TO GO OR NOT TO GO? (PART 1)

families are now having that conversation. College costs have just skyrocketed, the job market for graduates is influx, and many very successful people have created their own path without a college degree. We have two Companion episodes on this topic with a total of four guests who are intelligent, thoughtful young people with very different points of view on this two of them who chose college and are using the experience creatively

and successfully. That's an episode two here in part one, the two who chose the non college path, Lady Lazari and Eric Abrons. You know, when I was a playing to schools, the conversation was always like, you know, where do you want to go? Which school do you like the environment? And like which has the best classes? And like what's the best school you can what's the most

prestigious school you can get into? It was never a discussion of Okay, if you go to this school that's going to cost you fifty tho dollars a year versus this school that costs fifteen thousand dollars a year, this is what that really means. Like in the big picture, it was all about just like going to the best school you could get into, and like paying for it

was never really a part of the conversation. And um, that was really mind blowing to me personally, because, um, that's really obviously a very important decision to make for the rest of your life, Like if you saddle yourself with that much debt when you're eighteen, that has that has an effect for really for the rest of your life. It was definitely surreal and honestly a little a little

bit scary and uncomfortable. But that's why I knew it was the right decision, because I knew that I would grow in that uncomfortable space if I accepted, if I embraced what I was doing, and I did. I was so excited about it. But there are definitely times where I was like, I'm leaving social world behind them, leaving my friends behind, I'm leaving maybe partying a lot behind and all those things that people talk about life experiences. You know, you hear that your years of college is

the best best years of your life. So why would I go away? Why why would I turn down the best years of my life? Asking questions like that or what these two episodes are about. I've always been really interested in this topic. Both my parents were college professors, so conversations about the joys and the frustrations of higher

education we're always taking place in my household. I ended up being a lot less educated than my parents, but to the University of Colorado and Boulder, got an undergrand degree in journalism. But I used it, to be honest with you, as a trade school. I was there to acquire very specific skills for my career and the extracurricular media opportunities, part time jobs, making contacts. For those reasons, college was essential. I got no regrets. I enjoyed it,

I was enriched by it. But I've spent a lot of time in the last three decades on college campuses, listening to students and professors and administrate, and I hear a lot of them in a very different place to me. A lot of college students are missing opportunities. They're not tapping into their potential and all the possibilities of the college experience. They seemed like spectators to their own education, walking through waiting for what's next, wasting time, energy, and money,

probably their parents money. So conversations in these two episodes will hopefully help you avoid going down that kind of path. To our first guest, now, Laney Lazari from Pittsburgh. Laney has a pretty extraordinary backstory and how she came to

her decision to bypass college. Since she was a baby, she suffered from eczema and nothing that various dermatologists prescribed worked, So as a third grader, she took things into her own hands, started googling, searching for options with less chemicals, and finally, after the grocery store, Laney ended up in the family kitchen and created a sugar scrub. Laney says a complete cleared up prexima. So she shared the product with friends and then, as an eighth grader, launched her company,

Simple Sugars. Then about seventeen, to promote her products, she left high school for about a month and a half and took a road trip with her mom. Basically, what we did was had did a twenty six city tour. So we stopped in basically every major city between here in l A and and back. UM, and in each place, I was doing events with any of our customers. UM. In those towns, I was doing pr I was doing all kinds of social media. So it kind of became

this thing where like you could follow the trip. We were like driving this really old car, so part of it was like, you know, kind of waiting to see if like the car broke down or like if we made it. UM. And we had a thing where people could like sponsor like a tank of gas for us. So we had customers who would like sponsor a tank of gas, and we would like every time we would get to a gas station, we'd like film a little

shout out to them. Shark Tank notice is this nationwide tour and calls you up and says, hey, lady at eighteen, come in pitch your business for the Sharks and ask for a substantial investment for a piece of the company. You weren't nervous at all about that. Yes, and no, there's your billionaires in front of you that can control perhaps the future of the company. And it'saw national television,

by the way, and I've seen many people. Even though those pitches are heavily edited, you know that people are paying their pants when they're in front of that group. Purpose. Well,

the thing for me was two things. First of all, you know, again, like I kind of said before, I had already been in the business for so long that I felt very prepared going into my Shark Tank pitch, because, um, the thing about Shark Tank is, you know, there's a very small portion that's rehearsed, which is like that first like minute and a half when you first walk in and they're like telling them the pitch on your business. But once you start the question and answers, none of

that's prepared beforehand. So a side from just being ready to like have a conversation with them and there's nothing to really rehearse or like worry that you're going to forget or anything like that, because you know, if you really know everything there is to know about your business, um, there's not really very much they can throw at you

that you don't know how to answer. Um. So and and the thing for me was, you know, my company was still just me at the time, so I was the one handling all of the sales, handling all of the financials um going over all of the numbers, so I was so close to everything because I was the only one in the business that it gave me a lot of confidence because I was dealing with all of

that stuff in the day to day. It's not like I had a whole team and I had to worry about like, oh, did my accountant like teach me these numbers, because I was the one doing the numbers, so um

that really helped a lot. And the other thing about doing Shark Tank is it's such a whirlwind when you go to film there, Like you're on this like big like Sony lot in l A. And like the whole schedule is really crazy, Like they don't tell you when anything is happening, just kind of like waiting and then they're like, okay, like you need to be ready to

go now. So you're kind of like running around all over the place and they're in the meantime, they're filming things like you entering and like reaction shots and like stuff like that, so you're getting your set ready. So there's so much going on that day that um, for me, there wasn't really that much time to get nervous because I was kind of like just like so excited to

be there and like enjoy that experience. So um, it definitely helped, you know, have all of that happening, and it kind of distracts you from the fact that you're about to go in and make this really big pitch. Yeah. I think it's a fascinating show for that reason because those pitches are all very well rehearsed. All the people

who have created those companies live those products. But then they have that surreal out of body experience that they're standing in front of, you know, billionaires and multimillionaires and trying to uh pitch when it really counts. So all the sharks are impressed with you and your company. But for three admit wasn't a fit Mark Cuban, who sun an experience in Maxima. It was a good inn action.

