YOU ARE NOT ALONE

the same time. Maybe their stories will connect with you if you're going through something, or resonate if someone you care about is struggling. And I did not know enough about the issues surrounding the mental health crisis. And then some years ago I hosted the Invictus Games got to know some veterans coping with invisible wounds of war. Their bravery was impressive and spending time with them was powerful. In two thousand six, Rashon Salam, Heisman Trophy winner for

my alma mater, took his own life. I really like Rashan. I was hit hard by that, and I wish I had been more aware of the depth of Rashan's pain. Many millions are really struggling right now as much as ever, and our hope for these episodes is to contribute to the conversation and help erase the stigma, the depression. That was important. It's in my family, and you know that's when my wife said, you can help one person, that's great.

And if you help that one person who tells that one person who tells that one person, you know, that's important. And once you do it, like there was, it was cathartic for me, but it was it was scary because you're going and I tell people a lot of things. Now I'm really telling them something. If you follow sports at all, you've been aware of Dan Patrick's work for a long time. He's one of the most talented broadcasters

I've ever worked with. At him more than twenty years ago at ESPN, he was one of the best sports center anchors ever. At NBC hosted Football Night in America with great work hosting the Olympics. That Dan Patrick Show has been a fixture forever on national radio. It is

now also on the Peacock Network. So Dan, one morning, you go in your show, that An Patrick Show, and you say I'm gonna take a left turn here, and you announced that you've been carrying around a secret, going to explain what that is and where that led you.

What was the secret you were talking about? Well, I think for about six years it was an open secret that I was kind of struggling every day to get to work and I had been going through I had a condition called polly My out of ramatica, which is PMR and it normally hits older people and I was getting it or first glimpses, and I was I think fifty five fifty six and I went and got diagnosed. And it you feel like you have the flu every day, but you don't. You're not nauseous, you just have the aches.

And I was having a hard time tying my shoes in the morning, and you know, we moved all of my clothes downstairs so I didn't have to walk up steps because I had a hard time doing that. And I just and I thought, you know what, and I just started taking a drug to combat this that was kind of an exploratory, uh drug called a tamera. And I was just I was in a fog a little bit, and I was forgetting things on the air, and I

was starting to feel embarrassed. And I remember that I, you know, why not just come forward and just say, look, this is what I'm going through, so the audience knows with me that if I make a mistake, then then they understand that I'm making mistakes here, which I normally wouldn't do. I couldn't remember Albert Poohol's his name three different occasions, so I just couldn't. I couldn't bring it up. Uh Tomzo's name, I couldn't bring it up. I forgot

how to start my car. One morning, I went to the grocery store to buy something, and I had to call my wife to ask her why I went to the store when it was my idea to go to the story. And I started to get really concerned if I was going to continue to do this. While going through this treatment, I'd get hooked up to an ivy once a month at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York, and it was really powerful stuff, and and you know, they'd monitor me for a half hour when

it was done with my vitals. I went four months going through these treatments, didn't even know if it worked. And they said one morning, you'll know. And I would get out of bed every morning after four months, and I realized it was groundhog Day and it didn't. Then it finally worked where I took away probably sixt out of my pain, but I was still forgetting things going through this treatment, and I just said to the Dannets, you know what, if I can help, So I'm going

through depression. I mean, I was all over the place, and I just said, if I can tell somebody something that the audience knows, but also let them know if you go through something like this, you know, it doesn't know what you do, it doesn't discriminate. And you know, it kind of tapped me on the shoulder and I was going through some serious depression, and um, you know that it was finally time to just let everybody kind of in on the secret. Well there's a lot to

unpack there and talk about and get into. And I think that you showing that vulnerability will be very helpful and I hope helpful to you as well. Let's back up and talk about the pain. So you're you're fifty five years old and climbing the stairs as a problem and getting out of bed as a problem. Describe for those who haven't had probably malagia at room romatica, what

what that pain was like. Every morning. It was just it was this dull egg that just hung there and and you'd wake up in the morning and I felt it in my knees right away and in your hand. So it's all your joints, so it doesn't you know, it's not like one side of your body or one part of your body. It's both knees, it's both hips, it's both ankles, both hands, both shoulders, my neck every single day. And then they had me on Pregna zonne.

