Coming to you from the dining room table at East Barbary Lane. Welcome to a very special edition of Full Circle the podcast.
I am your host, Charles Tyson Jr.
And I'm your host Martha Madrigal. Today we're talking about the film regarding us. We had the absolute pleasure of watching the film last night, and I had to watch it again this morning because I knew there were pieces I missed, so I put it on my phone so I couldn't play with my phone, and I got so much more. So I have a ton of notes we have with us. One of the writers who is also the director of this film, David Beck, Welcome to the Full Circle Table.
Thank you so much for having me.
Absolutely, you were several hats in this film. First of all, you start in it. You're one of the prime characters in this film. Directed and wrote it, wrote it with Jennifer Bobby.
Yeah, with the great Jennifer Bobby, and I also produced it as one of the film Yeah. It's based on what's inspired by I suppose a short film called Backup Plan that played in film festivals around the world in twenty nineteen, and Jennifer Bobby actually played Veronica, the lead role in the short film, and then we decided to you know, we always had a plan to make it bigger,
We had bigger ideas for it. First it was a TV series that we wrote, but then I sort of I could see how to get a feature film produced, and for a TV series it's very difficult, so I thought, well, what we go that route instead? But I think it works pretty well as a feature film.
I think ultimately beautifully as the feature film. I really do, thank you.
Jennifer's character was a who so, yes, yeah, she's She's quite funny. She's most famous for her character Aunt Barbara. She was the top selling Tupperware snails person in all of North America. I think like five years in a row or something, Okay, And yeah, she ABC did a short documentary on her life and transition, and she was on all the you know shows selling tupperware, Good Morning America, the Today Show, all of the morning shows selling Tupperware
as Aunt Barbara. So just google Aunt Barbara and you'll you'll have many laughs.
I will do that. I will do that. So who wrote the short, Jennifer or you?
I wrote the short, but we, I mean, we collaborated very closely, just to get like the the sense right, you know, and as the lead actress, she had a lot of ideas that she brought to the table. Yeah, okay, can.
We talk about what the backup plan is? What that red?
Yeah, so backup plan basically, backup Plan took place in real time. It was a fifteen minute short film and it was the events I guess that were like the end of the first act of the film where my character Denny goes as the Shakespeare telegram and delivers the form. But Jennifer always says, well, you know, once you get suicidal ideation in your mind, it's always sort of in the back of your mind, like it's always sort of an option.
So that's right, it's always on the table.
It's always on the table exactly. So that was, you know, it's a backup plan so in case, you know, something goes awry that you don't feel like there are any options that you know it. I mean, it's sad to say, but that's sort of always on the table, you know. So that that's the back a plan, you know. And the film The Little Girl Isabelle played by Andrea Rosa Guzman. She asks Veronica played by Alexander Gray in the feature uh, you know, because she reads her suicide letter. She says,
she asks her what's her what's your backup plan? You know, I want to know what your backup plan is, which I think is kind of a poignant moment, you know, for a little kid to ask that.
Yeah, one of many, Yeah, yeah. And you know that's so much throughout this film rings true, you know, And I don't particularly care if it's a good film or a bad film. I love this movie, by the way, But my point being, you can tell you can see our fingerprints all over everything truth. When there are trans people involved in telling trans stories and queer people involved in telling queer stories, it's obvious it you feel it.
You know, I know that person exactly. I had to mothers I had, you know, I had two of them, still have one who so influenced my life, and who is the person I know I can run and cry to or whatever I need. She's there.
Oh well, thank you for saying that. I mean, that's beautiful. I mean that's why we really wanted to tell an authentic story. And you know, I'm proud that we had trans representation basically on every level, from our executive producer Martine Rothblatt, our associate producer, Marcy Bauers, doctor Marcy Bauers that we're talking about. And then obviously Jennifer Bobby Are writer director all the way down to our production assistant, our art production assistant, you know. So I just, you know,
we wanted to tell a true story and it was inspired. Obviously, it's all about the Catholic Church, and Jennifer and I both went to Catholic school for you know, all through grade school and high school, so we you know, we could draw on those experiences.
So we just I knew some but he did. I knew somebody did.
This of our childhood and kind of combined them. You know.
I spent thirteen years in that bad boy, so I understand.
Yeah. Yeah, it was a lot of lessons there to learn and unlearned.
Yes, yes, you know, and I think I think they've pushed most of us out, you know, or kept us in the closet. In terms of teachers in Catholic school. You know, I had a good friend who also taught my son, who got fired because he had a civil union in New Jersey. He lived in New Jersey and
worked in Philadelphia at a private Catholic school. And when marriage equality passed and he could have a marriage, he just kind of went to the principal and said, you know, I'm going to be late for that in service day we're picking up our marriage license. And he was summarily fired. You know. It was almost like don't do this or And you know the thing was all of the priests and folk around that school were at the you know, they had a reception when they civil union because no
one knew that there would ever be anything more. And everybody was cool with that, right, I mean because through the queers and Catholic school, you don't have to throw a rock far and look at the theology department, you know, I'm serious, and the clergy and the h and you know, it was like don't if you're going to do this, you can't work here anymore. And this is this is a man who loved that school so much. You know, he went away to college and came back to teach there,
passionate teacher everyone adored. And that was the bottom, like this is still a Catholic school, you know, so you you hit on.
