DORIS BURKE AND HOLLY ROWE

acclaimed and respected in their roles as anyone. Writing Shotgun in the Little Rental Car is Doris Burke, the first female analyst for NBA games and first to call men's n ci A tournament games. For years, Doris also covered the Women's Championships and w n b A. Behind the wheel is Holly Row, my colleague and primetime college football broadcast,

the National Championship Game and Heisman Trophy Show. When he's not working Utah Jazz games or the w NBA, Holly has covered just about everything in college sports over the last thirty years. So today I've got Doris Burke and Holly Row together and this is one of the most enjoyable conversations in our five seasons. A window into their friendship and achievements. It's like sitting in the back seat on one of their road trips. Well, Doris and Holly, I am so pleased to have us merged together on

this call. Two broadcast icons are not only massively respected by the people they cover, who are the highest achievers, most successful people in sports, but also beloved by them, which is a difficult thing and a different thing. So what's that like, Holly, to be beloved by the people that you cover? Because I don't know that you don't know that feeling. I don't know that I'm beloved. I think people are very kind, and I think I've been

doing it a long time. I think I learned. Uh, someone said something really sweet to me when I was going through my battle with cancer that, um, you've been coming into our living rooms. You've been a guest in our home for over twenty years, so of course we love you. So I thought that was a sweet way to say it is we're a guest in people's homes. Um, So I think that's part of it. But then I

think you do go into respect. I always would feel so secretly pleased every time Doris was doing you know, the postgame championship, NBA Finals and Lebron's like, you know, well, Doris, you know, the highest of the high love and respect her and that always made me feel so proud. So I think it's just a lot of hard work and being good at your job where people respect your work ethic, but also having a good way about you. Chris can I can I tell a story that will documented exactly

how beloved Holly row is this come back always. But Gail Guest and Corps at the time was the head coach at Duke and she has been a multiple final four. She's experiencing all kinds of success. And you know how it goes. You're you guys go to football practice, we

go to basketball practice. I'll never forget this. The three of us are standing at mid court and Holly's relative not new to women's basketball because she had covered the w NBA should cover, but new to like covering the final four, and Gail is going to be in the final four. This you know, this is happening. And I don't remember what month it is, but I remember distinctly Holly looking Gail Guest in course directly in the Ian, saying to her, now, Gail, have you always been a

control freak? And Gail's even a colored drain from it. I don't know which way to run, and all of a sudden just the three of us burst out laughing. I have witnessed so many times over the years, Chris. They they love and respect that people have for not only Holly's work habits, but her passion for both the sports that she covers and the individual stories, um that she covers. And I think people can feel that, and I think they really appreciate that about Holly. Well, they

appreciate that about YouTube doors. That's kind of you to say that about your friend. But I mean, whether it is Lebron or Papovitch or Kobe, the legends of coaching, that the highest basketball minds out there, they respect you. That's hard one. We'll get into that for both of you. But also the affection whether it's Drake or anybody else, I mean big stars, not just athletes and coaches. I mean that has to feel pretty darn good. Yeah, you know, um, Chris,

I remember saying this before. Um, Holly and I were both established in our careers prior to the advent of social media, and it hasn't always been the case that you know this, There's been this feeling towards me. There was a long stretch of time where because I was an analyst on men's college and the NBA. There was this sentiment coming at me about who is she to say that she's never played or coach these sports. Obviously

I coached women's basketball, played women's basketball. Um, and I've said this many times to the player in the coaches because they have been my soft landing spot. Chris and I've said this, and I said it to Drake Um when I finally met him after he put that picture on his shirt. You know, I said, I really appreciate that you expressed in your own way respect for my work. When you hear something's forign to your ear, what's your first response? We all pulled back from something's different. We

don't know what this is, what to expect. And when I started, it was unusual, where now it's it's commonplace. Do you like how she just dropped that in there, like, you know, when I was talking to Drake, like it's just such a normal women crush every day. By the way, with a big face of Doris Burke, I'm surprised you haven't come up with your line of merchandise there with

your face on. I do want to tell you one funny story, So I want to give my son mckaylan, who um, he is the one person in the world that adores Doris more than maybe her own children. So my son has been visiting miss Burke since he was fifteen years old, and he wore this Drake. Sure he did a post on social media coming into Doris Brooke's house for Thanksgiving like in any tax drink, and the very next week Drake posted about Doris. So I just

want mkaylan to get a little credit doors. I just think he opened up the Drake floodgates a little bit. I mean, you guys, you know, not exactly overnight successes racing around the basis to universal applause and the claim. I mean it has been Um, it has been a struggle.