I don't know if you've ever been on Pregna zone, hopefully you never get on Pregna zone because that is a a powerful drug. And I was taking pretty high doses um. But my mood swings were all over the place. So it would take away the pain magically, and then but I would be all over the map, all this energy or I wouldn't say a word, and you know, so my wife's trying to troubleshoot this, and you know it was I had gotten to the point where I didn't know if there was going to be any kind

of solution. And I ended up going to Veil, Colorado to visit my daughter, and I went in there to the Steadman Clinic and the doctor said, have you tried this? I said, I'll try anything, and he said, well, you're gonna be hooked up to an ivy. I said, I don't care. And if I don't go and see him, I don't know where I am today. Because he told me to see this doctor, Dr Lally at you know, hospital for Special Surgery, and she said, look, we're trying

this on rheumatoid arthritis patients. Do you want to try it? I said, yes, I'll try it. And so I was, you know, probably one of the first people in the United States to do it. But you know, I was a willing participant. I was just a guinea pig because I couldn't This pain was so I didn't play golf for seven years. I was gonna say, you're you're acting. You're an athlete, you play basketball, you love golf. Activity

is a part of your life. You're you're fifty five years old, you're far from old, and now you're you're being robbed at that. For people who suffer pain in any form, they know that it takes away your joy. You can't be carefree, you can't have happiness for long. It's hard to even be present, right because the present is painful and you're looking for a way to get away from that. So just that daily pain and we'll

get to where it leads you emotionally. But the physical piece of it, you gotta go and you gotta do a show every day in two twelve, So you're you're doing Football Night in America in the fall, the London Olympics. That summer, you're doing your show. It's a heavy workload, high, high profile, demanding things. How are you keeping it together for that? I have no idea. I really don't, Chris, because I would take a nap at Football Night in America.

I would get there at noon, we'd watch the pregame shows, and then at halftime of the first set of games at one o'clock, I go take a nap for forty five minutes, just because my body was just screaming out that, you know, just lie down, and then I would get up at four o'clock and then i'd prep we'd start taping at five, and then I would work, you know,

the rest of the evening doing Football Night in America. Uh. In the Olympics, the London Olympics, you know, I was taking presdic zone, but you know, you you just kind of do that that that's a grind. That's like twenty two consecutive days where you're doing six hours alive TV. And part of it was you look forward to getting on the air. So I didn't sit around and think about it. And you know, my wife would just say stop moping, like come on, let's go take a walk. Hey.

But I couldn't pick up anything more than a wedge when I played golf, and then I didn't want to shoot basketball, and that's all I love, you know, I love shooting hoops and couldn't play golf. I quit my membership at a golf club, and uh, you know, I just resigned myself to the fact that this is what I was going to have. I went to the person who coined the phrase PMR older. He's probably in his nineties now. I walk in and he goes, I go, I I gotta you know, I want you to see

if I have. He goes, you've got PMR. I go, no, I want you to diagnose. I goes, I can tell you PMR. I said, what shouldn't I take a blood test? He goes, go next door, Come back, you have pm are? I go next door? I come back. He says, you have PMR. I said, well, how do you you know? How do we combat it? He goes, uh, we give you a pregnic zone. I said, well, how did I get it? We don't know. How do I get rid

of it? We don't know. And so I leave this doctor's office and I'm going I have no idea what I'm doing, and you know, I just I don't know. I think I I'm fortunate I had an outlet, and I'm fortunately I had guys that I come in every day and they made me laugh. They took my mind off of it. Because once the show got was over, I got back in the car and then I went back home, and then I didn't want to do anything.

And then you sit around and you just, you know, it just starts to the walls start to close in a little bit on you. Yeah, the show must go on. As a phrase, it exists for a reason because that's the mentality, right, whether it's what you do, what I do, what they do on Broadway or films. You you just get through whatever physical or emotional pain your deal ling with, and you just do the job because that's what you're

expected to do. There's a long tradition of it. So you have to sit there in that share and be funny and be sharp and have your a game every single day while dealing with all this. I guess you know, this job and sports in general is viewed as a diversion, a distraction from real world stuff, so that that may have helped, because you've gotta, by the way, prep for this show. You have to watch games and read stuff. You can't just turn up and know what you need

to know to do the show. So I guess it must have been therapeutic in that way to have sports as an outlet for as many hours as you could do. Yeah, and I think when but I also would in the back of my mind, I would look at the clock and know that, Okay, the show is going to end the next number of minutes, which meant I had to Now I left my little dream world here that we call you know, radio or TV, and you know it just starts. You just I can't explain it other than

