LANCE ARMSTRONG

how how messed up is that? I mean when I think of my story and I was powerful, I mean I could I could, you know, should I ask President Bush for a billion dollars for the n C? I you know, I mean, that's who does that. I didn't know. I mean the power that I had and abused. I didn't know it. And it's a shame. I'll never have that power again. UM. And I know that, I know that with certainty, and there is a part of me that that is extremely sad about out that, but I

can't change it. Um. But but I know now the power that I had and and that I abused, and so UM, that's that's that's a shame. This was wide ranging, honest. Raw. The language is raw too, by the way, even a little emotional at times. Here it is my conversation with Lance Armstrong. That sounded that sounded like a good start. That's yeah. I won't tell you how I've started the interview without pushing the red button before. That's a little embarrassing,

but it has happened. All right, man, here we go, Here we go. So we made about thirty four years ago, I'm doing Scholastic Sports America. Go down to visit this kid in plan Out, Texas. You don't even know that cycling is going to be your sport yet, but there was something about this kid and his mom. You had a drive, You had an edge, You had a belief in yourself. Your mom had a belief in you, and

she was tough and resilient. I said, I don't know where this guy's going, but he's going somewhere, and it's gonna be interesting to see where. I don't have that sense that often. Did you have any sense that you

were going somewhere interesting? I mean I didn't. God, maybe in in on some level, but I didn't know where in the world it would take me, and I certainly didn't know that I would, to your point, um, because you were there covering a young try athlete, right, I didn't know that that would lead me to the bike and the Olympic Games and onto a career professional cycling. But um, that's that belief them. I don't. No one knows specifically where we're headed. I mean, it's just unknowable.

It's foolish to trying to think that here's where I'm headed specifically. But did you have a sense though Lance only child and raised by your mom, there were some tough moments in the household that you've written about. Did you have a sense that you were headed somewhere though, somewhere important to do something big? I mean, if you yeah, I would have. Uh, I think what what what you felt was probably, I mean nobody can say it with

a confidence, but I was, Yeah, I was. I didn't know what scale or what level that would be on, but I was. I was pretty sure that that. I was sure, and I I never, um, you know, I saw myself going off to college and getting a job. I mean I was sure enough that I knew that that was gonna be my job you've written a little bit about it. Where do you think that that drive and that edge comes from that served you well to

get to where you went. You know, it's it was this mix of um of anger as a young you know, as you alluded to it, you know, growing up with mom um um and I've never met my father had a stepfather that wasn't a good fit uh for her and I UM, and so there was there was this edge to it, um, but also I you know, at the end of the day, like you could be as mad as you want or as motivated or as is angry to to to um to prove people wrong, but at the end of the day, this is a hard game,

right And you were you were covering a young tray athlete that that even at a young age fifteen sixteen years old, that was three or four hours a day of training, you know, between swim practice and track practice and riding your bike as much as you could. You know, it added up. So you gotta love it and I always did like that was um no part of me ever And and you know, maybe maybe a miserable day in the in the Alps when you got to get out there, but there's every day that it was time

to go to work. I was like, fuck, yeah, let's go to work. This is this is this is fun. Like I would do this for free. Yeah. At the time me, you were trying to make a few bucks and and keep gas and whatever. Call was kind of a beat up but still pretty cool Alfa Romeo, which was an interesting car for Texas. But I mean I thought this, you know, it was very much hand to mouth man and you you earned every scrap of that. In those early days before I realized how much money

cyclists made, well, I was. I was. I thought I was rich. You know, I'd go off to I had a little bit of sponsorship money, but I was you know, I was a sixteen year old kid. I'd fly off almost every weekend to compete, mostly domestically, but some trips twice to Venezuela, a couple of times to Bermuda, Mexico, um the Bahamas, and so you know, i'd come home with If I came home with in prize money, I was like, Oh, where's where's the yacht that I'm gonna buy?

Like I was convinced, and I thought that was a lot of money. But the reality is I was just Uh. And my mom we lived very simply, um, and she worked and worked hard her whole life. Um, But it was just a little bit of relief for her, you know, if I needed a car or gas in the car, or haircut or go out, have you know, burgers with

my buddies. Like you know, I have young kids. They're always asking me from a dad venmom, twenty bucks, forty bucks, you know, but you know, money, money, money, I'm like, so I didn't, you know, I didn't have obviously we didn't have venmo, but I didn't. It freed up that whole part of of her and eyes dynamic. Um, but it was my and my buddies thought I was rich, dude.

That was the funny thing. You know. I was fourteen when my dad was diagnosed with cancer, and he died when I was sixteen, So some lessons were learned by that. Time is precious. We're guaranteed nothing. You always seemed from the time I met you, and you're about that same age that you were in a hurry. You didn't believe the time was there to be wasted. I wonder Lance if you had any kind of sense. It's pretty heavy question, but any sense deep down that that something was coming

where you're gonna realize that you're guaranteed nothing. And the time could be pretty damn precious in this life because you were in a hurry from the time I met you back at that age, right, Uh, you're right and and and Chris, you you knew me during my cancer journey and at that point, so I didn't have that sense and I was in a hurry and the only time that life has really and this is the silver lining, uh, to to a diagnosis and to going through this whole

process of of fighting for your life. You know, then yes, everything slows down and you everything smells different, everything looks different, friends seem different. Um. But by by golly, um, you get better, you get back, you get put back into the world, and and it's just inevitable. Life speeds up and and and even to this day, um Um, life moves fast. And that's and then now I'm fifty years old. You're gonna wait a minute, did I just make the turn and I'm the back nine? Or am I? Like?

