Episode 11: Justification by Faith, Part 2

00;00;02;16 - 00;00;23;22
Brenton
This is further a weekly show for the people of Harmony Bible Church, where we seek to revisit and expand on Sunday sermons with the goal of growing deeper in biblical truth that transforms our lives. Welcome back to Further. I'm Brenton Grimm. And today we're back to just the two of us. So welcome, Chris.

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Chris
Well, it's great to be back with you, Brenton. Looking forward to a great discussion we're going to have today.

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Brenton
Yeah, so we're coming off of a great Easter weekend. So a lot of baptisms, a lot of people. So it was it was fun weekend and I came away with a little bit of a cold on it. So first I want to start with this upcoming series. So Chris, can you tell us a little bit about the series?

00;00;49;17 - 00;00;53;11
Brenton
And it's called Leaving a Godly Legacy. What are you hoping to see come out of it?

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Chris
Well, I'm hoping that we're all going to be challenged to think about our lives and to use the word legacy. What kind of legacy we are living, leaving behind every minute of every day of our lives matters. And there's really no throwaway moments. And so we want to really consider how we can take the the moments that God gives us.

00;01;22;26 - 00;01;46;09
Chris
And of course, the time that we have is limited here and how we use the limited time that we have to make an impact for the kingdom and leave a legacy behind, one that will have an internal impact, one that will bless a lot of people and one that will bring a lot of honoring glory to the Lord.

00;01;46;09 - 00;02;23;09
Chris
And in turn, as Jesus talks about in Matthew six, lay up treasures for ourselves in heaven. So and I was just thinking today as my mind began to work on, you know, where we're going to be headed and what I'm going to say in this series about how there are so many different things in the world today, so many different pressures, so many different enemies, which is one of the things we're going to talk about in the series that really work against us living in a way that's going to leave a godly legacy behind.

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Chris
And I think it's always easy to say it's more challenging at this time than any time in history, but it certainly seems that way to me, at least in my lifetime. And there are just so many enemies to living a godly Christian life. And so it seems like it's just the right time for us to be able to talk about this.

00;02;50;09 - 00;03;15;00
Chris
And something else that I'm really excited about is the Lord has seen fit here over the last year or two to bring a lot of young adults into our church. There's a pretty big influx of like 18 to maybe 25 year olds, and I'm not exactly sure where they're all coming from. Some of them are returning to the church after going to college.

00;03;15;00 - 00;03;36;13
Chris
Some of them are going to college in our area. Some of them are just they're new people coming to our church. But there are dozens and dozens of them and they seem to be interested, very interested in following the Lord and walking with the Lord. So I'm excited to really be able to speak to them about how they can how they can do that.

00;03;36;13 - 00;03;57;28
Chris
And so we're going to talk and maybe just outline the series real quick. We're going to start this Sunday. We're talking about the need for a godly legacy. And then we're going to talk about the enemies of a godly legacy. We're going to kind of call those enemies out, make sure that we're aware of what those things are that may keep us from living out of the legacy.

00;03;57;28 - 00;04;17;00
Chris
Then we're gonna talk about the heart of a godly legacy, because the heart is the key point in all of this is we've got to have the kind of heart that wants to actually leave that godly legacy. And then the last message, which I think is going to be really, really practical and really helpful, will be the rhythms or the habits of a godly legacy.

00;04;17;00 - 00;04;42;15
Chris
So you can you can want as much as possible to have a godly legacy. But if you don't actually put habits in place to actually develop them, then it's going to be all for naught. And to help with that, we're going to follow up the series with a special workshop on May the 10th, Wednesday evening, May the 10th at our Danville campus, where we will get really, really practical.

00;04;42;15 - 00;04;56;12
Chris
And I just want to encourage everybody that kind of put that on your calendar right now, circle it and plan to be with us on that night. We'll get more details for that. But May 10th, Wednesday night, Danville campus is going to be a great evening for us to really dig into this.

