TRUE GRIT

would recognize me. And he was like, but what you know, what if we changed everything, changed the way you look? And I said, oh no, then yeah, I mean I wouldn't want to be I don't get any It's like a bully picking on the low kid. It doesn't do anything for me. He was like, no, we should do it. We should do an article, and so he flew into Indianapolis,

where we live. We um George made some call, my ex had made some calls, and we picked a Mark who was coming out of a bar across town and we had Rake be like my pimp daddy, and you know, he had like a wife beater shirt and the Navy bowling hat. And you know, God knows what. And and I had put on a black you know, I mean like an auburn red wig and glasses and like skin tight like one piece denim with my Newport's cigarettes and

my you know, spurn off eyes. And we hustled a guy to eventually lose all the money in his pocket, which was about seven and eventually he gave it back after the story, and it was it was great, but it was one of his pieces. I love that the Black Widow spins her web in disguise and then gives the mark his seven hundred bucks back. But how did the shy daughter of Korean immigrants who had a severely curved spine was bullied transformed into the black Widow. It

goes to this episode's title, true Grit. Jeanette Lee embodies it the courage, resilience, relentless drive. Coming up, she tells a story of pain tolerance that's up there with anything I've heard in thirty five years covering athletes in all sorts of sports. But each and every day Jeanette gets

by on grit and toughness. My other guests, Jay billis ESPNS lead college basketball analyst and an attorney has steadied toughness and wrote a best seller on it, drawing from examples of the toughest people he's known from all backgrounds.

You talk about a positive influence that what you know what in my life is so difficult, in such an obstacle that I can't deal with it with the positive attitude that a young woman with a geoblastoma had, like I can't match that attitude with the tiny little molehill obstacles I have when she had that the scale that that was another one for me just in writing the book that I said, man Um, I may think I've I've got a little bit of toughness in me, but

it's not close to Sabrina Lewandowski. Later, Jay offers valuable ideas on developing mental toughness. But first Janette Lee and they're empowering example. It's a unique journey. At age twelve, the course of her life change when she developed scoliosis sideways curvature of the spine. Jeanette's case was severe and debilitating to eighteen inch metal rods were implanted in her back. She says it was excruciating physically and emotionally, something that

is not known to be a lethal disease. But it is something that really affects your life, not just in the way that you look, which you know, a lot of it happens more girls than boys. Um, you discovered a lot of times in your early teams are just in your early childhood development. And and to then see that and be it. For me, it was when I was like twelve, So you're just starting to like boys and just starting to form your own identity and you know,

start worrying more about what you look like. And and for me, actually in New York, being born and raised in Brooklyn, New York, it was an all black neighborhood, and so I was the minority, and I was the one ching chong chali wang and all this stuff, you know, going to school, and so I already felt very much

like an outcast, you know what you mean. And so then now you know, having to have this major spinal fusion and where this giant cast and then for the next year this big plastic brace, and um, it was. It was definitely the worst time of my life to that point. And those are some serious challenges. You talked about it, feeling racism as a kid, being bullied, feeling different, not to mention dealing with a whole lot of pain, and I'm sure experts telling you you're not gonna be

able to do this. It became about what you can't do, the limitations, and not what you can do. So what got you through that? I remember back then, Um, I'm a Christian. My whole family was raised as Christians, and

my my mom has always been a devout Christian. And I remember her saying to me when I was laid up in bed, you know, after surgery and being miserable and feeling like the world is so unfair and why is this happening to me, and her saying let us pray, and her saying, well, God has a great plan for you. And like any teenager got shut up, Mom, you don't understand,

you don't know what it's like. And and she just kept saying that sometimes we may not understand why something happens, but it that God has a greater plan, right, And so I wasn't buying into that. It was just life stinks, everything's unfair. And then later I continued on um, and she always said, you have gifts and you have to be open to discovering what that is. And you can't

do it feeling sorry for yourself on your couch. You need to go out, get off the TV, get out there, like you know, and go out and do things and try things and always just be open. You've talked about just the way that the universe guided you, or whether it was divine, whatever your belief, to find pool, because it wasn't just the scoliosis. You were going through some troubled times in your teenage years and lo and behold, boom, here's this sport. It wouldn't be the first thing you'd

expect a girl from Brooklyn to run into. And now you sent you what was that kind of a lightbulb moment when you realize this is something for me and this could really be important. I remember when I was younger, I was a bit of a tomboy. I loved being active.

I loved playing ball um with the kids. And I'm talking about an elementary school so in my and then eventually, because of what I was saying, that racism, the bullying, some of the other things, my mom transferred me to a private school in the city, which she she regrets to this day. It was in Greenwich Village, you know, And so in a private school it's it's great in some ways, but you have access to a lot more

things that can get you in trouble. And I was being a bit of a teenage delinquent and being rebellious and things like that. And after after scoliosis my spinal fusion, I could no longer run be the tomboy. I had to be way less active. And they kept saying, you know,

within a couple of years, you should be fine. Um well, they would say in six to nine months, and then a year, and then two years, and then they were like, now you probably I just should expect that you Now, this is quite possibly the best that you're going to get. Jeanette was forced to accept that playing all the sports that she loved would now be impossible. Eventually, your high

school boyfriend took her to play pool. The Color of Money, starring Paul Newman and Tom Cruise, had made pool cool again. New billiard rooms are opening up all over New York. So one night, when she was eighteen, Jeanette walked into a pool room near where she worked and laid eyes on a stranger who would completely change the course of

her life. And so I'm in there and I remember all this noise and things going on, and in the far back corner of the room there was an older gentleman playing by himself and he was it was almost like you're in a in a movie twilight Zone and everything black sat and you're like you focused on this one table and I could almost almost felt like my breathing was in sync with his. And he was just it was like he made the cube all dance. I mean, he was just so graceful and he made everything look