That, you know what, Martha, I just have to rejects because it was so ironic that after we wrote the first draft of the feature in twenty twenty, at the height of the pandemic, that happened to an English teacher of mine that I had, and he also went to high school there. I'm from Kettering, Ohio Archbischophalter High School. He'd been teaching there for twenty years. You know, he was with got married, you know, when it was legalized, and just was fired just in twenty twenty, after he'd
been teaching there for years. Everybody knew he was gay. Nobody cared. I mean even you know in two thousand and one and nobody cared. And now all of a sudden, people care. It seems like people so certain areas of the country are getting you know, pretty conservative. I mean, I know, they're cracking down on teaching and you have to sign an agreement about you won't you know, about abortion, and you won't encourage abortions, and they have to sign their life away. It's yeah, it's insane.
The list of the things you can't teach is way longer than the things you can.
So it's like, well, what's going to be left? And you know, I'm willing to stay out of the decisions of religious schools if they you know, if the religious will stay out of the decisions of public schools, that's that would be my preference. You know. I guess if you want to discriminate and this is the way you want to do it, and you know this is your bottom line, you know that's been the argument, and I guess fine. You know, we were talking before we started
to record. We just had Nico Lang here for a week and the first event that we did was a Tuesday evening and I did it very intentionally in a u U church that is local to hear because it doesn't get much more liberal, I think, or more open, because you're going to be an atheist and go to
a Unitarian Universalist church, right. And I called several of the churches that I know are affirming all year long, because regardless of my personal beliefs or where I stand, I know how important that is for a lot of us, and a lot of us are just trying to heal and trying to find that relationship and that connection again. And the evening was supposed to be about community, right, And I mean, I'm a counselor whatever works for you,
We're gonna that's where we're going to go. I liked the way it was handled, you know, I think that Alexandra did an amazing job portraying the conflict, right, the betrayal and sort of the ultimate really with reunification with her faith but not that church.
Yeah, yeah, we thank you for saying that. I I think it was a fascinating character because it's someone who sort of hold holds on to her faith, you know, despite the persecution and the discrimination, and it's like, well, I know the difference between faith and spirituality and religion, you know, and and faith is personal. It's you know, something that man cannot touch, you know, it's it's something sacred that's just between me and my higher power. And
I love that that. I mean, she's sort of, in a way was the wisest in the movie and the sanest person in the movie. You know, we all were kind of quirky, crazy characters, kooky characters, you know, including the kids, and she was just this this core, you know, stable force, the sense of calm in this world. And uh, that's what I that's what really drew me to the the story, into the projects, you know, that's what a
story we wanted to tell. So yeah, because a lot of times as LGBTQ people were kind of once we come out as whatever we are, we're almost obligated to, uh, you know, throw that away, you know, not just the religion, but like everything and and I think, you know, it's a it's a delicate conversation, but you know, there is a huge difference between spirituality and religion, and a lot of people enjoy the ritual of Catholicism or religion, you know,
the sacraments, the you know, the choir. You know that that was a big thing in the movie, like singing in the church choir and participate in you know, in the community, and it's like, what are we going to do? We're not welcome, you know.
It's the cadence of it all, Like you know that, That's one of the things I always loved about Mass was the cadence. You know, I knew what was coming next. It was almost meditative for me to be there. That's why a lot of folks I know are episcopal now because they're actually welcomed there, they're actually invited in as opposed to we just don't talk about you.
Yeah, I mean I played the piano and I've I've played the piano all through grade school and high school and Catholic Mass. And I enjoyed it because I got out of school a little early so I could rehearse, you know, and I loved it. I love doing it. But then now now I play for, yeah, an Episcopal church that's you know, all affirming and welcoming and it's great and they've never said anything that I've you know,
really have been horrified by. You know, sometimes they have pastors who I don't agree with everything, but like, you know, they're they're welcoming and that's a beautiful thing, it really is. Yeah, I don't know what to say about the Catholic Church. They need to get with the times. I mean, you know, they need to let priests to marry at least for on and so many.
Here's part of the one layer of the hypocrisy. By the way, because my kids went to a Ukrainian Catholic school, right and they're priests that they're kind of Eastern Orthodox, I guess in the way that they practice Catholicism recognized by the Roman Catholic Church. Their priests marry, their priests are allowed to marry, and they still you know, participate
in the sacraments, and those sacraments are honored. So it's like you've got these offshoots that are not really and it's perfectly fine, But the Roman Catholic Church still says, no, we need women in leadership.
Roles too, but we definitely do.
Yeah, So I mean that's the Episcopal Church seems to be, what is it, all of the pageantry and none of the guilt.
So yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I mean, which which makes sense why so many queer folks would gravitate that way, right.
The priest still wears a dress. It's just you know, not not the same. And they're allowed to be married, and they're allowed to have lives and so well.
Like you know, they're they're human beings, right, they have desires, they have needs, They you know, maybe want a family, and it's like we put them on a pedestal in the way that they're untouchable, that they're more godly than
another person. And I think we're realizing as a you know, as a community, as a global community, that we're all the same, we're all equal, you know, we have to stop idolizing these people who are somehow untouchable, and we're finding that out everywhere I mean not just with our spiritual leaders, but you know, celebrities, with with you know, obviously our politicians, with everyone. I mean, we're all human beings. And I think that there's there's no secrets anymore in
our world because we know everything now. We have all this information that everything's coming out, So whatever you do, it's going to come out somehow, just because of the global society we live in now. And it's like we all just have to be more forgiving and loving and more compassionate to each other.
And how many more examples do we need of the fact that repression breeds harmful behavior, you know, like A equals b. It's a direct correlation.
You know. One of the things that really struck me is this felt very much like a collaboration. I felt the village involved in this film just watching it right and of course reading the credits, I'm like, okay, there's mals Marsy Bowers, you know, and the acting was brilliant and all that, But talk to me about bringing this together. How did you take it from the short to this? That's a brilliant Thank you so much.
