Producer: Alright, welcome back to Full PreFrontal, where we are exposing the mysteries of executive function. And as always, I am here with our gracious host, Sucheta Kamath. Good morning, Sucheta, good to be with you.
Sucheta: Great to be with you. I’m very excited to talk to you and our guest. So, to begin with, I grew up India and Bolly wasn’t yet as people all over the world know it to be but it had a stronghold on my imagination because when I was part of Bombay that I grew up with, that every Friday, we had a showing in a community theater and we saw all kinds of movies. But one of the interesting things that stands out for me is I saw way too many movies where people had a car crash or some sort of accident or they were hit on their heads and they went into coma and they woke up with amnesia. And the only thing that literally changed was that they couldn’t remember who they were. And so when the story of entire movie would progress, the hero or the heroine would nurse the person who was concussed and help them become who they are or help them to know who they are.
The strangest thing about those kinds of movies was when I got into the field of concussion and traumatic brain injury and cognitive rehab, there’s nothing of that sort that happens to people and particularly, the only thing that they forget is who they are and nothing else and they are sleeping in a beautiful way and they wake up and they start walking and talking and go back to doing even singing, of course, if it’s Bollywood. And so I think what’s so strange about this whole thing is it always has minimized, particularly these entertainment businesses always minimized the impact and complexities of traumatic brain injury but it’s such a serious matter. It’s an epidemic. It’s almost like more than 8,000 emergency room visits are reported in CDC. We had Julie Harbauer Cooper talk about this on our podcast. There are close to 3 million people in the United States who suffer this anomaly and several ample now that even soccer has hit US entertainment world that it’s become a popular sport in schools in addition to, of course, football which we now know has a significant impact on longevity and progressive dementia that we have been reading about.
So, with that in mind and with the steady rise in such injuries and the most critical truth about this, that no one is spared, we must have a discussion. And that’s why it’s such a pleasure to have this incredible guest on the podcast today. Her name is Dr. Ann Glang. She is a special education researcher who for over 25 years has spent her time designing and studying interventions to support children and adolescents with traumatic brain injury and educating educators and families about it. Dr. Glang has served as a principal investigator for numerous national institutes of health and Department of Education funded projects in her role as the researcher and director of the Center on Brain Injury Research and Training at the University of Oregon. Her research interest include childhood brain injury prevention and interventions for helping teachers and families support children and adolescents with brain injury. So, it’s a great pleasure to have you, Ann, welcome to the podcast.
Ann Glang: Hi, and thank you so much.
Sucheta: So, this podcast is about executive function and we talk about intentional focus, adaptive flexibility, goal assessment and being future-oriented, and educators have to help children develop these abilities but they have to adapt their own style, own educational approach based on the individual student’s need and student problems that they are encountering. So, before we dive into this conversation, I thought I’ll ask you some personal questions. My first question is, and I have only two, but my first question is – how were you as a student learner and when did you being to think about your thinking and learning so that you could help yourself strategize? And do you know any teacher or educator that stands out in your mind who helped you do that?
Ann: I think probably the first time I became aware of my own thinking and learning was when I was in college. Up to that point, school was relatively easy for me but when I got to college and had to have these strict deadlines and lots of assignments and writing in-depth papers that I didn’t really have experience doing, I became aware of how much anxiety played a role in my learning and how much it was not good for my learning. And that was probably when I was about 20 and I think I learned strategies to reduce the anxiety and to kind of realize it’s there and it’s going to be there, and it’s good to have a little bit of it but not to let it take you over. So, I think that’s probably the thing that I learned the most and in terms of strategies, kind of managing that anxiety but also managing deadlines.
So for example, as I got into my career and was doing things like writing grant proposals that were going to make a difference and whether or not I had a job, very high stakes, then I realized I really had to be very proactive and very much thinking about what was coming up and strategize and timeframe and get things organized. So that’s something that from my own learning and work has been very helpful. Up to that point, I think I did a lot of last minute, “Oh, we can wait,” procrastination. So that’s, in terms of my own learning.
In terms of teachers that helped me, I think I would say the best teacher was a colleague, my colleague, [00:06:13] with whom I worked for about 30 years, and this was way after I was a student, though one could say, “You’re always a student.” But as I learned grant writing and the work of a researcher, I really learned discipline from her and a lot of that had to do with planning out and thinking things through carefully and really, we use the term “aiming before firing” so really, she’s a qualitative researcher and we’re really thinking about getting the whole context before taking action. So, when it came to writing a grant proposal or a paper, really doing some thinking about that and planning, collaborating before putting anything down on paper.
