LAUGHTER'S POWER

How do we need that now? Laughter is the topic for my two guests, both extremely smart, both inspiring for different reasons. Both former college football players. Gary Goldman X Boston College Eagle, creates laughter for a living. So what's

what's funny? What's funny to me is that you remember your first laugh, because I do too, and I think that's I think that's significant because we we everybody talks about how they remember when they had their first kiss, when they they got their first girlfriend, or or sex, of course their wedding, But the first laugh is is not something that I mean, it's only a matter of

time before there's a podcast discussing my first laugh. Dr Myron Roll, former f s U Seminole, explains what laughter does to our brains and why it feels so good. And also facial expression, as you had mentioned earlier, this is also controlled from the brains them in that central processing area. So a lot of times when people laugh, they just have people say they face lights up as the muscles of their face just starts to sort of open up and eyes wide and and things like that.

Myron is also going to share how laughter has helped him adapt on the football field and the front lines of the COVID nineteen fight. I first guest is Gary Goldman. Brilliant, hilarious, one of my favorite comedians. He's been on every major late night show that a bunch of special. Gary is also a symbol of hope for those struggling with depression and anxiety. In his latest special, The Great Depression, he handles some very dark stuff, including a stay in the

psych word, with great humanity, vulnerability, and hilarity. And the special Gary also delivers a lot of the smartest, funniest material on sports that I've ever heard. I fell in love with basketball almost immediately because because basketball just fits my personality, it's still does. Basketball is the only sport you can practice by yourself. I spent a lot of

time practicing basketball by myself. And basketball also fits me because it's the only sport where if somebody so much as slaps you on the wrist, they stop the game, stop the game, set rate everyone, and let you make two easy shots while everyone else is forced to watch quietly, as if to say, think about what you did well. The topic today is laughter, because I think it's universal. It strengthens bonds, it builds relationships, and I think it's

needed now as much as it's ever been needed. So laughter. So for those of us that will never know the feeling of being on stage and getting laugh after laugh just in waves from strangers, describe what that feels like. Well, I I often put it in basketball terms. Now I am tall enough and had enough hops in high school and college to dunk a basketball, And I mean I was only dunking in in high school games and in rec league and and intramural games. But it is exhilarating.

And that's the closest I could say to making a room full of strangers laugh. But I will also say that everyone has, or almost everyone has had made their classroom laugh, or their coworkers laugh, or or more than

even sometimes one person. It feels so great that to have a laugh, and and why it's been called the short insistence between two people I know, which is a Victor Borg of what that you you use as your motto, and I think it's a it's spot on because although there are other universal languages like food and perhaps beverage, I think laughter is the most fun. I mean, I just think it's the most one and it does do things to your brain um that they can recall years later.

You can still get that same high off the one laugh you got, which I think is the beauty of a laugh. It's it's short lived, but it also has lasting power, certainly, And I think that. And I wrote down a bunch of notes and so I'll try to

spread them out over the interview. But one thing I regarding regarding language that I was that I was thinking was that dogs will will turn over and show you their belly when when they don't want you to hurt them, and and to show that they're peaceful, and and they

make themselves vulnerable. And I really think that that laughter is it is a similar similar technique to show people that you mean them no harm and also trying to trying to make somebody laugh, is it is another way to to say no, I'm I'm I'm here to to make you happy, and I like you. I mean, that's that's, that's what it always came down to for for me, especially outside of my own house. I recognized early on in my life that I could lighten them mood in

my home, and I would. There was a reward from making my family laugh, and I found that I could I could use that in school and in my neighborhood. That that was my my way of of making friends and feeling feeling liked and and appreciated. And unfortunately I needed more than than just kids in the neighborhood. And I or or I found out how much better it feels to get a room full of strangers to laugh, very very early in my in my life and and and like a person who is is Jones, and I

needed that. But but most people can can be satisfied and content with being this funny person or amongst their their friends. And I need to ask you if you found yourself at a young age, because I know how much you appreciate comedy and humor and you have good taste in it, if if only because you you enjoyed my work, I wonder if you like me, sort of arranged your life to be around funny people, and to that you sort of sought out the people who shared

the same comedians, the same show as. For me, it was it was Saturday Night Live and and those those those characters on Saturday Night Lives. That that and Steve Martin was a big one when I was very young, when I was six or seven. He came up with those those albums, and the people who got past those and got the movies starring Bill Murray goes for the people I sought out, right, I surrounded myself with intentionally,

and I was deliberate about it. Yeah, I think that one way to be happier is to just to be around funny people. They'll say that. And when I was a kid, it was the George Carlton records. My parents listen to that I didn't. I didn't really understand. They love Carlin. I could see that he was funny, but I was way over my head as a young kid. So it was the Little Rascals early early on, and

then things like laughing the Carol Burnett Show. She was an acquaintance of my parents and so we would always watch her show and the sketch comedy of Harvey Korman and Tim Conway would have my brother and I rolling on the floor. And that was such an awesome shared experience with the family to have those laughs. And later on obviously the Steve Martin albums and things like that, but but yeah, just the power to share a laugh

with your family and to make others laugh. I wasn't a professionally funny person, never have been, but I do remember Gary getting the very first laugh, and I was about seven years old. We lived in Illinois. I was into tall buildings. Is that funny Illinois? I guess maybe

it is a funny place. So what's what's funny. What's funny to me is that you remember your first laugh, because I do too, And I think that's I think that's significant because we we everybody talks about how they remember when they had their first kiss, when they they got their first girlfriend, or or sex, of course their wedding,

But the first laugh is is not something that. I mean, it's only a matter of time before there's a podcast discussing my first laugh or the first thing you laughed at, and and I think that's significant that you remember it, and I remember it. And it's only a sample of two, but I bet you a lot of people remember the first time they made everybody laugh, And the first time you probably laughed was for most people was probably a fart. But the first time that I gotta laugh, I was seven.

