Hello and welcome to the From the Spirit World podcast, a legendary Avatar The Last Airbender and the Legend of Korra podcast for OverlyAnimated.com. This is the FTSW rewatch, the definitive Avatar fans rewatch from the biggest Avatar fans you know. We'll be reflecting on Avatar and Core almost 20 years later after being huge fans of the shows when they originally aired. I am your host, Dylan, and today I'm joined by Delaney. Hey, y'all. And Ben. Hey, everyone. We are on book two of the Avatar.
rewatch going through three episodes at a time. Today we have reached 13 to 15 of book two, The Drill, City of Walls and Secrets, and Tales of the Tales of Ba Sing Se. Three pretty huge hitters here, so very exciting getting into these episodes. We might be, I'll get to this soon, but we might be in the best stretch run of Avatar. Of the entire show, starting with this podcast. Honestly, last time was good, too.
some exciting ones to get into here. You can search for From the Spirit World or Overly Animated anywhere to subscribe to either feed or to our dedicated FTSW rewatch feed to get all of these podcasts. We're on video. Go to youtube.com slash overlyanimated to watch the video version of this, but it's just fine if you're listening on audio as well.
We will be in full spoiler territory for all of Avatar and Korra throughout this rewatch podcast, regardless what episodes are being discussed. Send us your questions and comments to read on the upcoming podcast, podcast at overlyanimated.com. And if you're listening to this in the present, in the future, who cares?
But these are going to the last few for book two will be staggered a little bit. So don't expect them weekly. We're going to get to them when we get to them. And I'll try to finish out book two. That's kind of what's going on here. Look, Ladybug's back. There's a lot going on. There's a lot going on. But check out the previous book, Two Wins Weed, a great one with Beatrice's last time. That was a pretty long one. And now we are...
Going to get into some exciting episodes. Happy to have Ben on for the first time. Ben is an original. He's on the Netflix rewatch Avatar, but not real Avatar podcast. We did. So he's been on recently, but Ben was original from the spirit. Worlder, I believe. I don't exactly remember when you came in, Ben, but why don't you give us your history with Avatar, your history with the fandom, the podcast, all that good stuff.
uh yeah so i started watching the show i want to say it was like midway through season one nice um so it's not something i discovered right away But, and I liked season one, but it was really season two where it started to, you know, kind of take roots like, oh, this is like something, you know, amazing. But yeah, I did join the From the Spirit World podcast. I think I took part. You did. It was like Survivor. I remember it was like Dung Bufeng Survivor.
This was not a podcast. It was not on a podcast, but that is a good fandom memory. I hosted a... I've been into Survivor since I was, and I'm still watching Survivor every week. That's how long Survivor's been on. But even in Avatar days, we had flash chat on Donglufeng. It was like our chat room where we all talked. And then in there, I hosted a Survivor.
contest. People were participants and went through, I don't know if they're Avatar challenges or what, but that was exciting. I didn't remember you were a contestant, Ben. And that was your first thing coming into Donggu Feng? It was. And then I guess just by doing that, like I got invited onto the podcast and then, you know, there we go. So I'm looking for what your first podcast is right now.
it it was during the final stretch of season three episodes i want to say maybe it was like yeah which one do you think oh my gosh well i i think it was the the sun Oh gosh. Okay, now my fandom's being bad right now. We haven't gotten to book three yet. Are you talking about the one where Zuko and Aang and they go and...
The firebending master. According to my search, your first one was the Southern Raiders. So yeah, three to the 16 of season three. Oh, okay. I knew it was in that last stretch of episodes. Yeah, that's pretty late. july 18 2008 though so ben you know ben was was here very early on children Great. Now I feel old. That's why my picture is Iroh, because I am the elder statesman. Is Iroh your favorite character? Is that why you wanted Iroh to be your picture?
Yeah, he is. I, you know, I'm nowhere near Iroh old, obviously, but I do relate to him the most, honestly. You know, just just like. Just the way he kind of goes through life. He seeks peace, but at the same time, he's not afraid to mix it up when he needs to. Nice. Any, any introductory information we should know. What do you ship? What's your bending element? You know, et cetera. Also, if it's Zatara, we're going to kick you out. No, no. Katang all the way.
That's good. I do associate... Yes, yes. I do associate probably with fire the most, though. Nice. You know, it's... you know the element of life you know it can be a destructive force but you know it's also so much more than that you know like they said in the firebending masters it's energy it's life it's you know And I think that's just a reflection of who I am. So cool. I see you were on our Katang special podcast 49. So that checks out. I'm not lying. I'm not lying.
Just from my memory, Ben's best podcast moment, in my opinion, was we did a commentary track for the dreaded The Last Airbender movie. That doesn't exist. Oh, yes. And I just remember Ben came in with full of zingers and was just firing them off the entire commentary track. It was very funny. You know, you watch a lot of Mystery Science Theater 3000. It does something to you. It does. It does. And that's actually something me and my wife do.
you know even now like you know something we've maybe watched like 10 times but we just get the urge to watch it again you know instead of like being quiet and really serious about watching it we'll kind of point out all the stuff we find funny even if it's something we love so nice If you were to ever feel the need to revisit the M. Night Avatar movie, I would recommend firing up our commentary track. It still should be up there on the From the Spurwald feed.
um okay let's good stuff uh from ben oh yeah how about this question before we start getting into the the episodes is is this is bossing say the bossing say arc the peak run of avatar peak avatar top episodes uh delaney what do you think so it's really hard for me to say as so this is i'm really glad i'm doing this rewatch because
book two is probably what i've watched the least like from when i watched it originally and then um i remember book three a lot and i really really like book three that's like my favorite part of the show um i mean when you talk about like what's going on though i think this probably is we can check in on me also as we go because we're really in the beginning here like this is really where it starts but you know it's really
i mean it's kicking in like i mean we in these three episodes we um we get judy um we begin the you know we're starting to brainwash brainwash jet we um you know we meet long fang and we're getting like that intro into like there is no war like we're not doing this so that's It's really interesting. And we're also getting this other side of Toph, too, because she knows what it's like to be in the city and this kind of two-facedness.
so we'll check i mean i really like book three like i just love the beginning of book three where they're like kind of just like exploring the fire nation so i don't know it's hard Yeah, good stuff. I think I like that you are a book three stan because I think that's an underrepresented opinion on From the Spirit World and Avatar fans in general love book three. And I think in the fandom in general, people are like, oh, book three. And I'm like, I love book three. It's my favorite.
talk about that when we get to book three uh original fandom there's some of that attitude to book three just to preview the discussion i think nowadays book three might be considered the best season by most people so i i think that'll be interesting if people weren't there originally why was book three
slightly less beloved. That's a preview of when we get to book three and three watching. What do you think, Ben, though? Is Ba Sing Seark your favorite part of Avatar? For me, the series is this... The series kind of goes through like these peaks and valleys. And I don't want valleys to sound bad because I think I said it before a long time ago on one of our podcasts.
A lot of us kind of consider episodes like The Great Divide to be the worst or among the worst. But I would much rather watch The Great Divide than a lot of the junk on... television today you know sure sure a lot of other shows yeah average episode but but so when i say peaks and valleys i just mean like the show kind of goes with these like you know some decent good episodes and then there's like these
you know two three four episode arcs where it's like whoa you know and it goes big and i feel like this is one of those is this you know like the drill and then you know um Oh my gosh. Cities of walls and secrets, you know, that stretch of episodes, I think is one of the peaks of avatar for me. One of the peaks. Okay. We kind of start and we don't stop. It's just like all this stuff happens. I think in original... Go ahead, Ben.
No, so I was just, I think Delaney makes a good point that once we get to Ba Sing Se in book two, it really doesn't stop, you know? You could say maybe, and I know we're not talking about it on this episode, but like Appa's Lost Days, maybe it teeters down just a little bit. But again, next episode, we just go right back up. This whole stretch in Ba Sing Se is definitely one of the peaks of Avatar. I think that's a safe answer. I think original FTSW days I considered.
Ba Sing Se to be peak Avatar. So that's kind of why I bring this up. Will that hold true? You know, I think I got to finish the rewatch. So far, so good. But... uh definitely like back in the day for me this was it this was uh the high point of the storytelling of avatar i will say
I definitely like originally didn't like Appa's Lost Days as much as other episodes. And I was not as high on Tales of Ba Sing Se as other people. So those are like two back to back episodes within the Ba Sing Se arc. But certainly at least at the very least Tales has its high points.
But just judging by these three, I mean, The Drill, City, Wells and Secrets, a lot of good stuff. I would include the previous episode, Serpent's Pass, as well, which if you listened to last podcast, I really loved that one rewatching. So I am hoping this will hold up. That being said, I will say, I think I, you know, a rewind from book one. I think I appreciated.
Book One of Avatar even more than originally. It is interesting, though, because also Ba Sing Se is the only time in, I believe, in all of Avatar we stay in one place for more than three episodes. And yeah, not just three episodes. It's whatever, seven, whatever it is. So this is they really dig in and.
City of Walls and Secrets and Into Tales is carrying a lot of that weight. So I think it'll be interesting to get into those. But let's talk about the three episodes here. I know we had a little bit of an awkward divide with Serpent's Pass and the drill, but we're getting to the drill here. Written by Mike and Brian, directed by...
John Color of Volpe, City of Walls and Secrets, written by Tim Hedrick, directed by Lauren McMullen. Tales of Ba Sing Se, written by a lot of people, many of whom were crew members that were not the writers, so they kind of got to... like various like production, very people got to kind of write the shorts directed by Ethan Spaulding. Delaney, what was it like for you rewatching these three episodes?
um i really enjoyed them so i sat down and i watched all three of them like back to back just me and my wife just watching them um really liked the drill um the drill is one of those episodes that i remembered really well uh when the sludge started i was like oh i remember the sludge now like oh we're gonna blow it up and uh and i remember like i had forgotten about the
I guess he's the general or whatever. And he's like, we don't need your help. Like, okay. I just, I really liked the drill. It's a good episode. And then Tanya's just always amused by Momo's antics. and then um for cities and walls of secrets this was i mean it's well i guess also we have um i think it's in the drill yeah in the drill we also now i'm getting confused no trying to remember Tell me what it is. Tell me what it is. We have the Jet and Zuko and Iroh.
Iroh warms up his tea. Yeah. Both in the drill and into city of all the secrets. Yeah. So like they're both happening and you know, he warms up his tea and it's even, I was like, Zuko's right. Like you're dumb. Why did you do that? Like, Oh my God, Iroh. Like that was pretty. stupid and then and of course like and also i'm like oh jet and my wife knows i don't like jet so she's just like laughing at me the whole time and since you don't like jet are you happy
When Jed is brainwashed at the end of. So I did say that. Tanya was like, that's what he gets. And I was like, okay, I feel bad for him. But like what happens is worse. And she's like, really? And I'm like, yes, you don't remember, but we're going to watch. And it's pretty bad. And I'm like, yeah, he gets brainwashed. That sucks. If he would have, like, calmed down for two minutes, it would have been okay.
we enjoyed it's really it's really true if he's even a second like a literally a second of like it would have been fine and then uh Zuko's date we loved that and it was really funny my wife was like what's his problem like is it just because he's like
fire nation i was like yes that's like the crux of his identity problem and she's like well it's no big deal they can still date and i was like you're ridiculous like it was like seriously so dumb my wife loves iroh so you know we're having we're having a good time And Tales of Ba Sing Se is always fun. I had forgotten about a couple of them, so I was like, all right, this happens. I think I remember I didn't really like the Katara and Toph one originally as much, because I'm like, ugh.
But I like, it's good. It's a good one. Like Katara and Toph, it's really cute. Especially because they have such a like... their relationship can be contentious at times so it's nice seeing them hang out and do like fun stuff and it's really you know and of course you know toff's blind and she's like i don't care what i look like it's like what you do because like you don't you obviously don't want people to be like make fun of you and stuff so it was really sweet
And also Toph, like, just zingers with the blind jokes. All three episodes. Like, it's constant. Like, they're great. Love Toph. So I just, I enjoyed all of these episodes. Had a good time. It's like, you know, I didn't have any problems watching all three of them. Like, you know, sometimes I'm like, oh, I don't want to watch. But now watching Avatar is not a chore.