Sucheta: You know, that’s such an interesting observation you’re sharing with us. I began to ask these questions of my guests and particularly, this might be very insightful for you to bring it in front of the teachers who teach. None of my guests has said “this is what my middle school or high school teacher taught me” and most experts have said that, “I learned this in college and pretty much I observed this about myself but I also was a very good student.” So, it’s very interesting that what do we do when kids don’t have that kind of talent to know themselves? So, just a quick second question was – how has your professional insights that you have developed over time as you have done this work informed your own approach to life? Do you have any thoughts about that?
Ann: I think beyond my work life that I just shared, I think that’s the main impact, I would say. So, really shifting from, “Oh, we could get this done at the last minute and it’ll be fine,” to really being more planful and strategic, and not just hoping that it’ll get done but whatever the task is. But really, being very proactive and thoughtful about the steps involved to accomplish whatever task it is and that can generalize across life, I suppose.
Sucheta: Yes, great. So, help our listeners understand how brain injury as a condition differs from other disabilities and why should we care? And I say I know the answer in a way but why should we really invest our understanding into this and how do these students present themselves in the classroom?
Ann: So, in terms of the why we should care, I believe, Dr. Harbauer Cooper shared with you the data but just to review that, each year, approximately 700,000 new children in the United States sustain a brain injury that requires hospitalization or treatment in an emergency department, and that’s a lot of kids. I can’t say how that compares to other disability groups but it’s certainly a large number of kids and we know that at a minimum, these are all estimates based on, as I’m sure, Dr. Harbauer Cooper explained we don’t have great data on kids. Approximately 145,000 children are living with persistent disability following brain injury. And although most of those are children with more significant injuries and disability, we also know that approximately 12% of children with mild brain injuries or concussion will have ongoing problems. So one year later, they’re experiencing disability at school.
So, why is this a problem for teachers? Because #1 reason, brain injury is invisible. These kids don’t look any different. There is no physical sign of any kind of disability. It’s all very hidden and we call it the hidden epidemic because of that. So, there are implications for how kids do in school after a brain injury and often, those effects are subtle and can easily be confused with the manifestations of other disabilities. And I can give you some examples in a second. The other really important thing that has happened that’s different about a child with a brain injury is they were typically developing, things were going along well for the most part for these kids, and then something very significant happens. So, whether it was a concussion where they perhaps lost consciousness for a moment and woke up feeling confused and problems with memory and maybe headaches and sensitivity to light. So, from that end of the continuum all the way to they’re in a hospital and they’re spending time recuperating there and going to rehabilitation, all along that severity continuum, there’s been a very significant traumatic event.
And then thirdly and perhaps most importantly is that the family has gone through the same change, so it’s a very sudden change for families. It’s very stressful especially with a more significant injury. Often there’s families having to take time off from work and care for the child, maybe not attend to their other children as well and their work duties, there’s financial stresses. So, all kinds of stress and the need for coping strategies for the family across injury severity and all the way again from a child who has a very mild injury and maybe they’re just concerned about can they take the SATs on Saturday as planned? What are they going to do about that test they need to take in biology? How about the AP exam in history? All of that, you’re on a, one could say, a milder impact but it doesn’t feel mild for the family all the way to this child’s going to be out of school for three months, maybe longer, they may be doing home school, they’re going to need to go back and have special education. That’s a whole new way of thinking for the family. So, that’s kind of the rationale and why these kids are so different than other children with disabilities in the classroom.
Sucheta: And what’s so interesting about this is you talk about this a lot, that majority of these injuries could even occur between ages of 1-4 so the child may not even have had that injury or the effects may not be tangible or visible until the child is required to learn. Can you comment a little bit on that?
Ann: Yes, and this is a really, really important part. And again, there’s been some great work out of Vicky Anderson’s group in Australia as well as Harbauer Cooper has a recent paper on this, but when a child is injured between 0 and 4, and that is by the way the highest incidence rate of brain injury across the age spectrum, often, those injuries are forgotten. So, you have maybe a 3-year-old who’s in a car crash or pretty maybe significant event, maybe they were hospitalized but children are quite resilient and they are healing physically and they get back home and progress in a way that doesn’t concern the family and often I think as both healthcare providers and family members, we’re so pleased to see that physical recovery happen that we hold on to that hope and we maybe let some of the things that could’ve maybe concerned as slide, so child is doing relatively well and then they go to school and they do pretty well for the first few years when the demands are relatively minor.
