Well, I'm a serial killer. I've killed 8 women, 6IN this state and two in New York. I'm not a big serial killer, by the way. 88 people, that's nothing. I mean, there's, there's a lot of other guys you can go see. I saw this woman walking along the road with a stroller. I pulled off the side of the road. She came into the driveway, walked up the driveway. I was behind the house. She saw me and I grabbed her.
I told her that if she didn't do what I I wanted that I would smash the baby's head against the wall of the house. Where I think that's important is I've always said that I never understood why the women never really resisted me. I never I'm not a big strong guy. Nobody ever seemed to fight and I've always had attributed to that. I must say something like that. Similar to to the other victims. I raped her strangler.
I left her for dead. The only reason she's not dead is has nothing nothing to do with me. So when I attacked her, I don't believe I was in control. I don't think I could have stopped. Reason I say that is because there's a very clear point to me after she was dead, when I was feeling well, I didn't really
feel anything. I mean, I knew what was going on and and I saw what was going on, but it was more like watching an old film that we used to see as kids in the high school, you know, I mean, in elementary school, they've been played so many times. They're all spliced and and it'd be going along and then jump. You would think that if you killed somebody that you would have that face imprinted in your mind and that you wouldn't be able to get it out of your mind.
I don't have that. I never had that. The only only face that I can see is what was in the newspapers a few days later when they were when they were missing. You know, like the high school picture. Anybody know where this girl is type thing. That's when I think of them. That's the picture I see. I don't see them as they were when I killed them. I can't see them as I was
killing them. When I say I don't have any remorse, that doesn't mean that I don't have any regrets, that I don't wish that didn't happen there. There was something I could do to bring them back or anything. It's just that I don't have any feelings towards them. I don't feel, I feel like I should be tormented by by by what they look like when I was killing them or by tormented by what was happening immediately before I killed them and stuff.
And none of that's there. None of that's there at all. If I had to choose between whether I'm going to be executed on Thursday or know that I'm going to spend the rest of my days in prison and die an old man, old and broken, I would rather die in prison. I just swung on him with the tire iron and kept swinging until he was down. It's like banging your head on a brick wall. It really is. The thing is, nobody wants to listen. I never talked to the police.
I never gave a statement. I regret that now. I wish. I wish I would have been more like so many of these guys who do get arrested and they just don't shut up, You know, I wish I had told them everything up front. Maybe one of the benefits of me talking to you today is that you'll see that maybe not everything is true, that you've heard about me. Well, am I, am I pure evil? Am I the face of terror sitting here in front of you? Or am I able to talk to you man
to man? But sitting down here now and let me make clear, I'm not sitting here trying to influence you and I'm not putting on a game face. I'm not counting anybody. I'm just being me. So I I got to ask you how you how are you feeling this morning? A little numb. I mean, I don't know how it is how you would expect someone to feel. I mean, if they told you tomorrow you're dying, how would you feel?
It's not something we all die, but it's knowing your exact date and time that's that's hard to deal with. But I'm at peace with myself. I mean, as far as it's my release, my punishment's over. I've been here 28 years now. I'm tired so. You've been here 28 years. I've. Been locked up 28 years since December the 9th 1987 so I'm a little tired and in confinement. And explain what that's like. Imagine spending 28 years in this room. There's no way to describe it.
Exceptionally, it's exceptionally difficult. I've had a lot of support. A lot of people love me and care about me. A lot of lot of support outside. That's made it a little easier, but still, it's very difficult to spend 20 years in a room like this. A lot of thinking you. Have to be able to look in the mirror like yourself. Do you like yourself? Yeah, I'm comfortable with myself.
There's a lot of things in my younger, in my past, you know, I wish I could change, but I'm at peace with myself. The state's about to kill me and they think they're getting justice and I'm like, well, I'm not getting justice, they're just going to kill somebody else. I was like, and I'd like, They killed me 28 years ago when they locked me up. Now they're just releasing me. So you're saying you didn't murder these women?
No. You didn't murder Natalie Hawley, Stephanie Collins, no Terri Lynn Matthews. No, I didn't know. I've never seen them, never met them. And I I I met them through photographs, through crime scene photos, through newspaper articles. I've gotten to know them fairly well through newspaper articles and crime scene photos, police reports. So 10 juries convicted you though. Yes, 10 Juries heard the same evidence repeatedly, over and over and over.
Nothing changed. Evidence linking you to the murders. Yes, people's testimony in the physical evidence. What physical evidence actually linked me? There's hair and fibers, right? Hair and fibers that Mike Malone prepared, not from me. So I've been hearing you talk for the last 20 minutes and you're you're going over the case, you're going over the evidence and, and talking about it being flawed and tainted and planted. So is Florida basically killing
an innocent man? Yes, for for the murder of Stephanie Collins, Natalie Holly and Terry Lee and Matthews and they're about to execute me for Terry Lee and Matthews murder. They execute someone who did absolutely did not commit that murder. So you're innocent? There was another man confessed to it. So you're innocent? Absolutely innocent of the murder. I had nothing to do with it. Are you going to have anything final to say right before the injection? No, that's my release.
They're not going to get no justice out of that. They won't. If, if anything, they'll leave angry, They'll say, well, that was too easy, there was nothing there. Is it going to change anything for them when they wake up the day after? Is anything going to be different now? I'm not going to be there. Where's their focus or their anger now? They're still going to be without their child. They're still going to be numb, you know, maybe it won't happen today.
