Richard Linklater on Nouvelle Vague

You're listening to Front Row with me, Samira Ahmed. Welcome to Front Row, or should I say bienvenue. We start tonight in the world of French New Wave Cinema with director Richard Linklater. Also tonight, Horrid Henry author Francesca Simon is here to discuss why she's turned to writing for adults.

How Robbie Williams has overtaken the Beatles to the most ever UK number one albums, and The Daughters of Donbass, I talked to two Ukrainian women about a concert tour to raise awareness of the tens of thousands of children kidnapped by Russia. But first.

The black and white film, the style, the cigarette. The ironic detachment, the occasional angled pixie cut, this golden age of the 1950s and early 60s cinema in France has influenced so many filmmakers. It's when a new young generation of French writers and directors such as Francois Truffaut and Jean-Luc Godard created an energetic new cinema inspired by the new pop culture of adverts, film noir and jazz music.

Now the American director, Richard Linklater, has taken this aesthetic on with intense attention to detail. In his new film called Nouvelle Vague, we follow director Jean-Luc Godard as he makes his breakout work breathless, using the new lightweight cameras, shooting on the streets of Paris, without rules and sometimes without a script, making it up as they go along. また会いましょう Raúl.

A clip from Nouvelle Vague by Richard Linklater, whose previous films include School of Rock, Boyhood and the Before Sunrise trilogy. And I'm delighted to say Richard Linklater has taken time out from editing his next film to join us down the line from Austin in Texas. Thank you so much, Richard.

Oh, great to be here. Well, I mean, I've tried to give a summary of the Nouvelle Vague. How would you sum up what the French New Wave film was, what a film of that? Time. Wow. You know, it's probably as close as film ever got to punk rock in its immediacy, it's personal, it's kind of rebellion against the status quo. Film's a slow moving art form. It takes a year, it takes a long time to make a film. It's not as immediate as music.

But I think it's apt. You know, they were trying to out with the old, in with the new, a new sensibility, very y youthful. and uh irreverent, you know. So Um and it was happening all over the world. It was happening certainly in England, the US, everywhere. But the French kind of they sort of invented the Cinephile. They had all these magazines. A lot of the movie centers around the Cayuge cinema, the famous

magazine they all wrote for. And um they just had so many kind of great filmmakers who go down in history. There was such a concentration of talent. So I think uh Paris sort of wins the prize in the Nouvelle Bag. But it was really it was a worldwide phenomenon that was that was happening. But um Yeah, a exuberant time that that's still, even though it's half of cinema history ago, you know, sixty five or so years.

It's still very influential'cause I think it pointed away to a new kind of movie that was personal, not so much genre. A movie could be anything. It kind of lowered the stakes the way punk rock said, just make a song about what's pissing you off or what you know, something else. political whatever the movies kind of became that. So I think it's its influence is so big now that it Oh It's taken for granted, but it's kind of the prototype of the more indie spirited films, I guess.

This film Nouveau Vag feels like a loving homage to these filmmakers. I was astounded that there's a caption that comes up at the end that says a hundred and sixty two filmmakers made their debut feature in just three years in France at this time. How important have these films been to you? Have they shaped you? Oh very much. And I'm still discovering there were so many films.

uh period. Some go down in history, some are more famous than others. But there's there's so much quality work. I was fun being in Paris and kinda seeing some of these films that I I didn't know so well. You know, we all know the Truffaut, Godard, you know, the the top names, Romere and Oh you know, Chabrol and all all the usual suspects.

Th there's another layer and there's other parts of town. Like I said, we we were kind of around the Kayudu cinema, but other parts of town, the left bank, a little more political, you know, there's just, you know, Varda and Demi and um you know, uh

Very, very influential. Just love the love the spirit of the movies. And they really encourage you. They kinda say go do it. You know, like again, like in it it seems accessible. Like, hey, just they they shot the film uh to see the movie It's so humble to watch.

