Producer: Alright, welcome back to Full PreFrontal, where we are exposing the mysteries of executive function. I am here with our host, Sucheta Kamath. Good morning, my friend. Good to be with you as always.
Sucheta: Great to be with you, Todd. I’m going to tell you a little bit of a story of a client of mine. So, this young man who probably was in his 30s, he was diagnosed with ADHD and brilliant, quite creative. He had a nagging project that was in his life that he was in charge of. He was newly married, I mean, maybe I guess 2-3 years into marriage and they had a baby, and the baby was 8 months old when he brought it to my attention that he needed some help. He said, “My wife was in charge of everything except one thing.” He was very savvy with digital technology so he said, “She said, why don’t you put together a montage for his first birthday and I want you to gather the photographs and all the videos that we’ve been taking? They’re on different cell phones, different clouds, different laptops. Just integrate them, put them together, and that’s all. Rest, I will manage.”
And so week before the child’s birthday, which is four months into our work, he said, “Sucheta, I think I’m going to get divorced.” I said, “What? What happened?” Apparently, his wife has asked for a divorce one week before the big birthday celebration. And the straw that broke the camel’s back was this dang montage. I think the wife got a full sense of his difficulty in organizing, orchestrating, choreographing this tedious, not most difficult but tedious process of putting together.
And the story, I know I don’t mean to say this in a funny way but what was so surprising to him that he did not see the divorce coming. He did not see the disgruntleness the wife was feeling about his lack of competence, cooperation, and their relationship was going south, and the montage, the photographs just turned out to be the straw that broke the camel’s back.
The reason I’m sharing the story is our guest today is a fabulous insightful expert who actually understands this and is going to shed some light as to how relationships work and a little bit of a disconnect between this impending doom and their personal performance and executive dysfunction and how ADHD has a role to play. So, with great joy, it gives me pleasure to invite Dr. Ari Tuckman, who is also a practicing psychologist but also a certified sex therapist who has given more than 350 presentations and routinely earns excellent reviews for his ability to make a complicated information understandable and useful.
I was invited to speak in Texas and their last year’s presenter was Ari, and every audience member who had heard him came and said, “Yeah, it was great but Ari Tuckman was also great.” He is the author of four books which is ADHD After Dark; Better Sex life, Better Relationship – I love that title, can’t wait to talk about that as well. Understand Your Brain, Get More Done; More Attention Less Deficit – which is my favorite book because I’ve read two of your books. And sorry, I had to read all four – and Integrative Treatment for Adult ADHD. His More Attention Less Deficit Podcast has more than 100 episode, and I’m proud to tell you that I heard 43 — so that’s a big accomplishment — and more than 2 million downloads. He is a psychologist and a sex therapist in private practice in Westchester, Pennsylvania, a former board member of CHAD National and a co-chair of CHAD Conference Committee. So, welcome.
Dr. Ari Tuckman: Well, thank you. I am really happy to be here and I’m looking forward to talking about what I think is a really interesting stuff.
Sucheta: Fabulous. So, before we get into the meat of it, I ask this question of all my guests, this podcast is about executive function. We talk a lot about intentional focus, adaptive flexibility, assessing goals, learning to be future-oriented. And so, how are your skills in that area when you were growing up and how were you as a learner and a student? When did you begin to think about your thinking and how did you strategize your learning as you were becoming a learner expert, I guess?
Dr. Tuckman: Sure. Well, I guess one way of putting it is, I’ve always been sort of driven. I have a lot of things that I’m interested in and I really enjoy kind of getting into projects that I don’t necessarily have to. So, like showing up on this podcast is a good example, you know, but I wouldn’t want to miss it. To me, this is really interesting stuff. And I think one of the ways that I’ve been able to do as much as I’ve been able to do is that I am very sort of deadline-oriented and sort of future-oriented, and I think a lot about how different pieces sort of fit into what’s going to happen in the future. So for example, if I have multiple deadlines which I think is probably always the case but I have multiple deadlines, different things going, that thinking about how to sequence them, what needs to happen before what. If I have something to do, I need a chunk of time to really focus in, what chink is that going to be if there’s little [05:51] like returning emails, where do I sprinkle those in. I think I’ve always sort of been feeling that sort of pressure of time passing and wanting to get done everything that I want to get done. And yet, as much as this can make me sound like I’m sort of a stress case, in a lot of ways, I really am not. So, when it comes time to show up for a test or something, I’m usually pretty relaxed because I know I’ve done what I needed to do, and then you just how up and take it. So, it’ kind of an interesting thing. I think I feel a lot of my anxiety in the future, and then when I deal with it, then I’m calm in the present, if that makes sense.