And like we said, these all go together. We're just like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. All this stuff's happening. Yeah. The other part of the boss thinks there's a ton of serialization. episodes moving serpents pass up to even you know tales passing say it's totally separate things but it's it's all of them are following up right from yeah it's all in boston say like this is like all this stuff's happening yeah
Definitely, probably, you know, I mean, we'll see in book three, but maybe the most heavily serialized part of Avatar 2. So that's cool. Good stuff, Delaney. Ben, what about you? What? Was it like for you rewatching these three episodes? Also, I didn't ask you how often do you revisit Avatar? Was it your first time watching these in a while or have you seen them recently?
I think I did my last rewatch two years ago, prior to now. It's sort of one of those things I revisit like once a year, once every two, something like that. You know, I'm not going to I think Delaney Cass spoke very well about the three episodes. So just a couple of observations I had some that I found interesting on this rewatch of the drill was, you know, you had.
Sokka kind of being instrumental in like, oh, look, if we attack this weak point, it'll collapse the whole thing. And it made me think to... even you know the the netflix show where they seem to be really kind of building up this like you could be an engineer thing and you know so i don't know if it was this episode that made like the netflix showrunners want to expand on that but I just thought it was an interesting parallel revisiting the show now having watched the Netflix show.
And then City of Walls and Secrets, I mean, it's... I don't know, like, it's just kind of scary, like, you know, watching that and thinking of, like... parallels to today yeah in a way yep yep i'm sorry i didn't mean everything sucks yeah you're right i want to talk about it more for sure if you would i'll let you take it on and then With Tales of Ba Sing Se, I like some of the stories better than others, but I do think overall it was...
Even the stories that maybe I'm not as fond of, it was good character development. Maybe not so much for Aang's. I think Aang's and maybe even Sokka's were just kind of silly. I don't really think they got too much development, but I obviously love Iroh's story the most. And I think the one with Katar and Toph was very sweet. Obviously, Zuko's date, it was nice to see him have a bit of normalcy. And, I mean, I guess there wasn't...
character development with Momo's story, but we had plot development. Momo can have character development, I think. Well, he can, yeah. He was sharing. He was sharing with Appa in the dream. He wasn't just eating all of the food. Yeah. Alright, there we go. Character development. And Mama becomes friends with Pumas too, right? Yes.
My wife was stressed for Momo. She was like, no! Ben, are you someone who would have said that... tales of basing say is one of the best episodes of avatar or are you more tepid on it because of the kind of disparity between the different ones i'm trying to remember to when i ranked these episodes a long time ago
I think for me it still holds... You did, you did. I think it falls somewhere in the middle for me. Ultimately, it's not... one of my like top 10 15 but it's nowhere near the bottom either you know yeah there's really only like one maybe two episodes of avatar that i would you know put at the quote bottom And a lot of them just kind of fall in like the they're good. They're good episodes. Yeah, for sure. So far in my rewatch, I'm re-ranking the episodes. I have two at the bottom.
King of Omashu and the Great Divide. We will see if Appa's Last Days joins them shortly. No! We'll see. I was such an opposite last days hater. I assume I'm going to like it more this time, but we'll find out. It's hard to say. But I brought up the reason I asked that is because. We referenced this already on this this season, but Tales of Basingstay frequently cited nowadays as one of the best episodes of Avatar. If you would have told that to us.
particularly me when we were podcasting on the show originally i would have been so outraged because uh like how do you rank this as one of the best episodes of avatar when half of the tales are like fine they're fine like they're not it's not you know they're decent nice little character moments but uh so like love the Iroh tale all you want you know and and it certainly is incredible Uh, you know, maybe the Zuko and Topham Katara ones are pretty good too, but, uh...
it's not cracking the top 25 i mean come on uh so that i think i still i still feel that way re-watching so what does current dylan think i still feel that way watching tales of basing say but i i'm not as i don't i don't feel the need to hate on it as much i guess I remember hating the Aang tale. I think it's fine. I think it's fine. The Sokka one is maybe the most inconsequential, but it's whatever.
And Sokka. So we'll get more into them. But yeah, I mean, the Iroh stuff is still great. I find a lot of value in both the Zuko and Toph and Katara ones as well. But, you know, I'm still not... incredibly high on tales bossing say be outraged as as you will for people listening i'm sure some people are because i don't like
For me, it's not like I think it's like incredible. I do think it's an extremely iconic episode and it has some of the most iconic scenes in the show in it. Well, the Iroh at the end, which, by the way, is not the end of that. episode is very funnily the second tale yeah it's the second tale well what else is iconic from it to you so i think um i mean in some ways like i think
To me, I really feel like Appa's lost days and like losing Appa is like, it's very important in the show. And I do think it's kind of iconic because Appa is so iconic in the show. I think a moment's tale kind of leans into that. Like we're kind of, we're pulling into. I do think also, I think kind of the top in Katara is pretty iconic because, and also because, and Sokka doing the haikus is like, if we're talking about people who think about Avatar, we're thinking about like...
That's what I mean by iconic. I'm going to stop you right there at calling the Saka haikus iconic. They are. The rest may be. It's very emblematic of the humor in the show. I will say Sokka, I'm an Iraqi. I do think that is a maybe top 100 avatar quoted line. So, OK, that's what I mean. Like we're talking like these are like what's emblematic. Like, I mean, you can really kind of boil the whole.
showdown into these shorts now do i think it's like the best episode of avid no and i don't i think it's a good better more iconic than it is like high quality okay that's what i mean yeah i also think if we compare this kind of episode to like if we were to compare this episode to like the history of episodes
that are like this i do think this is probably one of the best ones like in all of tv like live action like a like a vignette like it's a very good vignettes episode i think it's really good especially if we compare it to like the one in Korra. Right. The one in Korra was forced to be a clip show, so I think it's much more constrained than this episode. They did this on purpose. I was thinking that they did this on purpose. It's quite a choice that they made to...
Go into Ba Sing Se, pause, do an interesting vignettes episode, then do an interesting, then right after, do an animal POV 22-minute episode. Back to back, in the middle of one of the high points of your show. i think part of it is because almost like because there there are certain things that have to happen in boston say but like we couldn't leave yet so i think they had to like i agree
I think they might have spaced it if they could, but it was kind of story timing. Yeah. Well, and another thing is after these two episodes, like basically, you know. from that point to the end of season two, they slam their foot on the gas pedal and don't stop. You know, one thing I'll say for Tales of Boston, say, you know, as far as like, I think how people may.
call it iconic or put up there as one of the best to me. It's sort of the same thing. And it's funny because in our like little discord chat, we were talking about this, you know, comparing to star Wars rogue one as a film, you know, if you ask people about Rogue One, they say like the first two thirds, it's like, it's okay, you know, fine. But then you get to the last third, it's like, oh my gosh, like, you know, it's so amazing. It's among the best. And I think that's...
Maybe a comparison to Tales of Bossing say that some of the stories are, yeah, all right, but the really strong ones like Iroh, like Zuko, and yeah, I'll throw Momo in there too. Like, they're... like when they're good they're really good among the best from book two so nice
Yeah, so we'll come back to the specific tales. I actually agree with that Rogue One comparison. That's kind of how I felt about Rogue One, like amazing ending. I wasn't as high on the rest of it. I will say Mel, if you listen to our pitch meeting podcast, Mel was super high on Rogue One. So people are very...
opinions, but I like that, Ben. That kind of speaks to my feelings for maybe both of those things. The Drill. I was not a super big The Drill person originally, so I was interested to rewatch The Drill. I think I am unfortunately do not have a very interesting different opinion here because I basically am still not a big the drill person. It's a very good episode. I think I probably put it in the very good tier, mostly on the back of the third act.
which has an iconic action scene between Aang and Azula. Um, on top of the drill, incredible use of the location with the falling boulders and the drill going into the wall. It's, it's, it's such a complex, great action scene. There's, I think the, the end of the drill is amazing. The first two thirds they have, they do, I will say they do have some iconic.
lines which we'll go through so i i think it's a very good episode to me i think the drill is trying to clearly mike and brian wrote it try in the same position in the season trying to be the um the blue spirit of book two And I think it doesn't necessarily succeed as much to me as the Blue Spirit and being that kind of iconic action set piece episode. But it gets maybe two thirds of the way there. So it's still good. And then City of Walls and Secrets. Okay.
Originally, this is, in Dylan's mind, one of the all-time greatest TV episodes of all time. I think I probably referenced this a lot. I pulled out my old Avatar rankings. This is number two. in my all out of 161 just behind the book one finale or i adored this episode And if you wanted to say, like, finales don't really count. They're kind of too high. You know, it's kind of there. They have so much going for them. This is the best normal episode of Avatar. That was original Dylan.
14 year old Dylan's opinions on on this. So very interested to see rewatching it. I mean, I rewatch it and it is such an impressive. Likely done written episode. It's I think I thought of it more as like a city introduction episode, maybe more so than I originally did. Just the presentation of the city showing.
I... the how grand and and all the various aspects flaws but then the like gradual escalation to this under the dark underbelly of the city in the in the incredibly iconic climax at the end of right at the end of the episode it seamlessly interweaves the a and the b plots with the jet stuff into into them the there's no war embossing say ending with the brainwashing cutting to long fin talking to them in my mind that is just like peak television
like that if i had to maybe say one moment in all of avatar and all of television that's peak do the kids these days say kino whatever like this is this is the peak of of all of of all of, uh, storytelling in television that I would have said is the end of this as the end of city of walls and secrets. I don't know. I think other people don't feel quite as strong about this, but if you listen to the podcast back in the day, this will probably ring a bell. So how, what was it? Rewatching.
I mean, it's great. I feel like if I were it's this is this we could spend most of the podcast on this and I would maybe we will we. I feel like the brainwashing stuff, the silencing the masses, keep talk of conflict away to maintain the peace. I think that stuff hit harder when we were younger. That did not hit as hard to me conceptually, politically, thematically. I think it is presented. It's still kind of presented in such an incredible way. But like Ben mentioned, I think it.
It feels light, a little light or just the same as a lot of current. current events now so yeah it's hard to be like it's hard to be like whoa when you're like living that reality so like as like sheltered teenagers privileged sheltered privileged teenagers in a very stable america seeing the end of city of walls and secrets is like mind-blowing like brainwashing silent like political like uh
Like all that. It's, it's, it's, it's, I cannot tell you a puppet. I cannot tell you how hard all of that stuff hit. I just don't think it has the same impact now. Not that our country is in this or any countries in the exact same situation. It's just like there are similarly horrific structural things happening that make this not as impactful as my is generally how.
And it's not really the episode's fault. But I guess I will say, having seen a lot of, like, you know, 10x more media now than I did, maybe 100x then when I saw this episode originally, there is a lot of other stuff that tackles, like... brainwashing, propaganda. It's not so radical what's in this episode. I think it was just radical for a kid's show, for us at the time. And regardless, it's presented incredibly well.
and it's like and it's kind of also this counter to like most of the propaganda we deal with in avatars the fire nation but in this case we're dealing with these are supposed to be the good guys and they're like this is what they're doing
I do want to add that talking about how incredible this episode is you also have to remember this is also a character introduction this episode does a lot of heavy lifting like we in addition to all these things it reveals and introduces Long Feng who then becomes like this kind of
villain for like the stretch of episodes so it's really incredible what this episode does like what it establishes um i mean we get like long fang like you know it's like it's incredible like in these like five minutes we spend we spend with him this we get all of this It accomplishes so much. I think it's similar in my mind to the waterbidding master in the city intro. And I think maybe this episode even accomplishes more than that.