So, my example is when your 5 years old or your kindergarten teacher really serves as your frontal lobes and they are the executive control system for the classroom. So they say, “Everybody, pick up your pencil. Now, write the letter A. Now, put your pencil back. Now, stand up. Everybody, go to your cubby.” So, it’s one to two-step commands, very simple to follow and a child with a brain injury will do fine with that, quite structured quite clear and direct. But when you get into third grade, as an example, and the assignment is, “Okay, today we’re going to write a book report. I want everybody to go to the library. Pick out a book, read the book, and then write a report and turn it in on Friday.” That task, as you know, includes many, many, many components, lots of executive function components to that task, and a child with a brain injury may struggle. So, we like to say they’re growing into their disability, it’s more that the environment is changing and the expectations have increased. And so now, the child is struggling a bit and if you’re an educator who has no background in brain injury as most don’t, you wouldn’t at that point, when you see that child struggling with that task, you wouldn’t say, “Oh, maybe there’s something going on from that injury.” Because chances are you don’t even know about the injury.
Sucheta: And you know, unlike somebody like me whose clinical practice as a speech language pathologist or as a clinician who provides therapy, we do case histories and this comes up when you take a case history. An educator is not required to take a case history, that’s not even their job. So again, as you said, to make that connection between these invisible or intangible events of the past to this growing into disability type of issue that you described is really what makes it even harder for anybody to make those connections. And because as you’re describing sounds to me, if you don’t understand that, then your approach will be very different too, right?
Ann: I think that is very much what those of us in the field are trying to say is that, if you don’t have the background, then you may – and again, this goes back to what I said before, if you haven’t kind of done that case history, if you don’t have that information and if you haven’t carefully assessed what’s going on for the child, including talking to the parents, then you’re going to put in place support based on your own best judgment which is going to be kids with developmental disabilities. So you might, for example, just use some correction and maybe even a little bit of punishment like, “You didn’t get your book report done, so you’re going to stay in at recess today.” And I think we tend to assume the child a bit lazy if they haven’t done, they haven’t tried hard enough. So, “You’re going to stay in. You’re going to work on this. You’re going to stay after school and work a little bit longer,” as opposed to if we know that the child has a brain injury (a) the assignment would have been broken down differently, and (b) if the child is struggling, the teacher would have said, “Well, let’s look at this and why, and see what we can do to help you get this done.”
Sucheta: Yeah, and I think one significant element of the presentation of disability and the true nature of disability is also the memory function and the prospective memory, that ability to remind yourself to remember to remember is a different mechanism for somebody who has incurred a traumatic brain injury versus somebody who has dyslexia or ADHD. Is that right?
Ann: Yes, yes, very much, yup. That’s critical.
Sucheta: Yes, because the entire treatment or approach as you mentioned will differ and also your kind of empathy will be different if genuinely, I gave you support and you didn’t respond may fall in the category of you being rude or insensitive or unappreciative of my help, and that can cast further problems too.
Ann: Yes, and I think this is particularly the case for teens. A lot of the behavior would say the effects of brain injury can be very subtle and overlap with both other disabilities and may be normal teenage behavior. So, if you have a child whose not getting their homework turned in, maybe they’re falling asleep in class, they’re not as focused, the first assumption is the child has a motivation problem, maybe they’re not getting enough sleep at home. So, the behavior is misattributed to other things other than a brain injury.
Sucheta: Great. So, let’s talk about how best teachers can provide accommodation with students with traumatic brain injury and how does one determine what best set of accommodations should be and could be and who determines the efficicacy of them? So, this is the problem I often see working with children who have been provided with accommodations that there’s no proper measure of its impact on the child’s performance as well as attitude or social/emotional adjustment. What do you think about that? What best solution do you propose?
Ann: So, I think you just raised the question that every school person in America could be asking themselves and if we could come up with some answers to those questions, we would really be making a very significant impact on kids with brain injuries. And as I mentioned, there’s a lot of them. So, I think step 1 is we have to have some background for educators around this disability. And it’s not we’d like to say on our work, good teaching is good teaching and if you have been well-prepared to work with children with all levels of ability, you are going to have tricks in your pocket that you could pull out and you’re going to have strategies that you can use. But if you don’t have a little bit of background in what’s different about brain injury, it’s going to be difficult for you to recognize, you need to try some different things, so that’s step 1.
