YOU ARE NOT ALONE PART 2

featured in our earlier episode on Laughter's Power. In this conversation, he tells us about the struggle against his profound anxiety and depression. To me, it's truly uplifting and inspiring. It urged you to check out his brilliant comedy special from two thousand nineteen, The Great Depression. It had audiences on their feet. My wife shade, not my shade, she said, Gary, all you are doing was crying and sleeping, and I get so defensive. I always say. I also watched Better

Call Saul. I wish you would pay a more accurate picture of what was going on for one hour a week for ten consecutive weeks, I pulled it together, but yes, I was sleeping and crying. I was so sick. I couldn't perform at all. I would bite my lip until it bled from anxiety. I was shaking all the time. My voice was so stressed. I couldn't really talk. I couldn't stand for more than five minutes. I was so

fatigued all the time. I had to cancel all my shows for for months, and I was contemplating retiring from comedy. And then I thought about it some and realized that retirement it's a bit pretentious for what was going on. Johnny Carson retired, Michael Jordan retired. Gary Goldman, you're giving up. It's such an amazingly powerful moment as a viewer of the Great Depression, much less someone who lived it. To

see the reaction. People have laughed for an hour, They've they've applauded bits that they appreciate the intelligence of as well as laugh and at the end, Gary, they get on their feet and they give you a standing ovation when you deliver the line. Just know that if you're suffering from even as severe mental illness, you are not alone. And what could be more basic and more powerful than to deliver that line and connect with people who loneliness

and despair is is central to it. And here's somebody who's making them laugh, who they feel like has come out the other side. I mean, it's it's a it's a look in their eye that must be daunting. It maybe a little bitter as you get used to it, but but also really powerful and gratifying. It wasn't incredibly gratifying.

And I had done comedy for for twenty five years at that point, and when I started touring the Great Depression, and I had done great shows and been really funny, and to be honest with you, I had been funnier. I had gotten more laughs I had. If you, if you had taken out the parts where I was being serious or or informative, then there was less funny then in my past specials, in my past shows. But none of those shows on the on the road got standing ovations.

And I also do meet and greets at the end of every show, and I never had people crying when they met me and telling me about their struggle and there their recovery and what they were and how they didn't want to come out because they were so anxious tonight and they're so glad they came out. They didn't. You never know what you're gonna see from a comedian.

Even though the thing was labeled the Great Depression. I don't think a lot of people knew that they were going to hear a story of my recovery from depression that I don't get enough press where people were saying, this is what the show is about. So it was a it was a surprise to them. And and that

is is so important and I didn't realize it. And and it's so interesting because I was I was vulnerable in my in my way over the years I was I was telling things that that were saying things that were sort of odd or esoteric and saying, in effect, I think this is funny, do you. I think that's

a very vulnerable place to to be. And and I I think that's that takes some bravery to to share somebody, share your humor with with someone, but to go that next level and share this thing that Actually I hadn't told anybody who wasn't related to me that I was in the psych ward. I hadn't told anybody that I had electro convulsive therapy. My psychiatrist is an advocate for and an expert in something called electro convulsive therapy, which

used to be called electroshock therapy. But they felt electro shock was not quite horrifying enough. They said, yes, electro shock is disturbing, but I feel like we're soft selling the convulsions, Yes, the writhing. If we could underscore the writhing, make that the centerpiece, I feel like we could really weed out the cysty season the Mama's Boys. Electro convulsive therapy e c T, as it's always called now it

has a very bad branding problem. In The Great Depression, Gary uses rich detail and humor describing these experiences with e c T. It was nothing like the horror forced on Jack Nicholson's character in One flu with the Cuckoo's Nest. Gary relates how for him, the treatments helped lift the fog of depression and the extreme anxiety that was amplified by his work in front of audiences. It was one of the things that maybe maybe didn't cause my depression

