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Catholic cardinals from across the globe are sequestered away from the world in Rome this week, where they will ultimately select the next pope. When Pope Francis died in late April, he left a fairly liberal legacy behind. He took the church in new directions on climate change and homosexuality. But that is not a direction or a style that was universally loved by the clergy.
Frances also appointed about 80% of the current College of Cardinals, members from places like Africa and Asia than ever before. They bring different... perspectives, and priorities. And since these are the guys who will be picking the new Pope, there are a lot of different ways that this could go. I am here today with Charles Collins. He worked for Vatican Radio for 16 years. That's the official radio station of the Catholic Church at the Vatican.
He's now the managing editor of The Crux, which is an independent publication that covers the Catholic Church. He's had front row seats for the last two papal conclifts. Charles, hi. Thanks so much for coming onto the show. Thanks for having me. So you and I are speaking at around 8 p.m. Rome time on Wednesday, the first evening of the conclave. And just what is happening right now?
Right now, hopefully, the cardinals are voting on who they want to be, the next pope, and those votes are being counted. Of course, the room is closed, so we don't know for sure what's happening. And there's more cardinals voting now than have ever voted for such a thing. before uh there's 133 of them in there and only 25 of them have ever been in a conclave before
So no one knows exactly how long this process will take for them. In general, I would have expected the smoke to have risen by now but again it's it's sort of a new experience because a lot of these guys and there's a lot of them are doing it for the first time Just before we keep going, explain the smoke to me for someone who might not be familiar. They have a furnace put into the Sistine Chapel and all the cardinals write down who they think should be Pope. Then those are counted.
And if a two-thirds majority happens, that person is asked if he wants to be Pope. AND THEN THEY They take all of those things these guys filled out and they put them in a furnace and they set them on fire and it goes up into the air. And they made a tradition.
years upon years ago that if they didn't get proper pope then it goes out black and it's black smoke it means there's no pope and if it's white smoke it means there is a pope you mentioned that there are so many new cardinals this time around and why why is Pope Francis liked to make cardinals. He'd do it every year. He wanted to expand the cardinals to other countries which did not traditionally have cardinals.
They've been using cardinals to vote for popes for almost a thousand years. And generally speaking, historically, most of these cardinals were from Italy and this goes into a hundred years ago most of them were from Italy and they started becoming more international really 70 years ago it really started happening and even that was a little bit. And it wasn't until Pope John Paul II started really expanding.
the College of Cardinals that you started seeing many coming from Africa, from Asia. Now, when Pope John Paul II died, it was the first time these people not from Europe arrived and let's just say they felt a little bit excluded from the process and i heard many cardinals i worked at the vatican at the time interviewed a lot of cardinals and the ones from africa and from asia and even from Latin America,
They did not like the way they were excluded because people were holding dinners and they were holding all of these meetings before the conclave and they realized they weren't being invited to these meetings. And they were kind of irked, I will say. Then with Pope Francis, That also, that election was very European-centered, although by picking a non-European, it did garner a lot of support from those cardinals from outside of Europe.
This present conclave, they have said it. These cardinals, especially from Africa and Asia, are saying we will not be ignored. And that's what is most interesting about... this conclave is the issues facing the church in the developing world which are different than the issues facing in Europe and in North America are going to play a role in the election of the new pub. Well, tell me more about that. You know, when they say we will not be ignored, ignored on what?
I'm an American who lived in Italy for nearly 17 years and now live in England. And frankly, when you say a progressive or liberal church, you think of gay marriage, you think of women priests, women deacons. you think about having contraception and things like that. If you say conservative, well, you think the exact opposite of all those things, but also you talk a lot about the Latin math. immigration laws and things like that.
And when we talk about persecuted, Catholics and persecuted Christians in England or in America or in Canada usually It's free speech issues. Right. I mean, frankly, that's what it is. And I'm not saying these aren't important issues. They are important issues that are being discussed. But if you go to Nigeria, it's because someone walked into your church.
And started shooting everyone. And the government really didn't care. In Nigeria, at least 50 people were killed, many more injured, when a gunman stormed a Catholic church in the country's southwest. This is people gathered for Sunday Mass. Local media reports say the gunman opened fire before detonating explosives. Many of the victims are children. If you go to India, it is because the Hindu Nationalist Party
kind of discriminates against you and passes laws saying that anytime anyone converts to Christianity, it's because they were forced to and the people who are involved with it are criminals and they need to go to jail. Right-wing Hindu groups here strongly support the law. Once the law comes, we can demolish these churches. We are already prepared to demolish them, but we are waiting for the law to be passed. Once it is passed, our hands are no longer tied. We are free to take action.
We can catch them and report them to the police. And they'll go to prison. And they don't understand why people in the West, where the church is dying, people aren't going to Mass as much, are worried about... gay marriage, and Latin masses. And they'd see that and they'd go, I don't think you guys are thinking about what's real. And I think that's the issue that's facing this present Congress. What does that tell you about what kind of hope
that they will want, right? These cardinals from the global south, does that mean that they would want to continue in the vein of Pope Francis? Or would they want someone radically different? I think they would want someone who had what they see as the good sides of Pope Francis, and they'd want someone who didn't have what they saw as the bad sides of Pope Francis.