Maybe it'll happen a week or six weeks, or maybe something will happen a year down the road or whatever. Then they'll say, wow, maybe something will change. They'll say, well, maybe I want to look at the evidence. Might be too late for me, but they owe it to their child. I would if it was my child. They owe their child that much. Are you going to be looking at them right before you're executed? Well, if they're in the window, I probably will. Eye to eye, you're going to look
at all of them. Well, I don't know. It depends if I can see them or not. But you plan to. Oh, if I can see them, yes. And would you say anything? I don't know if I'll say anything because I don't know if it would do any good, you know, What would you say to them? I encourage you to examine the evidence. Hire an independent, someone that you trust, someone you feel comfortable with, and go through it. Is that what you're going to say? That's what I would say.
That's all I can say. I didn't do it. You're not going to believe me. Fine, then there's no point in saying that. But don't take my word for it. Don't take the police. Do an independent analysis. Let them do it. Did. They tell you what time the execution takes place. Well, I think it's scheduled for 6:00 PM. But I was like, after 28 years of this, it's been in this box for 28 years. It's a release my punishments over. They can't hurt me no more so.
So what do you do in your cell all those years sitting in there? Read. Read what? Books about what I read, everything I read all of them. The, you know, the, the works of art, the philosophers, Nietzsche, I've read them all. History. I mean, you're limited to what you can do. The reading's pretty much the only thing writing, reading, writing. I have ATVI watched TV, staying up on the world events and politics and stuff. What do you watch?
Anything in politics that's interesting to you? Mostly watched the PBS shows, the offbeat news programs 'cause they're more in depth, more coverage, a lot of the masterpiece mysteries and stuff like that. I didn't watch a lot of the mainstream TV. Do artwork, Draw what? Do you draw? I did different types of drawings for Rosalie, for the kids I didn't draw for, nobody else, even for her. But hopefully someday the truth will come out. Unless, I mean, it might be too late for me.
It's too late for me 28 years ago. I came to prison 28 years ago. So had I not been in prison for the Ohio case, maybe not just what happened, maybe my credibility would have been different. I don't know. In hindsight, you can set back and say, well, there's a lot of what ifs or I should have, but you can't change that. We get one go around and I have to accept the hand that was dealt me. Some of us don't get the opportunity.
Dying down, nurse. Not as bad as dying the car wreck or upside down the ditch or, you know, house fire or or like the victims died or I mean, there's many worse ways to go. At least I had the opportunity to say goodbye to my people. I had a chance to prepare myself. I haven't, you know, so. Do you know how many people you murdered? Yeah, but I'd rather I'd rather not mention it. By my count, it's 22 people. Is that the same number that you have?
That's approximately it. I wished I could go back and change things, but there's no way I can do it. So I'll try to do it, you know, make the best of it if I had. Some way to make amends to them? I would try to do that. You know it, being locked up in here on death row. With with an execution date a week away, I can't really do a whole lot for them. Do you think about those two boys in Cincinnati? No, I don't really think about them. I mean, I can't go back and
think about the cases. You know, individually I have too much other problems, too much other things I have to focus on and worry about. You know, those are two young boys, just 13 or 14 years old. Yeah, it was, you know, I regret the fact that I shot them. Now why did you shoot them? Well, I was just waiting out, sitting on that railroad track, waiting for the first either interracial couple or black to walk by and. What was your mission?
Well to try to get a race war started a mixed race couples and blacks. I figured if once I started doing it and showed them how other white supremacists would do the same thing, follow suit. So you hope people would copy? I would hope, Yeah, I hope. That other white nationalists would do the same thing. Do you think you're a hero to
those hate groups? Well, that's what they tell me, you know, I just felt like I was at war, you know, and it was the survival of the white race was at stake, stuff like that, you know? Do you feel that way now? No, not at all. No, I can see now it's wrong. It's it's wrong. Violence is wrong at any time, you know, do. You feel that way because you got caught. No, not at all. No, as a matter of fact, it took. Me. Many, many.
Years to change. I actually thought as misguided as I was, I was doing the will of God. You know, I. Thought I was. Actually doing right. This is what God wanted me to do. But the police were pursuing. First time I killed somebody, it was such a rush. How many people have you killed, Lord? I don't know. I don't. Know 10? Yeah, 20. Probably 30. It's up there 50, but see. I'm not. Billy the Kid making notches on on my my poster. So I know it's been a lot.
I am hatred. When you look at me, you look at hate. When I look at you, I look at hate. When you look at me, you know what hate is because I don't know what love is. 2 words I don't like to use is love and sorry because I'm about hate. I don't have no feelings no more, no emotion? No. And I like to watch the eyes fade, the pupil fade. What do you like about that? It it's just like setting their soul free. You also killed children. Some get killed, yes.
Now why would that happen? I didn't want them to live through the pain I lived through. What did you do to her, Sir? Her neck was cut. How did you do that? With a knife. So what if I called you something that you didn't like and you'd think about killing me? Well, if we was in a fight, you know, get your head down in the concrete, then, you know, so be it. But what happens when my head goes down to the concrete? Well, what do you think happened?
It cracked like a coconut. Why do you want to be executed? I have to be because I will kill again. No, I would do it again. I've been molesting kids non-stop since I was 13 years old. Over half my life anything happened I can guarantee I'd do it again and sooner or later I would kill another child. I've done it before and at the time I liked it. Did your execution do any good? I think it would. I think a few child molesters anyway are going to think twice
before they do anything again. How do you live with yourself daily? At times it's not easy, I said. There's times I think about what I've done. I think about some of the things the boys said before they died and and that's real hard to think about. At other times, they just try to put everything out of my mind. Do you look forward to dying? In a way, yeah, I could be a relief. I don't have to think about all
these things anymore. And I know that's the only way I can guarantee I'm not going to hurt anybody else. Total, you know, isolation from everybody that I had been with for almost 6 years. The first week I was here was the worst week. The last 10 years was just like that. Years of a drug nightmare days. Of not knowing where. You are or what you've done.