I loved tall buildings. So we went into the John Hancock Building, which was second only to the Series Tower. Yeah, you know with the win in Chicago, the John Handkick Building, and go up to the top view Chicago. Great experience.

And now we get in the elevator to go down, and it's crowded with adults and I'm seven years old and I'm on on a high from seeing this view, and the elevator starts to go down quickly, and I get that feeling and I announced, in a very excitable, high pitched seven year old voice, I can feel it. I can feel it in my And there is kind of a pause, and the adults were looking at each other. Is it okay to laugh at this seven year old kid making a dick joke? And uh, it turns out

that it was and they all laughed. And I didn't know what was funny about that. I was just expressing what I was experiencing, and I looked around and the elevator opens, they go out. They had a good story to tell, and my family had a story to tell to my great embarrassment, like for the next thirty years. But that was the first time I got to laugh. And it was it was like it was a high at seven years old. Wow, it is a high. And

and I mine mine isn't as funny. But I remember my I was in first grade and the teacher asked what a chick was, and all the kids said a baby chicken. And then and I didn't know anything about timing, but I I just I just knew that I had to wait a moment. And then I said as loud as I could or a girl, and and everybody laughed, and and I was like, this is this is the life.

This is the life. Everybody. I don't I don't know that anybody liked me, but it felt like everybody liked me after I after I said that, and the teacher tried to contain herself. It was, I mean, it's not as good as I can feel into my penis, but man, it it's uh, I'm I'm I don't know what your feeling was better? The one down below, or they're feeling at the laughter. But I it was I think it's the it's the forbidden laugh, right, It's the one where

you're not supposed to have. I mean having many cases on the job where it's you get the office giggles and Herb Street and I will start laughing. Either it's on the set you just you cannot make eye contact, or it's over in the booth. We've had a few tightrope walks where it says we're on the edge of just falling off and not being able to continue a Most broadcasters who've been around for a while have those experiences.

But yeah, it's those forbidden laughs for you. You you know you're not supposed to but you and you better pull it back or or you're gonna get in trouble. Those somehow feel great. But it was also this approval that you got from your family and from strangers and and I remember in an interview George Carlin talked about how he was sort of addicted or in love with the feeling of feeling smart and and clever. Is any clever when the grown ups in his life and say,

isn't he clever? And I think that's a that's a great that's a great feeling. And I bet you that there has to be some sort of evolutionary aspect of it. And that that brings me to another thing that I took down as a as a note, that that laughter is this incredible um release valve for for tension, and and we play on that as comedians and and building

tension and releasing tension. But I think that's that's also why it's it's evolutionary important, evolutionarily important, and and why we we are are so drawn to people who who make us laugh. I mean, the thing that that that keeps coming back about Abraham Lincoln is is one his his melancholy but also his incredible world class wit and and humor. And and the same with with Mark Twain, who was another another dark, sort of melancholy person who's

whose wit was just legendary. And and I think that there there aren't a lot of writers from that period who who hold up and who are still widely read and are still enjoyed by by people young and old. And I think Lincoln and Twain are two people and the bottom line was that they made people laugh. Yeah, I think the darkness and the humor are probably intertwined in the minds of lots of people. We can get

into more of that later. Why so many comics are are so tortured and have these considerable dark side as well as having the tremendous gift of lightness as well. I wanted to go back to the early lap because my wife, Jennifer is a partner in this production, and also obviously my my life partner talks about a laugh that she had as a third grader. It still makes

her laugh almost I don't want data. Almost fifty years later, and in the neighborhood, they had this this girl named Florence who's a friend of hers, who fell down in her driveway and broke her leg. Don't ask me how, but she got one of those very heavy, you know, plaster of Paris casts. This is mid seventies circuits. So you go to school with your big cast on, and everybody tries to make you feel better by getting a pen out and signing the cast, and so you sign

things like, oh what a bummer, Get better soon. And Jennifer took her turn to sign the cast and noticed that just before she had signed, her neighbor and friend in third grade, had signed the cast and written to this girl Florence, oh no, there goes flow on the cast, and that's an odd thing for her, great to write to make her feel better. And it turns out that the neighbor who wrote that it was Judd Apatown, the producer of your brilliant HBO special The Great Depression, And

and Judd and Jennifer shared a backyard. He made her laugh a few times. He was funny even as a third grader. But she's still, fifty years later, will laugh at oh no, there goes flow. And and that's that's the power of a laugh that many years later, by the way, from a third grader, which is foretold, his

his comedic talents. But Judge Judd had a great heart back then too, By the way, he built a house out of a cardboard box for Jennifer's pet turtle, cut a hole out and then put some plastic there so that the turtle would have a view out the window. That's the kind of heart that he had as a kid. So I thought i'd share that because you and he

have a professional relationship. Yeah, well we've become friends and and he is really a thoughtful, kind, decent man and and my my Rabbi friend put it best when he said, Judd at is not in love with show business. He's in love with comedy and and that and that shows and I think that's what's why you. I respect that you are not only super smart and gift to be, you're a grinder. And I mean that is the highest compliment. You folks need to understand that Gary's choice of words

meticulous specific, the right word and the right order. Obviously with the timing delivery any comics sweats that stuff. But your your love of words and your process and these bits that are months or years and the making. People have no idea what serious business laughter is. When it's it's broken down that way, I have just much respect. And where I learned about kind of your method and

the patient approach that you've taken. Well, here's here's another thing that I wrote down to share with you, and I wanted I wanted to see if you get this feeling too. But there's there's the feeling when you get a laugh and it's excellency. But there's also this feeling now that I've I've gotten over the years and and since I first started to write down ideas for Joe.