Doris talked about it. Holly. You come into a variety of sports, but college football might be one of the most I don't know, macho masculine, testosterone driven sports there is, right, and it's a sport not widely played by women, So you can understand if some neagraaphal mindsets are carrying the day early on. But but talk about just going into to this sport and having to win respect and show

you know what you're talking about. Yeah, I had a couple of funny incidents early in my career, and um, I'll tell this story about this coach, but I don't want him to be disparsed. Remember my first feeling of I'm the woman in the meeting room was with an old defensive coordinator at Mississippi State named Jolie Dunn, and I asked a question based on a quote I had read from him, and he kind of looked up, like what and and then he answered to Rodney Gilmore and

he wouldn't even look at me. I could just tell he was so uncomfortable for me to be in the room and talking and he would look away and answer someone else. So fast forward twenty years, and you know, Jolie Dunn and I are fast friends, and and every stop he's been at he comes and chats with me and we talk about his extensive video collection and his family and him, you know, him helping to create the

the unique defense with five defensive bats. Um. So, I feel like those are the types of stories where they go in feeling like who's this? But you earn your way by being good at your job. I've asked plenty of dumb questions, but I think people know my desire, and I think they start to learn I'm obsessed with college football. Like if I wasn't a woman, I would probably be at the highest level of being an analytic.

No one has watched more college football other than maybe you and Kirk Herb Street, and in my lifetime, I can talk to you about label edwards. Um, all of the coaches that started that offense that then became the air raid offense, and how that happened with Don Kriel and then Mike Tleach stole the bay you passing around. I know how the zone read was invented. You know, like I know all this this information because I've lived college football for forty years now at the very most

intense scrutiny level. So um, I feel like I've just earned it by people understand I'm obsessed with football and I can speak their language. So we can ask a trivia question every week in the booth, and Kirk and I were something how they knew the answer in the field. I wish you just buzzed in from the field because you could have saved our team to answer Chris Felika's trivia question, right, Doris, You know, there are just certain moments as a viewer, particularly a woman viewer, where it's

really poignant. And for me, the moments where I see Holly row Say interview Nick Saban or Dabbo and it maybe a tough moment, and yet they stop, they take the time and they respectfully answer questions that sometimes aren't easy to answer or uncomfortable, and uh, you know, I'll go back to another moment. And there's some women in the business who are on the text Chaine Jasmindoza Holly Beth moments, the first time Beth moments called Monday Night Football.

I remember this distinctly. I am in my home in Rhode Island and tears are streaming down my face because you couldn't be more right, Chris. Football to me, whether it's college football or the NFL, are two most popular sports in this country. When women achieve a measure of success in those particular fields of endeavor, it is so powerful to me. Um and it's just, you know, it's just for me. It's beautiful and it's fun. And then it's like, oh, my goodness, where is that next generation

of women going to take us? Because you know what, what I admire about this next generation that Holly and I have spent our career and I kid you not, we talked about this all the time. We have spent our career thinking every year, this is our last. They're not going to give us another one. We're done, this is my last gig. And the next generation of women just know they belong um. There's no I don't know.

I don't know whether like not that they don't face challenges, but there's a level of confidence to me that I just love about the women coming coming that are a little younger than us. I definitely want to circle back to that and the legacy that both you guys believe in the impact that you've had. Longevity is interesting, I don't think because you've both been asked about that, But longevity in this business doesn't happen, in my opinion, unless you just love the process. It can't just be about

when the lights on, the games are going on. And both of you guys just divide our the process practices. You talked about that, Holly. The meetings are reading, watching tape. People don't know what goes into it. But I don't think if you don't embrace that part of it, we're not sitting here talking about decades of a career, right, Yeah, you have to love it. And and you know, I've

had an interesting experience with Doris. We went to the London Olympics together in twelve as fans and it was so fun because we went to almost all the basketball We went to t m USA. That was the was that the Redeemed team Doris with Lebron and Kobe. I think that's the one they were just doing the documentary about, right, I think so. I remember us seeing Lebron on the subway platform in London, remember that, and fans are just

mobbing in and we were like, what's up man? Hy But um the you know, I just think that the where we were sitting there watching games and Doris just loses herself in the basketball and it's like my friends gone, She's not there. She is so into basketball, and I keep I just never forget that that's her happy place. And it's the same way with football and Chris, I know for you for tennis, of like I get so

lost in the action. I've seen my friend get so lost in the action that I know that's her happy place. That's my happy place. So it's the thing I'm most proud of in my career. To be perfectly honest with you, Chris, is the longevity. Um. You know, I started in a very small way when I left coaching, and I often joked like one of my biggest breaks is doing the w n b A on radio for the New York Liberty.

There wasn't a person listening, not one. But I love the process because the travel, you know, being alone in the hotels and dinners on the rush and this and matter. If you don't love it, you're not gonna last because you're away from your family. I have two children, Um, I now have a grandson. Like Christmas Day will remain hard. Christmas Eve. I just booked my flight to Boston. Um, so there are challenges, but it is it's the love of sports that you cover and the people you cover.

I mean, think about it. Think about some of the college football games Holly row has has had the opportunity to cover, really national championships, Alabama's run, you know, so many different things. We are really as much as I just talked about some of the hard things, I think we both know how incredibly lucky we are to do what we do every day. Yeah, Doris, you took it the next place I wanted to go, Holly, which was the championship moments, and and that's why we love what

we do. And you guys have both had extraordinary opportunities and done tremendous jobs at at being the first to speak to someone who was won a championship was realized.