Living in prison every day is a struggle even at its best, and I know that without him and his strength that has sustained me, I couldn't have made it even this far. I'm sorry for the hurt that I've caused so many people today, if it were possible. I wish that I could take every bit of hurt on myself. You want to control your destiny. That's that's right. That's right. That's a good way to, I mean, that's what this is all about. That's a good way to say it.
You got two types of people. You got people that lead and people that follow. And I just decided I wasn't going to be a follower. How many people have you killed? I mean, what is it that you want to come clean about? I have several homicides that I personally have dealings with and there's been other people that was involved, but I'll never reveal their names ever because has nothing to do. This is me. This is my and my life. I'm writing this story. When this all first started, I
was in the Ohio penitentiary. I'd come to a decision in the Ohio prison that I was serving 26 to life there. And I just, I just, I can't conceive that amount of time. The information that I have and the things that I know and the things that I've been a part of could get me to where I wanted to be probably a lot quicker because I'd rather be, to be
honest with you. I'd rather be deceased, dead, than to be spend my life in prison and watch my family drop off 1 by 1. And when I die in the end of an old man from being in prison, no one left to mourn me when I'm dead. Let me ask you, John, how does it does it make it easier to kill someone because you, you vision everything you look at everything other than your family is just one and the same, basically an object.
Does that make it easier? I would have to say it would for I can't conceive or understand why people, families want to, they seek for closure after things like this. I can't, I don't understand that. I don't understand how you got people that like in militaries that kill people, soldiers and then they have to go through therapy and, and 'cause they're, I mean, I, I can't understand what it is that people, I can't figure it out why, why they feel
bad, why they feel that way. So what, what is it that you want to happen next? I know that you, you know, you basically want to control your destiny and you want people to listen. And what, where, where do you go next? I mean, what, what happens? But I'm still see the end for me, it's it'll be soon, it'll be within, it'll be within my family's lifetime. And which is OK with me because what you want is to die.
That's correct. That's the only thing worthy of a warrior, I guess you could say. Tell me in a sentence who you are. Nobody. I'm nobody. Death. It happens to everybody. I'm not. I don't fear being dying. The only thing I that I even worry about is the emotions that my family might feel. When you die, where do you think you'll go? Do you think death will be better? I personally feel that that personally that if there is a God if if there is a devil.
But you're not much. In answering my direct question, a lot was made that you're a devil worshipper. Do you worship the devil? Have you ever studied Satanism? I personally don't care either way because I refuse to worship anything that I can't. That's not, you know, tangible or made yourself known to me or I feel like it's a conspiracy. You know what I'm saying? And I so I'll never bow down to anything or anybody. It's not in my blood.
And if there is a God or a devil, if I go, if I could get sent the whatever use, but hell, if I get sent there, I'll spend my whole life trying to eternity trying to take over hell. Because I'll bow down to no person, no entity, no being, no God of this world, no God of any other world or any other universe. Kill 13 people. It would be improper for me to comment on my LA convictions and on my pending case here in San Francisco. Why? Because of my appeals.
Are you appealing these because you say you're innocent? You didn't kill 13 people. That is correct. You didn't kill 13 people. Again, it would be improper for me to comment in any regard to that question. You have now entered a very rare group of people in this country. You're in the the ranks of Charlie Manson, Ted Bundy. You claim you didn't commit these murders, but you're right in there. Now, as far as everybody else is just serial killers do on a small scale what governments do
on a large one. They are a product of the times. And these are bloodthirsty times. Even psychopaths have emotions if you dig deep enough. But then again, maybe they don't. Do you have emotions, Richard? No comment. Tell me what kind of emotions you got going through you right now. I'll tell you what. I gave up on love and happiness a long time ago. Why I I don't care to explain that. Let the let the quote stand for itself, people.
People in this day and age are brainwashed and programmed like a computer at being nothing more than puppets. This nation, this country is founded in violence. Violent delights tend to have violent ends. It's madness is something rare in individuals, but in groups, people in ages, it is a rule. Killing is killing, whether done for duty, profit or fun. Men murdered themselves into this democracy. You, you got to read in your script, Richard, but you're not much in answering my direct
question. A lot was made that you're a devil worshipper. Do you worship the devil? Have you ever studied Satanism? There are different sects of Satanism. Have you just yes or no? Have you studied Satanism? Yes, I have. Are you, are you a worshipper of the devil? No comment. Come on, Richard, I can tell you a little bit about Satanism. Well, I'm, I'm interested in hearing what you got to say. Then it is undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self deceit.
It is power, power without charity, but. Satan admits to being evil. Do you admit to being evil, Richard? We are all evil. In some form or another, are we not? I'm asking you the questions, my friend. Yes, I am evil. Not 100%, but I am evil. Evil has always existed. The perfect world most people seek shall never come to pass. And it's going to get worse. Your father passed away OK on the 10th. My dad died 13 days ago. 13 days. Ago on June 10th. But you will.