And it's that I get a similar feeling too when you solve a puzzle, whether it be a crossword puzzle or or one of these thinking puzzles or or riddles, there's a feeling in my head that when the right word or the right phrasing, or the right idea or

analogy comes into my head, it feels so good. So that I'm sure you have this in sports, because sports is so often trying to relate an idea that people haven't experienced personally, and and make them understand what is what is going on here or the significance of things that maybe they hadn't they hadn't noticed in the observations and and and also you you have these moments on on college game day where you're waiting to weigh in and you must think of something and you think, oh

my gosh, this, I can't wait to say this. I can't wait to say this, and that feels really good. It's it's the the sort of the I wrote down what it what it felt like that it was that it was something sort of pre high that when you've ordered your meal and you you recognize what you ordered on your waiters tray and and you're like, oh my gosh, that those the heat is they have to be for me, and they're about to arrive. And that's the feeling I get when I think of something and I can't wait

to say that. And I wonder if you get that on on college game day or you or you have the perfect rejoinder to to Lee or or Kirk or or one of the other gentlemen on the show. Yeah, I think the pre high is a perfect way to put it. And you have to enjoy the pre highs and not just wait for the highs because if the

process has to be enjoyable and fun. Game day wasn't formally scripted, but you obviously think about how you want to say things, and you have have little you have you have note cards just like what I'm using today. Here a little bullet points on there, and yeah, you would you would think of addle that do play well to those guys. There you go. My My, my penmanship

is much better than yours, sir. By the way, what what you have on the page is smarter, but mine is more orderly, so that I have very very good penmanship. But yeah, I mean I think I would sit in my room on a Friday night, late late at night, because I'm not turnal, I only get a few hours sleep before game day when I when I did that show, I get a much better wake up call now just

doing the games on Saturday night. But yeah, you would feel great because you're onto something that you knew would play well to them, but also to the eight or ten thousand kids behind you that had showed up to stare at the back of the heads on a Saturday morning, and they were probably hungover and tired or sleepless or whatever, and so you wanted to make them feel good. And playing to the live crowd and entertaining them was as close as you can get in TV to what what

you go through. And that's why that was so much fun. If game they hadn't been a live show and you hadn't gotten that feedback where the audience was a character in the show, I'm sure I would have given her up a long time ago, because in a student just

doesn't doesn't feel the same way your sports material. By the way, I have to say, this is is funny as anybody's ever It's I know, I know a lot of guys try it and they maybe have a line your entire bits, which folks must watch The Great Depression if you haven't yet on HBO, because a lot of it is devoted to sports. You as this the physically

gifted but reluctant athlete. What I didn't realize was that my high school coach had sent videos of my games to a bunch of colleges, and then these college coaches came to my high school to recruit me to play for them, and I wound up accepting a scholarship to Boston College because the head coach of the Boston College Eagles football team two years prior, head coached Heisman Trophy winner Doug Flutie, and then two years later he was

recruiting future Participation Trophy advocate Gary Goldman. I mean, I I love that you're you're, You're showed that vulnerable side. I also love that it's just really funny stuff about sports. Well, thanks. I remember when I was in in high school, everybody

wanted to be like like Bosworth, Brian Bosworth. He was so aggressive, and he was so violent, and and he was so outspoken, and we all wanted to have that type of personality and and and aggressiveness and and I saw how people reacted to that, and I felt that that isn't me, and I hate myself because that isn't me. And it took me into my forties, which whenever it

happens is great. I wish it didn't happen this this late to accept that I was never going to be an aggressive person, and I was going to be an athletic person, and who was going to let a lot of aggressive people down and a lot of really feisty, scrappy, smaller men down, and and to actually go out there and say this and then the audience not be turned off or boo me or I don't I don't know why I was so afraid to share this part of me, but it was much easier and that this will sound

like hi perboly arm exaggerating. It was much easier for me to admit that I had spent weeks in the psych ward from my mental illness. Then it was to admit that I really didn't belong on a football field and I was overwhelmed by aggressive men, and that I still when when Coach Bicknell offered me a scholarship, I still had a blankie in my in my room that that I treasured and and it just didn't make any sense.

And I think my drive to be a football star was based on being accepted by men's men, by the man's man, and there there's no bigger man's man than a than a college football coach, and he accepted me. And instead I should have been trying to find a way to accept myself as as a sensitive, timid young man. And and so I think I think the first therapy session I had in college and the first therapy session I had in my thirties with with my second therapist,

I've had two excellent therapists in my life. They were basically telling me, why can't you accept yourself. I went to this this man named Dr Tom Guinness at Boston College who was part of the university counseling services, at the end of double sessions because I was I was breaking down, I wasn't eating, I wasn't sleeping. And I went to him and he said, why don't you just quit the football team? And I it was basically because I don't want to admit that I'm I'm a sensitive, timid,

soft guy. And and that was what essentially, and it took us a year of meeting every every week to to finally say, okay, I I'm at least going to quit the football team. Whether I accept myself being a soft, timid person, I'm not going to torture myself every afternoon with this mandate on my on my manhood, this this referendum on my Did I say mandate, I meant referendum. I always confused it to a referendum on my my masculinity.

So this got off the top of of laughter. But I will bring it back to that by saying this, the football team knew, every player knew that I could not be counted on to execute the plays we were given, but I could be counted on to make them doubled over in laughter on the sidelines, um during double sessions and during locker rooms and after meetings, and and that

was how I survived that year of football. I was the funniest person on the on the team, and guys sought me out for impressions and observations and and good lines and and and that was how I That was how I showed my belly as a as a as a human being, and showed these guys that that please please don't point out to everyone that um I can't be relied on to to make a effective block on on alignment. Every team, every team needs a funny guy.

So I even though it was torture for you, you probably could have had a four year career just playing that role if nothing else. But I understand why you. By the way, this was just ec in eight nine. Uh, just the post Doug Flutie. But but Glenn Foley was was your quarterback. There was a bunch of future NFL guys in that team. That was a big time program.

