Episode 13: The Enemies of a Godly Legacy

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Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further. I'm Brennan Graham and today I'm here with Chris Carr and another first time guest on the show. Chris, you want to you want to introduce her?

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Chris
Yes. Really excited to have my wife Eva, with us here today. First time ever. Yeah.

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Eva
It's good to be here.

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Brenton
Yeah. Thanks for coming. Even as we continue through this series, the plan is to have some different guests on and to talk about their experiences with this topic. And so we think this will be a good opportunity to get practical and learn from people that have made this a priority in their in their own lives. And so there will likely be one or two bonus episodes coming out in the next couple of weeks.

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Brenton
So look out for those. I want to start real quick with something that you, Chris, had said this last Sunday, and I guess I just wanted to get some clarity on it and maybe we can talk about it for a little bit. You said the devil is powerful enough to hinder God's work in the world. Could you elaborate on that a little?

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Chris
Well, that comment comes directly from First Thessalonians chapter two, verse 18 a Paul is talking to the Thessalonians and he's telling them about how he wanted to come be with them and see them face to face. But Satan had hindered him from doing so. And so we're really not given any more details other than that about what that hindering, what how that how hindering happened, how the scene did that.

00;01;48;23 - 00;02;12;26
Chris
But in some ways, he may be either through persecution or maybe disrupting travel plans or something else. He somehow prevented them from from going and doing ministry among the Thessalonians. Now we have a couple of examples, I think in in the Old Testament that kind of bear out. Give us some maybe clear examples that the primary one being Daniel Chapter ten.

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Chris
So Daniel is fasting for three weeks praying, he's praying over Jerusalem. What's happened to the Jews that he's in Babylonia in captivity. And so he's he's praying for three weeks. And then apparently an angel comes to him and the angel says, Hey, I was I was trying to come to you, too, to give you an answer to your prayers.

00;02;36;10 - 00;03;02;00
Chris
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia, who's believed to be a demon, and he says that Prince of the Kingdom of Persia was to me for 21 days. So the exact same number of days that the Danny had been praying. And then he says, But Michael, one of the chief princes, which is Michael, is one of the archangels, maybe the primary archangel, he came to help me.

00;03;02;00 - 00;03;41;12
Chris
And so we can see there that somehow Satan's entourage, so to speak, had prevented an angel, an angel, an angel from actually coming in and doing the ministry that God had sent him to do. There's another example in Nehemiah chapter two, where Nehemiah, after he gets permission to go back to Jerusalem and to rebuild the wall around Jerusalem and to hopefully eventually see that the temple is rebuilt and all those things, he goes back and we're told that two men, Sam Ballot, the Hornet and two by the Ammonite.

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Chris
They heard about it that he was coming at this please them greatly and that they then go on to do all they can to keep the wall from being rebuilt. So they're hindering God's work in the world. So, you know, we're not given a lot of specifics about how all these dynamics works. And I think we need to keep in mind that when we say hinder, it doesn't mean that they can keep God from accomplishing what God plans and intends to accomplish.

00;04;08;08 - 00;04;39;03
Chris
Jesus says Matthew 16. I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. But so we've got to remember that God's always going to accomplish his purposes. And sometimes it would appear that God allows Satan to hinder what appears to be His purposes in that moment, to accomplish greater purposes. And yet we do have these clear examples that that Satan is powerful enough to hinder God's work in in the world.

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Chris
SPURGEON has a great sermon on this. Maybe we'll put it in the show notes if it's available online, specifically on four Thessalonians two 1718.

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Brenton
Okay. Yeah. And I think the example that kind of came to mind for me was job, right? So there was a clear God allowed Satan to do that. And so nothing is is happening that's outside of God's sovereign control, right. So. Right. Okay.

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Chris
Yeah. Well, one other thing to add here, John, 19 pilot says to Jesus, you will not speak to me. Don't you know that I have authority over you to release you and crucify you? And Jesus says you'd have no authority over me at all unless it had been given to you from above. And so I bring that up just to say that, yes, obviously Satan can hinder God's work in in the world.

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Chris
We see that in the you know, in some ways, we see that in the crucifixion, that Satan was behind the crucifixion. But then when we look deeper and we know the end of the story, God was actually working through Satan in a sense, to accomplish his purposes.

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Brenton
And I think that's that's key to the conversation, to understand that even if if Satan has a role in this, it's still to accomplish God's purposes.

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Chris
Right. And my point in that, which is to say that Satan is powerful and so he does have the ability to cause significant damage and to disrupt things in our world.

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Brenton
Yeah, great. I appreciate that. So either can you tell us a little bit about your childhood and growing up as a pastor's kid?

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Eva
Sure. I was the youngest of five kids. The only girl.

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Chris
She was the princess.

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Eva
Oh, I was picked on. That's my story. And I'm totally sticking to it. But my my entire life, my dad was in ministry. He came to the Lord while he was in the Army, and immediately he was stationed in England, started preaching and and whatnot. From the very beginning. He was in ministry for six years and they my parents, he pastored churches really all over the place Illinois, New Mexico, Texas, Indiana, Michigan, and there was I have no memory of my childhood, family life, existence.