You would go in in asking, I believe for a hundred thousand dollars in exchange for ten percent of your company. Is that right? Ended up getting that that amount of capital, but you had to give a third of the company to Mark Cuban in terms of his support. So you walk out of the room like that's a huge w right. I feel badly for the people to walk in their pitch and then no nobody goes with them. Yeah, for sure, And I mean that's always a possible outcome if people

don't know. There's a gap in time between when a shark tank pitch and the episode is taped and when it actually airs, and to preserve the drama of those moments, that people aren't allowed to say what happens. So you can't you come out of that experience. Mark Cuban's gonna give you um the capital you need, but you can't tell anybody. But you said that it it was an overnight explosion. Uh, once that decision is made and you're gonna get that money coming in all of a sudden, you have to

rapidly shift gears will also keeping a lid on things, right. Yeah, it's a really weird time. So it was like six month of time where I wasn't allowed to tell anyone aside from my mom, Like, none of my other family members were allowed to know, none of my employees were allowed to know. My mom was the only one, and that was because she went out to tape with me. Um who was allowed to know that we like had

partnered with Mark. So that was like a huge secret to keep and you're not allowed to tell anyone until after the episode airs because they wanted to be a surprise. Um. And it gets even weirder when you then get this investment money and you're kind of like, okay, now, for like the first time, we have money to be able to like do some things, but we also have to make sure like no one figures out that we actually got this money yet. So it's a very weird situation

to be in. So having a supportive school and having supportive parents as you pursue these alternative choices is put you away ahead of the game. Not not all young entrepreneurs are lucky enough. But your school, your prep school, the expectation has to be college. Right. You grind in the s a t, you get good grades, You try to get into the best possible college. I'm sure for a lot of your classmates, Ivy League was the goal.

And when it came time for you to talk about your next chapter in life, which for most is college, what was the what was the internal conversation and that

what were the conversations with with your family and others? Like, Yeah, it was a really um weird experience trying to figure out what to do with myself after high school basically because you know, I had um worked really hard, um to grow my business to the point that that we were at during my senior year, and um, we were gaining a lot of momentum, and I knew that it was like not going to be the right time to

step away from the company. Like my gut told me that it was absolutely not the right thing to do to leave it at that point. UM. At the same time, you know, I did go to like a college prep school where, like you said, the goal was to get into an Ivy League school, take as many A p s as you can, get the highest score on your SSA t s, and you know, go to the best school you can get into. UM. So I was on

a very different track than that. So it was kind of year because on one hand, I'm very lucky that my parents were very supportive of my decision to potentially not go to school. UM. My mom had always told me, like from the time that I was a kid that she wanted me to take a gap here. So she my mom is very non traditional. So I'm really lucky that that I was in that situation and didn't also

have to fight like my parents on that um. But at the same time, there's a lot of pressure coming from teachers, friends, friends, parents who were kind of like what, like what do you mean You're not gonna go to college? And like even after um Shark Tank and after I had decided not to go to school, I would like run into random people, like in a coffee shop or something like friends of a I mean parents of a friend, and they'd be like, oh, are you still doing your sugars?

Like when are you going to go to school? And like this but we're like four years out from that and like this is so not the point right now, like, and a lot of people like looked at it as like people would tell my mom they were like, oh, like it's great that your your daughter is doing this. That's going to be a great way for her to get into college. And my mom will always be like, that's that's not the point of this either, Like this is not like something we're doing to like try to

look good on a college applicatient. This is like so much bigger than this. But um, I was in an environment that was not very aside from my parents, I was in an environment that was not really very receptive to kind of those alternatives. So it was a weird position to be in. UM. I ended up applying to schools and committing at GW University UM mostly as a fallback. I was kind of like, I'm gonna definitely take a

gap year. I'm still gonna like commit to school, and I'll see what happens in my year, my year of working full time, and then kind of like make that decision next year. And that was kind of how I approached it. And then when it comes came time to make the decision to not go, it was pretty much a no brainer for me. UM. And uh, you know, the decision was really easy at that point. You told me before you didn't have a college fund stock with cash.

You did get a scholarship, but you would have had to take out substantial student loans and go way in debt to go to George Washington and have a four year education. So being a smart businesswoman already at your stage there, you understood return on investment r o I for short, but you said, no one when college was discussed ever mentioned to you. Here's what it's gonna cost. It's going to be expensive. Here's what you can expect and it's I know, it's hard to know these things.

That depends on the school and the major and what your job is. But that conversation was never had. But the expensive college and going way into debt to get that degree. Yeah, no, But we never had any conversations about actually paying for school. And like, you know, I did go to UM, a private school, so I was definitely in an environment with a lot of people who were privileged enough to have college funds and parents who could pay for them to go to whatever school they

wanted to go to, but not everyone UM. And you know, in my case, my college fund was like less than two thousand I think my college fund had in it or something like that, so not even enough to make a debt intuition. And you know, when I was playing to schools, the conversation was always like, you know, where do you want to go? Which school do you like the environment? And like which has the best classes, and like what's the best school you can what's the most

prestigious school you can get into. It was never a discussion of Okay, if you go to this school that's going to cost you fifty thousand dollars a year versus this school that cost fifteen thousand dollars a year. This is what that really means. Like in the big picture, it was all about just like going to the best school you could get into, and like paying for it

was never really a part of the conversation. And um, that was really mind blowing to me personally, because, um, that's really obviously a very important decision to make for the rest of your life. Like if you saddle yourself with that much debt when you're eighteen, that has that has an effect for really for the rest of your life.

And like in my case, um, I did get a partial scholarship to GW, but I still would have been looking at taking out like between forty and forty five thousand dollars a year or in loans to to pay

for school. And um, when it ultimately came time for me to make that decision to drip out my admission, it was really hard for me to look at that and not be like, Okay, I'm gonna about to invest four years of my time and go into like two thousand dollars almost worth of debt to go to school, or I cannot go and continue staying and working on my business and actually making money instead of putting myself

in debt. And it was really hard to like not look at that and you know, realize what the return on that investment was going to be and make the decision that way because I had kind of like that business mind already. But um, you know, I was just always shocked that like that was never really discussed with people, because I think that's a really important part of the conversation. That's a lot of the times missing. Well, there are

tangible and intangible benefits to a college education. There's no disputing that. Um. The tangible again, it depends on how much you're spending on school, what's your major, is, what kind of job you can get, and then it'll a period of time, sometimes twenty thirty years perhaps to to get back that initial return if you're going to an expensive school. So again, those situations very case by case.