so easy, and I just this is just beautiful. And then, um, so I started going there more often. There were more and more players that were really, really good. But I remember that first night that I saw him. I was looking, I was analyzing and looking at his stance and I remember making my hand in the shape of a bridge and I just kept practicing because it feels so like uncomfortable,

and I did that. And I don't remember how long I sat there, because because I would imagine somewhere between fifteen and eighteen hours, and it was a twenty four hour place. But there was one straight in there. Oh yeah, but and that was normal. But that was my first time. That was the first time that I just fell in love with what I was seeing, and so it really did beca I'm an exception um an obsession. But I think that anytime you see someone really good at what

they do, it's it's most morizing. That is a vivid picture that you painted, that kind of the heyday pool, the glamour days thanks to the hustler, and so this mix of people, the Wall Street guys full of bravado and pockets full of cash, the pool hustlers who who wanted that cash? And they were they were playing their own games, I mean, and how did you fit in and what did they make of you when you walked

into that room? As I said, there weren't a lot of women playing pool seriously, right, So eventually I did stand out because I was I became that was my second home, that became my second homes there all the time, I would say most of the time. I mean I would say that I feel like the hustle that I did was just me being a woman, because I mean, I was always very competitive, so they could see my game.

I feel like they could see my general game, but just because I was a woman, maybe they had some blinders on where they didn't really equate whether they could beat me well, because most of the times it really didn't. It didn't take effort or lying so much. It was that I could see their game for what it was, and I feel like time and time and time again, I was underestimated and I read the reward of that. So yeah, I would say that, And the regular hustlers

didn't really pick on me. If anything, they would make a deal. Listen, I've been feeding off this fish every Friday for the last blil blaiflies, he's only good for you know, fifty dollars, just said, and blah blah blah blah. If you want to go in there, then you can. You know. That's what the mark was called. The fish was what the it was what the hustlers called the marketing. Yeah, usually fish. You know, you pretty quickly had some incredible

success and became one of the most recognizable players. Once you reach that, there's no way you're gonna hustle somebody. They're gonna be they're gonna be looking out for you. I mean, they're gonna say beware of the black widow.

I mean, when you had this success and you're in your early twenties and this is the thing, we're supposed to take years and years to hone skills, to deal with the pressure of of tournament pool and and being able to understand how different it is when there's a title and the money on the line versus being practicing in the back room. I mean, did this success catch

yourself off guard? You're not supposed to win the Women's Nationals and the US Open nine ball at the age you were, not only were you female, if you're so young in the game, is this what did you just act like? Hey, I expected this, this is what I'm supposed to I'm supposed to win. No, because no matter I mean I I will say that. Um, I think I turned pro in three years, and after a year and a half of becoming pro, I became number one.

So it was But that's crazy, Jeanette, that everybody, a million people must have told you that's just not supposed to happen. That's just great put to put in perspective for folks. How unusual that is to skyrocket that quickly in your sport. Yeah. I still haven't met anyone that has attained anything like that in my lifetime, let alone Before that, you go from being here's this new sensation. Wow, this is going to be good for the sport of pool. We've got a new star too. Now you're on top

and all the stuff that comes with that. Now you're a target, you're the one to beat. It's natural in a sport that jealousy and resentment are part of that because you're achieving things that are beyond just the success and the tournaments. You're obviously getting noticed, you're getting endorsements. How was the climate and what kinds of things did

you have to deal with there? You find the sport to get you out of being an outcast, main bullied, and now there's the pressure of being at the top and there's all people want to take a run at there. It was that there was some jealousy. I think that a lot of people didn't think that I earned the attention I was getting. And I did stand out because I was the only minority or actually there was Vivian Balurial.

It was Latino, but it was otherwise fully Caucasian, you know, all the players and me being from New York dressing in all black, which for New Yorker is very normal, but um, I just really stood out and so getting all that attention and I felt very alone. I remember my first title, the first time I won a major.

Um After I won, I mean, everyone cleared out, and I went into the restaurant attached to that club, and and everybody was sitting down and eating and not one person congratulated me or asked me to join them at their table. And I went to my hotel room and cried. And that was my first major win. So it was it was very, very low at the top because of

how I started. Whenever I play in tournaments, I make a point to go out of my way to any players I don't recognize that are new and introduce myself to them and say, hey, do you want to sit together, you want to grab a coffee, you want to practice together? And they're all like, oh, I want to intentionally make a difference based on my bad experiences, So I go out of my way to to recognize and encourage new players on the tour whenever I can, for those of

us that will never experience it. And you've talked about the importance of confidence in this board. You can be technically clean, you can you can be fine tuned for a tournament. When you walk to the table. That feeling of confidence in the role that it plays, and and kind of getting in the flow state or the zone or whatever you want to call whatever athlete expression is used describe everything clicking. It's relaxed intensity together, which is

how a lot of athletes describe it. That's exactly right. Yeah, good. When I'm playing my best pool, when I'm in the zone, all I focused on is the job at hand at the table. But I helped myself get there more often by I actually have a little, um, it's like a little business card size. And what I did was I typed on a sheet of paper all of the things that I do mentally right, um or my attitude. So it'll say I stopped the table, you know, like a I think it was like a panther or jaguar or

something like that. It says I stopped the table. Um. I'm decisive at every opportunity. I look forward to. I rise at any case. You know. So basically, if they and they leave me a crappy shot, I'm not gonna sit there, piste off and feel like they got lucky. I'm gonna step up and be like I'm ready at

least I'm here, let's go, you know. And And so I think about that, because I know when I'm playing my best pool, there is no judgment, there is no past, There's only this moment and an intense focus, but also an aggressive kind of forward thinking, forward attitude um at at everything that I'm doing. You know, each moment to moment, it's looking at right now and giving a effort in focus on getting the result that I want. It's truly incredible.