A dream has having a life moment, and it's still very fresh and there you are with the microphone capturing it and navigating through it, whether it's a trophy of presentation in the NBA or or or on the field that a college football championship, or or a Women's College World Series or w n B A talk about that just being right there and and and feeling the energy

sort of at the end of a championship arc. It's precious, right, like we have the best seed in the house to a very precious moment that will last in time forever. I remember interviewing steps And Bennett after the Georgia National Championship game last year and and his emotion and he had been sobbing on the sidelines, and just um interviewing that young man. I remember interviewing Hunter Renfro from Clemson after he catches the touchdown pass with one second left

to upset Alabama. You know, before it was even imaginable that Clemson could upset Alabama, and um one of my

favorite postgame moments ever. And I think if people really studied this as journalist, my favorite moment I've ever seen was when Lebron had made the decision to go to Miami and all of the scrutiny that came for that, and Doris interviewed him post game, and it will to me be the single best question that's ever been asked any postgame ever because in in two two words, you know, to two sentences, Doris wraps up leaving Cleveland making the

decision vindication to win a championship with Miami in this one postgame question, and I think it will go down as the best question ever asked in sports history. Do you remember that question, Doris? I don't. I don't. I mean, I remember all of my interviews with Lebron because they've

been so pivotal. Holly, I'll never Chris. You know, we're supposed to be impartial on biased observers, and we are, but at the same time, we are not emote, emotionless human beings, and this is not the question Holly's talking about. But when when Lebron went back to Cleveland and won the title, if you remember distinctly, as soon as the buzzer sounded, he had this well of emotional he started to cry. And see Holly picked up on this, Mike greenstat guy Dave Free picked up on this, but very

few people picked up on it. You know, you have to remember, I have children right in the window of these NBA players in terms of their age, and so it's interesting for me because sometimes I view it through the prism of my twenty eight year o son. You know, it's weird because he's not you know, his seasoned golf as his profession, but whatever. But but I remember watching Lebron cry. Chris and Holly. I don't know if this has ever happened to you. I would assume it is

because you are carrying emotional person. But like Chris, when Lebron cried and he's shuddering and he's down on his knees, I got choked up, like I can feel the water in my eyes, and I'm thinking, oh my God, pull yourself together. You gotta ask questions, and you could hear my voice crack and whatever question I asked, and Dave Free was the first person to set at my green stacks. Were you crying? I said, I didn't cry, that's the personal crying of basketball. But I was. And it was

really just about this man. This meant so much to him. All of us, know, anybody who covers sports. There is injury, there is sadness, there's joy, there's collective spirit moving towards this ultimate goal. But you pay a heavy price to get there, and sometimes that bears down on you in the in the midst of that, Holly, have you ever had that happen where you you've gotten caught up in the emotion. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I'm not always proud of it because you're You're right, we're trying to

be unbiased journalists, but I am. You know me, I'm a softie, and I've had it happened a couple of times where, Um, I can remember Pat Summit had died and Candice Parker, her beloved player for the Tennessee Balls, was playing in a w NBA game that night. Has a tough comeback when and I interviewed Candice in the post game and she just breaks down sobbing. Um, you know that was for Pat. That was for Pat, and that that got to me because Pat Summitt had just

died that day, and that one was really tough. I don't think human if you do not feeling that. I mean, we do this because we like human beings immediately, like the competition in the strain, and we all like the collective joy. But the other side that I'm talking about, old Softie, I find myself being upset for the losers, the people on the other end of this. They're not

holding the trophy. They had their dreams crushed, and it's it's it's also fresh in the moment and whether it's in tennis, and yeah, you've seen I've covered Serena Williams

great moments. I've covered some heartbreaking moments. Same thing for Roger Feder Rafael on the doll And you have a feeling for these people because, like Lebron, you've seen a lot of their arc You've seen them kind of grow up and mature and man, I don't know, Yeah, I've had to try to hold it together, not just for the joy, but just the pain on the other side of it when they they come short of their dream. Yeah, we're human, right when Super just retired. I really struggled.

If you know me well and you go back and listen to our interview, you can hear my voice. I am struggling to interview her because I'm I turned to look at Sue and she has a tear coming down her face and she's like, this is really sad, and I just I'm like, yes it is. I'm glad I wasn't in London when Roger Federer just retired, because he's crying, the dolls crying, everybody's cry. I don't think I would

have been able to keep it together. So I'm kind of relieved they didn't have that assignment in some way. You know, the the love of sports can can be passed down by generations. It can skip a generation. My parents didn't know where I care about sports at all. My grandmother was the one who got me into it. I owe my career to her love and passion for sports. So you guys have referenced being moms. I wonder do

your kids share your passion for sports? Do you talk sports with them or is it like mom, that's just mom's work. We're over three. We're over three in that category. Her two children and my son, no, really, there's anything wrong with that, Not that there's anything wrong with that. My son's an actor in the theater, her daughter Sarah's in the theater as an attorney. Her son Matthews in the gulf. Like we're over three and it's hard, really, Doris,

you ever want to talk about nicole Yo kitchen? The inverted pick and roll? And there's just enough. So, Uh, my daughter, we joke all the time with her husband. She's like, pick and roll this, pick and roll that roll. My son is um a little more into it, you know, so he'll he might. It's but it's the tree top storylines you know that are being discussed on every talk show. Um, and that's the direction he and I will go. But

it's so funny, yuh Ali. You know, I keep saying to my daughter, who's just had her first baby, I'm like, you can expect one thing or another, but life is going to take you where it's gonna take you, and there's no predicting it, so be prepared. Well, maybe it's a grandmother. You can get that that young child into sports the way minded and give the great gift of understanding the passion and the joy of this profession. Oh,

