WHAT’S JOHN McENROE REALLY LIKE?

academy in New York. That always inspires me. By the way, we recorded this just before the U S Open, Serena Swan Song and before Roger Federer's retirement, so my reaction to those big events are posted on my instagram. But, as you're about to hear, John is a man of many layers and great depth. I get asked all the time what's Mac and Roe really like? This will open that window pretty wide. So here's Johnny Mac. So, John,

we're at Wimbledon this summer. You call a match for ESPN, later call another match for BBC, which is a normal thing for you. Then we have a conversation and I say, Hey, a pearl jam tonight Hyde Park. You'RE gonna be able to make it? You said no, I don't think so. I gotta DO BBC Studio. It's kind of a bummer because I know you're a huge fan and a friend of the man. So I go to Hyde Park. It's this amazing show. Eddie vetter is inspired. The sunset, the

moon is rising. At the end of the show they play rocket in the free world, covering Neil Young's classic one verse into it. Enter stage left Johnny Mac, guitar strapped over his neck, playing with the band. I think like holy ship, you didn't know if you're gonna make the show and you're on stage with them. I mean they call that bucket list s up. Obvious for sure. So yeah, that was one of the few occasions. It's the only occasion in the open ear that one of

the men's semi was a default. So in this one case, even though I was very much looking forward to seeing curios playing the doll, when that didn't happen, then there wasn't really a late show I had to do. So whila, there I go. Actually, I played a show a few years back, just before the pandemic charity show where I played with my own band in Seattle, ironically, and Eddie came to the show with my buddy Chris Chelios, and I got him to come up and play a song.

It was only, you know, not sixty five thousand, admittedly, probably sixty five or maybe a hundred, uh, and Eddie sang rocking in the free world, ironically. So for me it was unbelievable to go. You know, I had that happened twice in the tournament, which is never happened before. First to go up on my wife's Patty's birthday to go see the eagles. She's played with Don and backed backed him up on a couple of albums. Or One of her biggest hits is with Don. And then he

asked me to play. Already gone at Hyde Park and then Eddie did. So I'm safe to say that I had a great Wimbledon. I'm glad to hear that, man, because it seems like at times calling matches of the world's greatest court, going on stage with Pearl GM, that's just like another day in your life. That's just that's just a regular day for you. Sometimes no, well, uh, no, that's not true. I've been fortunate to meet a lot

of great people associated with the music business. That's like my love, besides tennis and Sports, is playing the guitar music. Having the opportunity to meet these legends that I grew up idolizing and music is inspirational obviously keeps it going.

On a boring practice session, Blair some Nice Music, it keeps pumpsy off and then all of a sudden to see that like Keith Richards and, uh, not to drop any names here, but Robert planned, you know, and you meet these guys, I mean led Zeppein was my favorite

band growing up. The stones are amazing and you're sort of like on the city, you know, in some way you're sort of like looking at them eye to eye and they're like talking to like, Oh man, I really love what you do and this is incredible and and it's sort of like you pinch yourself, like could this really be happening? So I've got to admit that over the course of the last forty five years I've been very fortunate to been able to meet a lot of

great people and, you know, get respect, mutual respect, from them. Yeah, what I love about you is you're not jaded at anything and to have those experiences where you do kind of meet your idols and they say that's pretty tricky, right, to meet people that you idolize, but then, as you said, eye to eye and it's becomes not geeking out on them but a mutual admiration society, like they appreciate what you did. I mean still surreal when you think about that?

Or is it? UH, are you used to it? I think it's somewhere between surreal and you're used to it. I don't think you ever get totally used to it. Uh. I still just keep in mind you're a kid from Queens and here you are sitting standing next to Robert Plants. So it never gets old. It was the first time, like the very first time. You're there, there, you you led Zeppelin one, two, three or four. These are all

incredibly important albums to people sort of our age. And then boom, first time Robert Plant is sitting in front of you saying Hey, I like what you do, man. Uh, you know, trying not from sweating like like Albert Brooks and broadcast news, you know, where you're just slabbering over

him and I suppose. But you know, I actually saw it led Zeppelin at Madison Square Garden when I was probably fifth, fourteen or fifteen years old, and I remember thinking at the time it's like, why doesn't it sound like a song on the you know, on the reck her and you know, I realized through playing, starting to play guitar and for and just learning more about music that, you know, a lot of the Zeppelin songs had three four guitar parts on them, among other things, so it

was almost impossible to duplicate it. But it was still like magical in its own way to see them. And then I got a chance to see them years later when page and plant went out, ironically in Croatia, and that's, you know, one of the first times I got to speak to them. I mean Jimmy Page is like the Rock God. Obviously is one of the greatest guitar players

of all time. I happened to see him in a couple of situations, more not casual, but like where he was helping out like the Black Crows and doing stuff for them and being part of a benefit. We can talk to them a little bit more than hey, how you doing type of things. But Robert Plant UH. He actually came on my talk show. Most people don't know this, but I did have a talk show for six months back in two thousand four and he was nice enough during the US Open that year to come on my

show and do a bit. And I remember someone asked me, I don't think it was Robert, like, what your favorite Zeppelin Song, and I always worked on the song the guitar bringing on home. It's on the second album, but you know. So I sort of blurted that out because I was saying even though there's like fifty or a hundred other songs that I liked better, and then I realized it was a cover tune and I'm like, Oh my God, that was the old foot in my mouth on.