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Eva
It did not revolve around the church and to the point where, of course, that was back when we had three services a week and, you know, and then some. My mom did the books for the church. My dad did everything in the church, and I was heavily involved in the music ministry. So there was just there was no parameters or circumstances that existed where we were not going to go this week or, oh, we're not going to you know, I mean, I don't we we didn't take vacations that involved a Sunday and often Wednesdays.

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Eva
And so that was just kind of how it was to the point where even when I got in high school, if there was if there happen to be a basketball game, they were supposed to play in summer basketball on Wednesday night, it was a given that was not happening. And when I became an adult and when we got married and had kids again, there was no it didn't even occur to me that that is up for discussion, I guess.

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Eva
Yeah. The basic idea of how I grew up as far as church goes and the importance of church and certainly there may have been times when it would have, you know, been okay and been reasonable to miss an occasional Sunday. But those are very few and far between. And yeah, that's just kind of how my whole existence and we constantly had people from the church in our home, we had missionaries in our home, evangelists in our home and that's what we did.

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Brenton
Yeah. So I think that with with some kids, you kind of end up with an adult that wants to continue that on. A lot of times it doesn't go that way. Right? So you have you have parents that do that kind of thing. Yeah. But the adult grows up or the child becomes an adult and it just it has the opposite effect.

00;09;22;18 - 00;09;36;08
Brenton
It doesn't want to be a part of it. Do you think that that's something your parents did right, that that made you who you are today? Or is that just an act of grace by God? But how do you kind of see that?

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Eva
That's a great question. I would say yes and no, because I I think that the thing with my parents is they were consistent across the board. We didn't do all those things because other people were watching. We didn't do all those things because it was written down somewhere as a checklist. They genuinely and sincerely felt like that was the best place we could be.

00;10;11;23 - 00;10;40;26
Eva
And so while we may disagree on various other things that we'll get into later in the podcast, I can never fault or disrespect that mentality. And so, sure, I, I have many friends that they had to be there every time, you know, the doors were open, as they say, and and they resented that and then therefore did not stay the course, so to speak, for me.

00;10;41;08 - 00;11;12;17
Eva
I felt it was a little bit of the lifeblood of, you know, of our family dynamics. A great day for the church. We're going to we're going to give our maximum effort to grow the kingdom through that. And so I totally agree with what you're saying. And I and I know that many I know many people that were in that same environment that did not stay that same path.

00;11;12;17 - 00;11;31;23
Eva
But then. Yes, and also an act of grace got in my life because, again, I amidst all of that, I wanted to facilitate that same thing in in my family.

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Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's partly what you're saying is there there's a distinction between, you know, probably prioritizing going to church every Sunday and and also making the church a priority in the life of your family. So there's there's a distinction between those two things of, you know, we have family the people that have a family. Yeah, we attend church every week, but the rest of the week looks the same.

00;11;58;00 - 00;12;10;21
Brenton
And so I'm certainly not going to work 100% of the time with every kid. But but that is a very important part of of a kid's life is to be involved with the church even outside of Sundays. Yeah.

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Chris
I think one thing important to highlight here, I've mentioned it, but I just like to emphasize it Eivor's parents were they were just consistent. Yeah. And you know, her dad and I have some significant theological differences one day. Well, I guess we'll we'll figure out when we're we're in heaven together. It was right. It was wrong. And not just theological, but philosophical differences.

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Chris
And and yet I still really respect him because he he really was the same person and church that he was at home. And I can't speak. I didn't obviously grow up in any of his home. But I think that makes a big, big difference is that even her brothers didn't get to different John wagon shoes. We had the same guy there and so he he truly he truly believed what he what he preached and what what he taught and all the way Yeah, yeah.

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Chris
And you know, until he met Jesus.

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Brenton
So how, how do you think that your childhood affected your adult life with your own kids.

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Eva
In in regard to church and things of that?

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Brenton
Yeah. I mean, I mean, the broad category here is leaving a godly legacy. So I mean, church is certainly a part of that. But the consistency that Chris is talking about and the importance of of being involved in church, how did that kind of translate into you with your with your own kids?

00;13;51;04 - 00;14;22;24
Eva
Well, primarily, I mean, again, we've both now mentioned consistency, but it I, I cannot emphasize that enough. That was, I guess, a hill I was going to die on, I guess parenting wise and personally that if I you know, specifically talking about thinking about parenting, if I said here is this instruction, if you follow that instruction, here's this outcome.

00;14;23;02 - 00;14;41;05
Eva
If you follow a different instruction, here's this outcome. And I'm sure there were times when I didn't follow through, I, I mean, I can't think of one, though. And so Chris always says, I, I die on every hill. So I'm sure he says it lovingly.

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Brenton
But conviction.

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Eva
I what whatever was put forth, I, I usually had no problem following through to the point where sometimes I might have gotten hung up on that a little bit, but not shown as much grace as I could have. But consistency wise, because I, I just felt like, again, that thread was pulled through so significantly for me that even when I didn't necessarily agree with whatever was being done or said, not because of a biblical reason to disagree, but just as a kid, even when I did not necessarily think that was valid or worthwhile, my parents were so consistent and I respected them so much.