Sucheta: Wow, so you have great executive function is what you’re saying.
Dr. Tuckman: Yeah, pretty much.
Sucheta: And you have great sense of balance and perspective, so to speak. But you are the kind of person who puts in a lot of upfront effort which is what we want our kids and adults that we work with to do, and they somehow have a lot of struggle with that. One more question I have is — how has your clinical work and your expertise and watching day in and day out peoples’ struggles inform or have influenced the way your live your life? So, of course, it sounds like you already bring a lot of strengths to it but has this work influenced the way you approach life?
Dr. Tuckman: Absolutely. So, you know, I see a lot of folks with ADHD and as you know, ADHD is really all about executive functions. And even more so, it’s about executive functions and relations of time, more precisely in relation to kind of balancing the present versus the future. We’re going to talk a bunch more about that but seeing the struggles that my clients have with this on a day-by-day basis, it really just sort of highlights for me the importance of some of the sort of good habits that I do have. And I’m by no means saying I’m perfect but it sort of makes me more diligent because I see every day in the office kind of what are the prices one pays for not being sufficiently diligent or not really applying your executive functions in an intentional kind of a way. So, I don’t know, it’s just sort of being more on top of what needs to be on top of and I think that then helps me kind of in the work that I do with my clients, to help them be more intentional about how they use their executive function.
Sucheta: And also I think based on listening to your voice on the podcast and your approach to advice-giving is, I think you have a great mastery of your own emotionality. That’s coming from equanimity when you are dealing with people who are quite on a rollercoaster. I bet that has a lot to do with it as well, right?
Dr. Tuckman: Absolutely. I had a professor who in graduate school, he wasn’t the best professor in other ways but he did have this one great line where he said, “If there are two people in the room and one of them is anxious, the other need one needs to not be.” Obviously, in this case he was talking about if the client is anxious, as a therapist if you start getting anxious, then you‘re both lost. But it applies to relationships, to adults, it applies to parenting kids, it applies to co-workers or whatever that at least one person needs to be able to sort of manage their emotions well so that both people aren’t sort of swept away in whatever is going on at the moment.
Sucheta: I love that. I’m going to remember to mention that to my clients. So, let’s get started with this idea that in your work, you talk a lot about having better connection to the future self, a sense of kind of continuity with self that changes over time but also is directed towards something bigger than or finalistic — or not even finalistic — but something that adds into your whole value-driven self. So, can we talk a little bit about that — the human struggle that goes into balancing the desire to be in the moment while also considering the future? Why do so many people love being here and it becomes sticky for them to not switch, to constantly toggle between the future you and the current you?
Dr. Tuckman: Yeah, I mean this is really like the fundamental struggle. On the one hand, this is indeed what kind of separates us in many ways from the animals. So, like my dog, I don’t think does a lot of future planning, it doesn’t seem like it but as people, hopefully we’ll do. So, that could be stuff like putting money away for retirement that you won’t spend for 20 or 40 years. Could also be stuff like smoking cigarettes sure seems cool when you’re 15 but dying of lung cancer is kind of bad so maybe I won’t start smoking. But it’s also like little things like it’s 10 o’clock at night, I should really go to bed except I don’t really feel like it and this is sort of fun doing what I’m doing. Or those chocolate cookies sure smell delicious, I would really enjoy eating when riding out but I’m going to think about how I will feel afterwards or how I’ll feel at the end of the week if I’m not meeting my diet goals or something.
So, we’re always balancing pleasure in the moment with what our long-term goals, what our long-term needs are and unfortunately, not always, but there’s a lot of things in the world that you’re really good in the moment but don’t serve us well in the future or it’s the avoidance of pain in the moment that then doesn’t serve us well in the future. So, for example, going and working out when you don’t feel like it is good for you in the future, is good to have done it but it doesn’t feel good to do it, or sitting down and, I don’t know, that guy was just in a conference. So, taking all my receipts and totaling them up and stapling them together is going to be great next March when it’s time to do taxes but at this moment, I probably don’t feel like doing it. So, you don’t want to live so much for the future that you’re not living a life now, although that’s a very much minority position. But the bigger challenge for most of us is how to not live too much in the moment that then we pay a price later or have less of a positive future at some later point.
Sucheta: And I feel that this is compounded by lack of clarity of the future or not having motivation to find purpose which is really connected to the future and that can also cause a lot of disruption. So, the current moment feels fabulous because I ain’t got anything going on with my life. So, I’ve had [12:20] talk about this that the whole role of future savings idea, but can we talk a little bit more in detail about this connection between this and the executive function because the executive function really is what allows the balancing act that you’re talking about? So, how do you see it play out when it comes to helping people to develop these abilities?
Dr. Tuckman: Right. I mean, first of all, you’re absolutely right about the fact that there’s something about having a purpose, having some bigger goal which is not exactly – I mean, that’s not an executive function thing. But if you don’t have the sense of where you want to end up, if the future is rather vague or amorphous, so like for example, if I’m trying to eat healthier but I don’t really have a goal that I’m shooting for other than some vague notion of eating healthier or I don’t have a reason why, my doctor said, “Hey, you got to get this number down a bit.” It’s a lot harder to feel the motivation in that case and then you can’t apply the executive function. So that’s kind of like a hot emotional side and the cold more cognitive side of it. So, having some sort of goal I think is really important but then it becomes a matter of applying the executive function by stepping out of the temptations of the present or stepping back from this sort of stimuli of the present moment so that we can pause to think about what the future might be and it’s in that moment that we sort of balance the present versus the future.
This is not to say that the goal is to live some austere lifestyle but really live it up when you’re 70, that’s not it all but rather it’s to – if we use the chocolate chip cookie example – to have a chocolate chip cookie is the right time to do it, whatever that means, to say, “You know what, mostly I’ve been eating pretty good. Yes, I could enjoy this cookie right now.” Or to say, “You know what, I haven’t actually been eating that well. I’m not on track to what would like to do with my health or whatever. So, I am making a choice to pass on this cookie.” And that’s where the executive functions come is this sort of they come in that pause between stimulus and respond to then think through the possibilities, consider the future, and then make a choice of that moment.
Sucheta: You bring up a very important point that I have seen become a big problem which is this austere life which is if I don’t indulge in now, then are you telling me to abstain from all that is fun? And they look at that current moment as a punishment I’m giving myself. And so you’re saying that really, it’s not punishment. Yeah, I mean I can’t even convince many of my clients that I have kind of recommended the make your bed, remember that speech that became viral, that simple habits, how they can add but I think a lot of times, somehow a lot of my ADHD folks feel that they are in shackles of routines and they hate it because they feel they define or they’ll somehow highjack me from my ability to be a vagabond. What do you [15:34]
Dr. Tuckman: It’s an important point that you’re bringing up. Punishment is often, it’s sort of externally-driven. Like if you eat the cookie, I don’t know, whatever, you have to go to your room and not watch TV or something, right? And of course nobody likes being externally controlled. Nobody likes to sort of feel punished like that. But I think in that circumstance, the problem is it’s not the client’s goal. It might be your goal for them or they might think that this is your goal for them.
My job as a psychologist is not to decide for my clients what they should do. My goal is to help them make choices that they can feel okay about. The example I’ll sort of use here is, I’ve had more than one client who haven’t done their taxes in five years. Now, I would be incredibly stressed out about not having any tax returns in five years but they’re sort of stressed out but not super stressed out, so my job is to help them figure out, is this worth it to you? Is it important to you to get it done? If it is, and I’m not saying it needs to be but if it is, then what are you willing to do to make that happen? So, it becomes their goal to do or it’s their goal to use a scheduling system like Google calendar or whatever but it’s important to them because they recognize that their life is better.
So, if they don’t see how some sacrifice in the present benefits them in the future, it’s a tough sell. That’s not going to be a habit that’s going to last long. But even here, it all becomes circular, you need the executive functions to be able to step out of the present moment to really kind of think about this bigger picture goal and what is important to you and what tradeoffs are you willing to make, and are there other compromises you can make instead and how do you sort of think it all through? I think that’s important and I think that just saying you need to get a to-do list, you need to put things in your calendar or whatever, it often doesn’t stick because the wants are not really being connected to anything other than what seems like a generic sort of advice or that somebody else is kind of forcing their way unto you which is again a tough sell.