00;04;56;24 - 00;05;19;01
Brenton
Yeah, I'm excited about the series and I think it's it is it is timely and it's a good question whether that's something that's more needed now or or if it's always kind of been like it is now. But one thing that we can definitely say is it's it's more in our face than it ever has been. And so yeah, it's an important topic.

00;05;19;01 - 00;05;57;10
Brenton
And so, yeah, we're, we're all excited about that. So jumping in to last Sunday, you brought up Galatians 614, and as I looked at that, I realized that our boasting can be really sneaky at times. He's he's talking Paul here is talking about the Judaism. And in verse 13 he says, For even those who are circumcised do not themselves keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised, that they may boast in your flesh.

00;05;57;10 - 00;06;22;29
Brenton
And these people are seemingly doing good things. They're there preaching to people about how to keep the law. And then they're boasting is in the success of getting people to follow through with it. And Paul's problem with it, apart from the circumcision, as a means to salvation, that the duty that the Judaism were preaching seems to be that they were boasting in their own works.

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Brenton
And and I guess my question is, how often do we in the church do that and, and specific ethically, I mean, coming off of this Easter weekend where where we saw almost 30 people baptized and we saw tons of people and it was it was a great weekend. How easy is it for us to look at that and say, wow, look at what harmony is doing?

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Brenton
And obviously the correct response to it would be awe and wonder and God's grace in these people's lives. But how do we guard against boasting in ourselves, even if it's about really good things?

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Chris
Well, that's a really good question. And in fact, I'd say it's a great question and one we certainly need to wrestle with. I want to begin, though, by just celebrating a little bit what God did this weekend and a lot a lot of people here that were able to celebrate the resurrection and be able to participate in baptism arms and be able to hear the gospel.

00;07;22;21 - 00;08;00;18
Chris
So we rejoice in that and we do for sure want to remember that it's what God is doing. It's not what we're doing. And so we've got to be really, really careful about that and how we do that. And I guess there are maybe numerous answers here, but the first thing I would say is just for for me and I'm probably more prone to this than anyone given my role is to look at all that that's going on at Harmony Bible Church and to be able to, in some way think that that is me doing it.

00;08;00;29 - 00;08;27;16
Chris
And the truth is that it's not it's God's grace, but it's it's really, really hard not to think that that has something significant to do with Chris Carr. And so for me personally, the Scriptures are are absolutely essential. And what I mean by that is I've just got to make sure that I'm in the word and in passages that are reminding me that it's not me.

00;08;28;11 - 00;08;51;29
Chris
So a couple of little and then I'll just share first Corinthians four seven. Paul says to the Corinthians, who are boasting in themselves and the gifts that they had and how great things were going in Corinth. He says, What do you have that you did not receive? And and he says, if, if then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

00;08;52;10 - 00;09;20;18
Chris
And he's he's talking very specifically to this issue. So everything that I have and everything that Harmony Bible Church has is a gift that God gives us, gives us, and we get the blessing of being a part of it. We get the blessing of God using us. But He's not even using us because of us. He's just choosing to do that in his sovereignty and in his goodness and his grace toward us.

00;09;22;13 - 00;09;46;12
Chris
And so I just regretfully remind myself literally of her scribblings for seven. There's another passage in John chapter three. I love this story where some of John the Baptist is disciples are following Jesus and started to follow Jesus and people are just going to Jesus. And some of John's inner circle come to him as as all these people are going over to him.

00;09;46;12 - 00;10;07;21
Chris
And John says, you know, a person can cannot do anything but what they receive from heaven. And then he says he must increase and I must decrease. And John had a lot that he could have potentially boasted in. In fact, Jesus says there's none born greater among women than John the Baptist. And yet John's put them back to Jesus.

00;10;07;21 - 00;10;27;15
Chris
And then another passage, Philippians Chapter three. And I almost brought this up on Sunday. It plays very, very much to what we were talking about. Just didn't have time. But in Philippians chapter three, Paul kind of lays out his spiritual resumé and he's kind of saying, you know, all these things that he had done, that he had accomplished.