Die or you are scheduled for execution for only 8 days? Yes, Sir. How are you doing? You know, you know, I'm a Christian, so you know, I believe that, you know, paradise awaits one way or the other. So I tell people all the time I'm either going home or home. So I'm either going home to the world or home to God. So I'll, you know, as the days get closer, I can feel the pressure on my shoulders. They call it clinical depression where I just start having less motivation to do things, less
energy. You get frustrated at the at the system. How can they not see, you know, my situation is wrong? You know, I, I, I used to write all the time and have a lot of energy and I just don't have it anymore. I just feel like I've been beaten down. And you were sent on a outward bound. Trip into Florida, yeah, that wasn't that well, you know, I'm a city boy at heart, you know
what I'm saying? I I'm really not into the nature and bugs and and the the weather and I, you know, so you know, when he, they sent me on a A2 week canoe trip, which sounds wonderful for me. But yeah, you know, you know, I like the canoe, but what it what was it wasn't the canoeing, it was bad. It was, it is an Everglades. I mean, we're seeing alligators everywhere. Now my question is, and I didn't even realize that until I got
here. What happened? If I would have fell out and got eaten by an alligator, who would have been responsible? You know, did my parents sign some type of waiver because there was alligators everywhere? Well, a young man of 13, you better watch out and and handle the alligators well. Yeah, yeah. But what happened then? You, you didn't. Well, I think on the 3rd or 4th day we would canoe until like night time and pull in. I guess they had certain
designations marked. And sometimes we pull in like at midnight, there's bugs. You can reach out and grab a handful of bugs and then they want us to cook dinner. And you know, I'm like, man, I can't. And one of them things of the program was to teach you immediate, you know, every action there's a there's a reaction. So immediate consequences to
your decision. And one of the things I learned is that if I don't pay attention to the lessons, we had these bags for our property and you had a ceiling, right? Or they wouldn't be waterproof. Well, I didn't listen and it fell in the water and all my stuff got wet. So I didn't have my own tent. I didn't have no toilet paper anymore. And I didn't like that. So basically I was my typical stubborn self. And I told him, you know what? I ain't doing this no more.
Take Me Home. But you were not attacked by alligators. No, we were attacked by monkeys though. But monkeys were absolutely monkeys were jumping from one side to the trees on the other side we were at and come trying to come over there. And they couldn't figure out where the monkeys came from. But there was a whole bunch of them. A whole bunch. I wanted to get out and get one but they said they have diseases, right? The details of of what happened, but the fact is that three
people were killed. And you deny that you were even close to the scene or how how do you there's no longer a question. There's no longer a question of my innocence. That's the question is out the door. The question is, what is anyone going to do about it now? I mean, a perfect example is you're here with these guys, They show up at your hotel room in a car. You're going to assume that that car is, you know, these are your friends.
So when Jason shows up to pick me up in a car, I'm going to assume it's OK. You get it. You get arrested and you come to find out he just murdered someone from that car. You're going to end up on Texas death row. You're going to end up right here because you trusted one of these guys to show up and pick you up in a in a real car that wasn't just stolen, but trusting in Jason was a bad choice anyway. Let's let's face it, he was well, you know, some sort of a
bad apple and so so were you. I was homeless and starving so and where could I get my using drugs and stealing and drugs. He offered me a place to stay. He offered me food, so I chose I chose that which I shouldn't have. I regret it every, every minute. Now. Cherish every minute. Cherish every minute. I'll make the most of it because you know they can. They can, they can. Do you like me?
Be in the wrong situation at the wrong time and there's no telling what you end up. You might want to get out of Texas as soon as possible. You've got me annoyed with you now. Yeah. That's the truth. How mad are you? I bet. Pretty. I feel a little flushed. So that's means that I've reached the point in my life that I'm a little annoyed. What would you like to do Doesn't matter. I don't think it's gone to the point that I'm actually going to
do anything stupid. Just curious to myself why it's. Why it happened, I don't know why it happened. I'm I'm actually almost glad it did happen because you had a chance to see something, but I don't know why it's the why it happened. Did you feel I was criticizing you? Yes. All I'm asking you to do, if you find in your heart Mr. Heaven, is to give me a second chance of life. How is the person you are now different from the person you were when you got on death row 21 years ago?
More thoughtful. Love myself more. I've I had the privilege of witnessing his compassion, his thoughtfulness. And I'm not the only one. He's had many other pen pals around the world and has had a huge impact on their lives as well. I understand too, that if I do get clemency, I know that instead of dying on the 19th, I may die years later, but it won't be in the free ground. It'll be in prison.
And I can accept it because there's other avenues and prisons that I can take to better myself and to better others along the way. And. Yeah, someone tells you something. There's bullshit. Right. They're telling you something so they can set you up for something they want you to do with them so they can move the situation around. Towards you going to help. Them I I guess. I guess people do that. I don't know. I don't. That's why I'm locked up. 45 years this time.
Yeah, it's for over. Over some bullshit. Two years last time. It's a long time. And you know why I've been locked up for these years. Why is that? Because I had no help. Yeah. I I, I, I think you're 100% right. My mother went to prison, right? And ain't nobody to back me up. It's a long hard Rd. represents. They want to back me up and tell me I love you, Charlie, right? There was some kind of game they want me to run and tell you something so they can send you up for something.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And those guys that you're talking to? OK, those guys that you're talking, let's call Andrew. Our telephone number will be monitored and recorded. Did you ever read how many gears they cut off? Who's that? I got a picture of you. I know I've sent you quite a few. I want to get one phone call. And I got three people. I got a call. All righty. I'm just telling you, man, only trust my knee. OK, That's cute. That's that's such good advice.
Some don't tell anyone anything. Make it interpret and make it something to tell. That's good advice. If you say I've seen it, show me in the car. They'll write and tell you that I stole the car, right? Yeah. And they're two cents to make it to the something they want. I got a. Roll so I'll call you when I. Can. All right, my brother. Thank you for calling man.
You take care of yourself. The clowning was relaxation for me. I enjoyed entertaining kids like some people are, you know, they they unwind in different ways. Either we're going out drinking or that I could put on clown makeup and I was relaxed and I enjoyed doing it. I was twice. It was only twice a month that I did. Yeah. This was not using for a lure to to draw kids to you as as no we would visit different hospitals. And entertain the children
there. And we didn't entertain them with handcuffs or anything like that. All we used was balloon animals and small toys and stuff like that. But we also did parades and in the summertime, like a 4th of July, I used to be in four parades in one day. I've always told people when when I got into clown makeup, I regressed in the childhood, it was fun being a clown because you could, you could be yourself or just let yourself go and act a fool.