This classic movie being made'cause it looks almost like a student film. Well you should talk a bit about that, how you do it, because for people who've not seen the film and may not realize how Breathless Was made. You know, they they are shooting on the hoof on the street, they don't often have dialogue, sometimes they're hiding a camera in a trolley and covering it up with a blanket. Um how much of this were you finding out for the first time? Well, is it well documented?

It's it's extremely well documented. There was a l a lot of oh, just pictures, everything. So w we were working off a a template of facts, you know, and history. Um not only the film itself and other films, but just a ton of photos. You see the images being made in the movie. I give a lot of space to Ramon Castier, who took all these iconic photos, not just of Abu Dusouf, but the other films.

And kind of you can see the legends being born, kind of posed. You know, these guys had a real knack for promotion. Goddard's kind of a self- Mythologizer. You can see that kind of happening in front of our eyes. He's very quotable. He's very enigmatic. He's just such an unusual. a cinematic brain. And it and it it creates a lot of um

you know, difficulty I guess for those around him. But there's a cinema revolution going on here and I don't think anyone knew it except maybe one person. But it's kinda fun to watch. Well, I wonder how much time travel and be there. Of course. No, you absolutely recreate that place. Uh but I gotta ask, as an American who doesn't speak French, am I right? You've made it in French and that was obviously an important decision for you. Was it an intimidating world to take on as an American?

No, not at all. I I I just I knew I saw the finished film in my head. It was black and white. It I always told everybody, this is a film made in nineteen fifty nine. This is the film and this this is often this is attempted in films. It y kinda sorta doesn't work usually. But I really gave it hell. I wanted it to feel like I told everybody like This was a film made in fifty nine. It has the techniques, the looks, the feel, the sound of a film at that time.

And you know, maybe we discovered this film at an archive or in someone's attic. You know, I was really trying to make an artifact of the time that also of obviously expressed the the making of this one film, but kind of the spirit of the time. And uh Yeah, it was fun to go back to beginner's mind and make what I felt like Yeah, I was in my late twenties again making my first film. You know, that's how this film meant and it w how it felt.

Tell me a bit about that, because I was thinking about when I was watching Nouvelle Vague, the sense of them making it up as they go along filming on the street, these young unknowns. Thinking back to your first films like, you know, Slacker and Dazed and Confused. Did you see the parallels? Oh yeah, you work off your own uh your own past. And I I could I could relate, you know, making a film where you have to communicate your ideas to to others.

And especially if you don't have a conventional script and you're trying to do something different, it's hard to describe. You have to kind of weave a spell over everybody you're working with and find them. You have to be a little bit of a a little local cult leader on this one project, you know, that's kind of incumbent on a director to

i uh create some belief around yourself. Well one of the interesting things about creating belief is you're shooting on the streets of Paris today and yet you somehow manage to do something to make it look like nineteen fifty nine. Is that is that the magic of modern technology? This film the the film I made was made in a style one hundred and eighty degrees different from the way they made their film. They could show up without permits and just shoot and s hide a camera. Obviously

the pe that Paris is long gone, so we have to create everything. Everything has to I mean, Paris is pretty well preserved, but the first floor, the street level is commercial and very different. So The film Nuva Vag is it's a bit of a visual trick on so many levels, but I don't want it to feel that way. I want it to feel like you just you know. It was shot spontaneously. So it's it's a bit of a tonal and visual trick we're we're trying to pull off.

But uh, you know, that that was the f that was the fun of it. The costs are uncanny and how well they match the real life counterparts. So Zoe Deutsch is uh uh Jean Seaberg, the American actress who starred in A Boud de Souffle. Your own discovery appropriately enough is the breakout talent of Jean Paul Belmondo, I gather, that young actor. How did they feel about playing these icons of world cinema? Well, you know, I I think it could be a burden.

for everybody, but I just really tried to eliminate that. You know, we were like, Oh, these are just nobodies, you know. I'm talking to Belmondo. You're not playing an icon. You're playing a guy who's an actor, but he's a boxer and he's just a fun guy to be around. You know. Jean Seaburg's really the only professional and she's kind of