You know, just get into the cart girl, that's gonna serve me about ka Sota on fifteen? Like which which which part of the round? Am I on, and so it's it's it's a damn good point. And I don't think I don't I don't think anybody ever masters that. I mean maybe maybe, I don't know. You know, some

of these elevated individuals have mastered it. But boy, life life moves quick and and um and yet I haven't figured out a way to balance it and slow it down and um and and truly cherished and look at five kids, been through a whole hell of a lot, tons of reflection, tons of mistakes that I've learned from and and um, it's it's a it's a it's not a I started saying it was struggle. It's really a journey,

like just trying to figure out. And I love following actually follow a lot of your stuff on on Instagram, just whether it's through meditation, breathwork. I do think these things help. Um, I don't practice those regularly, but um, man, if you figure it out, especially at this point in my life, like I would love. I really feel like, um, yeah, you know, the story is what it is, and I'm sure we'll get into some of it or a lot

of it. Um, but boy, I kind of I feel like I've got a stride again, and and that's the time where you're like, okay, man, you were at one point one of the biggest athletes in the world, and then everybody said, okay, you're done, you're canceled, and you hung in there and you were able to get that stride. That's the time when you want to say, wait a minutumue. Now, now's the time you need to slow the funk down and appreciate this because not only did you hang in there,

but the world. Okay, the world gave you an opportunity to get that stride back. Like if I get to the end of my life and I look back and I think, what was that, Like again, I don't really remember, that would be a loss. Yeah, you covered a lot there, and as someone who's at the end of the decade you just began, I hope we get more than eighteen holes. I hope I get to replace sixteen or seventeen, because

ships sixty we call those e holes. You know, I very often don't take the time to reflect when I feel when I'm busy it's not productive to do that. But when I sit back and reflect, I do enjoy it. A lot of the time you've had such a variety and then an intensity of experiences. Man, I mean, what role does reflection play in your life right now when you get a chance to slow down for a minute. Totally huge, huge, And you know where I when I think of reflection, you know, I'm really I really don't

think of sport. I don't think of of the mistakes that that I made and and and many in my generation made. I don't. I don't think a lot about that. I think of of, yes, that happened, how did I handle it? How did I handle it as a champion, as a man, as as an idol um. I think a lot about that, And then I think about um, my children and and having And it's been interesting because

I have two sets of kids. I've got of course Lucas twenty one, Grayson Isabelle at both nineteen, and then I've got Max and Olivia who are twelve and eleven. So I've had some sort of two chances to to be a father. Um. Tons of reflection on that, and I think, you know, and again to to the it is a benefit. It has been a benefit to have another chance at it. It's just a different go round, um, and not not that anything went wrong with the first one, but you know, at home more and more present. Um,

just just a better dad. Uh. And then in my relationships, you know, whether it's with Anna, m friends, I think, look, relationships, marriages, partnership, what do you want to call him? Fucking complicated? And and I've not, Um, you know, Anna and I've been together for gosh, almost thirteen years now, and it's been a wild ride. You know, this woman came into we came into each other's lives at the peak and then

we went straight to the bottom. And for us to to to navigate our way out of this and be closer than ever. Um, that that one I think is the most and not to minimize the others, but that piece and really honoring that is reflection has been hugely important. Yeah, that's something to be tremendously proud of on both of your parts. It's right, it is sucking hard sometimes and

it's not meant to be easy, and it isn't. But be proud of the fact that you guys have had those different chapters and or as strong as you are. You mentioned that's an interesting way to put it. I haven't thought about that, but almost two different fatherhoods, I mean, Luke is old enough to have been on the podium at the Tour of France in Paris. He writtnessed that kind of those chapters as a kid, Um, your daughter is not so much. And then now, um, your younger

kids come along sort of after the fact. So everybody wants to know. I'm sure you get asked, what do you tell him? How do you reflect the lessons you've learned, the mistakes you've made, because that's what parenthood is about, right, teaching them the lessons you learn yourself. Complicated stuff though, right, very very very complicated in my older ones, Um live through it. I mean Luke was you know, Luke was

fourteen years old. The girls were twelve, so that this was this was you know, fourteen year old kids, Uh, either see the newspaper that their parents just read or you know, watch over their parents shoulder while they're watching

the Oprah or whatever. And so that was real time, right, So that was that was man all hands on deck, dealing with the school, dealing with school counselors, talking to other parents, talking to other kids, so real time, and and helping them navigate this fall from grace and it's and and I and I speak about this a lot actually, because it's my younger ones were alive. They were very very small, obviously, not seeing the newspaper, reading anything, or

watching Oprah. But and this is what I speak to, is that we live in a generation where everything is forever. So while my my younger ones didn't live through it, they weren't in school. You know, nobody say anything in the hallways. Um, they're gonna grow into it. They're gonna grow up there that it's already happened. People say, oh, yeah, wait, your dad, your dad's that guy. And it's not a

that's very very rare, thank god. Um. But I'd be a fool if I sat here and said Max Armstrong, who's twelve, is never gonna watch one of his dad's interviews. He's never gonna watch Oprah Winfrey. You know, they will grow into it. And so yeah, I've I've kept the same approach with all the kids. I think. You know,

my older ones are are just absolutely flourishing. Um. But there will be a time where those the younger ones want to say, wait a minute, I was too young, but can we just go back there and what happened again? Are you ready for that? Totally. Absolutely. I've I've said from it'll be same policy I had with with Luke Rays and Isabel is that we're gonna have a conversation and it and it's not a one time conversation, it's an ongoing conversation. So you know, I'll answer any question

and talk to you about this anytime forever. Right, there's an open door policy. And so um, it hasn't come up with the little ones. And maybe it's you know, as happens in society and and sort of in culture. Uh, not to diminish or erase the misdeeds that I have lived. Um, but things soften and and um, it'll it'll probably be a smaller story in the grand scheme for their lives,

but it's still a story. And and and I think the most powerful and important thing I can do for them is just say, hey, anytime you want to talk about this, let's do it. You were bull of survivorship and you're a You're a magnet for so many people.