Sucheta: You know, you’re so right. I have seen it wasn’t until I would say 5-6 years ago that I became aware that procrastination is actually – or there is a huge component of psychological ailment that needs to be addressed and that sense of existential crisis like “Who am I if I don’t get these things done? Who am I really?” And because a lot of times as a coping mechanism, the ADHD folks that I work with allow themselves to be okay with outcome that’s negative or not favorable to that future self because the future goals are movable because they didn’t make it happen in the current moment through abstinence, through cajoling self, whatever it was. “Yes, I want to be able to get good grades” and then I don’t get good grades, “Oh well, I didn’t get good grades.” I mean, all along feeling terrible so that terrible feeling doesn’t go away but somehow really not feeling that I have any agency. So sounds like it will work and that’s why it’s so important work with psychologists like you because that sense of agency needs to be awoken and shaped by some therapy. It’s not a cognitive approach. This is a deeply psychological approach.
Dr. Tuckman: Right. And in particular, if it’s someone who has ADHD or some other thing that’s sort of longstanding, it’s not just like “I’ve been sick for the last few days and I’m not really getting things done.”I kind of say that neurology drives psychology so that someone who struggled all of their life with getting things done and being consistent about it, it would be unreasonable then for them to not have some self-doubt. “Oh man, I got a big work project coming up. Sure hope I can get it done. I sure hope it’s not going to be a mad dash scramble at the end but you know what, it always is so I guess that’s just how it’s going to be.” There’s this kind of learned pessimism that they’ve developed or as Ross Ramsey from Penn has coined it, “self-mistrust.” This idea of “I can’t rust myself when I say I’m going to start this time. I’m starting that work project early.” when the last 50 times, it hasn’t been started early or maybe most of the last 50 times. So there’s that part of it as well so they sort of give up too early on the idea of getting started earlier like they start and then they hit a little bit of bump where they can’t get going immediately and then they give up too soon so they don’t have that kind of persistence to kind of like slog through those uncomfortable moments and apply themselves in a more effortful kind of a way.
Sucheta: And that’s why I think sometimes I find that if people take only coaching approach or send their children to tutoring, which is somebody literally being your frontal lobes and sitting with you and telling you, “Okay, put that away. Now, take out this. Yeah, did you write in this? No? Okay, go ahead.” So, that instructional supervision or like babysitting with the frontal lobes is something people prefer but I think that coaching, it doesn’t kind of empower the learner that self-knowledge as you’re talking about that addresses the cognitive aspects of self-regulation and the psychological aspect, the help won’t be everlasting. What is your take on that? What are some of these approaches that begin to take shape that are effective but they address hot and cold executive functions?
Dr. Tuckman: So, certainly one big thing is, at least to somebody who has ADHD, medication. It improves the person’s ability to do what they need to do. Now, granted that benefit starts to wear off at the end of the day as medication wears off and then you can take another pill tomorrow, so it’s not like antibiotics that it knocks out the infection and then you’re good to go. But for what it’s worth, my vision is no better after I take out my contact lenses than it was I put them in, so such is the way of life. And you still got to take your shower every day and all that other stuff but it certainly improves the person’s ability to – sometimes I say that ADHD medication closes the gap between intention and action. So, there is less of a hump to get over, to get going on things, to persist on them, sort of pause and think about the future. But having said that, you can take a pound of medication and if you decide that mostly what you want to do is watch Netflix, I don’t know, you might remember the details of the shows you’re watching a little bit better but you’re still not getting anything done. So, medication helps with [00:22:49]
Sucheta: Yes.
Dr. Tuckman: Creating a good work environment for yourself with fewer distractions, let’s say. Another good idea, definitely recommend it but in and of itself is not sufficient. So, it’s really kind of it’s all of the above. It’s having a bit of the right medication if that’s relevant. It’s creating good work environment, having good tools and systems like minders, like having a good schedule system, having some sort of good to do list, making easy filing systems, so not super complicated, and then also the psychology recognizing this is important, this is worthwhile. Here is my future goal. Here is my future benefit. This is why I’m putting in the work even when sometimes I don’t feel like it.