Uh, you know, suffering from her PTSD or two American studio films. So she's bravely putting herself out there for this little French film that she just kind of stumbles upon by proximity. She's married to a French man and she's kind of finds herself. amongst the French New Wave. And then, you know, Godards and Unknown. I was telling the whole

Cast and crew. He's a nobody. He's a writer for Cayute Cinema who's made some shorts. You don't even know if he knows what he's doing. You're just along for the ride. But you know, it's amazing a film like this did get made, that that stat at the end, 162 films. What's amazing about that, I mean, thousands of films get made every year now, but they're very independent. Those films are made within the French commercial cinema system.

So there's a producer around, there's just enough money to make it. So it's a pretty professional Industry

They're they're in but they're doing it on the cheap because they don't have a budget really. Well, watching that capture cover, I thought so much of you because there's a scene when Goddard roughs up his producer for interfering with his creative process.

And the last time you and I spoke was about your wonderful film Hitman, which you said you'd struggle to get a big studio interested in. And not that anyone's advocating violence, but did you feel you were kind of born in the wrong era? If only you could have been You know, in in Paris in fifty nine. Um Yes, that to th th I do want people to think like, Oh, what a what a good place to, you know, be starting out. But

You know, I I was born at the absolute right time for for what I'm doing now. The nineties was a great era, but that era's over. Yeah, yeah. And I'm kind of on fumes. I guess I don't know. I'm still getting to if I can keep my budgets low enough and Get some stars I can still kinda do what I'm uh love to do.

got a couple of Oscar nominations, Blue Moon, you know, Hitman was a huge hit, this one's just come out and you're editing another. It feels like you're you're on a roll, what's going on? What's the creative juices are at their maximum. Um I you know, I've I've felt in a good niche for a long time actually. Um it's just nice when it I don't wait around for funding if I can get uh the pr productions going. I don't know. I'm I'm

I'm happy to uh I always have a lot of projects. I've always been like that. I'm always writing and doing stuff. So um yeah, it's it it's funny that two films came out this year that I shot last year. are And both period pieces. And and they're both yeah, they're both they're they're they're cousins to each other. Certainly they're in conversation with each other. One's about the beginning of a career.

you know, Nouveau Vogue and one's about the end the sad end of a career. So but there are about life and the art. Yeah. But also I was thinking is there something full circle about an American filmmaker making a film about the Nouvelle Vague which we loved American cinema itself? Well yes. That film is kind of an homage to cheap, you know, American gangster films, like a a French cinephile who's in love with kind of genre.

poverty row kind of America oh they love all American films but particularly these kind of crime thrillers so it's It's that filtered through kind of a French end of the 50s, I would have to imagine existentialist philosophy, modern post-World War II. Um

kind of consciousness, cinematic consciousness. And then I guess you could see New Will Vaug as processing not just this one film, but that entire If it's a genre, a nouveau vague, I don't know, it's probably not a genre, but it's a it's it's, you know, I guess something recognizable. filtered through an American consciousness. Like I always saw this movie as a subtitled that I could even though I don't really speak French, or only embarrassingly so

the sound of it, the French language was the soundtrack in a certain way. So I definitely won't you asked earlier if I felt intimidated. No, I was making a subtitle English subtitled movie. that sounded the way this movie sounds and with the score and the music I used and you know, that was just it was kinda what it looked and sounded like. So it's definitely my homage. to w how I process and I feel the rest of the world.

Now it seems that not a week goes by without another celebrity attempting to write a children's book. This weekend came the news that actor and comedian Rob Bryden would be the latest. So could this be one reason why we're seeing children's authors turning to adult fiction? Certainly there seems to be a trend in the last year or so with writers, including Jacqueline Wilson, of Tracy Beaker fame, making their first forays into novels for adults.

I'm joined now by two more authors following this path. Francesca Simon's Horrid Henry series has sold more than twenty five million copies in twenty seven languages. She joins me now in the studio, and on the line from Hebden Bridge is Liz Flanagan, author of the Wildsmith series of children's books, who's now written a historical novel for adults.