I did witness this in some small degree, regular folks and also ultra famous, ultra accomplished legends who just wanted to meet you, wanted to know you wanted a piece of your time whenever started happening, and you realize you're right, I'm just had here raising a bike and these people I want to know me and they want to be in my presence. That kind of just feel what there is. Was there a light bulb moment we realize, oh my god,

this is intense. No, now that's the sad thing. And that's when into your earlier pointer to our earlier discussion. When life is moving that fast, there is you yea. The memory can only capture so much and his life is moving and it is just hyperspeed, and you know, you're trying to do your job, You're trying to train, there's heads of state that want to hang. There's you know, rock stars, you name, it's for stars, fellow, all your

peers doesn't matter. Um, the hard drive doesn't capture those moments. I mean I will have you know, my longtime manager, Mark Higgins, you know there were times he'd say, do remember that time you met so and so? Who's so and so? Give you an example? Well, I mean, you know, it's okay, it's okay, I know, and I should I didn't capture that moment either, but it's um, I'll remember it. But it and I'm not trying to protect anything, but

you're just like, no, actually, I don't remember that. Okay, let me take it back to two thousand five, when you retire and there's some friends in the south of France and your phone rings and it's Bono says, hey, coming over for lunch. I've got some people. Bring all the people. I do remember that. I mean, now I'm driving like a minivan as a caravan. A car has headed down that you know, down along the Mediterranean the Bono's house, and there's like this incredible lunch and he's

making speeches and toasting. I mean, and that's just a day in the summer for you, Like, I mean, well that was that come on, that was after the first retirement. That was that was That was a big deal. I okay, at least acknowledge it was a big deal. I think you're saying I've forgotten about Wait a minute. Those of us who are there think about that a lot. If you're a YouTube fan, and he's a wonderful friend and

and and he is quite the orator. I mean, he you'll remember, and you know, the rose was flowing and so everybody was everybody was that was no, no, no, no, I'm not. I'm not forgetting that one. Good. I'm glad you know you're you're various to you see the look in people's eyes, you look into their eyes, you take their measure. You had to do that as an athlete, you do it and what you do for a living now. And the look you saw in other people's eyes when they check you out, I mean I saw some of it.

It was beyond respected admiration. Some it was just awe sometimes. And you see that in people, and you saw it for years, maybe you're too busy to notice it, but now maybe you see different things. People's eyes, What what expressions? What what vibe do you get from people when you bump into them? Is it run the gamut? Yeah, it's

it's um. It's evolved, you know, that's it's been. And I always use Oprah as although the downfall started before that, that was really the um sort of coming out party for the public, and that was that was January thirt It's been, you know, we're coming on nine years and so it has evolved and um it uh it um I've alway I've been no matter what, even early on, no matter what, I've only had one negative reaction, which was covered pretty well in the ESPN thirty for thirty.

But you know, it didn't need to be a bunch of people standing up at a bar going fuck you. Right. We all know when you're sitting on a plane and the guy next to you his and instaid a word. You know, in his mind is going fuck this guy. We know so, but I have always been okay with that. I didn't you know, nobody's you know, votes for that.

But look, I and it's it's more of an understanding that that so many people were along for this ride, in this journey, that um, there was bound to be some hurt feelings, a lot of hurt feelings and and a lot of um um anger. And so I was. I decided very early on that my world will change forever and and I better be a tough guy and a big all these things I've ever wanted to be a you know, tough and and and and resilient all this ship now is the time. And and I was,

and and I accepted. How is that different? How is that toughness a resilient different than than having to bounce back after a long day in the bike or meet the attacks on the slopes about the west. How is it different or is it all that it's different? That was easy, and upon reflection, that was really those are physically hard days and you're tired. But and and I well, I mean we had rough days on the bike with the public. We were not certainly not the most popular.

Um but I I just those are easy days compared to now sometimes uh yeah, yeah, and when but I should say it is evolved, you know. And I more and more as I walked through my day, I encounter a lot of folks that that will they'll they'll take you through the whole journey. Man. Let me tell you something. I was your biggest fan, and I fucking hated you. And then you know, I listened to a couple of your podcast. I see the stuff you're doing, and I see the way you act, I see the things you say.

You know, I think I'm I think I'm okay. Now you know, it's just and by the way I mean it sounds to its course. Absolutely, that's the cool thing like that, because I do have more time, right those days which you experienced, some of you don't have any time. You know, somebody's trying to tell you some great story and you're like, hey, thanks, gotta go. Whereas now it's like tell me, walk me through it. And it's just

a different look in a different connection with other people. Um, it's it's it's I wouldn't you know, I wouldn't trade it, man, It's it's been nartly. But I'm but I tell myself all the time, and I tell others when I wake up, I don't I don't want to wake up as anybody else. I kind of looked at myself and go, glad, I'm you weird. No, I mean that's the only way to be. But there there will be people imagining that you were sitting there saying something different, like can I just disappear? Man?