The Jeanette got the results, shooting to number one so quickly, then battling to stay at the top while coping with constant pain from scoliosis, arthritis and autoimmune disease and surgery after surgery. I worked so hard to become number one, and worked so hard to build this brand and have it all just you know, gone taken away so unfairly and kind of going through again. And now I've had a total of sixteen major surgeries um on my back, on my neck, on my shoulder, on my leg. It's

been a really big journey. And each time I was miserable and mad, and each time I've grown from it. How much of that Jeanette was pushing pain out of there. We talked about the numerous surgeries and numerous ailments. The constant day to day pain. You're trying to deal with pain in a sport where balance precision are are essential. How do you push or how did you push the pain away and not have it become an unwanted part of your focus in those moments where you couldn't afford that.

I remember one tournament, the Gentleman Jack's Dallas Shootout, where on the final day I was I was waiting for my match to play against someone, and then right as we were waiting, it was like ten minutes before we got called. Our match got called up, and I'm standing by the determined Starrett group and damn right through my body and it literally knocked me to the ground where I would get these spasms, these back spasms, and it

would just that the intensity. And this was before um my surgeries in two thousand one, and it was so bad that I couldn't even see straight, and I was embarrassing that all these people over me, and they were like calling and called the you know nine one and do all this other stuff and I was like no, no, no, no, just give me a minute. And I was explained, no, this this happens, and it was it was normal. My

ex husband saught. I mean it, it happens a lot, is I go through these pains, but it had didn't happened at a tournament, and I generally hit it, and so it was shocking. And I said, just can you guys get me out of here because I was embarrassed. All the fans and everyone was watching. So finally, um, they carry me to a bathroom and they get me a chair and I put my legs up so I can rest my back, and I remember my ex husband. I said, I don't know what to do. I can't

see straight. My eyes just kept tearing. And he said, this isn't worth all this, you know, it's just a tournament. Just let's go home. You've done enough for your back. And I was like, you know, one minute, I'm I'm calling him and I'm whining and crying, and then he's telling me that it's not worth it. Just quitn't come home and I and I was like, what, I'm not quitting. It's like, I didn't call you to tell me to quit.

They're gonna have to peel me off that pool table now that la And he was like, well, that's what I thought you would say, But I just wanted to make sure you heard yourself say it. And he was like, if you and get down in pain to miss that ball, then you can get down to make that ball, and just make every time you put your body through that,

make it count. Make the ball. And I remember just having them carry me up and then me being called in and I had like four minutes left on the shot clock, because you know you only have fifteen minutes before they forfeit you to the table, and I leant holding this pool que as my cane and the other hand on the table, and I walked um and played against Lena and bending down and the pain had tears so much that I had to like windshield wipe my eyeballs and there were drops of tears on the pool

table as I got down, and I'm blinking, and I just made ball after ball, and I beat Lena Shu's Vick from Norway, Gerda Hofstetter from Austria, um will send Fisher and then Karen Core in the finals to win that tournament. And it was the first and last time I ever cried out of pool match. But I literally made that last fault, and the whole time feeling embarrassed and read and worrying about what people were thinking, if I'm baking this, or maybe I had just such. I

was so insecure. Actually, if I think about it, and and one by one, and I could never have been more proud. There is no amount of prestige or money or glory that anyone could dawn upon me than me fighting through, fighting through that at every moment. And and you know, I've just done that for most of my career. But I remember that being so hard that my legs were like jello. I could hardly hold myself up because the pain it makes a somehow it affects my legs.

I don't know. I just get weak and well, that that is extraordinary. I've covered a lot of sports, and thirty plus years, I've never heard a story like that. Tears of pain dropping onto the pool table. But fighting through that, I think you are certainly entitled to feel proud about that. Pain is still her constant companion. Jeanette says that sometimes getting out of bed is a struggle. She repeats this mantra over and over. You don't need

to feel strong to be strong, That's what I say. Like, you don't have to wake up with a big, funny smile and be cheerful to everyone. You can be miserable, but sometimes the strongest thing you can do is just getting out of bed and and to recognize that it's just a matter of continue, you know, to keep going,

to keep going and keep being open. And that's just kind of the way that I've learned to get the most, the most joy out of my life is to um always makes some kind of effort to make an impact on people's lives, whether it's want or whether it's thousands UM, but also kind of just do what you can do, do what you can do, and if you need to take a day off and just feel sorry for yourself and eat ice cream or just be pouty, or you know,

try not to be nasty to people. And you know, if you have to just go to your room read a book, um, but then get back up and just keep moving. Because sometimes it's not even just about you. It's about the people that are watching you go through your journey, and they're getting strength from just seeing you, you know, knowing your story, and so that that kind

of gives me. You know, wool skill will only get you so far, you know, And it is some thing that I love and I'll always love and I'll always play, but I no longer value my self worth on my pool game, which I can say for some time that's exactly what I thought, even though it would not have

been my choice to go through this. I'm so genuinely grateful, you know, I mean just really genuinely grateful because of what I've gotten back from it, which is a lot more compassion and humanity or more sense of I mean, simplest self worth. She that reminds me of other all time grades I've known, Nadal Jordan's Lebron, always hungry to improve,

never satisfied with their level of play. And if Jeanette can get relief after an electric spinal stimulator is implanted, she is plotting a comeback to finish her career on her terms. I feel like I've won the titles, so it's really not about that. It's for me personally. Just like you said, you want to feel like when you one, I want to feel like I touched on my best.

