MICHAEL SYMON

hope you do too. We're recording this at cocktail hour where you are, so dinner is looming. You're sitting there in your kitchen, so the obvious question is what are you making for dinner tonight? You know what, It's funny. We were going to have some people over for dinner tonight and then we had a last minute change of plans. And I'm in Long Island, um, which I am most summer situations. So we're going to go there's a little shower house called boss Wicks. We're gonna go out for

dinner tonight. I'm probably gonna get some grilled bobster and I'll be very happy you made the same thing, Jedi maybe made reservations and I were going to eat at a bourbon distillery out here in Colorado. But I will in your honor order some barbecue or some smoked meat or something like that. I've felling you. I love it. Hey,

food was so important growing up in your house. Food in sports, and we'll get into both of them, but talk about just being a young kid when when great food was being prepared, whether it was the Greek side of the Sicilian side, you had it covered. And obviously that spoke to you at a young age. Unlike my my Irish English background, where we we didn't quite get

that adventurous in the kitchen. And my family, Chris, most of my friends are good amount of my president Irish, so needless to say, they ate at our house a lot. Not the kids. But you know, my my mother, I had a Sicilian mother and and food was just it was a big deal in our house. You know. She was to stay oh mom until I was in high school. Um, and she cooked every single meal. Her mom was a great cook. Actually, my Dance side of family two great cooks. Uh.

So we always we always ate at home. We gatingly went out at dinner. Um. And but like what even made me more kind of romantic by the whole thing is like there were certain things my mom would cook when it was when people were coming over or you know, was celebratory or a holiday and and you know, so those I remember like those of romans, and then I remembered like the happiness that have brought those people like when they came over. So it was it was a

big connect for me. And we always I mean we had dinner at the kitchen table seven days a week. So that was where for me as a kid, like all the lessons were learned. You know, I was in sports, my sister was in sports, but everything would get discussed at that table nightly. Um, you know, whether it was school or sports or what's going on in your life for you know. So that was it wasn't only like the where we ate, but it was it was also the landing spot of our family on a daily basis. Yeah,

that's awesome. I mean, your grandparents are important to you. Mine were very important to me, but food was not important to them. So they might go Swanson's Dinners, chicken pot pie, Saahly pound cake. I still loved them. My grandmother introduced me to sports. That's the reason I have the career I have. But food did not go hand in hand with sports as it did in your family. You were a family of athletes. I mean, I know your uncle was Pete Duranko. If you're an old time

Notre Dame fan, you know that name. I'm a Broncos fan. He was a legend with the Broncos. And get a bunch of football players and athletes in the family. So, uh, sports and food seems like they were kind of equally important. Maybe yeah, they were huge, you know, like I uh you My uncle Pete was obviously tremendous athlete, devils that The Ranco side of the family, that Eastern European side of the family was uh. I mean, there were just a lot of great athletes in that side of the family.

My god, my grandpa was the oldest of eight boys, um and he was a pipe fitter. You know, they were they He grew up in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, you know, Steel Town, but all eight boys terrific athletes. My grandfather was a scratch golfer, both taught U sself out of golf um and shot his age every year between when he was sixty five and nineties six, shot his age

at least once a year. UM. So if the athletic team was was pretty strong in my family, Michael, what did the example of your grandfather mean to you as a child. I mean, the lessons must have been too numerous to name, But what what do you remember most from from his example that you've lived with since then? Well, you know, he was he was a giant, you know, arguably the biggest influence on my life. You know, my father worked at for a voter company and worked midnights,

so my dad basically worked seven days most weeks. And I would spend weekends with my grandparents, um, with my dad's mom and dad um, and so I was with them almost as much as my parents when I was younger. And and like from the food, from the food side of things, my grandmother worked at Higbie's in downtown Cleveland. So close to Higbie's in downtown was the West Side Market.

So I would go with my grandparents on like Friday night, Saturday, uh, like early afternoon, we would go to the West Side Market. We'd buy all the food for dinner that night. Then we pick up my grandmother at Higbee's and then we drive home and they would start cooking. So from a food aspect um, it was. It was a tremendous influence. And then my my grandfather lived a hundred and three. He just passed away a couple of years ago, and he was healthy basically the whole time, of mind and body,

which was incredibly incredible. And like his line he's I used always say, Pep, what's your secrets? Like, always take the stairs? That was it. He goes elevators, escalator that always take this? Do you always take the stairs? Always take the stairs? So like you, I travel a lot and when I fly in the Vegas like and I gotta get up and it's like, you know, it's like that really long stairwell up to the terminal, and I like, no matter how much fun you about my shoulders, I'm like, God, damnit,

here we go. Time to take this. And I thought, you got some people stay in the thirty floor of the hotel. You're taking the stairs. Come on, there's a limit to Grandpa's message. I'm in a hotel, I take the elevator. I think there's few things in life more precious than the love of a grandmother. What about your grandmother that you remember most finely, you do you learn the most from Well, both of them were great, you know. Um my mother's um, my grandmother and my mom's side

was from sicily. Um. She was very tough, um, I mean loving but very strict, very tough, um but like the ultimate perfectionist um in insane cook. Uh but like when their house, I can't even explain you how clean their house was like it was like everything was in its place all the time. I mean it was insane. So like I think attention to detail like kind of things, I really that was from her for certain. Um. And my my dad's mom. My grandfather was the oldest of