you know you were in this. I was in a world that nobody could understand, and you're trying to explain. I would have my wife if I let's say we took a plane trip to Cincinnati to our flight, and I would say, honey, you gotta hold my hand when I'm getting up, because I didn't want people to think that I mean, I was, I felt frail, and she would I can't say. We'd go to a movie and I'd say I need help getting up. I'd go to

dinner and I'd say I need help getting up. It's just if I sit for thirty minutes or more and so I'm sitting in my job and I get up, and then I never want you to feel like, oh my god, I felt eighty. If if this is eighty, I'm in trouble. But I just couldn't. People didn't realize what was going on, and then you, how did you? How did they not realize? How did how did someone

that see you? You're recognizable, They come up, they want to talk to you, they want to picture back in the air when that's that stuff went on, and then you don't want then to know what you're carrying. And that's understandable. A few of us would, but now that's extra energy taken to conceal it as well. I just even if I was trying to explain it though Chris, it was I couldn't conceal it. I just couldn't explain it.

So if I go, hey, it's like the flu, but you don't, you're not nauxious, and they go, oh, well, how do you get rid of it? And this if I had a dollar for every time I'm asked the following have you been tested for line? And I go, yes, I was probably tested for lime twenty twenty different blood tests. I took so many blood tests and I it always came back to the same. And then you're trying to

tell somebody something and then they'll go, oh, okay. They don't understand it because it's not something that is you know, it's not like a broken arm or knee surgery. It's I got something to do with my joints and it doesn't allow me to move very well. Okay, And that's about all you can explain to people. So but I look, I I don't people try to be nice and understand it. I but you know, when you ask somebody, hey, how you feeling? Do you really want to know how they're feeling?

But you ask, and then if I say, do you really want to know? Because I was trying to be you know, fair to my friends, you don't want to know, yes, I'm doing okay. Well, there's different ways of handling this, different ways of handling all sorts of pain. Some people with a stiff upper lip reveal nothing to anyone, even those close to them don't know. Others are, oh, I gotta hangnail and you gotta hear about that for a half.

I know that you're kind of in that former group, and that's that's sort of what I grew up around family members who didn't share things like that. But that also carries its own burden and its own weight. So you you leave the studio and you're on the drive home, and what's going through your head and now you've got all these hours to fill and and you've got all this pain to cope with. Well, it got to the point where I tried to find a longer way to

go home. I would I would ask my wife, you know, I would do errand like, I had to do something before I went home, because once I got home and it was around six o'clock, then I wanted to self medicaid. And I would say to my wife, you know, I'll wait till seven o'clock to have something to drink. And I would so then it would be six, then it was six thirty, then it was six fifteen, that was six o'clock. And I was going down a bad road because I just I wanted the pain to go away.

I didn't want to take prednic's own and so, you know, I got a medicinal marijuana license. Like I was like, how do I get through each day because I know what it's going to be like when I wake up in the morning, and I wanted to basically knock myself out go to sleep, you know, And that became a daily thing from from whatever was six o'clock until you went to bed. That that was sort of the pain management was the only thing on your mind at that point. And then I didn't know I had neuropathy, so I

couldn't sleep through the night. I would sleep in three hour increments, and then my my fingers and feet would like numb up and then you know, so it was a constant like you're up and then you're trying to go back sleep, and you know, you wake up in the morning and you realized that here it is again, that pain is there every single morning. But you know, God loved my wife every single day for seven years. She asked me, how do you feel every single day?

Every single day? And that one day when I said, I feel okay, and she's like, what, I go, I don't know, something's different there. And that's after the four month period of doing these I V s and um, you know, I just said, you know, I'm gonna keep doing it for a little while, and then, uh, you know, I did it for twelve months. How do you give yourself a pep talk to do that? I don't know. I just you know, I love working every day and