When we were divided, set during the Civil War in her native Yorkshire. Welcome to you both. Francesca first, you're one of the most successful children's authors out there. Salka is a a love story drawing on Welsh

mythology. What prompted this bold departure to write a novel for adults? Well, an accident, really, which was that I wrote a cantata with the composer Gavin Higgins for The Aubra Music Festival and Three Choirs and I was telling my editor at Faber about this cantata that we'd done and she said, Would you write it as a novella?

So um I accepted even though I didn't know how on earth I was going to do it. So it was very accidental as is so much of what I write. And it fits very nicely into the modern world of adult fiction where there is so much interest in mythology of different kinds. So it absolutely

comes completely naturally into into the world. What about for you, Liz? What prompted you to write when we were divided? Thank you. Yeah, I feel like my answer is a little bit more pragmatic. It was back in twenty twenty and um You know, my latest children's book had come out in the pandemic when bookshops were closed, uh its sales were disappointing, and I was just thinking, what do I do next?

And at that time I was trudging up the steep hill behind my house in Hebden Bridge and remembered there'd been a battle there. So I had the idea for the story and then I found out that this a wonderful grant from the Arts Council for creatives of all kinds. If you're ready

to do something new, something different, then you can have funding to kind of see you through that new direction. And I was so grateful to receive some of that funding which allowed me to try something that Francesca, was there anything from writing the Horrid Henry books, these very irreverent, very funny books for young children, that helped in the process of Salker, or is it just a completely different discipline?

I think it's quite different. I mean, I'm still me. Um I'm good at dialogue, I think. And I wrote Salka with fifteen different voices. So I think I was able to bring, you know, that ability to listen to characters. um and bring that um to this book. Right. What about Few Liz? Pardon? No, sorry, it was the same question to you. Yeah, I do think that there there are similarities in terms of, you know, the landscape and, you know, character always comes first for me.

Mae'n ymwneud â'r ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud.

And I was thinking back to what's often talked about as a golden age of children's fiction in the sixties and seventies, you know, writers such as Geoffrey Trees, Rosemary Sutcliffe, many of whom were writing historical fiction. I think by modern standards, those books read more like books that are called adult novels. And I wonder how far modern distinctions of children's, YA and adult matter still or are important for you?

Well, they're always changing. I think I was one of those children who read those books and you're right, we wouldn't put that in front of a child of the same age anymore. And those age categories, they're marketing categories and they are quite useful, but they're fluid as well. So they change all the time. If you go into bookshops or libraries, you can see that evidence.

Um to me not very much because I tend to start with a subject, an idea and I write the book and then I think who is this for? But I was thinking about this question. I mean, when I was fourteen I read Pride and Prejudice and Crime and Punishment. Does that mean those are YA novels? No. I think that they're novels that have teens as their part of their audience. I I think it's much more fluid. I mean I enjoy all kinds of books.

Yeah, but you've also identified another issue, which well let's bring it up now, is there is a crisis in reading generally, but particularly a crisis in children over the age of ten reading for pleasure. That's why the government's backed this year of reading campaign. I wonder what your thoughts are about that challenge.

Well I I feel so strongly about this that we really need to work together to do as much as we can to get children reading and getting to show there are so many different kinds of books. and to take away um any residual snobbery that is still there around, you know, what makes a good book for children and to include things like audiobooks and graphic novels and um

Yeah, I think we can all work together really, really well to to do that in the year ahead, Francesca. Yeah, I think it's really important also that adults read. I mean that your children see you reading. And that also that we be very inclusive about what counts as reading. I mean, I someone who absolutely loved comic books.

I think that children should be encouraged to read about any subject that interests them. Um and I also think funny books for kids are really, really important. Interesting. And libraries.

Well, another author who's just written her first book for adults, having made her name in children's fiction, is Katia Balin. And I should say she was due to join us tonight, but she had a baby over the weekend, so congratulations to you, Katia. And she still made time earlier today to talk to us about the advantages of making her leap into new literary fiction. This is um about her book Our Numbered Bones.