00;15;37;08 - 00;16;03;23
Eva
Because of that, I knew that their heart was in the right place and it drew me to try to follow. So their their example. And so when we had kids, I, I just wanted to implement that as best I could. Short of, you know, you got to take Eva out of the equation. But as best I could, I tried to implement that.

00;16;04;03 - 00;16;29;23
Eva
And then what I didn't have as a caveat to kind of veer just a tiny bit was I, I tried as much as possible to also include a here's why we're doing it more so than I did, because I didn't have any of those caveats in my instruction. And as a child, it was it is there is no question.

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Eva
And while we aired on that, hey, we said it, you're going to need to follow that. We tried to also include and here's why this matters.

00;16;42;08 - 00;16;53;27
Brenton
So that's good advice. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thank you, Chris. One of the barriers to a godly legacy you mentioned on Sunday.

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Chris
Was the World.

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Brenton
And I'd like to talk about that a bit more and define it more clearly. But first, can you give a quick explanation of what you meant by it on Sunday?

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Chris
So I defined the world as a value system of human culture that's in opposition to God. So you might think about the treasures of the world, the priorities of the world, the philosophies of the world, and how those things are in conflict with. And a lot of times are hostile to, you know, the things that God treasures and he prioritizes and the biblical philosophy that that we find all throughout the scriptures, and particularly as it's laid out for us in the New Testament.

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Brenton
Okay, so what about things that are that are often considered worldly, like movies or music or entertainment in general? Obviously, we we as Christians still engage with these things. But but what's your approach to them, given what you said on Sunday?

00;17;59;07 - 00;18;22;26
Chris
Sure. I will start just by quoting the passage, John 17 to have brought this up on Sunday. But if I would have brought up everything I could have brought up about the world, it would have been a really, really long message. So John, 17, it's Jesus high priestly prayer, the prayer that he prays. We believe the night that he actually went into the Garden of Gethsemane, he was betrayed and of course, crucified.

00;18;22;26 - 00;18;41;16
Chris
The next day. And so John, 1714 through 17, I have given them your word. He's talking about the disciples and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep from them from the evil one.

00;18;41;16 - 00;19;18;07
Chris
They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth. Your word is truth. So as believers, Jesus tells us here that we are in the world, but not of the world. And this I mean, this is a really complicated thing that we're talking about here, because when I grew up and Eva shared this in common with me, worldliness was attributed to what you wore, what you listen to, where you went, what you watched.

00;19;18;18 - 00;19;52;04
Chris
Yeah. And those things can have worldly elements to them, but they are not in and of themselves worldly like like for for us growing up, going to the movies was worldly. But that's not, that's not the world. Although the worlds values and their system systems, the priorities and treasure, all those kind of things they come through, they can come through media, but they are not the world in and of themselves.

00;19;52;04 - 00;20;30;20
Chris
And so all of that to say, I think that where Jesus talks about sanctify them in truth, your word is truth. He wants us to sanctify means to be made holy, to be made Christ like. And what element that the word or word, not the world, but the word is meant to provide is discernment for us so that as we are in the world and as we are hearing these things and at times participating in things, we can have discernment to know what is from God and what is worldly.

00;20;30;26 - 00;20;57;07
Chris
What is that system that is actually in opposition to God. And so that's where the distinction. It's a fine line. And I go back to Romans 12 to don't be conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Now, again, growing up, and I'd love to hear what you has to say about this, but growing up, it's like you don't you know, you just you separate yourself from all of this and there's problems in that because of be separate yourself in the world.

00;20;57;07 - 00;21;26;26
Chris
A We're actually not doing what Jesus praying this the guy the father for. But second, how do we actually engage the world in evangelize the world and how do we actually, you know, reach the world? But we do have to be really, really careful because if we just immerse ourselves in everything the world is saying and we do it without discernment, then we are going to become worldly and we're going to think like the world.

00;21;26;26 - 00;21;28;27
Chris
We're going to act like the world. We're going to believe like the world.

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Brenton
Oh, yeah.

00;21;30;10 - 00;21;31;16
Chris
You got anything to add there?

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Eva
Yeah. One of my dad's most common catchphrase phrases was Don't drink. Don't you don't run with those that do. I don't know if that's so.

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Chris
I thought it was with girls that I do.

00;21;45;09 - 00;22;15;17
Eva
Well, I went with those things. Okay. But the the thought process of that, they it was a kind of a joking he always said it kind of joking, but he also again, meant it. So it was, you know, what I what I wore, what I spent my time doing. We didn't go to movies. We didn't have movies in our home.

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Eva
I only wear skirts because there's some element that with say, that pants where you know that verse and Deuteronomy, that's the clothes that pertains to a man that Deuteronomy is speaking of. Again, I'm not saying that that's what I was taught. And so, again, alcohol, dancing, music that had a drum in it and so on and on, you could make that list go and also who you spent time with, who you brought into your life.

00;22;53;08 - 00;23;21;11
Eva
We wouldn't. We, we had unbelievers that lived next door to us, for example, that we would my dad would, you know, wave across the fence to and we said hello, but in 30 years I, we didn't share meal. We didn't do anything other than, you know, borrow the lawnmower, so to speak, because because they had a different world to you.