He was probably gone. Could he at least said Kashmir or stay away to heaven or something that, you know, we wrote? So that was rather embarrassing, but I luckily I got through it. I would have answered Kashmir. Now I think that, like a lot of people, I fanassy's about being a guitar hero. I friends tried to teach me, but a combination of lack of talent and lack of patients, that's usually not a formula for success in anything in life, especially something as tricky as guitar. But people try to

teach me. We're not all time legends, and you had what, as the story goes, Eddiev and Hey Allen, Carlos Santana maybe clapped in once or twice, trying to help you master the Guitar Um. Well, that's sort of true. You know, you sort of meet him and you're there to have a drink and then they pick up the guitar. Bill Wyman, the Bass player from the stones, was one of the first guys, and I really was, you know, I probably

didn't start. I was like one when I realized I was going to have a lot of time on the road on my hands, and he was sort of trying to teach me the one, four or five progression, which is like the most basic progression in music, like a

blues progression. I was having trouble mastery that. I soon after I went to Chicago where a buddy of mine, Gary Fencer, who played for the Chicago Bears, took me to this legendary Blues Club, the Checkerboard Lounge, buddy guys club, and so I saw a buddy guy play and I was just like, Oh my God, this guy is this amazing and I'd happened to travel with this guitar, this less Paul I had that I went the first guitar every bought. I was like God, this thing is really heavy.

I don't get this. They're so heavy. And I watched him playing. I'm like what in God's name? and My waisting, my time playing the guitar. When you see this, I had this big hotel room. I have to admit I don't know why I got it in. In Chicago was we were playing at the arena near the airport and I snatched the guitar the Smithereens in my hotel room. I was like, forget it, it's hopeless, don't even bother. And so for a couple of years I really didn't play.

But then I realized, Oh my God, if you pick up a strata or telly telecaster, those are a lot lighter and sort of got renewed hope that I could do it and played, you know, on and off, because it's actually sort of tiring, like mentally if nothing else, when you know I'm trying to focus all my energies in tennis. Wasn't doing it a whole lot. At the end of my career I decided, Um, I gotta start playing more and actually put a band together. I was,

I called my myself the most traveled unsigned band in history. Um, we went all over the world. We're in Japan, you know, I sort of connected with tennis ex editions basically, but we're going to South America, Japan, Hawaii, Europe on four occasions. It was unbelievable. I got plenty of you suck, you know. Um. And then I started going out with Patty Smite, my wife, and and she was sort of disillusioned at that time and the music business been it on the road with

Rod Stewart, had sold had a platinum record. Uh, but she sort of felt like, and I'm sure to the degree still true, of changing. But you know, they don't treat the women rockers the way they do the guys. So she's and so I go, Hey, I got an idea. I bring a lot of energy and I'm playing. We should join, we should play in a band together. And then she looked at me for a second. She and she said, uh, yeah, and we should play mixed doubles

at Wimbledon. And I go, uh, you don't play tennis and she goes exactly, and I'm like, okay, that's sort of you know, sent the message. And for a while actually I was playing, and then there was finally one festival I went to in Belgium, it's like one of these summer festivals, where I was playing and it was only for rock and for the music. And when I came back and she said to me and goes, okay, we've got this. Uh, we're about to have a daughter together.

We've got four between us. If anyone's gonna play music, it's me, not you. Okay, so you were back towards the tennis. I'll try to take care of the music game, but I have taken if I have time, taking care of all these kids. That's a that's a great story, and now she met it with love. But it's kind of an ouch thing too, when somebody put you in

your place. You know, the tennis racket was like a natural extension of your left arm and and maybe of your soul was the guitar are a little bit less connected, it was a little bit less innate as you tried to master that. Well, I'm gonna Bring Patty back into this for a second because she had a very simple phrase that she used for the way I played guitar. She said I wrestled it into submission. So that is not what you would call a major compliment, but you

win when you're wrestling into submission. At least you win. It doesn't look pretty, but you got the w yeah, well, that's the way. You know. As as I've gotten older, Chris, I'm certainly trying to look at the glass half full more often. So that's the way I try to look at that particular phrase. I do love it. It's a it's a great outlet. I'm better than I ever was. Admittedly, it's somewhat low bar. The pandemic allowed me to play more guitar than I've ever played. Obviously was cooped up

in one place. I was fortunate up one of my buddies is enraging against the machine, and we trained all the time and we hung out all the time, him anyway, not really musically. I Jam with him and Brad The drummer a couple of times and been in watching rage rehearse and sat or seeing them, but now it's just

playing like the two of us. So I'd actually got a lot more time where I was actually playing with Tim and he was playing drums, ironically, not base, and every now and then he'd be like he in the middle of I'd be all pumped up, I'd be playing a song and all of a sudden he'd stopped me, goes, you're fucking time's off, your time's off, and he'd scream at me and I'd be like to Um and but he was right, of course, like a the time, and so the one out of ten where I'd be like