And I just go somewhere where nobody knows my face, nobody's ever heard of me. They don't care about cycling and EPA and now that stuff. I mean, that's that's that's, that's the decision that that you're um faced with right to to just fade away and or even more um toxic or self damaging. Um. There are plenty of other things that folks can get into to numb that experience in that pain. I didn't do I chose uh to

not do that. I chose to to triple down on my family, to double down on my health and wellness and just hang in there. And who knows man, And I was I joked, I was like, maybe somebody will throw me the ball again, because if they throw me the ball, I ain't dropping it and I'm running, I promise, And um, you know, I don't know where I am in that cycle. You know, there's a lot of good stuff going on. But I'm glad I hung in there. I mean, there was there was I will tell you this.

There was probably a day because Anna and I are married, so she's got a different last name. There was a day I said, Honey, I said, I need to become Lance Handsome as soon as possible. And She's like, what the funk are you talking about? Like you were Lance Armstrong and so um. But that that was very you know, that was just a split second and it just just hand just hung in there. You got deep early here. I appreciate that. I wasn't sure we would go that

deep or get there that quick. You mentioned. I mean there's others. There's simple stuff we could talk about. You know, there's you know stuff too. We could we could talk about how we both went to the same high school in Colorado Springs with other with other um you know, uh we did at different times. I don't know. My attendants is probably better than yours because you were just then the Olympic Training center in Colorado Springs. I don't want to you said a couple of times mistakes, misdeeds,

and without me even bringing it up. So what were the mistakes if you were to list them in order, what were the mistakes you made? Well, the mistakes are it's you know, most folks want to hear. I mean, if you if it's any uh anything widely categorized as cheating, they want to they want you to address that mistake. It's a very very complicated time. And I you know, I I never give popular answers when it comes to this.

We were we were in a cesspool and looked it was we all made mistakes, and that that doesn't make mind bigger or smaller news. But but the mistakes were made, and I became the best in our sport and became the biggest by far in our sport. I was the voice of the sport, the face of the sport, and so therefore and I in many ways brought this onto myself,

which was also a mistake. You know, I'm the one who invited all the questions and invited all the scrutiny, and it was easy, right, There were plenty of things leading up this to naturally continue the scrutiny, and I just I just could not um. I couldn't differentiate between on the bike and off the bike, so to speak. As hard as I fought on the bike, as hard as I fought in training, and I get off the bike,

I just wanted to fight. People ask me, que you know, fuck you and you just lie, lie, deny, deny, deny. And that's a very you know. And again this is if I had, just if if I could have stepped out, just whatever factor it is from there and and seeing me this guy, all the things that you've said, Chris, this person who all the words that that you just used, that people would stand in all that you were a hero, that you were carrying this entire cancer community, that you

were carrying the entire sport. If I would have realized the importance of that role, it would it might have been different. I almost said it would have been because I can't guarantee that because I'm a hard headed, tough mofo and so, but it might have been a little different. And I just um, I had no appreciation for the position that I held, and so therefore I abused it.

And so that's those to me. Yes, we have to acknowledge that the unfortunate time for all of us, we all made mistakes there, not to minimize it, but the bigger sin was just how I didn't understand and appreciate the position I was in, and and and as a man, I mean that that if you think about it, you know, there's there's no honor in that. There's no honor in line and denying, there's no honor in attacking other people. There's no honor and sort of perpetuating this myth um

and so that that's you know, that's the stuff. Those are lessons boy you as a parent or as a friend or is just watching other people fall. You can't teach those lessons like that. This is you kind of you just have to live it. I know that contrition isn't easy for you. That sometimes apologies aren't easy for a lot of us. I mean, with a lot of us do work on ourselves to get better in the areas that we need to improve. Whether that is saying I'm sorry, I fucked up, I should have done better

in this. I mean you've worked on that, right, because it those things were challenging for you, yet a sobbeign streak that served you well as an athlete and maybe in a lot of other fields. But was it seems I'm hearing you say they kind of got in the way of stepping back and and and stepping up brilliant in those moments. Absolutely, I mean that's that's you know, I think there's there are the um the obvious in

in the ark of this story, there are the obvious ones. Um. By the way, there's no way to make you know, this story as as big as it was, there's no way to make amends with everybody. Whether that's the handful of folks that many people think of, but there's really

if you think about it, there's handful. They're a handful of maybe billions of people that that I'll never get to meet that we're affected, and we're upset and felt not just betrayed, but also felt complicit because they were a part of this story and they took so much to personal pride and invested so much that they felt complicit um. Those are the ones that I just ad man, I if you could just you know, people always situations like this is an apology tour, you know at the etceteration.

You can't because the real community is out there, like you'll never The only way to do it, I think is to is to live a life of with as high as of honors as you can and and and look, boil it right down. I mean, we're having a conversation. I'm gonna be totally honest with Chris. If we'd have had this conversation, you're one of my best buds. If you'd asked me these questions or ask any of these questions twelve years ago, I would have light in my fucking teeth and one of my best friends. Now, how

how messed up is that? So you just that's just been my commitment. I don't know. You know, if five new people will listen to this and go okay, that's different. I don't know, man. There's an evolution process that people who pay attention and haven't formed opinions and decided long ago which people do, they get in trenched and then your story is written in their head and they don't care what you say or what you do. Case closed. But it's pretty clear you've done work. Do you think

you've done all you can do? Or is it an evolving process to say, hey, I'm sorry to those affected, or I should have been better, I should have stepped up. Is that in your view? Done? No? This story was too big. This this was too big. And I and I do now know, you know, I I am far enough to removed. And as you know, I follow enough sports, and I watch guys, and I watched the way they act, and and I see the way they treat their competitors, and they handle the press and they deal with fans.