You had a beautiful mullet in the team photo. Your shoulder pads like this, Why those those jumbo shoulder pads that were like double the size of what they wear now. So you looked a part, Gary, You looked the part, even though deep inside you you felt inadequate. So yeah, yeah, I I always felt I said, I built this this

very convancing real man costume through through through diligence. I Mean, the great thing about me as a as a as a player was that if you told me we need you to do these sprints and exercises all summer and lift these weights, I would do it, and and then I would get on the field, and there's something more than just being strong and and agile there which you had that rocky moment. I've heard you talk about the fact that you you trained your ass off, you built

your body up, and you were ready to go. You ran up the steps and then you you did all this and then you got knocked out in the first round. But at least you had that rocky moment, man, where you knew you had done what you need to do to be ready. That's more than most of us have. So yes, they never tell the stories of the Rockies who get knocked out on the first punch, or or decide the night before that they're they're going to They're

going to fake an intestinal illness Among comics. I'm sure you have the finest free throw form, right foot in front, neat, crouched eyes on the rim, tremendous follow through, and I know you're you're proud of your your free throw percentage, if nothing else about your basketball game when you play, which is very good. Yes, yes, yes, I I have always contended that that free throw percentage is a direct

isn't direct from Porsche into childhood loneliness. I know what you mean is both admirable and terribly sad because it needs and you have been a lot of hours when nobody else is around doing the the solitary act, which would you which the action just stops and you kind of just stand there and shoot a ball. But you did it well. You did it well at least, thank you. Yes, yes, yeah,

I was also wondering. I wanted to ask you because they're they're they're all these difffferent types of laughs, and you've been working with these guys for decades and so and I have friends from comedy for decades. I have friends from my life literally from the time I was

five or six years old. So there's the type of laugh you get when the set up to the to the punch line is and often the punch line is just mentioning somebody you've come across who looks like somebody from thirty years ago or acts like somebody from thirty years ago. You say that name, and the laugh is so dense and deep and long and and provokes other laughs and commentary and and it's so fulfilling, so that

there's there that's a that's a difference, beautiful. I yeah, and I and I know comedian I know one in particular comedian who had been doing it for so long that he was relating to me the pitch and timber of of laughs and telling me what the predominating or or dominant gender of my laughs were on a certain night. And and I wonder, but I know the feeling of the laughs that I get when a friend of mine

says something from when we were were five. And it can be as simple as saying, I'm going to get groceries at this store that closed thirty five years ago. And and I'm doubled over because I had forgotten that I even knew that he brings that up where she brings that up, and and and so I wonder if there there are things that that that the guys on your broadcast because you've you've been together so long, I mean,

that must happen all the time. It does. They don't even have to be verbal, though, Gary, I mean, you know somebody so well, it's the twenty five year that I worked with Kirk herbsheet on Saturday, as I go back that long with Leek Corps. So but you know, Kirk, wo walk into the bus. They don't see them all week, and sometimes it's not even it's not even a word.

It's just a look in the eye or the way that you do kind of the handshake, if it's like this serious, old white guy hand it could be something as simple as that, and we'll know what that means and we'll just start laughing and and no words are even needed. And that that's what's so cool when you have those relationships that are that are that long and that deep. I don't know your wife, shard as you say, not the shutda, but but a lovely your shut I mean,

Jennifer and I have had so many laughs. They've been so important as a couple, helping you through really challenging tough times. And early on, before we were even married, she was out selecting venues for the reception. I was working, and she had spent that afternoon. And now we converge back at her apartment, which was in the Jefferson's building, the same building they used for the Jeffersons, and it was not a deluxe apartment in the sky. So we

were back there together. She was telling me what her day was like and I was just trying to get to sleep, and then she gets up and has a violent episode of food poisoning. There was some bad food somewhere along the along the line there, and she gets up, and you know, the toilet was about five ft from where I was sleeping in bed, so it was hard to avoid it. And she's just wretching in there, and you know, she in the very kind of thin, weak voice, says to me, if you loved me, you'd you'd come

hold my hair back. And I managed to come up with isn't that what rubber bands are for? So, which I was pretty proud of on the fly. And the beautiful thing about it is that even though she felt terrible and was pissed at me, she just burst out laughing. I mean, it made her feel a little bit better that I had been insensitive but come up with something funny to say in the moment. And we still laugh about that moment, even though she should have known then

who she was marrying. I'm gonna try to make you laugh, but I'm not gonna hold your hair back ever when you're throwing up. Yeah, Oh that's great. Yeah, I mean I think about the laughter, and I was thinking about laughter in particular in that she's she's not an easy laugh and she also has to like you to laugh at what you're saying. So I think from the from the very beginning, making her laugh was was very rewarding

because she she has a high threshold. She's not she's a generous laugher, but she's not an easy laugh to to get. And but when she does laugh, she she enjoys it so much. And I also have found that there's never been a case where I have I don't try out jokes on her, but sometimes I'll say, what do you think of this? So I guess that is trying jokes on her, but I tell her that I'm trying out the joke on her, what do you think

of this? And if she laughs, I have never had a case where the audience didn't also laugh at that. And and so that's really important. And I was, I was. There were two things that I that I thought of earlier that that because of the popularity of College Game Day and just for the fact that it started at a half hour now it lasts for for hours. I yeah, but part of it is that it's a very funny show to watch. And I also think about the NBA with with Charles and and Kenny and Shack and and Ernie,

and that's a very funny show. And it's it's the most popular obviously NBA broadcast and one of the more popular sports broadcasts. And and and it's not I'm I'm a I'm a terrible snob when it comes to comedy. It's not dumb comedy that you guys are doing. It's not cheap, and it's it's not easy laughs or cruel or anything like that. And and that laughter that people are getting is is the reason why it's popular and

the reason why it's six usful. And it shows you how significant laughter is two people, and and how sports has evolved over the years, and and and the broadcasting is at it's at its best, and that the color is more colorful than than ever and and I think that's significant as far as the importance of laughter. The other thing I was I was thinking of is that is that we're also drawn to people who it's they're generous with their their laughter, and we're also put off

by people whose laughter is is too easy. And and we see that somebody laughs at something that really isn't that great, and we decide in our heads, well, they'll laugh at anything, and it's it's it's it's not that

big of a reward to make them them laugh. And I also know from sitting at this this comedy table in in the village of the comedy seller, where all the comedians sit around, there are some guys who you're never going to laugh, and they are asserting their dominance by not laughing at anyone and and it's infuriating and and I would rather not sit at the table than be around these people who are who are being who are bullying you by by not laughing, or just making

you feel so insecure and so unloved by by not laughing. And I think, I mean, that's the that's the thing that I noticed on on Barkley's broadcast and on your broadcast, is that the guys are are are very generous with their their laughter. Getting people to laugh though that you find funny has just been a high for me. Not that I've been at that often, but in speeches and in banquets things like that, Um, I want to say,