00;23;21;11 - 00;23;51;09
Eva
And we wouldn't want to be influenced by that. And so again, there's discernment in that. I how are we how are they going to hear our heart for their relationship with Christ and that he can meet their need and comfort them in their time? How can we even present that if we have no relationship with with them yet this in it, not of it.

00;23;51;09 - 00;24;35;16
Eva
Passage of Scripture? That was another one that was constantly talked about. That meant we exist in in the way I was raised. We exist in the world. We're in it. Yeah, but none of it meant we don't have any thing to do with that existence, the world around us. So that it creates a really difficult scenario of even the Great Commission, you know, and, and so everything in, in my childhood there was, there was the sacred and there was the secular, and there were no gray area avenues where those things crossed.

00;24;36;12 - 00;24;59;29
Eva
So there had to be a hard and fast line between. So there was no redeeming something for, you know, the sake of Christ that inherently would they would be that would have been viewed as secular. So I don't know if that makes sense, but that was kind of the mentality.

00;24;59;29 - 00;25;07;22
Brenton
Yeah, I'm kind of curious. Maybe it's too long for this, but what was what was your journey out of that? How did how did that change?

00;25;07;24 - 00;25;41;26
Eva
Well, I met this rebel rebel at the time, Christian school teacher, that was like, hey, I don't know that that's what it's all about. Nobody seriously, even in college, there were things that I made some choices that, again, didn't fall in line with that. But I you know, had small conversations, usually one on one with my mom that said, hey, I'm I still believe all the foundational truths.

00;25;42;07 - 00;26;15;07
Eva
I think I disagree with this outward expression of that of those French foundational truths. When I'm around you, I'm going to respect what you've asked me to do and wear and be. But just so you know, when I'm not, you know, for instance, I'm going to wear a pair of jeans, but around you I won't just not to to present a false but just out of respect.

00;26;15;29 - 00;26;49;03
Eva
And that's how I handled it. I just tiny little steps into saying and I think they've seen over the years that we have stayed true to the course in the cause of Christ and our raising our kids to do the same. And so I think that that they still would disagreed, but yet I think they could see that our faith was genuine, our walk was genuine, and that we were somehow still following after Christ.

00;26;49;16 - 00;26;54;28
Eva
Yet, you know, attending an occasional movie for us as an example. I don't know.

00;26;55;03 - 00;26;56;24
Chris
Do we ever tell them that? I'm not sure and.

00;26;57;03 - 00;26;59;29
Eva
Even go down in the details, Chris But I.

00;27;00;08 - 00;27;02;10
Chris
Hope the family doesn't get hold of Spike just.

00;27;02;13 - 00;27;33;28
Eva
A I read. I mean, I did talk about the the jeans one time with her just and on a recent trip I'll just throw this in here that I took her on a eight day trip to visit all the places my dad pastored church churches before he passed away, and it was very meaningful. But roughly day six or so in she said, you know, you don't have to because I was wearing skirts and dresses and comfortable, but I wasn't all fancy, you know, Sunday best.

00;27;34;10 - 00;27;51;22
Eva
But she said, you know, you don't have to wear that on my account. I said, No, I, I want to do that, mom. And so is a I'm going to get all emotional. But it was a it was a poignant moment for the two of us to that was probably the first time that anything like that had been said.

00;27;52;10 - 00;28;18;21
Eva
Yeah, but it was it's again, a matter of respecting what I was taught and trying to be evaluating like, okay, what do I really believe about that? About the again, not the foundational truths, but about the external. Do different lists of things. And then again, like I said, I was honest about it.

00;28;19;11 - 00;28;32;29
Brenton
And that's good. I think in your position it would have been easy to kind of rebel against that as well. And so it's it's good to hear that you I mean, you could still kind of be respectful of these beliefs without thrown in their face.

00;28;32;29 - 00;28;33;10
Eva
Yeah.

00;28;34;07 - 00;28;35;00
Brenton
So I.

00;28;35;00 - 00;28;36;09
Chris
Was a rebel was what she.

00;28;36;15 - 00;28;37;16
Brenton
Said. There's a place for that.

00;28;38;07 - 00;28;44;12
Eva
In case you're wondering, spoiler alert he's sitting right here right now.

00;28;44;12 - 00;29;08;29
Brenton
That's good. I think we we kind of just went down the road of kind of legalism, but another another issue that I think can happen without maybe even realizing is that neutrality doesn't exist. And I think it's easy to to kind of pretend like it does. So every every form of media that we consume has a message inherent in it.

00;29;09;13 - 00;29;29;24
Brenton
And and we need to be aware of that. And we shouldn't we shouldn't allow ourselves to pretend like we're engaging in mindless entertainment and we need to stay aware of what's being communicated. And I, I think it can be good to engage with these things and examine and examine them. And I know, Chris, you're your big Marvel fan, right?

00;29;30;19 - 00;29;31;18
Brenton
You've seen one or two.

00;29;31;20 - 00;29;35;02
Chris
My family is. But yeah, sure. I've seen most if not all of them.

00;29;35;02 - 00;29;55;13
Brenton
Yeah. So, I mean, it's it's easy to sit through those movies and just kind of think, oh, this is this is just kind of fun to watch. But, but in every form of entertainment there, there is a message going out and and so some of that, I think, is not to just be ignored by us and just say we're not we're not going to watch it.