00;10;28;21 - 00;10;51;10
Chris
He was talking about, honestly, his, you know, his family heritage, just all of these kind of things. And then he says this, But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. And indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ. Jesus, my Lord, for his sake, I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as a rubbish in order.

00;10;51;10 - 00;11;20;18
Chris
And listen to this carefully that I may gain Christ and be found in Him not having a righteousness of my own. That comes from a law, but that which comes through faith in Christ. The righteousness from God that depends on faith. Very, very similar to what we talked about on Sunday. But I want to point out here that he says that all of these things that I that I used to boast in all these things that I that I did all the things that were, you know, about me in me done by me.

00;11;21;17 - 00;11;46;10
Chris
I just count on his loss. And then he says, I just actually consider them as rubbish. And what's interesting, we read that in our English translations and it seems like a rather benign word, but the actual translation of it would be literally translated. It would be a word that all of us are familiar with, but would get me in trouble if I were to actually say it publicly.

00;11;46;10 - 00;12;26;12
Chris
And I don't have. But yeah, yeah, it's it's the word. The Greek word is skubal. And and it's a very literal translation is, you know, a word that refuses. Yes. Yeah. Worse. But, but the point here is, is he's, he's vague basically saying like all of that kind of stuff when it compares is compared to gaining Christ and the righteousness that I found in him that he's come to the place where he says it really is meaningless to me now.

00;12;26;12 - 00;12;51;19
Chris
It wasn't ultimately meaningless to him, but it's just in comparison. And so and the reason for that is, is that he recognizes that none of those things could make him righteous and none of those things could make him right with God. None of them could free him from condemnation. None of them can give him real a real sense of identity and worth and salvation that he was longing and he was looking for.

00;12;52;10 - 00;13;18;28
Chris
And sort of to answer your question, the first thing I would say is we've just got to go back to the scriptures over and over again. And then I would say the second thing is we've got to have people in our lives, and this has been really key for me is that actually can help to keep you, keep you humble and people who can challenge you, people who when they see you boasting and in things, can call you out about that.

00;13;18;28 - 00;13;47;21
Chris
And you have to be willing to open yourself up to that to pursue those kind of relationships. And I will tell you that the more authority that you have, the harder that that that it is to find people who are willing to do that. And so the more you actually have to pursue it, because when people who are in authority, who have what we would call power, it's intimidating to people.

00;13;47;21 - 00;14;22;11
Chris
And that's actually doubly dangerous. And this is one of the reasons why we see people in power fall and into pride and to other things so often is because it it it creates a space between us and other people. Authority tends to do that. And if we're not intentional about breaking down that barrier and pursuing people and asking for their, you know, power as a wounds of a friend, you know, or good for us, then that separation grows and then then you get in more trouble.

00;14;22;29 - 00;14;30;21
Chris
And so I would say the word, I would say community. Yeah. And I think those are the first two places I would go.

00;14;30;24 - 00;14;57;14
Brenton
Yeah, that's a, that's a really good answer. And that what you were just talking about there has become a unfortunately a very common story, one that we have big churches that, you know, great things are coming out of, but the leaders or are celebrating those things as victories for themselves. And yeah it's and having accountability in that I think is is vital.

00;14;57;20 - 00;15;27;21
Chris
So yeah yeah and I think that having people that you are under their authority and so it's it is not just for me it's not just opening myself up and asking giving people permission, so to speak, to cold call things out of my life. But it's also putting people over. You're placing yourself under other people's authority. And that's something that all of us have to do.

00;15;29;12 - 00;15;59;14
Chris
And it's one of the reasons why not to get on the soapbox here. But church membership is is so important is that we need people that are shepherding us and have the authority that we've given permission, that when we go off off track, that they can come in and hopefully gently say, Hey, what's going on here? And one thing I hope is clear is like I I'm under the authority of the elder team here.

00;15;59;14 - 00;16;14;14
Chris
So there's there's no one person in Harmony Bible Church that just gets to do whatever they want to do and doesn't have to submit to authority. And that that includes me. And in some ways it includes me more than more than anybody.