I just there's something about that that's therapeutic. That I was. I was able to get up, and it took me such a long time. It's forty five minutes of that pain was always there, and then I would take a shower and then I would feel a little bit better. There'll be days my wife would help me with my shoes, my jacket and I get out the door. And then once I got to work, then I just I don't know, I just you kind of shed it. You have to

leave it. You just you know, nobody wanted to hear about it, but I wanted them to hear about it. When I got to a point where I wasn't doing my job, and that's you know, that was where I said, I got to tell people that I'm not doing my job correctly. This is why also depression, that was important. It's in my family. And you know, that's when my

wife said, you can help one person, that's great. And if you help that one person who tells that one person who tells that one person, you know, that's important. And once you do it like there was, it was cathartic for me, but it was it was scary because you're going I tell people a lot of things. Now I'm really telling them something and that's as personal as I could get. But I kept thinking, this is the audience. I mean why it's reciprocated. You invest in me, I

should invest in you. I should let you know what you mean to me. And that's what I did. I just this is how important you are to me. I want you to understand what I'm going through. And you know, if it helps you, you want you know somebody, then great, we're all in this together. And it was freeing. And the number of people who have responded and continue to respond has been you know, that's that's the reward of

all of this. It was really really beneficial I think, for you know, certainly myself, but those on the other end, he said, scary, And I think I understand what you mean, but that kind of fear has different meanings. Why why was it scary to you the idea about letting people in on what you were feeling and the thoughts you were having. I just thought, guess I'm really opening myself up here. And I didn't at the time. I didn't know who I was, Like, I'm trying to figure out

who I am going through all of this. You know, as a as a father. You know, you've got three daughters. You want to walk down the aisle. I have a son who's getting married. Like, You're just like, what do you mean? You didn't know who you were? You you you had a pretty well established idea of who you were at this point in your life, but this was taking

away your ability. It's got to recognize yourself. Well, I didn't know what I was going to be, Like, I didn't know I was having memory loss, um, I was still having pain. I just wasn't sure what I was going to be and who I was going to be. Um. I didn't lose my identity as much as I was like, as I move forward here? Can I be great? Can I be good? Can I do this for a living? You have a very high standard that you want to

meet for yourself. I understand that when that slips, when that's not there, you might be the only one who knows it. But very few damn what would know that. But that doesn't matter, because you want to be you want to meet your own standard. And it's got to be pretty pretty eff and scary to think that this might continue to a point where you couldn't come close to what you have been doing. Yeah, and that's where you're losing your identity. Like am I still at the

top of my game? And there would be moments where I would have these memory lapses and Pauli's my producer, and Paully would turn his microphone in on into my headphones and say, uh, Mark Cuban or uh you know, he'd say at Lanta Hawks because he could tell I was getting to a point where I go where where am I? So when you leave here, it's not like it's just nobody sees it when you leave here. That's where I was like, God, I can't remember what's going on?

Like you know, when I forgot how to turn on my car, which all it is is a push button. And and so that's where you're going. God, I gotta get my ship together here, Like, how do I so it? I kind of got lost in it, but I was. I revealed it and I didn't look back. It was just scary when I was revealing it. I didn't even tell my guys who I work with, because I thought they would talk me out of it, like just to say, you don't want to be that revealing. And I just thought,

I what, you know, who am I too? I don't have to hide. I shouldn't hide. You know, we all secrets, but this is this is something that I can share that we all benefit in. And I take great pride if somebody comes back to me and says, thank you for talking about depression, thank you, um, because I think we all think you have a great life. Chris got a great family, great wife. You can't be depressed. You know, Hey, I got a great wife, I got four kids. I

can't be depressed, but you can. And so this all, like it was the perfect storm that hit me that I I, you know, had not been able to work out. I didn't do anything. I didn't want to go anywhere. I was embarrassed if I sat down for more than thirty minutes to get up, like you know, you kind of lose yourself a little bit, like, man, I don't want to be this way. But then everybody realized and he said, everybody, come on in, come on in under the tent. It's a big tent here because there are

a lot of people. Come on in. Everybody. Now we all understand that. But uh, I got a very understanding family, and uh that's certainly paid off. All depression is a topic that's been important to me and lots of people. I do want to get into that. You said you had in your family, so you have an awareness of what it's like. You understand that it's not a character flaw. It's a flaw in chemistry. It's not in your control. But it's very, very tough to to find a way

to navigate out of that. So when you're when you're you're feeling this pain and obviously you're going through all the scary thoughts. How did that translate into sort of mental difficulties and take you sort of to a dark place. I didn't know I was there. I think a lot of people who are depressed, don't know they're there, and I just I would just get to a place where I didn't want to talk, you know, I just sit and then I didn't realize I wasn't talking, and my

wife would say, what's wrong. I go nothing, But I was in my own world and I I just I don't know. I let it uh kind of easy its way in and then it doesn't leave easily. Um, And you know, I kept thinking, you know, every thing in my MINDSETF I can figure this out. I can get out of this. I can be better than this, I can be stronger than this. And then I realized that I couldn't. And that's you know when you know, I just had to figure out can I do I need

to talk to somebody? And then the you know, I'm stubborn. I don't want to talk to somebody. I don't need to talk to somebody. So I kind of just you know, threw myself into a deeper, deeper hole. And I pulled into the driveway one time, and I'm embarrassed, but I went in right into the garage and I just said, if I shut that garage door, I'm good. That's that.