but exacerbated. And it was it was this, and and I found that I was letting the audience decide how I was going to feel about my self tomorrow morning. So I and it was it wasn't there of their fault. I was giving them too much power. So I would I would often start my show by saying I'm I'm very anxious, and I wish you guys knew how much power you have over how I'll feel about myself at

breakfast tomorrow. That if I had a great show, I would feel smart, and that I had a future, that I that I would continue to earn a living, And if I had a bad show, then then who am I? What am I? That? That's they found me out last night? I was a fraud and they finally found me out. And then I came across this quote by by Samuel Beckett. And I tried reading Waiting for Godot years ago, and and I couldn't get past the foreword. And then I tried to read it just the play, and I couldn't

get past the first few paragraphs. It was way too smart for me. But I found this quote by him, and it was this ever tried, ever, failed, no matter, try again, fail again, failed better, And those two words failed better released me of all the perfectionism and the weight I put on every single show that if it didn't go well, then then oh no, I'm I'm a failure and I'm a loser and I'll never write another joke.

And and then it became you take a risk, take at least a risk every time you get on stage. Try something that you don't know if it's going to work. Try something outrageous, Say something that you've been afraid to say for years, such as, ladies and gentlemen, I have a blank ee. I have a blank eye. It's on my pillow right now. And if it and if they don't laugh, then all you did was figure out a way that it won't work. But they don't think you're serious.

Probably they they probably think that's what a comics says. They don't know how deeply true it is. Yeah, And and I tell you now that that I were Glass pointed out that he didn't believe that I really had a blanket, and I had to swear to him that I really really did. He said, people don't really believe that, and I said, well they, first of all, they do,

and second it's it's true. So I think that when when I decided I did that, that I was going to actually go after failure and and take its power away. And Okay, I failed, but tomorrow the failure will be less severe and I'll try something else and over and over again. And I read so many, so many athletic as well as biographies of writers and athletes, and over and over again they they talk about the failures that

made them. And I remember reading this book of essays by Neil game and in in which he just kept saying, over and over again, make mistakes, make mistakes. And my therapist the permission to fail. He's always stressed that give yourself permission to fail, and and I tried it, and it was it was a revelations. The other thing that I wanted to talk about with you is the role

that because you're one. Thing I didn't realize was that people looked at me the same way I looked at my favorite comedians and my favorite athletes, as people who could make me think differently, who could make me understand things in a better way. And what I mean by that is that I looked at Jerry West and Terry Bradshaw two in particular, and there are others talking about their mental illness and their depression, and I thought, Oh, if they're feeling bad, then it can't be just that

I haven't achieved enough to feel good about myself. I think as as you get around successful people, you realize that a lot of them thought that they would feel great as soon as they were successful. And we know that that's not always the case, and that there that that is not the answer to feeling good about yourself. That that, and and I don't know your musical taste, but for some reason, I think you might be a

Springsteen fan. And and I read Springsteen's autobiography and he talked about not being able to get out of bed. And and at the time he was, if I remember correctly, at the time he was unable to get out of bed because of his depression. He was Bruce Springsteen at that time. He was. He was He was the star that we we know he was in his in his fifties, I think, and when I when I think about that, there's no better example of somebody who worked hard, who achieved,

and who seemed to have it all. And if that wasn't the answer to curing depression, then nothing we're actually capable of doing is going to cure depression. It's a it's chemistry, it's not character. And that when when he said that he had gone on an antidepressants and it changed his mood and it made him feel better, and he got back and he wrote and he performed, and he felt good about himself. He shure that that the idea that say, well, Bautron is more effective than being

Bruce Springsteen, that that was really the the answer. No amount of hard work, whether it's him practicing his craft, you're practicing your craft, Bradshaw, you can can can keep this at bay. I mean that's obviously when you when you're feeling something you don't want to feel, you can try to bury yourself in your work and make it go away. But it doesn't work with with clinical depression, does it. I mean, even if you were able to write and work, that's not gonna that's not gonna make

it go away. It's not gonna make things better. And that I don't know if that makes you feel better or worse. If you can relate to someone like Springsteen or Cheese, if even he is subject to all the darkness and the evils of this, what am I going to do about it? I mean, there's different ways you could take his his example or the example of those who are heroes and have everything talent, success, money, fame. All that. My city was I'll work hard, I'll do

something great, then I'll feel good about myself. And I have found in the past two and a half years that it's the opposite. I feel great and now I'm working harder and and it's easier. The work is so much easier because I don't one, I don't have a brain that is that is actually slower. They show that brain is slower when you're depressed. It's not working, it's not firing, it's not operating at its maximum uh ideal level.