Pope Francis was strong about helping immigrants and refugees. He was very strong about helping the poor. He was very strong about saying The church should not endorse living a luxurious life. And that means bishops and even priests in some countries. They dress nicely, they eat nice dinners, and they don't understand what it means to be poor. And they don't really connect with the people. He would talk about having the smell of the sheep.
And they really liked that. However, what they didn't like was his emphasis sometimes on the political issues that really are discussed. in the West. They did not want gay marriage. They didn't care about women priests and women deacons. They were functionally on these kinds of issues much more conservative. and in their mind that's where the church is growing and they say if you look at what the mainstream partisan churches are doing they're collapsing because they take on these issues
And the more conservative churches in the West are growing because they keep the conservative issue. And they want the Catholic Church to be more conservative on social issues. We're talking about all of these fault lines in the global south and the global north, and when we're talking about Catholicism in the west, I wonder if you could just talk to me briefly. about someone like J.D. Vance, vice president of the U.S. and recent convert to Catholicism. And how does...
How does his story kind of fit into this discussion that we're having about tensions within the church? J.D. Vance is a conservative convert who is somewhat theologically minded. which means he's read a lot more theological documents. Even me, I'm a professional Catholic, and I'm sure J.D. Vance has read a lot more theological books than I have. And there is definitely a conservative school amongst these converts. JD Vance is in that school, and he has this...
Interesting relationship with Pope Francis. and that J.D. Vance gave an interview where he talked about Catholic teaching on love. But there's this old school, and I think it's a very Christian concept, by the way, that you love your family, and then you love your neighbor, and then you love your community, and then you love your fellow citizens in your own country.
And then, after that, you can focus and prioritize the rest of the world. A lot of the far left has completely inverted that. They seem to hate the citizens of their own country and care more about people outside their own borders. That is no way to run a society. and i think the profound and pope francis you know kind of wrote a letter to the us bishops saying don't think like that
And then the last person to meet Pope Francis before he died, the last outside figure to meet Pope Francis before he died was J.D. Vance. Yeah. He met him on Easter. Hello. So good to see you. I know you've not been feeling great, but it's good to And it's kind of an interesting juxtaposition of his relationship with the Pope.
And I think you'll see this in Canada, and you definitely see it in the United States. There is a... conflict is almost a fair word between what would be termed the pro-life catholic and the justice and peace capital. You have some Catholics who are much more concerned about abortion, who are much more concerned about strong marriages between a man and a woman. And JD Vance is in that school. And there's another school that is much more interested in social justice.
and helping the poor, helping immigrants and especially refugees. And these two emphases, they go against each other in politics. And J.D. Vance is in that pro-life camp. And that other camp generally would support the Democratic Party in the United States. These weird conflicts aren't actually the same even in a lot of European countries. It's just the way politics developed in the
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is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, or on Apple Podcasts. Given everything that we've been talking about, let's talk a little bit more about how that could map on to who the next pope might actually be. And maybe what I could do here is just...
give you some names. So Pietro Perolin, he's been the Vatican's Secretary of State since 2013 and seems to get mentioned a lot as a possible frontrunner. I'm not saying... that Pauli market is the best predictor of who the next pope will be, but it certainly has him in first place right now at 32% odds. What about him?
Well, positive things about him is he worked with Pope Francis for the entire pontificate, and so he had good relations with Pope Francis, while at the same time he didn't... truly offend the conservatives. Many conservative Catholics don't like the relationship that he was trying to develop with China. And just for people listening, sorry, he brokered this deal in 2018, right, that gave the Chinese government a say in choosing cardinals?
And the problem is, is the Chinese government just kept on improving them without asking the Vatican's permission. And the Vatican, in order not to destroy the deal, would just confirm. the bishops afterwards and that's what people complained about right and And I don't think most of the other Cardinals care that much about it because in many ways, Pope Francis wanted to deal with China and he got him a deal with China. The things that would go against him is he is very much
enshrined in the Vatican sphere. He's never had a real bishop job leading the diocese. He was in charge of finances and stuff, and he didn't do a very good job. The Vatican lost a lot of money under him sometimes. And there are lots of rumors about his health because he is a cancer survivor. So people sometimes use that against him. So those are the things that would work against him. But yeah, he's probably the number one candidate. But again, we're at 30%.
The other guy I hear a lot about is Luis Antonio Tagle from the Philippines. He seems to be getting a lot of media coverage. He kind of seems like a bit of a media darling. Fair for me to say? Yes, he is a media darling, isn't he? Every time there is a conclave, and I say this, I've only been through two of them, so I take everything I say with a grain of salt. There is a candidate who the press loves.
but the Cardinals aren't going to vote for. Taglay, in many ways, I think is that Cardinal this year. He's been at the Vatican for a few years and he's had three jobs and the reason is because he messed up two of his previous jobs. And I say that not because it wasn't corruption or anything like that. It was just that He wasn't a very good manager. And I'm from Texas originally, and we have a term about a person being...