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Brenton
So yeah, yeah. And that's good. I think we see it on large scales, but we but we also see it in our in our own personal lives.

00;16;21;17 - 00;16;47;21
Chris
And maybe one other thing that I would add here too, is I think we've got to look to the past. And the past is a good reminder, probably in all of our lives and in the life of our church is we can look back and see that the rough days in the past. There are times where we got off track.

00;16;47;25 - 00;17;27;24
Chris
There were times where there were division, there was times where we fell into sin. I'm blurring the lines between personal and corporate here. They all they all apply. And we're just going to say that in all of our lives. And I would say in every church that I have been a part of in my life, I can look back and say it's only by the grace of God that that church is at the place that it is today or came through those things because of sin, because of mistakes, because of circumstances at times poor leadership or division in leadership.

00;17;28;11 - 00;17;52;06
Chris
And so if we if we are willing to kind of look historically and just see how God's faithfulness works in the midst of our sin and mess that it should be a really, really good reminder that we can't boast in the fact that we're doing great because of us, because it was left up to us, things would would be a mess.

00;17;52;06 - 00;17;56;18
Chris
And yet God is good and gracious and we just rejoice in that. Yeah.

00;17;57;03 - 00;18;31;06
Brenton
Yeah, absolutely. It's really good. You mentioned on Sunday that the justification does more for us than just getting us to heaven. And it seems like this has been one of the main methods used by the church for getting people to convert. And it's kind of been, I guess personally one of my pet peeves of methods that at least when I was growing up, you know, we'd be would be preached at, at length about the horrors and the tortures you'll experience in hell.

00;18;31;20 - 00;18;53;24
Brenton
And then once, once everyone's scared enough, then we proceed to the altar call and maybe that doesn't happen as much from the pulpit anymore, but it still does seem to be a main way that Christians are communicating the gospel to unbelievers. Um, I guess my question is, are we selling the gospel short when we present it as a way to avoid hell?

00;18;54;23 - 00;19;25;25
Chris
Absolutely. I think it's actually an incomplete gospel and that as I mentioned on Sunday, it is true that when we place our faith in Christ and are justified and are saved, that we no longer need to fear going to hell and we have a future in heaven that our name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. And that means that we will spend eternity with the Lord.

00;19;26;11 - 00;19;54;02
Chris
And yet the Gospel is so much more than that. It has so much more for us than that. There are really a lot of different ways I could talk about this, and it is actually a an area of passion that I would share with you. And and so one way I could talk about it is is in we've got this idea that salvation this is something I was trying to bring out on Sunday and I wish I had more time to talk about it.

00;19;55;07 - 00;20;18;02
Chris
But salvation, we again, we think we tend to think of simply being safe from hell and going to heaven. And yet there are different elements of our salvation. So I can look at the fact that I have been saved. I am being saved and I will be saved. So you maybe think about it in terms of the of sin.

00;20;18;02 - 00;20;43;15
Chris
In the past I was saved from the penalty of sin. In the present. I'm being saved from the power of sin. And in the future I will be saved from the presence of sin. So the moment that we place our faith in Christ, we're saved from the penalty of sin. We no longer face separation from God. And that's really justification if you think about it there.

00;20;44;03 - 00;21;11;01
Chris
And then currently I'm being freed from the power of sin. And the power of sin was broken at the cross in the moment that I, I trusted Christ, but I still wrestle with sin. I'm still struggling with it. And through sanctification, I'm growing more in the likeness of Christ. And so that power is being becoming broken more and more in my life.

00;21;11;27 - 00;21;39;17
Chris
And then one day, either when I die or when Christ returns, I will be free from the presence of sin. I will be saved from the presence of sin. So there's that way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that I real issue is that sin has separated us from God and that salvation in salvation we are being restored to a relationship with him.

00;21;40;01 - 00;22;03;12
Chris
So our primary issue is you can go back to the garden. Adam and Eve walked with God. They converse with him face to face. They experienced a perfect, unbroken relationship with him. The moment basis in that relationship is is broken. Sin enters in, the curse enters with it. And when we come to the end of Genesis three, we find they're kicked out of the garden.