That was the way out that made a little bit of sense for a moment there for a moment, and I understand when people say how could somebody do something like that? I just you know, you pull in and I go, I can shut that door, and then I go what like? And then of course it hits you and you go, what God, what am I thinking here? And you know you're leaving four kids and you're you know,

just all the it's just crazy. But you get in that space and I couldn't get out, and you know, you just like I couldn't wait to get out of the car and out of the garage to go what am I doing? What am I doing? What am I doing? Was that a momentary thing one time or persistent? No, that was once. But the depression was that was constant where it was just like I just dreaded waking up in the morning, hated it. What did that? What did

it feel like to you? Because people describe it in different ways, but what what the depression on a daily basis feel like to you? It was just it was as if the day is cloudy, overcast every day. Energy? Did you have any No, now, you just don't want to do anything. I didn't. I didn't want to do anything. And I would sit downstairs at night and I would smoke a cigar and drink. That would That would be the routine every night, just it there. And it was

that you know, wallowing period or whatever it was. But I was just down there, didn't want to talk, and you know, that was it. So like seven to nine o'clock, you know that was that was happy hours. But you know, then you realize that I'm not It doesn't make it any better. But I was trying to take away pain. And you know that paint pain was physical, but it

was also mental. But you know when I people normally don't have what I had for as long a period of time, and then older people think they're dying when they are diagnosed with this because you don't know. And you know, I think that was I was trying to learn a lot more about how I was going to feel in my body and what I needed to do and to get some clarity here. Um. And I don't know how I got it, by the way, because you're probably gonna go, well, how did you get out of this?

I don't. I don't. I think I started to feel better about myself. Um, and I was seeing the results and then I was able to do a soul cycle. I did, and I just basically said, I worked out twice a day. I basically said, to my pain, fuck you, like you're hurting me, I'm gonna hurt you. So I'd work out twice a day. I was doing sole cycle three times a week, and I just attacked it. And then I felt better about myself that it felt like I was doing something back to this condition and I

kind of emerged from the fog. You said you've had experience with it. What did you learn, either by being taught or observing about the way to deal with this, Because sometimes that's not helpful. You can learn things that end up impeding your ability to cope with it. Because in past generations, it wasn't something that you admitted that you talked about, wasn't something that was It was not understood well now was understood even less well back then.

Well it was called you had you had mental health issues like Kevin mental condidence, like I, That's what I was always told. Like I didn't know depression growing up. I knew people who had depression, but I didn't know It's like alcoholism is in my family, Like you know it but I don't know what alcohol like how many drinks do you have? And that means you're an alcoholic? And and so I didn't know any of those things. And then you know, when I was I didn't want

to say I had mental issues. But if you say you're depressed, then what's that mean? You have something? A mental condition that you're dealing means you're sad. People think, oh, you're sad about something. I think that they depressed. Why it stigmatizes because it's so poorly understood, and people what they would say to you as you as you mentioned earlier,

what do you have to be depressed about? But the reality is, if you investigate it, you see people like Terry Bradshaw whom we both know, Michael Phelps, Bruce Springsteen. In some ways, the more successful you are, it actually makes you susceptible to this. It doesn't insulate you from being depressed. That actually could accentuate the problem. Despite success accolades all these things. And was there a moment when you understood that through somebody's example. I thought that Kevin

Love was extremely brave. And you know, even when Paul George was in the Buddle bubble talking about this, like I. Any time I hear it or I read it, my ears perk up, like I. I just want to know

because there's something about it. When you talk about it, you you find out so many people who can empathize understand it that you never thought could because you thought, God, I don't want to tell anybody this, and then you do, and then it's amazing the number of people say, you know what, I went through it, or these are things that I went through. Hey, if you ever need somebody

to talk to. But I didn't have some magic elicks or that I went, I can do this or I can be a part of this, and you know, there's no therapy sessions, and uh, but I do think if I did not go to Veil, Colorado and take this experimental drug, I wouldn't want to talk about this today because I would still have it. And I just didn't want to be on prednice own because that is that is a horribly wonderful drug. It takes away all your pain.