I Mean, my belief for filmmaking and directing is that it is a collaboration and that it doesn't matter who has the idea. If it's a good idea, let's do it. And we wanted Alexander to feel like she had a voice, you know, we you know, she was a producer on the film, and I thought that was very important because she's you know, carrying this film, and I really, I just I knew we had a bigger story to tell than the short.
I'm going to check it out on Amazon Prime because i want to see the genesis. You know, that led to the full film, and.
I'm a completionist, so now it's like, oh, there's something else that's involved.
I got to watch that too, now I have to.
Yes, and the little girl in it, Valeria also, she was actually one of the little girls in the Florida Project that film, the Ryan Baker film, which is wow, brilliant film. Okay, yeah, William Dafoe, I believe he was not made for an oscar for that warmans, but it's about the homeless camps outside Disney World in Florida. And
she was the little girl. She played Isabelle. But now she's like a teenager, you know, she's at sixteen, so she was too old Okay, we were very excited about the kids week ast.
Actually they were brilliant, Yeah, absolutely brilliant. Who played Isabelle Andrea.
Her name is Andrea Rosa Guzman. It's her very first screen project film. She's never done film or television before. She's a natural. She had a voiceover job at a Disney cartoon for Disney Plus about kindergart I think it's called Kindergarten. But she sings and you know, does crazy voices on that show, and such a talent.
She's got a beautiful voice. You know, she sang you.
Yeah, she did you.
Know one part in the film and we get to hear her voice.
Yeah. She actually performing in the Nutcracker right now.
I love she dances too, so of course she does triple threat.
Yes, but we got delayed filming so many times, and we were fifteen days out. We were supposed to film of the Summer twenty twenty two. We we couldn't. We lost funding. We were not able to secure like the funding we needed, which we thought was a guarantee, and we had to postpone filming by a year basically, and I said, you know what, let's just keep the kids we have because they're so great, and let's just pray that they don't, you know, have a growth spurt, right,
and let's just make them a year older. So they were originally in the third grade now and during the fourth grade. But it worked out because I had time to work with Andrea, just one on one, and just she and her mom and I would meet several times throughout the year and just we would just work on you know, just relaxing on camera and just you know, getting comfortable and building a relationship. And so that was
just really really helpful for the film. I don't know if we would have gotten the performances we were able to capture if we had filmed in twenty twenty two. So, you know, everything works out for a.
Reason, exactly. I believe it does. And you know, for me, fourth grade rang true, you know, because ugly bullied, I was really bullied in school didn't start until kind of the end of third grade, much more so in fourth grade. That's where actually kids get mean, I mean that's just where it starts.
I mean, it just makes a lot more sense, you know, fro fourth grade, because you're about to hit puberty. A lot of kids and a lot of kids are still like very kid. So it's like that, you know happens. Yeah, so it all works.
Out, it does, it does.
Going back to what you said, Martha about the authenticity of the film, that's something that I was thinking about for sure, and that comes from you know, us telling our own stories, because each of these characters, in different hands could easily be tropes.
Oh yeah, you know what I mean.
Like starting with our main character. You know, if this were any other Hollywood film, Veronica would have been like, you know, the magical Negro, you know what I mean, Like comes in to solve everyone's problems and show them the air of their ways and then disappears, you know
what I mean. But it she was a flawed character as well, and no one felt like everyone felt real, everyone felt like someone that I would have met, like your Your character reminded me of me when I was hustling as a as an artist, as a professional artist. You know, it's I'm going to do everything I can in front of everyone that I can until someone says, oh, here, let me give you a bag full of money for this thing that you're doing on the corner. Like I knew these people.
You did a great job presenting both a human and a marginally bad actor.
Thank you. I I kind of kicked myself in the foot sometimes seeing those clips, I'm like, oh god, there's so bad, Like what was I doing casting myself as a bad actor.
But I loved it. You did it well, You did it well. It was the character was lovable and approachable and real, and.
You got to be a good actor to be a bad actor on purpose.
That's true.
That's the other thing I'm going to say is that the storylines are queer stories. They just are. You know, there are not that many sis people that can identify sis het people who can identify with you know, losing their job, losing their home because of who they are. That doesn't happen. It's not a Saisset story the way you know, the inter play between the man that played your husband and you felt real, did feel real, and you,
you know, your reaction. So we see him not be there, he's absent, and you're trying to make up for it with the kid and tell the kid it's you know, it's okay, he's in France, you know, And then you got the kid in school going no, he's not. I saw him making out with some Asian dude around the corner. Your dad's not in France.
Yeah, he's a very sweet man. Elliott Garcia Kaufman. He plays my husband Adrian, and we I just, I mean, I just fell in love with him. I loved him because he really brought a sense of humor to that role. Uh. And he's also you know, very believable as a you know, as a scientist, as a doctor, and and he's actually a family man. He's married to his husband, and he has twins and kids and that are growing up. So
he really identified a lot with the character. And he said the one thing that he didn't understand was why, you know, he left, Like, like, how could someone leave their kid like that? But I mean it happens. It happens all the time. You know, we all know that people cheat, people go out and then they come back. And you know, I wanted I mean, I don't want to ruin the ending of the movie, so I won't, but you know, I wanted it to be helpful and inspiring and and I hope that you know, like straight
people will see it. I hope that uh sis, heteronormative whatever you know you call people see it because it is for a mainstream audience, know, right, And we wanted to you know, have that sense that, you know, these topics, although they are serious and important, you know, we touched
them on a light note. And there's humor throughout. I think every scene has at least one you know, laugh out loud joke in it, and we want people to enjoy it as entertainment and maybe you get something out of it or you know, experiences with people that they might not know in real life, you know.