eight boys, my grandmother was the youngest of twelve. So they came from like, you know, separate worlds in that sense. Um. But my my grandmother was always like just one of those people that was uh like incredibly kind and warm. Like I never heard her say a bad thing about like a single human. I I just never never crossed her lips. Like she just never had anything bad. She

could find the good in anything. She was the ultimate optimist. Um. And and so I think I really learned, you know, optimism and the glass is always you know, half full, not had half empty, uh from her. And also that side of the family, she was the Duranko. So the love of sports comes really from I mean she, my grandmother was the biggest die heard football fan you had ever. I mean it was insanity, and she could rattle off

every stat on every team like it was insane. And her sisters were like they were all like that, you know. So I learned a lot about sports. I mean I learned from my dad and my grandparents, But really the person that really taught me, like about like the first thing that I learned my dad. The first thing he always did. The first thing I learned how to read was the sports page, Like here's how you read the

sports page. And but the person that really taught me how to like follow stats and like adore the statistics of sports was my grandmother. I cannot believe we have that exactly in common. My parents went out into sports at all. We got dropped up in my grandparents house. My mom uh couldn't have cared less. But her mother sat in the backyard in a folding chair with the transistor radio and a baseball scorebook and scored every single

Cubs games. So I I learned to embrace sports, stats and sports and that's why I wanted to do this for a living. Was listening to games on the radio with my grandmother. So I will never forget that that gift that she gave me, the gift of sports fandom. Hey, football and food seem to go together, Michael, you're a big fan of both. You're uniquely qualified to talk about it. But but why is that? And what we're football Saturdays and Sundays like for you growing up? And what are

they like now? Um? You know is a cute We're a very kind of a slightly divided family, um in sports because I had you know, my uncle's played for Notre Dame and so like half family was a Notre Dame family and half the family was Ohio State family. Um. And then, like it took me a long time I think to kind of pick aside. I just you know, when I was younger and then even in high school, cheered for both teams um as. And then as I got older, I got more and more buck guy, I

favored the Buckeyes more and more. Um. But you know, there was a moment where I thought I was like I thought about I wanted to go to Notre Dame to wrestle, not to play football. But uh, you know so I I really was in love with the whole Notre Dame a lord for a long time. But but I'm a hardcore buck I fan now. And then the food came in, Like me would we usually my parents house is usually where we watched all the sports, so it was there was always getting cooked. We were always

around the table. And then as I got older and got season tickets and things of that to the Browns games, Like you know, tailgating was always a huge thing for us at the games. Well, I have ex erience to Michael simon cooking in regard to football and that backdrop. Uh and I have to tell you that you served up some great food in Tallahassee, Florida. But kind of a cross promotion when you were co hosted the chew

we were doing game Day. You were there and and smeat was coming off the grill was coming up to the set. But all of it, all of it was going to Desmond Howard from Cleveland kirk Herb Street X Ohio state quarterback. I think I had to say, uh, you know, Michael could yeah, you know when when you get a chance, you know, when you when you when you're done serve in the Ohio Superstars, Can I just get a little play of something over here? Eventually got

around to it. But I haven't forgotten that, I meanfessible, I mean I I mean I don't remember that is like like desn't I graduated from high school at the same time, you know, so like I've known that, Like he played football. I like say bad words to high school that I went to. In high school my senior there was our tenth straight national title and seventeenth straight state title. So it was the predominant wrestling program in

the country. And we had a very good football team too, as the Desmond But we used to beat Saint Joe's my senior year when they had des An Gerbach. You know. So, I mean Desmond was in high school and running back, which I know you know all this, you know, but he was an elite running back and then when he

went to Michigan, it was when he became the receiver. Um. So you know, we had a running back at our school named Chris Williams, who was probably the best running back in the state of Ohio at the time, followed by Desmond, so there's always a lot of competition between those two. And then at college des went to to receiver obviously at Michigan and did the Heisman pose against Ohio State. I don't even need to get in all of that, you know. So he's been uh, you know

when we were in high school. My high school got to break his heart a lot. Once he went to college, he just dripped my heart out, like, well, I want to talk about your sports background. You mentioned Sant Edwards in Cleveland Wrestling Dynasty. To say the least, you were a wrestour. I know you played a lot of sports, but wrestling seemed to connect with you. There's a dude in front of you, go attack him and take him down, and that seemed to make sense to to a young

Michael Simon. I did a show called Scholastic Sports America. We went to St Edge and profiled that wrestling program, you know, mid eight, right around when you were there. I don't know if we crossed paths or if you were on that team, but we covered that team and if you you got a chance to wrestle for them, you were legit. And I know you thought that maybe that was gonna be your path to college and who knows where before kind of food took over. But that

wrestling career and it's it's pretty grizzly. Describe it as much as you want to about what sort of detoured that when I wrestled with saying as our coach was a name named a gentleman by the name of Howard Ferguson who had a tremendous influence on my life. He passed away two years after and graduated, and he also wrote a book called The Edge, which you know, a lot of young athletes. He put together a book called The Edge, which a lot of young athletes looked at

it that time. He was a tremendous influence on my and um, you know, basically, if you went to St. Adds, you got a full ride to college. I mean that's just if if you were good enough to make the Adds team, you you went to college for free. That was basically how it worked. And I was a good wrestler. You know, Um my junior year in a rustle off in the room, Um, I posted out on a cradle and my my arm just snapped. So like the basically what Joe Tiesman to do his leg. I did to