Step 2 – how do we decide what are our accommodations? I really think that is based on assessment and that’s based on watching a student. It’s based on getting that information from the family and it’s based on work that the child does in the classroom. So, it’s really getting a global look at how the child does in the classroom and what they need. Often, the accommodations are very, very simple and they’re things that you might do for a child with ADHD, a child with focus and concentration problems. They’re very similar strategies but absent that background in brain injury, you’re going to think to try any of them because you’re going to say, “Oh, the child’s just not trying. It’s a motivational problem.”
So, I think the types of accommodations are very simple. So, for a child with a concussion, it might be things like allowing them to have a fatigue break. Where can I go in the school to take a break because I get overloaded and my symptoms exacerbates? I start more of a headache, I get more confused, I get foggy. Things like reducing workload. How can I show competence on this math operation without having to do 50 problems? Can I do 10? So, that’s an example, reducing the workload. And then the classic things like extra time on test, extra time for homework. These are not unique to child with brain injury but they can be very, very helpful especially for those kids with concussion who are going to heal within a few weeks, just providing that flexibility can make all the difference in the world on later outcomes. For a child who maybe needs special education and needs more support, then that’s going to probably require more significant accommodations. Some maybe a different class situation, smaller class size, smaller groups, more support from the teacher, more breaking down tasks for new learning. And that’s always an interesting thing.
So, I think what’s most unique from learning academic content perspective for these kids is they are all over the map and so in terms of their assessment one day, they may have a skill just fine and maybe doing double digit multiplication and be doing just great. And then the next already, there’s a hiccup and they really struggle. They can’t remember some of the steps and so there’s this heterogeneity of performance over time that is very puzzling, and that’s again something I think that’s hard for a classroom teacher, like, “Well, you had it yesterday. What’s going on today? Are you just not trying? Did you not get enough sleep? Did you forget your medication?” Again, the misattribution. So if we know, I’m a classroom teacher and I know, Okay, these kids have lots of variability in performance. If they have it one day, that doesn’t mean they’re going to have it the next, so I’m going to assess each day. I’m going to assess a broad range of skills up and down the skill sequence, maybe even because I might find that they can do some things that I didn’t think they could do and then that there’s some holes in those lower level skills. So for me, that’s one of the biggest accommodations for a child with a more significant, really compromised learning system is to do that ongoing assessment and targeted intervention where the holes are. So, let’s find where the holes are and let’s help you practice and learn so that you can be successful and independent.
Sucheta: Fabulous. So, you’re mentioning this incredible human tendency which is misattribution that you’re talking about. I think, “are you lazy, are you taking advantage of me, are you being difficult,” and I see that most of the resistance comes from in spite of getting the education or kind of guidelines regarding what is the nature and scope of this disability, I find that human interaction is fueled by this children’s lack of general apathy and disengagement. So I’m curious, how does this reducing workload which is a little bit more concrete when it comes to doing 10 instead of 50 math problems, but how does a teacher understand that if you’re asked to write a paper, what would be a thinned-down version of writing a paper that still hits the skills but doesn’t need to be the vast scope of it that can overburden the child’s working memory as well as provoke fatigue? I know this is minor question I have about the strategy tweak, but also, the second question I had is the global, as you’re saying, just what you described to me sounds like best practices. And when you say assessment which is watch the student, get the information from parents, and watch the child’s work, best practices, and I find that teachers are somehow sometimes getting a little lost in doing that.
Ann: Yeah, so you got two questions there. Can I start with the second? So best practices, I think that is this old thing that we have in our heads that we say a lot is “good teaching is good teaching.” This is not rocket science. This is having your best game on because these kids are going to need your best self as a teacher. You’re going to need to use your best strategies, the strategies that have the most evidence behind them, and the things that I was mentioning are just kind of not that difficult to implement. So why is that? That’s probably a whole long thesis by somebody. Why is it that across disciplines, we have trouble getting evidence into practice? I think it’s a big question and there’s probably lots and lots and lots of answers that a simple one for us has been that the information for teachers anyway around brain injury has just not been available so we know that university preparation programs of both general educators as well as special educators do not cover traumatic brain injury.