And I wanted to thank you, by the way, because this touches on some really important subjects, and it grapples with some important stuff, and it includes children, you know, and our interactions with children, and it's not tragedy, poorant. Thank you. I was going to say that, not thank you for not doing that, thank you for not taking it there, because that is what happens when we're and directed about by people who don't know us. You know.
Nothing made me more angry. I'm just gonna say this every time we talk about a film than when Brendan Fraser stood up and told us that the Whale was not a queer story, it was a universal story. No, honey, no, it wasn't. And the fact that you don't know that is the problem, and that's why we need to tell our own stories. And it resonates in such a different way because you know, if you're gonna throw some camp in there, and you did, it's got to ring true. Though.
It's got to be like yep, I know them, and yep, that would happen. And when he went and you're paea, that perfect, perfect, and I'm like, yes, that would have happened.
Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely, Well thank you for saying that. I mean that I consider that a huge compliment. So yeah, I mean, it was just the people involved. It's just it's a matter of the people involved in the talent you choose, you know, and and whether they can bring something. Not that straight people can't play gay characters. I don't think that's true, but I think that in certain films.
I think it is important for authentic representation. And I think certainly, I mean the trans experience, Like we don't know enough about that as a society, you know, for I think assist gender person to play a trans person at this time and our lives, I mean, we still need to learn and be educated, you know, and maybe one day we'll get there. But I don't think we're there right now at all.
And thank you for saying that, right because I agree with you.
Yeah, yeah, I mean absolutely. I mean I don't think, you know, like a straight person should be playing like Harvey Milk or you know, James Baldwin either. But I mean, you know, so I think, you know, there's more flexibility with gay roles. And yeah, but it's it's still it's you know, it's art, it's well.
But minimally, minimally, someone with you know, some editorial control or some directorial control, you know, needs to be of the family we're talking about, because just that presence and again not just the person getting coffee, but somebody who can say, wait a minute, that that doesn't ring true, you know, it just doesn't. I remember we we went to a what is it called when it's a play, it's not a screener, oh, a preview.
You know.
It was very much asking for feedback, and it was by invitation, you know, an honor to be there, and we love the actress. It was a one woman show. One anyway I could tell a man wrote it, and and that was my feedback. A woman would not have focused where this went. A woman would not have said these things. And the director went, that's really important. And you know the writer because a man wrote it, you know, and historian and good storyteller, but you needed some collaboration there.
And you know, I see that time and time again, and especially if you're going to touch on our stories, because they do need to be told, absolutely, but we've got to we have to be involved in the telling. Alexandra did a gorgeous job. She really did.
I mean, I don't want to say I'm so proud of her, but I am. I'm so pleased with just her performance. And you know, I was so nervous asking this role because I mean it was a little bit controversial at first because it was like, well, why does she have to be Catholic? And you know all this, But then Alexander like when she read the script, she you know, and she she understood it, and I mean, she brought such great ideas to the story to help drive the story home, and and like it was her idea.
I don't know if you remember the moment where Isabelle gives her the cross back, I do, that was her idea that wasn't in the original scripts. And she was like, what if she gives me like the cross back at the end of the scene, and it's like, you know, it's like she kind of you know, and I thought that was such a great thing, and I was like, yes, but yeah, yeah, she was great and she looks great.
I mean, and it's just like she just goes through so many journeys and arcs, and she's just so vulnerable and and she just you know, let us, let us capture it so well.
You know. And one of the things that she portrays so brilliantly is the resilience of our in our community and you know, when there's no one else to turn to, going back to the elders, going back to the you know, the moms. I was going to say that, Yeah, and Jennifer Bobby is playing Ruthie and feeding her and there's a ham and potatoes and cake and cupcakes and by the way, I have what I left over, Parmesan.
I love that scene. That's one of my favorite scenes in Shandy Moore is the other the transit, who is a huge She lives in la but she's a huge as activist and she works. She's an ambassador for Elizabeth Taylor Foundation or for AIDS activism and she's amazing, just an amazing soul. And I'm so happy that we premiered in La so she was able to attend the world premiere. But we just had so much fun that day shooting.
It's one of my favorite scenes when she sings her the you know, the Gospel hymn and she's like, you got church right here, And I love that because it's true.
You know, I wrote that down. I wrote that quote down. Yeah, you've got church right here.
Yeah. We don't have to go to a building, a cold, empty building where no one welcomes us. You want to get that type of nourishment, you know, we go where we're welcome and where we're loved, because that's what it's all about. It's about love and welcoming.
Well, that's what, you know, going back to that feeling of authenticity from us telling our own stories because of the fact that you know, this was not just about the bad things that happen to the queer and trans characters, which would be the story might be the story in other hands, I feel like this film was really about the vital need that we have as queer and trans people for chosen family, because it's the chosen family that
you know has your back. And yes, you know we might lose a job, lose an apartment, but that, yeah, that happens. But we have community and we have chosen family there to like catch us and pick us up and help us get back on our feet. And that's the that's the real meat of it. I think you know that we we have each other's back. We are a community. It's not just about the things that happened to us.
It's about the us, yes, regarding us, regarding.
Us, regarding us, and I loved it and holding us in regard was the way I took that title as well, like, Okay, this works a couple of ways, and I love that. Yeah, I love it. You know, there was even that moment where your character says, I you know, I know where I went wrong, and your character never does leaven. But it's that it's that day you asked me to dance, and he says, and you said, not in front of all the straight people. That's real. Yeah, it's real.