But man, the mood swings and I was all over the map, and you know, it was just it was kind of a mess. But I had never had more success in my career. Chris, which is crazy Football Night in America was wonderful. The Olympics is one of the best experiences. I'm handing out the super Bowl Trophy a couple of times. You know, I'm being nominated for awards, I'm going into the Broadcasting Hall of Fame. All of this in the last seven or eight years, where I

think I've done some of my best work. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever, um because it's like, you know, it took me X number of years to be an overnight success, Like I've been doing this a long time, but I don't know. I just That's one of the reasons why people don't get help, though, because they can be highly success usful and achieve a lot while dealing

with it. So you're thinking, wait a minute, if I if I take some radical shift, if I do what I think should be done to get rid of this pain, is that going to mess with other parts of my life which are going okay. I thought about taking time off from the show, but I didn't know how that was going to help me. You know, I think mentally I probably should have, but physically there was nothing I could do. Where I went If I take thirty days off and go to some warm weather climate or whatever

it might be. But oh, okay, I'll be better. Um. And you know, I think that that was the biggest challenge of can I continue to do it? Because I was working six days a week and you know, three hours live on radio and TV, and then you're doing football night in America like these are all there's pressure in there. And then I wondered if that pressure brought about this condition because there's so much that's not known

about it. I put tremendous pressure on myself and if we got nominated for an Emmy, I'd be disappointed that we didn't win the Emmy and I didn't enjoy the Emmy and all these different awards, and I you know, I think at about two or three years ago, I finally relaxed and said, you know what, you're not going to be better than Bob Costas. You're not gonna win

these awards. You're not going to do that, You're not this is You better enjoy this because I waited probably the first sixty years of my life and didn't didn't enjoy it. And I don't know if that adds to depression. I don't know if it added to my condition, but man, I wanted to beat everybody. I'm competitive, and then I realized, like I couldn't be. And you know, it was a great kick in the ask to say, hey, dumbass, enjoy it while you can, because one day it's all over.

And I finally got around to doing that. But I think being physically able to my wife and I go play golf. Now nine holes, that's it. Nine holes that make a physical condition, or just playing golf as a couple, maybe nine holes as the limit for the hell, let me see, let me choose the great dancer there. Uh, it's just nice to get out every Sunday with my wife.

But but you know, she she appreciates because she's like, who would have thought we would be at this point where I and we walk and she would say that we're going to go play golf. So you know, it's it's it's been a long run, man. And uh. You know, people I say, oh, I wouldn't wish this on anybody. I wouldn't wish it all my worst enemy. I wouldn't wish it on anybody. Just to go through it and not have any kind of light at the end of the tunnel, because every time I'd see that light at

the end of the tunnel. It felt it was two headlights and they were coming right at me. Was it helpful to hear that you are not alone? Because I think some people feel very lonely in this when you begin to read stories of others, famous or or not famous. How did that affect you to realize millions, millions suffer from something similar, if not identical, to what I saw

from I think it was everyday people. I didn't need you to have a title attached to your name because you know, well Michael Phelps and you know Kevin Love and you know, those are all important things, the important people. But they're important because they can tell people what this is all about, and and that I've got the most medals in Olympic history. But I was depressed. Um, that's important.

But it's the everyday person who just don't get to tell anybody that story, you know, and when they want to, and you'll listen to them, and that's what's important. I get letters all the time. Got a letter this morning where it was just a Vietnam bet and he said, thank you for doing this. You know, we're we're you know, his whole world. He said, I've been suicidal. I you know, and I struggle and I who do you? I? Who

do I talk to? And all of a sudden I turn on the radio and you're telling me that you've gone through this. He said, Just thank you for saying that. That's far more beneficial than any a war you could give. You you you read that, you read that letter from this guy. What proud of yourself for for being vulnerable? I don't know if proud, I guess I'm I'm just glad I did it, because look, I'm no hero. There are people

who do things and gone through greater things. But if I can use a platform that does impact people in a positive way, then that's great. I mean, that's I'm very lucky to have that platform. But it's um. You got angry when when Dak Prescott was criticized for showing his vulnerability and what he had gone through suicide. Yes, I mean his mom died, his brother died of a suicide. And then you know people you know to say, well you're vulnerable, Well you're making it so vulnerable. I mean,

you can't be a leader if you're vulnerable. I got I didn't understand that logic, and I'm going, oh, my god, Well, will people stop doing this because you know, we're stigmatizing this again. And that's the dangerous part where people are gonna be afraid to come forward. Oh you're soft. What if that's the case? Sign me up. I'm fucking soft. But I'm vulnerable, and so Dak Prescott in that moment. God,