I literally cannot wait. I can I have a baseball glove, I can catch, I can rebound with the best of them. Whatever Harris wants to do for I am there for him. Well, we're having this conversation because Holly and I had a dinner recently in Columbus on a nice Friday night dinner which doesn't happened and often enough. Well, start talking about traveling and Holly, you just mentioned that the two of

you travel together. Holly, and I don't know whether it is a film on Louise, which is a reference that only be able to a certain age to understand. I'm imagining these two badass women road tripping around Europe. But tell me, Holly, a travel story of you two guys, uh, you know, away from sports and just enjoying what the world has to offer. Yeah, we started traveling together about ten years ago, and we've had some really good, um journeys. I would say I have two really great I mean,

I have a lot of great memories. And this is kind of a fun thing because Doris keeps a journal everywhere we go. So we'll get to a new location and she'll buy a little notebook and so she has documented our meals are tours. Are you know We've gone on a mop head through Kianti and had a wine tour and then cooked at the end. Um we've we've gone. I'm trying to think of all the dramatic ones we've

gone to Normandy together. I think that was maybe one of our most powerful trips stories, if you would agree with that. I think that was maybe one of our most powerful moments, is walking up the hill in Normandy and just weeping at the cemetery. I thought that was a special moment. I remember a roundabout in Paris where

we were trying to I was driving. I have made the mistake of driving on many of these trips, and um, I remember us trying to get off that big famous roundabout in Paris and it took us like ten times. We're about ready to throw up because I can't merge over in the lane and We're going around this roundabout

and it's getting scary and I'm like how. And then there was the time that I was driving in Porto Fino down these you know, back and forth Italian cliffs while I was putting on the story Chris Falor because she's not going to do it justice so we're coming back from province. Holly wanted to see the lavender field. I can't even but I think you're right. It's a windy road and obviously you know the sidometer is in kilometers and all I know is that sucker is tilted

far right. Chris Fowler and anything those Holly row knows how much Muscara she puts on. He's got the thing full tilt to the right. And my girl is looking in the rear view mirror putting on m scara and I am losing my damn mind from a Scara two down and try. I could not believe what she was doing. I'll be damn that she didn't do it, Chris putting it on, going down the road. She's out of her mind, Holly.

She was right to correct me in that moment. I was inappropriate, and so she has a certain tone in her voice that when she uses it it scares me. And I knew in that moment I was in trouble. Um. But we've had some really great trips. I mean, we've gone to Capri, We've gone to Portofino, Positano, like London, like Como. Oh my gosh, Venice are are walking wine tour in Venice was one of my favorite. You know, we went to the local places and had grafa and

that was last. Um. My other favorite place we've gone, Doris was Most St. Michel off the coast of France, where it's his island out off the coast of France that when the tide comes in, you can't you couldn't access the island. And when the tide goes out, there was a walking road that you can walk out to the island and now they drive out to the island. And we stayed on that island Mont St. Michel, and that was one of the cooler nights I think we've

ever had, Doris. What do you think? Yeah, I agree? And what what amazed me about that experiences We're sitting, we're we're sort of on a ledge in this medieval type village, showed stone walls everywhere, and we're out looking at the water and we have been warren. You know, don't be on the flats there when the water comes in, Chris.

That water moves so fast that if you were not on dry land in a safe space, at a speed at which that water came into Mont St. Michel, and it's so funny because Mike Breen, obviously, you know, the great voice of the NBA Finals, um is, likes to travel and he had always tried or wanted to go to monts Michelle and couldn't believe we found a room there. Holly, I don't know how you did that. And then you

mentioned Normandy Chris. Um. For anybody that that enjoys history, UM, you know you hear all these stories about D Day.

We commemorated it every year. Um. When you see the topography there, when you are actually standing on the beach and then you tried to navigate your way up, you understand, um, what exactly happened on that particular day, and you marvel at the result of the Allies and they're just ire to to to conquer not only the topography, but to absorb the massive, massive losses that they did and continue on the journey to try to rescue you know, the world.

It really And then after you've seen the topography, you then go to the to the space that they have set aside for the fallen soldiers, and you know it's it is dead quiet, like it is so silent and respectful and somehow beautiful in this space. Um, I would encourage anyone who has the opportunity to go and to do that. It is one of the most memorable things I've ever experienced. Yeah, that's perfectly said covering the French shop.