Martin short laugh. In an Excella express, it was an elderly passenger who was confused about yeah, and he's a genius and we're we're on this train, and this elderly passenger was confused about which bag is hers, and with help of a order, she just starts grabbing everybody's luggage and and I and I'm just kind of like stage was her. Yeah, sure, lady, take him, take them all And Martin Short burst out laughing. Not that funny in line, but the fact that Martin Short laughed at that, I've

never forgotten it. Robin Williams, the guy that I was very grateful to know a little bit and spend some time with um. When I made him laugh and all out belly laugh, I think that I can still feel that, I can still feel that high. And it's been I don't know, fifteen years or something. Yeah, it feels so good. And also he's heard everything and you were able to to get something and that made him laugh. It's a

tremendous accomplishment. And I also think about how you're more creative comedically when you're around people who are are laughers, who are generous with their laughs. We feel funny around, and that that was actually one of my tips, to to seek out and spend time and call people you feel funny around. Because a lot of the the germs of of an act and the germs of your voice

come from from that encouragement. I mean, that's the other thing is that the laughter isn't encouraging when that when that teacher laughed when I said chick, and when when you got your your penis laugh on the on the elevant, they're encouraging you. They're saying you are are clever, we we like you, and it and it's it's priceless, really,

it's it's so intoxicating. And I can't wait to hear what your your friend Dr Roll is it yeah, said says about the the the chemical and and the the the internal mechanisms of laughter and what's going on, because because something this fulfilling and energizing, that's the other thing that that Remember that this Smiths I was I was with I go to S's house for for Christmas, and I was with a lot of people that I didn't know, and and I was was very quiet and I was

I wouldn't say anxious, but I was like, oh, this this is um. I don't feel very energized right now. And then I said something and everybody laughed, and I was off to the races. I had that one of my favorite Christmas is and we we we They just said that at that point, Oh, we accept you, we accept you, You're you're one of us now. And and so I think it's it's it's this this incredible introduction that that you can make for your for yourself by being funny or or laughing at somebody who is trying

to be to be funny. And and it's yeah, that that and and also energy, which which we're always searching for when we're tired, and and and it almost makes you feel bad that this is all I needed was to was to have somebody laugh at me for for me to sit up straighter and and to be more engaged and to to speak with more force. It's it's it's it's really interesting laughter as much needed energy, especially

important these days. Gary was so generous opening up about his struggles that he's going to be part of a separate future episode focusing on depression and anxiety. You can follow him on Twitter at Gary Gulman, where he once offered three six straight days of joke writing tips. Next up, one of the true scholar athletes that have ever covered Byron Royal was a star defensive back at Florida's State earned a Rhodes Scholarship the same day he played in

a seminal win these days. Dr Myron Roll. It was a neurosurgery resident in Massachusetts General, so he's an authority on how laughter does wonders for our brains and nervous systems and even immune systems. Well, Myrons, to watch your path from f s U seminal where I covered some of your games, to the Rhodes scholarship, to Oxford to the NFL to a career of neurosurgery has just been amazing. UM, thanks for making some time in a very busy schedule today.

Appreciate it, no problem. Thanks for having me. Now, maybe laughter and Myron Roll would not be linked in the minds of a lot of people. In the same sentence, you tell tell me why they could be linked those two things. Well, h neurosurgery for one, uh is UM. You know obviously the study of the brain and the nervous system central and profill nervous system. And there's been so many different scientific discoveries and we're still actually working

through it. UM. Where Laft to Germans from UM and you know in our fields there's UM you know, a lot of crossover between laughter and what it means the evokes emotions how laughter can be associated with seizures, it can be pathological. Um. And then obviously just the intensity that comes with being a neurosurgeon working on the brain

and spine some very intense moments. Um. Sometimes laughter is probably the best thing that we can do is sort of alleviate some of that pressure and even give it to our patients to allow them to cope through some of the things that they're dealing within their family. So it plays an important role. Maybe not the first thing that comes to mind, but uh, in my field and my work, every single day I experience it, and it's

been helpful for sure. But I definitely dive into that why people call laughter such a good medicine, fast acting medicine. But let's back up. What role has has laughter played in your life? From being the youngest of a group of five brothers, being an athlete in a high pressure situation, UM, growing up, remember good laughs to your brothers. Remember trying make your brother's laugh so they wouldn't beat you up.

That's often the younger brother role, trying to if you can't be the biggest and strongest, you could be the most entertaining. It be funny, that's right, Absolutely, you know, our family came from the Bahamas, and I would grow up in New Jersey and I'm the last of five boys, and I remember, uh, you know, specific moments of my childhood adolescent years with my brothers, mostly tied to and

connected to humorous and and um you know, comedic moments, right. Uh, you know, when when we're playing with each other, or there's something that funny that happened on TV, a moment that we always recall. It's a lot of times associated with with laughter and the feeling that comes from that experience.

Even to this day, we have zoom calls on Sunday where we just talk about moments of our childhood and you know, yeah, there's some sad moments that come up, but for the most part, the positive and the eu fok feelings that you experience in some of the events together are associated, uh and sort of revolve around laughter. So I think for me as the youngest of five boys, um, you know, remembering some of those uh you know games

that we played in the front yard. Uh and how you know my older brother would go up to catch a pass one time and and he got sort of undercut. He flipped over and he fell and he made this incredible, weird noise that we still remember to this day. Who were busting out last thing. My parents came out and thought something went wrong, but we all were just cackling on the ground. Again a moment that we'll never forget.