00;22;03;23 - 00;22;28;28
Chris
And there are a couple of angels that are guarding the way so they can't get back in. And and then what we find though, in the rest of the Bible, the Bible story is what God does to bring people back to himself. And so the couple of different passages for Peter 318 for Christ also suffer once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous that he might bring us to God.

00;22;29;00 - 00;22;55;03
Chris
Yeah. And so and, and so the moment that we are say we are brought back into a relationship with God. Now that relationship is not we don't get the full experience of that relationship that that will be awaiting when we get to heaven. But we can begin we do begin to experience that relationship that right now is called reconciliation is again a theological word, but we're reconciled to God.

00;22;55;03 - 00;23;22;01
Chris
So also security in chapter five. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The oldest passed away. Behold the new has come. All this is from God who through Christ, reconciled us to Himself and gave us the Ministry of Reconciliation that is in Christ. God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

00;23;22;08 - 00;23;56;18
Chris
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ. God making His appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. That's what salvation is about. Being reconciled to God, and we can begin to experience the benefits of that reconciliation now. And we're meant to now. And when we I think that that when we talk so much in terms mostly of heaven, of going to heaven, a lot of times we're talking about what were you like the things that we're going to get our materialism takes over.

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Brenton
Yeah.

00;23;57;16 - 00;24;10;15
Chris
Right. And and so that's a I don't know that put it in danger, but it's again, it kind of misses the point a little bit and feeds.

00;24;10;15 - 00;24;19;17
Brenton
Into our our desires or our our worldly desires right now. It's just it's an extension of that and themes into it. Yeah.

00;24;19;26 - 00;24;54;20
Chris
No it does. But here's what we've got to understand is that that actually is harmful to us because then once again, we're looking for we're digging systems. Isaiah talks about that hold no water, because those kind of things, they are not where true joy and meaning and identity salvation are actually founded. And yes, heaven's going to be wonderful with all the things we're going to get to, to experience.

00;24;54;20 - 00;25;24;00
Chris
You know, creation is just in all the beauty and the glory. It will be. We'll be perfectly healthy, will have perfect relationships with other people. I mean, there's going to be a lot of wonderful things. And we we actually should desire and look to those things. But the the issues, if God's not in it, then it's not really going to have an impact.

00;25;24;00 - 00;25;48;05
Chris
We can think about it this way. Heaven is where God is and where we get to experience His presence in full. And I love it. John Piper says he's got a book called God is the Gospel. God is the Good News. And and the reason he says that is because the good news is meant to bring us to God.

00;25;48;05 - 00;26;14;24
Chris
So he says this What makes all the events of Good Friday and Easter and all the promises they secure? Good news is that they lead us to God. And when we get there, it is God Himself who will satisfy our souls forever. Everything else in the Gospel is meant to display God's glory and remove every obstacle in Him, such as His wrath and in us such as our rebellion, so that we can joy and joy him forever.

00;26;15;03 - 00;26;31;26
Chris
God is the gospel that is. He is what makes the good news good. Nothing worse can make the gospel good news. God is the final and highest gift that makes the good news. Good. Until until people use the gospel to get God, they use it wrongly.

00;26;31;26 - 00;26;35;08
Brenton
Yeah, I have a lot of things rolling around in my head right now, but.

00;26;36;00 - 00;26;36;20
Chris
Just roll with.

00;26;36;20 - 00;27;03;13
Brenton
Them. Well, you know, I think it's it's maybe a little a little convenient how we can treat this sometimes of, Hey, you you want you want peace, right? You want you want to see or your family members that have past you want you want all these good things that heaven, that heaven has. Jesus will get you there. And so that that's the message we preach.

00;27;03;13 - 00;27;32;28
Brenton
And we preach Jesus as a means to get the things that we want. Instead of preaching Jesus. I'm looking at second Peter right now. He says His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature.