I can't imagine how vulnerable he was. And for people to say, you're the leader of a football team, that's not what leaders do. I'm more apt to follow that guy than a guy who was keeping everything inside. And I just it angered me, and probably because you know, it was hitting me personally, but I just said, man, don't don't do that to people. If you're gonna do it to Dak Prescott, you're gonna do it to you know, somebody who might be in your family. Come on, toughen up,

don't be so soft. Um. I've had a couple of people who committed suicide that I know, And if you would have said that these two people are gonna kill themselves, I said, there, you're you gotta be crazy. In a million years, I would you know? I I when I found out, I went and there's no way. But that's why when people go, you know, be tough, you know, don't be soft, don't be vulnerable. Man, I think millions have lost someone to death by suicide. I have as well,

And you obviously wonder why didn't they share? Why didn't I know more? Had they what could I have done? And I think you're you hit it at the stigma, especially being male in the athletic the sports world, it's even an extra layer of stigma. You said something powerful, and I think everybody deserves the right to handle their situation and express or not express what's troubling them and every whatever way they see fit. But you did say that you found it the opposite of selfish to share.

You found it selfish when you don't share the pain you have with others. Why, um, I think because if you have a message or you can relate to somebody, you're not trying to but if you can relate to them, or they hear that voice or that somebody they see on TV. And uh, I just thought, if I kept inside, and this is my wife was saying, be selfless with this, you know, share it. Sure it's okay, shuret And like

what am I hiding? What am I holding onto? Like I'm you know, boy, this is gonna reveal me in a different way. And I think I was I always wanted to present myself as having my ship together, you know,

I'm like, hey, I got it all together. Hey, I'm doing great, And there's so much to it that's fragile that it can unfold, unravel, and I just thought, why not just be human, just be honest and and I and I had to talk to my wife and she was great about it, but she kept saying, it's not about you, It's about everybody who will hear this, because I was worried about me, Chris, and I was I was forgetting This is about everybody else out there, whoever wants to consume it in whatever way you want to

consume it. That was the important part that I was missing, and was like, God, I don't I don't know if I want to tell people I'm feeling this way or I'm forgetting her. And then she goes, it's not about you, it's about them. And that was that moment of clarity where I didn't even tell my wife I was going to do it. She was getting all these text messages, like my two brothers in law, what's what's Dan doing? What's he talking about? She had no idea what I

was doing. And then I got home and she said, do you want to talk about this? I said, you empowered me to be honest and I did it. And I said, I'm sorry that I blindsided you. But I did not know I was going to do it that morning. It was around I don't know, in the second, first hour, and then I thought, top of the hour, I'm going to do it. And I had to build up the courage to do it. And that's why I didn't tell anybody who said, you know what, full speed ahead, here

we go. If I get emotional, if I cry, whatever, let's go. And yeah, I'm glad I did it for the right reasons, the a humility that's associated with suffering from this. And I've heard others say they don't consider themselves cured. They consider the depression to be in remission. It's to be managed. But you don't completely put it in the rear view mirror. That's them. How how do you feel about that? Well, my condition is not in

the clear. Like I wake up every day and in my hands feel like I've laid bricks, my shoulders, my knees. I still have numbness in my fingers and toes, but I don't have that, you know. I it felt like it was wearing a two pound vest every morning when i'd wake up. Now it feels like it's a ten pound vest. So I have that every single day, and you know, you just you know it's there. And I

think that it's all connected. That if you're you're feeling down, and you allow yourself to feel down and you go back down into that rabbit hole, that's when the all start closing it. So I think it's all connected. And that led to me being even more depressed. When I can go out, go for a walk, when I can play golf, when I can just get up without pain, you know, then I feel like I'm I'm a real person there. But I was feeling like I was a half a person where you're going, oh my god, I

can't get up without my wife holding my hand. So I stabilized myself. So I just viewed it as long as I was making progress. Then I I didn't think about depression, which is kind of strange and I don't know what it is clinically, Chris, If you like, do we consciously think about depression or is it just it's there and you realize it's always going to be there. I don't know that, but I know my condition is still here to whatever degree. And I'm sure depression is

always right around the corner. You feel that that it's always right around the corner. If the if the condition we get worse than its own cost, how does how does that make you feel when you when you don't know when it might come back or how strongly it would come back. It just motivates me to be active, to be positive, to be doing things too, like don't sit around. Don't sit around, and and you know, there are days when I take two naps in the afternoon.