00;29;55;13 - 00;30;10;17
Brenton
We're not going to be involved with this, but to actually examine what what other people's worldviews are and sure, but also not to, you know, ignore that, that there is messaging in those things probably antithetical to what we believe a lot of times.

00;30;10;24 - 00;30;37;14
Chris
Right. Well, we should always and this is a really important point. We should always listen, read, engage in things with discernment. It's one of the most important character traits, not really a character trait, but just whatever you want to call it. The things that we need to do as believers. And this should be even true. You know, we see examples in Scripture, like the Marines.

00;30;37;14 - 00;31;01;28
Chris
Paul's preaching the word to him and they when they went back to the Scripture to make sure that what Paul is teaching them is correct. So if they're doing it from Paul and they're commended for that, we ought to be doing it for everything, especially Marvel movies or any other entertainment that we hear. And that's that's one of the problems today is like it's again, it's not is it's not wrong to go to the movies.

00;31;01;28 - 00;31;26;25
Chris
It's not wrong to listen to. I don't even like the word anymore. I think it's secular music. It's not wrong to to hang around with unbelievers is actually we should be to some degree doing that. But we have to do all of that with with the sermon and beat be if I can use the word over it's an overuse of fact checking what we're what we're hearing, what the messaging is, is is this in line with scripture?

00;31;27;21 - 00;31;56;10
Chris
And because if we don't, we are going to and we don't even see this happening. And it's like the frog that you put in a pot of boiling water just over time, it it just gets acclimated to it. And we start again. You just keep saying this. We keep we start acting, thinking, believing like the world does, and we can get way off base where where those things are not anywhere close to what the Bible would would call us to be.

00;31;57;03 - 00;31;59;18
Chris
Yeah, well, yeah, I would be in line with God's values.

00;31;59;20 - 00;32;35;18
Eva
Sure, I would add to our former pastor said something one Sunday a long time ago that has stuck with me in that regard, that he said we are far too entertained by sin and we the more we consume various forms of media, let's just say television right now, movies with no discernment, we become desensitized to blatant sin that we find ourselves laughing at, enjoying hoping this happens with these two characters.

00;32;35;19 - 00;32;56;19
Eva
And and you realize if you and I've been heavily convicted over that one phrase that he said years ago, often in the past ten years, 12 years, just thinking about, oh, I think this I think that's what's happened to me here. I've I'm entertained by sin.

00;32;57;09 - 00;33;52;07
Chris
Yeah. I can just give an example here. I've just noticed that that Christians in general have become more comfortable with things like nudity and pretty obscene language, you know, joking that is coarse and inappropriate. And I think that that's because it just becomes more and more a part of the media that we are just consuming. It's not only that, you know, today, it's not only that that's more prevalent in the media, it's that we actually are consuming more of it, binging, Netflix and all of the different, you know, services that that are up there that you can can and not to mention social media and all those kind of things.

00;33;52;07 - 00;34;12;22
Chris
And again I'm not going to you know, I'm not going to say don't watch the show or don't watch the show. I've never I like I've never done that. And I don't plan I don't plan to do it. But if we're watching those things and we do it repeatedly, then eventually those things are going to become acceptable to us.

00;34;13;22 - 00;34;27;04
Chris
It's like you said, it's not going to be it's not neutral. Yeah. And so we've got to be really careful about what we take in and how much we take it in.

00;34;27;04 - 00;34;43;19
Brenton
So I guess just practically what what would that look like for you? Would you if, if you felt like there was too much of something in a show, would you, would you just stop or is it what I guess it what it what does that look like for you?

00;34;43;19 - 00;35;10;17
Chris
Yeah, I, I somewhat hesitate with what I'm going to say here because I don't, I don't want to be prescriptive and in regards to like this is what I do and like everybody else needs to do what I do. I don't want to be the I'm not the holy Spirit, and I want to stand on what God when God's word is clear.

00;35;10;17 - 00;35;41;28
Chris
I want to I want to be clear. And any of it can can speak into this. But like for us, like the nudity thing is a no is a no go, right? There are a couple of shows I'm actually I'll give an example here. Actually, I won't give specifics, but there there are a couple of shows on on Amazon Prime that are developed from a couple of authors books that I really, really like.

00;35;42;15 - 00;35;44;05
Brenton
And I'll never guess.

00;35;46;11 - 00;36;14;11
Chris
And I really and I'm tempted even now to watch them to watch these. But I, I try to be really careful about reading reviews before I start to watch something in, in, in, in one of them the review said there's there's nudity in the first episodes. I haven't watched any of them. And the other one, I actually don't think I did watch the review on this one.

00;36;14;11 - 00;36;35;06
Chris
And there was something in the first episode and I'm like, I'm just not I'm not going to I'm not there because of my and maybe, maybe people are stronger than than me, but my, my flesh is weak. And I that's just like killing the flesh. It's just like, I'm not going to give it any quarter. So Paul says in Romans 13, Make no provision for the flesh.

00;36;35;13 - 00;36;48;20
Chris
So that's a verse I didn't bring up on Sunday again, another time thing. But he says, don't make any provision. Don't don't give it any quarter in any room. And so that's like personally for me.