You could be slapstick and funny and have a good a good time. That's why I always enjoyed clowning. Clowning has taken a bad name I because of what they've used in my. I'm a patient person, got a good listening ear and try to help people. You're patient with a good ear, and you try to help people, yes. When you're not trying to murder them, yes. When Calendar's reign of terror ended, three were dead, including his 14 year old son. You murdered your own son.
Yes, I did. Why did you do that? He was a sacrifice. I was to murder 3 million people, the planet Earth. And he was a sacrifice to see if I could murder one of my own. At the end of murdering all the people on earth, I was going to murder my own family and then take my own life and become God. What do you think of the death penalty? I'm opposed to it. The state has no right to take your life, but you can murder other people. I don't think anyone has the
right to take a life except you. When I'm under hallucination, I do these voices from God. These hallucinations do you still experience? Them. Yes, I do often. Often. Do you ever feel violent? Yes, I do. What do you feel like doing? Killing people? You still feel like killing people? Yes. Describe the feeling that you get when you feel like killing. People Well, last March 11th, I was hallucinating and I took a razor blade and I cut a man's throat. Here in the hospital.
Here in the hospital. Do you think you'd murder me, Joe? Yes. That's gruesome, Joe. That's horrible. Yes, it is. And you don't blame me if I say I hope you never get out of this place. I hope I never do either. Altered. Well, they weren't really spontaneous. I altered how I approached these young ladies from the point of capture, from the first time. What I had wanted to do was to secure them and to suffocate them with plastic bags over
their heads. I've had some completely unrealistic perspective that that was quick, that they would lose consciousness rapidly. But the first young lady that was in the back seat, that was Mary Ann Pesch, I finally secured her. She argued a lot. She was dialoguing, trying to change up control of the situation. She had already decided I was in control. I was trying to gain control. I was convinced she was in control of it.
So for about 20 minutes, we were arguing back and forth over what was going to happen and I was trying to keep it away from what was intended, which was murder. And I decided at that time I wasn't going to tell anyone I was going to rape them. I didn't say that at the time, but I left that wide open is the avenue that I was just going to be a sexual release. And that got them very distressed.
And it was obvious to me that if I was going to pursue what I was doing, that distress had to stop. So I went into a unfortunately more effective behavior of letting them help me. I let more of my personality come out and I was suicidal, very disturbed, grasping out of someone. I had abducted them and I wasn't going to let them out of the car because I was tired of people walking away from me. So some of that was very true.
But I manipulated that to allow them to help me to the point of resolving their behavior until we got to a place where they could be killed. And that has, I have the biggest problem with that on my guilt basis, because obviously that entailed unusual trust between the the captor of the perpetrator and the victim of the crime. At one point, in fact, on the 4th victim of the crime, Miss Shaw, she actually got back into the trunk under her own power.
I had a cast on my left arm. It was broken. And I walked her back to the trunk of the car where I told her I was going to keep her undercover so that I could get her to my home or we could talk. But I didn't want neighbors seeing her coming to the house or leaving the house. And it I made that sound realistic to her so she would didn't want to get in the trunk but was willing to. In 9th grade in biology class, we had the usual dissection of
fetal pigs. And I took, I took the remains of that home and kept the skeleton of it. And I just started branching out. Dogs, cats. I suppose it could have turned into a, a normal hobby like taxidermy. And all I know is that I wanted to, to see what the insides of these animals looked like. I I there may have been some violence involved, some underlying subconscious feelings of violence. I just it was a it was a compulsion became a compulsion. What would you do with the with
the dead animals? Jeff take them back in the woods, skin them sometimes slit them, slit them all the way open. Look at the organs, feel them. Can you describe what you were thinking is? I was, It was just mystifying to me how how the insides of the animal looked. There was a sort of general excitement for me. I don't know why it was. It was exciting to see and I acted on my fantasies and that's where everything went wrong. Did you ever tell yourself?
I have to stop this. I must stop doing this. Yes. When it was going on. After, after the second time, it seemed like the compulsion to do it was too strong. And I, I didn't even try to stop it after that. But after, before the second time, things had been building up gradually, going to bookstores, going to the bars, the gay bars, bath clubs. When that did, when that wasn't enough, buying sleeping pills and and using it on various guys in the bath clubs, it just
escalated slowly but surely. And after the second time, which was not planned, it was out of control. Felt like it was out of control. Were you relieved to be arrested? Part of me, part of me was and part of me wasn't. Explain. I don't know. It's, it's like, I don't believe I have a split personality. But you, you know, the feeling where, oh, you're, you're sort of glad about something, but on the other hand, you're not. That's, that's how it was.
I was, it was a relief not to have to keep such a gigantic secret that I had kept for so many years. And once I saw that I had no choice but to face it, I decided to face it head on and make a full confession. So I am glad that the secrets are are gone. I I just get angry with other people who, who think that they have a right to, to somehow try to blame my parents for what happened. That's not right at all. No one has the right to do that because they're totally
innocent. They had no knowledge of it. And that angers me. Ted, it is about 2:30 in the afternoon. You are scheduled to be executed tomorrow morning at 7:00 if you don't receive another stay. What is going through your mind? What thoughts have you had in these last few days? Well, I won't kid you to say that it's something that I feel that I am in control of or something that I've come to terms with because I haven't.