And so that's a handicap. And then the other thing is that depression also causes these ruminations in what you're saying, you're you're not talented, you're not smart, you're you're weak, you're lazy. And then and so I'm fighting that off and trying to write an interesting joke. It's it's just too much to ask for. I mean, it's it's interesting

in the in the physical aspects of depression. And the horrible thing about depression is it effects different people different ways, so that I would sleep for nineteen hours and still be tired, and some people will go days without sleep and they can't eating, and other people all they can do is eat and they put on all kinds of wit. But one of the things I found was that Shane, who's about five ten would walk, and I would be when I was depressed, I would say, please slow down,

I can't keep up with you. And and I'm I'm six ft six and athletic, and that was that was never the case with anyone. I always outpaced everyone. And and since I've been feeling better, it's it's back to normal where I'm I'm slowing down to so she can catch up with me. And and and it was it was exhausting, these these block I would walk my dogs for fifteen minutes and I would have to take a nap, and and and that that's not that's not me. I

I have, I have energy. And the depression had had hijacked my brain as as well as my my my limbs, and and I I didn't realize how how far it had gotten until I started to recover and found all these things so much easier. Do you consider yourself in remission, uh, in recovery cured from depression? How do you frame it? I would I would never say cured. I I go between recovered, recovering and sort of the things I've learned.

While while I'm not an alcoholic, I've I've been to a lot of a meetings and I find there's so many so much overlap between recovery from from addiction and recovery from depression, just in the in the sort of outlook and and the sort of vigilance that you need. So so I would say recovery is is something I've embraced and and remission which gives it sort of a medical sound that that I'm keeping it at day, but it is, it is there, and I know the things I have to do every day to to keep it

from from recurring. And and the other thing is is to not to not dwell on on relapse, but also to know that it's that it's possible, it's happened. I've I've had extensive recoveries in the in the past. I try to dwell more on why this recovery has been so sturdy and so lengthy, because it's lasted for over two and a half years, and it's lasted through through

some pretty severe events in my life. And and I I think it's sturdier one because of my vigilance, but also because I had never really accepted who I was to this degree. There are still things I dislike about myself, but I wouldn't I wouldn't say that any of the things that I that I don't like about myself are are worthy of of condemnation or that I should kill

myself over, or that are not worth living with. So I will say my my feeling about my my currents status is that I I I'm in recovery and that and that there's been a remission. So I think that's that's very effective. And also to avoid terms like like uh cured and and and so that's important. I hope everybody knows how how grateful I I am just for the just for the recovery, and and the fact that this this special has resonated with so many people and has has raised my profile and and got me out

to a lot more people. That that's that's icing. But I had to before I even started pursuing making the special, In making the the live show into a special, I had to embrace the idea that it would it. It was a possibility that it was only going to be for the people who came to my live shows, and and that would be enough, and that would be that would be success. I think defining success in a in a reasonable and honest way, in a in a way that doesn't require all kinds of luck and lightning in

a bottle. I think that's the safest and the and the healthiest. Well, I think what's spectacular about it is that not only does it help the people with the live shows, but anyone who watches it, and it would live forever in HBO's specials on there You've done in two thousand five. So there's people that aren't even suffering from depression yet who may go through bouts and then find this in their own time and have it be

really helpful. I I want to ask just a couple more things, one of which is other than the work, which speaks for itself brilliantly, is there a message other than you are not alone to someone listening to this that as at some stage of their own journey that you were a message of hope that you can convey beyond what you've done already on film. Well, I think that sports has given us so many examples, and so

this is I think this is a good thing. That it's become a cliche, and I'm sure that that Jim Calvana would be would be pleased that people are using it who don't even know the origin of it, But that that I'm getting chills just in anticipation of saying it. Don't give up, don't ever give up, and and that that helped helped me along. And when when he was saying don't give up, don't ever give up, it it resonated.