You know it'd be it usually at one o'clock after the show and then maybe around four thirty. Like I was in that much pain, and my wife knew it, and she just, you know, uh just said, you know, when you get up, you want to take a walk. Let me know, the last thing I wanted to do was take a walk, but I you know, I did it. And so I have to remind myself every day. When we get done with this interview, I'm going to go work out. Um, it's I have to do it. I bought a sauna because I had like every day I

would get in that song. I just had to take away this this inflammation is just it would be you know, depressing. It overwhelmed you and I so I would do that and do soul cycle. Those were things that if I didn't have those then I think I would have been in a lot of trouble. So being active, active and actually you know, smiling, having to having a good out outlook on life is as corny and simple as those

things are. That's what it comes down to. Sometimes for those who suffer, it just takes the one voice, whether it's Michael Phelps said Kevin Love others, for some out there that would be you. You would be the voice that would connect with them and make them understand that what they're going through need not make them feel alone,

that there is a way out of it. So what if anything that you haven't already said, would you say to someone who is coping with Not the PMR that's very specific, but the feelings and thoughts that went with that, the took you to the dark places, Well, a lot of it is as a result of something leads to depression or brings depression out from what I've been told. And I think that's where you have to talk to people.

If you've gone through something that's traumatic, you've lost somebody, you have a condition, you know, that's where you have to be. Just find somebody who will listen to Most people just want to tell you, they just want to talk because you're the one that's stuck with it. Everybody else goes along, you know, every day with their lives, and then you want to just grab somebody and hold them in heaven, sit down and just say, hey, I'm

going through this. And it's not that I didn't have that, it was just after a while, you didn't you know, it wasn't cathartic for me, like I just needed to feel better about myself. And I think the more that you you're willing to talk to somebody it but more importantly,

you have to have somebody who listens to you. That was the most important thing that I had somebody who was willing to listen, and it could be people who were going through depression, my wife obviously, and I felt like I was important, like what I was going through was important to them, and vice versus. So when somebody says, hey, I'm going through this, or hey, did you ever feel this? I'm all ears, Like I know what that feeling is like. You can tell it in somebody's eyes when they really

give a shit about what you're talking about. And when they do, it's just this unbelievable weight that goes off your shoulders where you're going, Okay, I can just talk

to you. I always feel like, you know the clock is running, you know, I work in a business where the clock is always running, and when I sit down and talk to somebody, I always think they're gonna go I got about two and a half minutes to get this in and and then you could just see where they're kind of going blank or they look at their

watch and gotta be there. Me mom, I'm saying, And then my wife and I couldn't get up and I couldn't try my shoot, and then they're going, okay, hey, well see you again, Dan, Nice to talk to you, Like, why did I reveal myself like that? But talk to somebody and just know that you're not in it alone. You're not. But you've got to find somebody that you trust, that loves you, that cares and will listen to you, and then you try to find a solution. I am

so grateful a Dan for opening up like that. It's been said that what mental health needs is more sunlight, more candor, and more unashamed conversation. And Dan's hope and ours is that someone hearing this will be helped if you're seeking help. For information, there are many places to turn. Psychology Today dot com and ap A dot org have

resources to find a therapist for people in crisis. There's a website Suicide Prevention Lifeline dot org Suicide Prevention Lifeline dot org and a phone number to seven three eight to eight hundred to seven three talk. The next episode of this podcast, published a couple of days after this one, features Gary Goldman. His story of managing his anxiet pty

and depression really is uplifting and hopeful. Gary's comedy special, The Great Depression is essential viewing for those interested in this topic, and it's also very very funny as always, thanks to my co executive producer Jennifer Depster and producer Jason white Cow, I would appreciate it if you'd subscribe, rates and review this podcast, and I'll talk to you soon.