Two iconic episodes. In short, I want to talk more about the impact of the ending and stuff, but in short, I still think it's one of the best episodes of the show. I think it was great. I'm not as firm on like it's the second best episode of Avatar. I maybe need some help in ranking this versus Zuko alone and the Blue Spirit, which I have right near it. I don't even know how to rank those three, honestly.
um all three played very well on rewatch so i don't know but it was it was still fantastic this was this was this was like circled on my calendar with avatar rewatch getting to city of walls and secrets and i do think it delivered That being said, interesting how it plays today, for sure. I mean, like when me and my wife, Shannon, watched...
You know, this episode, we got to, you know, the end with Long Feng, and we just both looked at each other, and we're like, yep, but it's a little different today. And, you know, because I actually... We were talking before we started recording, but I really loved The Owl House and recently rewatched it. And I'm watching Bellows, and I'm like, hmm. Suspicious. It just, it's...
It's so weird how this is all feeling very, like, for fantasy, you know, animated shows, how some of this stuff just really is hitting, you know, close to home right now, so. And I will say, I think it's... Yeah, that's a good point comparing it to other shows. I think just fantasy storytelling in general, this is a frequent type of thing to do, having like a heavily propagandized hiding information. I will say the literal brainwashing.
is maybe a little unique to, to avatar. Like the, that's, that's still kind of shocking with the lamp. Like there's nothing like that really. I feel like an avatar, maybe like bloodbending is similarly shocking, but yeah, I would say bloodbending. It's the only thing that comes close. I feel like I never heard...
Thought to compare those two before, but they do kind of stand up. So I think the actual, like, they're literally brainwashing people. It's very on the nose for what could be a metaphor. But the rest of it, I think, is a common fantasy element. So and I do think like the more things you watch, the less radical this even ignoring current political realities in anywhere in the world.
I do think the types of things City of Walls and Secrets gets into are less radical the more stuff you watch because this is a frequent plot point in a lot of fantasy stuff and a lot of shows and movies in general and books. That being said, I'll... You always have to remember, Avatar is a big, flake, tentpole, forebearer show now. Looking back 20 years later, many things nowadays in the past 10 years were heavily influenced by Avatar. So to say...
Owl House, any other animated shows did this too. A lot of them very, very likely influenced by Avatar. Our space at Overly Animated, the animated show space at the very least, we know that a ton of people working on these shows nowadays grew up like us.
watching avatar and now they're the ones making the shows so It's not surprising to see narrative elements, character elements more frequently used that came from Avatar, but we shouldn't, you know, obviously punish Avatar for being very influential in that regard.
Which on that note, I might need some show recommendations from you all because I could use a few new things to watch. Perfect. Let's do that then. Let's give some animated show recommendations to people who are not like normal overly animated listeners. Let me write that down on that line.
i did want to um point out too is that you know we're talking about you know maybe not necessarily radical but something that did strike me that was i was like oh wow they just came out and said it guitar is like why are all the poor people here like that was like like i was like wow you just came out and said it and obviously we end up not doing anything about it but um and also when we come when we revisit busting say in like 80 years it's the same
Do they go back to Basin St. Korra? I don't remember. Yes, that's what I'm telling you. When do they go? In book three. In book three? What? Oh, the queen. Okay. In my mind, that's not bossing. Are we there briefly? Is it just like one episode where there are two episodes? Maybe one or two because we see like their family, like Bolin and Mako's family. I don't know why the queen, I won't spoil what happens to the queen. I don't know why in my mind that wasn't in Bossing Se.
important thing that happened yeah the earth queen she lives in i guess i just didn't know yeah i guess that makes sense uh yeah good thing ali's not here no i remember and oh but dylan's ali's screaming and like doesn't know why and then like remember bowen has like this picture of the queen and she's like of the queen like i remember that now i wouldn't have i was like you remember unless you mentioned no i wouldn't have unless you told me but uh yeah it's okay so there's a lot
that we need to I need to remember you know but you know I mean I will say that's a pretty big deal especially like like it's interesting because like kind of like It's funny, too, when you think about, like, Katara and Sokka, like, arguably, or, like, they're from, like, probably, like, one of the poorest areas in the world, this, like, decimated South Pole, but they are also, like, royalty technically in their, like, society. But then, like...
it's funny like it's kind of it's kind of funny this like weird juxtaposition and then like and also four of them are also poor like they never have any money like no money but to be fair they're like getting help all the time because the avatar and then also top just whips out this like bay phone card and is like, excuse me, excuse me. Yeah. It's like when she does that.
I agree. I agree. That was a part that really stood out to me. Katara says all those poor people blocked off in one part of the city. Aang says it's so different from how the monks taught me to live. I loved that too. It's a good point. That you make Delaney that the show doesn't really follow up super hard on this? Pointing it out is like, okay, that's good. We don't do anything else.
You could argue that the entire Iroh Zuko plotline of Ba Sing Se is them getting into the lives of the lower range. It is. Right. It is. And then... I mean, and it's also, I mean, Avatar is a show about refugees. I mean, everywhere we go, we're helping people we're talking about. Yeah, it was incredible. The refugee stuff, we specifically talked about it in Serpent's Pass. So amazing. I don't like for me, I really understand. It's incredible how we go from like these refugees and.
is you know we the fire nation and colonize the earth kingdom but then like also these are families that grew up in these places like this has been going on for a hundred years and then how this becomes republic city is a really compelling story
that unfortunately I don't think Korra delivers on. And maybe we can explore a little bit more about it in... That'd be interesting to get into it. Because to be in Avatar right now and to see an interaction between Jet... and Zuko and like the animosity there and like you know this like the culture the society that we live in and then to then in 80 in like it's like 60 years in 60 years we have Bolin and Mako.
like this is like it's really interesting to think about and it's kind of like really it's really compelling but like we don't like the show doesn't really give it to us if that makes sense like it's there we don't like talk about it as much It's very surface level and it's interesting. Like there is some really like juicy stuff we could do. Yeah. You could argue avatars may be more successful in that sort of thing. Cause it maybe slows down a little, a little bit for some of it.
well that's well of course that was also a product of um quora is a very different show and format like quora was very like we had shorter seasons like that the focus for quora was very different seasonal seasonal storytelling yeah very different It has been fascinating during this rewatch. Sorry, Dylan, I'll be quick. But it's just been fascinating. Like rewatching this show and just anything because I'm a big Disney guy. You know, I grew up.
all those disney films and even re-watching some of those you know in my you know later years now and just finding some of the themes they touched on even if it was subtle because i think avatar It kind of hit the nail on the head more so than a lot of older Disney films. But even then, some of the imagery, the themes they touch, I was just like, whoa, these were a little more...
I don't say adult as inappropriate, obviously, but just more mature themes than you would have ever hit me as a kid. So it's just a fascinating journey revisiting this stuff. so many years later so Yeah, for sure. I think the refugee thematics, Warren, we talked about it heavily last podcast, but Warren again mentioning because at the end of the drill, we get this amazing, like hopeful ending to the episode of seeing all like Zuko, Iroh and the other refugees heading into Boston.
say for the first time and it's just this like extremely hopeful note to end the episode on Ira also sees baby hope so you know very on the nose there too um but I mean it's it's beautiful and that's another great point to the drill like having such an amazing last, last several minutes, but, uh, just the, the refugee thematics was, is even.
is even more radical now somehow just because as you know discussed our country is at a very conservative place with immigration right now attitudes not just policy of a current administration just general attitudes are extremely yeah you know inflammatory against uh people other people entering the country avatar is a show that presents
people going into Ba Sing Se and the whole refugee experience, it presents it in a very detailed light and very positive of them finding a new place in the world. We should point out, it's just extremely radical. It is. I think at this time of Avatar...
Maybe there's, I don't know the exact landscape, political landscape, Western landscape timeline, but this was maybe more widely accepted in progressive circles. It's still obviously accepted now in progressive circles, but... I think it shouldn't be noted how... kind of like how different from standard political opinion this is now, as shocking as that is. And Avatar gets a ton of kudos for including that. And it's one of many things that I'm so happy that it's an aspect of one of them.
most widely viewed shows maybe in the world now in the past 20 years that Avatar is. Right. Big, big, top maybe 10 thematic I'm happy that people get to see when. when they watch avatar as it's been so popular since the show aired um getting back to one other aspect of the ending of city of walls and secrets and we'll move on to other stuff but this was uh you know i think it's the highlight of
One of the highlights of the show, so I want to give it its due and talk about all the aspects of it. I felt the whole aspect of the Dai Li as the keepers of the... Cultural, yeah. The cultural. That really hit me this time. I was like, if you had asked me before we watched this episode who the Dai Li were,
I wouldn't have told you that's what they were. I would have said they're like, oh, they're like the secret police of Ba Sing Se. They protect the king. I wouldn't have said that. They protect the cultural heritage. bossing say and like that it's specifically say that and the traditions they say the traditions so we can relate that to the we can it's very we can relate that to the west but i in my mind i'm like okay this is intended is at the time this is intended to be like a china
commentary like right i like i maybe not even a commentary of modern china i think this is probably just based on historical i don't even know i don't even think about china i mean obviously obviously the earth kingdom is like heavily influenced by Chinese culture but like I mean if we really want to dig into it it's really more emblematic of Japan like so fire the fire nation is very like imperialistic Japan but then like if we're talking about like tradition and like that um
like protecting tradition and like being very anti like everything else it's very much japan so china though so like we kind of have you can be both there are parallels with both sure a lot of uh Asian Asian cultures, historical cultures could be influenced here. I think the aspect of like a cultural police who are there to maintain cultural heritage is I think likely this the inspiration for this is is them looking into the history of.
of various Asian countries, maybe even particularly China. I'm not like a historian, an Eastern historian. I think that's maybe where they get that from. I'm like, is this supposed to be a, is, is, is passing say like an, a commentary on India with the, the cast system.
Is that what they're going for? How much of it? I know specifically Ba Sing Se, like visually and stuff, is I think based on, I forget, they make and Brian talk about this all the time, on a specific Chinese city or something, ancient city or something like that. But yeah, I'm like, how much of this is them being like Westerners, like, oh, US Western capitalism stuff is good.
Oh, all this stuff, certain things going on in like Indian China, that's bad. So we're going to kind of satirize that. How much of that is going on? I don't necessarily think so. I mean, Mike and Brian are always like pretty progressive, radical type figures. now but I think even at the time of Avatar how much of it is it's probably just them finding you know Avatar is based on
Asian culture. And so they're probably just finding inspiration in historical. If you think about it, let's let's if we argue for a moment, but let's say it was meant to be that. funnily enough we are now satirizing like american culture and like the current political climate like that's what's funny about it is like if we flip it that's what's happening now
Right. That was where I'm eventually going to go. And you could also argue this is there's some like Nazi history stuff that they and also like and also kind of like a Puritanism.
that's true too yeah but now delaney you ended up where i was gonna end up so but now interestingly i feel like you can apply this to now not that there's like a secret police but the concept of but who knows the people listening to this two years from now who knows uh yeah who knows like the concept and they're like oh they don't even know they don't even know i just think like
Hiding, like censor, like just censoring and silencing the masses of like not providing them with his actual information, keeping. And like calling all that, like keeping our traditions of like, you know, that does that does feel very modern conservative movement in America. Like we believe in hurting a bunch of people.
that's just us keeping the traditions of past America obviously I'm simplifying and well also there is a certain conflict happening in the world at the moment where this is like extremely very much what's happening so We don't have to get too much into it. And Western attitudes towards other conflicts in the world and not providing wide information.
Yeah, I do think the does does this type of stuff in this episode hold up for me? Like, yes, even maybe even more so now. Right. You know, especially that concept of like. We're keeping the traditions and it's like it's an enforcers that making sure people only believe certain types of things definitely holds up now. Definitely holds up. I do just think. they kind of also have this very scary imagery like we're the dialy are very intimidating and the hands like
I love the rock hands are so good. It's such an iconic visual. It's so perfect for what they're going, pulling people back into the darkness. It's really astounding. At the very least, I just wonder if a lot of people watch. More normies than us who aren't quite so out there politically as the types of things we're talking about. I wonder if they watch and they say that, oh, they're just kind of satirizing China here. I wonder if most people just think that.
And I wonder if that's how the episode was written. I'm kind of not completely sure. Which I don't know how, like, one, I don't, again, also not an expert on anything going on in China. But, you know, we do know there is this kind of like social system and they like track things and this can impact your place and activities and access to things. And also it hits different now after COVID.
I think these are also like, you know, these walls and like, you know, we were restricted and that kind of an access and not that, not that the United States ever actually went on lockdown, but other places did. Maybe China's response. China's response to 2020 COVID. That's interesting. China's response to COVID and Japan's response to COVID. I was kind of talking about the social ranking they do in China.
and that like how that impacts like certain things and that's kind of and i think that and i think there are probably daily equivalents in in countries like china not that you know not that i'm trying to say like us so bad other countries so good i think a lot of countries so bad uh so I think that's maybe where they're coming from. We just don't have an established system. It happens. You could argue certain American institutions function as the daily.
that's true several actually several so um and not just metaphorically literally um so I think my guess is when they're writing it, they're like taking from maybe Asian history with maybe like an eye towards like modern China. But keeping like a satirization slash messaging of could this apply to our cultures as well? I bet that's where they're coming from. I mean, we have to think about, too. I mean, we're talking about like 2008 and like we're talking like.
like the bush administration and they might be commenting on the bush administration here yeah we're talking about like his second his second term and there's and of course And, you know, we're children or at least I mean, y'all were teenagers. I was a child. And I do remember things that were happening and like the political climate, like in like a very vague sense. You know, we look back on that now. But no, I think there's a lot of things that we could be like pulling at. Yeah.
Interesting. Okay. I think if people are not enjoying this part, we can move on to other things. Ben, any other last thoughts on anything about the end of City of Walls and Secrets? Well, one thing I'll add, because I did check into this, it said that the city of Ba Sing Se itself was largely inspired by Beijing and the Forbidden City. Forbidden City. When you were talking, I was like, I'm pretty sure it's the Forbidden City, but I didn't want to say it and be wrong. Yeah.
I do. I think what you were saying, you know, it's probably a fair point. Like, I don't think they were drawing on one particular. you know thing like one particular country one particular but just a general sense of you know asian history you know yeah uh or just this like very kind of this like militarized secret police like monitor apply to a lot of places yeah yeah a lot of places yeah but it is very
I mean, because this episode aired in 2006, and here we are in 2025. And it is scary how... Yeah. you know, it's scary. Yeah. It just, how some of that can really apply to today. And I'm like, you know, cause I was just starting college when this all aired. And here I am now, like 18 years later, just like now it's like almost a reflection of our own country and it's very terrifying. So, yeah, I think I hope we don't.
get to that point but yeah let's hope people aren't looking back and uh thinking it's very literal now yeah it's very literal it's like it's like every time you watch the simpsons you're like how did they know Yeah. And then the comments. Yeah, I saw. And then people's commentary on that is that's called political. That's like that's called satirization on.
Like, yeah, they're commenting on things they're seeing at the present and then it reflects in the future. So this is like, that's a good point. Similar to some of the Simpsons predictions, Avatar is just making good. commentary on current things they're seeing around them, which then come to roost many years later. So that's interesting. I mean, unfortunately, you look through history and the pendulum always swings two ways, you know.
Unfortunately, right now the pendulum has swung very extreme one way, and who knows how long it'll take to swing back, but eventually it does. So it's just very scary right now. So yeah, it's interesting that we're, I was going to say it's interesting we're discussing this.
uh early 2025 as opposed to when we started this series like last year would have been a different discussion i think so right definitely oh absolutely would have been a different yeah i would have had i think i would have had similar things to say and kind of about different topics but uh but yeah
yeah it is interesting it would have been different it would have been different um Yeah, and obviously, if any, I do think just conceptually what they're going for here is like, this is the other side of the war and this is their... Their response to the war, the war around this insulated city. So not I'm not saying all of this is I think they start out very in universe. Right. I'm not trying to claim that they're just inherently doing political commentaries.
was all just like a meta discussion about it but the way they they arrive at but the state of basing say i think is similar to what i've been impressed with with avatar throughout this rewatch has been they very much say okay this is what the world The map we set up, let's narrow in. What would this place be like? There's a walled, we need to establish Ba Sing Se is the capital of the Earth Kingdom and is like a walled city.
What's that like during the height of the war? Oh, what if what if they're keeping that information from the people, right? Like it's a very organically derived based on the state of the world that they set up. It's just more incredible world building that at this point. You said the height of the war, which is interesting because it's not the height. I mean, we're coming to the close of the war.
um and Aang literally woke up 10 minutes ago and was like there's a war going on and Katarin and Sokka are products of a century of war this war has been going on for a hundred years and like it's you know we're fighting this war but it's it's kind of like you know you're just like feeding like people into this machine and just crunching them up
So it's kind of interesting to now be talking, to be in Ba Sing Se and to see how they're reacting. And they kind of talk about Long Feng's like, you know, this endless war. like you know it's we need to it's interesting we're the not it's not the middle of the war but it is still one of the one of the heights of the way i mean they're attacking blasting say again what was their reaction uh
Did they also hide the existence of the war when Iroh was attacking Blasting State? That's interesting. I think probably that's what they're implying, which is really interesting how they did that during an act of siege.
Well, because I'm trying to remember during this, like, because there's several walls, right? Surrounding Boston. Right. So there's an outer wall and then the outer wall. Right. So Iroh never got past the inner wall. So they could have just hidden it. Yeah. But they probably cut off some.
supplies and stuff you know well i mean when you think about it i mean the drill just hit got through the wall and it's like i don't think the people inside know that i didn't know they had only got through the outer wall yeah they don't really know And like, as we watch them, you know, ride the tram, you know, they're, I mean, it's at least, I would say at least a mile, if not more.
to get from the outer wall. One thing I appreciated about the Aang tale, he moves the animals between the outer and the inner wall. I like that they played with that space. So yeah, I think the show does a fairly good, subtle job of establishing. like that there's this whole section of the city before you get to the true city. And they probably designed it that way.
You know, partly probably inspired by ancient Beijing, but also like just so they could arrive at the super insulated populace. Right.
oh, they're like two walls deep, you know, in a whole, this whole location sort of separating them from the world. And if you keep all the refugees and all the poor people here... you're not impacting the important people and the important people yeah the in the middle middle and upper class even more insulated too in the middle it's interesting um okay last last point though i want to make is is the brainwashing too much or is it like
because it's it's one of the like i like i do think bloodbending is a good comparison it's kind of like magic like bloodbending they try to justify at least with the bet like and it is justifiable but I feel like brainwashing is just like pure magic in the show. I mean, it makes sense, though. I mean, I guess as someone who watches a lot of weird stuff like this, I don't know.
I mean, do you think it's just like a magician? It's like the art of suggestion. No, I mean, I really think, I mean, it's torture. He's being tortured. So I think it's really torture and this kind of like you wear like, well, it's like, I mean.
this happens in the real world like getting false confessions and that kind of thing like he is you know he's trapped in this dark room and also dark darkness and isolation we know has is really really really really really bad for you and like your brain and so like I mean, it makes sense. And also, Jet is also a child. Like, we're talking, he's also very young.
And so I think that's another thing that we're talking. I mean, he's what, like 16, 17. If I think it's implied, they brainwash other people. Yes, absolutely. But that's what we're talking about, though. I mean, and we have the two D's. Are the Judys brainwashed or are they in on it? It's a good question. They're brainwashed. Okay. What do you think, Ben?
I think so, too. I mean, because I wonder, but I also wonder, like, you know, is it, you know, and maybe it's interchangeable terms here, brainwash, mental programming. you know like it's programming like yeah like like a very crude yeah yeah go ahead no sorry i was just gonna say because you know it It took a little bit of work, but Jet was able to wake up. It just took... Spoilers. I wish it could have been cognitive recalibration hitting him hard in the head. Yeah.
but i don't i don't remember how it happened so i'm excited okay i won't say how but but yeah does a rock hit the middle of his back and reactivate the avatar state is that what happens yes that's how that works exactly well it's like um well i mean obviously they do it in a really stupid way i the pheromone stuff made me crazy but like In Black Widow. That's what they do. I just forgot about that. I didn't. Delaney, you keep reminding me of things that I didn't know happened until.
you will be i forget it the pheromone stuff in black widow is stupid but like well that i don't i that i watched that movie and i have no idea what you're talking about but that's fine you don't need to know it's stupid anyway but like that you know but really like deprogramming these people who who've been brainwashed and that kind of stuff.
I think it's a fair point that, as Delaney mentioned, all these real world things, the brainwashing in this show may be a slightly exaggerated version of real things. So I think that's fair. But at the very least, I think my commentary would be just because... At the very least, the brainwashing, the bloodbending, they're just these very shocking big things. Because the show uses them sporadically, I think it works. I think if they did stuff like this all the time, they use it well, well-placed.
sporadically in the show these kind of major things well it's like bloodbending i mean i think bloodbending is like this natural like we're talking you know we're talking about this fantasy world and these kind of fantastical abilities everyone has it's kind of like we work like there's a limit like so we could take it to absurdity but we take bloodbending
you know it's believable blood bending metal bending lava bending like we get there eventually and it's um which is also really funny my wife was like i can't wait for her to metal bend the drill and i was like it doesn't happen yet she doesn't know how to metal bend yet Calm down. We're not there yet, Tanya. We're not there. Ang says, I wish I could metal bend. Yes, I was also like, he said it. He said the thing. I was like, wow. I personally, I think bloodbending.
Brainwashing. I think these are kind of breaking the rules of the show. And so that's why I'm like, I'm glad they do them sporadically. I think lightning bending is probably enough. honestly you could argue i think metal bending also they break the rules of the show that's why they have to like seed it throughout like right we're gonna put it in the drill we put it in these previous episodes like they they kind of know that they're
going against what they said in book one. So they really have to set it up. But yeah, I think in general, Avatar is pretty good at establishing the boundaries and then only breaking them in a way that makes sense and that works for the audience.
but i think they have to like i think it's um like it's just not like how the show naturally progresses and also i mean we're talking about like we're talking about a show that what you know kind of just goes from this concept to you know we have this full-blown world and we're talking now we have like there's two series um there weren't there's more like we have you know really come there's a lot more lore to track there's a lot there's a lot
I mean, at least when it comes to things like bloodbending and metalbending, I think they did a good enough job kind of, like, explaining them. Like, metalbending, you know, it's about understanding, like, you know, the... the structure of the metal, you know, how it's like... the composite they try to explain it a lot yeah which and they do and i mean they have limits still like you know you can't bend like titanium or platinum or whatever it is in core i don't remember what it is
But you can't, like, bend, like, pure metal. Because those are, like, very pure. Yeah. Dylan's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. It's okay, Dylan. We'll talk about pro-bending and you'll be okay. Oh, now I'm excited. Dylan knows everything about pro-bending. Yeah, now Dylan's like, whoa.
Oh, yay. The Quidditch of Avatar. Let's go. Oh, yeah. So much better than Quidditch. Come on. Absolutely. That's correct. We love Quidditch. Anything's better than Quidditch. The pro thing doesn't have stupid rules. defeat the purpose.