I mean that happened to me, you know, with my with my partner ten years. I mean those Yeah, it's like you feel the shame as you know, as out
and proud as you are. Sometimes you get into a situation and all of a sudden you're back in the closet like and and you know, I mean I don't know, like I I guess because of the way I appear or the way I look, you know, and I'm around certain people, you know, and I hear things comments people say about trans people, about women, about you know, and because they think, oh, I'm just one of the guys, even though definitely not. You know, Uh, It's just I'm disgusted.
I'm just I can't believe what comes out of people's mouths sometimes when they think they're around you know, friendly company.
Oh yeah, it's outrageous, it is. And you know, I get it sometimes when you know, I'm in an all white space and racism rais its head and I'm I was just like, come on now.
Really, yeah, it's like we don't have time for this anymore. It's like we got to get our act together, you know, When are we going to learn?
When are we going to learn? Indeed, sometimes fish can Fly? Where did that theme come from? Who introduced the idea?
That's also connected from the short film Sometimes Fish Can Fly? And I just thought, you know, some people kind of parallel it like Jesus, like the Jesus fish. I mean, that's you know, open to interpretation. But I just thought, sometimes, you know, there are we have well what do you think it means? What I mean?
What well? I mean there are flying fish that you know, just jump really high and whatever. Like, there are that we have a brewery called flying fish. Yes, that, you know put me on the spot. The idea, you know, the idea that you know, in nature, everything doesn't operate exactly the way. You know, we want it to be so binary. We want it to be so clear. You know, fish swim, that's all they do. But that's not you know,
that's not exactly how it works. And that's what I feel like it points to that, you know, that idea if you just kind of open your mind a little bit and understand we're real because that's you know, I say time and time again, that's our real fight, you know, as trans people. That is the fight is that we exist. We need to stop arguing about the fact that we exist. Regardless of what your religion might say about me. I'm right here, you know, existing, and I'm going to be
transing through this entire administration. Whatever the fuck happens like that's going that's you know, I'm not going back, So it's going to be what it is. And that's why these stories become that much more important, you know, as we have an entire party legislating against our existence and the idea of us and talking about us certainly always without us, you know, and even in the times when we're allowed into their chambers to speak, most of them
don't show up. The other ones sit on their phones, and then they vote the way they were going to vote anyway. It's it is dehumanizing, and that's exactly what
it's designed to be. So you know, when a movie comes along and shows our humanity, you know, shows that in the face of some you know, something really hard, losing one's job because of who you are, and of course everything that goes along with that, right, and still we are resilient, and still we go back to the people who have nurtured us, and we find our strength again, and we find our faith again, you know, and even in the shit that was going on with her, like Okay,
you need a babysitter, I need something to do, and I love this kid. I love the way that story worked, you know, in some way. She was the magical element, but not what you're not right to the degree, but exactly, but we often are. That's why some cultures celebrate us.
Yeah, of course, I mean you are magical creatures. And we wanted to make sure that it was like a white savior movie and that that the kid didn't save Veronica. You know that that you know, she saved you know, her faith saved her. She saved her, so you know itself. And I think we accomplished that hopefully.
Oh definitely.
We were very aware of that though because of past you know, films that have been popular.
Right.
But yeah, I love that explanation of the fish. That's that's exactly Okay, good, well done.
Gold Star, Thank you, Hudson. Paul was brilliant. Yeah, however, this child winds up identifying there was some had to be some brilliant direction involved. There had to be some you know, because I felt it. Yeah, I felt that child's responses and you know the tension between mother and child.
I felt that, you know, when we see when when Isabelle innocently pulls out the picture and Mom knows because Mom's been having this argument with her child, that this child just depicted themselves as female in their drawing, and it was that look of disgust, like you keep doing this to us, And wow, wow, this kid was good and captured so much of the fear of the dread of the I have to stop now. I lived that.
Mm hmmm, I lived it. You know. Puberty was that moment where it's like you got to put the ship away now, you got to stop because you know the violence is only going to escalate. It's for your safety that you stopped this girl now.
And I appreciate you saying that. Yeah, Hudson Paul is an amazing actor and I'm sure he identifies as a cist gender male and uh, and he's just I'm sure he has an amazing acting career ahead of him. He's done a lot of TV uh as well. I think he just had a guest starring role in Blue Bloods where he plays a totally different character. He's like a shooter or something. But so he's he's quite ana million.
But I Alabama, I was so you know, I was so worried about I was so nervous about casting this role. And we cast I mean, we auditioned all kinds of different kids, non binary cis and uh, just I mean Kyle, I call him Kyle, but Hudson's tape just blew me away, and we when we are met him in person. And then he auditioned with his older brother, Jacob Moran, who played Man. I knew they had just, you know, the family resemblance, especially with Abigail Hawk, who plays Constance, the mother.
We all kind of wanted. I wanted them to be sort of like an all American you know, quote unquote family. The other families in the movie are you know, all very different, you know looking, so I thought, let's get them sort of like you know, and and it works out and and just Kyle brings such a sensitivity to the role. And I mean, of course, you know, we we worked with him. And the parents were amazing too, because when you're cast a kid, you're also casting the parents.
And he comes from a family of artists and his older brother as a filmmaker.
Oh so they get it.
So they get it. Yeah, they really got it. I was really nervous because we had actually a couple of kids who backed out of the callback because the parents actually read the scripts okay in the cereal and they were like, oh, I don't think so this is.
Not for us, not my baby.
I get it. And you know, there's no sense in trying to persuade them.