That I'll pass on to my children when they come in this world one day and again associated around laughter and humorous events. It was really great. That's what's amazing. You can have a laugh with with siblings and you immediately returned to the age that you were when you had that. I've talked to families about that, and it's a great thing that you guys get on the zoom calls and still share those moments. I mean, I think that when we see little kids laugh, it's they have

hundreds of laughs today. And as we get older and adults get serious and lives get heavier, we have to kind of relearn how to laugh the kind of things that you and your brothers were having some naturally when your kids absolutely, yeah, no question, you know. You know, obviously, the the burdens and stress of life do come as you get older. You have more responsibilities, more accountability. Uh, you start to things start become a little bit more

real for you. Um, you know, you're not living sort of this fantastical, quixotic disneyland of a life, right and and uh and so sometimes you lose sight of, um, the laughter and the joys and the moments within moments and as children is just pure, it's innocent, and it just comes. And for my brothers and I, we experienced that,

we loved it. We try to hold onto that, and that's why we try to recall it as much as possible because we understand that once we get out of those zoom calls and get out of those moments, it's back to you know, trying to operate on brains from me and my brother being an educator, going back into the classroom and working through some of the difficulties with his students, and just the normal daily lives and the

rigamarole that we have to go through. But uh, you know, the memories are service sort of an escape away from the realities that you deal with every day. So you go from the games with your brothers in the yard to a very pressurized situation at Florida State where, like a lot of schools, football is a very big business,

very serious business. People don't always associate that kind of sports environment with laughter, But what role as it played as an athlete, whether it's in the locker room, in the huddle, just to get you through, um, you know, the physical and mental stress of playing big time football, Well, Chris. For me, I think laughter helped with trying to aggreciate myself with my teammates. I came from a prep school

in New Jersey, the Hunts School at Princeton. You know, I learned about Bill Bradley trying to be a road scholar there. I was tucking my shirt and my pants, I had glasses, I spoke differently on event. And then I go down the Florida States Tallahassee, where my teammates are listening to Rick Ross and had dread pots of gold teeth and saying words like jit and you know, drinking sweet tea country fried steak. I mean, the whole culture was different. It was a shock to my system.

And then trying to be familiar with these guys and trying to sort of, um, you know, aggreciate my stuff with them was difficult, right. I mean, I'm coming from a different world prep school down to this rugged Tallahassee. You know, they called Florida State the criminals at one point. I mean, we were um and we were looked at

sometimes being thugs and just hard guys. And you know, my teammates were coming from these very disenfranchised and poor neighborhoods and had a different way of life, from different vernacular. So for me to find the common ground between me and then it was laughter. It was things that we found to be funny, found to be you know, light and away from the stress of our home life, for our different cultural colloquialisms or things like that, because I

mean laughter at your own expense. Sometimes because you're looking at you, I think, what language is this guy speaking and you're trying to you're trying to bridge it with the lap but maybe you get you gotta make yourself the bottle of the joke sometimes right when you try to get in with the group, no question, you have to uh. And you know, I remember one time one of my teammates, you know, asked me if I had if I had a jet or an old lady And I said, first I was like bacteria or is that

a car? Like I don't know what that is? And then I was like, okay, I got a mother but no. He was asking if I had a son and if I had a girlfriend, didn't an old lady, And I was like, oh my gods, and they started busting out laughing at me. So yeah, they were laughing at me. But then eventually I realized, Okay, we both liked the show Martin right a sitcom. You both like Fresh Prince

of bel Air. So if I could recite some of the jokes from Martin Lawrence, or from Will Smith or from Coming to America, some of the funny movies they like, uh, and key moments and put it in like ran the right time, the guys will start laughing. They oh, this guy is kind of cool, you know, he's not like a square. He can kind of get along with us. So that was helpful for me. And Uh, it kind of got us through and I think bridge that gap between the cultural difference between me and then for sure

you have the short assistance between two people. That's what that's what laughter has been called at you talk about team building bonding. I think there's a way we'll get to the brain chemistry of it. But it releases inhibitions, immediately breaks things down when when people are sharing a laugh, I mean for me, it's been very important and sparking a romance a kind of a shared laugh. You have the shared laugh in the first date, probably going to be a second date or a third date if it's

a good enough laugh. And I think that just as as couple as you evolve, laughter is so important. You know, day to day the high pressure stuff that you begin to get into when your medical career blossoms, and and that is that is very serious business. But give us a sense because I think it would surprise people, not just on the front lines of the fight against COVID night Tune, which you played a part, but just average days in hospitals. There's always more humor and more laughter,

I think than people realize behind the scenes. Definitely, absolutely, uh. You know, especially in neurosurgery where the outcomes could be fatal and it could be terminal. Right, you know, we have a lot of patients who expire and pass on our service, and you have to have these conversations with family members, you have to have conversations with the medical examiners office corner. I mean, it's legit, it's real, uh.

And these are heavy and can certainly way you down, bog you down, and really put a black cloud over you. But in order to sort of get through that, my colleagues and I are nurse practitioners, are physician assistants. We share good moments, we share laughter, we share comedic events, and we try to make make light of certain things so that we're able to sort of get through. It's a way for us to cope with these very difficult situations,

as a way for us a sort of recenter. You sort of shake off the stress and the you know, the seriousness of of your day to day life. We all know that, right, We've got that down as a part of it. We signed up for this, yes, But then if there's a moment where we can just sort of take a break and have to add some brevity um to the whole situation, Uh, that could that could be helpful for us, and so um. I remember in the operating room when there was a six hour surgery

we're working on a brain tumor. Took off the bone, open up the maninjis got down to the brain tumor. Very difficult, very trying. You know, it was hard to get the vessels off of the brain, sorry out for the tumor. Because if you just yanked on the tumor, then the vessel will come everything will be terrenually bleeding.