So, a very simple solution is to help with getting that evidence into practice is to provide short web-based training that people can do in an in-service basis and that’s something that we’ve created through some federal grant and that we’ve created this online program where you can learn in very short modules, what are some key strategies for helping these kids? So, that’s one way to get evidence in practice I think is to make it easy, accessible, scalable, inexpensive, those kinds of things.
Now I’ve already forgotten your first – oh, about the essay. Let’s say you’re an English teacher and you’re covering writing the classic five-paragraph essay. Well, and this is just thinking out loud here but it seems to me that you could say, what are the tasks involved in that? Let’s break it down. Well, you want the child to come up with an outline for their five-paragraph essay. So, maybe you could require the student with the brain injury to come up with that outline. And then rather than writing five paragraphs, have them flesh out two paragraphs – the introductory paragraph and the second paragraph. So they would show, I know how to do the whole of this task, which is write the outline, and then I know how to flesh out the outline for two paragraphs s opposed to five. So, that would be cutting it down. You could certainly do the same with a longer paper but I think it requires some thinking like what really are you trying to teach? I think that’s the bottom line. And if you’re trying to teach a math operation or you’re trying to teach history or some facts in history, remembering some dates and things in history, or you’re trying to teach something more conceptual, how historical events have shaped policy and government, something like that. I mean, you’re going to have to really think what is it, what’s the critical things you’re trying to teach and how do you ask the student to demonstrate mastery of those critical tasks?
Sucheta: Beautiful. And so again, I think what you are describing is mindful teaching, just being a little bit aware that just because a child has run into a problem or is not producing doesn’t mean they don’t want to. And if you can filter down the essence of that learning experience into something learnable, then you can certainly tailor the strategies. I love it and I talk a lot about that when I do executive function training which is the fundamental ability to adjust and adapt your own approach to your own profession, for example, which is teaching students how to learn to learn but sometimes teachers can’t quite decipher how to read the student’s intentions. And if they get peeved about it, they are less willing to modulate their approach to teaching those strategies which is kind of a shame.
Ann: Yeah, I think that’s a very good point and I think especially when we have children who have challenges managing their anger and disruptive behavior, it’s really important as a teacher to stay calm and to model that calmness. So, just an example of that, like how can I modify, how can I adapt and switch here so what I feel like doing is throwing the kid out of the class but what I’m going to do is take some deep breaths and calmly remind them of the expectation or whatever it is or give them a choice, whatever the strategy is.
Sucheta: So, let’s talk about designing the curriculum that’s conducive to students’ lasting success. What do you suggest the educators learn regarding such type of crafting a classroom support for students like this? What does that look like?
Ann: So, I think again, that’s a big question and not being a classroom teacher, I don’t think I can fully answer it but I think there’s a lot that happens in designing classroom routines that are consistent and something that children learn, for example, with younger kids, they learn what the routine is for turning in an assignment. They learn what the routing is for coming into the classroom – you come in, you take your backpack off, you put it in your cubby, you go to your desk, you take out your book and you begin reading. So, having established classroom routines really will help a child with a brain injury as long as they are taught. And for a child with a brain injury, it might take a little bit longer. You call that having a brain injury-friendly classroom, and that’s a huge part of it. It’s routines that are consistent and that are taught.
And then in terms of curriculum and implementation of that curriculum, there’s a lot of science about what is effective teaching and there’s multiple steps, they spend lots and lots of research how to help kids learn and do well. So, examples of things like just this one example in reading, if you have some vocabulary that’s different in a lesson that kids are going to be reading, to pre-teach that vocabulary, make sure they understand the words and the story before they read the story. So, simple things like that. If you’re teaching math and you’re going to have them do word problems, make sure that the reading is of a level the children can do. So, there’s simple things that have a lot of evidence both in regular education research and special education research that really are important in implementing.
The research on strategies for teaching and supporting kids with brain injuries in the classroom is very minimal. There’s very little but there’s as I’ve said before, there’s a lot of work that has been done on designing instruction and strategies for for example behavior support strategies, for supporting kids with other disabilities that are quite the same functionality. So, whether it’s ADHD or learning disability or emotional disturbance, there are strategies that work with those populations and it’s really about thinking, what the behavioral manifestation of this child’s disability and what do we know about kids who have other disabilities with similar behavioral manifestations.
Sucheta: So, in closing, do you have some success stories that you could share about your training and approach that you have been advocating for and researching about and making lives better for children all around the globe by training and facilitating the educational approach in general?