Not at all, not at all, because because you would not have had the quality you had here. This was a young actor fully committed to the role. Yeah. Whoever did the you know, gave those prompts and worked with this child got it. They got it. And I felt it, you know, I just I was right there with Kyle and unto you know, I had an older brother who
encouraged me to suicide. I had that older brother. So it was like, oh my god, like, how did you so many of these moments that were like you know, uh real.
I love that you saw Mark, that you saw yourself as Alabama and like but even like older gay men have said, you know, I saw myself with Alabama, you know, and right, I mean, we don't put a label on Alabama. Like you know, they could grow up to be you know, maybe gay or trans or or whatever.
You know, but that's important.
To leave it open. And I don't know, like I love that at the end because you don't really know what happens to that family they disappear. But and Isabelle at the end of the letter, you know, she says, you know, I always pray for you and your family Alabama.
Do the prayers work? And you know that always makes me cheer up because it's like we as the audience, don't know off the prayers work, but we have hopefully, we have faith that they do work, and hopefully Alabama will be safe, you know, and and be the person that they're you know, meant to be. So we hope that that happens for Alabama.
Yeah, but that struggle is captured, that struggle of you know, who we're told we are and and needing to obey, you know, in some way, and that absolute feeling of I'm betraying my family by existing, just by existing in the way that I do, and it incorrectly human, right that that that right there, and it was portrayed with sensitivity and brilliant and just the interaction of the adults with the kids, because that's the reality of how we
do interact with children. Many of us are parents, some of the best parents I've ever fucking met, and you know, we do connect with children in reali and loving ways. And you know that that that pedophile moniker that that they like to chase us with while they're the ones actually doing that has always been sickening, and this does a great job of showing the ways that you know, kids thrive with queer and transparents. They do, they do.
And I saw that, you know, that was portrayed. It was it was obvious, and it was also obvious what does happen, you know, among religious people. I thought it was interesting actually that it was a Catholic mother and not an Evangelical mother for us, right, because that's so common there, because I know Catholics who you know, kind of hold on to some of that but are very
transient and queer affirming. So, you know, because the people I once had a therap one of my therapists say, you Catholics think religion is a cafeteria and you can justify almost anything. You just like, you know, you're walking down You're like, you know, have some of this, don't have some of that? You know, of course I'm going to be on the pill, but I'm not going to
tell anyone like that kind of thing. And that was the first time anyone had ever phrased it like that to me, that like some of us actually grapple with real human issues and really try to come to this place of what love is supposed to be and what you know, love thy neighbor is supposed to be. And this was a queer ordained minister who did a lot of teaching, and I just it pulled me up short and I went, you know that way because I was busy at the cafeteria.
Yeah, that's an interesting thought. I mean, you know, being in Catholic school for thirteen years, I felt so much love from so many nuns, you know, growing up, and I had some of the best teachers I've ever had with Catholic nuns. I'll just I'll never forget sistered On in the sixth grade. She was she taught math and religion, and I learned so much. We learned how to read the Bible, like she said, fundamentally, never read the Bible. Fundamentally,
it's the worst way to read the Bible. And he said, you read it critically, you know, And that's yes, although I do remember we were learning about the ten Commandments and the sins, and I just try to remember foremost sexuality. Mortals said, I'll never hear the big bubble curse of beautiful handwriting that you know, cracks me up to this day. But so it's a fact. But you know, it's it's like you you take what you know. I mean, I guess I'm a cafeteria Catholic too, but you know, you
take what you want, what works for you. But yeah, there's so much love and I don't know one one person did say, oh, you're just passion Catholics in this movie, and they were rather upset, but I do. I wanted to, especially with Abigail Hawk's character, the character of Constance, because I guess she could be perceived as a villain. But I the only note that I gave her was that she loves her kids. You know, she loves her kids
and she does everything because she loves them. And you know, even if she acts out of fear or ignorance, it's because she loves right. And I wanted that to be clear. There's love there, yeah, because those you know, I mean, that comes from personal history, you know, of Jennifer and me, and we wanted to make sure that that was captured. So because you know, we know that that your parents love you no matter what they do, and it's important they do their best.
They do their best. I you know, that's the place I try to get folks. You know, they did their best. Doesn't mean they did it good, but they did their best. You know. That's and nobody sets out to be a shitty parent or a hateful one, but it happens. There were there were just so many themes. I'm not gonna you know, ruin the end, but I loved. I loved the way it ended, the things that resolved and the things that didn't. There was you know, triumph in the end.
Some things that you know, we're left there, we don't because we don't know, you know, which is what a film is, right a moment in time. Everything doesn't always resolve, but we tell a story, and this story was one of resilience. And you know, going back to that idea, it's always on the table. That is true, not just
of queer and trans people. You know, I know plenty of misfits in this world, plenty of folks who struggle with mental health, for whom it's also like, you know, it's not that I want to die, but I need a lot of this shit to end and I'm working on it. But yeah, always on the table, and that's real, you know, it's it's just a real part of the existence of somebody who's had a lot of trauma and seen a lot of stuff, and for whom things have not always gone well, you know. So I followed it.
I followed the theme. I thought it was brilliant, and again it this. I saw our people. I saw the people I know and and interact with every day of represented. We're not perfect, God knows, but the love that we do share, and I think sometimes better than anyone comes through, comes through.
Brava, thank you so much that that means a lot to me. So I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Very much, very much. How do folks access this film?
Good questions? It is now available for pre order on Apple TV and iTunes.
Nice.