And I've gone to Normandy a couple of times. And when you step away from the world of seeing a tennis ball smacked around at clay court and being absorbed in that silliness for a couple of weeks, and you you go to that that place, and I think that's the beauty of power of travel though you you have your spirit reawakened, you understand perspective and learned so much and am envious of all these trips you guys have taken. I mean, you clicked off some really beautiful spots around Europe.

And I'm curious because you guys are both such, you know, tremendous preparers and planners. I imagine you so organized, Holly, is every second of these trips choreographed and planned out? To a tea or you'd like to get away from that world and just kind of wing it when you

guys travel together. So we've done it both ways. Were early in our travels together, we made the mistake of over planning and hitting too many stops, and I remember I could, yes, I remember two times vividly Doris being like, all right, sister, I'm done with this. What the hell are you doing to me right now? Chinqui Terra? She was like we were on a train. I remember in Chinqua Terra and her just being like, I've seen enough,

stop it. And then I learned from that that we we hit too many spots, you know, in one trip, and so we've learned. So this last uh A summer ago we went to Greece and we only hit two spots. So we've learned as we've traveled. So we only did anthants in Santorini and we kind of stayed put. But we did it in a fun way. Why I like really traveling with Doris is when we laugh our ass off. I mean we laugh and laugh and laugh. Um. But two, she's interested in the world, and so like I would

give her an assignment. Hey, we're going to her cullennium. You're in charge of researching her cullennium, or I'm in charge of researching enormity, you know, so that that while someone's striving or while the person is going, you're you're reading to me or talking to me about what we're gonna see, where we're gonna go. So we tag team

at which I've had found very fun and interesting. Like she'll say, all right, you're in charge of three these two nights for dinner in in EA on Santorini, and so I find us a place there, or the other two nights she's got us a wine tour, and so we really tag team and it's awesome. Um, she talks, she journals everything. So I one day, well, we need to publish these journals Doors, because we've we've had some

interesting experiences. But then the other cool thing and we've done over the years that I thought was a good idea for travelers is when we start the trip, we'll put like two thousand euros in my Fannie pack and so we're not arguing over who's paying for dinner or who's paying for this taxi. We pool our our funds and then I just pay for everything out of the fanny. Like we've figured out some cool buddy system travel tips. Um, maybe in our old age, Doors, we'll have a show,

a travel show. I'd watched that show. Come on, do you guys talk sports at all or or sports totally off limits? Or is TV totally off limits? Is that not part of the vacations. We talked about everything, everything, men, um sports. I mean it's fun. Doors says this all the time that you know you can count on one hand the people you can truly trust in the TV business, and I think that we trust each other. So we do talk a lot about work and navigate in our workplace.

And hey, this happened to me. What do you think There's been many a late night I call her, this happened. What should I do? And She'll say, you can't say that. Stop it. You know, she's taken me off a couple alleges in my life. Um, but we talked about everything terms the Luxembourg garden story, Doris, Oh my god, that was one of the hardest times I have ever laughed in my life, and for for the longest duration. Now listen, Chris, I'm gonna just I'll start the story and she can

finish it. So we're in the Luxembourg gardens and uh, this is a rare time that we well, we didn't even plan that we were going to stay put for so long, but on every single trip we take, we have we go in with an idea of there's going to be a cocktail that is essentially the theme of the trip, and in France it was the care Royale for for obvious reasons. Champagne is never a bad idea. And if you want to spruce it up with a

little raspberry, look for that's okay. And so we order a cure Royale because there's a beautiful cafe in the middle of the garden and it's it's massive and beautiful and there are people everywhere doing their thing, walking, babies with strollers, couples hand in hand, you name it. We order a cure Royale. Off comes the waiter. About ten minutes later, would you ladies like another? And I mean, we don't have missed a beat, of course, and existing lin however, he says it in this French accent, I

won't even try. But he said, perhaps you should order the bottle. He did and it wasn't one. How do you speak French? You probably did the ordering on that trip. I did. Um well, I mean you, guys, I appreciate and enjoy both of your persona's on the air and Holly, I obviously no from working doors, I don't know the last time we were in the same building. But I imagine that this is a great collaboration traveling and just in general and as a friendship because you aren't the

same Doris. You have a kind of a Northeast can I say, g I mean kind of that that person Holliday like the dead mother to all of color sports? Is it a nice mix? But contrast to personalities in this friendship and your conversations in your travels, Doris, what how do you have me saved in your phone? That might explain it? Oh my gosh, this is perfect. Glinda, you are you familiar? Yes, the good witch and the good which from wicked, the happy, the always upbeat. Um.

You know, she's just such a good spirit. I've said this before and and you know this, Chris, you know the chemistry can't be seged. A good broadcast team hits the listener's ear easy, Um, and you you can't manufacture it. It exists or it does not. And part of what makes a great team is, Yes, you have to have people who know what they're doing and know what's important in the telecast, but you also have to have great teammates.