And I remember my my brother saying that to me, and I I think the night of the show, and I may have said it on other times, but I meant every time I said it, And I feel like the night of the show, HBO is filming it, Apatow is backstage introducing me and my my brothers are there, and my best friends are there, and audience that that

has has been with me for years is there. Because it wasn't it wasn't a huge theater, so it was actually a difficult ticket to get, so you had to be a fan to even though the tickets weren't on sale. And so I had all these people there and I

and I said it, and I meant it. My only fear was that it would come off corny, and it was that I I had contemplated suicide sometimes for every moment I was awake for days on end, and I said, I am so glad I stuck around for this, and and it just it's it's laughable what I received just for sticking it out. It's it's absurd. If I had just had one audience full of these people, it would have been worth sticking around for because it felt so good.

But not only that HBO was there, and my family was there, my therapist was there, and Judd Apata was backstage. It was it was, it was silly. I literally pinched myself on on stage that night because it felt like

a dream. So it may not be that, but it also there are nights, and again I'm gonna come back to laughter, there are nights where you're out with your friends and and Kurt Vonnegut said that whenever you're feeling great, whether you just had sex, whether you just had a great meal or a great laugh, you should say to yourself, if this isn't nice, I don't know what is, and you should say it out loud as sort of a bookmark. We need to bookmark these these moments. And that was

one of those moments. And I know it didn't have to be that big because there was a there was a birthday. You're you're always going to get your birthday, and you're going to say to yourself is this isn't nice. I don't know what is. And it's worth sticking around for it, and and not giving up is the only way you can guarantee that you'll at least have the the chance. And I used to and my my, my wife was so crucial to this because she kept researching

developments in treating depression. She wasn't giving up. And and part of me was saying, just stay alive in case they cure this. Just stay in the game, in case they cure this. You don't have to do anything, just just read all day or sleep all day, but be alive when they cure this. And and and maybe that's the message. I know that was such a long, a long answer. And I hope I I I hope I hit on some of the messages during the You can go as long as you want for a message that important,

I think never giving up starts with that. Using gratitude as a bookmark, as Vonnegut said, for all those experiences in life that goes a long way. Gary, just just those two things, and there will be other audiences and other shows down the line. And I hope that um, you'll continue to to get the beautiful feedback and and

it's worth sticking around for all of it. And I think I am and your fans are more than grateful that you found it within yourself, heated the smart advice and got through as dark a time as you have, and you've stuck around, damn it, and you're here and you get you should enjoy it, and I hope you will as we are. Yeah, And I'm not saying it's to be to be flippant or or as a as a joke. I mean I knew that we would like each other and and I'm glad I stuck around so

that so that we we could connect like this. And I think that that will um will will connect in person some day and I look forward to that. Gary and I did have that face to face meeting recently a long walk through New York Central Park. I'll tell you, Gary Goalman, the walker has tremendous stamina. He went a lot farther than I did. I look forward to the next walk. For anyone struggling with mental health, there are

many sources of help out there. Psychology Today dot com and a p A dot org have resources to help you find a therapist. One website for people in crisis is Suicide Prevention Lifeline dot Org the phone number to seven three talk eight hundred to seven three eight to five. Both Gary and an Patrick sincerely hope that sharing their experiences will help others. If you know someone who might benefit from their examples, consider suggesting they check out these episodes.

Mental health needs much more candid conversation. As always, I'm grateful to my co executive producer Jennifer Dempster and our producer Jason whitehelp invite you to subscribe, rate, and review this podcast and I'll talk to you soon