You don't have to have a subscription to order it. It's twelve ninety nine, And even if you do have a subscription, you still have to order. It's twelve ninety it's available. Yeah, that's the pre order, and then on January twenty eighth you'll be able to enjoy it and
watch it in the comfort of your own home. And on January twenty eighth, it will also be released on Amazon Prime and YouTube TV, where you can either rent or buy it, and yeah, and we're hoping that, you know, we're still looking for an exclusive deal somewhere, but yeah, it'll be there for three months and then it'll go to Avon, which it'll be on two B and places like that, you know, Sling TV and places like that.
So I hope just you know, we reach as many people as we can with this, with this movie and with this message, and I think that people will really enjoy it. We played in New York for a week at Cinema Village in the East Village, and the audience responses have been amazing. We've gotten a few reviews and
they've all been excellent. Uh, so I'm really excited. The screenplay we it was just I don't know who submitted us, but we just uh, they want us to be in the permanent core collection of the Library, the Motion Picture Academy of Arts and Sciences, a little part of cinema history. So that's exciting. Yeah, beautiful. So things are going, well.
What else are you doing, dude? What's what's on your horizon?
Oh? What else am I doing? Lots of things? Well, we got a couple of projects in development. Uh, Jennifer and I wrote a series based on her character Aunt Barbara, called Time Out with Anne Barbara, and it's a it's an adult comedy inside children's programming. It's very fun. So we're looking for a home for that. I have a feature film about the last days of the famed composer Pieter Tchaikowsky, which I don't know if you know much about his life, but he was a big gay man.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, I knew that part. Yeah, it's very it's a it's a beautiful, fascinating psychological thriller from the point of view of his nephew who's also gay and a morphine at it. And it's it's very like Darren Aronofski esque picture.
So I'm old.
It really Yeah, it's it's exciting. And I have a choreographer attached upon to Slidberg, who as a Swedish choreographer who lives in Paris, and he did this thing at the Joyce. I don't know if you go to a lot of dance, but he did this piece.
Of choreographer choreographer.
Oh, he did this piece of the Joyce called uh the Invention of rabbits or but it was about the AIDS epidemic and it just it like really like broke my heart. And I thought it I didn't know what it was about because I didn't read it, and I was just kind of using my imagination, and I thought it was like about addiction because I had these blue balloons and then they became black and they rose them up and then it weighed them down. So I said, oh,
it's like addiction. But it was actually about you know, disease, the AIDS crisis, and and it was just I have never seen dancing like that, and uh, it just I was like, oh my gosh. And I just I'd never wrote a screenplay so fast before. I just got like such such inspiration. But that's you know, that's the beauty of art, right.
And you you you dance the way that I do, Like, don't read the program, take it as it is and see what you get from it.
Yeah. I love that. I mean, I don't go to dance very often, but my friend invited me and we were in like the first row, so it was kind of neat. Yeah, yeah, I love it. But yeah, you take what you get from it, you know. That's what I don't like to read critics reviews before I see movies or plays either. I just like to go with you know, an open mind, an open part, right.
Because you don't want to say looking for things and being disappointed if what you thought it is it isn't And yeah, exactly.
Yeah, we've refused to interviews where the work was bad, just so you know where it's like, I can't find the words and I won't trash a fellow queer publicly, and I'm not going to do that, but it's just like this needs some help. This film does not, so you know, I was thrilled to talk about it. You know, as we were watching it last night, I'm just like, Okay, you know, it resonates it so the characters feel real to me. This is queer storytelling, trans storytelling at its best,
and this is what is possible. And I hope it's just the first of many. I hope, you know. That's one of the things I hope, I'm an eternal optimist comes out of this ugly period. Is more of the ability for us to tell our own stories and portray our own characters, yes, and community members, and tell the stories that matter. And you hit so many places that were important to see that we're important to give voice too. Like I said, you know, the kids interacting with the
adults without preaching. He didn't preach.
Mm hmm, I hope not. Yeah, well, thank you so much. I mean, I know like that that you know, like, oh, you know, a woman who's trans is a Catholic seems to gets fired from her job, and then you know, it sounds very heavy handed. I know, I'm preachy, but it's yeah, it's not at all actually, And and that's one of the I think the strengths of the film is that, you know, it's it's very approachable and enjoyable and uh, you know, you can be laughing and you
know a lot of people crying. I was kind of surprised.
But well, why did that surprise you?
I don't know, because I guess because you know, I want, you know, you want people to feel a certain way or you want to move people. And then it always sort of I'm always kind of surprised when when people say what they take took away.
They like it, they really like they like it in.
The audience in the back. It's hard for me to watch, you know, in front of all with an audience. Oh I'm sure, yeah, it's really because I see, like everything that's wrong, or I'm like, well we can you know, redo that.
So you know, eventually you just got to let the baby be born.
You just got to let it go. And it is what it is.
Yeah, there wasn't a part where I felt like, well, this could go quicker. I didn't have that moment. I really didn't. And you know, I fell in love with a lot of the characters. And I have heard similar arguments, like the principal, you know, was that heavy handed. I've had that discussion with somebody explaining you know, my existence to me, and it can be that insulting and clear. That's a part of our lives. Yeah, and sometimes we don't even see it so much because we're so used to it.
Yeah, and that that was a conversation we had with I mean, she's that's a brilliant actress, Katherine Curton. She's you know, it's been on Orange is the New Black and Homeland.
That's where I recognized her from Orange.
Yeah, she's a brilliant actress. And she's also in the Saturday Night Night Live movie just came out, And we had that conversation and I'm like, well, should she be like a little bit compassionate and we were like, no, let's just make her a total you know, doesn't care. This is just like I'm sick of you. I never liked you, and we're done, you know, because that happens, you know, And yeah.