I think I could be more visceral with some of the um emotional issues. Um I could be more explicit. I could swear, which I quite enjoy doing. And so I suppose yes, just that slightly more grown up edge. But I would still put all of these things in a children's book. I would just you know, approach it through a different prism.

Um, and I think that children generally appreciate the same honesty in writing that adults do. I I was still sticking quite closely to the the kind of big ideas, you know, these universal things that tie us all together, like grief and heartbreak and love. um that I use in my children's books. And I was obviously able to approach it in a in a different way because, you know, when I write for children I I write for children and I owe it to them to make things accessible and understandable.

So there was a shift. in the way that I addressed some of those themes, but I was still writing along lines that I felt quite comfortable doing. Katia Balin talking about her new novel Our Numbered Bones. I should say we spoke to Jamila Gavin on front row last week and

She w said that there isn't a topic she would avoid when writing for children. It's more a question of how you write about certain topics. I wonder if you both agree, or was it liberating writing for adults? You want to go first, Liz? Yeah, I I do agree. I think it's all about how you deal with it. Although when I came to write this book, I did discover there was something I could do with it. And that was to write about motherhood.

You'd never do that in a children's book because it has to be focused on the child's experience and from their perspective. Because I almost wrote it as YA, but then I thought, no, I really want to write about this moment in a mother's life when a child leaves home. Um, so but otherwise I do agree, yeah, all subjects can be covered by kids' books. Such an interesting example, motherhood f uh is different if you're writing for an adult.

Francesca what about for you? I mean in Salka I'm ri I'm really writing about a very, very passionate boundary breaking relationship in a way that it probably you know, you just wouldn't write a children's book like that. They wouldn't be interested. Um, but I still am bringing writing about magic

and about what it means to be an outsider. And these are all themes that you can cover in a children's book. I don't really I I mean this very genuinely that when I write my books for children, I am not thinking. I am writing for a child. Therefore I will watch

presence of celebrity children's writing has devalued the market at all. I mean it depends if if someone is well known in one area, like let's say someone like I don't know, Graham Norris. who has written many novels, but he is also a writer and there are lots of people who are actors who are also writers and I would make a distinction between people who actually write their own books. versus people who have ghostwritten books in their souls.

uh like you would sell perfume or bedding and that I really I resent very deeply. Yeah, what about it? I wonder if it affects how you feel about it. I completely agree with Francesca. Um I think there are so many wonderful hard-working children's authors out there who are doing school visits and honing their craft over years and working so hard and not getting the recognition and the marketing budget that... a celebrity might get.

Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl That's honest of you. And Francesca, I'm struck by, you know, you like Liz, you're a big fish in a big pond as a children's author. Is it nerve wracking entering the very crowded arena of fiction for adults?

Um, a little bit. It was but I so wanted to write this story and I knew it had to be a story for adults, so I probably didn't really worry about it. I was excited about it, but you know, I've written an opera, I've written libretti, I I loved it sort of expanding what I write. I don't see this as a progression like I was wearing water wings and now suddenly I'm out of the paddling pool and into the Olympic pool. To me it's just almost like concentric circles. I'm just expanding what I write.

So for me it's exciting to try something new. That doesn't mean that my next book won't be a children's book. It depends what idea I have. What about for you, Liz? I was thinking also, I mean, have you been writing books long enough that some of your child readers would be Grown up by now.

Oh, I hadn't even thought of that. But yeah, you might be right. Um, I am a bit nervous and also really excited, especially about doing events. You know, I won't be facing a room full of two hundred school children. I'll be going into a bookshop and maybe meeting

fifty adults and what will that be like? I'm I'm really looking forward to it. But I will also be going back to kids' books afterwards. You will. Well the other thing I wondered is you know, everyone talks these days about romanticy and I wonder if this

huge growth in that market is an example of the books industry trying to appeal to both young adult readers and adults. What do you think, Liz? Yeah, there is this huge crossover um area and it's really blurred. But as you say, uh readers are getting older all the time. I also love that the industry surprises us all the time. We didn't see this coming ten years ago and I love that things are always changing.