It's a moment by moment thing. Sometimes I feel very tranquil and other times I don't feel tranquil at all. What's going through my mind right now is to use the minutes and hours that I have left as fruitfully as possible and see what happens. It helps to to live in the moment, in the in the essence that we use it productively. So I'm right now, I'm feeling calm and in large part because I'm here with you. For the record, you are guilty
of killing many women and girls. Yes, yes, that's true. Ted, how did it happen? Take me back. What are the antecedents of the behavior that we've seen? So much grief, so much sorrow, so much pain for so many people. Where did it start? How did this moment come about? That's the question of the hour and and when. One that not only people much more intelligent than I have been working on for for years, but one that I've been working on for years and trying to understand it.
Is there enough time to explain it all? I don't know. I think I understand it though. Understand what happened to me to the extent that I, I, I can see how certain feelings and ideas developed in me to the point where I began to act out on them certain very violent and very destructive feeling. Let's go back then to those roots. First of all, you, as I understand it, were raised in what you consider to have been a healthy home. You are not physically abused.
You are not sexually abused. You are not emotionally abused. No, no way. I, and that's part of the tragedy of this whole situation is because I grew up in a wonderful home with two dedicated and loving parents, one of five brothers and sisters, a home where we as our as children with a focus of of my parents lives where we regularly attended church. 2 Christian parents who did not drink, they did not smoke. There was no gambling, there was no physical abuse or fighting in the home.
I'm not saying this was Leave at the Beaver. It wasn't a perfect no, no, no, I don't know that such a home exists. But it was a fine, solid Christian home and nobody, I hope no one will try to take the easy way out and to try to blame or otherwise accuse my, my family of contributing to this. Because I know, and I'm trying to tell you as honestly as I know how, what happened. And I think this is a message I'm going to get across.
But as a young, a young boy, and I mean the boy of 12/13 certainly that I encountered outside the home again in the local grocery store, the local drugstore, the softcore pornography, what people call softcore. But as I think I I explained to you last night, Doctor Dobson, an anecdote. As young boys do, we explored the the back roads and sideways and byways of our neighborhood. And often times people would dump the garbage and whatever they're cleaning out of their house.
And from time to time we'd come across so pornographic books of a harder nature than more graphic, you might say a more explicit nature than we would encounter, let's say, in your local grocery store. And this also included such things as, let's say, detective magazines and those that involve violence. Yes, yes. And I, and this is something I think I want to emphasize is the, the, the, the most damaging kinds of pornography. And my, again, I'm talking from personal experience, hard, real
personal experience. The most damaging kinds of pornography are those that involve violence and sexual violence. Because the wedding of those two forces as as I am know only too well brings about behaviour that is just, is just too terrible to describe. Now walk me through that. What was going on in your mind
at that time? OK, before we go any further, I think, you know, it's important to me and the people, the people believe what I'm saying, tell you that, that I'm not blaming pornography and not saying that it caused me to go out and do certain things. And I take full responsibility for whatever I've done and all the things that I've done.
That's not the question here. The question and, and, and the issue is how this kind of literature contributed and helped mold and and shape the kinds of violent behaviour fueled your falsies in the beginning. It fuels this kind of thought process.
Then at a certain time, it's instrumental in what would say crystallizing and making making into something which is almost like a separate entity inside and that at that point you're at the verge or I was at the verge of acting out on this on this kind of these kinds of things. I really want to understand that you had gone about as far as you could go in your own fantasy life with printed material and you made or printed in video or film or film magazines. What happened?
And, and then there was the urge to take that little step or big step over to a physical event. And it happens it it happened in stages, gradually. It doesn't necessarily, not to
me at least, happen overnight. My experience with, I'd say pornography generally, but with pornography that deals on a violent level with the sexuality, is that once you become addicted to it, and I look at this as a kind of addiction, like other kinds of addiction of addiction you keep, I would keep looking for more potent, more explicit, more
gracious kinds of material. Like an addiction, you keep craving something which is harder, harder, something which which gives you a greater sense of of of excitement until you reach the point where the pornography only goes so far. You reach that jumping off point where you begin to wonder if if maybe actually doing it will give you that which is beyond just reading about it or looking at it. How long did you stay at that point before you actually assaulted someone? Well, yeah.
You see, that is a very delicate point in my own development. And we're talking about something. We're talking about having reached the point or a Gray area that surrounded that point over the course. You don't remember years, how long? Well, I would say, I would say a couple years.
And what was I was dealing with? There were very strong inhibitions against criminal behavior or violent behavior that had been conditioned into me, bred into me in my environment, in my neighborhood, in my church, in my school, things which said, no, this is wrong. I mean, just even to think of it as wrong, but it certainly to do it is wrong. And you're on I'm on that edge.
And these the last, the, the, you might say, the last vestiges of restraint, the barriers to actually doing something, were being tested constantly, and assault assailed through the kind of fantasy life that was fueled largely by pornography. Do you remember what pushed you over that edge? Do you remember the decision to go for it? Do you remember where you decided to throw caution to the wind again? When you say pushed, I don't.
I know what you're saying. I don't want to infer again, I understand that that I was that I was some helpless kind of a victim. And yet we're talking about an influence which that is the influence of violent types of media and violent pornography, which hadn't was an indispensable link in the chain of behaviour, the chain of events that led to the behaviors to the, to the assaults, to the murders and what and what have you.
It's a it's a very difficult thing to describe the, the sensation of the the of, of reaching that point where you where I knew that it, it was like something had say snapped that I knew that, that I couldn't control it anymore, that these barriers that that I had, that had been, I'd learned as a child that had been instilled in me were not enough to hold me back with respect to seeking out and and harming somebody. Would it be accurate to call out
a, a, a frenzy, a sexual frenzy? Well, yes, that's one way to describe it. A compulsion a a building up of of this destructive energy Again, I another factor here the way I haven't mentioned is the use of alcohol. But I think that what alcohol did in conjunction with, let's say, my exposure to pornography was alcohol reduced my inhibitions. At the same time, the, the, the fantasy life that was fuelled by pornography eroded them further.