Sucheta: Fabulous. So now, can we talk a little bit about relationships? Can you help our listeners understand – and you’re an expert in this – so what is the relationship between executive dysfunction and having social emotional understanding? And I see nothing but negative ramifications of that and as a sex therapist, what are the additional layers that you may be handling in your practice that are a little bit unseen to the observer who is just an outsider?
Dr. Tuckman: Yeah, so at the end of the day, we’re social creatures and for a lot of people, it’s not simply like work achievement that drives a sense of happiness and fulfillment but it’s our relationships, it’s the connection that we have with others. And folks who have executive function challenges will struggle certainly in terms of school and work in ways that probably everybody is familiar with but it also shows up in your relationships in that when we have relationships with other people, we have certain expectations of them. Now, those might be too much or too little, the expectations we have from people and we always have expectations. Like, I expected my wife certain things just as she expected me certain things. The problem then for folks with executive function issues is that they don’t fulfill the expectation that their partner has for them and that then causes strain in the relationship and often, not always but often what happens is the other partner winds up functioning more and the person with executive function challenges begins taking on less and there’s this kind of shifting that takes place. To some degree, that can be okay but it then eventually gets to a point especially as life gets more complicated, so kids show up and then you’re living in a house and not some crappy apartment and your job’s become more demanding and more complicated and there’s more to take care of that the other partner winds up kind of hitting the breaking point and they feel frustrated and they feel resentful and they don’t feel like their partner is being there for them in a way that they want them to be which then leaves a resentment, criticism, nagging, anger. The person with the executive function challenges then, who wants to be on the receiving end of all that? So understandably, they sort of retreat or feel like, “It doesn’t matter what I do. It’s never going to be enough.”
And on the one hand, absolutely the person with the executive function challenges needs probably to step up a bit more and to be more reliable, to be more consistent, to kind of carry more their weight, to check in more with their partners and see how they’re doing. But also equally true but often missed is that let’s just say the non-ADHD partner needs to be able to know when to step back, when to let things go, what are the battles to pick, and what are the battles to pass on. It’s not the ADHD partner’s job to never give the non-ADHD partner anything to be anxious about. So, they need to manage their anxiety. They need to understand it’s not always going to be my way. Or sometimes it’s okay to do things differently and I’m just going to let that one go.
This is true of any relationship, like you get some stuff your way and some stuff you just got to accept but it heightened even more so when somebody has ADHD or executive function challenge and they just need to work that much harder to feel like they’re on the same team and to not feel like they fall into kind of like a parent-child dynamic which is not fun in relationships and when it comes to sex is a total killer. That kills physical sexual desires often on both parts.
So, the goal of my new book that’s coming out ADHD After Dark is to help these couples where one person has ADHD and one person doesn’t, to get along better together, that sexual connection is really important in terms of the couple’s happiness and longevity and giving them the good feelings about each other to bounce over the daily mundane struggles of life. But to do that requires doing frankly some hard emotional relationship work and finding the ways where the one person can step up and the other person can step down so that they can do better overall which is then better for their kids if they have any. Because when mom and dad do well or mom and mom, and dad and dad, when the parents do well, the kids do better also.
Sucheta: You know, as you’re speaking about this, I’m reminded of mumble core. Do you know it’s a new genre of TV-making or show-making or whatever? I had never heard of it before but anyway, there’s a great show called Easy. It’s on Netflix, I’m not recommending people to waste their time but it’s a great way the show is written and it’s fabulous acting but the dialogues are written as if you are literally going through life and it’s not been scripted, it doesn’t appear to be scripted. But the reason I’m bringing this up is you know who’s doing a great job of describing everything you just talked about is all these writers and producers of these sitcoms and shows. They’re not providing solutions but now they are going deeper and deeper and depicting the nuances or you as an observer gets a window into something. And I can say, “Oh my God, that’s my ADHD client there. Yes, that’s the impulsive executive dysfunction — bored, not taking enough responsibility, not engaging, not checking or becoming a mother, becoming a father.” Seeing all that depicted, unfortunately, I’m not seeing a very well-modeled TV. Of course, that would not make a good drama but what’s interesting about what you’re saying is a lot of my clients and particularly adults who are parents who bring their children but they haven’t really developed the insight that they themselves have these struggles or they have never received a diagnosis of treatment of it, that they really want their children to be better but they don’t take the time or don’t take serious understanding that they need to change. How do you see that play out in your practice?