You clearly did not need a college education or a college degree to run your business successfully, but you probably would have needed it to get hired by somebody else. So there's that system that's in place. It says you are only as good as this piece of paper from a school says you are, and that's that's still a reality, right. I mean, you couldn't have gotten hired to be a CEO or CFO or anything else at a company like yours if you didn't have that piece of paper, Yeah

for sure. And you know that was always kind of like part of the risk I was taking and deciding not to go to school was you know, Um, there was kind of always this question of like, you know, if something happens in the business fails, like what do I do then? Because then I was going to be in a position where I didn't have a degree. So stress about that I keep you up. I mean, you're you're full charging, theors are going great for the business.

Behave things change fast in business? Yeah for sure. I mean not anymore now I'm kind of like beyond that point. But um, you know, in the in the first few years after I made that, just that decision, that was like a very scary thing, um, because anything can happen. Um. And you know, now we we've been in business for fifteen years. We have like a track record, so it's much more comfortable now because it would be really hard for something to happen like overnight that would um, you know,

dramatically impact business. But at the same time. Um, you know, you never know, and like in the first in the early years, it was kind of like, yeah, well we could have two really good years and then that could

kind of be it. So that was definitely, you know, a really scary thing, especially because you know, I was only twenty at the time, so I had like a whole life ahead of myself, and I was there was always this question of like, well, what would I do if the business was no longer an option, like without having a degree. So you get Mark Cubans capital and his guidance. Things are going really well, and then you have an occasion to meet the folks from the Teal Fellowships.

Peter tell most people probably know a billionaire venture capitalist, co founder a PayPal and other projects, and they have a program for entrepreneurs to either drop out of school your case, never go to school, and you get a six figure grant and you're allowed to pursue your your your vision. You've already got capital, you've already got a

business up and running. But what about that that fellowship excite you other than the extra infusion of cash, and I guess the chance to make connections and me folks.

Part of what was really great and valuable for me about joining the Teal Fellowship was meeting a lot of other people who were kind of, um in a similar track to myself, because it was the first time I had ever really gotten to experience that, Like I in my whole life up until that point, I was always like the only one that was doing things like this, and um, it's really hard to get people young people who were like in college to actually like understand and

appreciate what it's like to be like running a company. Like it's just kind of like so different that people uh don't don't really um get it, I guess for lack of a better way to put that. And um, that was always, you know, a difficult thing for me because I was like, uh working doing this very real thing, and all my friends were kind of off at college and for a while it was kind of like, Okay, we have like nothing in common that we could even like talk about right now. UM, So that was that

was a great part of it. And you know, the other thing about the Deal Fellowship too was they're just really really valuable connections, really interesting people to talk to, and um, it's so cool to be um involved in something like that. To see people who were doing really um interesting, impactful things and just so many you know, really really smart, amazing people, and um, it's awesome to be in a group of really smart, really capable people like that and know that it's all people who also

didn't go to college. I always tell people when I'm gonta masked, trying not to keep unsolicited advice. But I loved speaking to younger people. And one of the of things I always try to say is it is never important to figure out exactly what you want to do for money, but figure out exactly what you want your life to look like in terms of structure, not structure being a part of a bigger system, with with the discipline that's imposed, but also a structive that many people

find attractive versus being your own boss. Now, what's attractive about entrepreneurship to people your age and really people of any ages. You can create your own thing, and you can be your own boss and write your own rules in some respect. But everybody thinks it's far far easier than it is. I mean, if everybody could do this, start their own business, be their own boss, make money,

never answered anybody. I mean, my my god, they'd all be doing it, but only a very few can get to the point where your business is Yeah, And it's an interesting and first of all, I have never been like a structure person ever. Um, I do really well with lack of structure. UM. And I always knew that, Like that kind of goes back to like taking all this time off from like high school and stuff like, like like the structure of high school was really hard for me. Um.

And you know that was part of it too. Like, regardless of whether I had this business or not, I do not think I would have done well in college just because there's like so much structure and like I am not that kind of person. But running your company, now, don't you have to create a structure and a discipline. I mean obviously you know your days are filled with meetings and things like that, so there's a built in

structure to running a successful business. It's just you're in charge of the structure right right exactly, And you know that structure also also kind of depends. And like the thing is, um, you know, when I started my company,

it was really really hard in the beginning. Um, Like when we went through Shark Tank and experience like really rapid overnight growth, Like those were in the same times, and I was working like from like I'm not even exaggerating, So I would be getting the office at seven am and not leave until three am. I'd like go home, eat dinner, like take a shower, sleep for two hours, and like go back to the office again. And I did that every day for like two months while we

were a good thing. You were young doing that sleep in a few hours or something. Yeah, um, And you know that was just kind of like how it needed to be to get through that. And you know, in the first few years, I had to, um be really hands on with everything, so you know, I would be in the office like working crazy hours every day. And then as time goes on, you know, you start to get a little bit more flexibility as you build a team and kind of move into and which more phase

of growth. So now we're to the point where I'm kind of um on the other side of that and starting to actually like get some of the flexibility that comes with um, you know, creating a job for yourself and like being the CEO of the company and things where you know, if I want to, um go and do something like randomly in the morning on a Wednesday and not show if it work until noon and then make up those hours in the evening. I can do that if I want to, And like, that's kind of

how I like to be able to live my life. Um. I'm also like not a morning person. I'm the kind of person that, like my most productive hours are like in the evenings and sometimes even like in the middle of the night. So um, I like to be able to just like embrace that and take advantage of when I like to work and be able to, like your employees better keep their phone on for those three am emails, now,