it was you, not me. Okay, so, and he's not even playing his natural instrument. But it was something that Patty had well is saying. You know, you know, you can sing and key, you're okay, you know your guitars getting better, but your time is a little you know, and you can imagine in your head and those guitars people that have hard to play or try when you're actually stinging, maybe two and you're trying to think of other things and think ahead and the words and you're

listening to the other people in your band. I mean it's let's put it this way. It gave me an appreciation for how great the people that I was watching. You mentioned Pearl Jam and the Eagles and the police. You know, Trios in particular, because I've been playing recently more as a trio the police. Uh Stevie, Ray Vaughan when he played ZZ top Jimmy Hendrix. Yeah, exactly exactly. You know, I've always limelight. Has always been a goal of mine to play. Good luck singing it, not to

mention playing it. I mean if I could play the guitar solo uncomfortably Numb the David Gilmar played, I think I love my job, as you do, but I think I'd walk away from the give I just had the ability to do that. I think I would trade everything

for that. Your seven Grand Slam titles and singles. Uh. Someone said, Hey, John, you gotta, you gotta give those back, but you're gonna have this, the kind of Sublime Guitar Talent that a lot of your heroes have, and that's gonna be an ability that you'll have for your life. You trade it. Oh God, that's a tough one. You know, honestly, I think deep down in my heart of hearts, I made the right call. I Love Sports, I really do.

I mean sports was my life growing up as a kid. Um, so it's hard to say that of course, it's tempting to say if you were David Gilmour, it's not only was a beautiful guy and a legendary guitar player, but he had an absolutely beautiful voice on top of everything else. So he had the whole package. So it would be hard to say no, I don't want with David Gilmore.

Some of these other guys had these all time great like the the Solo, you know when the two guys trade in Hotel California, like, okay, this is you know this, that's this stuff where you know they're up there with the Rafa's in the no Vak Rogers. You know, that's the all time legendary Solos ever in rock and roll Um, and they lived a life that like it was almost I remember times because I try to keep up with some of these guys sometimes and it was certainly fun trying.

But there was a certain point I was like, okay, too good. You know, he's guys Keith, you're too good man, but but I'm I gotta go to bed, you know. So I think I think I made the right call. Art's been important to people have called you an artist for the racket. I know that that's a compliment you love. I mean the artistry is something that really, to some degree,

cannot be taught or coached. It's just innate. Is the way you played have anything to do with the way you connected with people who express themselves creatively, whether it's a musician or a painter? Yeah, you know, I'd like to think so. You're absolutely the greatest complin ever got was that you you're like an artist out there Um, and I think that that's something, hopefully, that people remember, that I brought to the table. Uh so absolutely. I

connected them for a number of reasons. One when I was fortunate enough to have enough money to be able to afford to buy a car. And in our day, Chris, you're you're a little younger than me, but uh, you know, you cared about like the sound system, you had like the speakers, and that then a lot. That was like the second biggest thing. And then if you could have

an apartment, it was like, wow, I've got it. You'd have uh, you'd I haven't made but after that, you know, when I first started going around with my late great buddy beatus Carolitis, he started taking me in a lot of artists studios and galleries in Soho, which is in downtown New York, and I got an opportunity to meet artists and I was like wow, it just made me feel better and when I started to buy art and collected to walk down the stairs in the morning and

take a look at some be sort of sort of inspirational, the way you hope to be as as as an athlete, the way you want to pump someone up. Or I'm here at my tennis academy right now hoping that, you know, some of these kids will be inspired by by me being here. Um. And the other part of the art that I really respect is they're out there on an island like a tennis player. They're by themselves. You walk into a show, it's sort of like you walk out.

What could possibly be better? Then walk into the Center Court of Wimbledon, for example, and doing your things? Well, that is sort of similar if an art if you walk into this show and it's packed and people are like wow, this is incredible. On the other side of the coin, what could be worse? If you go out in the wimbled instead of court and you lay an egg and you just feel like you're two FT tall? And then, the same as art you know the guts to go there and some of the other sucks. It's terrible.

You know, I don't understand this abstract stuff. I don't. He doesn't paint well enough. So you know you're putting yourself out there. The other people would be comedients, like stand ups. Those group of people I feel more connected to, perhaps than any other entertainment type of people. Yeah, they can. To continue the parallel. You know, you are out there by yourself and and and many artists, like many athletes, are somewhat tortured at times in their life. And and

sadness and anger can be great sources of inspiration. Many great paintings, just like many great songs, have become from a place of anger. Um, anger has played a role in your life. We'll talk about that perhaps later. But do you gravitate towards art that expresses intense emotions, where you know and can relate to what the artist is going through when you see the canvas and you know he's poured himself out there and it's not always pleasant,

but it's compelling. Yeah, absolutely ensure. Yes, UM, totally gravitate towards more uh type of art like that, something that's thought provoking that makes you think, that can inspire. Sometimes I don't know what that artist is going through. I don't know. Sometimes you may not know yourself what you're

exactly what's happening within at a certain time. But there's no question that that is the type of art that I've, you know, collected over the years, the type of art that I think is ultimately going to have more of an impact on society in general and that's what we continue to need. And you know, musicians it's tougher. You know, I've been with my wife Twenty eight years and it sort of feels like, from what I see with her, that you write more often, like you said, when it's