00;36;50;21 - 00;37;33;16
Brenton
Yeah, I think I think it's smart to have kind of barriers set up. There's there's lines that we will not cross. Right. And that might look different for all of us. But that's it's smart to be there. I think that even apart from the swearing and the nudity or whatever, wherever those lines are drawn, I think that there's there's still just wisdom in I said it earlier, but the messaging of of whatever you're watching, there's there's every every everything that comes out is saying something and that director wants to say something.

00;37;33;16 - 00;37;37;09
Brenton
And so there's paying attention to those things is it's important right?

00;37;37;09 - 00;37;58;16
Chris
Well, let me just say this, because I know there's going to be some objections to what I just said. I can hear the legalism, that's legalism, that's legalism. And I just want to be really clear that it would be legalism if I said that you have to do what I do in order to be spiritual or or even to be saved.

00;37;58;16 - 00;38;22;24
Chris
Right. And I'm not I'm not actually saying that it's not legalism to say that I am trying to kill my flesh and be careful about the things that I consume because I want to faithfully follow Jesus and I want to encourage you to look at your own life and wrestle with those kind of things. If I yeah, lay down laws as you, you can't watch, you know, you can't go to Marvel movies.

00;38;23;04 - 00;38;46;15
Chris
That's wrong. Well, then that yes, you're okay. But I'm not saying that. I'm saying we need to be careful and discerning and like you mentioned barriers. We, we, we we do need to protect ourselves and be on our guard. And we need to look to the Scripture and let the Spirit and allow those two things to determine where we're going to set those up for ourselves.

00;38;47;09 - 00;39;05;18
Brenton
Yeah, that's wise. So, okay, staying on the same topic, the topic of worldliness, what what does this look like in your family and how you've navigated as parents? Me Either one.

00;39;05;18 - 00;39;35;25
Eva
Well, I mean, Chris just gave a discourse and how we handled a lot of those things in regard to entertainment. We so often looked up reviews and whatnot that our kids, when they became teenagers, started looking up the reviews because their friends were going to see something and they really wanted to have ammunition to tell us that they could go see it as well.

00;39;35;25 - 00;40;05;16
Eva
But when it was so egregious, then they'd be like, Yeah, now here's what this said. I know I can't go like, Yep, good researching. Okay, so and then often there were times where we it led to really good conversations about what that looks like in regard to what they did in their free time. There was never a like blank check.

00;40;05;25 - 00;40;25;06
Eva
You're this age. I know you're kind of not asking this direct question, but I'm going to squeeze it in. There was never a blank check like, Oh, you're 14 now. This means you can do X, Y, Z. Now you're 16. You can go do X, Now you have a license to date. Now you have a license to. We didn't we didn't buy any of that.

00;40;25;06 - 00;40;51;09
Eva
Like every situation dependent on who you were going to be with, what were you going to be doing? And so I'll compare to a lot of their friends parents. We were heavy handed in that regard. We tried to do that as just being exercising, discernment, using wisdom, evaluating. Is this the best place for you to be in? And there were a lot of times that that went really well.

00;40;51;12 - 00;41;17;06
Eva
I think there were some times that our our kids either deliberately, but I think more often than not they were told one thing and then they got to a friend, a friend function of some sort, and they realized that they weren't told the whole story. And so then they they were also then faced with, okay, what do I do now?

00;41;17;12 - 00;42;03;12
Eva
How do I handle this? Do I walk away? Do I go home? Do I you know, and they were met with real life wisdom, discerning situations. And I only know about those because they felt free to tell me those things. And I'm sure there's plenty that we weren't told, but I, I think that that it kind of allowed those conversations as much as they were willing to talk to their parents, it allowed conversations that would say, hey, is this somewhere you want to be or is everybody else?

00;42;03;12 - 00;42;23;08
Eva
They're going to be respecting of whatever choices you make to refrain from whatever it is. Is this something you want to put into your mind? Is this something you want to, you know, spend your time doing? Is it worthless or is it worthwhile? And that's kind of I don't know if that's directly answering the question, but.

00;42;23;16 - 00;42;47;28
Brenton
No, it's helpful. I think I think that what you're saying about just keeping communication open is is so important. You know, I know I when I was young, I lied to my parents a lot. And and that's something that Nikki and I as we're raising our kids, they're still young, but we're trying to just keep communication open and just really talk to them about everything that they could.

00;42;49;08 - 00;42;55;00
Brenton
They always have an open door to come talk to us about everything, and we try to facilitate that as much as possible.

00;42;55;06 - 00;43;11;07
Eva
Yeah, and I will say that we tried to do the same and there are still I mean, there's still things I mean, Chris and I said there are things that we didn't tell our parents. Yeah, there are things that, you know, they're big now. Our older kids are big and we're like finding out things are like, where was that?

00;43;11;07 - 00;43;55;02
Eva
We didn't know that. So we can help try to facilitate it and recognize that there's still going to be that was the that was the high level of of consequence in our parenting was lying. And you know no matter what that got the harsher so they got to their be a punishment or a consequence for whatever happened but then there was additional so they so we tried to keep it on to the lie so that lie would be more egregious, egregious than the offense, just in the sense of we want we wanted and tried to keep a short leash on that.