my arm. That's the easiest way, man. That's so that's called a compound fracture. That means bone through skin, right, so like if you form, there's like a little zipper there still, but you have the two bones coming out. The one compounded fracture that was actually been good break. The other break one chattered and I dislocated my elbow all in like a fell swoop. So and it was in a match. Obviously, the match stopped it from In the hospital, I had a got I got put on

a plate and fourteen screws in my arm. So you know, I've been wrestling since I've been six, you know, so it was just a way of life for me. And and the guy that did my surgery was a very famous surgeon who used to do all the Browns at the time. And you know, he said, you're probably the chances of you wrestling again in high school are very rare. It's about halfway through my junior year. Now. Again, my

dad was I come from a sports family. My father worked at Ford, the tough blue collar guy, as was my grandfather and stuff. So I'm like, well, you know, so I had the cast on for about six months and I get the cast off, and you know, I started. I was like that it doesn't you know. I started lifting again lightly and working out, and I ran when I had the cast, I don't all that kind of stuff, and and I said that it feels pretty good, you know, and he goes, well, you know, start practicing a little

bit with some of your buddies. See how it feels, you know. Don't tell your mother. I'm I'm I'm practicing with some of my buddies. About two months before the season starts, and I wake up one morning and and my dad were midnight. So typically when I was going to school in the morning, he was getting home from work for the most part, you know, so I'd like say hi to him. I go to school, you know. He then he would sleep. So I wait, I come downstairs.

I'm like, damn, my arm feels really weird. He goes, let me look at it. I didn't really look at it. I was still kind of like half away, and my form like, instead of being this thing, was like this thing. And he's like, oh, shoot, uh, you know, like I'm gonna pick you up after school before I go to work. We'll go see Bell who was the doctor. We'll see. So I had broken the plate in the wow, so they had to go in rebreak a researchly replayed, and then I was in a cast for a year and

six months. So basically over the whole tenor of the thing, I was in a cast for about two years. Um, And you know, we're a middle class family. My sister was an elite gymnast, you know, an Olympic hopeful gymnast. And I was a wrestler, you know. My my dad I thought we'd both get full rise to college. And um, so I'm like, well, I gotta I gotta get a job. So I started working in restaurants. My buddy's dad on

a restaurant. I started working in restaurants when I was like sixteen, um, sixteen, seventeen, and just fell in love with the business. Now was before Food Network and all that kind of stuff. And I wasn't a great student. You know, Um, do you re select on that though? I mean, listen, I've talked to so many athletes whose careers have ended out on their terms and it's a heartbreak, I mean identity. And then but then if you reflect back, now that the way the universe kind of serves up

these plot twists. Who knows if you're sitting there where you are now, had you gone to college interrestling scholarship. When I told my father wanted to go to culinary school, He's like, no, no, your grandfather was a tradesman. You know, Like you're not, You're You're you're going to get an education, you know. So um. I went to Cleveland State for a semester and I got a point to point Lutarski almost of Lutarski GP, and I remember him going like, how did you get a point to? And like I

just didn't want to be there. At the end of the day, I'm like, I got a point too because I literally didn't go to a single class. I never attended a single class, and I got that's how I get a point to in college. It's it's it's not easy to do. But if you never go to a single class, I mean, but I want I want to go back to that decision because one of my favorite topics is young people trying to forge their own path

and listen to their gut in their heart. Because even though people who love you and who have more wisdom than you give you advice, it doesn't necessarily mean that they know what is best for you and your inner voice told you something else, and and you follow that direction to see I had. I think it's powerful because so many young people struggle with that. You know, I was very fortunately I flunked out of college. Obviously, I

was still working in restaurants. I still loved it. And you know, my dad is like he shrunk a little now, but he was like six four and my mother's about four eleven. But my mother's and if you come from like that family, you understand it a little bit. So everyone no one's afraid of my dad really, and everyone's toetrified up my mom. You know, she wielded the hammer, so she had had enough and she's like he's going

to culinaries. Listen with the discussions over like it was like he's and you know, and I went to see I A and I graduated top of my class and you know, and like it just worked in for my brain, like I'm a d D. So the restaurant business, I think that there's probably a lot of chefs. If you did a you know, a test, like chefs that have attention deficit, I'll bet you be like you threw that out there casually, top of your class. C I. A is not the central ATTENTIONCE agent if you don't know,

it killing every intitude of America. And it's kind of like the Oxford or the Harvard for cooking, and and to go in there after you struggle in college and do that well. I mean, first of all, it must have been thrilling to connect with something that you found. I don't know if it was easy, but it seemed much more natural to and then tell me what that was like when that that that light bulb came on you said, this is for me, I got a text. It was easy for me. It was the first time

I ever went to school. Of like wrestling was easy for me, sports were easy for me. School was not easy for me. My sister was a graduate, like a four four, you know, like school was easy for her. It was not easy for me. I hated it. I didn't dwell on it, and I just didn't like it, you know, quite frankly. I like the social aspect of it, but I didn't like the I didn't love going to school.