And I'm not sure that I even got sixty of where I feel like I could have gone had all my physical disabilities not had, you know, an impact on on my ability to practice for any long period of time, and then having six children on top of that, you know, can kind of like take your time away also. But now a lot of them are grown. I have a strong support system, and I I just feel like my passion for becoming better is there being number one. I don't know, but what that's what I learned really by

accomplishing it the first time. When I was number one, I was like, that was my only goal. I was going to be the the next world champion. I was going to be number one. At first it was world champion. I realized, well, that's just winning one tournament. No, I wanted to be ranked number one in the world. That's it, because then you have to do it over the span of twelve months, you know, stuff like that. And then when I accomplished that, I still realized, God, I'm still terrible,

you know. I still I could still be so much better than this, and so um since then, it's always been about just gosh, I wonder how good I could really yet, and I still feel like so much of that has not been given a fair shot. And if this spinal cord stimulator could do that, yeah, and I feel like I still have pride, but I'm humbly enough that if I don't get back to number one, I can live with that. What I'm having trouble with is saying that I'm done improving. You know, mean, I think

for me, that's it. That may not be the popular No, I understand completely. It's it's it's the process. It's it's the journey. It's the process. It's not the title, it's not the prize at the end. It's what it takes to get there. I I think a lot of athletes would relate to that. I do think that if I do get close to to where I think I can be, I'm already a threat even without practicing. But with practicing and doing what I think I can do, I think

the rest will come. Anyway. It's you're throwing down the gullet. It's a little bit of throwing down the gallet. It's your competition. There you go, look out. I've grown into

the black Widow name. I hated it at first because I thought, again, as I told you, very insecure and already people didn't like me, and that kind of nickname and the way I looked at the table made me ultimately so unlikable or at least that's how I felt at the time, But now I think it just represents so many women out there today who were unafraid and unashamed to just go for it. And so yeah, I'm all about being the black widow. Now I'll be keeping

an eye out for the black widdows potential comeback. I had never met Jeanette before our conversation. I knew of her, but didn't fully appreciate her story. But I can't tell you how many times I've thought of her example of resilience since that conversation. My next guest, I do know very well, had the pleasure of working with Jay Bellis at ESPN covering Final Four's selection Sundays other college basketball

stories for many, many years. Jay is as fine analyst as there is on television in any sport, and he's one of the most important voices in college basketball. At Duke, he was a four year starter, part of Masachevski's first Final Four team, and later was an assistant under coach k Along the way, Jay became an expert on the topic of toughness and wrote a New York Times bestseller

with that title, Jay, This will be fun. I look forward to this he wrote a best seller on toughness and it's various forms and define what being tough is and what it isn't, which I think is also fascinating. But let's view it through toughness in terms, and millions of people are struggling, searching within for strength and toughness just to get it through each day and get to better days, and sometimes just staying positive requires various forms

of toughness. How do you see toughness coming into play right now? Well, Chris, I mean, first of all, in today's world, when we're dealing with COVID and so many other things that are are really beyond our control. One of the first people I thought about with regard to the idea of toughness and and being disciplined and approaches my wife, Wendy. And you know my my wife. You've met her. She's she's uh, she's probably the last person based upon her voice and and she's always smiling that

that she would be this incredibly tough person. But she's really one of the toughest people I've ever met. And by that, I mean she's got her priorities completely in order. And when we were when we were married, early in our married life. Um, and you've gone through this. We we all have. You know. You get you get calls from friends that will say, hey, can you come do this charity event, or can you come do this? Or

would you mind appearing at this thing? And and like you, my first answer was always yeah, I'd be happy to do that. And my wife kind of sat me down one time and she said, uh, she said, I just want you to know something you know, really proud of of, you know, your willingness to say yes to help your friends and people you know and your colleagues, which I needed to understand something that when you say yes to

other people, you're saying no to your family. And that was a real gut punch for me because she was right and her priorities were uh, and still are. Our family is first. Um. We have to be where our feet are all the time, and we have to be

present at the moment. And and that's really true. I think of right now, there's so many things beyond our control, and there are feelings of insecurity that we all have about maybe our jobs or our livelihood, in our livelihoods, what we have into the future, our kids, whatever it may be. And my wife's thing is, no, you have to choose to be present and not to go off

on a tangent to your question, Chris. But when my kids were little and and we you know, we were all out trying to you know, improve our careers and get ahead and and all that stuff. Um, I remember my wife saying that she said, now these babies, we have our temporary that you need to pay attention to the here and now because you're going to really regret if you miss this. And so I think about that a lot about Um, I can I can worry about

certain things later. I need to be here now. There's nothing I can do about some of these other things. So so what are my priorities? And then I often think along the line of priorities. What Jeff van Dundee said years ago, and I believe he got this working with pat Riley, was your decisions reveal your priorities. That you can say what your priorities are, but if your decisions take you in another direction, it reveals that those really weren't your priorities. Thank goodness for wise and tough

women in our lives. Um, that's the most important thing, toughest being stamina, endurance, discipline, resilience, sacrifice, selflessness, the kinds of things that are really put into question in times like this, and and people having to to find within themselves a toughness that maybe can only be revealed by adversity. Yeah, and to and for me in my life, that that's a lot what the book was about. There was so much of it. Not to write, hey, look how tough

I've been, or what I've learned about toughness. It was look at the lessons I've learned, and then through my friends about areas in which I fell short, sort of in the in the toughness realm. And and for me, Chris um like, I think I'm not alone in this, But for me, I think earlier in my life I was a really good rationalizer and excuse maker, and if if something didn't go on my way, if I didn't perform to the level I felt I should have. Um, I think my first fallback was to rationalize why and

and to really make an excuse. And I think I became much better at everything I did when I stopped making excuses and started accepting responsibility for the result. And uh, and the first, you know, the first thing was self you know, self evaluation, can you are you willing to take a hard look at the at the y of of the result and and instead of worrying about success, worry about achievement. And you know, did I achieve the goal that I had set out? And if not, why not?