things are sort of down or they're not. You know, it's easier to write sort of songs like that than upbeat, peppie songs, you know, so and and and it feels like it's sort of a shame because then that's sort of you. The biggest thing for me is I want my other have to be happen, you know, and fulfilled, and in certain ways that doesn't necessarily help help her

and what her job is. Uh, I felt like, Um, you know, I was on top of the world and I think to myself, you know, at that moment, I mean I had this documentary coming out and he says, you know, I'm the greatest player ever played. I point out that was, you know, almost thirty eight years ago. Uh, you know, I wish I could say that now, but I can't. But at that time I was like on top of the world and certainly part of it was amazing,

but part of it wasn't that amazing. You know, there was there was a void in the and so it's your your to find that sweet spot that you need to get to and as a human being and as an athlete, is tricky, as as we're witnessing now with, I'll give you an example, Naomi Osaka, Nick Curios, trying to find his, you know, ability. You just to go out there and, you know, give a consistent effort, and it hasn't been easy for they even try all the time.

So there's a lot more to it than meets the I so, uh, I'm actually thankful that over the course of time, I've done it with you for many years. But as a commentator, yes, you're a backseat driver, but you also want to be supporter as best you can, as long as you see people giving that all out effort.

That's the one thing I really don't like. But if you do, I feel like hopefully I can tell the people watching that will get them better to better understand what's going on in the head of some of these individuals. Sometimes it can be unbelievably easy when it's all working, but most of the time it isn't. You talked about the void. You use that word. Many people believe that achievement can fill the void. Success can fill the void, money can feel the void. Sometimes they find it's like

the exact opposite. For you. What was that the void or of the sense of something was missing, or the challenge? Did he get bigger and tougher as the fame grew, as the ranking got better, as the spotlight got brighter? Yes, uh, something crazy happened when I thought, Um, things were just going so great for me personally. Uh, my greatest rival I ever had biord board at years old, after I beat him at the US Open to even our head to head career record at seven and seven and seven,

decided he was never going to play another major. That to me was like beyond belief that like that was even possible. I remember when he said it to beat. Garylitis and I were in an exhibition in Australia. We were about to go down to the press conference, having a beer before and Boran says us, you know, I'm I'm retiring, and we started laughing. We thought he was kidding. We're like, what the hell are you gonna do? You

know what, we don't know what else to do. Um. And he said something to the effect of like someday you'll understand, um. And so I'm not sure I totally ever understood it. Um, I get it certainly a lot more because he'd been doing a lot longer and maybe he was burnt out. But the all that sort of attention that he had was shifted towards me because people were afraid to sort of look at the reasons as to why he was doing that and try to help

him through that. In my you know, that to me was a horrible thing to happen in tennis, and so that the pressure in a way was amped up more and more on me because they didn't know where else to turn their attention to and I was easy pickings in a way. And so that went on for a handful of years and then when I met my ex wife who at that time hadn't done a movie. TAKETUM my x yfe tatum O'Neil hadn't done a movie in

four or five years. I didn't realize, you know, I might be an idiot, but I didn't think that the some of the two parts was gonna be so much bigger than US two as individuals. And all of a sudden it became even a bigger thing that I I must say I had difficulties handlings that would that would allow me to play to the best of my ability,

particularly since I wanted to and did have kids. So that Juggling Act made it a bit overwhelming for me from that point forward, even though I tried many different ways to try to get better. You know, I didn't stop playing for six months, which is not that unusual now. Nadal just didn't play for six months and won the Australian opening, for God's Sakes, at thirty five years old.

I was twenty six and seven and turn turn twenty seven when I started to take the time off, and I felt like I did it for the right reasons. The plan was to get better. How bad did I feel when I never I never even got to the same level, much less got better. So that wasn't easy to take. Uh Um, and then as you decide, like

as an athlete, some people can handle. I remember in nine five, which was just before I took this about it, I did a series of exhibitions with porn and he he was like I remember thinking I was really burnt out and my wife, ex wife, was pregnant. I'm like, I'm not going to Australia, I stan't and I gotta regroup. He goes, no, no, you can go. If you win Australia and the masters, you you'll still be number one. And I had lost the Lendel in the finals of

the open and lost. You wimbled in and I was it wasn't looking good, you know, it looked like landels of me number one. He talked me into in a way and and I thought I said at the time. I said, you know, it's not that bad to be too in the world. I could live with that for, you know, a year or a couple of years. He goes, it doesn't matter if you're two or a hundred. So you know, it's sort of the psyche of the person.