And I went to culinary school and I immediately loved it, like just loved it and everything made sense, Everything clicked. You know, it just was it was easy for me. And and you know mainly because like sports that I did okay, and it just it was enjoyable. Like I loved doing it. You know. It's it's like television. I love doing it and I never feel like I can go over work ever, you know, so like when I'm at the restaurants or I'm on TV, it just doesn't

feel like work to me. That's beautiful. That that is That's the secret to happiness, right then. You know, I love what you do, and I think that what's also impressed me about you is you've pivoted and you've reinvented and reinventioned. Pivoting is one of my favorite topics. Did a Whole Pot episode our mutual friend Clinton Kelly, your former co host on The Chew, and Eddie George, a Buckeye both told their stories about how they dramatically pivoted in life and found a new passion. And you did

that with TV. Yeah, you know, like still chefs still have the restaurants, still all that, but it TV, like cooking came became relatively natural to me, like you know, in in um in ninety eight, I want an award from Food and Wine magazine where every year they named the top best young chefs in America. So that's when I was young and I won that award. So they had me Food Network had just started in they had me out as a guest of the show called Sara Malton.

You know, I had a blast that The ratings were I guess good and not a lot of people watching the number back then, and um, then I was on again and again and again and again. And then that same year they asked me to host a show called The Melting Pot and I did that for two hundred episodes and um, and then it just just continued since then. And you know, um, you know it's for me. It's funny.

It's like I often think about like pivotal moments in my life and and like and two Like you would say, oh, well, breaking your arm got you into cooking, that was like

the aha moment. But really I think what changed a lot for me is when I broke my arm and Ford allowed me to coach and I coached the freshman and I also coached uh two other teams the year after that that we're you know, like graders and and teaching and and working with these kids, and like getting them to a certain level was like really fulfilling for me.

And what I quickly learned as I you know, I went from a you know, a line cook to a sous chef to an executive chef to an owner is to to have a successful restaurant, it's you have to be able to cook, obviously, but you have to be able to teach. Um. And so that just clicked in my brain. And then when I'm on television, like the one thing that I pride myself in the most is, you know, most people that watch our shows, whether it's Simon's Dinners were Doing in Our Backyard or the new

show I'm Doing Barbecue USA. Um, Like when I when you like read whatever on social like they always say I learned so much from his shows. And that makes me so happy because you know, obviously, at the end of the day, we need to entertain, Like it's our

job to entertain the people watching. But if if I could give them a skill, a life skill, or they could learn like one thing two things, uh, during one of those shows, Like that's when I feel like as a chef or a person or a teacher or a TV personality, Like that's what I feel like for me personally, I've succeeded. Yeah, that's a wonderful side of it. Another side of it is the competitive side. And we talked about how ultra competitive you are. So you go on

Iron Chef, which is the g cooking competition show. So many sprang from that, but it was also like it was kind of like the m M A of cooking. You guys were built up like like athletes. You had these big entrances. You came out and then it was like, I mean, killer, be killed, you're making food. But something about that competitive part just connected. But you when you kicked as on the show, you almost never lost those head to head battles. I mean, what was it about

that that if? So, they did a Next Iron Chief Like they did a first run of Iron Chefs where they had three Iron Chefs and then they decided they needed to add you know, Aron chefs, so they the next season the first season they did the Next Iron Chef and they were a ton of us competing for the spot. Like time elite chefs around America. I've won that and I became an Iron Chef and um, but for me, like it got me right back into wrestling mode.

I'm like, let's go. Like when when Iron Chef was started, like it was like I'd look over be versus them, let's go. But that's not the same thing as go as trying to, you know, break a guy down and pan him. I mean, how is working with food and

how is it the same thing? Because it's like, like it's interesting, Like Iron Chef is interesting in the sense where a lot of the people were cooking against people that we were friends with them, we know, one in the business forever, and they would come on that show and they wanted to kill you, like they knew that if they could beat one of us, it was a

big feather in their cap, you know. So you know, I'm pretty like you know, people that know me, like, you know, I like that fun, I like them laugh like them the time. I like, you know, but I'm also very competitive, Like that's the other side of it. So like the first couple after the first couple of years I did Iron Chef, Like I remember when I went from Iron Chef to The Chew, Like when people started watching The Chewo, They're like, oh, he's really nice.

We never knew he was really nice, like because I was just like we're going. But when you say kill, I mean, look, what what do you You can't like reach over and dump a bucket, assault in their food, you try to get in their head? Are you trying? Does the trash talk mental combat work and that kind of a thing is some trash talk, you know, but there's also like, you know, one thing about the culinary

world is it's big, but it's very small. So when you're going against somebody, you know what they're capable of. You know, like this ingredient is going to favor them. You know, you know all those things. So you just have to bring You have to bring your a game for a straight hour and you can't pick up. So like if I like over there like trying to take the person down, know, but like I do know that for an hour, I need to be perfect, you know, and so that it becomes more of a competition with

myself at that point. Um, but I know if I could challenge myself enough, then I'm gonna win, you know. And and not that I understand more when you were youre ultru competitive against your own standard, which I talked about. That makes sense to me more than trying to like beat the ship out of the guy cooking food next to you. I know, that's the point of a competition show, Like I just want to win. Like so, like it's lot when you lost the rare loss where you gutted?