Does Sulka count as romanticy actually? No in Jessica. It doesn't at all. Um which is funny because someone uh once wrote a review of uh um criticizing it for not being a romanticy novel. I thought, well, it's not a science fiction novel either. Um No, it isn't. I mean it's using uh a myth to talk about kind of modern themes. It it's more fairy tale, more myth

Uh no, definitely not romantic. Excellent. Francesca Simon, Liz Flanagan, thank you. It's been lovely talking to you both. Francesca's book, Salka, is out now, and Liz's book, which you can pre order when we were divided, is out next month.

Now one of the horrors of the Russian invasion of Ukraine has been the mass abduction of thousands of Ukrainian children. They've been separated from their families, taken to camps to re educate them into Russian children, adopted by Russian families. Only a thousand or so have been rescued.

Daughters of Donbass is a musical project featuring an ensemble of female Ukrainian musicians and singers who want to draw the world's attention to the plight of the missing Ukrainian children. The Daughters of Donbass are playing concerts globally and are currently touring the UK. Earlier today I spoke to two members, Liza, who escaped herself from such a camp, and the musician and singer Marichka, who's also a former journalist.

I asked Marichka first how many Ukrainian children have been kidnapped by Russia. By official uh information it's twenty thousand. But uh also another official information from Russian sites is over seven hundred thousand children. And can you just remind us why this has been happening and what's happened to those children? Well, Russia invaded Ukraine and wants to take uh our identity.

away from us, he wants to erase our nation and our existence in the world. S that is how it started in twenty fourteen actually. It's not one full scale invasion happening two thousand twenty two. And they all plan all these horrible things including stealing Ukrainian kids. What do we know about what's been happening to children taken in this way by the Russians? They taken away from their p uh original family.

They are raised like Russians in Russian families. It happened to me as I stood in line uh to the deportation because one day when it was in occupation just some soldiers come to our homes I say that we go into clean the area and destroy everything, you're supposed to run away.

uh we go to the deportation line, it was on a border in the city, and they just basically took the children and uh put in them in a bus without the parents. They wasn't searching for their parents they took me and I saw my mother was held in by

two or three soldiers with an armor and she was crying and started begging to bring her daughter back and s they said they gonna kill her. But uh thanks to God I managed to run to my mom and they basically just dropped us in a random bus and drive to filtration camp. they very casually was separating family from each other like uh Father from their children and uh partners they separate in in a different bus and they just randomly drop people like um like not a people.

Richka, tell me more about the Daughters of Donbass project. So the idea I came to Daniel Rosenberg, a grammar nominated producer from uh Toronto, from Canada. He was so moved by the fact of all like amount of uh Ukrainian stolen children and he decided to create a m musical project So I was invited to be a part of this project and we became like a co producers together. So I'm making music, making songs.

And um now we traveling around the world telling the story of stolen kids through the music and we invited local musicians to play with us and bring them also through the music to the story. So Lisa, tell me about your role in these concerts. What do you do? My role is to be the voice of those who is not able to say for themselves anymore.

so many victims is still quiet because they want us to be quiet. And uh when I was in Russia and in filtration camps when I was starting to explain in my story, everyone was acting like, Oh, don't bother me with that. And I want the world to not turn around of the situation that the war is not something that you can basically forget or clean like a n nightmare. And my role also particular is uh I'm singing with Marichka and also play an uh Ocarina. It's a folk instrument.

Marichka, rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud. We taking um original traditional Ukrainian songs because I'm in um initially an ethnomusicologist who collected this song in the villages in Ukraine. So I have a lot uh that already telling the story what Ukrainians live through like back in the history and it's kind of they feel the same emotions like mother losing her kids or her loved ones.