I'm far enough removed to now know how big and massive the story was. So with that knowledge, it will never be done right. This is again, I don't know what hole we're on here for the rest of my life. And it's funny. I hear I hear people, you know, I get people come up to me and say, you know what you've already said, You're sorry. Stop saying you're sorry. I don't buy that, and not that I have to

sit here and say I'm sorry. But what I do have to do is sit here and have a very super honest dialogue with you that your fans are your listeners are gonna you know, take in and so no, it will it will never ever be done. And anybody that tells me to stop, I think they're wrong. The idea that people are telling you to stop apologizing and then you're list and you're weighing that off is interesting because for a while, just one apology was tough to

come from. And I but that's evolution, man. I think it's I think people need to appreciate that you've done that work. You know, nine years since they officially you know, stripped those seven Tour de front titles and they quote never happened and they never named another winner. They're just kind of seven blank years in the overall classification. Um. And you know you were You deserve to be forgotten forever for cycling, said some of the officials you run

those things. I mean, you're smiling now. But is that he to choose that bother you that people believe that should never happened. Well, I think if anybody believes that it, I don't I choose. I don't think people. I think people's memories are are their memory and they're pretty good, and they they've watched these races. And if you're beamed up enough, then you know that it was a fund

up time. And but you're still you know, I think most people understand the best man one Um and Andre, certainly early days, you know, because what what who are the leaders of sports? Their politicians? Right? So they get up and again you know he deserves to be a raised off that. You know. Okay, that's fine, But guess what I've hung in there? You know what all you know what never lies, Chris, because it caught up to me at one point in my life. You know, it

never lies. History never lies. History never lies. History always makes things right. And so I don't I don't need Um. I don't need the tour to call me back and say, you know what, we feel like history is gonna make this right. Let's give you if I could move my UM zoom camera and it might be fun. At the end of the interview, I'm in my office here and ask them. Down street from the house, there's seven yellow

jerseys hanging on the wall. I haven't. I don't hang cycling stuff anywhere, but I hung I'm here in the office. Nobody came to get him. No organizer, no governing body, none of my peers came to pick them up. So I didn't race to go down in record books are on Wikipedia pages. I raced for myself because it was my job. I raced from my memories and I raised for my team, and nobody can take those from me, and so I I am. And I also don't want to get in the camp of you know, uh well

there has to be a winner. Of course, you know, normally there does have to be a winner. It is what it is. And UM, I just trust because it caught up with me. I trust that ultimately, UM, the history will set the record straight. Yeah, I'll get personal

for a second here. The day that that the postal service team rides into Paris of the shops, so they say, in front with you in yellow jersey the first year you wanted UM, no one more you've been UM knowing the part that cancer played in my life and and so many others that are around you. UM is an unforgettable experience. I mean, and that happened. It can't be erased.

It was there, I felt it, and and for you when you think back of whether it's those moments with the team and the bus, the moments on the mountain,

those moments in the shops. So they say, I mean, are those the same kind of powerful memories and just as sweet And there's no yeah, but attached to it, right, Yeah, there's no yeah, but yeah it was it was those are those are amazing memories and and an amazing friendships forged and and still you know, all of which very very strong except for two uh to today and so um yeah, those the guys you go to war with and and and and interestingly enough, because when I raised

you know, I didn't know that. I I just sort of pretended that I hated my competitors, like I hate that guy, I go kick his ass, you know that pretend because I want to ask you. I'm gonna I want to get to the Jana story, your man rival, because those emotions are powerful. That's very recent. But you always fostered the idea that to bring the best out of yourself, you had to hate that son of a bit. Only at any athletes have done that. That was These

guys were like a plus human beings, you know. They were like great sons and and and amazing fathers and kids and great neighbors, and and I was like, yeah, they suck, you know. I mean that was just I don't know, we were just getting them. It was all made up in my own head. And look it worked. But it's been fun and and and frankly just been incredible to get to know a lot of these guys as as just former competitors. And of course Joan Is is the greatest example, and Jean was also the one.

I mean I didn't really truly want to hate John, like it was a part of he was like, man, if I love this guy because he wakes me up early and he makes me train hard and I'm scared to death as motherfucker. Um, I just uh, but mostly the others and I just kind of created it. Um, but great memories. Great. You know, I'm the an al rics story. Um. If you don't know cycling, it's a long, complicated one. Let's just say he was a legend. He on the tourt fronts before you came along. Uh, he

was always your main rival. He came second a few times, and then he he ran into some very very difficult times and um, he had his own um doping situation to deal with. He wasn't able to deal with as well as as you did. Frankly, I'm just gonna step back and say that you know, he he had complicated problems, talked about his depression, his addiction. You recently had an encounter with him. The lance and emotions came out of you that people are not used to seeing. Maybe you're

not used to feeling them. What was it that was so powerful about that reunion with the guy who was your main rival years later. Well, we had we've had a couple of we've kept in touch and um, you know, I think really before I get into the two specific um sort of rendezvous that we've had, you know, he I just said it. I mean he was This was a man who scared the living ship out of me. There was no other guy in the peloton that I said, Man, I think that guy can beat me. No, John Ulrich,

I knew could beat me. Like he just pure pure talent. He he was a beast and so he scared me, and he motivated me, and I trained so hard. And he didn't have that that d NA like he knew he had talent, but he also knew he liked to have fun. And you know, he could fall back on the talent. I had talent, but I was like, man, I better I better triple down on this talent here, because this guy is coming for me, and this guy

can easily beat me. And so it was just a reverend and a respect for him as as competitors that I had. And then, you know, we both had very similar downfalls. He of course had some doping issues and and he could not that we and then we both had this fall from grace Johan and and I don't think I'm speaking out of turn here, Jan would agree with us. He could not handle that and it led him down a path that was so dark. And when I say dark, I mean very very dark. Um and