00;27;33;13 - 00;27;55;03
Brenton
Having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desires. I think we probably need to be careful about what partakers of the divine nature means, and we could probably spend a lot of time talking about what what that means. But and there is there if, if, if Jesus is a means to getting what we want rather than Jesus is, is the goal.

00;27;55;03 - 00;28;15;12
Brenton
Jesus is what we want and we want to become partakers of the divine nature, then I think we have a backwards way of presenting, presenting the gospel. And I think it applies the same that if we're mean, you don't want to go to hell, you don't, you don't want this, so, so do this. It's just not a compelling message.

00;28;15;12 - 00;28;21;09
Brenton
And I don't I don't think it works through the nineties when I was here and I don't think it works now either.

00;28;22;20 - 00;28;29;08
Chris
Yeah, I think what you're saying is that we shouldn't view Jesus as the means, but rather the end.

00;28;30;08 - 00;28;30;25
Brenton
Absolutely.

00;28;30;28 - 00;28;57;13
Chris
And I think one of the encouraging things I see again, I'm going to go back to our young adults and it really can include teenagers and even younger is I think that they have a real desire to want Jesus as the end and and helping them to understand what that means and how that actually becomes a really reality in our lives.

00;28;57;26 - 00;29;27;10
Chris
One of my big concerns in this whole discussion is, is when we simply are preaching the gospel and in the terms of this is a way to be saved from from hell and to gain heaven is I've just oftentimes seen the reality that people do not feel real. They don't find it real necessary to live for Christ. Now it's like, okay, I'm going to heaven when I die.

00;29;27;10 - 00;29;57;17
Chris
I can't go on my way and do my own thing. There's not they just don't have a compelling compulsion. I think about the second resilience five again, I quote so in Corinthians five, probably more than any chapter in the Bible where there's so much in it and verses 14 and 15, Paul talks about how the love of Christ compels us because we're convinced that one died and he died for all that we should no longer live for ourselves, but for him who died and rose again.

00;29;58;03 - 00;30;22;15
Chris
And so why did he die for us? So we could go to heaven? Yes, but that's not what it. That's not what it says there. He died for us. So that we might live for for him. So our lives might be all about him. And the great thing for us about that is, is that when we get that and when we live as he is the end, then all of those blessings and things that we're looking for actually come along with it.

00;30;23;05 - 00;30;47;19
Chris
And so the thing is, is if you if you use Jesus as a means that you're not going to you're not going to actually get what you're looking for. But if you use Jesus and you use this the wrong way to put it, but if your goal and your desire is to get Jesus above all else, then you know the rest of those things become come along with it.

00;30;47;19 - 00;31;06;01
Chris
So I go back to the Beatitudes to Blessed are the poor in spirit, the merciful, the peacemakers, and all of their things. And so when when we we want the kind of things that Jesus wants in our lives, when we were chasing after those things, those blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, then we're that's the blessed life.

00;31;06;05 - 00;31;29;09
Chris
And we all want a blessed life. Our version of the blessed life in the in in American 21st century culture is all those things we're looking for in heaven. We want them now. And that's the end. That's the blessed life. And the blessed life is is actually walking in the footsteps of Jesus, walk, walking after him, pursuing him.

00;31;29;23 - 00;31;34;12
Chris
And that's where the the true happiness and true joy comes from.

00;31;34;17 - 00;31;59;12
Brenton
Yeah, yeah. I think you're right that young, young people today, I think the generations have kind of switched. And this this generation is far more about authenticity we than than generations have been in the past. And just from my view. And so I think the more honest we can be about what what is actually there want to say what we're selling.

00;31;59;12 - 00;32;16;11
Brenton
But but what we're offering in in the gospel as we proclaim it, I think the better the better off we're going to be in, the more honest Wolf will be in in communicating it. And I guess I'll also say that I kind of paint with a broad brush when I speak about speak about the nineties and.

00;32;17;29 - 00;32;19;08
Chris
Your child of the nice.