I let that I have that same. We're all about the flexibility at Simple Sugars, so that kind of applies to everyone. And actually most people who work for me choose to work early in the morning, so a lot of the time, like they'll be working and I'll wake up to like a bunch of things from them like at like eight in the morning because they've all been like clocked in for way longer. And that's it's but it just kind of works like we work it between both of us, between all of us. So um, yeah,

it's been Um that's that's the thing about it. Like you said, it's really not easy. It's really hard in the beginning. There's a lot of times where you kind of lose a lot of your kind of ability to have a life outside of your business for a while. But um, kind of once you get through that that initial kind of startup phase, you do start to get it back and kind of get a lot of the benefits um that I think a lot of people think they're going to get, like in your one, that really

don't come until you're like twelve. Um. And that's that's the thing that you have to keep in perspective about it is like you're really in the long haul when you start doing something like this. It's not going to happen overnight. Your family. You have two younger brothers and their agendas might be different, their goals might be different. But I also have made the choice not to go from high school right into college. Obviously your parents were

understanding with their situation as well as yours. But talk about that because it's not just now Landy is not going to school, it's it's the two brothers who Wren and people must be looking at this family, what is what is going on here? Yeah? Exactly, Um, Yeah, both of my younger brothers have decided not to go on to school, UM, at least right away. My one brother is twenty two and the other one is nineteen now. UM,

they both have jobs. One of my brothers decided to um go enjoin the carpenters Union, so he's learning a trade, UM, which is a um, really good fit for him. Like he's the kind of person that. UM. He had a lot of trouble with the structure of school also, although

for other reasons. UM, he was kind of like my example of like what would have happened if I had been in public school and been trying to deal with things because like my mom ended up in court like a bunch of times for him, like not going to school on time and not showing up for class and stuff like that. UM. But he's you know, he just found the thing that was really the right fit for him.

And UM it's really you know, encouraging to see someone who's able to go out and do that, um and just find their thing and UM kind of like find what works for them and UM, you know, for me, obviously, it was a very different type of scenario. UM. So it's not like they were really like following in my footsteps or anything, and like looking at their older sister and being like, oh, well she did this instead of going to college, so that's what I'm gonna do. They

very much found their own paths. But um, you know, again, like we're all very four ton it that we had, um parents who were receptive to that and didn't like have um kind of like that pressure of like you have to go to school, that's the only option. Um. But you know, I think that's true for for very many people. Like obviously there's some people that college is

fit for. I'm not ever gonna, um, you know, say that it's not right for anyone, But there's also a lot of people who it's really not right for, and the expectation is that that's going to be the only thing. Um. And it's also like, you know, you're kind of looked down on if you decide not to go to college. It's like that's a bad option, which isn't always true because you know, like in the case of my brother,

for example, he is working. He's not going to have any school debt, and um, he's gonna you know be in a position to like make really good money when he's done with like his training program. So that's really not a bad choice to make, especially when you consider the fact that you know there are people who have to go into really significant debt that they'll have to pay off for the rest of their life just to

be able to go to school. And more importantly, beyond the money, he may have found something he's passionate about, that he enjoys doing to create, and that's really what it's about. It's there's so many considerations other than is

this a smart financial decision? It says, are you going to be happy continuing on that tread and then going in from the treadmill of college for the treadmill of the world where the expectations are very rigid, and listen, if you can find something that you love to do and you're passionate about, and it doesn't have to be for life, but at the moment, and that that's that's the smart choice. Happy, This is the smart choice exactly.

That's always the most important thing is finding something that you're going to enjoy and that's gonna make you happy. And if that if the past to get to that thing is not college, then you shouldn't go to college. Well, you're an inspiration to a lot of girls who maybe have been told it's not possible, you're crazy, not a smart choice. The odds are long. You heard all those things many, many, many times, and you know the odds are long, but you have what it takes to to

get there. And I think that mess which is important, that if you work hard enough and it's a good fit for you, it is possible. Yeah. Well the thing too is, like, you know, when I first started doing this, when I was eleven, like there was nothing like really particularly exceptional about me. And like I don't say that to be like derogatory about myself. I just say that to me, Like no one I wasn't. I didn't have

parents who had like money to fund my business. I didn't have parents who had experience like growing their own businesses before. Like there was really nothing, um that was that was there at that point to like make you think, oh, this person like really like has the tools to like

turn this into a successful business. It was just that, Um that was what I like set my mind to and I worked to get to the point where, um, you know, I I learned the skills that I needed to be successful with it, and that was really what it was about was just working hard and like being willing to be committed to it and um, like I said, just like learning as I went along and uh and working hard. But that was really like what that all came down to, And what that means is that anyone

can really do it. Like there was nothing special about me that kind of gave me a leg up on that. It was all just things I worked for. It goes without saying that you couldn't have foreseen fifteen years ago when you're eleven in your mom's kitchen where you go now, But what would you say to that girl who's eleven years old kind of just trying to solve her own skin problem about the whirlwind that you've you've experienced less fifteen years. What would your message to her be? Oh

my gosh, that's difficult. I guess my message would just be get ready for for quite an adventure, UM and you know, just just to like not be afraid of where it's going to take you, UM, because I think that's scary. Sometimes it's scary when you like try to think about, you know, where you want to end up and you don't really have an answer for that. Um. But also sometimes with the best things it's hard to have that answer. Sometimes you just kind of have to go along for the ride, and and by that I

mean obviously you're working hard at the same time. It's not like it's just like taking you for a ride. But sometimes you just kind of have to follow it and see where you end up. To me, that is wise because there's so much focused by young people on their distant future, not the day to day growth and improvement to create the future that they want. Landy's future

certainly appears to be very bright. Recently, Mark Cuban said in an interview that Simple Sugars has been the most successful investment he's made in his time on Shark Tank. That is some high praise for Landy Lazari and her chosen path. To check out her wide range of impressive products, visit simple Sugars skincare dot com. Next up, you've got Eric Abrons. He's a twenty one year old from New York City who was a talented basketball player. Girl want

a very dedicated to it. Always hoped to play college basketball, maybe at a powerhouse like Duke. Then late in high school he shifted his attention away from hoops, decided college wasn't going to be in his future. He did go for a semester to sort of sample the experience, but knowing he wasn't going to stay. Eric has some very firm opinions on college. I suspect when you listen to this a lot of you're gonna be shaking your heads. Many of you also nodding your heads in agreement. Might

depend on what generation you're from. This is a different sounding conversation from others in this podcast. I should explain the tone here is pretty blunt and direct. That's because I know Eric well. You grew up in the same neighborhood in New York that Jennifer and I lived in for a long time. We've had plenty of conversations, occasionally very spirited debates. I will challenge him, he will challenge me. But we're friends and we continue to learn from each other.