Jan lost everything. And and you know that my first to reconnection was with him was when I a few of his friends. I mean we were getting and now looking back on it, I think we know more. We were truly getting to the end of his life and something had to happen. There had to be some intervention. And so some of his best buddies that were normal guys. You know, I finally had some normal dudes in his life, like guys that didn't want him for his money or

his fame is whatever. They just called me the Baldinger brothers um Um from Amerdic in Germany. They called me to said Lance, you gotta come m hm. And you were the one they felt could could pull them out of it, even though it had been kind of an interesting relationship. You you kept in touch from Afar, but they you were the one they felt we could come rescue this guy. We didn't keep in touch at all. We when I went to see him at a at

a so called rehab facility. Um, we hadn't seen each other, and I think it would be an interesting I mean, you know what they would what they told me, and maybe this is the story. They had tried everything. I tried old teammates, they had tried old sponsors, they had tried old friends, and Jehan just pushed them away, pushed them away, push them away in their minds. Um. You know that reverence and that fear and that respect I had for him he also had for me, And so

they wanted to use that card. They said, you're the only guy that can scare him, You're the only you. You have to And I said I'll be there to Mark. I got on airplane, flew over there and we surprised him and it was just and and you know, I give a ton of credit to the ball Nikker brothers and the and the true friends that he finally had around him. But we got him on this path. And man,

he's been sober two or three years now. He is training, he's back in his kids lives and and it's just been and you know, it got covered and you're asking me about it. It got covered. I don't need to talk about that. I mean, I I would have I would have done that if if nobody ever knew. He

was so special to me. And and to now hear him and I just saw him gosh a month ago in my Orca when I was over there and we had him on our podcast to hear him talk about how close he was to death and and and and frankly, he looked like he was close to death when I went over there years ago, two or three years ago. I've never seen a human being like that, Right, We all like to go out and have some cocktails and

some guys get sucked up like, well, he's sucked up. No, no, no, You've never seen a human This is like an alien. It's scared the living ship out of me. Chris and Uh. I left thinking, man, I don't know, and boy, it shows you as strong he is. I mean, he pulled out of it and he is rocking. I listened to the the man. You guys are hanging out. He's talking about how healthy he is, how he's he's sober, he's riding the bike, he's doing well. I mean, it's a it's

a pretty miraculous comeback. And to think that you had a role in that, I mean, he had to do it himself, but you had a role in that, providing the spark in an impetus. Um. A movie should be done about this, and it probably will be down the line, but what what kind of feelings are that bringing you to see where he is now? And and it's it's it's um, it's it's the it's the greatest comeback I've ever seen. And then we've seen and you know, and not so much in the sports comeback just didn't light

like this. You're counting yourself on that, well, I Chris, I saw the man I saw three years ago, and Yahn confirmed it just when we were with him. He said, you know, he referenced another one of our great competitors are great Piers Marco Pantani. He said, I was on the path of Pontani. The next stop was death and and unfortunately for Marco. You know, nobody could could have you know, could could have stepped in there for him,

and he died. Um. But uh, yeah, it's it's it's part of the I don't want to go too deep and project here of his part of it because you saw him, and there were parallels in your story and and and you were both canceled in in your own ways, and yet you found the strength and you had the support, you said, the loving family to not go down that path. It was part of what you were feeling and seeing. Jeez, you know that could have been me. Of course it

was different. Yeah, and and and also um, a fair amount of of of just frustration with because so many of our generation were um lived through the same situation that he and I lived. We made those choices on the bike. We were caught. And as as I suppose, as is the case in society, they get the top guy and and cancel him, destroy him, try to intentionally destroy him, shame him, embarrass him, totally fuck him, and

everybody else gets covered. And this is the thing in in in Baigali is the same thing happened with Pantani. It's the same thing to have with Vanderberg. It's the same thing to happen with him. And as you can go across the country's every country has one. And it's just it's just I get so frustrated, because yes, if people Lyne and I get caught, you gotta pay the consequences.

But when you see the real effect ian you can ban somebody, you can do whatever you want to do, but when they're on death door, fuck it, man, we've gone too far. And that happened to Marco, and it happened to him, and it and having a bandever, and it almost happened to on the one guy that I that that I held higher than anybody else. They almost killed him. Because now there's a lot of ways to look at this. He was not equipped to handle the downfall.

But but the double standard and the hypocrisy and all of it, it just makes me so you know, I still get mad. You can hear it in my voice. And we're dealing with we're dealing with human beings and you're in some of them are not equipped and so but god, dang, you know, he made it out. It's a happy ending, you know it. But it's a happy chapter right now anyway, Yes, yeah, And I think Jahan's committed, and he sends me literally there are days I wake

up on WhatsApp. I have forty five messages, four or five four five messages. He's just the happiest guys like, Hey, I'm on a ride, Hey my kids, Hey I'm in the swimp. Hey I'm the gym. Guys sending me pictures of him in the gym without his shirt on. I'm fifty years old. I don't give a shirt about raising y'all. Olrick. I see him in the gym with his shirt off, I'm like, fuck, I gotta get in the gym, like it's still the fire is still there? What I do?

