienced everything that we did, temptation, he experience, obviously physical pain and suffering, emotional pain and difficulty. And and yet the one thing he didn't experience is he didn't experience actually sinning and the consequences of his own personal sin now experience the consequences of arson.

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Chris
But Jesus did not experience at all the the consequences of his own sin. And so it's important. And the reasons this is so important is because God required a perfect sacrifice. So so Jesus had to be God because only God is perfect, but Jesus had to be human because we needed a human to die in our place. Only another human would suffice.

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Chris
And so Paul is, you know, he's trying to get both of those things across very succinctly there.

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Brenton
Yeah, yeah. Just Christology in general is so central to what we believe. And even the take it from the apologetics side where trying to defend Christianity against Islam or whatever, where they would kind of make a an emphatic point that that if, if Jesus was flesh, then he was automatically sinful like flesh equals equals sinful. And so having these categories fleshed out in our minds will help us be able to kind of have those conversations and talk through how Jesus actually wasn't sinful just because he was flesh.

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Chris
Right. Well, or take what's more in our backyard here. Mormonism. Yep, is another issue. But I'd also say I think I just think for for a lot of people they aren't terribly clear on that that Jesus was was is 100% God and he's also 100% human. And he he's both now people will say, well, how does that work?

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Chris
You have kids, you know, your children. And at some point I was like, well, there's there's mystery when it comes to the Godhead, and we're not going to be able to fully understand that. But just because we don't fully understand it doesn't mean we can't affirm that that's what the scripture teaches.

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Brenton
Yeah. And I guess that that has come up with my kids quite a bit. My oldest one specifically, and I think the most helpful way I've found to explain it is really not to even use the percentage thing, because I think that automatically throws people off. But just really the point of it is that God that Jesus came as as fully God, but he didn't lose any of his goodness when he took on flesh.

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Brenton
All it was, it was an addition and subtraction. And so really, it's not the point is that he all he did was veil for a time. Some of his his his godless, if you will. But then he also fully took on what it means to be human.

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Chris
So. Absolutely. And and think just think about the wonder that the God of the universe would actually, you know, confine himself. Yeah. You know, be careful there. But but yeah you know like he he he would be incarnated in fleshed in a human and a human body. Yeah. And again he's not bound by that human body and that I'm not saying that at all but to think about that and and not in a you know when he was born he was a bit, you know, born literally.

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Chris
Obviously, he was a baby and all that. That means.

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Brenton
Yeah. Well, and we see that on the the, the transfiguration and in Luke it says Jesus allowed his divine glory to shine through the veil. Right. So there, there was a there was obviously stuff he was, he was holding back. Yeah. In some of the transfiguration.

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Chris
Right. Yeah. It's like yeah, yeah. So again it's is easy to say the wrong thing when it comes to Christology. Here. It's it's really hard to even explain it in human terms. So.

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Brenton
Yep, in the latter half of verse three and into verse four, we see another essential theological concept called expiation. We've we've talked a few times about perpetuation, the idea that that Christ sacrificed to turn the Father's wrath away from us. That resulted in a in a change of God's disposition toward us. But could you explain what expiation means and why it's important?

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Chris
Sure. I love how you always bring these big theological terms that many people. We're going to go further. Yeah. So I think you've got to look at the at the word itself expiation to take away. I think that this was at least partly in view when John the Baptist sees Jesus and says, Behold the LAMB of God who takes away the sins of the world.

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Chris
So in perpetuation, like you say, Jesus turns God's wrath away from us. And then in EXPIATE version, He takes our sins away from us. And I've used this illustration before, but to me I think it's the most hell for you. Go back to Leviticus 16 and the Day of Atonement High priests would take two goats and one would be killed.

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Chris
Blood would be shed on the mercy seat that symbolizing perpetuation, that that that goat took the wrath of the penalty for first sin, and then the other go known as the scapegoat would be taken out into the wilderness. And it would be basically, you know, get out of here. That's expiation, you know, symbolizing hell. But the sins have been taken away.

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Chris
Actually read one time that the don't know if it was a priest or who they would send with. Some of them would take the goat and they'd actually push it off of the cliff so that the the goat would never, wouldn't actually come back and was really be a bad day. Right. If this that the goat his symbolizing assumes sins being taken away comes back into the camp but wrecked the whole thing.