And and look at it sort of that way, without without an excuse, And that was really important for me. Um. I think I'm much better at that now than I used to be. And uh, and look, I mean, Steve Kerr is a good friend, I know you know. Well, he had said something to me years ago, uh, sort of about his when when he turned. One of the ways he turned a corner in his basketball career was when he became willing to accept the consequences that came

with failing or with losing. That if he were to take a big shot at the end of a game, to acknowledge that, hey, I may miss, but I'm not afraid of missing. I'm willing to accept the consequences that come with missing. I'm stepping up to take this shot to make it. I want to make it. I don't want to miss, but I'm not afraid to miss. And that's a really big hurdle to get over. I think mentally.

And when when I was in high school, I had a speech and debate and drama teacher named Billy Kramer, and uh, and he had he had kind of boguarded me into being in a in sort of this school play, this this production we had of Lillian Hellman's Watch on the rhyme. You know, you talk about some of those way over the head of of of high school seventeen eighteen year old high school kids. But one way, we're

going through these what I considered pretty grueling rehearsals. If if I made a mistake, Uh, he really jumped on me about listen, you don't have an opponent out here that's trying to stop you from doing what you're supposed to do on stage, from from being there on your queue, of hitting your mark, of being president in the scene, of of giving to your fellow actors, things like that. And I remember him saying, very very distinctly, him saying,

don't don't be your own opponent. And I really thought about that. I'm like, hey, when I'm playing basketball, I've got somebody who's actively trying to stop me from what I'm trying to do. Well in the rest of my my life, when whether it was that that play or my job as a broadcaster, like what you know, our jobs, I'd like to think our jobs aren't easy. Yours as an easy mind is an easy But we don't have an opponent, and we may have competition in our jobs,

we don't have an opponent. So what excuse do we have of not being prepared, of not being in the moment, and of not doing our job to the best of our ability all the time? Uh? And that that's that's a part of it too, of accepting that responsibility and really getting out of your own way and not being your own opponent. Are you good actor? After all that? I was a good actor, I'd say my dad was

a theater director and a professor. Nothing terrified me more than the idea of getting on stage and trying it before I never did that. I lacked the toughness to face that fear and do it, and only much later in life got even stand in front of a group of people in talk and the incentive was you leave too much money on the table if you won't go make a speech to a booster club. You have to learn to overcome that fear. ME ask you, this is is being able to overcome those fears. Is toughness born?

Is it in the d n A in your opinion, or is it developed out of necessity and people? That's a great question. I think in the research I did for the book, it was about fifty fifty and and it's it's mostly opinion that people have that that. Some people say you're born with that. Other people say that, no, you can develop it. I'm I'm in the camp of that that it can be developed that. I don't think we come out of the womb, you know, Uh, you know tough tough people that you acquire it and learn

about it. And maybe your circumstances as you're growing up are ingrained in you to be able to fight through some things. Maybe there's part of it that's the genetic. I don't I'm not sure. I U I understand it completely, but I know that in in my life, Um, I learned it it that I don't think I had it when I was younger. I don't think I understood it. And uh, and I think it was it was sort of an acquired thing. To the extent I have it at all, it was acquired and I learned from other people.

I was inspired that. That's maybe the thing that stuck with me most is how my friends, my colleagues, my teammates really inspired me um to to persist, um to have the resilience in the way I went about things. You got into sports, Well, let's let's launch into sports toughness, where people tend to think that that means prominently a physical component. Can you take punishment, can you endure pain?

Can you suffer and still excel? But you write in your book a lot about mental toughness being way more important than that stuff. Yeah, And and a lot of that I learned from my teammates that were honestly at times willing to fight through more than I was at that time time and watching them do it and picking their brains on on how they did it really helped me realize that I had artificial barriers, metal barriers that I put up that that were born out of fear, honestly.

And you know, when I was when I was in college, we used to run the mile every year for time, and I was not built for for the mile, but you know, I wanted to get better at it. My junior year I really trained hard for it. I ran It was not a natural thing for me to run, to run a mile for time, and I worked my tail off. And my college roommate and teammate, Mark Allery, was about the same size, and generally, you know, within

the realm of the same type athlete. He's a better athlete than I was, but but at least we're in the same realm. And so I worked really hard and I ran like a five thirty mile, which for me that that was like Roger Banister breaking four a minute mile. And and Allery, who did not train for it at all. I mean he played pick up all and did all his conditioning work, but he didn't train for it like

I did, ran a five level. He was in his dorm room before I finished, and and I was pissed, and I talked to him about and I said, what, you know, how how did that happen? Like I, I worked way harder than you, and look at the result. And he said something very matter of factly that that that really was was profound. He said, he said, look like the mile is just how much pain you're willing

to endure. And he was right, like I was not willing to endure the same amount of pain in that last sort of lap, and a half that he was. He was stronger in that because he was and he said, he said, you know, think about like how many times have do people collapse from exhaustion? You really don't. The truth is you've got another gear and and you just have you have to be willing to find it. And uh and I wasn't willing to at that time. I

think I got much better at it. But but that was really helpful to me to have somebody kind of point that out. That and that was sort of the excuse making thing. But it was a fear of of pushing yourself, like you know, what if I don't do it? Or what if I fall short? So you hold yourself back instead of well if I run out of gas, I run out of gas, But why would I hold myself back? And that that was a that was an important moment for me. It's sort of my mental approach.

That's a great story. I think toughness within athletes, and I covered tennis as well as football, as you know, and people don't think of tennis players is being that tough. But as you were talking, I was thinking about Raphael Nadal, who is physically tough, is mentally tough still as a humility and humanity to go with that. He's he's not infallible,

he's choked before. But the physical component. He uses the word suffer a lot, and I never really heard someone in tennis use that word, but as it is defined by him, it's just the toughness to ignore pain and just do more out lasts longer than your opponent out there, and be willing to put in the suffering. Well, and you put in the preparation. The suffering comes from the preparation you put into being that kind of shape, so you can endure even more when the lights are on.

And you know that goes frankly too. I think the jobs that we do job most people do that that your preparation. You get your confidence from your preparation that you know you're ready to perform. But it doesn't mean that you put in that preparation that and you're entitled to perform. You're not. You still have to go do it. And I remember a quote from the great actor, Sir Lawrence Olivier that that the amount of preparation he put

into a role. He would say that that in order to in order to uh, you know, do this great role, you had to have the humility to prepare and the confidence to pull it off. But the confidence to pull it off comes from the preparation of it. And now look digging down deep when you're late in the match or late in the game, when when you're tired and and all that, that's a that's a level of toughness that I think you have to go through, UH in

order to understand UH and understand yourself. But but part of it also is, you know, if you're down late, if you've had some bad bad luck, or maybe you're not performing at the level you think. It's sort of what Coach k used to say to us, is that, you know, having a next play mentality, no matter what just happened, you have to move on and flush all that and then and then be prepared to perform in the moment. And UH, you know, next play, it's always

next play, whatever happened, next play. And I think about that a lot in in game broadcast studio. If you make a mistake or if something something doesn't go on the way you think a man, the next play, whatever happened, the next play is the most important. And especially as you get down, get down to the end of the game and then you know, going back to that that friend of mine and teammate and my Mark Gallery who told me about the you know, sort of how much

pain you're willing to endure. He also had a thing about his mental mental preparation, you know, when when we were playing for Coach k he was younger, and so we would have film sessions when maybe we lo as a game or didn't play well, and the film sessions got into we got beat up a little bit and it wasn't really pleasant, you know. When he was so Alary had told me one time, I think it was

my turn to get beat up, and I was. I was pretty mentally torn up after after the film session, and Alary he told me, he goes, oh, when he gets like that, I don't watch, And like, what do you mean you don't watch? And he goes, I'll look at my feet, I'll look at something else. He because, if we're doing something analytical about here's the position we need to be in, here's what we're running all that,

he said, I'm all in. And he says, but I'm not letting anybody put anything negative in my memory bank, like that belongs to me, and I have to drop up on that when things get difficult and nobody gets to plan anything negative in there. And I was like, man, you are a lot mentally stronger than me, because I was listening to all that stuff and I think, I

think I need a psychiatrist to get through it. But but that memory bank thing was it was really interesting to me, like can you evaluate what happened without beating yourself up and and putting yourself in a negative position going forward, Because I think there's a difference there in in any walk of life to to evaluate what happened, to act positively upon it, and to not carry the negative forward so that that it keeps you from performing

at a high or higher level in your next hout. Yeah, that's a great point that you make at several spots in the book about how maintaining a positive attitude when it's challenging is a true example of toughness. You talked a couple of times about managing fear, and I thought it's interesting in the book you use the example of Mia Hamm and Julie Foudy, both seems soccer legends, and how Mia Hamm as great as she was prepared with fear, tremendous fear of failure. You don't want to play the

game with fear. But part of being tough is, you know, managing that and admitting that you have this fear of failure. Now, how do I put myself position not to fail when I get there? It's fascinating, I think for people that have never been in that that level of athletics, and I've never been at Julie or me as level of athletics.

I know that, but you know, like in in all of your your career, you've been around so many amazing athletes, amazing people, and and you know, it's interesting to me, Like you always hear the thing about is it better to want to win or hate to lose? You know, You've heard that a bunch and I hear from coaches a lot. They say, oh, oh, I'd rather have somebody who hates to lose. And honestly, Chris like, I'm not different with them, but just for me personally, that doesn't

move me, Like I don't. I don't want to go into a game wanting or into into anything I do wanting to avoid a negative result. I want to strive for the positives, kind of like we're talking about Steve Kerb before. I want to strive for the positive, but willing to accept a negative result, Like I'm willing to accept falling short. I'm willing to accept failure. And I don't mean failure in the sense of my career is over, but failure in the sense that I don't achieve the

goal I had. But I'm not gonna let fear of failure stop me and and affect me negatively. And because like, look, nobody broke a huddle. Nobody ever broke a huddle worth a damn saying don't lose. You know, one to three, don't lose. You know, it's always one, two three win. So how do you put yourself in the mindset of striving to win? Like I play a lot of golf, and this is it's really hard for me because you know, I'm a I'm a decent golfer, but I'm not I'm

not as good as I want to be. And so sometimes you step up to a hole and when you're thinking about, oh, there's trouble over here, there's water here, don't hit it there, don't do this. And I remember playing I had I had a caddy with me as a great guy, and I stepped up to this really hard part three, and I said, man, this is a

hard God, this is a hard hole. And the caddy says, not today and not for you, and and I was like, Okay, that was the pep talk I needed because I was sitting here thinking about all the things that could go wrong, and he's like, not today, not for you. Five words as a pretty good pep talk. And it was great. I mean it was great. And and it's almost embarrassing that I had to have somebody that was was working with me to tell me that that that wasn't my natural,

you know, natural approach. But it really snapped me back into, uh, into a mindset of think about the positive and get into routine and think about doing your best and and going back to Steve Kerk. So here's another one from Kerr that that I thought was just I've carried this with me ever since he told me the story. You know, Steve Kerr, great shooter, one of the one of the best shooters ever in the NBA, one of the best

free throw shooters. And he told me there was one game he played in Houston against the Rockets where he shot the perfect free throw, Like his routine was perfect. Everything in rhythm, shot, perfect form, perfect follow through and uh and it went through the went through the bucket

and the net. It was just perfect. From then on, every time he took a free throw when he was finishing his routine, he dribble three times and then he would breathe out and he would say Houston, and it would just put himself in that mindset of when he was perfect and and that's kind of what that's kind of what it's about, like, put yourself in the in

the best position to perform. And it doesn't mean you're going to shoot the perfect free throw there, but you're in a hell of a lot better position to do it if you've got the positive mindset of executing that way.

I think it's great advice for anything. I'm certainly not claiming to be tough or that my job requires any special toughness, but I always tell young broadcasting students who want to do this, you get to a certain point where you stop thinking about making mistakes, as you say, you know, the fear of failure, and it's an evolution, and then a light bulb goes on and you suddenly begin to have fun and enjoy and you want to excel do the best you can, and the fear of

failure or or avoiding a bad show, it doesn't even come into it. And that was a that's a key moment for me, sort of getting beyond trying to avoid a negative outcome and just enjoying the experience, just being present and thinking only about how good it could be. You know well to your point on that, Chris, And then again, I'm not just fulling to smoke at you.

You're the most prepared person I've ever worked with. And and from my seat, what one you made my job when I worked with you incredibly easy because you took care of everything and then set set your partner up for partners to be at their best because you understood what they need to do, accomplish and what they needed to get out. But but your ultra preparedness from my seat, allowed you to react in the moment that you weren't

thinking about what you were going to set. You knew everything that was going on and we're in complete control of it, and so you could pivot and react to what was being said and and frankly, you you your preparation allowed you to listen and and how how important is that in our job, or any job, your ability to not just think about what you're gonna say, say and think about what's next, but to listen to what's being said that so you can react to it and

and amplify it and and you know, make it better. And and that's what I think you do better than anybody I've ever worked with. Well, you're very kind. I'll have to decide with that at these parts out later on. But I appreciate the nice comments here. The host is supposed to say nicer things about the guests. Now you're you're embarrassing here, but I appreciate it. Now your your

your preparation goes without saying. I mean, preparation is confidence in broadcasting and anything and sports certainly, but uh, but you certainly continue to bring it. I want to talk about a couple of other aspects of toughness and and the idea of the opposite of tough being soft, and a lot of things that are viewed as real negative is kind of the the humanity. And I think that my experience, people can be tough and also be very

vulnerable at the same time. In fact, sometimes that vulnerability brings out the toughness, reveals the toughness in a nice way, in ways that people might not expect. Yes, and and for me, uh in in my not only my career,

but my life. Um, some of it had to do with with letting go of the fake toughness of trying to play through an injury and instead of being honest with the doctors that were taking care of us and a trainer, I was trying to sort of play through something because I thought I was being tough, and what

I was being was foolish and stupid. Um that that you can, like, you can play through some pain, that's fine, but when you're injured, you have to be honest about it so that you can get it taken care of and that you can you can be at your best. And the other part of it, you know, we've all had this with with family. I had a family member, very close family member that went through a very difficult

about of of depression. And that's especially Jermaine. Now in our society because of the higher rates of depression and anxiety, not only in younger people but across the board, with what people have to deal with now, because it's harder,

it's harder now than it than it's ever been. I think, but one of the one of the things that that got my family member through it was was sort of surrendering to the fact that that this is real and it's going to require a lot of attention, and there's nothing wrong with it, um, just it's just like any other problem. It's just like a bad knee or a

bad back or whatever. Uh. And and sort of admitting that, admitting that you need help and that you're willing to do what it takes and you're willing to accept help from others was was really important. And and you know, you like Coach Kay said this, and I think he said it for a variety of reasons, but he had said, you're not nobody is tough alone, Like that doesn't exist.

Nobody is tough alone. And uh, and that that was especially true I think for in in what I was talking about with my stupidity and dealing with an injury I had in college, and then for the family member, um kind of dealing with a depression issue that that that took a tremendous amount of toughness and strength to deal with. Uh. Not only are a part of my family member, the entire family and and none of us were tough enough alone to handle it. None of us were,

but but collectively we were. And uh and it was a positive and has been a positive result because of that. Do you use examples in your book of cancer patients and those who treat cancer patients? Of course, we both knew Jim Balbano, who was a very public inspirational force in this area. But you talk about a component to toughness being hope and belief, Why are those so important? That came from from Dr Henry Friedman, who is ahead of the Duke Brain Tumor Center and the overwhelming majority

of Henry's patients die. And he's the most positive person I've ever met. And that's why I consulted him on this was I I wanted, I wanted to know how do you do that? How do you remain so positive? And and the people that that have his patients and the families of his patients to a person said that Henry gave me hope. And so he told me that

he felt the foundation of toughness was hope. And then he said that that when and he you know, he used basketball as an example because he know he's a Duke and he and coach k are really good friends. And so he used sort of the Duke basketball team and program as an example, and he said, anytime you guys started a season, the number one thing you started with was hope. It was a hope that you were going to have a great year of the hope you were going to win a championship. Now, hope isn't a plan.

You you had a plan and went after it and all that stuff, but it all starts with hope. So he would have patients with with a geo blastome a brain tumor with with an eight percent chance of survival and and the first thing he would tell them is is we've got a plan. We're going to attack this. And and he remember him saying, here's our Plan A. And if Plan A doesn't work, we're gonna move right to Plan B. And if Plan B doesn't work, we're

gonna move right to plan ceed. And said that our job, like we are making technical technological advances every day in this field, and our job is to keep you alive long enough where our advances, UH can can beat this. And he he introduced me to a woman named Sabrina Lewandowski and he said, you've got to meet this woman. He says, she's five to little blond woman. And he goes, I promise you, you lock her in a room with the toughest football and basketball players you've ever met, and

only one of them comes out. You go, Sabrina is coming out. And I talked to her about it. She had a geo blastom of brain to her and and she had said she the teacher, and she had told me that that when she was going through that she made a decision right away, I'm in the eight percent. And when she would go for treatment, she would see people in in the same situation that she was in that we're near the end. And she said, I'm not proud of this, but but it's just something I felt

like I had to do. I couldn't look at them when I was going in for in and out of treatment because that wasn't me. That that's not going to be me. And and she she acknowledged, and Henry did that you know, her mindset and her attitude didn't mean that she was going to come through the other side to survive. But if she didn't have that, she would never have And and not only did she survive, she

had a baby. I mean, she's been a success story, like when when she brought her baby into the the Duke Brain Tumor Center, there was of all these doctors, nurses,

healthcare professionals, not one dry eye. And I'm having a hard time keeping mind dry right now, even though I know that you know the story, Um, that was you talk about a positive influence that what you know what in my life is so difficult and such an obstacle that I can't deal with it with the positive attitude that a young woman with a geoblastoma had, Like, I can't match that attitude with the tiny little mole hill obstacles I have when she had that to scale that.

That was another one for me, just in writing the book that I said, man Um, I may think I've I've got a little bit of toughness in me, but it's not close to Sabrina Lewandowski. Now, we've all been around far too many people had to have that kind of toughness. You see it in kids, you see it in people of all ages. It's um. It is inspiring. Alex Carris was a tough guy. He said, toughness is in the soul and the spirit, not in the muscles. And I think that a lot of what we've talked

about sort of is in line with that. You use the term earlier in the context of sports playing through an injury, but in a broader sense because the genesis of this book was a PC he wrote on ESPN dot com and essay, fake toughness? What is fake toughness? Jay? Well,

that that it That article. I wrote an article for ESPN dot com because I was watching a basketball game, kind of preparing for something coming up, and and the analyst, you know, my role, had praised a player for being tough when the player is just being a bully and and just sort of physically trying to push somebody around. Um.

That's what kind of fake toughness is. Is the bravado that the meaningless bravado I would call it um for lack of a better way of putting it right now, the stuff that that is showy but doesn't really mean anything. I think that the concept of fake toughness, it just runs rampant outside of the sports fear. You said, false bravado projecting something that's not really deeply felt because of deep insecurity. And that's where I think you see so

much fake toughness. You don't really have it. You have to use a lot of bluster and bravado and man. Um is that is that another epidemic that we've got to deal with in society. I don't want to leave it there. Um this on an upbeating note, just to patch yourself on the back because you said you had to learn the hard way about toughness, but give yourself credit for for something that's that's happened. Maybe away from the basketball court, where you you appreciated all the things

that coach k child you. Your dad was a huge influence. He said he was the toughest guy you knew. But all the tough players that have been a part of teams and and broadcasters, what what's a moment where you felt like, you know what, that's a lifetime full of absorbing lessons and being around tough people to help me through something. I think probably my dad was probably the most helpful to me in in getting me to let go of this this kind of fear that I had.

You know, when I first went to law school, I really felt like I was out of place. Um, I just didn't know if this was the right thing, that I could hack this, And you know, I was an assistant basketball coach at Duke at the same time as a grad assistance. I had a little bit on my plate that maybe I was too much for me. But I remember calling home once. Uh you know, like with my family, you would call home. It was back in

the remember back in the long distance days. You know, you have to call at night so you get you know, long distance rates and all. So I called, I called home, and in my family, you talked to your mom and you told your mom everything, and then at the end of the conversation she had the phone to your dad, and your dad would go, how's everything going. You got enough money? All right? Good? Great calculator, And that was

the end of it. And so this one time I had called and I was having a hard time in law school. I was at a low point, and I my dad got on the phone. At the end of the conversation. My mom hadn't even asked me about about it, but he said, he said, how school? And I said, it's not good, Dad, I'm struggling, like I don't I don't know if I'm gonna make it. And he said, what are you what are you talking about? And I said,

everybody here seems to know this stuff already. Maybe their parents were lawyers and they know all the Latin terms. And I'm I'm like running uphill and underwater. Any analogy you want. I don't. I'm struggling. And I remember him to him kind of saying, come on, man, he's he said, you don't get it. You don't get a prize for knowing it. Now you get a diploma for knowing at

the end. Like relax like so all he goes, how many lawyers are are out there in the country, and I go, well, a lot, And then he goes, but you're the one that can't do it, and he just kind of knocked me, you know, kind of you know, figuredily slapped me around a little bit to say, come on, like just do the do the work. You'll be fine, Like like you know, you don't nobody's saying you have to be on the Supreme Court at the end of your first year law school, like keep keep keep working,

you'll be fine. And I was. And that's sort of the the attitude I've taken in all the different things i've I've I've done, whether it was practicing law, whether it's broadcast whatever it was, Hey, I may not figure it out fastest. But I'm gonna I'm gonna keep working at it and and I'm gonna figure it out. And that's been that's been the most helpful thing, like I'll figure it out and uh. And that was a really really helpful thing my dad did for me that time.

I don't think he was thinking he was helping me. He probably just wanted me to shut up, but it was important. That's an awesome way to express a really important lesson. There's there's somebody in the book. We could do this for hours. You're against multitasking. You think it's hard to be tough if you multitask. We any more single minded focus in this world right now. And I think that's that's a well put point in the book

as well. But but your mom and dad did their job, when he does her job, your coaches, your teammates, and we thank them for for giving you this wisdom and and thank you for sharing some of the wisdom on toughness. Jay Well, thanks for having me, Chris and Honrapy with you as always. If you don't already at a bunch of you to follow Jay Billis on Twitter at jay Billis. As about one point nine million people already do. He is insightful and thoughtful and also very funny. Grateful to

both Genette Lee and Jay Billis. They have very different backgrounds. They come at our topic here of true Grit differently, but I think both offered good ideas, good tools that you can use. So I hope you found it entertaining and also useful. I appreciate it if you'd offer us feedback through ratings and reviews. Those are important for any podcast, and also invite you to subscribe. We have new episodes that come out about every other week thanks to my

co executive producer Jennifer Dempster and producer Jason Whiteheldt. I'll talk to you soon.