There was you know, I had this moment and this is one of the reasons I rewatched it because I in my initial watch I thought it was never clear why she got fired, Like how did this blow up? How did you know who she is as a trans woman come about? You know? Then I kind of started to feel like the neighbor had something to do with it, or at least the neighbor caught on. And in watching it the second time, I really it doesn't matter it Actually that is, it does not matter to the story.
The point is it can happen, and you know, as good as we might be at what we do and as much as we may thrive, it can be taken away like that, you know, like, oh, dumb, stupid me. I worked for a Catholic school.
And that's interesting that you said that, because I thought I was like, we need to be more specific about how she's out it, or you know, how like who tells honor who that she can fide in someone or is it a disgruntled parent, And Jennifer kept saying, it doesn't matter, it's not germane to the story, it's not about that, because she's absolutely right, then people will make it about that. Yeah, and so that's very good.
Yeah, yeah, we did not need a specific villain there. We didn't need.
That again exactly because then it would be about that and that person, and right, we don't want to put the focus.
One, right, And so what it does is, you know, it shows the aftermath. It shows that these things are possible. You know, our lives can be upended and fully beyond our control and it has happened, and you know that is too often possible. We're you know, we don't necessarily
get the benefit of a doubt. So again, it's storytelling, but it doesn't devolve into today, it doesn't devolve into you know, this like beating drama of you've got to be nicer to trans people because you probably won't be like and we know it, and so but we keep going.
I mean, there are sadly a lot of tragic stories, you know about trans people and queer people, and and those stories are important too and told. But yeah, we wanted we wanted to keep it. We wanted to end on a hopeful note, you know, and and just have a be real life. And I mean, the my favorite experience.
The thing with this All experience is I met so many brilliant, amazing trans women through this experience, like Martine roth Black, Marcy Bauers, you know, uh, and so many people who ended up not contributing to the film, but like I just learning about them. And they're I mean, you know, no one's alone without obviously, you know, and they're assholes in there every every community.
I could introduce you to several.
Yeah, they're just so brilliant and kind and just you know, they think outside the box and it's just like they have ideas and I'm like, let's listen, you know, because because if you're forced to live in like a different way than other people, then obviously you have to think smarter, you know, and you have to think differently, and maybe we can learn like as a as a mass society
from these people, you know, And do you thanks? Because yeah, you know, I mean you're forced to be resourceful, you have to be resilient, you have no choice, right.
Kind of part kind of and you know that's not always true, and we do have young people who have had it easier. You know, this this particular last ten years or so has not been so easy, but levels of acceptance have been different. So we've been able to raise some brats, you know, referencing again American teenager, like there's a couple of kids. Yeah, there's there's a transcript with enormous privilege who was never you know, she's heard the stories, but that's not her life at all. You know,
that's not her life at all. Yeah, she goes to this wonderful liberal school in California where you know, there's two hundred kids in the GSA. Everybody's queer.
Yeah, I mean I think about the people. I mean I was born in eighty three, but I think about the people who came before me, you know, the queer men and women and trans people that just broke down so much and suffered so much and thought, you know, and it's just like, we wouldn't be where we were without the people came before us.
And then, you know what, thank you for that, because that was the other thing I wanted to mention that for many of us, our lives are intergenerational. We don't just live amongst people who are our age. You know, I work with a lot of younger people that there have been children in my life for my whole life, and I turned to the elders often. You know, some of my best friends are in their seventies, so we have such a mix of folks. And that's captured too that.
You know, Yeah, thank you for saying that. I mean, I didn't even think of that, but I guess it's true. I mean, I guess as an actor and someone from the theater and film, you're it's like you become a family whenever you're in a play. And one of my best friends is a ninety three year old you know, Jewish woman and grandma, and she's one of my best friends.
I talk to her every day. And and then I you know, I'm friends with kids and people in their twenties, and and I get, yeah, I love that, and I like that the gay couple, you know, like I'm a little younger and he's a little older. And but that's very common, you know, a community, and it's not like a thing that like people talk they're like, oh, he's so much older than you. I remember a family member who saw the movie was like Oh, he's an older man.
And I didn't even think of it, you know, I was like, oh, I guess he.
Is right, but yeah, it's makes perfect time. Again, how many couples do we know? I'm I'm older than you.
Yeah, it happens, and I think, I mean, she's not going to get mad at me saying this because she said this before. But like Jennifer and I are from different you know, generations, and I think that works as a writing team, because that doesn't happen.
You know, I imagine Jennifer and I are closer in age.
Jennifer's jen X. She's to me, I don't know something.
I just turned fifty nine.
So just for reference, Oh, happy birthday.
Well, thank you made it this far, made it this far. I want to thank you so much for your time. Please let us know what's happening and and when you do more because we would love to talk to you again.
This was a pleasure. Thank you so much. I mean, thank you for watching the film and you know this extensive interview. It doesn't happen, so we're officially fan.
That's what we do. And thank you so much for creating this film.
Thank you.
It's I think it's more important than you realize yet I do, and I was an honor to watch it. Thank you so much, my pleasure, David Beck for your time and your skill and this beautiful film. And please send our love to Jennifer because wow, the two of you really created something amazing.
Definitely will Yeah, I know she's very.
Sad for not being here, so I would love to meet her someday.
I'm sure you will. I'm sure you will.
I am Martha Madrid and I am Charles Tyson Jr. And you've been listening to Full Circle the podcast, Thank you so much.
Full Circle is a Never Scurred Productions podcast posted by Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal, produced and edited by Never Scurd Executive Produced by Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal. Our theme in music is by the jingle Marys.
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