In the early days, you were nearly always about half drunk when you did these things. Is that right? Yes. Yes. Was that always true? Yeah. I I would say that that was generally the case. Almost. What? What? All right, if I can understand it now, there is this battle going on within. There are the conventions that you've been taught. There's the right and wrong that you learned as a child.
And then there is this this unbridled passion fuelled by your plunge into hardcore violent pornography. And those things are at war with each other. And then with the alcohol diminishing the the inhibitions, you let go. Well. Yes, and to you can summarize it that way and it's accurate certainly. And it, it just occurred to me that some people would, would say that, well, I, I've seen that stuff and it doesn't do anything to me.
And I can understand that. I virtually everyone can be exposed to so-called pornography and while they're aroused to it to 1° or another and not go out and do anything wrong. Addictions are like that. They affect some people more than they affect others. But there is a percentage of people affected by hardcore pornography in a very violent way. And you're obviously one of them. That was a major component and I don't know why I was vulnerable to it.
All I know is that that it had an impact on me that was just so central to the development of the violent behaviour that I engaged in. Ted, after you committed your first murder, what was the emotional effect on you? What happened in the days after that? Well, again, this please understand that even all these years later, it's very difficult to talk about it and, and, and relieving it through talking about it. It it's difficult to say the least, but I want you to
understand what happened. It was like coming out of some kind of horrible trance or, or dream. I can only liken it to after, you know, I, I don't want to over dramatize it, but to have been possessed by something so
awful and so alien. And then the next morning, wake up from it, remember what happened and realize that basically, I mean, in the eyes of the law, certainly in the eyes of God, you're responsible to, to wake up in the morning and, and realize what I had done and with a clear mind and all my essential moral and ethical feelings intact at that moment, absolutely horrified that I was capable of doing something like that. You really hadn't known that
before. There is just absolutely no way to describe first the brutal urge to do that kind of thing. And then what happens is once it it has been more or less satisfied and recede, you might say, or spent that that sense, that kind of energy level recedes. And basically I became my myself again. And I want people to understand this too. And I'm not saying this gratuitously because it's important that people understand this, that basically I was a
normal person. I wasn't some guy hanging out at bars or a bum or I wasn't a pervert in the sense that, you know, people look at somebody and say, I know there's something wrong with him and just tell. I mean, I, I was essentially a normal person. I had good friends. I, I, I live a normal life except for this one small but very potent and very destructive segment of it that I kept very secret and very close to myself and didn't let anybody know about it.
And part of the shock and horror from my dear friends and family when, years ago, when I was first arrested, was that they just, there was no clue. They looked at me and they looked at the, you know, the, the all American boy. And I'm, I mean, that wasn't perfect, but it was just, I want to be quite candid with you. I was, I was OK, OK, I was. And the basic humanity and and basic spirit that God gave me was intact. But unfortunately it became
overwhelmed at times. I think people need to recognize that it's not some kind of those of us who are, who have been so much influenced by violence in the media, in particular pornographic violence are not some kinds of inherent monsters. We are your sons and we are your husbands and we grew up in regular families and pornography can reach out and snatch a kid out of any house today. He snatched me out of my He snatched me out of my home 20-30 years ago.
And as diligent as my parents were, and they were diligent in protecting their children and as good a Christian home as we had and we had a wonderful Christian home. There is no protection against the kind that the kinds of influences that are loose in the society that that that tolerates. You feel this really deeply, don't you, Ted? Outside these walls right now, there are several 100 reporters that wanted to talk to you. And you asked me to come here from California because you had
something you wanted to say. This hour that we have together is not just an interview with a man who's scheduled to die tomorrow morning. I'm here and you're here because of this message that you're talking about right here. You really feel that hardcore pornography and the doorway to it. Softcore pornography is doing untold damage to other people and causing other women to be abused and killed the way you did ours. Listen, I'm no social scientist and I haven't done a survey.
I mean, I, I don't pretend that I know what John Q Citizen thinks about this, but I've lived in prison for a long time now and I've met a lot of men who are motivated to commit violence just like me. And without exception, every one of them was deeply involved in pornography without question, without exception, deeply influenced and consumed by an addiction to pornography. There's no question about it.
The FB is own study on serial homicide shows that the most common interest among serial killers is pornography. That's true and it's and it's real. It's true, Ted. What would your life have been like without that influence? You can only speculate. Yeah, well, I I know it would have been far better, not just for me and, and it's excuse me for being so self-centered here. It would have been a lot better for me and lots of other people. I know that. Lots of other innocent people,
victims and families. It would have been a lot better. There's no question but that it would have been a, a, a, a fuller life. It's certainly a life that would not have involved. I'm absolutely certain would not have involved this kind of violence that I have been, that
I have committed. I'm sure, Ted, if you know, if I were able to ask you the questions that are being asked out there, one of the most important as you come down to perhaps your final hours, are you thinking about all those victims out there in their families who are so wounded you know, years later their lives have not returned to normal, They will never return to normal? Are you carrying that load that way?
Is the remorse there? Again, I, I know that people will accuse me of being self-serving, but we're beyond that now. I mean, I'm just telling you how I feel. But through God's help, I have been able to come to the point where I've much too late. But better late than never Feel the hurt and the pain that I am responsible for. Yes, absolutely.