And uh another part I'm writing my own songs based on uh my lyrics or lyrics of famous Ukrainian poet Yorko Izdrik, that very very connected, very related to the stories. instrument. How important is that as part of the experience? They're traditional instruments as well as songs. I think uh to connect to our audience through the music, through their sound o for our chesters is well very, very important. It's why we're using a folk voice and a pop voice.

And it's it's what we do and because this is the best way to connect from heart to heart, from emotion to emotion. I know that you're singing in Ukrainian. I suppose someone might ask Byddwch chi'n gynnyddo'n gynnyddo'n gynnyddo'n gynnyddo'n gynnyddo'n gynnyddo'n gynnyddo'n gynnyddo? We have uh l English choruses and we have a video in our background with this translation uh to um to English, but I don't feel this is necessary because story with Allen is in English.

And when we sing in songs it doesn't need any translation. Yeah. Um Lisa, what's been your experience of performances so far? What do the audiences do when they see your performance? I really liked to g giving concerts and telling my stories when I see the people reflection and their faces and their eyes how they Feeling this because In my mind, I was thinking that it's all

gone everyone is not uh bothering with the stories but it's not everyone is feeling it. It's very interesting for me to realize it. And most of the people don't know their details, don't know the stories and what the children are going through.

it's very, very m moving. It's very, very deep and it's human story. And it's very moving to be on stage with Lisa because we we for now we're not able to take her everywhere because of like visas issues and everything. But it's it's very different when not me telling the story of the stolen kids, but Lisa talking about her personal experience.

I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about what the music scene is like now in Ukraine. Um have singers stopped singing in Russian for example, do they s tend to sing only in Ukrainian now? Yes, yes, for sure. n nothing related to Russian language. Lots of people like Russian speaking. people uh switch their like usual normal daily language to Ukrainian.

And like nobody's singing in Russian, nobody is going to perform in Russia or like for Russians. It's uh like we have to be very, very protective. for our language. My thanks to Marichka and Lisa from Daughters of Donbass. Now they were live in session on Len Penny's show on Radio Scotland this afternoon, so you can catch that on BBC Sounds if you want to hear more of what they sound like. And they also have dates Coming up in London, Glasgow, Edinburgh and St Andrews for the rest of this week.

Rocket by Robbie Williams, the opening track of his latest solo album, Brit Pop. He broke chart records on Friday, surpassing the Beatles no less to become the artist. with the most number one albums in UK chart history, according to the official charts company, sixteen to the Beatles fifteen. The music economist Will Page has been crunching the numbers and joins me now. Welcome, Will.

Can you remind me first of all, how do we measure number one albums now compared to in The Beatles Day? Well it was a heck of a lot easier in The Beatles Day because you purchase something, you purchased an album and those who sold the most albums got to number one.

Now we have this multi format of albums and streams, so we convert streams into the value of an album. One thousand streams, roughly speaking, equals to the value of an album. I call it fax equivalent emails because we're converting the future into the past for the time. That's the current metric. It's confusing and it confuses the consumer, but that's how it's done. Right. How significant is Robbie's achievement here?

It's pretty big. Um we look at it's what he's achieved there, getting to number one. But it's interesting in how he did it. When I saw the BBC headline this morning and uh immediately dug into it for your audience's benefit, the way he did it was ninety six percent of those M met metrics which m got into number one were physical sales, two percent were downloads and two percent were streams. Really? That's baffling.

That must be vinyl and it reminds me of my favourite stat about vinyl Smira, which is that fifty five percent of British vinyl buyers don't own a record player. So I'm not sure how many people are listening to the album, but they're buying it. They're buying it as a souvenir. So th so th that bucks all the trends, does it, for when an album gets to number one, it's not normally because of physical sales. It's almost like the inverse.

Right. Well one of the other things that interests me and you've talked about this before on front row is people talk about the death of the album. Artists talk about it all the time in the era of streaming individual songs and catalogues. Is it just because in Robbie Williams' case he's obviously sold physical content, but other number one albums, presumably they're measuring it on on streaming more?

Yeah, they are. And and of course with streaming you might only be listening to the killer songs and not the filler songs. So are you appreciating the album like it's a true body of work? That gets lost in the streaming age. But we had that back in the age of the Beatles as you mentioned earlier.