Were you devastated? I you know, I'm um, as my friends like to tell me, they're like, you lose with such grace, but man, when you win, you are the So I was like, and I mean it was kind of like, you know, wrestling in that really elite program for being involved with that on the program for such a long time at St. Edwards. If you lost and you didn't lose, you know, graciously, Ford would have ripped

our hearts out. I mean, like you lost, you one up, you shook the person's hand, you shook the coach's hand. You know, if you want to be upset, you do it off the map, like you need to carry yourself a certain way. So um, you know that has stuck

with me most of my life. But I do Like yesterday, I uh, playing eye golfed and we get to the eighteenth hole and we pay on Birdie's and you know we played we played like front back total with automatic presses, but we also pay on birdie's and sandies, So there's like, so I down, he's got a birdie. I don't have a birdie on the front night we only can play nine. Um, he's got a birdie. I don't have a birdie on

the front nine. And we're even on the match. Um, so you know, we get to the last hole two part five, I birdie, I whin whole, I buried the whole, and I get a sandy, so that by the time it was over, I was And he's everybody as competitive as me. And we get off the thing and he just looks at me, and I'm like, I just felt like this three bing three point all three point. You're like a lot of people. I know you're you're a good loser, but you're a bad winner. But I love

I love the power of sports. You've referenced the influence of your coach a few times already and the lessons I it's a powerful thing that the people that haven't been involved in sports don't fully understand. But I can tell when you keep talking about your wrestling coach and then the number of ways that he influenced you and the lessons you took from him that you bring back and all kinds of things, whether it's cooking, I'm sure

in the business world and anything else. So um that that's very cool for you to express that all all the meals you've created, sir, whether it's on a competition show or just for a couple of guests, is there one that stands out where you go, Everything was per picked, nothing could have been improved upon, nothing could be better, and that you're most proud of. Yeah, one dish or

one meal competition. It was so we used to do these holiday battles, um iron chef Hollidy battles were it was like iron chefs or iron chefs, and Bobby and I would never really compete against each other because of our friendship. We just didn't, you know, we compete enough like in Gulf and everything else. So we're like, we weren't going to do it on TV. So we him

and I were always partners. It was always Bobby and I versus whoever, and we were going against Alex Guana Shelley and m Jefferies carrying and it was a Thanksgiving battle and the uh I made so so my Italian herritage that you know, a dish that I grew up with this porquetta where you take the you know, the belly of the pork and you roll it and cook

it very slow and crystal skin. And and so Bobby and I would when we would do any of these things together, we look at the altar, you know, and we'd like grab ingredients and you'd be like, what do you want? What do you want? What do you like? Like we would just work what we're gonna make, and I'm like, I'll take the turkey and two sides like, Okay, I got this, and I I'm I worked for a butcher for a long time, so I'm very good at

butchering me. So I like broke down the whole turkey and I rolled it into itself and made a poor quetta out of turkey and we called it a torquetta and um, and it was lights out and like it haunts Alex Wanna Shelley like like if someone brings up like anything on uh, you know, your worst moment on Iron Ship, It'll just say, like fucking turkatta any more, because that's it. And so, because we're also competitive with each other, that one like really sticks in my mind,

um quite a bit. Uh. And so I was, what about the flip side. Man, they're not all amazing successes. I mean, is there anything you cooked where you tasted it afterwards? I don't care if it's on a cooking show or at home. And just said, wait a minute, this is awful, Like there's no way that a dude went to ci A top of class and one James Beard and all these other awards could possibly have made this and it just goes right in the trash can.

So well, it didn't go in the trash can because I was so like certain in my mind that the dish would work that I just I like forced the issue a little bit. So we were opening our first restaurant, Lola in and you know, Liz designs the restaurant, runs the front of the house, does the beverage programs, and

you know I do the food. So this is so and so she's like, you know, I had run to that point very Italian or Mediterranean based restaurants prior to opening Lola, And she's like, what are you gonna do? And We're gonna do Italian Like we were talking about it like now I'm like, you know, there's just a lot of Italian here in the city and like, I want to do something different and I'm gonna do Midwestern food And she's like, what does what does that? What does that even mean? I'm like, I'm not a d

here yet, but just be a second. So, you know, at the time, in my mind, would have meant was like I was gonna work with farmers within the area. This is before farming table was like a thing so much so we're gonna work with local farmers and we're gonna um enhanced dishes that like kind of made Cleveland the food talent that it is, but we're gonna cheff

them up for you know. So like we did um Like probably the most the dish that kind of got the most pressed for me as a chef was we made beef cheek, but so we made bogie dough brave beef cheeks filled it, you know with wild mushrooms and truffle and all that stuff. So that was like my breakout dish. So for every hit like a beef cheek parokee,

there's gonna be you know. So you know, I fought him Midwest I called pot pie like pop pie is you know what everybody was, But like, we can't, we can't put a chicken pot pie on the menu at this fine dining restaurant. So I said, I'm gonna make you know. So then I worked for French chefs a lot young that got new attenant fro whatever. So you know, I was thinking of Escargo on CRUs you know, Escargo Puffey Street. So I was like, I'm gonna make an

escargo pot pie. And I made it. And like I remember, like like we used to do this thing where we would introduce a new dish. All the servers would come around and would taste the dish. I explain it to them, here's the ingredientsers that we made it. So they were put to go to the table and so put up dish and taste it. And there's nothing, no like, no reaction, nothing like. So the cooks and chefs who had worked

for me for a while at that time. It came from the other restaurant with me and I'm like, you guys, none of the surfers are reacting to the dish. They say nothing. So my wife is always trutally honest with me, which is a good thing, you know. I'm like, Liz, serfers haven't responded to the dish, you know, the cooks don't seem excited about the dish. I'm like, I like the dish. She's like, it's an awful dish. It's not working. It's I'm like, I'm gonna put a couple of weeks

on and I put it on the menu. So so sure enough I did that and it was an immense failure.