It's about teammate skills. You know, the viewer doesn't know how many people contribute to your Saturday college football telecast. You have the best of the best in positions across the board, camera, takeum, on air, talent, producer, director, you name it, and every single one of those people has to do their job well. And if one falls short at some point, maybe the viewer doesn't feel it, but you all will step off as telecast and got maybe

we could have done this or that better. What I've always appreciated about Holly is I think she's one of the best teammates I've ever had in a telecast. It's about what is good for the broadcast, and and if she expresses frustration, it's from a good place because she wants the viewer to feel as we feel so fortunate to be watching UM and so it's so interesting people perception of me. I think Holly would tell you, like you said, edgy, I find that hysterical because I feel

like I'm the nicest person in the world. Oh no, I'm not saying that. Edgy doesn't mean not nice. It just means you're book Providence Northeast. It's just a different it's a different place than Utah, I don't know. I'm not offended, Chris. I actually it's just so funny, right, And this goes to what Holly said about we come into your living rooms, but you never know how the viewer is feeling you or accepting you, or whatever the

case may be. And I think all of us, you know, regardless of what anybody says, every announcer wants to be like, yes, you want to be highly competent, and not everybody, you know, not every announcer is for everybody. I know, I have my favorites. You probably have your favorites that you enjoy listening to. But yeah, absolutely Edgy's a Jersey girl. Yeah, I understand. I've been called I've been called overly intense. Edge.

I mean, I think you are misunderstood. That's that you take a serious approach to your job, be a very high standards for yourself. You want to meet them. If you don't, it bothers you. You want to be surrounded, as you said, by other people who have high standards. And and we're fortunate in our football broadcast as you are. You know, the Krendla Krema in the NBA world. But but yeah, it could be misinterpreted as being like, you know, one lane or intense or edgy or even sometimes but

there's there's no time for politeness all the time. Even Hollywood agree with that. No, she's taught me a lot. She's taught me a lot. So Number one, she taught me the effort. I never ever see the effort in my life. Never. I would cringe every time I heard it. And then I got to be good friends with Doris, and I distinctly remember we went out to visit her and her family. We get home to Utah and my son starts saying the F word left and right, and I'm like, you can't. We do not say that word

in our home, young man. And he's like, well, Mrs Burke says it. So um, she has taught me there's a good time in an appropriate moment and dropped that net bomb, and uh, she's also taught me to not let people walk over you, like sometimes you have to stick up for yourself. And I think that that's a good skill that she saw me. We can say podcast tours, but I thank you for not drowing. Probably just reacted right there. You're disreacted with horror. We're not regulated by

the FCC. It is my worst quality. I am profane. I am not proud of it. I've tried many times and these strategies to stop cursing. It is just part of my lexicon. And I will say this sometimes Chris, like, don't you agree there's no other word? What the F word? That is appropriate to the moment? So yes, and it's appropriate to so many moments. But uh, but thank you for not making it an F bomb fest here because people might get a little horrified. I want to shift gears.

How you you have inspired so many people in so many ways, but one confronting cancer, which was melanoma. You did that in a rather quiet way. And then when cancer came back and tumors were discovered in your lung and you band through that. I mean I know that that you were shower with love and appreciated what you do for living in a different way because of the way that your work could touch people and the energy they get back to you. How has that forever sort

of changed your perspective? Coming through that, the horrors and the fears of of a grave cancer diagnosis, you know it changes you forever. I feel like, um, you know, I was stage four metastatic cancer which is a deadly diagnosis. And I've been very lucky that immunotherapy has saved my life. Um, but it's changed me forever because I live better, I'm more joyful, I am a bucket list and I think Doris can tell you, I'm I can do some crazy stuff.

I'll be like, we're that's it, We're skinny dipping and capri. We're going for it. We're gonna live life large. Um. I think my given F. I don't want to say it, but given you know given F filter is off from cancer because you just learned that of your life. Um. But I do want to take this second because I don't know if I've ever told her this, and I will cry if I say it. But Uh, when my cancer returned and it had spread and it was looking pretty scary, Doris had said to me, have you contacted

the V Foundation. We have resources at the ESPN. You need to contact the V Foundation. And she called Carol Stiff, who is a woman that worked at our company for a long time. And Carol got me on the phone that day with the executive director Susan Braun of the V Foundation, and they got me into the top melanoma doctor in the world works that U c l A. Dr Antoni Ribas and he has saved my life with

a clinical trial in immunotherapy. And so I don't want to overstate this, but Doris, I never would have thought to call the v Foundation. I never would have thought to reach out and have someone help me like that. So you know, my friend has been there through it. We've laughed our asses off, we have laughed and laughed, Our kids love each other, We've had a great relationship. But she has helped saved my life. Now do you how do you say thanks to a friend for that?

Because I would have never called. I would have never gotten that help with our Chris, like you just talked about how beloved Hollie is. I don't think what people realize is you know how tough she is. You look at Holly how to Hollie five three five three, Um, that's one tough package of five three inches tall and what she did for the love of her sports in the midst of it. I mean, she's on chemotherapy and she's told a couple of stories about being in a

hotel room. And I'll be honest with you, Chris, I don't know how a woman with Holly's travel schedule could maintain the standards she did while she's literally fighting to save her life. You know, you see those video footages of Stuart Scott who we all miss and him in kickboxing or m m A training in the midst of it, and you're just marvel at people's toughness and grip and

desire to survive. Just say, hollyrow is one of the toughest people I know, one of the kind is, certainly, but one of the toughest people I know to it. Pulled through that, and I mean stage four is stage four, Stage four, Chris, you have to be covering sports. I believe it was the day before one surgery, Hilley, and then you're covering the w n b A in and around treatment. How how did you do that? You know?