Dr. Tuckman: Yeah, I think that it’s much easier to see this in others. And as a society, we are doing a better job of recognizing and diagnosing and treating ADHD in adults and just learning disabilities in general in adults. We’re still much better at identifying it in kids. I think some of it is this idea of like, “Well, you managed to survive into adulthood. I guess you must be doing enough things right. Good luck.” So, people don’t necessarily think of it for themselves even though it becomes very apparent pretty quickly in a conversation that they’re having the same struggle that their kid is having just in a more grownup context. So, I do think it’s important. If you suspect yourself or another adult that you know, whether it’s personal relationship or if you’re a provider or an educator or something, the people that you’re working with, if there’s some suspicion of this, probably worth getting checked out. Because once you know what’s going on, you’re in a much better position to do something about it.
Sucheta: Yeah, and even though it may be a little bit kind of create discomfort but you’re right. I think addressing it will empower you. Do you see a change in your practice over time or in general trends that people are seeking more help? I see a bigger trend, I mean, a great trend towards seeking medication but people are not comfortable seeking therapy or really working with somebody with great effort because it just takes time. Unless it becomes significantly impairing or devastatingly interfering, then people take steps. But otherwise, people just want to have quick fix.
Dr. Tuckman: Right.
Sucheta: So, as we come to a close, what are your thoughts about children’s ability to form better relationships? I think it’s one thing that adults struggling with ADHD have a little bit cognitive maturity or also the ramifications are quite great and visible and tangible but children are just developing these abilities. What do you see their understanding of self and their own assessment of the kinds of relationships they are having with others? Where do you see the greatest struggle and what do you suppose is the best approach?
Dr. Tuckman: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think you do see this and I think that to some degree, it depends on how much hyperactivity and impulsivity are part of the picture versus if someone tends to just be more inattentive that I think the folks are more hyperactive and impulsive as kids, it has a much bigger impact because these are the kids who are kind of getting in trouble at school, stuff like smoking in the bathroom or something, not like big stuff but just that that they’re the one that the teacher is something to. They’re the ones who are talking when you’re not supposed to be talking. They’re the ones who are getting the kids around them into trouble because they’re talking together or whatever, perceived by the teacher to be talking together. So, those are the kids that are often sort of ostracized a bit more and will struggle to get play dates or they are the ones who are not being texted when a bunch of other people are getting together, whereas those that are more inattentive, it still shows off and particularly I think with girls more so than boys, they are the kids who wind up being excluded a bit more or they don’t remember the details of like, “No, I was telling you last time what happened with Jenny. I can’t believe you don’t remember it.”And I think that they’re prone to settling for friendships where they’re just not treated as well, you know what I mean? That there is a sense of like, “Well, I’m just lucky to have [33:33]” or maybe they don’t notice how they’re not being treated as well and perhaps later, they realize as adults or something.
So, the advice that I give in terms this is their younger kids obviously then it really comes down to the parents to sort of think about who their kids are hanging out with. Some kids tend to be a bit more impulsive, the worst thing it two impulsive kids together. So, finding other kids who are pretty mellow and a stabilizing force maybe can be a good thing. But also to do a little bit of work, kind of talking to your kids about how their friendships are going and who they’re hanging out with. And if something happens, obviously we always want to jump to the defense of our kids, sometimes maybe we need to push them a little bit or to sort of find friends who are going to be a good fit and people who are kind of particular and difficult okay, probably not a good fit for a kid with ADHD because that’s the set up where there too often going to be a problem and the problem clearly is going to be the kid with ADHD because it’s not the particular kid who is the problem here, right? That’s the sort of dynamic that get set up.
Sucheta: Exactly.
Dr. Tuckman: So, people can get all offended and worked up when you‘re running late, you may not be a good match for them as a friend and they may not be a good match for you as a friend. So, you need to work harder and be considerate and text when you’re running late. People who are going to put you in the dog house for being late, you need to find somebody else.