This segment is about Eric's experiences and his views. One of the words you use to describe yourself is dropout. Why because it's straightforward. I don't like to dance around that I'm taking a leap year or I'm taking time off. That's the way that I looked at it. I'm dropping out of school. I'm dropping out of the conventional path that most people are on. And so rather than try to sugarcoat it or make it sound better so that it's more socially acceptable, I just want to be transparent

and honest with people and myself. Even it's a label, you know, it has a negative connotation to some people. You didn't finish what you started. You're supposed to finish what you start in this world. It seems like you almost where it is a badge of honor? Or is it the label you use because it's going to provoke

questions and maybe a conversation. Yeah, I think it's more to provoke people to think more about maybe what they're doing, because I, if anything, being myself fully and doing something that most people aren't going to do and even look at me maybe weirdly, or like, why is he doing this when he had the opportunity he was in school

and he left. Why do that? And so it's more to get people to think about what other options are there, what other paths are there, and how can I live my life without having to do things in the structured way? And so I think that's that's somewhat of the approach. And you know, I just like to be confident and just say like, yeah, I dropped that up school and I'm happy with that decision. And you know, for me, that's one of the greatest decisions I've made in my life.

You know, at this point at least, Yeah, we'll get into all that and what you do to educate yourself in a non traditional way. You're going up Upper West Side of New York, comfortable situation, private prep school. What were the expectations for the kids in that school as in terms of their future to do well in school, you know, and to go to college and to you know, figure out your majors and what you want to do

in life. But it was like when I was in that situation, I was looking around and I didn't see that path. I didn't jive with that. Whynot because I didn't see myself in any job that existed. I didn't see myself in a nine to five path. I didn't want to be a part of the system. I really wanted to explore life like that was, I guess the main thing. And there's so much consumption in being in

a school environment. You have homework, you have tests, you have all these things that are even affecting your self esteem, and you're comparing yourself to your friends and the people around you, who was doing the best in your class for example, like people people know that, and I didn't want to be a part of that, that system, that hierarchy. So what stage in your education did you figure out that this system of competition and high pressure and and

having your expectations mapped up for you? What point did you figure this doesn't feel right to men belong here. It wasn't quite conscious, but I would say even like middle school, seventh grade, things didn't feel right. And for me in my school, like that's when we started to get great. A lot of kids got grades even earlier, which for me, I think that would have affected me even you know, more negatively, I guess, because then you're

writing that system earlier. But by the time I got to high school, it's just I had more and more questions and I just wanted to pretty much do the bare minimum, Like I had pretty much academic potential that I had no business and fulfilling. That's sort of the way that I would look at it. Eric, You're a smart kid. Why do you not do better? Why do you not apply yourself? Why do you not try to

make the most of these educational opportunities. You had to hear that, Yeah, I mean I heard it all the time from several teachers, and they I didn't really want to. I didn't felt I didn't feel like explaining myself all the time, and I just pretty much said, like, this

is what I felt like doing. I I always left room for things that I was doing outside of school, and so it's like I'm only going to spend a certain amount of time on an assignment, on an essay, on this, and on that, because all the other time was spent exploring myself, working on myself, playing basketball, doing all these things so I could figure out myself more because you don't really do that in school. You're figuring out how to do well within that. But then that framework,

you think, that's what education was at that level. Even these a high schools where the resources are the envy of the country. This is not a public school system that's scraping for resources and scraping for funding. Is supposed to have a high quality of teachers. No, and yet you felt like there just wasn't anything there other than getting ready to take tests and be educated in the future. Well, I think there was a lot of learning, but I

mean a lot of it was memorization. A lot of it was they had an idea of what an a was, of what was and it's for example, like if you read a book, they had one idea of what the right thinking was, and so if you weren't within that, then you didn't get a good grade. And it's like there was no room to be outside of the box. That that view among your peers. Yeah, I mean I I didn't like it, and I mean my grades definitely

showed that. I mean, I was a beast student. I wasn't a terrible scene, but I certainly was not a great student. You know, as I've said, like I pretty much wanted to do what I had to do. But even so I got I got a lot of shift from people, you know, like I people, uh even even even some of my friends, like didn't really understand because they'd be working after school and the library stuff, and I'd be like, no, I don't really want to do that. I'll I'll do my assignment at like ten o'clock at

night and try to just get done quickly. So your friends, your friends, you're grinding on the s a c s. They're worried about what colleges are going to get into, They're worried about their next step. You're not with that. That's not your senior year experience. No, definitely not. I mean I felt the pressure, and if anything, the the pressure and feeling down at certain points definitely led me to become even more aware, to challenge things even more,

to questions things even more. And that's when you know, I start watching lots of videos online learning about people who have taken alternative paths, people who had dropped out and how they had lived their lives, such as such as which people Gary Baynerchuk, I mean, that's like a huge name. Like he was one of the first people that I came across who was screaming like, you don't have to go to school, like there are other alternatives, this is not your education. He would show his his

school you know, grades and all of that. He was like, I gotta d in this and f in this and now look at me, which is pretty much when I first started getting very successful investor in entrepreneur. Yeah. Yeah, And you know most people would be like those are the exceptions, and I'd be like, Okay, well why can I be one of those exceptions. So you're senior year as different, but you do go to skid More, a private school, and Upstate in New York for a semester.

So you arrive at school and you're taking this step that you don't really want to take. What does that feel like for a semester? I mean, it felt like I was exploring something that I could at least get a little taste of what this college life was like. And I'm definitely happy that I did it. I'm definitely happy that I had that experience. But at the same time, I kind of did the same thing in school. I didn't do that well, and I was working on a

lot of things. I had already started my social media, I was creating content. I was doing all my things outside of school much more than I was inside of school.

But same time, I got to pick classes that I was interested in, and I met some you know, professors that I got along with really well, like my psychology professor, who was awesome and we had great conversations, and you know, he pretty much told me when I told him that I was dropping out of school that you know, as long as you're not sitting around twiddling your thumbs, then go for it. I'm surprised that an educator would say go for it. He's part of the system. He was

a very different guy. I mean he gave an open house speech and flip flops and a tiedyed shirt, so he was he was very very out there. But you know, the conversations we had were much more deep than just what's going on in school? Like who am I? Like those kind of questions like what is this experience to mean to me? Like I don't just want to be distracted and consume the whole time. I want to seek, I want to learn, I want to read things that

I'm interested in. And you know that didn't really happen until I left school, until I left that sort of institutionized world and all of those pressures, as there's so many of them. So a semester in college, what can you say you learned in college that brief experience with it.