I think you and I were talking about this at dinner the other night, about what keeps you going in life, and I look back on it now and I feel like I was a complete psycho. But I felt like getting two games kept me living. And I don't know how to explain that any other way. That if I wit and I sat on my couch and felt sorry for myself, I thought I was going to die, and I just had to keep going and improve to myself that I could get to that event and I could

get it done because that's where my joy was. Like being at the game was where my joy is. And um gosh, I look back on it now, I really don't know how I did it. You know, there were times I could barely walk because my chemotherapy was impacting my feet and my joints, and you know, I would I would stagger off the sideline thinking I can't walk. Tonight I can't walk. But I don't know. I don't want to sound like I did something great. There's people going through a lot worse than I did, But I

do hope that it gives people inspiration. It's like, you just have to keep going. And I don't know how to say it any clearer than that is, whatever your piece of joy and whatever you find joy doing, you have to keep finding it or or it gets really hard in those moments. But every single person that expresses that and lives that the way that you did does give other people strength, And so thank you for that gift.

We're wrapping up. We're not wrapping up. We're kind of in the middle of our college football season, but we're headed towards the home stretch doors. You were just launching into the NBA season, which isn't what eight months sort of marathon. There's really no other seasons where it's quite

like it. Are Are you ready for the I don't want to call it grind because that makes it feel like it's not fun, But you know there are times when it's I'm sure it's a test of stamina and midst all the other joys that you get for a long season that's going to wrap up with you covering the finals. Yeah, I don't know, It's been several years since I've been this excited, and I think it goes to several things. It certainly goes to you know, we're

as close to normal as we can be. We're finally you know, courtside, we're finally requesting players to sit down with this pregame, and you know that's so critical to what we do, the opportunity to speak face to face and get the perspective the players and then be able to share that. And and I do think, you know, from a talent perspective, the league is an incredible hand um. You know, Lebron's pursuit of Kareem Abdul Jabbar's all time scoring mark, which many people thought, you know, it's not

possible to attain. How does Golden State whether the indelible image of um you know, him punching Jordan Pool in the face. You know, they're the defending champion, they have this incredible window. But that changes a team, and what does that look like. I'm on a flight Wednesday night to Golden State. My game's Friday, but I need to be at practice and in the facility on Thursday to feel, to feel what's happening there. And so, hey, I I can't wait, Chris. I'm I'm you know, can't wait. And

it doesn't feel ill. I will look up and it will be February and the playoffs will be, you know, six weeks away, and the enthusiasm will go off the charts again. And so I can't wait. I absolutely cannot wait. And how you work the jazz game, so there's no break for you. We we we shut it down. College football used to die right into about three or four more are sports. I mean, it's really kind of it feels like it's around the calendar for you almost Yeah,

I'm lucky. I have my first men's college basketball game. We've got the Champs Classic with National Champs Kansas coming up in two weeks I think two and a half weeks, and then women's basketball. My one of my first big women's games is Yukon Notre Dame, which is going to like this year, that's going to be a really big game, and then NBA. So, I mean, I'm addicted to sports. I just feel like, instead of apologizing for it anymore,

I'm just going to embrace it. Yes I'm crazy and I'm a psycho, but i just really love what i'm doing. What would Field saying, find do what you love, and you'll never work a day in your life. It's just not work. To me, it's fun. It's still crazy, Chris. I've heard you say you never work a day in your life. I get that in that we love our jobs, but I don't say that it's not work. It's hard ass work sometimes to get into the plane. And I mean, you know you're you're studying a subject you love, but

you're still working. I'm I'm gonna try to adopt more that attitude, Holly, But I get what you're saying. I don't know how she keeps up with it. Chris, Like, I remember giving up the w n b A and women's college basketball and being like, oh my god, this is awful. I'm not a part of it. One of my funnest periods of all time was Holly Dave O'Brien and I calling the women's national championship for like ten years, and it was one of the most special times in

my life. But then I now have a little bit of work, like balance, and I can cover just the thirty teams the NBA, And meanwhile she's making me feel like a slouger. She makes us all feel that way at all. I want to talk about a word that as you get to a certain age, you begin to think about it a little bit. You don't obsess with it,

But that's that's legacy. And you, guys, by being so excellent for so long, by breaking through barriers, by setting examples, by expanding people's idea, specifically women's idea of what is possible, we'll leave a legacy. So I'd like to allow yourselves to think about that for a little bit. Whether it's this generation Doris, you mentioned people who are coming up in the business maybe they were in college, maybe they're just starting out, maybe they are younger than that. Maybe

they're the daughters of those women. And it's not just women, it's guys too. The inspiration and the legacy for a number of generations to follow. Just because you're doing what you love and doing it so well for so long, can you can you just reflect on that for a second, Holly, and allow yourself. I think Doris will be better than me at this because I think she is very aware

of her responsibility as the first. We've had a lot of conversations of you know, she's the first to be calling NBA games on ESPN as an analyst, and I think there there is a bearing of responsibility and a weight that comes with that. I hope that my legacy. I don't think about it often, but I do hope my legacy will be um that you can do it. I am just like the world's most normal you know, maybe nothing special about me, normal girl from Bountiful, Utah.