I think it does matter personally, you know, I'd rather be too than a hundred, but he wanted to be all or nothing, you know. So you see how people operate in different ways. So I sort of went along for six, seven years. Chris. Honestly, we're deep in you know, it's a horrible feeling and tough to it even at now. But I sort of knew I wasn't gonna win, you know, the anywhere close to the level. I was maybe Never

gonna win anyone. I kept hoping, you know, get one more and I knocked on the door a couple of times but never did. That was that's pretty disappointing. Yeah, but you persevered, which most people, I mean you're never had to deal with playing tennis after the peak of his powers on the crest, because he stepped out. As you said, it's twenty five is on top. Typically athletes grind away and try to, you know, regain recapture some of that, as you did, and it wasn't like you

fell apart. I think you made the semis of your last Wimbledon right and the US Open you were right there. You're still contending. You weren't losing Um, you know, in the first round to some uh, him and Egger. So you you were competitive to the end, but that, but you're saying that really ate at you because you had been number one and it just it was it was tough to abide the slightly eroding skills and results. Yeah, but,

you know, I must say it was. It still was a hell of a way to make a living, you know, in a way. And so I'm thinking, don't you know, you know, despite your nose, that you know, cut off your nose, despite your face, or whatever the phrases, you know. So I was sort of like, well, let's just keep at this, maybe maybe you'll get like and it turned out, you know, at the time and like, who the hell are these guys? Oh, Pete Sampras, loose end in the SIS,

not a bad players. Andre Agassie, not too shabby. currier was, you know, that was the last guy ever played at the US Open. Cost Him in my last open in the round of sixteen. Well, he was pretty good there for a couple of years. So these weren't, you know, hacks. I was losing too, but it was, you know, sort of like Whoa. Okay, this is not the easiest thing, but and I had a growing family, so it was. I gave it the best shot I had under the circumstances.

That time wasn't good enough, obviously, um, but I felt like generally, all in all, I feel proud that I've tried to make the best decisions I possibly could at the time. I didn't anticipate at the end of my final year, that I get it, you know, get divorced, for example, you know, as an example. So that threw everything off for you know, even further. So, you know, we could go on and on, but I think all at all, for the most part, uh, and I'll start with my present wife, Patty, I made a series of

pretty good decisions. Yeah, I'd say so. Um, you were taught early on, John, perfectionism as an example from your parents. It's hard to rewire yourself when you are a perfectionist, I think. I think chasing achievement and relentless improvement isn't quite the same thing as being a perfectionist, where it rips you up to not be one out of a hundred. A lot of perfections. I don't know that they're they're super happy whatever walk of life they're in. How has

that been for you? Sort of the the pursuit of perfection and trying to balance that off with a happy life. Um, yeah, I think I'd like to take pride in the fact that I've tried to sort of wean myself off that in essence to a degree that I don't want to put that type of expectation on myself every single day

in my life. Some of my kids may tell you otherwise at times, Um, and certainly I have high expectations for them, as as as I continue to do for myself, but I just think that at a certain point there was a course in economics, course where, you know, they talked about law of diminute. She returns and I you know, I don't want to spend my entire life where like I'm not living up to what I think I can.

I want to sort of look at the class half full and, you know, look at this journey that I've taken and feel like this has been a hell of a ride, instead of like what could have, would have should have. You know, I could sit there and tell you about what I should have done in the tennis court.

I could sit there and tell you I should have held on a lot of art pieces that I bought that, you know, would have been a hell of a lot more valuable had I held onto him, and I probably in a way, and I don't want it to be that way where you lose sleep over that, over more than some of the losses you had while I was playing. Everyone thinks it's like and I've been lucky. I want to say that that I've made you more money than I ever thought I would and I continue to be

able to make a great living. Uh, and I would be doing a disservice to the kids at my academy, my own is, and a lot of other people if I'm sitting there whining about what I should have done instead of being, you know, talking about like what we talked in the beginning. I just was on stage a month ago with Pearl Jam in front of Sixty Thou people, with Chris Fowler taking a picture for me. Thank you. Hey.

I happened, just happen to have a glass of water in my hand which is is just about half full, and that's an expression you use a couple of times, right, and I know you use it a lot, and it's just a way of looking at life where you're focusing on what you have and not what you lack, and it's a beautiful perspective. Sometimes it takes a lot of us a little time to arrive there. Some people never

get there, unfortunately. What was the moment John of the period time where you began to look at things more optimistically and and I don't know if sunny disposition is a phrase I used, but I just in terms of hey, things are good, let's not focus on this part of the glass that's empty when I'm lacking. You know, when I had children, I think that I looked at life in a different way, even though my results were there. I loved having kids, Um and I wanted pretty desperately

to show that it wasn't about them. That the reason I wanted. I screwed up, you know, it's not their fault, obviously, but that sort of changed my perspective, even though I was getting hammered in in some ways in my own hand by others. Why is he not one or two in the world? He's eight in the world of ten or whatever the hell he is. Um and I suppose Um. You know, going through a divorce is really painful. Um

and I just feels lost, at least I did. Um. I remember when I met a Patty Um and then subsequently matter one a Christmas Day of n didn't see her until September of did not see her one time, and I was playing, Um, Andre Agassi an exhibition in Phoenix five days after he won the US Open that year, and I'm sure that Andre I and well deserved was, you know, celebrating his win, so he wasn't too worried about, you know, the match he was playing against me in

Phoenix five days later. But I beat him, you know, and I hadn't played for the better part of two years, you know, closing in on two years. So you know, I was feeling all high and mighty about myself, pretty good about it, and that's when I called Patty up again because I was going to l a for a few days and Um, at that time I went out with her. She and and we had a date and