And so we took a break and took a pause, and I remember our attending telling us a joke that he heard from like a weird tape that he was listening to a couple of days ago, and it just like shocked us. It was such a pressure moment, and we're like, really, this is what they're gonna say right now, and we all just started laughing and like, you know, put our head down, and man, I can't believe it. But that was the moment of re centering and sort of getting us all back on the same page that

we needed. We finished the case and everything went well. The patient will woke up and went home two days later and we had no complications, So you know, it definitely works in our field. Yeah, there's wisdom and that an understanding that having a laugh, pausing for humor doesn't necessarily destroy the focus of working on a very detailed, difficult job and then ruined the performance. That can actually

have the opposite effect. And I think that it's sometimes hard for football coaches to back up to Florida State. I don't know that Bobby Bowden is considered the funniest guy. I mean, people would have laughs uninten what he didn't know. But did did coaches understand that? Cause you talked about the teammates getting together, But the authority figures in football, whether it was there or the NFL, sort of understand that when players are joking around, it's not the worst

thing in the world. Wow, that's a great point, Chris. I honestly, I think sometimes it's generational, man, I really do. I think, you know, like you said, coach Bowt and then Cook Mickey Andrews also from Alabama. These guys are old school Paul Bear Bryant guys, and you know, you're laughing all the time. They're like, well, why aren't you taking this seriously? But for us, you know, it was

our way of getting through. And so when coaches were able to sort of put their their mindset into the life of a millennial, right into the life of a younger their player, I think they were more effective. I think that's what you're seeing in Clemson. I feel like you have a coach there and their head coach Sweeney, who was able to laugh and joke and maybe do

the crazy dances with the players. That it's me if I'm a recruit seeing a coach sort of get down and like be light like that and laugh, I mean, that's amazing to me. That's like, Okay, he's on our level and he understands us. He or sheet right. Uh. And I think coach Andrews and coach Batten they were a little bit disconnected from that, just based on age and how they grew up and where they're coaching philosophy

came from. But some of our younger coaches, Jimbo Fisher, when he was our offensive point there, he was able to sort of come down and laugh with us and be there with us, and that was helpful. I think you're seeing coaches picking in college at the at the younger generations understand that innately trying to connect with the players, trying to break the tension. And if you're not dancing around in the locker room, if you're not cracking a joke, if you're trying to be serious all the time, then

you're not connecting. I don't think with the with the current athletes, I think they're they're even if they're not funny themselves. You're trying to find a way to sort

of inject some laughter in all that. As I'll add to that to Chris, I think that, Um, you know, I've been watching this the documentary on Michael Jordan's The Last Dance and seeing you know, his leadership style and sort of thinking through like how I lead or how I would potentially lead versus how he leads and how their leaders lead, you know, and you think to some of those comments that were made in his documentary that you know he was a mean guy, or maybe he

was just so focused, so driven. We never saw Michael let up. He was so intense all the time. Um. You know, I guess that lets me leads me to believe that, you know, if you have amazing, immaculate talent and you have a certain leadership style and people buy into that, that it could work. But for me personally, I just I couldn't see myself leading a group of you know, grown men who all were talented enough to get to this level, um in a way where it was sort of fearful and you so you had to

drive a stake into him. I think I would share laughter with those guys. I think I would have those moments because I wanted them to see me as a human, as someone like them, uh not, so not disconnect. And I'm not saying Mike didn't have those experiences, but I think the what I got from it, the portrayal that I got from you know, his documentary was that he

was he was tough. He drove a hard line and if you didn't fall in line, then you have to move away and move off of that line because he was getting some where and obviously works because he was you know, one six championships was grants of all time. So there was some good behind the scenes stuff in the documentary, and there was some laughter, but usually was laughter by Michael at other guy's expense. It didn't go

the other way too often. You notice that. And there were very few people, i think in that circle I've spent a little time with him, very few people who would be gutsy enough to try to dig at him and get it and give it back to him and make him laugh. There's a few guys in his inner circle that can do that, and I think he respected guys who could. But you're right, the teammates are not really in a position to try to cross him in

that way. So so you go to Oxford. And again you're trying to bridge differences coming from Tallahassee, coming from the States, but your background quite different than those uh many other students who come from all over the place and are studying there. How do humor help bridge that situation or maybe ease whatever tension you had stepping into

the uh story campus of Oxford. Yeah. So I was uh intentionally trying to be careful, uh, not to be um, you know, to humorous when I went there, because I was like, oh, they don't they don't think of me as a serious um Oxford students, right, Uh, coming from the States, being a big open city, you're trying to be mr serious like exactly exactly. These people are leading with their intellectual capital, and they're leading with their scientific

discoveries and their research. And here is this big, hulking football player from America leading with some humor. So I was very conscientious of it at first, but eventually I said, you know, I had to be myself. You know, I have to be who I am, or else is gonna feel inorganic and you know, unnatural and feel uncomfortable. Uh. And so it wasn't until this friend of mine, her

name is Aisha sad she's a Muslim woman. Where's a hej from Carry, North Carolina, went to USC Chapel Hill and was a rood scholar with me who sat down with me at breakfast one time. It was like mine, you know, I know you're trying to fit in here. I know assimilation is difficult for you here for me to write, I'm a Muslim woman coming here, you're a black man coming here. But we have to be who we are. Uh. They chose us for a reason. And and so from that point forward, you know, I wasn't

trying to bend towards anyone else. I was told, hey, you want to if if you accept me in this culture, in the society, uh, then you should come to where I am because I'm gonna be exactly who I am and who they wanted through this road scholarshar process. And at that point I'm not sure if anything changed on their end, but I know for me, my my opening, my perspective, uh really just it just took off because