All hat and no cattle. And that kind of describes dog life. Okay. Forgive me. I don't want to go to hell for all eternity, but I just said what I said. If it is him, which sounds unlikely. I will probably lose my job, yeah. No, no, I just want to say for people listening, he would be the first Asian Pope. He would be the first Asian Pope, yes.
Let's do one more together. Pierre Batista Pizzaballa, which sounds like a pretty fun name. He's the current patriarch of Jerusalem. He's my bat. He's your bat. He's my bat. Okay, well, when I was reading, he seemed to me like he was kind of a dark horse here. He's younger, and I'm surprised that you just said that. So why? Well, he is a dark horse, yes. But if you bet on the sure thing, you don't win a lot. Thank you. So I'm going to bet on the guy who is the Dark Horse.
Why is he good? Because there are four groups in the conclave. The first group are the conservatives, and there aren't that many of them left. the second group are the progressives which there are a much stronger group than there were the last two conclaves but they're still not a vast majority The third group are people from the developing world who are much more concerned about persecution.
and then some of these social issues affecting the West. And the fourth group are Italians, who are the largest group of cardinals. And also, frankly, before Pope John Paul II, All the popes were from Italy for a few hundred years. They think it's their job. And he kind of fits all four groups. He's Italian, but not too Italian. Because he's been in the Middle East for a while, right? He's been in the Middle East because he was a member of the Franciscans of the Holy Land.
He is generally socially conservative-ish, as you would have to be if you were in the Middle East. But he also cares about the poor and he cares about the social issues. I don't think he would be considered progressive on things like gay marriage. But he might be more progressive on things dealing with contraception and things like that. But I admit I've never asked him. But I don't think he offends the progressives. And I don't think...
And I think the conservatives would be happy with him. And the Italians and the people from the developing world would love him. So that's why he's my pick. I think he'd be the one. But again, no one knows. Whoever they pick, uh... What are the biggest challenges that the next pope is going to face in the years ahead? And I imagine that we've touched on some of them in the conversation today, but I think it would be worthwhile for me to ask you that straight.
I think the biggest challenges will be for the church dealing with some of the... social issues with people are facing and and also i think in the west people were thinking about oh there's progress and we're going to be progressive and right now we're seeing a rise amongst conservatives you see trump and you also see it happening here in england and it looked like it was going to happen in canada but trump managed to to bomb that and um I think that He has to deal with the fact that
Politics is different. It's getting weird. And he has to be able to confront that, but not confront it like it's like 1980 again. We're in a new era. So let me ask you, as a Catholic, and I ask this question also, As a Catholic myself, I grew up, I went to Catholic school. I would not consider myself. religious anymore. We're like a cult. You're not allowed to be. Do you think it can face those challenges that you're raising right now? Do you think it's capable of it, this institution?
do i think it's capable of it uh as a human institution no as a divine institution yeah And that is a very weird... way of putting it but it is as a catholic i have to sit there and say yeah i believe there is a god and i do believe that he does influence what we do and how things happen And so, yes, I have to believe the church can face these issues.
but there's an old saying you know if you're want to be catholic and you wonder why should i become a catholic why should i think it's true and the number one reason people will often give if they're professional Catholics like I am, is you would need divine intervention to be as messed up as this thing has been for 2,000 years and still be around. Yeah, you look at church history and you're going, how does this thing still exist? And so yes, I have to believe that they can answer.
these questions that they can provide solutions and you know it's what the bible says is you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free and so hopefully the church can present the truth in a way that people can understand it and it will set them free. Charles, I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much. Can I say something to you that is not... I'm just saying that smoke has not...
come up yet. I know. We're looking at a live stream too. What does that mean? This is absolutely terrifying. Well, see, this is the thing. There's 133 of these guys there. So I don't know. If it means one, that they have just messed up. I just can't get the ballots. If they count the ballots and they don't have 133 ballots. It means one's missing. This has happened before.
And what they have to do is they have to re-vote. That could be a possibility. Two, there's 133 of them, and they're just kind of freaking out. Yeah. And that could be a reason. Something could have delayed it? Well, I think a lot of us have seen Conclave. Well, yeah, Conclave was awful. I watched it today because I had to admit that I hadn't seen it all. So I watched it today. full and full and all right it was bad from the beginning I was saying, man, we want the claim to see you.
The Mad War thing. That sounds ominous. The scariest thing would be if someone's been elected. Right. Wow. And that would be one of the reasons that the smoke hasn't gone up yet. is someone actually just got elected in one vote. And if someone got elected in one vote, That just doesn't happen. I think we're probably going to have to get you back up then if that happens.
I mean, if that is not what happened, you're going to have to throw this show away. Yeah. I hope your evening is okay. Well, if there's a new Pope, drop me a line because I'm not going to go to sleep.
will do uh thank you so much really appreciate it all right thank you too i'm sorry if i blabbered too much i'm just i'm just watching no smoke going up and it's freaking me out to know all right thanks a lot all right so just a note to say that almost immediately after we recorded our conversation with charles black smoke we saw black smoke so that means no pope wednesday night but we will see what today and tomorrow brings For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcast.