To go or not to go to college? Part two. This is such a hot topic right now, the conversation that millions of families are having, weighing the pros and cons that benefits versus the cost. We hope these two episodes will contribute to those discussions. Part one featured two young entrepreneurs who bypassed college to carve their own paths. The focus for this episode making the most of college years.
It features three guests who took control of their own educations, shaping college to fit their needs, avoiding the pitfalls that too many students fall into, and we'll get to those. I have a tendency to get a little worked up about wasted opportunities. My three guests are all applying lessons they learned outside classrooms, accountability, reliability, leadership, teamwork as they
take on new chapters. First, to hear from James Kinoff, who took a gap here and volunteered for some life changing challenges before heading to Stanford and then co created the phenomenal nonprofit farm Link. Then two former college athletes, Clemson linebacker and captain Kendall Joseph, a part of two national championship teams, and Morgan william who was the hero of two runs by Mississippi State to the women's Final four.
Morgan hit the long buzzer beater to snap the one D eleven game winning streak of Yukon, the team that had beaten the Bulldogs by sixty the previous year. Billyhams three sec It's to Morgan Williams. Morgan Williams just going to put it up, fires it up, and it is it's It's going to the national championship. Morgan Williams. Don't stop believing Hellos are playing five title Morgan william at the buzzer, ho my good move. Control your own destiny. I mean, you know what your cap beloved, not hard,
you worked for something. You know your strengths and weaknesses. You know opportunities where you can capitalize on. Why why put someone else in control your Like for me, Uh, it just just reality hit Chris. I knew that, Hey, I have two degrees I have I do have an education. I can be successful in the next step of life. And it's like, do I want to continue to chase this and pursue this or am I a piece? And and and realizing that everything that God gave me to
that point, I supposed to be appreciative. Well, and that's kind of that. That was just my mindset because I know a lot of people that they enter a dark space after their their football career is over and they don't know what direction they're gonna go in, and they're still training and they're hoping for a call. And I didn't want to just be hanging around waiting and training and waiting for a call. I wanted to take action.
But I think if I just come straight from high school, I'd be missing the why why are we doing this? To beginning with? What is the purpose? What are we gonna use all that we're learning to actually go do in the world? Um? And otherwise you're gonna make like the uber for dog walking apps that that will be kind of like, oh, you take all your learnings to go do that, um, And you'd really be missing the
why and kind of the purpose. James sense of purpose is very powerful for someone his age or any age. Is it his fifth year at Stanford, a super senior who is set to graduate in the spring. He grew up in l A. His family emphasized the importance of gratitude and giving back, so James two weeks before you were set to start at Stanford, one of the world's great schools. You make a decision, a pretty quick pivot. What happened and what was behind it? Yeah, two weeks
before starting school. Uh, I ultimately decided that I was going to take a year off. Um. And that was it kind of felt like you were kind of on this kind of career treadmill where you go from one thing to the next to the next and kind of race through school to get your job, to go, go, go, go go. Uh And I wanted to take just a second too, to pause, um and see if there's other ways that I can kind of give back. What was
the spark of that idea? The spark of that idea was was a friend who was actually as older as as a journalist. Um. And he was just encouraging me to do this and kind of pushing me, saying, hey, you should really just take a year off. Hey, maybe reach out to some NGOs. You're you're half decent at making little films. You could shoot some things for them. Um.
And so that's what I ended up doing. And out of that decision, go over with with your parents or Stanford or other people they had to run it by because it's a little bit of a surprising move, as you knew at the time. Yeah, so I'm the I'm the fourth child in my family, so I think at this point that kind of given up and they're like, yeah, they'll figure it out. I think if I was the first child, that would have been a much more difficult conversation.
I think I was maybe one of three or four people from our school of I guess like maybe four students graduating that took a year off, um, you know, out of minimum coming out of high school. So it's definitely a different a different path. James emailed twenty humanitarian groups volunteering to film their efforts in Africa in the Middle eat East. He got one reply soon after. He was in South Sudan documenting lives ravaged by civil war
and man made famine. Next was Syria, as the only American and a small group doing human rights work in Damascus at a very dangerous time. Later in his gap year, James and her friend spent a month in Nicaragua making a film about college students in crisis. At the time, the government was having a major crackdown on student protesters. Um they were ultimately literally kidnapping students from the classrooms,
taking them because they had been protesting. And the students there ultimately rebelled and they kicked out the teachers, to school, everything, and they took over their university. They put up barricades around it, uh and basically defended it from paramilitary and police that were trying to come in to take these students. H We got in touch with a couple of students that were down there that were kind of leading some of this um, and ultimately decided that we were going
to go tell their story. So you're really talking to the peers, kids who were slightly older than you at the time. What what did you take away from your experience talking to college students in another country? What what seems to be a different environment. But on the other hand, the world of college students, some would say, is there worth is rather flat because there are universal experiences regardless
of the culture. Man, what did you take away from your action with them that you later were able to reflect them when you got to Stanford. They're willing to throw away um, their entire future to fight for something that they believed in. You know, they were seeing their transcripts were going to be deleted everything, they would risk
go into prison, never literally never leaving. And they were willing to put all of that on the line to fight for something that they believed in and to stand up for something that they saw was wrong, which is the government's oppression. That to me was incredibly inspiring. And I remember what kind of being at Stanfordius the first day walking around and he was like, would that happen here?
Would would people here do the same thing? Humbling to see that experience absolutely it's it was absolutely humbling too to see and experience that. And yeah, I don't know, they're just struggling for words here. I still think about it because ultimately students that we followed they had to
ultimately flee the country. UM. And we ended up, uh, you know, fleeing the country and they're still there and then you know they still can't go back, um, And that's that's kind of a hard thing because meanwhile, like well this, I'm I'm down there for you know, a month. Um, I ultimately get to go back to my life. I go to go back home, I get to go to school. Um. They don't have you kept in touch with some of those students are you still in contact with them, Yeah,
every week. UM, I'm still talking with with my to them and hoping that they are going to be able to return home soon. How has your experience been at Stanford different from if you had been one of those fresh faced kids that came right out of high school in southern California and walked down a college campus and not had that year and I had those experiences, I think I'd be missing the why. So Stanford has so much to offer and you can learn so much and
ultimately it's really it's an amazing and it's a special place. Um. But I think if I just come straight from high school, I'd be missing the why. Why are we doing this to begin with? What is the purpose? What are we going to use all that we're learning to actually go doing the world? Um? And otherwise you're gonna make like the uber for dog walking apps that that will be kind of like all you take all your learnings to go do that, um, and you'd really be missing the
why and kind of the purpose. I think everyone comes with such a unique perspective that they kind of bring. Um. Granted mind was a little bit different, um, but everyone's perspective is valuable and nonetheless, And I think what I ultimately realized is that a majority of people want to
They really do want to make a difference. And the question is like, how do you bridge this gap between like the economic and innovation hub um largely of the world UM, and then everything else that's going on and all the problems and can we actually are there things we can do? Like can do these worlds have to live like this and be entirely separate? Um? Or can
we put them together? And are there ways that we can take learnings from each to really build a better future what you expected it would be versus how it's been. And I'm talking about when you are in classes, not when you're taking taking the breaks from studies. I've been so amazed by all the people. Honestly, that has been like the students sitting side by side and always feeling like wow, I did they mess up and letting me
in here? Was this a mistake? Like g it is brilliant, or like that was the most beautiful thing I've ever heard someone say. UM, So I think that part has been amazing. Like you said, it's it's not the place, it's really the people UM. And I feel really really fortunate to just get to be a small part of that. I try not to preach younger people, but I endued joy giving ideas when I'm asked. Learning from other students in college is one of the least tapped into resources
people your age. Education too often is viewed as a linear thing from the educator to the students who just listen and absorb. It's such a horizontal thing learning from each other. I tell if you just like open your eyes, open your ears, open your heart, you can come away from your college experience infinitely richer just from learning from
other students. Forget what the professor is saying, if you don't even hear what they're saying, and never take a note, you can learn so much by the folks that are around you in college. That's that's spot on. It's like we always say, you're gonna learn a lot more in your dorm room than you are in the classroom. All right, it's kind of those late night conversations. Um, that's that's I think where you really learned. And that's that's one of the biggest values I think of of of college
in general. Something mostly concerns me James is this begins really young in life. This begins, as you said, the treadmill. For a lot of kids, the treadmill starts about ten years old or even sooner. Living part of the time in New York City. Maybe it's the same in l A. When you're in the private school system. I mean, by age three, you're sort of tracking towards something and your future is mapped out and you're expected to be a
high achiever, and the pressure is so realized. Actually, um, not funny, because the pressure takes its toll on kids, and you see the amount of anxiety and depression and kids who wrestle with all kinds of mental health issues, self esteem and and so on. And it's because of that pressure from such a young age finding a way to sort of release that, to keep it in perspective, what's been important for you to do that? What are the tools have you used to to not get into
that trap so many students are. I think taking the year off before school was the best decision that that I've ever made, um And I think that that's given me a lot of perspective to really not It's not even like a tool to not fall into the trap. It's like it's now it's just how am I going to get all stressed out of a test the night
before that I might not be prepared of prepared for. Like, it's those problems feel like relatively typally small, and you kind of realized that that like feeling of kind of perpetual competition is really artificial, UM, And then it's really it matters more about kind of what you do. UM. That's interesting because the feeling of perpetual competition is so real for so many students from much younger ages than college, and it's fostered by the sister them. It's a part
of the system, it's built into the system. It's in some ways considered a key to success of elite schools to foster that competition, to pitt students against each other. Yes, so this is the part that I don't you know, I don't fully understand. UM. You know, it makes sense. You want to instill values of hard work, um into students,
that's a really important thing. UM. But like the perpetual kind of competition where you just kind of keep moving up and up and up until you finally find other students who are like exactly like you, and therefore then you don't feel special, Like that doesn't make any sense. And like how many kids who go into college freshman year and have all these dreams about what they're going to go on to do end up getting crushed by that system. Um, that's the part that that does bother me.
But but just to clarify, I have not I have not experienced that at Sanford UM, which I have been really really grateful for, and I think that is a little bit different than some other schools, no doubt. Something else I notice when I talked to young people, not just college but even earlier than that, is this intense focus on their future, on what's next, on what they're getting ready to do, as opposed to what they're actually
doing that day in the moment. I do my best as an older person to express some ideas that what's most important is what's going on right now with you today, And if there's a way to not get preoccupied with always getting ready for something else, what's down the road. That's part of that perpetual pressure and competition. If if what you're doing now, you know, is never good enough,
it's always the next thing, the next big step. I mean, that's a tough way to live man, and people are out in the real world way beyond college still live that way. It's because we're trained to live that way from a really young age. I think it's really important. Um yeah, if you perpetually are on the strength of like, what's the next thing to this? And then if I do that, if I just work for a couple more years,
then I'll be there there there. I think that's when you wake up at sixty and realize you you wish you would have done something else with your life. Um. That I think this is. I think this is changing. Um and I see this when I'm at when I'm at Stanford, I think a lot of people, um are living more in the moment and are thinking more of the present. And maybe maybe it's the pandemic that has
caused us. There's a consciousness raising in that area, you think, where people are reshuffling their priorities and understanding not to take the present moment for granted. Absolutely that it's it's not taking the present moment for granted, and then it's not over optimizing for yourself, like if all your thoughts are going into like what am I going to do next? Etcetera? This this, this h and rather like shifting more into the present moment and what can I do for others
right now? Not what can I do for others in the future, but what can I do for others right now? I think that shift is happening, and I see it across campus. There's a lot of problems UM and it's messed up, and we have a long way to go. And you actually have the agency to do something about it. You've been you know, one the lottery and been able to go to this amazing school and have this amazing education.
What are you gonna do with it? Are you going to do it to kind of like continue your success or you're gonna do it to try to help others and try to level the plane field a little bit. I think that that has to be the focus going forward. Like I don't think we can really sustain UM, like in this kind of globalized world. I don't think we can sustain this level of inequality. This mindset led James and his buddy Aiden Riley, who was a student at Brown,
to create farm Link. It's an amazing all volunteer group about a hundred and fifties students around the country fighting dual problems, massive food waste, which is also very harmful to the ozone and widespread food insecurity. What was the spark for this not for profit student run organization that is UH done incredible work in a short amount of time. So when the pandemic first hit UM, in addition to the health crisis that was going on, there was an
economic one. Millions of families were forced to flood a charitable food system that was never really designed for a crisis UM. And at the same time that that was happening as a result of closures to schools, hotels, and restaurants, farmers were being forced to throw away billions and billions of pounds of food. So eight and I were seeing
that really really big problem. And then the problem became really really small when our local food bank and put out a statement saying that they if they couldn't raise more money or find more source of food, that they could have to close their doors and start turning people away. And so we said, Okay, here's this really big probleming of these two things, maybe there's something we could do UM And that's how we got started. So you've got an idea that's a long way from making it reality.
How how do you do the work of locating farmers, getting them to understand what was going to happen to their wasted food who they couldn't get to market. They were going to benefit from it financially, but it was going to go to the help other people. And then linked the food banks. Because it's one thing to have an idea to know it's a problem. Be awareness is an essential, amazing part of it, but it doesn't get the job done. Yeah. So, and this is what we
always say. I don't think it's actually that impressive an idea, and I think probably thousands of other people read those same articles and had the same idea, like, wow, that makes no sense. We should connect these two things. Um. And what we tried to do is take that really
big problem and make it really, really small. And so what that meant was literally getting on the phone and calling hundreds of farmers trying to find surplus, talking with hundreds of food banks to try to understand what items they were actually looking for. Initially, we just spoke with our local food bank. They needed eggs, so we called about a hundred and fifty egg farmers got hung up on most of the time. One of them happened to
have surplus, and that was kind of the start. At the time, we didn't have transportation, so we rented a truck, drove to the farm, picked up the stuff, and actually delivered it to the food bank. Very hands on. How did it grow? What was the growth process like? And and listing other students to do this. Yeah, yeah, without getting paid for it. I mean, friends, family, like, everyone wanted to help. Um, wow, yeah, let's let's do this.
Let's figure out and just slowly we took a really open approach that anyone who wants to join just jump on our team. H and put it out on social media and other people started saying, hey, we have the same problem. I want to do this in my town. Um, And pretty soon we had college students from across the country calling farmers locating surplus. People were Americans were seeing this through news that it started to pick it up, and they were starting to just send us money. They're like, hey,
here's ten bucks. It's it's all I have right now, but I know you guys will put it to good use. And that's really how this got started. The reaction and the enthusiasm from a number of other college students from around the country. What was your reaction to that. I mean, people of my generation certainly voice feelings pretty frequently about people of your generation and what what their priorities are and all the shortcomings and all the cranky old person
stuff that we say. What did you perhaps learn or figure out about your peers people in your generation by the response to the farm link idea. I think when when there's a crisis, that's when we have to come together. Um, it's not an option. And I think we saw that through the farm, like through hundreds and even thousands of students saying, hey, let me help. Yes, I'm in I have free time right now. How can I how can I do my part, whether it's a big act or
a small act. And there's like the classic view of like the the entitled millennial or I don't even know what are we gen z or um you forget about labels. People who are you know, approaching college age, in college, just out of college. That's the generation we're talking about her. Yeah, people who are just that. People want to make a difference, People want to make the world a better place. Uh, and sometimes that you just need to spark um. That allows for a pathway to do that, and so that's
what we really tried to create. Yeah, wanting to is not quite the same as busting your butt and doing it and figuring out a way to do it and staying committed. Saying committed not not because it's a novel act, not because it makes you feel good for fifteen minutes, but because the hard ass work that it takes, you know, day after day, week after week, month after month. This problem isn't going away, and it's it's really, in some
ways you could say, continues to worsen despite everybody's efforts. Yeah, absolutely, people like the pandemic has broughten out like sadly, like a lot of like the worst UM and people at least kind of through the lens of the news. UM. And in this example, this is something of bringing out
the best in people. Where you have college students who are doing everything they can to try to help others, talking to as many farmers as they can, finding surplus, delivering it to food banks, just doing everything they can so Americans can keep food on their dinner table. UM. And you'd expect that maybe, like you know, we're a year into this, UM, it's only picking up speed. There's only more students who want to do this. There's only
people who want to put in more time. People have been there for a year doing this as a volunteer and they're still driving forward. That to me is really inspiring and it gives me a lot of hope that we are going to come out of this stronger. For the second time, you put your college education on the hold.
The first time is your choice have experiences. The second time is to grow farm like I mean that that's a that's an interesting path and it prolongs I guess your time at Stanford, but you just felt that there was no other way. The time was now to sort
of stop and give full attention to farm link. Yeah, and this is this crisis is something that you know, this is the time where you have to set up, You need to put aside whatever is going on in your life, whatever it's like can mean for you at the time, and if you're able to, you want to step up to help others. It's it's times of crisis that really form character and who we are as people, as a country, just as as humans. It's these crisses that are going to define us, and it's what you
do in them that matters. Did you kind of escape and slip away or did you try to step up to help those around you? Um, it was a no brainer. You talked a lot about the importance, the crucial role, the gap you're played. What would you say though, the people who say, yeah, that's great, but I don't have any money, my parents don't have the resources to fund
me doing this. Obviously, you know you had to knock on a lot of doors, deal with a lot of nose, so you've got the one yes to eventually head to Africa be a part of that group. But it's still fortunate that during the circumstances be able to do that. A lot of kids are not able to. So what would you say, Hey, there's still ways to gain experience, to gain perspective in between high school and college or after college before the quote unquote real world, if they
don't have a pile of cash to use. I think it's all it's about service and finding ways to serve, no matter kind of where you are um in your life, whether that means kind of finding ways just to volunteer your local foodbank while you're while you're at school or it's after school. Maybe like a lot of people they join the Peace Corps or US like a IDEA, or doctors without orders or all these different perhaps finding finding a different finding a different path. I think it doesn't
need to be someone else's past. It has to be your own unique path, and that's going to give you a perspective that that that will then be valuable, UM and that you can ultimately use to probably try to make the world a better place. So I think it's it's just it's finding ways to serve throughout your life.
For those of us that took some time off ended up just traveling and um meeting people and drinking the various local beverages and um going to a lot of museums, I really feel unworthy of the time after talking to you, I wish I'd had those thoughts occur to me. But you know, I thinking my time off was also really beneficial.
I think we grow from all experiences. I just wasn't, uh, I wasn't giving a lot back other than giving back to the the local economies of the bars where I visited there's and tipping as well as I could as a college student. You know, I think it's just you kind of just said it there. It's it's about realizing, just even being aware that you're on this treadmill. Um, that's kind of pushing you the next thing. The next
thing is perpetual artificial competition. And as soon as whatever it is you travel and you all fuel the local bar economy, if you leave that with that perspective and realize, hey, there's more to this than this kind of perpetual competition, Like what are we actually competing for? Wait a sec um that matters. You speak about farm like in the mission with great clarity and persuasiveness. Is this how you
are walking around every day? I mean, do you do you have to resist you know, proselytizing and spreading the Gospel and trying to get everyone to commit their life to service and doing good and and reducing inequality and things like that. The people do your friends just kind of roll their eyes out. Here comes James again. It's gone, you're gonna do that again? No, No, absolutely not. I think that's like almost the worst thing you can do is like, oh, I'm so yeah, I know that. It's
like shut up, you don't know anything. I don't know anything. Um. I prefer to I prefer to have this conversation and at a bar, and I think it would sound a little different. James and his friends since junior high, Aid and Riley were honored by the Congressional Medal of Honor Society with the Citizens Honor Award for co founding farm Link.
They accepted it with real humility, deflecting credit to the dedicated team of farm Link volunteers who have already delivered almost fifty million pounds of food to people in need. They plan to serve about a hundred million meals this coming winter. To learn more about the problems they're fighting, or to contribute, go to farm Link project dot org. Now that my two guests, who met the challenges of playing college sports at an elite level, will also earning
their degrees. Of course, most of the college students have gotten to know over the last thirty years or so have been athletes, of course, and so often I've been so impressed with the players I've gotten to know, not just their toughness and resilience, but also maturity, intelligence, perspective, wisdom beyond their years. Both Kendall Joseph and Morgan William
fit that description. They both told me they are very grateful for the opportunities athletics provided them, starting by that full scholarship, but also the advantages academic support, tutoring, medical care, mental health support are typically easier for athletes to get the non athletes, but of course there are the obvious challenges, the mental and physical wear and tear, the demands on their time. Many athletes are reminded why they're in college.
They told me they have to push back to create time for their school and some piece of a normal college life. Kendall Joseph was a three year starter at middle linebacker for Clemson. He was chosen captain. I covered the Tigers games a lot, and I saw Kendall achieve the kind of championship career everyone dreams about. A CC titles, college football playoff bids every season, winning two national titles, a victory formation, and a fifty five. For this Clemson
senior class, the Tigers reclaimed their crown by crushing Alabama. So, Kennall, when you thought about your life path, did it always involve going to college somewhere? And was going to college always linked with being a football player? Um? I would? I would definitely say in the beginning, before I really fell in love with the game of football, it was more just education and wanting to go to college and experience that. Right. I always heard that was a great experience,
So that was something I always wanted to do. UM When I started fall in love with football, and I would say really fall in love with it's probably anthem not great UM. And by tenth grade, I thought, okay, I might have the ability to actually go play football at the next level and receive athletic scholarship. So once I knew that was a possibility, once I knew I had a window to receive an education for fruit per se, um, I knew that was what I wanted to do. I
knew that was something I needed to do. I wanted to make my mom and family proud and and so in high school was really focused on that. And I didn't care what school it was. I didn't care if it was d D two or whatever it was. I just wanted the opportunity to, you know, get an education for free. Well, you chose to school, it's definitely not D two. It was at the pinnacle of the highest
level of college football. So you get and we'll talk about quote unquote free ride, because nothing's free in life. But you get to go to a great academic school, it's in your home state, and the program is competing for championships. Was was your sense? And when you got there and you got surrounded by these guys that their choices were based mostly on football and what might prepare them for the NFL versus the whole college experience and
and the pursuit of a degree. Right, Um, I would say, you know, you definitely have the majority of the guys, or not even a majority, but some guys that definitely chose plumpson because at that time, that was, you know, a highway ticket to the NFL. But I think one of one of the things that separates Plempson is the fact that they do recruit based on the audiology. Uh, hey, this is a family here, and the community is great and it's all you know, just a really a tight
knit group. Um. I think that that resonated with a lot of the people that they were able to bring in a lot of these athletes they wanted, They wanted something that felt like a family. Um. They didn't want to be an NFFL yet, right, They didn't want to go to a college program that just ran like an NFL program. And so I think with Clipson, the family aspect, all the resources that you got outside of football, those
were really the main reasons why people chose clumpson. So that kind of makes it important to you and your family growing up. You arrive at college and you look around and realize this is gonna be very demanding in my time. How did you immediately balance the commitment it takes to get the most out of yourself and football and the academic piece. Knowing that you arrived as a three star recruit, I mean, a good football player, but you were surrounded by guys that were more hyped and
more sort of NFL targeted than you were. So what was that balance between sports and that makes when you first got there? UM, it's it's definitely it's a lot. It's definitely a lot of a freshman UM. You have the eight am classes, you have all the mandatory tutor tutor sessions. I mean, your schedule is jem packed as a freshman UM. Thank thank god. I was used to kind of having a little bit of responsibility UM as far as just time management and and doing what I
need to do right. So for me, it wasn't too tough to go to class when you need to go to class, they have a well ride out, you know, rode out schedule for you. All you have to do is follow wood, follow it and be on time. And so from our experience, it wasn't too hard, but it definitely takes a lot of maturity to be able to
handle all the responsibility. A lot of college players and their progress would all say encouraged to get a degree, to take their school seriously, but the time commitment is so tough that many feel limited by the choices they have, what degrees they can pursue, what kind of classes they can take because you're competing in the classhipgainst folks that
don't have that that responsibility. The hours that it takes to be a college athlete, did you ever feel kind of forced in one direction or steered away from a direction you would have liked to pursue because it just didn't make sense for the amount of time it took for those classes. Um. Not not for me. Uh just with the major's health science. UM, I knew that's what
I wanted to do. Um. But when you speak about the instances like that, you're thinking about some of the engineers and guys where the program is a lot is very demanding and at the end of the day, there's sometimes there's classes that happened at three or four o'clock in the afternoon, and obviously we're on the football field
bout then. I can say from my experience at Clemson, there were a few guys um walking on in a few a few other players that did have you know, majors where it was a little bit more extensive, and Sweeney definitely worked with those guys. Right. Um, I can I can only speak for coach Sweeney and pumps and football program, but um, there were times where people did miss meetings because they had to go to this class or there was a study session that somebody really really
needed to get to. Okay, we'll make it work. Um. In my in my experience, UM, like I did have a tough class and anatomy where there were study sessions and labs and things that all the other students were doing that I just didn't have the access to. Right, So we try to make that up with tutoring that's provided to us and things like that. And it can be tough. You're gonna miss some study groups, You're not gonna be in the library as much as some people
maybe um, you just have to find that balance. Was the message delivered to you. Hey, we want you to take your acnake seriously. But remember, Kendall, you here in a football scholarship. I mean, the coaches have one idea about what your main job is. Professors might have another idea. Yeah, yeah, you you They might not say it outright, would you you understand? Hey, you're you're here. You're here to play football? Um uh, you know, to make sure you show up
the class and be a great student. Actually, and you know, put everything you happen to that. But more so when you walk into the facility, it's time to lock in. Whatever happened in your day, whatever happened in class, leave it at the door, and give some football everything you have. No doubt part of college is getting to know people
from different backgrounds that are different than yourself. How much contact were you able to have in your busy schedule with non athletes, with folks who didn't share that same experience as you were having. I mean you had you had pretty good access in class um um, around campus, whether you're in the liberry and things like that. It's definitely friendship that you do outside of the football community.
But as much time as you spend around your brothers and your teammates and people like that, that's that's what you're really around. So um, you definitely have that balance, you know, after games, you know, we're all out and doing the wins after the games and things like that. But I mean, you if you're really committed, you're either in class or you're at the facility, whether that getting training or treatment, you're doing some rehab is. There's all
kinds of stuff that you can be doing, watching film. Um, just certain stuff like that that can take up your time. So it's not a lot of time to hang out. A lot of college students, athletes are not living a bubble and they have to work hard to connect with people outside of that bubble. And was that the case do you think for for most athletes that the opportunities are there, like you said, whether it's in a classroom, if you've got time at a party, but you have
to you have to take those chances. You have to work to have those connections. Otherwise you could come through the experience and knowing only people that are doing the same thing you're doing. Yep, exactly, And it's you know, it's really just about having that awareness. Um, some guys out of side, out of mind, but for some people they realize like, oh man, it's the there's are these are a lot more connections and resources that you can be making down the line, right, and you're when you're
done with football and you're in the professional world. All these students that you're sitting in class with, that's who you're either going to be working with their meeting or somehow you know, connecting. If so, it's it's pretty smart to just make sure you're kind of your balanced as
far as your free grouping. You know, you got your football guys, but you have guys that you know, live a whole different lifestyle and you have different experiences, and you know there's something to learn from them as well.
The personal growth in college outside of improving as a player and going to class, just gaining life experience, gaining confidence being in front of people, and and having the opportunity as a captain of a really popular, prominent team to meet all kinds of people from all walks of life. Did you sense early on that that might be an
important part for your future. Yeah, Well, as a young player, you you don't necessarily thinking about it, Um, but as you grow, as you get closer to that finished line, that's that's something you want to start thinking about. And again closing and the Paul Journey program, everything that they have there, they're they're trying to help help guys have that awareness. Right, Hey, you're you're beating all these people.
You get to speak in front of these people. You're doing interviews every week, UM, so they can see how you speak, they can see how you know, just your your mannerisms and things like that. There's a lot of opportunities to impress people and to make a good first impression. And so I would definitely say by my junior and senior year, I understood the advantages that the advantages of UM saying yes, the different commitments outside of football where you can just get in front of these people and
beat them and you know, make those connections. And at the end of the day, it's it's not a hard connection to make, right, they love him, your your crops of football player, So UM, just going and be yourself. Yeah. Yeah, I mean there's a lot of very successful people who are Clemson graduates and fans and they want to pat you on the back if things are going great, you're winning rings and trophies. Did you have any sense that, hey, I'll give them this, I'll give them this some time here.
It's not bad to be praised, but maybe I can get something out of this, Maybe this might lead somewhere in life after football. Yeah, and it's and it's hard to think like that. You know, for some people it is that that might not necessarily feel authentic. Um, but
it's a part of the game. And if you're meeting these people made, they want to take some of your time and they want to meet with you, and you know they're patting you on the back, make sure you're you're building that connection or your acting questions like what do you do? How did you get into that? You know, all all these kind of conversations, because really open your mind to you know, different avenues after football. Hey man, there's times in the sport when it's tough, um mentally
and physically. You come back from a road trip. You didn't lose room any games in your career, but win or lose, it's a demanding experience. How many times you have to see that alarm clock go off, get up and go do a commitment to be a college student and did you ever have to wrestle with that and say, Man, this is tough, this is suffer than I thought it was gonna be. Yeah, it's it's um, it's a lot to handle. Um. Like you said, it's some women's or we I might have played eighty snaps in the game,
and that's a late Saturday night game. You're back at the facility on Sunday to get treatment and to watch film, and then you have that at least five dirty alarm on Monday morning to go live weights and you're you're still feeling everything that you felt from the game on Saturday. Um. It's situations like that where it starts to catch up on you when you really get into the thick of the season. The great players are all the great players
I was around. They were able to keep that mental toughness throughout the entire season because it's long, it's monotonous. You're doing the same thing every day. You have these weights, you have this treatment you need to do, you have all this film you need to study, and as a linebacker, it was a lot of film to study. UM. So there's there's days where you kind of just don't feel it. And that's Okay, you're gonna have those days, and but you have to be consistent and just kind of, you know,
just just be even about it. So you're a starting linebacker for three years at the highest level of college football. But still many folks don't realize what a small percentage of even elite college players are lucky enough to play in the NFL and stick with the team. So your expectations are probably that. But the draft comes and goes and your name is not called. At what point did you start to feel like, wow, life after football just began,
and how did you feel about that? Yeah, you know, I think I had the two tryouts with the Kansas City Chiefs and the Miami Dolphins, and I didn't get signed with either one of those teams. And you know, it was at that point where you know, I was either going to go to the Canadian Football League or the XFL at the time, or or I was gonna start my career. And I definitely had a long talk to my family and and they actually they wanted me
to keep pursuing it. They know how much I had to vote it to the game, and you know, we were shot that we didn't get an opportunity in the NFL um But for me, uh, it just just reality hit Chris. I knew that, hey, I have two degrees I have I do have an education, I can't be successful in the next step of life. And it's like, do I want to continue to chase this and pursue this or am I a piece and and and realizing that everything that God gave me to that point I
should just be appreciative of. And that's kind of that. That was just my mindset because I know a lot of people that they enter a dark space after their their football career is over and they don't know what direction they're gonna go in, and they're still training and they're hoping for a call. And I didn't want to just be hanging around waiting and training and waiting for a call. I wanted to take action. And so it's you know, there's really no no advice or guidance you
can give for a situation like that. Everybody it ampacks differently, But for me, it was just like, Okay, I had a really impactful season of my life at Clempson. Now let's go do it in the professional world. And so that was my mindset. What kept you from going to that dark place, even for a short time. What skills did you have or what mindset that you adopted this I'm not gonna go down that path when I'm faced
with the reality the football is over. It was gratitude, um, gratitude that I did experience everything I did experience, Gratitude that a little three star started three seasons for Clemson football and was a captain and you know, all a CC selection. Nobody had had that written on my name. And so for me, it was just like I said, gratitude. Man,
that was an amazing experience of my life. And I can either, you know, now reflect on it and always have this pain about it, or I can say, man, that was a great opportunity and now I have all these resources and all these connections to help me in my next step of life. And so that was just the mindset I chose. It wasn't easy, but if you can continue to just be, you know, grateful for everything you have, and you'll be all right. Great mindset, great mindset.
I know it's a lot of things, but if you were to say one or two things that you got out of the some totally your college experience, athletics, academics that are helping you right now as you begin a career, what would they be? Um? The first thing that comes to mind is accountability. Accountability excuse me, um, just as far as being a football player and a students, you know, it's a lot of a lot of responsibility on you, but you have to be accountable. Nobody's gonna, um make
you be accountable. But when you can stand up and say, hey, I made a mistake or this is my responsibility, I'll take care of it, that's really bottle in life. Um. So that's the biggest thing. And then, uh, something that always rings with me is just being a servant leader. Um. This is more or so from the crimps and football side of things, But how can I serve others and in turn you know that that helped them out and
benefit their life? Right, That's what I think of. When you're being a leader, you're looking for ways to serve others and no matter whether that's in professional world or when I have a wife and kids five years, five or teen years down the line, you know, being a servant leader that would be really effective. So those are just two random things that come to my head. Yeah, the lessons learned O the Great Memories. Now you're a cardio as killer ultrasound sales specialists for GE Healthcare. Your
your regions are Georgia and Alabama. Alabama the team against him. You played four consecutive national championship games. They got you twice, you got them twice. How do your experiences as a football player impact your dealings with people in that state in a business in a business arena. Yeah, I think it's just having that confidence when you walk in the door, right, um uh. I think that's just the biggest thing that
I can take away from it. And it's like, Okay, if I can go play in front of the eight thou people, surely I can walk into this hospital department and and make these connections and and find a way to build a poor and just at the end of the day, in the in the field I'm in, it's about being a solid, consistent person. Can they trust you enough to even give you their money? Um? So for me, that was kind of the things that I was able
to translate and at the end of the day, hard work. Um, no matter what what area you are in the life and what job you're doing, Um, if you can apply the hard work that you learned when you had a five thirty am workouts and things like that, it's gonna be okay, and so those are those are things that really helped me just make the transition. Um I would
say that. And then just again accountability, being able to manage my time, manage my schedule, because in the in the field I'm in, you know, I pretty much have free reign. I had to build my schedule and decide who I need to go see and who I need to go take care of. So um I would say
the footballers possibilities definitely helped me with that. A lot of folks who graduate college who were in athletes get out in the real world and they're now faced with the experiences they were exciting to them and very intense
in a new way. But when you've experienced as a college student holding a trophy for the national championship, being part of that brotherhood, get into the pot of goal to the end of the rainbow, and also coming short that wide variety of intense experiences, then you go into a business world. I mean many people I feel like, oh man, I am never gonna live anything like that. I peaked when I'm twenty one or twenty two, and seriously,
that nause at people. So your day to day world does not include chasing a trophy, But how is the excitement of what you're doing day to day if it can match it or at least not be a come down from that? Right, Well, that's a great point that you even made. Um just speaking with other guys that you know play football now are doing different things. The point you made and the fact that you know you have these kids that's had this dream their entire life.
They worked as hard as they possibly could, played college football at one of the top programs. You have everybody knowing your name, you're flying on planes, you're eating filet me on and steak and lobster, and you're doing all these things and then it's done at twenty two. Like you said, some people in the professional world, they might not technically reach their goal and their peak to their forty years old. And now you know, you have these kids that have feel like they reached their peak and
it's now what. So that's a great point that you made. And for me, I think it's hard to master the excitement and intensity of football and the competition level. But I will say that's why I got into the world of selves because I'm able to compete against myself. Um. There's a leaderboard, just like there is in football to see how many who had the most tackles this game? We have who had the most sales? You know, things
like that. So it's very competitive in this field. And UM, at the end of the day, you have to you know, have that competition against yourself. You you have to hold that standard. Hey, I want to succeed. I want to be successful. How can I translate that into the next step of life? Man, if you do that, you'll be Okay,
that's awesome. Advice to what would you say to young people who are entering into college and the opportunity to play a sport but don't fully yet understand the challenges about what's ahead for them and what they need to make sure they accomplish to get where they're going to go. Um, I would say it, always tell the truth to yourself, hold yourself accountable and um really assessed. Okay, Am I ready for this next step? Man? Am I ready to?
Am I willing to put in the work? Um? I think that's the first step and then it's just uh, more than anything, just staying a balance. You can't get too high, you can't get too low because you're competing each and every day. You're gonna have good days of priordays, bad days. You're gonna have good days of class, bad days. Um, and if you're like this, it's hard to really fund that consistency, and it's hard for your your teammates and
trust you. So I would say, just, you know, try to be even killed and take each day, you know, with the you know, optimistic outlook, and uh, just just show up each day and just give it your best each day. And if you show up each day, you'll be okay. And that was fun. I really enjoyed reconnecting with a guy whose college career I had covered pretty closely. And I think even bigger things or ahead for Kendall Joseph Now, like Kendall Morgan, william has already gained a
foothold in the business world. She's a sales district leader for PEPSI injuries kept Morgan from pursuing a w NBA career. She played with pain throughout her Mississippi state time, A serious stress factor in her ship. A steel rod inserted from her knee to her ankle. She also had her nose broken. Now, Morgan's mom remarried when she was three. It was her stepdad who first put a ball in her hands. End she grew up with stepbrothers who were also passionate about sports. But if I have to, she
was told you're too small by many colleges. She grew up in the state of Alabama, but wasn't recruited by the Crimson Tide or Auburn Tigers, and Morgan told me she never lost to either school in her college career. She made the most of her time in Starkville, but sadly, her stepdad wasn't alive to see it through every challenge. Morgan perseveres, what was that feeling when you're walking across the stage. You know what's gonna happen, You're on track,
It's been the plan all along. But when you get that that final moment when you realize you've achieved it and you've done it. Can you take yourself back to that moment when the when the diplomas handed to you. Um, it was a very special moments. I have for stiblance some second to lads. So I saw my oldest brother graduated from Tennessee. My brother's here older than me graduate from South Alabama. So it was just like it's a cycle foot of family and name my sisters five years
younger me. So she just graduated chico Um like a week ago. So for me during that time, it was just like, I don't know, is this what's supposed to do? Kind of de side bill. Uh. My mom was crying and that was pretty nice to see Herry just so super proud of me and ecstatic everything that I've done, and I couldn't did it without her. Graduates get a special patch on their game jerseys when their athletes in Mississippi State. I understand you went in there the next day.
Let's get that patch on the jersey. Because this was the middle of the year, so it's in the middle of basketball season. Get that patch on the jersey so I can show him. I graduate right away, and then very next game it's like, I did it. Go to Passbay to get the degrees, so I mean, I gotta do it. The college experience away from basketball, how did
it match up to what you expected? When you think about, okay, not just playing hoops, but going to class, pursuing a read, getting good class grades, and then all the outside things going to being a student. How did that experience match up with what you expected in the real world. Yeah, no, just while you were at school. How did the college experience what you imagine it was gonna bate versus what it was? Well, college sports was not what I imagined.
It was definitely ten times harder. I thought I worked out enough, I thought I was in good shape. I wasn't. Um, I don't think you could really match the college intensity until you get there. As far as school, um, it was, it was good. I just feel like it's definitely difficult to not do well the student athlete because you have so many resources, so many people around you study hall um that you everyone should be have to graduated within
three and a half years. I feel like, unless obviously if you're engineer and premid and stuff like they had to have extra classes. But um, everything else, I mean, school was it was cool, and like I said, you have so many resources, But athletics it was. It was tough. It was a lot of the days where I was just like, yeah, I'm not built for this, especially freshman year. But you know, because I almost didn't go to college. Um, like I said, myself. Fall passed two months before I
went off to college in March. When I went out to school, like June, first, I wasn't gonna go. I was also wear four in college. I ended up changing too because you were you were two in college at Stamford University, and I didn't like it when he passed, I can work out for a whole month, and then I had a month like I should start preparing or am I even gonna go? So freshman was definitely tough. I think it was just the was a deviating but it was just tough to find the motivation at that
point after he passed away. And then um, we started working out in the summer because it was going on the European trip in August. So like June, I had my first couple of days weeks of practice and I told my point guard close like, I can't do this. I'm not physically mentally strong enough to do this right now? Yeah, I mean, she pulled me inside. I was just like, uh, I mean, this isn't gonna be easy. But I know your father, he wouldn't wants you to get up and
blah blah blah. You know. Gave me a pep talking. I mean, she stayed close to me throughout the freshman year and so on. But yeah, it's times where I wanted to quip before I got hurt. I mean, it's tough. I'm losing someone he's been known forever and then going to live on you know, the things we talked about, like go be the best point guard, will be the best playing sec, go do all these things, and then when it's time for you to go, he's not there.
So it was just like, I feel I got for a minute to have the hit that I had just lost my purpose. I mean, that was him, that was me and him thing, and then it's just me and I'm seventeen at the time, so it was weird. Do you believe that he's stayed connected with you? Do you feel his presence and whether you're on the court or off the court, do you still feel that there's a strength and a guidance there that even though he's not physically around, he's helping you. Yeah. Uh, I don't know.
They always say that people know that when it's time's coming. I feel like the last couple of months, he kept talking to me about stuff, and I'm just like, dude, I'm seventeen. You know, I we're talking about this. I don't want to talk about it. He's the last couple of months. He was just like, you know, the boss gonna stop bossing one day, you know, make sure you lost college and resources, get your degree and figure it out,
like what is you want to do? Because it was like, I know, you want to have a family and kids one day and you're not gonna be playing to your forty more again. So I think him having those conversations early on with made my transition of you know, walking with from athletics more easier because I have been hearing it for a while. College athletes to a lot of people are living the dream because they're getting to do
something they love. But the challenges you mentioned too, and it's extra challenging there that two do the class work, to stay on track, to get your degree, to have a little enjoyment in life, to have a little fun in college, which is supposed to be part of the college experience. Any regrets at all or was that the path that that you chose and you just you knew what you were getting into. No regrets. I'm thanking for it. I went to college forum on a scholarship, so I
don't have any student loans. Uh. I think that's when um, I don't know, what's it called the waste when athletes starts getting paid. Then we started getting paid like my sophomore year, so we started getting stifers and stuff like that. So all that's a blessing, you know, because I know some of my regular friends like they didn't have it, so you know, I mean, it's it's a blessing to say, at least because student athletes we we it's a privilege.
Looking back on it, I think some of us take advantage of at the time, some people, like you say, some people don't finish, some people transfer and it doesn't work out for him, and then there's still being a regular student. And it's kind of just like a damn ship. Took more advantage of this because I had all these all these access to things. It was successful, it was free, and I just kind of ruined it. I can safe to say you didn't ruin it. You you took advantage
of the opportunities. And what do you think you learned from athletics that you can now apply your career and PEPSI And it's a it's a very good job in a competitive business world. What did you take away from the sports that have helped you and are helping you right now? S accountability, um, step outside your comfort zone, persistent, a lot of things. I was a point guard, so times had to lead the pack, but I'm just silent.
I did by example now I mean sales kind of just like you have to be vocal with the trust your team that they're gonna go do it are executed. But I'm kind of like a hands on. But can I always be hands on? Like that's why you have a team, so they can help you to become very leader and whatnot. But I would say athletics have a lot of transfer transferable skills. As far as um, I don't know. I think we'll just go talk any stranger.
I don't think a lot of people do that. I would say when I hit the shot against you, con I was definitely an entry, which I still am. But when I came back to campus that that week later, whenever we came back, She's like, everybody want to talk to me and take pictures, and I was like, I don't want to do that, and it's not because what I did I wasn't doing that beforehand, so like it was like the culture shock, and then like when people want to talk to me and take pictures at that time,
and I didn't want to do it. They were just like she's there and she's this, and I was just like, excuse you, Like I've always been in the same place. I just don't want to take pictures and do all this stuff all the time. So um, that's that's a different phase. But just going through that whole celebrity fame status is definitely tough for me because I wasn't outspoken. I was an outgoing I went sociable, but defice blessing the skies and alcoholm and still so I do a
lot of that. So I talk strangers, don't interact with people. I don't want to err it, interact with the networry. But now I'm starting to enjoy It's like I became a social butifly when I'm altbum my home is just like after Morgan's heroic shot to beat you kind of the final four. The Bulldogs lost the National Championship Game to their nemesis South Carolina, but the next year morgan senior season, they made another deep run in the n c A tournament. The next year though, you got you
guys make it back to the championship game. And it's so hard to do that. It's so hard to keep it together. You get back to the championship game, it's Notre Dame. It's a game that's close, back and forth. And after you hit the buzzer beater year before to put you guys in the championship game, you now lose the Notre Dame for the National Championship on a buzzer beater and are denied Mississippi States first ever team n c A championship. I know how badly you guys wanted that.
That had to sting back to back years losing at the last stage. Yeah, I mean, we definitely should have won that last year. I could think about karma, like lou be someone buzzer beater, You lose someone buzzer beater, Um, you know we should lost their game up sixteen going to have It's just things happen. It is what it is. But I would say me, my teammates, we enjoyed those,
experienced those moments. Any athlete you know who has opportunity to the n c A tournament to keep advancing especial or something you always remember in charans for the rest of your life. What did you gain from that? All experience provides growth. If it's an intense experience, it can equal intense growth, even if it's a deep disappointment. What, if anything, could you take away from that pair of championship game wasson and say I'm a better, stronger person
for that experience. Yeah, at least you thinks. The first thing I can think of right now is attention to tail is so important? Uh, marginal era, he slammed to none. When you get down to the bottom of the barrel a couple of teams, everything really matters, preparation, everything leading up to it. Um, I would just say focus, attention to to That's that's what I followed a little again, Well, I cannot believe you said attention to detail. That is
my selling point to your young people. I'm gonna sound like an old person talking to young people now, but I think attention to detail in an era where everybody's attention is so scattered, and everybody's trying to do three or four things at once, and it's so easy to lose focus, and it's so easy to not pay attention to details. I mean, now you are in a in a kind of a pressure situation. You're expected to sell big corporation, very competitive industry, you know, the colal worst.
I mean attention to detail. The fact that you got that as a takeaway. I wish more people could come away from their tough experience is realizing that is so much of what doing a good job is about is the small things. Being reliable with the details is so crucial. And it's rare exactly that those one or two things you don't focus on, you get about it. Those things they follow up. Everything comes back for a circle. So you don't everything serious, like everything you prepared for everything
that matters. If you come away from the college experience with friends for life too. And that's one of the things we haven't talked about, but I think that the bonds that people make and create during college years are powerful. You still have a core group that you stay in touch with, you're close to from from your planning days, not that they were that long ago. You know. It's crazy. My junior year when after a famous shot, I think up making like two regular friends, like outside of athletics
and Missy State. That was like my best friends now and as far as like my teammates, I mean I talked to some of them. There is my roommate all four years, but we still kind of like stay in touch. But everybody else kind of like I was just growing up. But it's not like I can't come but hey, what's up? Like we haven't been talking forever, but we spend so much talking with someone for four years straight, all day
every day. It's just like, I mean great, like like I think my mad junior year, I was just like you know, and I leave practice, I don't see any of I don't even want see my roommate. I just want to go see normal people and not talk about basketball. I wanna talk about practice, I wanna talk about game. I don't want to talk about anything. I just want to be normal. That's a sentiment a lot of college
athletes share. If you could talk to yourself back when you were in high school and struggling and not sure what to do, when not sure if college was for you, not not sure basketball was gonna be a passion for you, or talk to someone else who was in your position who was told repeat, really not good enough, too small to this, to that? What would the message be now that you've gained some experience and gained some wisdom. M I mean you control your own destiny. I mean you
know what your cap beloved and not hard. You work for something, you know your strengthen with weaknesses. You know opportunities where you can capitalize on. Um Why why put someone else to control your life? Well, I think those are pretty wise words to leave you with, and I'm very grateful to James Kinnoff, Kendall, Joseph, and Morgan William
for sharing their stories and their perspectives. We hope that both episodes of To Go or Not to Go help contribute to the conversations going on around this interesting topic. If you know others who might benefit from the words of our five guests, you hope you'll spread the word and I love to hear your feedback on Instagram or our brand new website Chris Fowler dot com. As always, thank somebody co executive producer Jennifer Dempster and the Jason
whitehelp for is that any skills? And help in this episode to Miles Coplin, Tim Brey, Holly Row and Josh Lively and is Zach keating for help in Part one our next episode of Filer. Who You've Got, We've got a very old friend, Lance Armstrong. It's a powerful, honest, emotional conversation if you want to check it out and I'll talk to you soon