Do they measure an album sale on streaming by like over fifty percent of the album was listened to? They do apply in Britain at least we apply those little tricks of making sure it can't be a one hit wonder album. So in this case, you know, that's been controlled for. But uh yeah, it does get confusing and to stress, you know, I'm not sure how much attention the kids pay to the n to the charts these days. I was always taught that the reason that you have charts was to make the popular visible.

and the visible more popular. That's a great way of thinking about why we have charts. I'm not sure the new generation coming through is that bothered about who's number one. Well speaking about generations, who is listening to Robbie Williams? What are the demographics of who's buying all these albums? Uh more female than you might imagine, seventy percent female, and younger than you might imagine, which is

twenty to thirty four. Um that might be because Robbie Williams' music is always used in film, rom coms. How often do you see angels in rom coms in the film better now? And funerals. And funerals as well. As well. Uh people are dying to get that one in.

Um but yeah, so you know, it's interesting that sort of that twenty to thirty-four age bucket is his number one. Now why that's relevant is because if you're thirty four You were not born when take that debuted with a only takes a minute car, which makes me at least feel very, very old. Yeah, well I can remember covering the f time to take that broke up and that felt like a um not that long ago but so what does this enduring success reveal? What's what's

the secret to how he markets himself, how his music falls into or out of category? I think it's three things. Two are obvious to your audience, one less so. I think firstly um the fact that he's got a great body of work. If you take his top three songs, which is Angels, feel and rock DJ, that only makes up a third of his streams. For most artists that would be ninety, ninety-five percent of the businesses in our top three songs.

just a third of his streams comes from those three songs. So he's got a strong body of work and that's all credit to Robbie and especially Guy Chambers, the the the masterful songwriter behind these head. Secondly, he's global. You know, he for a British audience, of course, Robbie Williams is a national institution, but he's even bigger in Mexico than he is in Britain. That blew me away when I learnt that.

I think the third thing with Robbie though is he stays in his lane. Tell me about this. I'm fascinated. So I think it's a really important thing in the age of streaming, which is if I use a very British term cheeky cheppy That's who he was in nineteen ninety two. For those who are thirty four or younger, you might have not been there at the time. Um, that's who he is today. He's the same Robbie Williams. He stayed in that cheeky chappy lane. Artists who do that.

have a sort of compounded effect on those streams. Their parents pass it on to their children, their grandparents pass it down to their parents. Look at the Oasis tour last year. There was three generations going to the same concert in many cases. Um you know Oasis is another example, M M is another example. Artists who leave their lane I'll pick up a few high profile examples, Lady Garga doing Tony Bennett cheek to cheek. Um Justin uh Timberlake doing the troll soundtrack.

they tend to lose their audience on their way. So I think the secret to the success is it's the same Robbie Williams that we knew and loved nineteen ninety two, thirty four years ago, that we know and love today. That wasn't true of the Beatles, incidentally. Well, there are exceptions to the rule. But the Beatles are pretty exceptional. Um, and is it a good record, do you think?

I think it's good. Um I was looking at the track list. I mean that track rocket uh has Tony Young on drums from Black Sabbath. Um uh Desire uh is named as the FIFA soundtrack, so that'll be interesting for this summer. And there's also a track in there called It's Okay When the Drugs Stop Working. Which I thought twenty five years ago Richard Ashcroft said the drugs don't work and now Robbie Williams is saying it's okay when the drugs stop working. What have we learned?

Will Page, thank you so much. Always lovely to have you on front row. On the programme tomorrow, Michael Sheen on his new production of Our Town in Swansea. Join me again at seven fifteen.

Thanks for listening to Front Row. I'm Samira Ahmid and the producer was Harry Graham. The production coordinator was Lizzie Harris and our studio managers were Charlie Berenger and Tim Heffer. And if you enjoyed this programme you can discover lots more radio, things like the harpoon amongst Other programmes on BBC Sounds.