Yeah. Okay. Well, we can, let's move, let's, we can move on. I was going to, I was going to keep talking about the metal bedding. We'll, we'll get, we'll have more on metal bedding to come. So I think, you know, a lot of, a lot of good stuff. And, and, and what, what, let's go, let me go through the other parts I had highlighted for city and Wilson.
secrets then we'll get to that episode um top in the beginning top says you've been hitting the cactus juice again great great um i was like did they know they knew cocktail cactus juice was so i also want to know when we're doing the drill they go underground and soccer's like oh my god it's dark down here i can't see anything and top's like what a nightmare
yes we get that iconic line it's so dark down here i can't see a thing oh no what a nightmare so good definitely iconic toff blind joke we've been tracking the how the show handles it i'm not getting there she's like i'm not getting in the drill bye and that's a tough self-blind joke and i yeah i
that's consistently they're showing tough, not wanting to go places where she can't see. I think, I think that's nice too. That's been very consistent in the past two episodes. Um, more city of wells and secret stuff uh we iconic i forget that all these iconic iro t lines are all from this episode literally all from this episode every single one like i can't believe someone from my own family
I say something so horrible. Zuko says this tea is nothing more than hot leaf juice or the Iroh says that tea is nothing more than hot leaf juice Zuko. Uncle, that's what all tea is. How can a member of my own family say something so horrible? Sick of tea, that's like being sick of breathing. We get that too. Like, it's just all right now. These are all the Yara lines. There you go. That's great stuff.
Ben, what's your favorite? Are your favorite moments from these episodes or ones we haven't seen or what? Gosh, there's definitely some really good moments here. I kind of have to compile a list to say what my absolute favorites are. Yeah, like when he does heat up his tea with firebending, I have equal parts. I'm like, that is very Iroh. You know, he loves his tea. And then I'm like, but are you stupid? You're in the middle of like the capital of the Earth Kingdom.
I was like, even Zuko's like, for a wise old man, that was pretty stupid. Yeah, but I think I'm on Iroh's side. Only someone as obsessive as Jet would even care, but would notice this. That is correct, but unfortunately Jet is like- Unfortunately Jet is there. He's like-
I mean, to be fair, yeah, because it's not very obvious firebending. It's not like he did a big flame in his hand. Also, maybe you should loudly proclaim your tea is cold and then it's hot two minutes later. Like, just a thought. It's true. It's true. Very ironic. Yeah. Yes, a lot of good. OK. Yeah, I love. Yeah, I do love how he's like, you know, this tea is dreadful. I'm going to make some better stuff.
I don't know. Just, yeah, this, there's some really good moments of Iroh here because, and that's great because considering, you know, first half of season three, we don't get to see him much. He doesn't even talk. Well, yeah, because he's in jail because his nephew sucks. We haven't gotten that part yet. He's still fine right now. It's a good point that in the span of one episode here, Iroh...
completely revamps this one tea shop and it's the best tea in the city. Oh, and then he buys the flowers and he's like, you know, in case someone brings home a lady friend. Also, I forgot how much of a ladies' man Iroh is. He just hits on every woman he sees. He's flirting with the immigration lady from last episode. And Zuko is like, this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. So funny.
Um, I, I, we, we briefly get smell or be in long shot here. It's all right. Trying to talk jet out of being obsessed. I noticed long shots arm around smell or be. Yeah. It's like, do you both feel this way? Which is really funny to say to somebody who doesn't talk. Wait, it's so funny. Longshot and Smellerby together? I think we've done this before. Duh. This was obvious when...
Iroh misgendered smellery. And that helped. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like we'll see if they get more to do with the later jet stuff, but. Avatar continues to put some focus on characters that don't really matter. Not one of Iroh's best moments, to be sure.
No, we had a whole discussion about that. I mean, I understand because they're leaving the wife, but like they literally don't, they never show up again like after this. This is their, is this their last appearance? They don't appear for the jet stuff? No, I think they're here for the Jet stuff, but they don't come back. Like, that's it. But when Jet is, you know, meets his fate later, are they around? Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah, they are. They're around when he meets his fate, and then...
And then they leave. Yeah. I just mean like Pipsqueak and the Duke come back for Day of Black Sun. Okay. I figured out the next pitch meeting for Avatar Studios. smell or be long shot miniseries what happens to them after bossing say let's do it don't they show up in one of the comics i'm trying to remember probably probably that sounds right probably that's yeah i want delaney i want
To track their romance, I want Smeller B transitioning and Longshot realizing his identity. And it's like Stardew Valley, but it's like... They start a farm. I don't know. This is what we need. Clearly this is what they should spend their time on, Avatar Studios. Okay, we have the iconic exchange about the king's bear. King's having a party for the pet bear. You mean platypus bear. You mean they go out through all bears. Just a bear. This place is weird.
Armadillo bear. And then we see them when Aang is at the zoo. We see some of these bears. I think we thought this was the, yeah, we do. I think we thought this is like the funniest thing. Because it is. It is. And it's still funny. I am tempted to be I'm tempted to be like, but guys, the hybrid animal thing, it wasn't from the beginning of the show. It was like some from there's there's a lot of normal animals in book one.
You suddenly, you guys kind of suddenly decided halfway through book one that all the animals had to be hybrid animals. And now you're like calling it out like this. Except there's like normal cats and there's also not normal cats. Like, I don't know how they decided this. So I guess it's kind of consistent that sometimes there's a normal.
Why is this so notable but Miyuki's not notable? It's still great now. Because there's penguins, which... yeah i think they're i think they're like otter otter penguins or there's something penguins yeah so that that's one from the start yeah uh because i'm trying like you said yeah there's cats is there any other normal there aren't dogs
There was there was some stuff in early book when I can't remember, but we talked about it earlier in the series. But yeah, we get Toph and Katara dressed up back to back episodes of them in like makeup. Right. So that's. Yes. I really like when Toph's, like, don't talk to the commoners. It's really funny. Yeah, I like that. Also, like, this is also another iconic scene where Sokka and Aang are like, and they just, like, knock each other out, and then, like...
Momo, your momoness. That wasn't the iconic I was going to point out, but I agree. Great. How about Katara's Dressed? Aang says, wow, you look beautiful. That's what we were going to point out here, Delaney. Yes, obviously. Saka Flixing. Very important. This is the only Katang in the three episodes, but we must point it out. Big moment. In all the AMVs, for sure.
Yes, oh, 100%, duh. It was great. Okay, the only other thing I had, what do we think of Judy at the end? New Judy. Doesn't our Judy come back? Okay, I shouldn't ask questions so that I know, that we're going to find out later. You also ask questions because you legitimately don't remember and it's funny.
I don't, I assume, I assume OG, OG, dude, I am 90% sure OG duty appears in Lake Laoga. I'm 90% sure. And then I wanted to also say, we know she's being brainwashed or at least I think so because she's like scared. because she knows what could happen. Right, but that would point to her not being brainwashed. She's actually fearful of consequences. She's in the know and is fearful of consequences. I think this is a trope that happens in other shows.
like or like being reprogrammed and you're like i don't want to do that again so i don't think they necessarily get being programmed but yeah probably somewhere in the middle yeah um okay unless it's a part of the programming of like you know Yeah, fear response type of thing. Yeah. It's fair. You kind of need that encouragement. What's going to keep you in line?
Yeah, I always, and you could define what is brainwashing. I'm defining brainwashing as like literally they have no idea about that they're being brainwashed. I would define, but I think. I always interpreted Judy as like, she's, she knows what's going on and she's just like being threatened. Like she knows that she'll disappear if she steps out. That's fair. But unclear, unclear. Okay.
So let's talk more about the drill. I mean, we've talked, I think... for the most big things already um i wanted to mention the 3d animation of the drill i think oh you mean being horrible you mean like i was waiting i was waiting like i was being so good you were like talking about the drill and i was like are we gonna talk about the horrible cgi that's happening a lot of 3d cgi so shout out sam who always talked about how the terrible cgi i think the drill looks fine but it's
I don't know if it's egregious. And I'm like, oh my god, stop. Like, once we're in the drill, it's fine. Outside, I'm like, stop. Stop showing it to me. This is a product of its time. At this time, they didn't have the effects as well integrated into more standard 2D animation.
And you also see this even in something like Spirited Away that's so incredibly beautifully animated. There are some shots like the drill that they specifically use 3D for. They're much better looking in that movie, of course, than the ones Avatar ones. But it's just a product of the time. what they had available to them at this point. But it's very, I think it's maybe most noticeable here. And then also in those doors that the mechanism doors.
no so i i definitely was watching the drill going oh the whole time it's honestly it's anytime there is a fire nation war machine it's like god that's disgusting like it's so bad like like they're tanks i'm like stop stop you make me sick oh my god i will say the drill itself is really cool like the way that it's like segmented and like it's super neat but like oh my god it makes you want to die
What do you think of Lee and Mushi as the nicknames for... Did they do this already in... I think those from... Was this from all the way in the beginning of the season? I think so. He goes by Lee. Yeah. Because that kid's name is Lee, right? Yeah, yep, yep, yep. Okay, now it's all coming together. Okay. Yeah, it was early book two when they first started going on the run. Was it like 202 or 203? 202, 202, yeah. Okay, Tai Laka, though.
Have we talked about the Tailaka? Oh, God. Tylee says, it is the Avatar and Friends. Smirk. Sokka says, hey. So I didn't. I forgot that Sokka was kind of into it. That's the part I forgot here. That's valid. I don't know if I can say this word on the podcast, but it's because he's like that. Are you going to say a man bleep? Yes, man bleep. That is correct. And bleep. He is. He kind of, he is. He's like, I love Yue. I love Suki. But if I see any other woman, I'm like.
He is the worst. He grew up with no other girls his age other than his sister, and now he's the target of all of these girls' affection. To be fair, this was me when I went to college, and I was like, wow, I like girls. Look at all these girls. Let's be real. You're Sokka, Delaney. You're actually Sokka. Not anymore. I was. I think you're most like Sok out of all of the Ntoff. You're a Taka child. That's really what you mean. Okay, I accept that. I'm okay with that.
I mean, let's be a little fair here. Just a little fair to Sokka. How old is he supposed to be here? Like 16, 17. And he's only hung out with his sister. So like, I don't like him. 15 or 16. Yeah. I'm going to beat him with a stick. Like he needs like a spray bottle. Like stop it. I love the Tai Laka. I love the Tai Laka. I'm in. I'm in on this. Let's see where it goes. I know we also love Tai Zula. Oh, Tai Zula is the end all be all. Oh, I did want to add. So like.
which I'm sure we'll get into later, but like the date with Lee and I forgot her name. We can scroll down in my notes to find Jen. Yeah, because my wife was like, he ends up marrying the goth girl, right? And I was like, you know what, Tanya? We don't know. And she's like, what? You know, it was really unclear. I don't know, babe. We'll find out.
I think we, so what did we, here's the real question. What did we ship back in the day? Which Sokka ship did we ship? Which Zuko ship? I still ship Mako. I'm like, Mae and Zuko are like. I think we shipped Mako. I think we did. Yeah. Probably most of us did. Yeah. i'm much less i'll wolf we'll see a book three but i feel much less passionate now about about the makeup no i feel even more passionate because they broke up like i'm like excuse me they need to get back together
That being said, Tailaka, I'm like, did this, is there more of, let's see what else, let's see what other Tailaka. Okay, yeah, we need that, we can, we can have a tracker for Tailaka. This is the second time from. Tizula walked so that Lumity could run. It's true, you're right. It's not even walked, it like crawled. It walked in certain people's minds. Like walked in dreams so that we can have Patradora and then we can have Lumity. That's what happened.
Yeah, Corasami, I mean, is really in there. Yeah, I mean, it's Corasami. And maybe this will sound bad, but Lumity's actually probably my favorite ship of all animation now. Oh, we love that, Ben. You know what? That's fine. I still think it's Katang and Coruscant, but Lumity is top five, so yeah, that's totally fine. The thing about Lumity, this is spoilers for the Owl House, that they date in the show, and it's just so much better.
Also, it's just so cute. Yes. Okay. Well, one thing I'll say, kind of tying it to our show we're talking about now is like... I like Korsami now more than I did on first watch back in the day. I still don't think it was... the best developed relationship but i completely like understand now if it was the limitations put on them but it was that relationship that made lumity happen a relationship that was just
So well-developed. They took their time. I'm glad we got that, but I'm like, man, how great could Kurosami have been if they were given that chance? Kurosami movie. Kurosami movie. Absolutely. I think we're getting a core movie, aren't we? Supposedly, if everything goes to plan.