It was like it was my first lesson in the cooking world a little bit, like you know, just because you're good at your craft and you know how like you can't will something to taste good, like you can't like like it's gonna work, you know, but like mony when chefs they all have like that one dish, you know, that one dish where it's like in your mind it's part of the like the curses being creative, Like you know, there's there's chefs that just say, like I may um

passa puntanesca and marinara and like very classic dishes when you're just trying to um master a classic, which is great, and there's amazing chefs in death very well, like I feel like a very good technique, but I also have this kind of creative side of me. And when you're creative, there there is the the risk of the disaster. Well, I'm sure that the dishes are much better in the mind than in the mouth. That that that that's gonna happen, And not every creative type pitsa home run every time

I get it. Hey, you know, for years people said, hey, you don't want to know what goes on back in the kitchen. Just go to a restaurant, enjoy the food, but you don't want to know what's going on back there. Then there were books Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential. There's a TV show right now called The Bear Said in a sandwich shop in Chicago. Some people may have seen that, but there's been other examples to where the curtain gets ripped

back and it looks like chaos. My brother Drew was a chef at some nice places, and he used to tell me stories about the working conditions, just how stressful and how demanding and how tough and how hot and gnarly you can get back there. I mean, I'm sure that's not all the time. But what what story do you have that that says, you know, that symbolizes that, Yeah, you know what it's it's it's a tough job. There's no other way like unfortunately what's happened a little bit.

The great thing about TV is it's it's made a profession that I have a lot of love for. People were a little bit more aware of it now than they were when I got in the business, you know,

thirty plus years ago. The the hard thing about it is it's also been glamorized a little bit where people don't always necessarily they're like, you know, they watched Food Network and these cookie shows and stuff like that, and they're like, oh my gosh, I want to be a chef, and they you know, they go to school and then they get in that restaurant environment, which you know, like, look, I worked for yellows and screamers and crazy people, and

I didn't want to be that way. So you know, I was a little bit crazier when I think when I was young. And then like as I'm mature as a person and as a chef, and the conference grows and all those things, like rarely ever ever ever raised

my voice in the kitchen. Um, so like I tried to control the stress that way, but it's still stressful, you know, and and I mean, you know, you think of it like it like a little we had twenty menu items, had ten starters and ten countries, and we had not counting pastry, which was six people on on the main line that we're uh, twelve cooks. So basically, you know, every cook is responsible for like a dish or two couple of dishes, and you know through the course of the night. You know you do you do

three people through the course of a night. So you know every cook is putting up like a couple of hundred plates. And I know customers never think of this. Like back when we open the first restaurant, I'm the man you just said no special orders, don't care. I wrote it exactly like that, like I don't care. Um, I'm not like that anymore. Dipping in a little bit.

But but like what a lot of customers don't understand is like you have this person cooking and you get in a rhythm, and let's just say it's the beef cheap paroge. Like the pickup on a beef cheap paroge is you know, you boil them, you put them in brown butter, you caramelize the mushrooms with some fresh herbs and thyme, and you lay that down on the plate. Was a little bit of a reduction sauce um and then to share the truff. So you're in the process of making two a night and all of a sudden,

like random wators come in no time. No must know this, no that sub this over here. I want this on that, you know, and it's hard to get out there. It would be like in the middle of calling a college football game someone said, you know what, we're playing baseball now, please one support at a time, man, one support at a time. And there is the customers always right, but but it sometimes creates a lot of stress on on

a a kitchen more than you know. But you want to make the customer happy like that the role that we kind of live with now. It's like I'll do anything it takes to make the customer happy unless making that one customer happy makes twenty customers suffer. Like that's how I kind of look at it. But um, yeah, it's a tough business. You have to love it. Like there's no if I just start all over again, I do it. I get right, I jump right back into the business, like I adore the business and and I

think most people that do it professionally really do. And I also think some of the stuff that you see on television is like when when Tony used to talk about you know, like kitchen confidentials. You know, he was writing about kitchens in the eighties and stuff like that. We're rough back then. I mean, those are the kittens I worked in. They were rough, but they're not quite like that anymoreren um, you know. And then the other

stuff with TV, like I really enjoyed Bear. I think it's a fun show and like, you know, the energy of it, but a lot of that is hyped up for for it's not fun. It makes you anxious you're sitting there watching you Okay, this is well acted, well written, but I mean I'm so anxious watching it. How do these people like you know, then they go home when they they eat the crappiest food. I don't know if that's true. If yes, you're you're around fine food, so

much goes into every aspect of food. When you get hungry and you're by yourself, you know, are you just making peanut brown jelly sandwich or whatever? You we great food like basically every day, but so we're not adverse to like going home at two in the morning after you just worked a fifteen hour day on the line and like busted out like a package of romen with some peanut butter in it. Like I speaking of unconventional choices.

One of the pivotal points in Michael's career was in the mid nineties when brilliant chef Thomas Keller offered an opportunity to join the opening team and what became the legendary French Laundry in Napa. He chose to stay in his hometown and work with Liz to open Lola, which became their breakthrough a restaurant and at Cleveland Landmark. So Michael followed his heart and his gut. You know, So I I didn't take the job, and I didn't take the opportunity, I would say, and so you know, I

don't even regrets. Thomas and I've been very good friends for a long time. Now we're in a book together called Solo Chef, and um it like I think about it a lot, and I think not a lot, but like a long time ago, I used to think about a lot. And you know, if I went and I worked for Thomas, you know, Thomas, such a is such a force. I believe in my heart, and I could be wrong that I probably would have cooked a lot

like Thomas. You know, I like I would have. You know, you worked for someone, they mentor you, they they mold you, and and so there's gonna be a lot of that in your food dna um where you know, I kind of worked for several different people and saw different things and and then I just kind of, you know, I've learned a little bit on my own and it allowed me. I feel that it allowed me to be more expressive as a chef maybe um going the route that I did.