I was like, I think there's something about this. The next day, Chris, I went up to play this charity match, uh, with Michael Chang's charity, and right before I went on the court, they told me beat us had died and I just went completely numb. And I'm telling you, I would have beaten anyone in the world. Six may I could have beaten Shang one in one. That day, I

just was so numb that you don't even think. And I called Patty up because I was coming back to L A and I was like, you know, I I want to be with you tonight, and she's like Hey, wait, hold on, slow down here. You know, thinking, you know, there was some guy just wants to you know, you can imagine the rest. and to me it was more not that that wasn't something that I thought would be a good idea, but at the same time I wanted to be with her because I needed I was just

was like completely overwhelmed. And I think right after that, after that horrible thing that happened with Vitas, I started to think to myself, this is the time where you've got to make, you know, really make more of an effort, and I started to feel like I was. I was able to turn the tables in my life, slowly but surely, but that was certainly one of the big moments for me, you know, and over the course of time, Um, I think I've each year I think I've done a little

better better job of it. So, you know, basically wean myself off that. You know, whether it's being or perfectionist. I mean it's not like you never you ever lose that, but I'm a little soft now in the tennis court. You know, I don't go for the kill like that. You know, how can I do it now? But over the course of time. And maybe that's not the worst thing, because I think I got to be uh UH. You know, empathy wasn't my strongest suit. So it was my weaknest

suit actually. So I think I've gotten better in in areas that I was weaker at and been able to appreciate. You know, for quite a few years when I was doing commentary, I uh was people would come up to me the first probably ten fifteen years and they'd be like, you know something, you're a better commentator than you are a player. I wouldn't justice God, how dare you say what? And then I thought to myself I was a pretty

damn good tennis player. If they're saying that I'm better at tennis, at comments in them at tennis, that's a hell of a compliment. You So, you idiot, take it is one. So it took probably about ten years for me sink in, but that's made me appreciate what I've been doing with you and a few others over the course of the last even twenty more, because now it's been but I think it's my thirties US Open. That's important to to understand the compliment more than the insult,

because sometimes you can take it either way. But inside them, I think yeah, John, I think it's fair to say that you know, number one ranked tennis player in the world commentator right right there as well. So you're to be it to achieve two different careers that are related but different, ultimately different. Um playing is not the same as talking about it, and and to be able to to get to the pinnacle in a couple of different UH professions and can still be improving it after sixties

is cool. As I said before, I mean I work with a lot of really talented, really interesting people, quote unquote, characters. I guess you'd be in the character club. I mean that's a compliment to me, better than lands on a bit just there. But in terms of Um working with you, I it is so cool to see that is an all time great and something that's been doing as long as you have. You still approach a routine match with passion and Energy and interest and and that's not something

that ought to be taken for granted. I mean it is so cool to be able to share the space when, you know, or just a routine second round match at some tournament. It is not a piece of tennis history. You'RE gonna be written on that court that day, but you still you get fired up for it. So and it's it's it's very cool. I absolutely think that's, you know, the biggest thing that I should bring to the table. It's an energy and a passion for it, you know,

no matter what it is. I think that's what people want and that's what I want. You know, that's what I brought to the table. I think that's what separated me for a while out a tennis score. What it wasn't like here. You here. I don't look like Raphae and the doll a whole lot with my guns. You know, if you know what I'm saying. Um. So I had to try to hopefully intimidate different ways. And what way would that be? Bring that energy that they would they would feel on the other side of the net and

throw them Um. So that is certainly something I tried to bring the table. Comments or I would like, you know, and I got a couple of sports enemy's, I think in Um Britain, uh with with the BBC, but I didn't get when I got nominated. Now no one cares about Santis, apparently. So we don't even get dominated. Or maybe we're not as good. No, we are as good.

But at one time I was at the words show, it makes me think, and I was at a table that NBC used to be called, obviously you remember, before espn did it Wimbledon and the French and so I was sitting at the table and I was sitting next to Dick Enberg, and so I was up against John Madden, who wanted like twenty times or whatever in a row

or whatever, and a few other people. And so they go, Ladies and gentlemen, the best color commentator is John Matt and Dick turned to me and goes to congratulations and it's like Madus Great Dick Emberg. He called it game, set, match of a little too earlier there. That said, well, I don't that's the only time I said, oh Myn as someone who's not been shower with the with with the trophies, I can tell you that's that's not about that.

So don't don't worry about that. I think you're gonna the lack of the lack of a sports emmy is is you're gonna be okay. You know, just the number. We talked about some rock stars and artists, but just the number of interesting people, John that, that have come into your orbit. They continue to. What are Harrelson sitting in the Green Room with you and Patty the other

day Wimbledon? It's just so interesting that these people you know, they respect what you did, they connect with you, they want a pc of you, they want a PC of your time, they want to say they know you. I mean that's that's interesting to to have that, whether it's ex fleets, you mentioned a few of the people of all sorts of orbits you've had a chance to interact

with and learn from and observe. You know what, the greatest thank you for that, and it's the greatest perk I ever got by far, is this is the opportunity to meet sort of these extremely interesting people in different walks of the entertainment business, whether it's other athletes that I've become friends with over the years. Some of them I met younger than other others I didn't. In all the different sports, and then you got the movie stars, uh,

and you got the musicians. Uh. There was one person that topped at all of those by far, M I. One of the best decisions I ever made was in nineteen eighty when I was offered a million dollars to go play Borg and apartheid South Africa, that sort of fake homeland they came up with to start to make it look like they were treating blacks fairly. And I I chose not to go down there and I never went there and I feel like I've gotten a lot of support over the years from the African American community.