00;43;55;02 - 00;44;06;26
Eva
And again, even now, finding out that there's things that we didn't know about and I'm trying to institute some payback from, you know, ten years the road. I don't know if that's okay. But anyway.

00;44;08;00 - 00;44;37;22
Chris
Well, I think just to add here one thing. Some of this is we have the to to look back and to be able to to say in some ways that we were really there speaking here about what we would do differently than how well we did it at the time. And we're still in it. We still have a 13 year old and so we could have done a lot of things better and helped our kids out quite a bit more in these kind of things.

00;44;37;22 - 00;44;56;18
Chris
And at the same time, I would just add as well here I think is as your kids get older, you know, the younger they are, it's more like, no, this is of going to be the way it is. And then you move in to the phase where this is the way it is. Let me explain to you why it's the way it is.

00;44;57;12 - 00;45;03;27
Chris
And then at other times you do give them some freedom and then you talk about it on the other.

00;45;03;27 - 00;45;04;10
Brenton
Side.

00;45;05;17 - 00;45;30;23
Chris
And it's like, okay, we've watched this okay together. Or you went and watched it and there were some things concerning in there. Did you see anything in there? And you just have the discussions about that. And I think it's it takes a lot of wisdom, a lot of discernment. We're always going to we're never going to get it perfect for sure.

00;45;31;02 - 00;45;55;17
Chris
I only hope to, you know, get it right maybe half the time. But it is we're going to as they get older, they're going to be different, you know, periods that we're going to walk through and have different approaches of that. But we need to move at some point to like they are, you know, given some freedom to make their own decisions.

00;45;55;17 - 00;46;00;04
Chris
But then we're hopefully going to come around on the other side and talk about those things as we can.

00;46;00;22 - 00;46;01;23
Brenton
But yeah.

00;46;02;15 - 00;46;33;12
Eva
Chris often has said to me when I'm dying on all those hills that because I wanted to save them from making mistakes and save them from heartache and really irrationally. Chris has said that I am not their Holy Spirit, and so I take personal effects that But don't tell him I said this. But I have also shared that with other friends that have been talking to me about their kids.

00;46;33;12 - 00;46;56;24
Eva
And I said, again, don't tell Chris that. I said that and quoted him. But yeah, it's true. And if they belong to Christ, they have the Holy Spirit and we can teach and guide and instruct. And then the hard thing, especially I think for moms, is to step back and let the Holy Spirit do his work.

00;46;56;29 - 00;47;15;02
Brenton
Yeah, Yeah, that's good. So, Chris, this message was very relevant to an individual's legacy. But as we look beyond ourselves and consider family and church legacy, what are some barriers that we should be aware of?

00;47;15;23 - 00;47;35;22
Chris
Well, I will first say that we're going to have more opportunity to talk about this in the next couple of weeks, and particularly on the last week of the series. And then in the legacy workshop we're going to do on May 10th. Keep promoting that. I hope many people will come out for that. I would just point to two things.

00;47;36;10 - 00;48;14;06
Chris
First will be family practices and for moms and dads and get their grandma and grandpa in there too, for sure, but especially for for moms and dads thinking about and the rhythms that we create in in our homes that our family give themselves to, like what are the regular things that we're going to make a part of our lives that will lead to a godly legacy being passed on to our children and grandchildren and hopefully long beyond that.

00;48;14;27 - 00;48;47;25
Chris
And so again, I'll talk more about this, but the habits that we give ourselves to form us and I would include that in the habits, the environments that we place ourselves in. And those are the things that help to form the kind of people that we become. And so I think it's just very, very important for parents to think about what are those regular things and regular environments that we find ourselves in.

00;48;47;25 - 00;49;18;08
Chris
And I harp on this all the time, but I'll just use this the easiest example. If on Sunday morning we're regularly missing church to go to the to the soccer game, the baseball game, the, you know, the cheerleading competition, whatever the then that is a rhythm where we're giving ourselves to those things and those things become more important than the things of the things of the Lord.

00;49;19;08 - 00;49;46;02
Chris
And again, I don't want to be legalistic here because we weren't even legalistic with our own kids in regards to this is like, you know, you're never, ever missing church for something like that. But Your kids will the term discern from your habits and practices what's important to you and and so we've just got to really look very carefully at those kind of things.

00;49;46;02 - 00;50;10;14
Chris
And a lot of those revolve around the church. But there are other things, whether it's, you know, family times that we're going to spend together and how we're going to actually engage in different things together as a family. But that would be one. The other thing that we need to be aware of, and maybe this ties into it a little bit, but you mentioned the church legacy.

00;50;10;14 - 00;50;43;04
Chris
Is that even the consumer mindset creeping into the church and where we have this this idea that church actually is in our church gathering and I'm talking about specifically are about like they're about us, they're about the individual, they're about what are people going to get get out of it. And so just talking about this from a a church leader standpoint, we got to be really careful that we don't design put our services together in a way that gives the idea this is about for you to come and consume.

00;50;44;08 - 00;51;11;06
Chris
This is about entertainment. And there's a real temptation to to do that. And you can give plenty of examples of this, the churches that go this way, and it's like, we're going to do what we need to do to attract people to to to keep people engaged and entertain people rather than we're going to do what we need to form people into the image of Christ.