And obviously it worked. So it Uh, Thomas certainly didn't miss me and just fine. Yeah, without Simon they do, that place just flopped. Man, It's a shame I never get out the ground, you know. Um, But you know it worked very well for for me as as a chef to um. So it was it, uh, but you know it was it was at the time. It was you know again, Thomas wasn't Thomas chef. French Laundry was just opening. I mean, the chef role moved him very well,

but the French Laundery cookbook wasn't out. But like I remember like eating at Raquel when he was the chef there, when I was like a young cook in New York and food was just so perfect, you know, and I'm like, man, what am I doing? Like this is a chance of a lifetime to work with this guy, like he's He's in the chef community. Even before French Landy, everybody knew how particulous and spectacular he was as a chef. So

it was it was a tough decision, it was. It was a tough decision, not one that I regret, but a very tough at the time. Like you said, it worked out for a ball. I have in my hand a copy of your latest book, Fix It with Food. This is the second one, Every Meal Easy. We ordered this book. Amazon told us the other day they had delivered it. The box didn't show up. We thought I'd

have been stolen. They left it outside on on a road in a garage, and we thought, I wonder what the person who grabbed this Amazon box and open it up and found um. Michael Simon's book, along with the book The Making of the Godfather, Leave the Gun, Take

the Cannonality is also a very good book. I don't know if you would have been disappointed or thrilled to get your book, but we're happy to have it because it talks a lot about something that's important to a a lot of people, which is, although they love food and food is sustenance, food can also make people uncomfortable. They

can create inflammation. Um. Jennifer struggles with that. So we're eager to dive in and see what you've got to say about foods and and how to alleviate some of the problems because you suffer from a couple of different autoimmune diseases and you react to food badly at times too. Right, Yeah, I have are a and I have just good lucas um and you know, and my body is a little beat up from all the years of wrestling, to be quite honest. You know that the tour knees and broken

arms and all that stuff that went with that. So um, so inflammation is a problem with me. And I just didn't want to you know, when I was younger, I just kind of pushed through it and whatever. I'm sore, a big deal. I can store my whole life. So but I'm just like, this is so stupid. I don't want to take a pill for it. I want to try to, like, come on, chef, like, let me see if I can figure out you know how to reduce inflammation with my diet. And you know the old saying

you are what you eat. It's true, you know, and now a big part of me knows it. Also as a chef, I gotta be able to taste and eat everything. So if I go, if I adjust my lifestyle and the way that I eat to help inflammation, I also have to know going into that that this isn't a perfect world for me. Like like, for instance, my triggers are sugar and dairy. Well, you know, if I'm at the restaurant someone makes a butter cream sauce, I have to taste that, you know. Or if my pacery chef

makes a great dessert, I'm gonna taste them. Now. The great thing about once you learn your triggers, it's kind of like you have one bourbon, you find the next day you have four. You're hungover, but sometimes you still left four. And like that with me with the food, you know, I was able to identify my triggers. I teach people how to do it um in the book and then give them recipes to cook around their triggers. UM. And I'm very clear, like what this isn't a perfect world?

I'm not. I hate the word diet. I can't stand it. I think it's like a set up for failure. Um. But here's the way to eat smart. Identify what your problems are, keep them out of your diet as much as you can, and ultimately you'll feel lot better Like I feel great, Like you know. I there's days around a little more emky than others, But for the most part, I've learned how to to this point in my life

control the inflammation very well. And it works for people as well, whether it is dairy or sugar or something. You think that just by a little investigation and then some diligence and making some sacrifices, they can turn around health.

That is, it's food related. You know what what I found when we I was doing all the research for the book and talking to other people with inflammation issues and having them kind of play around with these diets for me, because everyone's triggers were a little bit different. Like you know, I have a friend that has are a their triggers slower. You know, flower doesn't affect me. I have another friend UM with lupus, not discord with you know, regular lupas, and UM meat was their trigger.

You know, so everybody's bodies is a little bit different. And so we we through the book, we take you through the little elimination period and then you start introducing foods back in. Just see what the triggers are. You're obviously a positive guy. We've had fun. I do want to ask one thing just from a from a chef's perspective and someone who has made their life and food.

I mean, for me, it's deflating how little emphasis in this country is placed on good eating and wellness and health, and how little kids are taught about food and how to eat well, and and how much of our food is processed and so far from the farm before it gets to the table. And that's different from a lot of places in the world. You know, as an American chef, does it get you down? Do you see how is there a pathway to a to a healthier way of

eating in this country? It's a disaster, and you know it's it's I mean, it's just at the end of the day, it's a disaster. The problem is current. I mean, there's a lot of problems with the system. But you know, if you the the everyone wants everything bigger, faster, cheaper. And in order to do a lot of that, people pump things with growth hormones, use pestle sides, they do all these things that get the product to the people, um, in a more inexpensive manner. And um, you know, I