Hear anger in your voice. I know that anger doesn't dominate your life. But what brings you joy these days? What gets you up and meets in the most joy? I mean, I know you have the five kids, so that's kind of a given, but what else they're They're amazing. I love working. I'm i um. I don't like zoom, although I love I love chatting with an old body like you over zoom. But this whole zoom quote. You know,

so I work a lot. You know, I started in early days venture fund when of my partners know when he's strong with Julian Eisen, we're out investing in health and wellness. I create content like that podcast all over the place. Um it, I love you and I and I referenced it earlier. But and I stopped short of even saying it's enough. People have granted me permission to move forward. And I'm not saying it's a thousand people or a billion people. I don't know, it doesn't matter.

But and I'm I'm super humble and so damn appreciative of this that I have been given the opportunity to move forward. And it's incredible. And and that's fun. I mean that is has a hell of a lot more fun. You know. People love to think about retiring and I'm gonna go play golf all the time my buddies, and I'm gonna take it. They get back that I did that when I was in time out. It ain't that fun.

Playing offense and hustling and moving forward. Now that's fun. Yes, you can still go do all those little fun things, but on no way, that's not for me, you still have fun while you're doing it. And your podcast, The Move cover cycling races, you're right back in at you guys who previews, you do, wrap ups, you do during

the event reports. I mean you seem you seem to love it, whereas a lot of people when they were done with the sport, and it was a sport that was that intense and that consuming and ended in its one ugly way, the last thing you want to do is watch a bike race. I'm talking about the bike racers. But we but we have we did we did it

in a different way. I mean, if if the format of the show was Okay, Chris a kilometer thirty two, Chris Room got a flat tire and a kilometer, Uh, you know, so and so went off the fuck that we're we're way more bar stool. It's like, well, you know, it's myself and my old side kicked the greatest teammate of all time Georgine Cappy and our co host JB. Hagar, and we just take an air reverend view. It's a suit.

We are not that because one of the by products of the whole meltdown was I don't work for anybody. I work for myself and we thank god we live in a generation where you can actually create content on your own. Well, look, we have you and I have a couple of bikes. You're gonna put this up on iTunes and Spotify or whatever. YouTube. Hello, that wasn't very hard. So we can really do whatever we want to do and we have fun with it. And it's just that part's easy. And this is uh played on out for

a couple more decades. This is what you You're doing what you want to do? Are there other chapters I've thought of? I thought about it because you know, at fifty year, like right on the right on the border, you're like, yes, you're starting to be an old man, but you still feel like is it that entertaining when I'm seventy? Like if you if you see you spit out seventy like I mean, as someone who's gonna turn sixty next August, don't you know? Don't don't act like

fifty is like the beginning of the end. No, it's but I have Can I ask you one question because I've I've been thinking a lot about this. Yeah, is it me or in broadcast? You know, I'm talking about the big sports primarily football, college football? Or are they just hiring guys that either sound like you collins Worth and Nance or something all of these I'm like, every time I hear a guy, I'm like, is that that's not valor they're all trying to say. I think they don't.

I don't know it. They're hiring you should just be yourself, right, no matter what. They send these guys home and they go listen to Fouler and just sound like him. Right, Well, I don't know. I mean, did you ride a bike like somebody else when you get into this, whatever your field is. I always telling young people we're seeing you just how to imitate and it's normal to pick up on stuff like that and you queue it subconsciously, but

you don't go out and try to imitate somebody. And that's just what I tell young people who want to do whatever for a living. So I worked out for you and now they're yeah, I just it's an observation. I've head, lady, I want the listeners. Next time you're watching, just just close your eyes and one is enough. My wife would say, um, you know that that that sixteen year old kid that that was in plain Now, I mean we talked about having a sense that maybe something

was gonna happen, but you didn't know what. Now that all this has happened, I asked this question everybody because it's something I think about myself. What would you tell him to get ready for? What would you tell him, Hey, have skill ready, do this, don't do that? And and me telling them knowing knowing how to play as you said that right now, Um, we've covered a lot of it.

I mean, if you could just and this is just, if I could reflect on my me reflecting on my life and what I wish I could have appreciated or or learned or gleaned, that's the same thing as what you would tell this kid. Um, you try to slow it down. Um, UM understand you know, whatever whatever stage you get to, right you could be the star high school quarterback. When you know what that's like. When you're the you're a five star quarterback and every little kid

in that town is looking at you. They're all looking at you. Understand what that means. Understand the way to that, the responsibility of that, and in everything you do, whether it's what you think, say or do. UM, never lose sight of that. And I lost sight of it. Um and um, you know, I think you know, the one thing I did um perhaps not failing. I mean I was very as you know, I was very, very close to my mother and I'm still very close to her.

And I've had those consistent themes in my life. I think for any young kid that is, especially if you're gonna get big, because man that all these pretenders, imposers and phonies are gonna come. They're there And and Jana is a great example. Right at the end of the day, at the end of what was almost the end of his life, he had his true, true friends. And we

see it all the time in Sport. And so UM, I think to me, is if and I'm still looking for that holy grail of slowing things down and appreciating things, but slow it down, capture the moment, and fully understand just how powerful you are. I mean when I think of my story, and I was powerful, I mean I could I could, you know, should I ask President Bush for a billion dollars for the n C I you know, I mean, that's who does that. I didn't know. I mean the power that I had and abused, I didn't

know it. And it's a shame I'll never have that power again. UM. And I know that. I know that with certainty, and there is a part of me that that is extremely sad about that. But I can't change it. Um. But but I know now the power that I had and and that I abused, and so UM, that's that's that's a shame. You talked about all the people that come into your orbit and and that you've been lucky enough to to observe and get to know and and

learn from. I mean, just the amount of wisdom, amount of talent, the amount of um kind of loo men as people that that kind of came through your orbit and that and that sometimes it was a blur or