In the past few days, myself and a number of investigators have been talking about unsolved cases, murders that I was involved in. And it's hard to, it's hard to talk about all these years later because it revives in me all those terrible feelings and those thoughts that I have steadfastly and, and, and, and diligently dealt with and I think successfully with the love of God. And yet it's reopened that and I felt the pain and I felt the
horror again of all that. And I can only hope that those who I've harmed, those who I've caused so much grief, even if they don't believe my expression of sorrow and remorse, will believe what I'm saying now. That there is loose in their towns and their communities. People like me today, whose dangerous impulses are being fueled day in and day out by violence in the media in its various forms, particularly sexualized violence. And what scares me.
And let's come into the present now because what I'm talking about happened 3020, thirty years ago. That is in my formative stages. And what scares and appalls me, Doctor Dobson, is when I see what's on cable TV, some of the movies, I mean, some of the violence in the movies that come into homes today with stuff that they that they wouldn't show in an X-rated adult theatres 30 years ago.
This stuff, the slasher movies that you're talking about, that stuff is, I'm telling you from personal experience the most. That is graphic violence on screen, particularly as it gets into the home to children who may be unattended or or unaware that they may be a Ted Bundy who has that that vulnerability to that, that predisposition to be influenced by that kind of behavior, by that kind of of movie, that kind of violence.
There are kids sitting out there switching the TV dial around and come upon these movies late at night or I don't know when they're on, but they're on and any kid can watch them. It's scary when I think what would have happened to me if I had seen it was scary enough. I mean, that I just ran into stuff outside the home. But to to know that children are watching that kind of thing today or can pick up their phone and dial away for it or send away for it.
Can you help me understand this desensitization process that took place? What was going on in your mind? Well, by desensitization, I describe it in specific terms, is that each time I'd harm someone, each time I'd kill someone, there'd be an enormous amount, especially at first, enormous amount of of of horror, guilt, remorse afterwards. But then that impulse to do it again would come back even stronger. Now, believe me, I didn't.
The unique thing about how this worked, Doctor Dobson, is that I still felt in my regular life the full range of, of guilt and, and remorse about other things, regret. And you had this compartmentalized, this compartmentalized, very well focused, very sharply focused area where I, it was like a black hole. It was like a, you know, like a crack. And everything that fell into that crack just disappeared.
Yeah, it does. One of the the final murders that you committed, of course, was apparently little Kimberly Leach, 12 years of age. I think the the public outcry is greater there because an innocent child was taken from a from a playground. What did you feel after that? What was there? Were there the normal emotions? Three days later? Where were you, Ted? I, I can't really talk about that right now. That's who we are. That's too painful.
I would like to, I'd like to be able to convey to you what that, that that experience is like, but I can't, I won't be able to talk about that. I can't begin to understand. Well, I can try, but I'm, I'm aware that I can't begin to understand the pain that the parents of these of these children that I have and these young women that I have harmed feel. And I can't restore really much to them, if anything. And I will pretend to. And I don't even expect them to forgive me.
And I'm not asking for it. That that kind of forgiveness is of God. And if they have it, they haven't, they don't. Well, maybe they'll find it someday. Do you deserve the punishment the state is inflicted upon you? That's a very good question and I'll answer very, very honestly. I don't want to die. I'm not going to kid you. I'll kid you not.
I deserve certainly the the most extreme punishment society has and I deserve, I think society deserves to be protected from me and from others like me, that's for sure.
I think what I what I hope will come of our discussion is I think society deserves to be protected from itself because because of we as as we've been talking, there are there are forces that loosen in in this country, particularly again, this kind of violent pornography where on the one hand, well meaning, decent people will condemn behavior of a Ted Bundy while they're walking past a a magazine rack full of the very kinds of things that send young kids down the road to be Ted
Bundys. That's the irony. We're talking here not just about more, we're talking I'm. What I'm talking about is going beyond retribution, which is what people want with me. Going beyond retribution and punishment because there is no way in the world that killing me is going to restore those beautiful children to their parents and, and, and correct and, and, and, and soothe the
pain. But I'll tell you, there are lots of other kids playing in the streets around this country today who are going to be dead tomorrow and the next day and the next day and next month because other young people are reading the kinds of things and seeing the kinds of things that are available in the media today. Ted, as you would imagine, there's tremendous cynicism about you on the outside. And I suppose for good reason. I'm not sure that there's anything that you could say that
people would would believe. Some people would believe and and yet you told me last night, and I have heard this through our mutual friend John Tanner, that you have accepted the forgiveness of Jesus Christ and are a follower and a believer in him. Do you draw strength from that as you approach these final hours?
I do. I can't say that it's going to be being in the the valley of the shadow of death is it's something that I've become all that accustomed to and then I'm, you know, and then I'm strong and nothing's bothering me. Listen, it's no fun. It's it's, you know, it's, it's, it's gets kind of lonely. And yet I have to remind myself that every one of us will go through this someday in one way or another. And countless millions who have walked this earth before us have.
So this is just an experience which we all share. Yeah, right on. And I'm telling you because the cops let me keep killing them. Nick. Nick, Nick, get it? Not everybody is killing seven people. So there must have been something in you that was getting you. Oh, you are lost, Nick. You are lost, Nick. You are lost, Nick. I was a hitch hiking hooker. You're inhuman. You're an inhumane bunch of fucking living bastards and bitches and you're going to get
your asses nuked in the end. And pretty soon it's coming. 2019, a rock's supposed to hitch you anyhow. You're all going to get nuked. You don't take fucking human life like this and just sabotage and RIP it apart like Jesus on the cross and say thanks a lot for all the fucking money I made off of you and not care about a human being. And the truth being told, now I know what Jesus was going
through. They've been trying to tell the truth and I keep getting it stepped on, concerned about if I was raped. If I, I'm not giving you book and movie info, I'm giving you info for investigations and stuff and that's it. We're going to have to cut this interview, Nick. I'm not going to go into any more detail.