Yeah, it's not it's not confirmed. So it's but that's one of the rumors for sure. So we will see. Yeah, we would love to see that. It's like Lumini is like if Avatar had a fourth season, like we kind of some of us wished and Aang Katara were dating in the fourth season. And that would have been cool. OK, last thing about sorry for bringing out house too much into this. We love it. Look, we love we love that. OK, some people listening are like, what's that? But that's that's fine.
one other thing I want to note Sokka at the end is like good effort team avatar and then they go through potential names oh yeah I forgot about this and I was like oh god I forgot about this too boomerang squad get it because it's got Aang in it I love that uh ang gang they say ang gang they do say ang gang which is fearsome foursome
So do they do that? Does this? So what is two questions I had? What is the show? What did the fandom call the team avatar? And I believe the answer is gang with two A's. Yes, that is correct. Which I guess is from Sock.
here he says ang gang he doesn't say gang but he says so i don't i think they kind of say the gang like not necessarily like two ways but like i also think generally in the show and i it also led into flora like we were team avatar right so i would say uh yeah i don't think so this is a bit of the fandom history part we called them the gang uh do it capital g
Two A's. I don't know if it needs to be a capital G, but it's a capital G. I did a lot of lowercase typing back in the day. Let me just say. I know you still do. It's extremely annoying. Except back in the day, you know, you do capitalize is XD. That's what you capitalize. I've typed Minion XD. Don't worry, guys. So we call them the gang. I think probably more casual Avatar fans call them Team Avatar. But I will. This is just we definitely called them the gang for the most part.
uh maybe after this episode i don't remember like what early avatar fandom fans called them i'm not sure um But yeah, maybe Team Avatar is more of the canonical name, I guess. But it is also you would also hear people call them Team Avatar. So it's not like it's. Yeah.
But that is a measure of someone being in the fandom. You call them the gang. And then another question I had, I think we already talked about this, but what do Avatar fans call themselves? What did we call ourselves? I don't know. Do we have a name? And I would say probably the answer, at least one answer was that. avatars was one thing. Oh, it's so bad. You get colors bad. I like acolytes these days now. Can I put that out there? Do people say acolytes?
No, I'm just putting that out there myself. I like that better. I don't know if we ever, like, I never remember being, like, sold anything. What did Korra fans call themselves? I don't remember. see my thing is like most granted to be fair this is also me most of i feel like with most of these like fans it's more of like who you ship so like you're a katanger or you're a zatarian
It's a good point. The tribalism among the ships was so strong that you almost more refer to yourself by your ship. I think that's true. And then, I mean, really in like. It was really just like Makora. It kind of continued into Korra because the Makorians were their own group. And then there's a lot of people that until Kurosami came around were kind of floating in either. Some of them were Bolin. Bullen and Korra, that was in early on, it was a big one.
But eventually it was, and book four Korra is definitely, you had the Macorians and the Korosomians. Avatar fandom, always big tribalism, unfortunately. I think that's mostly, it's like you're either, like you shipped Katang or you shipped... is tara and that's what i don't think people and now nowadays you hear people like oh i'm this bender i don't think we really called ourselves benders i don't think so no no
But we were talking about Team Avatar stuff, and what's funny about the drill is it's like when I think of them becoming quote-unquote Team Avatar, it's this episode I think about because this is really the first episode.
in my mind where i'm like okay they're all working together in a big fight like yeah you know this fight against the drill you know and they kind of work together then they kind of split apart join back together you know it's a lot of moving pieces but It is like that first moment, I think, of them really becoming that team.
It's a great point because in episodes like The Chase, they're all separated and fighting different components of Azula's team. Or the library. Toph is outside. Toph is outside. It's a great point, Ben, that it's kind of the first time they're all... still separated in the drill but it's all one big one big fight against the drill so i really like that
yeah and like a plan you know it's like okay you're gonna hold them up here we'll go inside and then qatar and top join back up to kind of do their water and earth together to plug up the drills so yeah I did like that aspect of the slurry is water plus earth. So, yeah, I think that's that's very cool. OK, anything else on the drill before we get back to Tales of Ba Sing Se? May being like, I'm not going in there.
Oh, yeah, that was great. That's great. May. May's like, no. I think May was always a favorite of mine. She's so funny.
it's funny because i do like i do sometimes have the tendencies of may where it's like we gotta do this and i'm like no i'm fine you know i'm good i'll stay i'm gonna stay here you have fun down there you guys want to go in this gross lake or something right like yeah i'll stay out here right yeah i'm gonna not do that thanks something like that yeah and then may pops out and she's like we lost like it's it's like that was good so good
There's a lot of great stuff in the draw. I know I kind of insulted, but it's still a great episode of the show for sure. Okay. Tales of Asing Se. Let's quickly go through the tales. We talked about a lot of them already. The Tale of Toph and Katara. I think the highlight is Toph says she doesn't have to worry about appearances. She knows who she is. Katara says, I think you're pretty anyway. Great moment. And then Delaney, okay. Toph, little blush, and then punches her.
It's like gay. Anything? Anything there? Obviously. I think, like, yes, absolutely. But actually, have you thought of it that way before? Did you think of it that way when you were watching it? Oh, absolutely. I was like, cute. And then, yeah, it's gay. They're gay. What was the Toph Katara? That was a ship. It was like a crack ship back in the day. Oh, right. It had like a dumb name, didn't it?
Katoff, I think. Katoff, yeah, it was Katoff. So that was a thing. I mean, people didn't really seriously ship it, but there are some fanfics probably. Delaney, I mean, do we want to, I mean, we don't need to spend, is this the burgeoning? At no point have I shipped Katow from a state. I mean, you ship Marinette. What'd you say? Marinette is kind of the same thing as Katow.
It is absolutely not the same thing. Marinette and Alia's relationship clearly is contentious. More important, more important. Okay, that's true. More important question. Is this the, is this the start of burgeoning queer feelings for Toph Delaney? It could be. It could be. It's a good analysis, right?
If we ever find out because this is totally something we mentioned this, I think, in previous by something Avatar Studios might do is say, actually, Toph was ended up being bi or so. And she was with a lot of women. Then they might try to extrapolate off.
certain and also i mean even without shipping and like romance involved i mean this is i mean this is the first time another girl has been nice to talk yeah true true like this is a big deal and like you know being treated as a girl and not like
Like, you know, one of the boys or whatever. And this is also important for Katara to hang out with, like, not... Aang and Sokka are stupid, as we've established in... As City Walls and Secrets extensively establishes. They were like, you're dumb, we're not dealing with you. And, you know, and they're, they're gross. So. Okay. Yeah, go ahead, Ben. Anything on this tale?
Well, I was going to say, like, you know, when I originally watched it, you know, I wouldn't have gotten anything of like, you know, like thinking tough punching guitar like that was like anything romantic, but, you know. Having rewatched Korra and now revisiting this, I'm like, well, you know.
There are things like that with Korrasami. It's true. They have symbol in Korra Book 4. Also, I do want to say this is a very important character for Toph that you can be a tomboy and then also be girly sometimes. Ginger is whatever you want to do. And I think this is... a big deal for Toph, and I liked it a lot. Definitely what they're going for here. Definitely. You don't have to pick. You can do whatever you want. You might prefer...
You might prefer to be this way most of the time, but, you know, every once in a while. Yeah. You know, like. Yeah. Quick, quick version of this analysis I had about because we've been tracking Katara's character. We're like. In book one, Katara is a lot of awesome, like moment, like very assertive moments where she's not in traditional female roles or feminine roles.
But she also has a lot of episodes where she's mostly just in a traditional feminine role in the show, supporting Aang or doing feminine things for the group and stuff. And to be clear, not a bad thing, just... It's more subversive, I guess, to have female characters that don't do those things. But book two, here's my analysis after seeing these group of episodes. I feel like Toph took that part of Katara. And in terms of like character breakup.
Because in book one, I feel like she had a lot more non-traditional female role things to do. And I feel like there's a lot less of them for her now in book two. And maybe it's because Toph exists and Toph is the one doing those things. I think a lot of it is they had... It's more establishing Toph's character. They have to make Katara react a certain way. And so like we have to have more of that like.
But then also in this episode, I do think, you know, Katara is like protecting like Katara is like, Hey, like, you know, she tells those girls off and then they like. you know bend them away and that kind of thing and um i will say i think this is kind of like a different side you know this is kind of like this kind of like guitarist sisterly like
She doesn't, you know, you know, yeah, maybe it's girly, but like she doesn't need to do this. So. Yeah, it's true. Even though she's more traditionally feminine, she's not like she gets to go to a spa or whatever either. And her and Toph have fun. When Toph scares the lady away, they're both like, that was hilarious.
yeah true i did like that but yeah anyway it's not just not just tales it's also a city of walls and secrets you know they're getting dressed up in there so i don't know it's on my mind here also immediately those yeah go ahead I was just like, yeah, we talked about like, you know, Qatar kind of feeling more the traditional like.
female just opposed to Toph in book two whereas once we get to book three especially like the latter half I feel like Katara swings back to you know you know we have the painted lady and Okay, that's a good point. I'll look forward to more stuff in book three, yeah, with Guitar. I think for now, by necessity of introducing Toph, and it's a good point by Delaina, yeah, she's had to fill more of a certain role in book three.
Um, certainly, uh, you know, I think there's still great guitar stuff. And to be fair, in like, uh, Serpent's Pass, she's, she and Anger fighting the monster in the drill. She's cutting down the thing with it. She still gets to do a lot of cool fighting stuff. It's just, there's very little, like, imprisoned, I feel like, in book two. She gets a lot less of this stuff. In book one, at the end, we said Katara was the MVP of the season. Top character MVP.
Certainly, I don't think she is going to be in contention for that book, too. You say that, but then she literally saves Aang's life. There's a lot of things we've got to get. Okay, that's good. Let's talk after the finale. There's a lot of things that happen between now and then, Dylan. You can't just immediately cut her out of MVP. We'll talk after the finale. It's a good point. There's a lot of season.
go. A lot of season to go. As of now, she's not in my top three. I was like, you can't just write her off like that. I won't write her off. As much as Top and Katara are bigger, Top immediately is like, Katara is smart enough. and hot enough to go with me and be like a girl you two are stupid and you're not coming with us i stan star the head bully i like that she got a name yes yes of course
I assume two R's. I should check the credit card. Oh, you're right. Oh, I definitely felt two R's. You're right. She's definitely a two R star. The Tale of Iroh. Why? Okay. First question. Why is the Tale of Iroh not last in the episode? Great question. Especially because it's like, it's like in honor of Mako. We get in honor of Mako, which they probably added very late to be fair. So it's not like they may have had time to move it. Yeah.
well the only other leads into appa's lost days oh momo they want momo to lead in appa's last days okay that's what i was gonna say i i think at best it should have been second to last You know, but it's not a huge thing. It's not a big deal. It's the only the only like in honor of card that I can remember not being at the end of an episode or movie. Like it's it's pretty interesting.
Okay, but yeah, I mean, the tale of Iroh, we haven't given it its due in this podcast. Incredibly iconic, as discussed earlier, part of Avatar. To tell the story, right, like Mako, Iroh's voice actor, died. After they recorded the initial dialogue for book two. But before the episodes aired and before, like, I assume before production completed, obviously before production completed on the show. So so they kind of my understanding is it's the Tale of Arrow was like written as.
is they just so happened to have this like rumination on death and emotional like, centerpiece for the Iroh character without knowing that Mako was going to die. And it was just the perfect thing to kind of turn into a tribute to him. And so they reacted to that and then added the card at the end, is my understanding, if that would have went.