Sucheta: Yeah, I think this is so valuable that this is actually the making and the breaking of friendships isn’t it? That if you are judged harshly for this very quality that makes you who you are, then you’re going to have resentment towards everybody who comes into your life but you also don’t recognize that you have goodness in you that you can share with people but that goodness never comes out because they’re not hanging out with you long enough to see your goodness.
Dr. Tuckman: Yeah.
Sucheta: I like to educate children about having a language that enables them to describe their symptoms and struggles without imposing any burden on the listener or the friend, that “You don’t need to take care of me but I‘m so sorry but I tend to run late, is there any way you can text me before I leave the house?” or something and kind of opening a dialog where the friend says, “I don’t like to do that.” Then you can say, “Okay, okay, no problem.”And so then coming of going to a parent and saying I have this important friendship. And the second thing I work a lot with this social understanding piece is kind of theory of mine that reading the minds of others, kind of checking in with people and saying, “How are you feeling? What are you thinking? How agree you doing with us?” A lot times as you mention these inattentive and hyperactive kids are not oriented towards the minds of others and miss out on a lot of information about the mental states of others too, right?
Dr. Tuckman: Yeah, so they may not understand what or they may not even know that the friend is going to be upset because they don’t realize how late they’re running, for example, or they don’t remember they’ve been late the last three times but the friend remembers. So, it feel like this anger or whatever from other people is sort coming out of nowhere and from their perspective, it is, given their awareness of things. I mean, obviously, you can’t do anything about what you’re not even aware of in the first place.
Sucheta: Exactly.
Dr. Tuckman: So, one of the things that and kind of very similar to what you’re doing is I’ll sort of coach people to – it’s sort of like how with expectation management. So, if the issue was this person tends to run late is to be right upfront especially with newer friends and say, “Look, here’s the deal. I really struggle with running late. I know I need to be better at it but it’s always been hard for me and honestly, it always will.” So, here’s the deal, before you leave the house, text me to make sure that I’m on my way. So, it’s not their job to make sure you’re on time but it is their job to ensure that they are not going to be unhappy about waiting there. Their happiness is their job.
So, if they will be mortally attended and bored to death and embarrassed sitting at the restaurant by themselves or whatever, then it’s incumbent on them to check in. Now, there may be some friends who are going to say, “Look, I’m not doing it. That’s not my job. I’m not interested,” something, something. And then I think the response from the person with ADHD is, “You know what, it may just be that we’re just not meant to be friends or maybe we see each other at parties and gatherings like awesome, let’s enjoy it but maybe we just can’t set things up to get together.” But I think that the thing about that is it’s important that person with ADHD not take it all on to themselves. I am not capable of being friends with people. No, you are very capable of being friends with people. You’re not good at getting there on time. If somebody has that as a deal-breaker which is their right, it may just be that you and them are not a good fit with each other and you need to find other friends and they need to find other friends.
So, it’s this balancing act of “Yes, work hard at being more on time. Work hard at texting people when you’re late.” whatever, whatever. So, change the parts that you can while also accepting that this is kind of who I am, it’s not all of who I am. It doesn’t take away from the rest of who I am but this one skill, this is super important to you and a friend, I’m just not that person and that’s okay.
Sucheta: I love it. I love it that it doesn’t take away from who you are. I think that’s the balance, that’s the emotional adjustment, making peace with yourself and having ADHD gracefully, I call it.
Dr. Tuckman: Yeah, absolutely.
Sucheta: Own it gracefully. Well, Ari, this has been a terrific conversation. Thank you for your generosity and just being open with us and on diving deep particularly the intimacy aspects of things. I think this is going to be extremely valuable. And also, I don’t think this applies only to ADHD. I think in this crazy frenzy that we are in, trying to live the digital life where we are so distracted, people are really becoming more forgetful and hyperactive, impulsive, and inattentive at the same time without any diagnosis. So, those are the kids in us that we need to manage ourselves and manage expectations in others. So, thank you for being here today and for wonderful insight. You are very gracious.
Dr. Tuckman: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Producer: Alright, that’s all the time we have for today. If you know someone who might benefit from listening to today’s episode, we would be grateful if you would kindly forward it to them. So, on behalf of our host, Sucheta Kamath, today’s guest, Dr. Ari Tuckman and all of us at Cerebral Matter, thank you for listening today and we look forward to seeing you again right here next week on Full PreFrontal.