Ann: I have one story of a student and the context for this story is in the State of Oregon, we have some training materials and opportunities for educators in Oregon that they can take advantage of but we also have a model, the TBI team model, we call it. And with that model, we have folks who have had extensive training and brain injury who are educators throughout the state, and they are available to support a teacher when they get a child with a brain injury. So, for example if I live in remote rural eastern Oregon and a child is injured maybe in a farming incident and they’re coming back to school, I can call someone nearby who has had this training, one of our team members, and ask them if they could come and do a brief in-service for my school and come into my classroom and help get this child set up with the support that he needs.
Specifically example of that in operation was we had a ninth grade student who had been in a pretty significant car crash when he went to Mexico and the school team said he’s making just enough progress academically that he’s not going to be eligible for special education under specific learning disability which is kind of their go-to for a child who’s struggling academically. And then they also noted that he was having more behavior problems in the classroom, getting frustrated and that was showing up in the classroom. So, called in the TBI team member who is in that area and she observed him actually during a PE class, and it was clear to her that he was really struggling just to learn new rules and the information that the teacher was providing about what they were doing in the class. And because the student had moved from Mexico, he had no medical documentation of that injury and of the crash, and his current doctor was unwilling to provide a written statement which was necessary to get the eligibility under traumatic brain injury because he wasn’t his doctor when the crash happened. So, that’s pointing out lots of flaws in the system here but the student was really struggling and needed help. So, the TBI team did an assessment of the student and worked with the team and with the family to get a nurse practitioner also involved, so there is that medical school collaboration that’s really important with these kids. And the nurse practitioner, after evaluating the student, talking with the family, talking with the student, talking with some of the teachers, said, “You know, this child needs special education and I would be willing to sign that medical statement,” so they could get the special education eligibility.
Sucheta: Wow, that’s fabulous.
Ann: So she did that and as a result then, the child got the instruction that they needed and slightly [00:34:31]. So, I think lots of pieces to that kind of policy-wise, we have this system where unless you have a physician ready and willing to say, “This problem that this child experience is definitely due to this injury that occurred,” and that’s sometimes a leap that not every physician is willing to make. So, unless you have that, things really stop so we have a policy problem. That’s something that we’re actually trying to change in Oregon so you don’t have to have that medical statement but then the other was just having this supportive team member come in and say, “Look, we can look at this through a slightly different lens. Here’s what’s going to be done for this child,” to help the team come up with relevant goals for the individual education plan and support that could meet those goals.
Sucheta: Wow. So I mean, you just shared the story just captures the entire notion that it takes a village and that’s the exact challenge with TBI and rehabilitation into real life is it’s a community that needs to support but yeah, I mean, thank you for addressing even this issue about medical certification. The children who have incurred traumatic brain injuries or concussions need a note from the doctor to be qualified but if the incident has happened four years ago and there was no medical record created, it becomes another layer of problem. I know at least in Georgia, there’s a lot of issues that we are seeing with children getting the right diagnosis and even treatment and then getting the educators who have the information. We don’t have the statewide highly trained folks who are engaged in assessment and delivery of best practices.
I’ll tell you one quick story before we end, that the year I was moving from Boston to Atlanta, we had to bring our car down, so we spent like maybe 14 hours in the car listening to the radio. And as we entered the State of Georgia, there were announcements that they were hosting a – I don’t even know what you call it but I don’t know – like a recruitment fair, that anybody could come in and sign up to become a teacher because they had teacher shortage. And it was devastating that means if you’re a hairdresser, could sign up to become a teacher. And I don’t have nothing against hairdressers or anything but that is not who can really deliver teaching and educational strategies.
Ann: Yeah, very good point. We’ve got teacher shortages all over across America too, so it’s not just Georgia.
Sucheta: Yes, yes. Well, Ann, this has been so enlightening and absolutely wonderful conversation. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. But a lot of listeners are going to actually maybe have a conversation with their educators in the classrooms to see if some best practices can be brought into their classrooms, so I appreciate that.
Ann: Yes, thank you so much for having me. This was great.
Producer: Alright, that’s all the time we have for today. If you know of someone who might just benefit from listening to today’s conversation, we would be much grateful if you would kindly forward it directly to them. So on behalf of our host Sucheta Kamath, today’s guest Dr. Ann Glang, and all of us at Cerebral Matters, thank you for listening today and we look forward to seeing you again right here next week on Full PreFrontal.