That makes me feel great that even some of them aware of the fact that I didn't go there. But eventually parts I'd ended and I um and Nelson Mandela was elected president and so there was a seniors event I went to in Joe Burg and long story short, I went to have an opportunity. I Yannick Noah, who was with me, and Biorn Borg and we got an opportunity to go to Nelson Mandela's home where he lived

as the president, and I came. I brought one of my rackets, Chris, and I had, you know, the wood rackets from like the night eighty one, which the last years I played with. I think eighty two is the last year, but and I brought it, I gave it to Nelson Mandela and I saw him hold that. He had the most beautiful hands that I had ever shook

hands with my life. It just he sort of felt like an angel on earth and he said to me at one point, he said it's an honor to meet you, and I thought to myself, Oh my God, I'd give ten million dollars if I had this on tape right now to these people that are, you know, going after me. That Nelson, you know, of course I was, you know,

feeling that with him. Are you kidding me? But that was probably the greatest individual sort of minute, one of the greatest of my life when, you know, he said that he's like and then he followed that up with Um, you know, I listened to your match, the match you played against you and Borg at Wimbledon in or whatever, and I thought to myself, this guy was in Robin's island for twenty seven years and I'm sitting there complaining about a line called and he doesn't seem to have

an ounce of bitterness about anything. That happened to me and I'm like, how is this even possible? This is like the greatest human being I ever met. So I guess in some ways it was um it was for me and unbelievable a moment to be able to meet him. I not that you know, meaning a lot of these other people, whether it's, you know, Jack Nicholson, for example, and my he was like my all time favorite actor. You go down the list. I've been lucky, but that

topped everything. Yeah, I guess it would. I mean, as the story goes, Mandela convinced the guards at Robin Island to put your match with Borg on BBC radio. It meant that much to him that he would try to press and get a favorite out of him because he just wanted to hear on the radio and have to imagine you playing Borg at Center Court. I can't imagine anything cooler than that. That it meant that much to him. Yeah, so you know, it's tough to it's tough to go.

Where do you go from there? But you know it's of all the people, I mean these people. Okay, Mandela was impressed and set up an honor to meet you. Who Have you run into? That was totally unimpressed and then you're you're excited to meet them and you just get nothing. Um. Well, you know, we've been talking throughout this podcast about how we want to keep the glass half full here. We don't want to go to, you know,

the people that blew me off. So sometimes empty half pretty interesting that I don't want to think about that. I'll tell you about the worst human being I ever that was when we played David's Cup in two thousand and one year. I was captain. We went to Zimbabwe and we had to go to Robert Mugabi's palace because I'm not exactly sure why, because he's the president or whatever,

and this guy had to be five feet tall. In his hands was like he poured a bucket of water in his hands and shook our hands and he was sweating and it was so bizarre, like, and this is even before they realized how palacious of person he was. Um. So that would easily be the as I'm saying this, I'm trying to think of people that blew me off, but I don't want to do that. I'm not going there. I'm sorry. You refused to say who blew you off and you're still it's just but is that pride or what?

You don't want to make them look bad. No, it's more like I don't want to put out the energy, the effort to think about it, you know, because I'm in too good a place. I can understand that, John. Let's not put energy on negative stuff. But what? What? I just joined the club that you've been in a couple of years. So, so when you're sixty you're supposed to have wisdom, you're supposed to have perspective, you're supposed to have learned a couple of things. I mean, how

do you think you know, reaching this stage of your life? Um, yeah, you lose a step on the court and some things physically as an as an athlete. I know that's something that's difficult to reconcile for a lot of people. But what what do you feel great about being despite you know, the alternative is not good to you know, walking around at sixty three, you could be underground. What what do you feel great about reaching this stage and and and

still improving in areas? Um, I feel great about the fact that I at least you know, I'm in my book, that I have improved that little bit, whether it's you know how I've dealt with my own children, in my own relationships, my perspective, all those things. You know, obviously when you're sixty three you're, you know, a shelley yourself physically, but I still love to get out there. I love to try to work out, to get the kids, rile the kids up once in a while show them whose boss.

So that part when I can't do that's a little bit tough. But you know, I think, Um, I've tried to for I would say for ten years, because I played on the main circuit for fifteen and for the better part of the next I was actually playing more seniors champion, whatever event do you want to call that. Then I was commentating. Even so, I recognized that that's a great drug. You know. It's UH, one of the best drugs you can have that you get paid for something.