It is kind of remarkable. It's kind of remarkable, Ben, that like Mako passed away and here's this just incredible performance by him. That's like about death and everything. I mean, it's almost too perfect. Honestly, one thing that it gives me vibes of is the musical Rent. One Song Glory. You know, thinking about... that song and how jonathan larson the writer composer rent died you know as the show was about to debut like it it's sort of a similar thing just very poignant like
Is that the Tick Tick Boom? Is that what that's about? Yeah, Tick Tick. That's about Jonathan Larson, the writer and composer. Nice. Yeah, you're right. That is kind of a similar story. Wow. Yeah. And I mean, yeah, I was voice actor Mako, like a legend in his space. And he was. Incredible. I mean, incredible as as as Iroh. And we get to see like one. The only I think the only scene of the season not voiced by him is this one Greg Baldwin is.
voice actor for book three, he does get one. I forgot about this. He does get one scene in the tale of Iroh, which I guess they... They decided to add that scene later on and ADR'd that, but Maka wasn't around then. Yeah, he did some ADR for additional parts of book two. Okay. Because there was... There was just a couple lines that weren't perfect. They needed some correction. So yeah, he had to come in and do that. after Mako's passing, and that's when he was given the role going forward.
Okay, yeah, so they needed someone for it. Yeah, so for those unfamiliar, so Avatar is a script-driven animated show. There's some of their board-driven. The voices, basically the order is they write the show, then they record the voices, then they animate it, and then they come back after they animate it in case...
anything changed with the rich of the voices that they plan to do they do adr voices after the fact so there's going to be like a whole year basically in between those initial voices and those later voices so yeah it's in that period that that maka would have passed away Yeah, and I actually had the honor of meeting Greg Baldwin two years ago. Nice. He signed an Iropop for me, and he was...
I'm getting a little off topic, but if anybody ever gets a chance to meet him, he is as gracious as anybody I've met celebrity-wise going to these conventions. Him and Dante Bosco were just a delight to me. Very nice. Ben, how did it feel watching The Tale of Iroh now? Do you remember what you thought of it originally as a big Iroh fan?
It, you know, it just still hits hard. Like, it hits hard in many ways. Like, you know, you normally see Iroh as being this, like, very, many times very joyous, happy man. you know takes pleasure in the simplest things like a great cup of tea you know game of pie show when you know internally he he internalizes a lot of pain in his life
You know, losing his son just really, you know, it's clear how it emotionally devastated him. And he's where he lost his son. Yeah, exactly. He's returned to what happened. So, you know, from that perspective, like you kind of just see like stripping the layers away and seeing a broken hearted father. in this moment and it doubly hits heart still knowing that this was one of the last things that Mako you know gave to the world before he passed away and it's
Even after all this time, the number of times I've seen it, it hits me. It hits me very hard. so yeah i think it's a beautiful scene on its own right and then add in the meta of being uh relating to mako and his death as well and puts it over the top of Definitely one of the most iconic scenes of Avatar. I think it's still excellent now. The part I forgot about was he's just like referencing his...
his scene with the kid earlier and in the tale of Iroh, um, in relation to his own son. So it's just the whole, the whole, uh, short I think is, is so, so incredibly done. Agreed. Yeah, but it's very simple. Just very simple. Very, very good. Yeah. And it's just beautiful. The last scene of the tree cut to the watercolor. Yeah. Very, really beautiful stuff.
On the other hand, the tale of Aang. So Aang relocates the animals to the, like we talked about. I think it was, okay, two things. One, he earthbends the whole enclosure. than their new enclosure. I like seeing him fruits of his earthbending. I think that's a good aspect of the show. I also like the utilization, like I said, of the Between the Rings. Oh, when he's fighting Azula?
And like my wife was like, oh, he can earth bend now. And I was like, yeah, you missed that part. Yeah, they they I will say they do a better job than Aang waterbending in season one. It really wasn't just Netflix. Aang didn't waterbend a ton. And yeah.
They've integrated it pretty well here in season two. The other thing I like about Tale of Aang, I mentioned last podcast I went on, so I won't repeat the whole thing about what Aang means to me, what he was a role model to me as a kid, but just the aspect of him. loving animals and caring about animals. I do feel like that.
pretty highlighted here in this tale. So I love that. And I feel like that was very influential on me. And just to kind of like reiterate, it's not like, it's not like I loved animals because of Vang. I loved them before, but there's just something to be said about having this role model when you're this.
type of age when we watched Avatar to, like, cement these sorts of, like, compassionate beliefs in you, like Aang's pacifism, his love of animals, doesn't eat animals, stuff like that, like, to cement it in... young boys like me, as opposed to... today's young kids who have these like grifter alt-right people to like that like having like an Aang I mean I just can't emphasize how important that is for people to grow up to be someone like me you know so I
I'm so fortunate. And that's the other aspect of Avatar being, like I said, probably one of the most watched TV shows in general the past 20 years. I'm so happy that so many kids get to see Aang, you know, as the main character of the show. That's maybe the most. And I hope today's kids are watching Avatar and looking up to Aang and not some of these other people, you know? I would name names, but I'll hold off. It should be apparent. I appreciate a tale of anger.
here i i think i used to hate on it i think it's solid i think it's it's fun it's a nice little showcase um tale of saka i think delaney talked about some some the haiku lines
I forgot all the girls laughing at Sokka, more to the man bleep that we talked about. The thing is, he's fed by them. The laughing girls laugh, and he's like, this is... like he's like i'm powerful and then like it's also just so funny that this like the like teacher just hates him it's so funny yeah it's kind of funny uh it's a little cringe like the the man bleep thing in a way but at the same time it's like
What 16-year-old boy wouldn't like, you know, having girls think he's cute and hit on and stuff? He is punished for his behavior, so that's also good. like that's the other thing like in addition to like he does this like he is constantly embarrassed and like punished it's true it's true it's true um it's not consequence free Yeah, no, like there are consequences to like the dumb things he does. Yeah. Tale of Zuko, Jin.
they go on the whole date uh the jinn goes to kiss him uh then he doesn't want to but then then i think that what they have a little kiss at the end yeah and then he flips out and he's like i'm gonna go it's complicated
yeah one thing i will say about like ang uh sock and you know i always liked zuko's tale but i like ang and saka's more now because i do appreciate and i mentioned earlier like this levity before we get to like momo's story and again you know maybe it does it doesn't go full gas pedal down with uh appa's lost days but really like after these things like the season just goes full throttle doesn't stop you know you know
yeah i'm sorry you get what i'm saying though it's like i appreciate these moments of levity more now because i'm like you really did need that you needed that it's very much like with ember island players in book three you know so you gotta have the levity before you get to the you know craziness that comes with the um i think some of these like we're still you know
we're still establishing like the lore of the show. Like the zoo episode is an important part of Ang's character. Like that he loves animals and he cares for them. And like, this is like, this is one of those, like, these are, these are all important.
character pieces for sure yeah uh zuka uh the part the aspect the real plot relevant part of the zuko tale i thought was how he's like reluctant uh to dive into this new life he's he's putting one foot in but he's not and this relates to the fact that he's not willing he can't commit at the end he can't get past his old life here so i think it's actually pretty important like what we showcase with zuko here here's a chance for normal
for his new life. I mean, I think it totally makes sense that... someone who looks like zuko at a tea shop a girl would be all over him and he like he can't even he can't commit to it even though he does he tries a little bit he can't get there in the end also it's really funny that he's like i think she's on to us and it's like she just thinks you're cute you idiot
So funny. He's never considered such a thing. There's no concept. I was struck with the tale of Zuko Delaney that this is like a self-insert ex-Zuko fic that a woman wrote. It's so different. Yes. Than anything else. We have to remember that, like, Zuko, like... grew up in like the most messed up family ever and then like also living in high society like he doesn't know how to interact with people like the only person he had to interact with was his was azula who like is probably a sociopath
How do you date when you hang out with your uncle? Like, what are you supposed to do? True. Ben, anything else on Tales of Zuko? And then he does fire, but he fire bins for a girl. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, not necessarily for tale of Zuko. Cause I, I think you all made it every point I was going to make, but.
Circling back to a moment for Sako, I just thought about this. It's more character development for 2 very subtly because he shows an interest in the poetry, the haiku. And I think it speaks to this... part of like you don't have to just be a warrior aspect you know yeah it's smart like he picks it up really quick yeah it's it's way more subtle than like
the other stuff even like the tale of ang but it is more character development to show that like he's not just this one thing you know uh so yeah true it's just something that just struck me just thinking about it so uh tale of momo we mentioned appa nightmare um chasing chasing the fake appas with the whole saga with the pumas dancing monkey uh i like the human like sims charlie brown talk
yes yeah that's hilarious the dancing monkey also great uh but he lets the pumas out uh you know he nuzzles with the with them yeah they're all friends now Oh, and he takes the Appa fur and places it in the Appa track. Yeah, they're like, this is where Appa was. And we had seen previously Appa landing here. Yeah, in this episode? No, I think it's in the desert. I think it's the desert. Or the episode after the library, which I think is the desert. You see that happen. Okay. Thank you.
You know, I think there's affecting parts to this. I think overall, the show, at the very least, I previously thought this, the show struggles with the animal storytelling. Like, I don't think Abba's Last Days is the strongest. We'll see again, see what I think of it now. I thought this was okay, but I do think the show, like, trying to make the...
the animal protagonist personifying it a little bit, but not a lot, no talking involved. I think there's, it's not, it's a strongest showcase of avatar storytelling. I will say it's unique in what they do. And I do want to say as a little personal anecdote, but also like, I guess kind of going back to like, you know, we're talking about impact and emotions. And so Ben and I are live the closest out of.
like the avatar group of friends like i've gone and visited dylan um ben and i met for the first time we both happened to go to the same avatar concert which was dope by the way it was super awesome and so like my wife had gone and um ben and his wife were there and we watch and i don't want to spoil the
the concert but like there's you know some so so there's some stuff that you see in the concert that i was like so i had an emotional reaction to and then so like basically um when the tale of arrow starts me and my wife were like oh great time to cry But we were not prepared for what so on Wednesday of this week, today's like Saturday, we had to put our dog down who was 15 and my wife's best friend and my wife had had her since she was 12. So like we've had this dog forever.
and we had we had to put her down and it's been really hard and my wife's like i'm finally done crying and then we're watching we're watching avatar and i had forgotten the tale of momo existed like i forgot this was a thing and the tale of momo starts and he's like immediately missing appa and me and my wife are like oh my god like we can't do this we also have a cat and our cat like so this is like this seems dumb but like
So I had been at work on Friday and my wife, my wife's off work, and she's like worried about the cat because my cat loves to eat. She's fat, loves to eat. she hadn't eaten all of her breakfast she was kind of acting weird my wife's like i'm worried about the cat like you know she misses the dog like we're like oh my god and then to watch momo miss off we're like this is the worst thing i've ever seen this is horrible like so like
It was, it was really emotional. And like, you know, it's funny how things like can hit differently and like, you know, how you react to them. And then also, I really, I mean, I really do think it's like, it is a unique episode. Like even now, 20 years later, to have.
this show and like to have an episode where it's like it's the animal companion and especially in a show like Avatar and Korra where the animal companion is very important. Like Momo and Appa are extremely important to Aang and the show.
and like to then experience it through momo and like you know there's funny stuff too but then of course and of course i mean this is a saga like we're talking about peak avatar we're talking about um you know passing say well but along the parallel of this story we also have
Mappa is missing. And this is really important. It has a lot of, like, I mean, this is really important for Aang's... um character and then also it's kind of a driving force like why they end up stranded and why it's so hard to do things because they don't have their flying bison So, like, and then, of course, we also, and then we get the flip side later at the end where, when Aang, you know, quote-unquote dies, and then Appa's like, oh my god! Like, there's a lot happening, and, like...