00;32;19;08 - 00;32;28;05
Brenton
Ring I am. But that's obviously not what what everyone has done. So but it is certainly something that I and something that I experienced.

00;32;28;22 - 00;32;57;26
Chris
Yeah, I'm really, really encouraged. And this actually this statement might surprise some of the older people that are listening to that, I guess. But I'm really encouraged by some of the things that I see in young people. He is the phrase young people because it makes me sound really old, but I'm really, really encouraged. They definitely have their struggles and they have some struggles in ways that generations before did.

00;32;57;26 - 00;33;34;13
Chris
And we could talk about some of that too. Some of those struggles have been created by my generation, but but they do seem to have a real desire for for something more than the like just material blessings in material things. They're not as materialistic as as as we were are maybe and again, it's not like they're better or anything like that, but they do seem to have a longing for something more than the material.

00;33;34;13 - 00;34;05;10
Chris
And a longing to truly know Christ and to to follow after him. And it makes me excited for really even the future of our church and certainly there are challenges that the young people are facing today that we did not face when it comes to things like gender and sexuality. And the social media creates unique challenges and we've got to figure out how to disciple them in and in through these things.

00;34;05;10 - 00;34;26;23
Chris
Legacy series hopefully going to help us with that. But there's also an opportunity there. And so there's a lot of people who are kind of pooh poohing which generation are we in now? Do you do you do you remember which one of this is? Is it the Z generation Z? But regardless.

00;34;27;03 - 00;34;28;05
Brenton
Generation Alpha.

00;34;28;11 - 00;34;28;28
Chris
Alpha.

00;34;29;09 - 00;34;29;25
Brenton
I haven't even heard.

00;34;29;25 - 00;34;58;21
Chris
That would be me either. But there's a lot of people pooh poohing and it really worried and really concerned. And yet I think there's just huge potential and I think it's very possible that the Lord is going to blow us away 30 or 40 years from now, from what He's done with the kids that are, you know, 0 to 24 and particularly at Harmony Bible Church.

00;34;58;28 - 00;35;31;19
Brenton
Yeah, well, Christ will continue to build this church. It's great. On Sunday you talked quite a bit about faith, and one thing that you said was that it's not our faith that saves us, but it's the object of our faith. And you alluded to people that have sort of a generic faith, and I seem to hear a lot about it, at least from celebrities with things like moralist, take Therapeutic Deism, or or maybe it's just referred to as spiritualism, and you'll hear things like, I'm not a Christian, but I'm I'm spiritual.

00;35;32;05 - 00;35;52;15
Brenton
But I wonder this kind of thinking is more common than I than I have thought in the past and and maybe just doesn't get verbalized. The kind of the kind of faith that might seem indistinguishable from Christianity until you dig a little bit into what they actually think. How how should we approach this kind of thinking?

00;35;52;15 - 00;35;59;10
Chris
Yeah, that's a really good question. I might first ask you to define moralistic therapeutic decisions, sure.

00;35;59;10 - 00;36;30;01
Brenton
But yeah, I guess think Oprah. Mm hmm. Deism meaning that God is a God that kind of created and he created the world and just kind of said, go and doesn't doesn't interact with his creation. He just kind of observes from afar. And so the moralistic therapeutic side is this is generally where we get our morals from, from from this kind of out there.

00;36;30;01 - 00;36;46;06
Brenton
God, that doesn't really doesn't necessarily really care about us. And it's also kind of therapeutic. So that's where we kind of we can go with our problems and maybe kind of feel get, get some good feelings about it. It's it seems to be very squishy and not much there.

00;36;46;27 - 00;37;02;29
Chris
Yeah, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it basically is also the idea that God is there to provide us with what we want. Sure. Is like whatever we can go to him when we were in need or when we want something. But we don't expect him to interfere in our lives.

00;37;03;04 - 00;37;03;08
Brenton
Yeah.

00;37;03;11 - 00;37;04;14
Chris
And where we live.

00;37;04;18 - 00;37;08;05
Brenton
It's a very malleable god. It can be whatever you kind of want it to be.