Not the prettiest, not the smartest, not that not that anything ust, but worked hard, loved her job and did it at a really high level. Is that you can do it? I hope that's my legacy to a lot of people. If you love it, you can do it, put the work in, and and maybe also teaching young people how to work. I think that young the younger generation, and I don't want to use the world entitled, but we're still grinding. I mean, if you still I think people, Chris,

if they saw your work. You said something to me the other day. I found fascinating fifty hours of work that you put in a week for a four our football game. Young people need to know how to work, and that's a legacy. And teaching people. You know, you had some young men on our bus that you're trying to teach them how to do play by playing what your job is. I think that's a legacy that we all owe to the next generation, is mentoring and helping.

But Doras you speak to it better because like you've there bore in a great responsibility with your your platform. Now I want to just want to follow up on something he said. For you, it's been about the work. But I think the other thing that you've done is you've had this incredible grit, which maybe you know, according to people in research, the most important determinant of long

term success. Because I don't know how many years it took you to get to the number one spot on college football, but probably longer than maybe it should have for a variety of different reasons that women face in this business. Um, But the fact is, you never stopped working through every disappointment, you know, through every time you were not given that number one position on the college football despite your love and passion and knowledge and all

those things. So I would just say, I think grit is part of your legacy, and it speaks to success in the business. I don't give it some much thought, to be honest with you, Chris, I just love basketball. It has shaped my life since I was seven years old, and I think about sometimes is because I do know there were many people who paved the way before I came. Robin Roberts, you know, Jackie McMullen sitting on the sideline and next to red hour back and hearing some things

over there. So I'm not the first, and I certainly haven't experienced some of the ugliness that women before me did. The only thing I would say is, you know, because I am an analyst in those spots, I just I would like to think and hopefully the path of the person who does it after me maybe is a little bit easier because I've done it well enough. You know what I'm saying that I didn't make the path of

somebody behind me harder because that would break my heart. Yeah, I think that, you know, legacy, you get wrapped up an ego if you think about it. So I appreciate that neither of you'd really spend much time on that. We're talking about the present and what it took to get here. I was simply talking about what it might mean in the future to some young girl to say, Holly Road, Doris Burke. You know, I remember them when I was a little girl. They made it seem like

things are possible. All things are possible if I do work hard, if I do bring authentic passion to some things. So that's what I think is undeniable. You guys are not gonna probably acknowledge that. Holly, you are way too modest in your assessment. Your message is powerful, but you're way too modest. But I think there's going to be uh, I know there's going to be women and young young guys too who will look at your example and say, hey, you know what that was so important to me? In

an early stage. So I had a cool thing happened Saturday at our game, Chris. I was at Florida State and this young man who is delivering the footballs into the game on the sideline for Clemson and Florida State um asked if he could meet me, and he said, I've been watching you my whole life. And I said how old are you? And he said, I'm twenty two And I thought, you know, this is my twenty seventh year doing college football. He literally has watched me on

college football his entire life. And I love that that needs something to him and he wants to meet me. That that made me feel really good. I think that that's something that all three of us should be proud of, is we have been the voice of the sports that all that this generation has heard their whole life. You know, we've all been in it now twenty five plus years, all three of us. And so you think of the legacy of where the voice they hear on college football.

You're the voice they hear on tennis, Chris Doris, You're in the NBA game. Most of these kids grew up hearing you in the NBA two K game. That's a that's a compliment and an honor that their whole lives, we get to be the narrators to their sports experience and that's a great obligation but also great honor. You know, Chris, you mentioned as the spaces we're in they don't like because we've been there so long, we've worn their ass out, so to speak, Chris, like, they just accept that we're

part of their sports experience. And I will say, for both genders, that's really really cool. Well you guys, I say, I said, I've used the word overused probably the word inspires for so many, so many different ways. But this friendship, this conversation you've had, the stories, the laughs that tears.

Thank you so much for sharing that as well, because I think it's inspiring to see people who who love each other and carry for each other so much and share so much in common and even though they're you're different people. So thank you for that gift today, guys. And it's been a it's been a pleasure and honor and and uh, I can't thank you enough. Thanks Chris, thanks for having us, Thanks for having us, Holly and Doris, your ef and welcome. That was so much fun for me.

I'm just grateful we could align their very busy schedules. And isn't it important to have supportive, enduring friendships where you can just talk about personal and professional challenges and just laugh like Holly and Dorris do. Thanks as always to Jennifer Dempster, my co executive producer, and the team at Octagon who editor episodes. I'll talk to you soon with another season five episode of Fowler. Who You Got