So I just really liked Momo. And also there were cats. Love cats. Little Puma, whatever, with two tails. that we're going to eat him and they became friends. And we kind of also have this, this is also kind of pegging backing off of the Aang episode. We have this like animal cruelty. Like I'm pretty sure this is, I mean, well, I think he was going to sell them to a butcher, but like.
oppo was taken by a circus and like yeah true different and that kind of thing these are great points i think the episode is is intentionally evoking things similar to that. So you sold me on this being one of the better ones. And you're right, it's unique. It's unique also just in Avatar, like an episode.
and really i think avatar kind of pioneered this like you know not necessarily a like a plot b plot but like you know shifting perspective of like oh so they're doing this over here well this is what's happening here yeah okay so it's obviously an episode we're not discussing on this podcast but we me and shannon did watch the next one ava's lost days and you know she actually teared up
She teared up with that episode, and I came to close as well. It's kind of funny how revisiting the show, certain moments, certain episodes... are hitting us differently than they did even five years ago, re-watching them now. I think that's what's great about revisiting a show like this or a movie you love that you maybe haven't seen in a while. It really is interesting to revisit and kind of does it hold up, but also...
what hits you emotionally now versus like, you know, I've seen, I've seen this shift in Dylan and me too. Like when you watch a show, you're like, Oh, like, what's happening? Get through the plot, the plot, the plot, the plot. And you're like, this is a filler episode, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And mine and Dylan's opinions on this have changed. Like, this perspective of that has completely changed.
I wouldn't call Alpha's Lost Days a filler episode, or even Tales of Austin say a filler episode. One, I don't really think there really are filler episodes. But like, that's, you know, this... you know this is i definitely appreciate more like what tales of passing say is contributing to the overall what is and what is office lost days doing like we're talking like and you know we're also in a show and what dylan was talking about what's important about the show like you know
you shouldn't just have empathy for people like you should you know to have empathy for all living things and then and to do it through oppa who is a very important character in avatar is very important to ang and like is a giant fluffy flying bison and is adorable like you know to go through this this is a good intro for next podcast when we actually get to the delaney's not gonna be on because i'm not watching off his last days because i don't want to yeah we'll see about that
I know. Dylan's going to bully me. My wife can't be home. I'm going to have to watch it by myself. I agree. She can't be home. Maybe in a little bit. We weren't ready for MOBO. We were like, oh my god. yeah i didn't consider that honestly um not the tale of momo's top of my mind but no i yeah this is a great this is a great discussion about okay any we can end on show recommendations but uh
Delaney, any last thoughts on these three episodes? Any other topics from them? I really feel like we kind of like hit them all. It was great. Good discussion. Yeah. I just really like, I really enjoyed watching them all. Avatar is just such a like comfy, despite the fact that it inflicts emotional pain on me. It's a very comfy show to watch. Ben, any last thoughts from the three episodes?
You know, again, it goes back to I appreciate more like, you know, we have the big high with the drill getting to Ba Sing Se finally. you know with obviously that continuing into city of walls and secrets but then having this like you know episode of these little stories that you know on first watch or like you know maybe it doesn't add a lot but When you think about it at an emotional level, they do hit hard. It did progress our characters forward. The last story did progress the story forward.
Whereas the first time you watch it, you're like, oh, what was the point of that episode? But then you really think about it's like, wow, it really, you know, we needed that, you know. You needed time for character development. You needed time for appreciating those little moments. Even something like Zuko going on a date. You wouldn't think it would mean a lot in the grander story, but... I think it really does in a lot of ways. Nice. Good stuff. I have two. Where is it?
I had two drill points I didn't bring up. Drill is the last Azula appearance before the finale. Is that true? She appears in... The Kyoshi show up, right? And they replaced the Kyoshi Warriors. Yeah, when is that? That might be the finale. I don't know if it's just that episode or if it leads up to it. Does Avatar Wiki have an appearance list for each character? Well, because I know she...
Again, this is the... Well, I kind of... Oh, she's in Appa's Last Days, briefly. Okay, yeah. You're right. Yes, and then I believe she shows up again in... Uh... Apparently she's in The Earth King and The Guru as well. Okay. Yes, yes. Earth King. That's when they show up as the... I was like, I'm pretty sure that happens before... Okay, okay.
My point was, you watch the drone and you're like, they don't really follow up on what happens to Azula after they don't get in. But they infiltrate in another way. We know they'll infiltrate, you know, so we'll get to it. And for some reason, I thought during the drill, it just really hit me Aang is male Nausicaa. For some reason, that really struck me. I don't know why.
but I also love Nausicaa yes we love Nausicaa okay speaking of other stuff let's end on recommendations for Ben slash an avid delaney an avatar fan who has not watched much modern animated shows let's do five let's alternate me and you let's give ben five recommendations So we're going to exclude the Owl House and Gravity Falls, which Ben says he's seen already. So I do think the Owl House and Gravity Falls would make this list.
This is specifically, Delaney, what an Avatar fan would like, not just the best animated shows. So I'll start. I think top of the list, shouldn't be surprising if you've heard me talk about this, Kipo and the Age of Wonder Beasts. on Netflix. It's a DreamWorks show. Three seasons. I kept saying while we're covering it, this is going for Avatar so much. It's very different. It's extremely heavily Avatar in class. It's like a found family adventure show with a lot of different locations.
post-apocalyptic yeah post-nuclear animals are warped but i highly it's it's a it's a short show it's excellent highly highly highly recommend keepo and the age of wonder beasts Okay, Delaney, what's your number two? Okay, and this is going to seem like, well, Delaney's heavily biased, but as a fan of Avatar, She-Ra and the Princesses of Power. Yes. I've seen a little bit of that.
So you got to finish it. Oh my God. Um, it's four seasons. It's, um, one, it's another show. Thank God Khorasami happened. We could have, um, She-Ra. And then also like, you know, we're talking about, you know.
found family friends we got to get the gang together we have all these powerful people for like all these different um uh nations and then also really um they kind of take the zuko redemption to the extreme like we kind like we have um like the two main characters it's like both it's like basically it's like a character left the fire nation
And then the other character becomes like the leader of the fire nation. Like it's like, it's really like, it's really like, they kind of take some things that happen in Avatar to its extreme. And then it's also. So it's fantasy, but it's also not just spoilable. Things get really weird and there's more sci-fi into it as well the further you go.
Also a DreamWorks show. I agree. Another adventure show, I think, also a good one for Avatar fans. It also kind of has this travelogue, especially in the first few seasons. It's very like feminist and stuff. So maybe some normies won't be into it. But in general, I think it's a good a good recommendation. OK, a little different number three on the list. I'll say Infinity Train on from Cartoon Network.
um less less of a classic adventure show but um it's more it changes every season uh but it's like a mystery on a set on a infinite train um and uh Just a lot of interesting kind of sci-fi, mostly fantasy stuff. It's more Korra than Avatar because the story changes every season. And it's also maybe Korra length as well. So I think if you and it's more mature. So I think if you like Korra, you would like.
infinity train and i won't i won't spoil anything but highly highly recommend infinity train okay delaney can you pull out another one we haven't mentioned well i mean this one it's just like a time commitment but like a natural um like when it's so it's like it's like a natural like you would want to watch this after watching avatar encore would be the new voltron we have oh i love voltron
Voltron Legendary Defender. Have you seen that? Yes, I've watched it in full, so that's a great show. Voltron's great. Half of the Cora crew went to work on Voltron. It's a natural. OK, I was I was wondering, I was like, I feel like you've watched it, but I wasn't sure. Another DreamWorks show. It's sci fi based on an old thing like Shira. So, yeah, I mean, I agree that has to go on any Avatar fans recommendation list.
I'll end then our number five. I'll say Steven Universe Delaney. Now, huge time commitment. Extreme time commitment. If you do like filler episodes from Avatar, that's half of the Steven Universe episode. Steven Universe is the show for you. Also, if you get into Steven Universe, you then have to watch Steven Universe Future.
I mean, I count it as the same thing, but yeah. And there's a movie. It's just one of the best fantasy shows we've talked about. Also Adventure Time, of course. And also it's like this continuing legacy of a character like Aang.
ang comes across in steven for sure it's great sci-fi but still very approachable fantasy sci-fi um it's it's all the other shows we recommended are easier to recommend for binges steven universe is and is like a harder one steven universe is like you have like it's it's it's just it yeah It just has to make any sense. Did you watch Voltron as it was coming out? Yeah, I largely watched it as it came out. Nice.
I do have two show recommendations. They're not really related to, they're not in the same vein as Korra, but these are two animated shows I love. Now, I will preface with one. I am very bad at Disney right now because of something they did to the show. But even that aside, it's still a great show to check out. Oh, is it? I was going to say, was it Moon Girl? As soon as you start talking, I was like, this is about Moon Girl. Yeah.
yeah the the controversy aside and yes i am very mad at disney it's still a great show if anybody hasn't checked it out yet please do so because it deserves some love um And then this one, it's better if you know the source material, but I really loved Scott Pilgrim Takes Off. Okay. Yeah, it's either the manga or the movie, or not the... the graphic novel i should say but it was a very well done animated show um so i i'd recommend those two again they're not in the vein of korra or avatar but
Those are two really good ones I've watched that I would throw out there. Oh, I do have a bonus. Here's my bonus. I don't know if you've seen it or not, but if you're a fan of Katang... and you know magical fantasy i have to recommend star versus the forces of evil which also like this is very like i mean we're talking about like he's like
you're like oh my god a little bit of a commitment but yeah you're right much more commitment like if you're a fan of katang and that kind of like love story and it is a little um i'm not gonna say contentious but like It's a little more obvious than Katang, I'd like to say.
like you know they go on adventures and like it also gets weird and not in like a bad way i mean like star does some really interesting things like story-wise and like the world of star is really interesting it is kind of also like kind of in steven universe you're kind of like what am i watching but um it's really good and it has like the finales of star kind of reach those like No, I don't want to, like, not to say that Star is, like...
It's hard to compare Star and Avatar, but it reaches the finale heights. It gets there. What I mean is stakes. I like that. Good big moments. We love Star. Good stuff in Star. It's like, wow. The finale of Star is wild. Wild. I've got some shows to check out then, and hopefully there wasn't a problem with me recommending those two shows, because I know the... No, good ones. Good ones.
Yeah, because as annoyed as I am about what happened with Moon Girl, like the show itself is just so good. And they touch on some very relevant themes that, you know. I want to watch it. It's on my list.
yeah like even though i can't fully relate to all like i just appreciate the impact like you know of them talking about these subjects and you know doing it in a way that i think is very approachable and that's how it should be you know yeah cool okay good stuff here also uh quick shout out young justice and hilda and amphibia turn that into a top 15 list okay there you go oh young justice you have to watch hilda
Hilda is a top one too. Avatar fans, start with Kipo and the Age of Wonder Beasts. Easiest recommendation. Just the easiest one. It's like no brainer. That's the one I'm starting with soon. Nice. It's so good. Yay. Okay, Ben can report back at some point. Also, if you're a listener and you're going to check out shows, let us know as well. Everything we talked about has podcasts associated. Yes, we have covered all of those shows. Just to be fair, give me a little time.
You're an adult who can't just binge stuff? Yes, it's true. I know, shocking. I know. Okay, that's it for The Drill, City, Walls, and Secrets, Tales of Plastics. Any last thoughts, Ben or Delaney? Good stuff. Yeah, we talked about it earlier. It's one of the peaks of the series. Everything about Ba Sing Se just like... It's very much a bullseye on the target for me. It all hits the right notes. Also, we're going to end on there is no war in Ba Sing Se, just so you know.
Okay. That's what we'll end on. Okay. But thank you. Great stuff. Thanks for being on, Ben. This is a lot of fun. Let me quickly find the... patreon uh patron support us on patreon patrons get the episodes a little early patreon.com slash overly animated thanks to our current patrons especially our patron podcast michael and thanks to our patron executive producers steve michael and phonician uh if you're listening in real time
Like I said in the beginning, these will be spaced out a little bit more, but two more to go for book two. Excited to get to the rest of Ba Sing Se. Thanks for listening, guys. We'll end on There's No War. in basing say one two three