I would say I mainly learned from observing, Like That's what I learned a lot, because I'm always someone who just walks around and I'm just like looking at what other people are doing, how they're behaving, even in the classroom, just sitting there and I'm pretty silent in the classroom. I never raised my hand, I never spoke, And there are times where I really felt like saying something, but I guess I just couldn't bring myself to say. It

just didn't feel worth it to me. I would be in philosophy classes and people would be talking about all of these things, and I was just like, in my head, I'm like, oh God, I just I didn't. It seemed like all of these views were so conventional and socially acceptable, you know, even when people were talking about different paths.

And at one point in our philosophy class, they were talking about social media and they were kind of like putting down that that avenue and I'm just sitting there, like, I'm on social media. It's kind of funny, but you felt like you had things to say, and something kept you from raising your hand and participating in the class. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I it's because you knew you were going to hang around for very long. You felt like an imposture there. Yeah, I mean I definitely felt like somewhat

of an outsider. That could have been also just a story that I told myself. And you know, there are many reasons why I didn't want to talk. I was in my head a lot. I've always been interpreted. I've always been shy. I've always been a quiet kid. But it's like I've lived in my awareness. I've lived like within myself almost, but it's like there's always a back and forth, like I've had that relationship with myself. It's like me talking to my awareness. And so I would

learn a lot from just being in the environment. Sometimes sometimes a new idea would present itself in a class and then I wouldn't talk in that class. But then I'll go and I'll research that idea myself. Yeah, and so what do you do? Well, let's back up first. I want to ask the decision to leave. What was that like? So your days are winding down, you go home after a semester break and at the decision already been made, you were going to come back or did

you decide after that semester? Well, there was one point where I was just like, this is not for me,

and I knew I was going to drop it. I knew it was just a matter of time, and opportunities outside of school were starting to present himself and I couldn't really take up those opportunities if I was in school and then I had sort of spoken to my dad and he didn't want me to keep staying there because originally I planned to stay the full year, and then he just kind of said, like, I'm just gonna take you out now, like there's really no point in in keeping you here because I was, you know, I

think I was starting to fail like a class or two, and it just wasn't headed in the best direction. And I was doing all these things, and it's like, why not devote all my time to those things that I was working on? Why not learn more outside of this space? Because I was doing that anyway. I was learning so much out to the classroom. I go home and read a book that wasn't that that was an assigned to me. I'd watched a video that had nothing to do with

what I was being taught in in my class. But at least it was sparking an interest to maybe go in a different direction or go farther in the same direction. I'll circle back to that you mentioned your dad. Most people's parents would not react well to the idea of dropping out of a of a nice private college after one semester. Yeah, those conversations were already I had already had those conversations with my mom and dad because there was a point where I was like, I don't want

to go to college at all. So even going to college, they had an idea that I wasn't going to stay now. I thought they thought that I might stay longer, that I wouldn't leave after one semester, because that's pretty quick. Um, But you know, my dad, my dad was pretty accepting. He he was looking into a lot of the the ideas of not being in school and how that could

actually be really beneficial. And he saw that I was working really hard, that I was committed and discipline to actually doing something with my time outside of school, that I had somewhat of a plan. I didn't know exactly where I was going from it. There was a lot of uncertainty and a lot of unknown but that was something that really excited me. Like, I think they saw

my passion, They saw my drive towards those things. They saw all the work that I put in and that I mean that started in basketball and weightlifting, but all those things translating translated to just you know, when you struck away the vehicles, just improvement just development, just seeking to know more and to understand myself better. So when the feeling arrives that that's it, that I'm done with school, I'm on this path. It's entrepreneurship, but self education, self discovery,

whatever you call it, all of those things. Probably what what was the feeling like when the finality was there and you realize that you're educational process that began when you were barely conscious at four years old is over. It was definitely surreal and honestly a little a little bit scary and uncomfortable. But that's why I knew it was the right decision, because I knew that I would grow in that uncomfortable space if I accepted it, if I embraced what I was doing. And I did, I

was so excited about it. But there are definitely times where I was like, I'm leaving the social world behind, I'm leaving my friends behind, I'm leaving maybe partying a lot behind, and all those things that people talk about life experiences. You know, you hear that your years of college are the best best years of your life. So why would I go away? Why why would I turn down the best years of my life? And that's because

I just think that I perceived things differently. I wanted to see things from who I am, and I've always trusted my intuition, my integet it didn't have to make sense to other people. And that's what I wanted to explore more, making decisions that I don't even have to explain to myself, where it's just like, this is what my intuition is telling me. I know deep down what is best for me, and so you can show me, you know the stats of how maybe kids who drop

out of college arnist successful. You can show me all the things that are logical and rational, that makes sense, and that doesn't really matter, that doesn't really affect me, because if something within me is pulling me in a direction, I've always trusted that. Like going from stopping playing basketball, I wanted to play in the NBA, as ridiculous as that may sound, Basketball was my entire life, and eventually I had to listen to myself. I had a lot

of pressure to play college of basketball. For example, a lot of people when I stopped playing basketball were really surprised, like what's going on? You know you're now you're starting a fitness Instagram, Like what is this this is so weird. I definitely got a lot of weird looks. I got people making fun of me. Didn't think that anything would

come of it. Like jokingly, I remember asking my younger brother, like, when I get to ten thousand followers, just a small milestone, and he was like, oh, like you won't have your Instagram And you know, I just kept going. I always just kept going. And Yeah, better to explain to other people or choose not to than have to explain to yourself your decisions. And you had had to explain to yourself and rationalize to yourself decisions to stay in school.