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Chris
Yeah. Of that as an abstraction the point is like so there's just so many things going on at the cross and God's wrath being turned aside perpetuation there's there's expiation where our sins are being taken away. They, they are being cast into the depths of the sea as the Old Testament, you know, pictures it. And then there's there's also and I don't know if you're going to get in to this or not, but now, you know, we go into worse for where now the the you know, the righteous requirement, the law is fulfilled in us.

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Chris
So that's actually also happening at the cross where now God is is considering in the atonement. God is considering that now we have met the righteous requirements in the law, in Christ's sake, for the Inst 521 God made him who had no sin to be seen for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

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Chris
And, you know, in Jesus on the cross cries out, It is finished. What's he talking about? He's talking about all of these things. Yeah. So? So it well, and to use another term, I forgot an amputation. Right. Right. You like that word too. But it's a perpetuation. Taking the sin or turning God's wrath aside, expiation taking the sins away in thou amputation, where now God imputes Christ's righteousness to us and impute means that He just He counts it.

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Chris
He credits it to to us.

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Brenton
Yeah. And we were talking a little bit before we hit record here, but just the the importance of imputation being that that Christ sacrificed doesn't just bring us back to neutral. It doesn't, it doesn't put us just back it zero, but it actually gives us Christ righteousness, it gives us wealth in that regard.

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Chris
Yeah. And like I said to you before you hit record, I really think that that's a big missing component to many people's understanding of salvation. We and honestly, this is my opinion of the Church's fault. My time at Harmony, specifically with the Church's fault is like we just focus so much on Do you want your sins to be forgiven?

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Chris
Do you want to go to heaven when you die? And all those things are true and important. But what has often got missed out in and this is maybe the most wonderful part of it, I really tried to emphasize that this on Sunday, but is that now when God looks at me, he sees perfection and he relates to me in that way.

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Chris
I'm fully love, fully accepted, and I will always be. And that is where we find, in my opinion, the power and the motivation. And we'll talk more about that, this truth this week. So to live the Christian life, if it's simply about my sins are forgiven, I'm going to go to heaven when I die, well then we left it like, okay, but you know, obviously when I was six years old was like almost 45 years ago.

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Chris
Yeah. So let's just wait. What's the next 45 years for? Well, it's about as Paul hits here at the end of verse four that we're there. The purpose is that we might not walk according to the flesh, but according to spirit.

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Brenton
Yeah. Good. Verse four ends with who walk? Not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. Do you think that that is just another way to describe a Christian? Like, is that is this the same description that we see in in verse one?

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Chris
Yes. Okay. And I'm not going to go too deep into this because the message this coming Sunday is going to cover this in detail. That is a descriptive phrase. So what we're going to see this week is, is Paul speaking mostly in descriptive terms? And then after he's really laid that out, he's going to be prescriptive. But but here is descriptive is that those who are in Christ, they do walk according to that means directed by the Spirit, that that is the kind of life that they live, not directed by the flesh, but directed by the spirit.

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Brenton
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that'll hopefully make some more sense next week. But I think that is an important distinction in here that some people would disagree with. So we'll get into that next week. Okay. I think that it's common for, you know, churches to spend a lot of time discussing the work of the father and the son, but but be a little more hesitant to teach on the spirit.

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Brenton
And there's probably a lot of reasons for that. But I know next week will we'll be talking quite a bit about the work of the Spirit in our salvation and our sanctification. But but to prepare for that, I think it might be helpful to discuss who he is and what his role in the Godhead is. Could you just I don't know how to ask this question, but give us a quick primer on, you know, what what would be helpful for us to know going into next week?

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Chris
Sure. So the Holy Spirit is also fully God. So we actually have in verse nine, I'm not sure, by the way, how in the world I'm going to be able to get through everything this coming week. So as you go through each week, you pray that wisdom. But the in verse nine, we literally have the Trinity. There we see the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.

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Chris
So you've got God, the Father, God, the Son and God the Holy Spirit. So Holy Spirit is is fully God. He He's not, you know, a force. He's a he's a person.

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Brenton
Yeah. Just notice you're saying he is not it as well.

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Chris
Correct. Yeah. He's, he's not the. Yeah. Not, not a force. Not it. He is a person just like Jesus is a person. Just like God. The father is a person. And so we talk about the Trinity. I think the most helpful way and again, this would be something else is like there's definitely a mystery to how this all work.