00;51;11;26 - 00;51;32;01
Chris
And so instead of thinking about what do people want, we need to think about what people need. And what people need is dictated to us by the scriptures. And so, you know, this has things to do with like, you know, what kind of songs are we going to sing and what different elements are we going to have in the service.

00;51;32;01 - 00;51;52;11
Chris
And also this factors into different type of ministries we're going to have and we're going to focus on and all of those kind of things. And I'm saying that we get it right. Here is something we got to continue to wrestle with, we think a lot. And Brenton, we're involved in these discussions. We think a lot about, you know, what kind of songs are we going to write, are we going to sing in?

00;51;52;11 - 00;52;13;08
Chris
And of course, even like messages and series and those kind of things. So one of the primary reasons that we preach on almost always through a book of the Bible and even when we're in a series like we're in right now, which is a topical series, but there will be a passage of scripture that we're going to teach through, right?

00;52;13;13 - 00;52;22;22
Chris
Every week. We're never just going to talk about, you know, money and I'm going to, you know, get up there and pair it. Dave Ramsey to everybody.

00;52;23;19 - 00;52;23;27
Brenton
Right?

00;52;25;19 - 00;52;32;01
Chris
We are. We'll talk about money, but let's go to saying Corinthians eight nine, see what Paul has to say about that. And there's other passages. So the couple of things.

00;52;32;08 - 00;52;40;05
Brenton
Yeah, yeah, those are good thoughts. And just again, intentionality, especially in our families. Yeah, it's good.

00;52;40;16 - 00;52;43;08
Eva
I have a couple of practical things based on what he just said.

00;52;43;08 - 00;52;43;24
Brenton
Absolutely.

00;52;44;12 - 00;52;46;27
Chris
Are you going to correct me? No.

00;52;46;27 - 00;53;12;23
Eva
Application is practically speaking in. He brought up the sports on Sunday morning things. And, you know, back when we were younger, that wasn't a thing. We had a Wednesday night conflicts, but we didn't have Sunday morning conflicts. Now it seems like if you're in travel or club of any sort, it's it almost feels strategically placed on Sunday morning.

00;53;14;05 - 00;53;44;03
Eva
And so, again, I'm sure there were times when we did not adhere to that. Like Chris mentioned. But as a general rule, we were very open to the coaches and said if there's tournaments on Sunday mornings, we won't be there. But we also wanted our kids to learn commitment and responsibility. And so those things came to a head on Sunday morning sometimes.

00;53;44;03 - 00;54;07;19
Eva
And so one of the things I just mentioned this to a group of parents yesterday actually that one of the things that we did was wherever the tournament was is again, probably an hour and a half away. And if there was a Bible believing church that we knew was that we could attend, we would get up really, really early, drive there, go to the service and then go to the soccer game.

00;54;08;01 - 00;54;32;20
Eva
And it wasn't our home church, which we would prefer to have been at, but we also did not neglect the service of the Lord that day, that morning. It's an official service and sometimes that meant they missed one of the three games that morning. But the coach was we never had any pushback from that because the coach was grateful we were making an effort.

00;54;32;29 - 00;55;03;27
Eva
And they also respected our faith as far as our personal commitment to it. So that practically speaking, that was one way that we honored that and yet still talk commitment and responsibility to the kids in their various sports teams. So I don't know if that's helpful to anybody. Yeah, but then the second thing you were talking about is the consumerism in church.

00;55;03;27 - 00;55;49;01
Eva
And again, practically speaking, well, the way we handled that with parenting was as early on, we spoke to our kids about what how they can get involved in church, whether it be, you know, picking up the communion cups on a Sunday so that the deacons didn't have to go do that or or play in worship ministries or, you know, a serving in any kind of capacity so that they again, not perfectly, but that they would have in their vernacular, how can I play a part?

00;55;49;01 - 00;56;11;08
Eva
How can I serve so that they didn't go in saying that this is about me, I need to be entertained, as Chris said. So that was again, just a practical thing that we did early on. And it doesn't have to be you know, you're a teenager now, you can play in the band, so to speak, or now you can work in the children's ministry.

00;56;11;08 - 00;56;36;08
Eva
Like I said, when they were really young, to pick up that that cup that somebody dropped, go pick up those communion cups and go turn the light off in that bathroom. Just little things. We just I personally looked for things that I could say, Hey, that would be helpful to somebody if you would do it. Not because I was telling them to do it, but that it would be helpful to somebody.

00;56;36;15 - 00;56;49;09
Brenton
Yeah, that's really just or like making it obvious that those are your priorities to your kids. Right? And like you said about traveling for soccer or whatever, you're you're making that a priority.

00;56;49;13 - 00;56;50;27
Eva
But it's going to revolve around church.

00;56;50;28 - 00;56;55;20
Brenton
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're to get our priorities straight and we're going to teach you that.

00;56;56;25 - 00;56;59;19
Eva
We tried. We tried.

00;56;59;19 - 00;57;35;07
Brenton
You know, I appreciate that. It's a lot of good wisdom. Yeah. I appreciate both of you coming today. I think it was a good discussion. So we'll talk to you next week. Thanks, guys.