It sounds like yeah. And I think that a lot of people look at regret as if if I if I do something, I might regret it. I looked at it the opposite way, that if I don't do something, that I'll regret it. And then I think that most of the things we do regretting, like are the things

that we don't do. And I think that if I didn't make the decision that I made, if I didn't listen to myself, that I regret that, and that my intuition would slowly become dormant and I wouldn't be able to trust myself, and I think that that's why a lot of people get lost, because they trust things outside of themselves more than they trust things within themselves. And how is your self education going compared to learning in a more structured environment with a curriculum that's laid out

for you. I mean, I could have never imagined where it would have taken me, because it's like going down a rabbit hole. It's like you explore one idea takes you to the next thing. And it's at first, I'm just watching a lot of motivational videos and it's a bit more mainstream, like Eric Thomas, work hard, you want to succeed as bad as you want to breathe, and you'll be successful with that kind of stuff. And then it's watching Ted talks, and then it's going into philosophy

and it's getting into these complex ideas. But I was just so interested in these things and I started resonate with them, and then I started to have experiences that correlated with the actual books that I was reading and these people who had such strange lives, and it's like I understood the people that I was reading more than I understood people my age. Carl Young for example, other influences. Yeah, yeah, just lots of people who who were so fascinated and

studied the human mind, the human experience. Because I think, in some sense, a lot of us are in a bubble. We're in our own little world, and I wanted to get away from that. I wanted to explore life on my own terms. I wanted to explore this experience, not just a lot of things that I would talk about are sort of on the surface level. I wanted to

go below this. But some would say that's what college is about, get out of your own bubble, learning from other people who are fellow students, their ideas, their experiences, their backgrounds which can be very different from yours. There's a lot to be learned in college, Like I think there's more to be learned outside the classroom than in

the classroom. Not linear learning from an educator in front of a room, but student to student, a peer to peer learning, and you're you're not going to have those kinds of experiences. So some would say you're much more in your own bubble than you would be if you're in a college campus. Well, I think it's hard to learn when you're learning from a place that isn't grounded,

and that's sort of what I wanted to do. Like you perceive and you experience the world, and you interact with others from your bigs like you're the center of your own world. And at the same time, in terms of socializing, it's like I'm in the whole world now, I could speak to people of all different ages, you know, I can create relationships with for example, like Dr Jaffie, Dr Russell Jaffie, who's like seventies something years old, and I relate more to him than some kids my age.

So within college, most kids are your age, you know, one to four year difference pretty much. And I didn't feel that I should stay in college and risk so much opportunity just for the social aspect, just to be around other kids my age. But I totally understand it, and it makes it makes sense. It's not like I don't see the reasoning for how that's helpful, for how that can set you up for success in in some ways.

But I also feel like a lot of kids are trying to get to know each other when they have no idea who they are. And it's like I hear a lot of people talking about how they come out of college more confused and more lost than they did going into college as people that yeah, yeah, I have those conversations lots of times. And you know, I even see some of my friends come back from from school from breaks, and I mean a lot of them are really just there to have a good time. And there's

nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with having a good time. But I think that a lot of people look at college. Obviously, you get to make what you want out of college, but a lot of people are that are just there to be away from home, which I definitely think you grow from that when you're away from your parents, when you're on your own, you're independent, and but a lot of it is just spending time

with other people and and partying. And then school is like secondary, so to would degree, the education is secondary.

You know, it's just one of those things again where this inner voice is like, this is not meant for you, and you know that that voice just got louder and louder and louder, and my relationship with it became stronger and stronger and stronger, and it wasn't always clear, but it never led me in a direction that wasn't that wasn't authentic, and like, that's more what it was living living authentically. What do your days look like in terms of your self education? And where does the discipline come

from to do that? Because given absolute freedom, an absolutely virtual lack of responsibility will get to that a little bit later in terms of the company you've started, and

responsibilities will begin to be attached to that. But without that structure, the self discipline to continue to push yourself and challenge yourself and and and learn things that are not in your lane, in your comfort zone, that you that you are not interested in, because part of growth is learning about things you didn't know you were interested

in until you start of diving into it, right. I mean, I've a lot of the discipline and hard work and consistency came from other things that I had done earlier in life, and then I just had to apply them to these things. I would be in the gym playing basketball three hours after a school day, and then in the weight room. So it's like I was always committed to working hard, to to seeing a vision of something

and working towards it. You know, just a small example being the skinniest kid ever, and you know, being playfully made fun of for it or whatever, and then saying like, I'm going to do everything in my power to not be that anymore, to to work hard, to be consistent, to be disciplined, to persevere, to block out outside voices. All of these concepts that applied to other things then applied to my life and I could I could take

them with me. Um. And so the fuel from being bullied for being skinny and then getting in the weight room and changing that is now something you can use when in terms of diving into books. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean I had doubted my my smart or my intelligence in some sense because I didn't do as well in school. And you know, if you were an a student, you were smarter than the kid it was a be student, or at least that's how most people saw it. And I fell into that trap a little bit of times.

But because I knew it didn't feel right, I was like, why am I feeling this way? Why is myself seems so tied into this? And so it's like I wanted to I wanted to dive into things that I was interested in. I wanted to have my own sense of self not be a part of what it was for everyone else. Did the pressure of those situations, those expectations, being on that that path that everybody was expected to be on, challenge your mental health? Did you feel down? Depressed?

I mean so many your age talk about that. Yeah, I mean I definitely got down at times, because I mean I had had some conversations. There were some friends who would understand my perspective, but for the most part, I couldn't really have I didn't have a lot of conversations about how I didn't think grade should determine how I feel about myself or if I'm smart or not,

or predicate if I'll be successful or not. And you know, some people understood that, and some people said, but you know, you're gonna you're gonna go to college, right, You're gonna have to get a job one day, Like what do you what are you gonna do with your life? And it's like creating something people think is almost not doable, like it's impossible or it's only there for the select few. And you know, people don't think that the select few

is you. You You know, they think that it's meant for these geniuses or the Bill Gates or the Steve Jobs or that type of thing. Um, But no. I mean it definitely affected me, but I spent so much time with myself that it only affected me so so much. I mean I I always had like this somewhat of an inner dialogue that kind of let me know, like, it's okay, it's okay, You're not stupid. You know, just the fact that you're questioning your smarts and you're having

all these questions. To some degree, that awareness itself should let you know that you're not because most people wouldn't even sort of be thinking about those things. How concerned if it all were you about how this would look to other people, People would say, you know, I would give anything to be able to send my kid to a private school. Other kids your age would I would give any thing to be able to have access to that kind of education, not have to pay for it.