I was able to enjoy my time there. I was able to laugh my friends, I was able to be who I was with Aisha and other Rhodes scholars and other people I met at Oxford and it made the whole experience enjoyable for sure, and that allowed me to build friendships with people from all over the world Lusaka, Zambia, from Perth, Australia, Cairo, Egypt. Just have so many connections because I was who I was, I shared my personality and through my personality came laughter and humorous events and

it was great without being overly clinical. Why does a good, long deep laugh feel so damn good to the brain and the nervous system. Well, uh so, okay, let me let me try to be not overly clinical, because I do love the brain as you know, for a long time, you know, as pendicol as you want. But maybe don't don't leave us more confused. And we were before you started talking, all right. So let's so, there's there's a part of the brain UM that is responsible for involuntary

laughter that somehow connected to emotion UM. And when you experience emotion, so it doesn't have to be just hearing. It could be seeing, it could be feeling, it could be touched. Um. You know, any sense that you have where you're outside world is perceived as emotionally driven. This part of the brain is sort of in the middle part towards the temporal lobes sort of on the side here, this sort of gets activated and it transmit a pathway down to the brain stem, which is basically the center

of who we are, our existence in the central nervous system. Uh. That gets processed there and then it the response from the brain stem is changes, uh in our autonomic functions. So what does that mean? That means your heart rate starts raising a little bit faster, means you may start sweating, means the lack of one ducks may start going, you start crying, you know, and you have those belly laughters and like all the tears come out because and you

can't control You're like, why why are tears coming out? Well, it's all sort of driven from the same area. Your respiratory um status starts increasing a little bit obviously, start breathing more, breathing differently in between laughs. Uh. And then also facial expression because you had mentioned earlier. Uh, this is also controlled from the brain stem in that central

processing area. So a lot of times when people laugh, they just have people say they face lights up as the muscles of their face just starts to sort of open up and eyes wide and and things like that. So you know, the brain is is amazing where it connects all these different parts of our bodies to show the response that um, you've proceived from this humorous memory events, this feeling, this emotion. And that's one pathway of laughter. Then there's other pathways of laughter that you know, our

aren't really associated with emotion. Another one is laughing gas for instance, right, you don't you know, experiencing laughing gas, but you just get that and then well, boom, off a sudden you start laughing. We've had a patience who we stimulated their brain because we're trying to operate around a certain tumor. We want to make sure we're not hitting the language functions and they start laughing in the

operating room because they are awakes still. Um. You know, and as I mentioned, sometimes seizures are classified as being gelastic seizures when you know, associated with laughing being pathological. So uh, those are a different category. But the one we're talking about and the one evoked by emotion, uh starts their process to the top of the brain in the central part, down to the brain stem and it comes out that way and it's a it's amazing, beautiful

network when it's all done. For sure, Yeah, it is beautiful. It's amazing how fast it happens, and amazing if you believe studies, how long lasting the effects are. We know it improves mood and can release stress and all that, but the ability to reduce pain, to boost your immune system. You live longer if you laugh a little bit more often than than the average person, which I think is that's what proof right there that the value of laughter.

Is there a particular moment in this this you know, grizzly heroic fight against COVID nineteen, when the shifts are just amazing, folks yourself included working marathon shifts where a long laugh has gotten you through one of those shifts or or giving you the energy to come back and and you know, rejoined the battle. Yes, there has. Um, you know, seeing some of my colleagues, um talking with them. Uh, we talked about how taking the stress of COVID nineteen

home with us is hard. You know, we talked to our families. They want to know all the stories about the patients, what's going on, because they're hearing about it on TV. And then they see you come home and well, what's really happening on the front lines. It's really happening

in the hospital. I'm remember speaking to my wife and talking to her on FaceTime actually, and you know, explaining to her about some of the uh, the patients that I was dealing with and some of the things I've seeing emergency departments, and you know, she just reminded me of a time that we had together, um where I was trying on sort of the gowns and the gloves, just sort of by myself to make sure I did it right, because it's a proper way to gown and

glove sterile and then take off those gowns and gloves. I was doing it, and you know I was wasn't doing it correctly, and you know, you know, big bad road scout, you know, can can think about all these things that people saying you're the smartest athlete of all time and you can't even put on a gown. I'm glad. I mean just things like that. I'm like, man, okay, humble me, bring me down to where I need to be. Uh.

And it was funny, it was great. It's sort of said, okay, yeah, you know, you're not as hot as you think you are and you can laugh at yourself and she can laugh at you and put it all things into perspective. So I think that was a moment for me where I realized, Okay, get off your high horse, get down to where you need to get to, because you're not the most important person. It's equation as these patients who

are going through this stuff. And if you're was the sort of if laughter is able to break that tension, uh, then um, that that's a good thing that happened for me. It's going to continue to be important because yourself and others who have spent the time on the front lines will carry forward some of the scars of of what you've seen and what you've felt there. I think laughters can continue to play a role. I know it's being used right now to help treat patients who have dementia

at Alzheimer's. My mom suffered from that. And and to be able to bring in a comedian. Um, there's you know laughter on call in l A which brings in comedians and in a way that very few things can. Laughter can connect with these people whose brains are struggling to find clarity in the fog. And it's it's that's a beautiful thing. You try to have a good laugh every day, Myron, is is that part of your daily ritual? Yeah? Yeah, definitely have a good daily laugh. Talk to my brother

and my family, my friends. Social media is full of it, and the people I follow on social media are hilarious. My favorite comedians I tried, you know, checking with them a lot. So certainly having a good laugh is important daily part of life. Well, it's gonna be amazing to watch your journey. You've got a book in the works. I know you've got some travels to Africa and a lot of other chapters in your life to write. It's been awesome to watch so far. I can't wait to

see how the rest of it unfolds. Maron, Thank you, Chris, I appreciate it. Man so grateful to Dr Myron Roll, and to Gary Gallman and co executive producer Jennifer Dempster and producer Jason Whiteout. I hope you'll subscribe to via an Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts, And I hope you have enough laughter in your daily life. It really helps to surround yourself with funny people. If you can help you and your significant other can make

each other laugh a lot. It really is precious and crucial. And if you can, then you can tell each other. All I'm after is a life full of laughter. As long as I'm laughing with you, we'll let Doctry have the last word. Un laughtered here. Thanks for listening, and I'll talk to you soon