00;28;28;13 - 00;28;56;12
Chris
But when Gruden's definition of of the Trinity has has been the one that's that's been most helpful to me. So there's one God in three persons with, with each person being fully God. So again, one God God is one really, really clear, especially in the Old Testament. But there are three persons. That's a very, very clear in the Old Testament, but especially in the New Testament.

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Chris
We can see it in our text verse nine and each person is fully God. So the Holy Spirit is fully God and His role. If you really want to see the Holy Spirit, I think the best place to do is John 14 through 16, where Jesus talks about the Holy Spirit a whole lot and the Holy Spirit's job there, Jesus makes it really clear, is to glorify Christ, to point to Jesus, to convict people of sin and their need for Jesus to make Jesus known.

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Chris
The Holy Spirit is all about Jesus, which maybe we'll get into this a little bit more next week. Shows that much of our modern infatuation with the Holy Spirit is misguided, because when the Holy Spirit is really doing His work, he's not drawing attention to himself. He's drawing his attention to Jesus. Yeah. And, you know, Jesus says, you know, when the Holy Spirit comes, he will guide you In all truth, you will take what is mine to make it known to you.

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Chris
And so the Holy Spirit responsibility is responsible for illuminating us in regards to the Scripture. In other places, obviously, we can see that He is the one who regenerates us, which means that he's the one who gives us new life. But how he does that is by pointing us to Christ, helping us to see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

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Chris
Paul talks about the Secretary in the chapter for Holy Spirit Convicts of Sin. Jesus talks about that in the Gospel of John. When he comes here can make the role of sin and so he he's doing that. He's the comforter he is. That's another thing that the Jew says in John chapter 14 and in our text, maybe to bring this to a close because I can go on and on here, but intersex this coming week we're going to see that he is the the agent so to speak, the the member of the Godhead who produces sanctification in us, who who produces holiness in us, who brings us to the the the purpose and the end

00;31;20;24 - 00;31;42;12
Chris
of why Jesus Jesus came. And so if we go go to our text and we look in versus three and three and four, God sent his son. So God did what the law couldn't do by sending his son in the likeness of sinful flesh and forcing so that the righteous requirement of law might be fulfilled in us. So all of that.

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Chris
And then he says, who walk? Not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit. And in other words, the end of why Jesus came was that we might walk according to the Spirit. We might be directed by him, we might live a holy life. And the Holy Spirit is the one who produces that in us.

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Brenton
Yeah.

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Chris
I mean, again, we could talk a lot more. You know, people, when they talk about the Holy Spirit, they tend to focus on spiritual gifts, which is certainly important. And part of his role. We could get in, of course, to the sign gifts and all that kind of stuff. And that would be a worthy discussion at some point.

00;32;23;15 - 00;32;43;28
Chris
And certainly that is a work of the Holy Spirit, too. But all of those those things are toward the end of making Christ known and helping those who have placed their faith in Christ through the Holy Spirit to work, to to to grow and to become more Christ like.

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Brenton
Yeah, yeah. I think that's a that's a good distinction to make that he is always pointing pointing us toward toward Christ. I think it would be probably helpful and interesting to have more of a talk over over the Trinity and the way that they kind of interact with each other and and their specific roles. Obviously not time for that today, but yeah, I think how I kind of started out that question, we do see either a total overemphasis on the work of the spirit or, you know, we kind of we can kind of fall in the other ditch of just not really talking about him at all.

00;33;29;07 - 00;33;45;10
Brenton
And so finding, finding balance that is in line with Scripture in the way that that even Christ himself talks about him is, I think, important because we we certainly can't leave him out. And especially what we're going to find in in this chapter.

00;33;46;04 - 00;34;23;14
Chris
Yeah, I mean, my experience is that people are either on on one side or the other here is like it's all about the spirit. And, you know, it's just I wouldn't say infatuated, but just like in particularly in regards to more on the miraculous kind of and, and there's that and then on the other end sometimes in response to this or reaction to this is there's just like there's nothing you don't think about them, don't talk about them.

00;34;24;02 - 00;34;32;12
Chris
And we need to and I hopefully here in Romans chapter eight, we're going to be able to find the balance there.

00;34;32;25 - 00;34;49;02
Brenton
Yeah, okay. Hopefully that was helpful as you guys kind of get ready for next week and and there's going to be a lot of discussion in the spirit coming up. So we're excited. It'll be good. Moving on here and yeah, thanks, Chris. And we will talk to you guys next week.