And I have to bury myself in student debt that would take years to pay off. That wasn't your situation, and yet you know you walked away from it. So having to defend that choice in that context, is that something you have to do or pay any attention to. I knew I was going to have certain conversations, especially within family and extended family, and just the people who were around me, and some people like express their their worries that I was doing what I was doing, which

they didn't really understand. And you know, I explained myself to some people that like, I have someone to play, like, I know what I'm doing. I'm not just dropping out and sitting on my couch and watching TV and scrolling on my phone. There's a lot that I want to do, do so much that I want to explore, and I'm gonna work really really hard. But to some people, it just wasn't even worth explaining. Eric is very drawn to

philosophy and psychology. He's built up a social media presence around those areas on Instagram and TikTok, But by far his most ambitious project is his company and Be Nutrition. It's in the early stages of its growth. The company makes energy bars, small batch, all natural, pretty tasty by the way. The brand motto feed your mind, fuel your body, free your spirit. I asked Eric what drew him to entrepreneurship, harving my own path, like living my own life. A

lot of it was self discovery. But then where do you go with self discovery? You don't discover yourself then go on a path that other people have taken that doesn't really make sense. So it's like self discovery to then carve my own path. And that is a scary thing, but that's what freedom is, the possibility to create and to construct the life that I want day in and day out. And you know, I was really into nutrition and fitness in those types of things, and I wanted

to start a company. I wanted to start a business. And that's also a thing that you can at least then say to people when you do drop out of college, like, oh, look, I had this company, because when people look at the the exceptions of people who do drop out of college is like, oh, but they started this company. Whatever, Well, you know what, I have a company now, you know, in like a jokingly way. But I wanted to be purposeful.

I wanted to be meaningful, and all the self discovery that I had done, all the learning that I did, I wanted to put that into my company. Ambi Nutrition. You bring a T shirt that said life as a simulation. I'm not going to go down the matrix rabbit hole and let you go off on that tangion because people would flee it. You've fallen after that, Yeah, you told me once that when you left the system of formal education, that's when you started to learn. What does that mean

to you? Absolutely well, because before, I mean I was learning a little bit before, but I could then go full in because I still had to do some of that work, right, There was still this to me, what was trivial work that I have to get done. I had to hand in my homework assignments. But once I left school, for example, I started reading a lot. I never liked reading. I don't think I ever finished a book in middle high school or anything like that. Mostly it was just looking up a summary of what that

book was. So if I got called on, maybe I could say something that looked like I read the book. But after that, you know, watching the video these videos and learning about certain ideas, I could then look up an idea and a book would come up. And then you know, I start reading these books, and I start hearing these names and these psychologists and these philosophers, and it's like all of these things that were already sort of within my mind and within these beings they then

had names. They then had ideas, Like I'd be speaking about a certain thing or expressing a certain thought, and then it's like, oh, this is an actual idea that people explore a lot, you know, like self awareness for example,

And so you know, I just started reading. I started looking into these people and what kind of lives they lived, and watching videos, like a lot of videos too, you know, because there's so much out there, and even podcasts and audio books and all of these things, and all this information was coming in, and you know, a lot of it actually made me feel a lot better because I was like, I'm not just this crazy kid who's going

down the path and no one's ever gone down. A lot of people have gotten on this path, but that's not talked about. You know, those books aren't being shown in school, and you know, maybe in college and a philosophy class, but then there's only a certain perspective of what that philosopher was saying. But when I take it and I can see it however I choose to to see it, I don't have to see it one dimensionally.

You know. Maybe a philosopher says one thing, but then I take it in another way, and then it becomes a part of all these perspectives that I'm trying to take in without solidifying an idea of what it is without being closed off to other interpretations. I do think that a lot of what college is is because it is a part of the the conventional route to lead you to a nine to five job, to live for the weekends, and so I mean, to some tree, it

just keeps the world. It keeps the world intact. And I don't necessarily think that colleges are set up for our best interest, if I'm being completely honest. Why not, because they don't take into account the individual. It's not subjective, it's it's it's objective. It's the complete opposite. It's more like you have to fit into this box. You have to follow this curriculum and live within these confines and these guidelines too do well so you can get to

a certain point. You need to build this resume so you can get this job. And I think it actually takes us away from ourselves, and it we end up building a character that is accepted by the world. We don't tell ourselves who we are, and then so the world does that. The world doesn't for us. And sure like we have somewhat of a say. But what I've spoken about before in one of my blog posts, how it's sort of like a chess game, like you can

only make moves within the rules of the game. Do you feel qualified to speak about college and the institution of having spent a semester there we qualified to speak? It's like I have an issue with that statement itself that people think that you have to be qualified to speak? Is that not free will? That I can just say what I want to say. Sure it may not be accepted by some people, but those are probably not the people that I'm going to be conversing with anyway, because

they're not open. And why enter a conversation if you're not open, because then you're not you're not willing to to learn. And I've never been about being qualified or credentials or I have this piece of paper, so now I'm able to speak on the subject and what I say should be accepted and should be looked at the truth. And yeah, that's just a way the people go about things in a way of life that I I think, if anything is is is harmful and destructive. Anything else

you want to say on this topic, we haven't covered. Um. I just one thing I would say is that going back to school is I think a lot of us get cut off from the child self from you know, when we were a kid, and when we were so curious and we did have so many questions, when we did challenge things, and when the world was so big, and I think over time things become more and more solidified, more and more concrete, And to get into a little

bit of psychology, it's like we become these these subconscious programs. We do things over and over and over again, and they become patternized, and we lose that free will, We lose that curiosity for life to pause to just look around because we're always moving. There's always the next thing. In college is part of that because college is one of those next things, and then college set you up for the next thing, which is a job, the next thing, having a family. And so I think a lot of

life is like a checklist for most people. And it's because it's socially accepted. People just sort of do it. And I think that but the best thing for a lot of people would be too to reconnect themselves with their childlike self, with the purity, with the cont bousness that makes us human beings. I told you my conversations with there, I could get a little bit edgy, but we both enjoy that. I asked him, how do you imagine your future to be? And he said, I have

no idea, and that's the beauty. He doesn't see himself ever returning to college or being employed in a nine to five job. He hopes eventually he can express his thoughts for a living, writing books and blogs, giving talks, maybe a podcast. For a sample of his ideas, you can go to at Infinite Seeking on TikTok and Instagram, and for info and his company A B Nutrition AMBI

Nutrition dot Com. I'm so grateful to Lanny Lazari and Eric Abrons for sharing their stories and their viewpoints the next episode other sides of the to go or not to Go conversation. Two guests that took the more conventional route. We've given the opportunity for college. They took it, but they also use their time in college in very creative and fulfilling ways. Grateful to my co executive producer Jennifer

den Syrup and adjacent Whitehelfer his Ederney Skills. Would love to have you give me feedback at Instagram at Chris Fowler Talk to Yourself