You know, what's the expiration data most athletes? It's pretty damn quick. So if you think, you know, you can make it forty years, say, doing something and playing on a fairly regular basis, uh, it would be my duty to look at that like half full. But I was working hard for the course of the past ten years to sort of Wean myself off that addiction so that it would get to the stage where I'd be able to handle it when I didn't play anymore, and I think I've done pretty well at that. So I I

take pride in that. I feel good about that, um, because that's something that you could easily get caught up in and just you know, I didn't want to be like Mr McEnroe, please come this way, you need to exit the court now or other we're gonna pull you off it, and it was getting closer, Um, so you gotta leave it to the other people just at some point. You know, I've really enjoyed the comments and I've I'm

thinking I want to do another great run. You know, they're five years, whatever it is, Um, and then hopefully, you know, I want to go out like on a high, though you know, I don't want to be the same with that. You know, I feel like it's been good to me. Hopefully I've been good to the people I've worked for, but you want to go out and in a positive note for everyone. So that would be part

of that. And the opportunity to do almost anything and more of a quiet where you can be on the beach in California a bit and sort of you know that Yin and Yang is great. Uh. So I you know, I've worked hard to get to the point where I feel like I want to enjoy myself as much as possible and put in emphasis on that and spend time with the people I want to be around, not with things that I have to do, uh, for reasons that don't have much you know, and they're not important enough

to take serious, like just because it's money, for example. Uh, that would be one. So, you know, I think I've done a pretty good job going in that direction. For a while, when you played, a sense you were not one that would go from the hotel room to the Court of the gym to the restaurant, the same one every night. You you seem to value experience. You understood that. You know, it's a big world out there. There's more

to it than tennis. So many players today, so many athletes today, limit themselves and I don't think they take in what the world has to offer, even though they're being you know, if they're flying around a these amazing places in the world, they don't they don't sense the possibility or they think that even embracing that's going to

detract from their chances of winning a title. You're still pursuing experiences and sort of embracing what's going you're going to Antarctica to play a match with your brother Patrick this winter, the first ever matched down there, and we were talking you're you're just excited about that, the boat trip, just being in Antarctica. You seem to still have kind of a thirst and a passion for new experience and in the big wide world out there, that's definitely gonna

be a new experience for me. I'm not a big boat guy, so you know, I don't want to get seasick, but that sounded like something like a bucket list thing, you know, and that's I've had a couple of is this year and the music side of things Um, and I've traveled to parts of the world. That's one of the great things that being a tennis player is that you do see a lot of the world that you

never would otherwise see. But it is true. I'd like to tell you that I was able to sort of, you know, do everything while I was playing, but I remember somewhat early on in my career I'd be going out and I loved art we've talked about that, and go to galleries and museums and see things. That gets tiring mentally, you know, and I found that, like you,

would fatigue me. So I actually had to back off on that and some of the things I would have wanted to do, and I would have wanted to meet with people, whether they're politically or otherwise, to try to learn more about the city. That I felt like I wasn't able to do. As a matter of fact, I did sort of pushed uh, I had this idea of

doing a sort of a travel show. Obviously, the pandemic hit and that cut some of that off, but maybe the interest level to do but go to the places that I've been to that I hadn't really seen in the way I would have wanted to, and to meet the people in Stockholm, for example, meet people in situations that were out of the ordinary for me and so that I could continue to learn. I thought that the

interesting for a network. Apparently it wasn't that interesting because it hasn't happened yet, but nonetheless there are there is part of me that felt like I could have done more, but I don't. You know. Again, that's another perfect example. Like well, I should have done this. You know, Hindsights, obviously, and it takes a lot of emotional effort to go out and do your thing and try to play up

to the ability. Even when I was playing the champions tour, I felt like it took everything I had to try to do the best I could. And so you sort of are stuck a little bit into that hotel type of airport type thing. I was gonna do the first one, the first episod so where it would just be airport to airport to hotel to tendersport back and do the whole first episode like that and said, people seeing this is my life. Oh, just kidding, there's actually gonna be

more to this, but hasn't gotten off the ground yet. Well, I can't imagine that there's much left on the bucket list, but then again, a lot of us never scratch everything off the list because you just add new things on there. John. But I think that in terms of people that I know of her or no, uh, a life that's been, it continues to be, well lived and interesting and fulfilling and rarely boring, uh, and fun. I hope you hope

you understand that. If that's what it's about you. You're doing great man, and then you're an inspiration to me and a lot of other people in that area. Well, I appreciate that. You know, I I do feel very fortunate. Um, I do feel like some of it. You know, maybe I'm not so dumb after all. You know, maybe I know, I know what I'm talking about a little bit. Maybe I could get some of these kids their parents at my tennis academy to listen to me. You store, what

do you know about tennis now? The game's changed a little more to it than just how you hit up forehand. Yes, as you heard, there's a lot more to John than tennis. Along those lines, I recommend you check out the excellent new documentary McEnroe on showtime. It traces the whole arc, how the legend was born but, more importantly, how he continues to grow and evolve. John told me that's what he was hoping the film would do. We hope you enjoyed my conversation with John. Encourage you to rate and

review and subscribe. It really helps us. As always, my thanks to co Executive Producer Jennifer dempster and editor Jason White Hilt. You've got more guests coming up in season five of foul. Who you got, and check out our catalog of back episodes. I'll talk to you soon. One