don't I don't have the answer. I wish I did. Uh, you know, like my oh, I'm a chef. Answer would be like, like, we should be helping the farmers that are doing things the right way so then they're able to produce food in a manner that's a little bit more inexpensive, so everybody could get the benefits of these food because the people that unfortunately have the worst diets are the people that are struggling the most financially, and they don't have a choice. You know, Like, look, you

and I are fortunate. We could go to the grocery store and we could say, give me the organic produce or the grass fed beef, and you know, this is what I want to eat. Um. But there's a lot of people that just in a position to do that, and and there's a lot of waste in America too. It's like, because we want everything to look a certain way or be a certain way. It's like the amount of produce and and things like that to get thrown out our grocery stores every day would just make your

mind melt, you know. And and and there's just I'm like, why why can't we give these two two food pantries? Oh they can't take a tomato with a crack in it, or they can't you know. So when people go to a grocery store and they root through forty tomatoes to find the one that they want and they crack six of them out along the way, those get thrown away, you know, And and and it's just it's horrible. So I mean, you know, we we try to do a lot with I work with some schools in Cleveland, Ohion,

and you know, hopefully I can get it bigger. Like I feel like if we could do our best, defeed kids great right now and and it could move in that direction. It's like, you know, the some of the inner city parts of Cleveland has these food deserts, and um one of the schools that we worked with, we told everybody, like, draw draw your neighborhood for us, you know,

and we're trying to learn more about the students. And they drew them and and you know, put where the grocery stores to gas station, So all of the grocery stores was the gas station. You know, That's that's where they were getting there. These these kids were getting their food for the day at the gas station, you know. So, um, you know, if we could fix some of those issues, I think that will help a lot. But it's it's

an utpill battle. And then you go like, you know, I'm lucky enough to travel, you know, you go to some of these other countries, and you know, we're we're the smartest, most successful country in the world, but yet our food programs are probably worst, the private worst. I'm gonna wrap it up, but we're a little more upide here. What is it about food that draws people together? I mean, I know sports bring people together, Music brings people together.

They don't have to speak the same language, and that's on a very basic human level. But it seems like nothing brings people together and binds them and builds relationships and strengthens bonds better than food. Obviously, we've been eating communally as a species ever since we were walking up right, That might have something to do with it. But your experiencing in the industry and making great food and and

and making people feel good around the food. What what is it about that about this that makes you sort of proud to be part of that industry? You know. I think a lot of it is similar to sports and um music in the sense I think food has the ability to create very specific memories in people's minds, um and like anything that has the ability to do that and bring someone to back to a place or create a new place for them, I feel is incredibly powerful.

Like you know, right when we the podcast, I talked about like when I smelled certain things that my mom made, I knew what was coming next, you know, And even as an adult, like when I make my mom's lasagna, I'm all of a sudden, I just like if I'm in a shitty mood, I make my mom's design it. You know, it's not as Bitnister's, but just at the house smells that way for a couple hours puts me in a great mood. And I think food has the ability to do that as the ability to transport you

back to a place or create a new place. Um. You know, it's it's and I think that's just what does it. I think it generally makes people happy in that stuff, and so many people in the industry are are generous soul as Michael. The last thing I want to ask you about is is chefs instincts to help

people and do good. There's so many examples of philanthropy through cooking and chefs and people like you have used your platform and your name to help people, whether it's through the pandemic or just through you know, tough times. And what is it about people in your industry who who feel compelled to just sort of get back and

do good. Yeah, I don't know, Like I think what it is is it's really helped the foundation of the industry are are I think the base of the reason most people are in the industry industry is they're they're naturally giving souls that want to nourish people, you know. I think that that's like the core of most chefs,

especially um you know. And so when there's a time and need, I think more like my guests would be more than any industry in the world when when things get bad, the first industry to jump in and try to help is the rest of industry, um, you know. So it's it's just it's how it works where that's

how we're wired, you know. I think when when you're you know, like you were saying earlier, Oh, it's the stories about how tough it is in the kitchen, the the work is really difficult, but it also forms this tremendous bond um with these teams of people, and and you with that bond you take care of everybody around from win those kitchens, and I think it just it goes beyond that. Then then it goes beyond that. And um, you know, I mean, like, look look at what JS

Andrew's doing. He's doing things in the world that no one has been able to do until him, not no one, I mean, And and it's truly it just stems from here's the guy who I mean is one of the greatest chefs in the world, but also more than that, has a heart that is like could fill a hundred rooms, you know, and he just wants to take care of people. And he doesn't care, he doesn't care what it takes. He just wants to do the right thing all the time and take care of people. And um, I mean,

he's the extreme example of that. But I think most chefs are. There's more chefs like Jose than chefs that are not great place to leave it. Speaking of generosity, really grateful for your time. Um, someday I'm gonna crash one of your your football parties there and and experience your food to try to make up for the fact that I was last served in college game day. But I'll bring I'll bring what I know best. I'll bring the bourbon in, the tequila and the beer and you

can take care of the rest. Is that a deal? You guys are always welcome to the house for Sunday supper, so I know your busiest on Saturdays. Sundays might be a little bit hard, but you know, Clinton, Dave, we don't even have to come. You're always welcome Now. Sundays, I'm light open, brothers. Saturdays are busy. Sundays I'm exhausted but hungry. You can look for Michael on the Food Network hosting B b Q USA and Simon's Inners, where

he cooks in his stunning back your heart. My thanks to Michael and a co executive producer Jennifer Dempster for her great work in this episode, and editor Jason white Kell. I'll talk to you soon with more of season five of Fowler. Who You Got