00;37;08;12 - 00;37;42;04
Chris
Yeah. So I think that that actually does come into play in in a very significant way today because I think that there's a lot of people who actually believe in a god and he may somewhat resemble the God of the Bible and in some ways a God who loves me, maybe who loves us, or a God who maybe will be for us when we're need we need him.

00;37;42;04 - 00;38;09;22
Chris
And you can just think about, well, here's a great example. I don't know if you remember back in the Buffalo Bills that got when he got hit in the football game earlier this year and he literally like died on the field. Yeah. And they brought him back to life and just all the people that automatically were praying and literally on ESPN which tends to be one of the more godless stations in terms of, you know, we don't go there to help a guy.

00;38;09;22 - 00;38;27;23
Chris
We shy away from all that kind of stuff. They actually allow one of the, you know, talking heads to actually pray at that in lieu of his during halftime or when it was going whatever. And and actually, I think the guy that prays is actually a true believer but that ESPN allow this ad and pull it off the air or anything.

00;38;27;23 - 00;38;33;20
Chris
And so all of a sudden people are praying and praying. Praying and and everybody believes in prayer. Yeah, great.

00;38;33;22 - 00;38;34;26
Brenton
You don't need them until you need them.

00;38;35;04 - 00;39;13;13
Chris
Right? But but, but praying to who are we praying to? Right. And and it's like it's just about prayer. The fetus in prayer, not in the the person that you are, you are praying to. And I just I mean, I use them in illustration on Sunday. I don't know if it worked or not about about flying. Right. But it it faith and hope and different things like that.

00;39;13;13 - 00;40;07;03
Chris
They they don't really have any meaning unless they're in an object that actually can be trusted and can actually fulfill your your, your trust, your hope what your what you longing for and what you're what you're looking for. And yeah, I, I think there's this is a to this is an area where apologetics I think is important. It can be really, really helpful and trying to help people to understand that there's a need to have faith in a specific I hate to use the word object because it's really a person, but it needs to be in something that is real, in that just kind of an ephemeral, ethereal, maybe a feeling of some God out

00;40;07;03 - 00;40;07;29
Chris
there somewhere.

00;40;08;18 - 00;40;35;16
Brenton
Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if some of the motivation behind it is the demand for inclusivity, right? So we have people that don't like the exclusive nature of of Christianity that there's only one way to God and Jesus as a mediator to God. And, you know, it just feels way too exclusive that we need more avenues for for people to do this.

00;40;35;16 - 00;40;37;21
Brenton
And I wonder if that's where some of it comes from.

00;40;38;20 - 00;41;14;11
Chris
Right. And you're right. But I, I also say this again, where apologetics into it is like every belief system is exclusive to some degree. And even for people to say, like you're to you know, you're too exclusive there. Yeah, that's actually be an exclusive. The great thing about Christianity is that it's inclusively exclusive, which means that even we talked about for it's faith to to all who believe you know and so you have to believe so it's it's only for those who believe but it's for all who believe.

00;41;14;27 - 00;41;42;21
Chris
And at the end of the day, if our faith is not in a trustworthy object, then it has no meaning and no and no power to save. And where we have to go back and we have to really wrestle with and this is where I did try to end on on Sunday, is is the God of the Bible trustworthy?

00;41;44;05 - 00;42;11;13
Chris
And I go even further, is Jesus a real person? And Did he did he really lived? He really died? Did he really rise again? And there's lots and lots of evidence that that is the case. And so people really in some ways needed to do their their homework and look into those things.

00;42;11;13 - 00;42;37;04
Brenton
Yeah, yeah, you're right. It's a it's that is the case for apologetics and being consistent in our beliefs and not. Yeah it's like I said earlier it's it always ends up in very squishy language that doesn't ultimately go anywhere. And so that's bringing consistency and bringing the scripture to bear on these subjects. We really go a long way.

00;42;38;15 - 00;43;14;07
Brenton
So that's all I got for today. Appreciate it. And I really do look forward to this legacy series coming up. Thanks for listening and we'll talk to you next week.