sometimes you didn't appreciate it. But do you sit back now, I mean, you've got a pretty impressive group of people that you can draw upon, that you continue to say, in touch with because of those days on the bike, in those days, UM as a symbol of cancer survivorship, I tell you, I And it's a great it's just great timing. Actually it's a great question. But it's also impeccable timing. I don't know. I was reading an article the other day about Steve Jobs and there was some mention,

and I had spent time. I had shared space with Steve Jobs as he was not well, and I supposed he wanted to be with me because I was the cancer guy and he had his affinity for a second, but we we I shared space with this man, and it was it was super intense. I was super nervous, as you would be at Apple HQ and and and and I look back on that and I think, man, that was so. I I'm reading this article just last week, and there was something they had alluded to, a documentary

called The Lost Interview. Have you have you seen? I heard of the Lost in so that it's from the interview, and and snippets of it were used more broadly, so some of the very small snippets. It's about an hour and fifteen minutes long. And after the stuff was that they lost the master tape and I want everybody listening to tonight to watch this documentary. So and he dies in two thousand eleven, and they find the tape in two thousand twelve, and they release it in its entirety

now and I watched it three days ago. In two thousand twenty one, Steve Jobs did the interview heat perfectly predicts the future. You have to everybody listening must watch. It's on Apple TV and Amazon. I think he predicts Amazon, he predicts Facebook, he predicts Apple. Every thing it is one And so as I watched it, I was like, and it was. And then he talks a lot about the bike. He's clearly one of the smartest human beings that ever lived. It's called the Steve Jobs The Lost Interview.

It's an hour and fifteen minutes long. It is so special and just watching this and going, man, I shared space with this guy, like I had no fucking idea, and and well you see stuff like that and you're just like, God, if you can't go back, and you can't. We can't bring him back to life. But hard, hard, very very hard for me to watch, but but also so incredible. Hard for me to watch because I knew the man and I and I don't get more time with him, and I perhaps didn't cherish it the way

that I should have. But it it's it's it's one of the best things I've seen maybe forever. That's a strong endorsement. Will I will check it out. No, it's it's I'm not saying you're seeing jobs. But there might be people who say, hey, us and I shared space, really and so I'm strong. I got a chance to talk to him, I gained strength from him, and regardless of whatever happened and canceled or not, in their minds, you played a role in that. And there's there's plenty

of people. Do you do you view that as an important part of your legacy, something palpable that that maybe you provided hope, strength belief in a moment for someone that that might have made a difference. Totally, yeah, I don't. I don't minimize that at all. I don't. UM. I'm aware of the stats. I'm aware of, you know, what lives Strong did. I'm aware of the amount of money we raised, the amount of lives we impacted. That's not lost on me. I I I think that stays in

my chest, like that's I'm not giving that up. UM. I do a lot less of it now. UM, but I but I but to think the reality is I do it, and so I do virtually almost everything I'm asked to do. UM, It's on a much smaller level. But that's okay. You know, I when I look at you know, my score board up there, it's pretty good. And and if it's just a personal reach out once

a day or once a week, hey, that's great. That's a win and and and um, and it still makes me feel special and and and hopefully it's uh it makes others feel special. But uh, it's just it's a different view, right, is what we've been talking about for an hour, Like it's just really understanding. Like I send somebody a letter in two thousand and five, Hey, get well soon, buddy. Yeah, I mean they loved it. Um, but when I and I did you a great thing is now you live in the society. You just you

don't write them letters anymore. Grab your grab your phone. You make them a video. They're gonna lose the letter. They're gonna the video. Hey, they show all their buddies. Hey, look who sent me this, and they have it forever. And so I love just staring in the lens of that. Um. And just you know, I wish for my best Well, thanks for sharing on this lens. Uh for a last hour. It's been You've been generous, man. I you know, I when you know somebody really well and you've known him

through all the chapters. Um, sometimes it doesn't flow. Sometimes you're not sure where this is going to go. Sometimes it could be a discomfort about taking into place. And and thanks for being so freaking honest and and and so generous. The only way to do it now, let's do it in person. Let's forget the lens and I'll I'll find each other in the mountains one of these years. Yeah, And I just want to say to anybody listening, this man on the other end, your your host has been

a one of the most amazing friends to me. And uh, you know it, Uh, it's sort of one of the greatest gifts. Ship goes down, people lean out, people leaning it breaks your heart when they lean out, the when they lean in, it's the greatest gift of all time. And this man, Chris Fowler, is one of those guys. And so there's and there's many many others. But it's also just such an educational journey and such just such

a lesson And so Chris for that, thank you. Sorry to get emotional, um, but man, you've you've been there through thick and thin um and then by the way two times. And I haven't just put you through one ship show. I put you through too, because you were there when I was sick and then I had. Then I just doubled down and give you another one. But shows are always worth it. Loyal loyalty is the most powerful thing there is. We're both gonna get choked up

an emotional the end of this. Oh my god, people listening there. I appreciate that. Powerful means a lot. Yeah, thanks pretty well for me. That was a conversation worth waiting for. I hope you enjoyed it. Landskips very few media interviews, has very few podcasts these days, so I'm grateful for his time, his candor, and his French It. Check out both of Lance's own podcasts, The Forward and

The Move, which is a must for cycling fans. As always, appreciation to my co executive producer Jennifer Dempster and Jason Whitehell for his edny skills. All of us appreciate your feedback. Chris follower dot com is the website at Chris Foler on Instagram. If you have any comments, write you to subscribe and I'll talk to you soon.