Mickey Drexler on Persistence, Leadership and Personal Touches

My guest for this episode is the man who many credit with putting the clothing brand Gap on the map. He went on to found Old Navy, run J Crew, and even designed the first Apple store for Steve Jobs. His success in turning around clothing companies earned him the nickname the Merchant Prince. Without further delay, let's get into my conversation with my good friend Mickey Drexler. You're looking good man, Thank you. I'm wearing Alex Mills. Can you

see this? For our first course, I wanted to learn about Mickey's upbringing in the Bronx and how the flavors of his childhood home helps shape his taste in clothing. Years later, I know you love food and I knew you as the boss of Gap first, but then I realized you're a foodie. Um, so where did that come from?

Like when you were in your house? Well, I know your mom passed it, um tragically when you're sixteen, But like, what was the smells, I mean any out of your house that it came from somewhere, just like your love of clothes came from somewhere. What do you remember about like sort of the visceral smells of the food cooking in your house and who was cooking. Basically that's a

funny question. No, no one ever asked me that. But you know what I remember most, and I'm not even sure I have the right name sweet and sour meatballs. And they smelled my grandmother made them, and that's what I remember most. But you know, when you say of foodie, I did. When I was a kid. My my aunts cooked for me, mostly after my mother passed and then my mom before everything came out of the freezer. Everything would come out of the freezer. So I I really wasn't.

I think as I got older, I just like quality. I always wanted quality in my life, so liking good food is part of liking clothes or cars or people. Uh, it's a standard I have. When I started to change gap, it was always a matter of good taste should not cost anything extra. Now maybe in food it does because the cut of the steak is maybe important. But it's just the way I changed, I evolved in my life.

Who doesn't love I don't know anyone doesn't love good food really, And it's harder and harder sometimes to find good food. Um, but it was not my family cooking for me, guarantee. But you remember sweet and sour? Yeah, I guess the soup smelled nice. It was a homie smell. It was you know, the the emotion that emanated from a good smell was more important than the food itself.

And that was always important to me, So as anyone in that time that you remember, say after your mom passed, that that critical time in your life that really sort of put their arm around you and sort of guided you, your dad or someone who was there to sort of like help you succeed, help you become an adult. Well, my dad frankly didn't pay much attention to me, never

did he Uh was self centered. Uh, he wasn't a kind easy affectionate person, and my mother was ill for many years before she passed on, so I never had a father who really did that. I was always kind of self driven. My aunts, my three aunts who took care of me, were wonderful and I love them. But the irony in a family like mine, with eight cousins growing up in the Bronx, I was the only one who went to college, which was very surprising to this day. But I I was driven partly because my dad, I

was the opposite. I didn't want to be him. And when I didn't want to be him, that means I had to be successful. I had to have a much better job, and a lot of that drove me because I'd work with him, and he worked in a coat manufacturing company, and I used to work in the shipping room, and I took the payroll one day to the bank, and of course I went through the entire payroll for the whole company, and I saw that he was among

one of the lowest paid people in the company. And it devastated me because he would always try to be big shots. Maybe the wrong word, but it might be the right word. And I'll never forget that day in my life, and it was all very motivating to get out of here and do something else and not be with him per se. So no one really guided me. I guess I was an ambitious kid, you know, it's hard to explain certain things, and I wanted to be successful, and that I think was partially him not being and

not being the kindest, nicest person in the world. I guess you're not supposed to say things like this on podcasts, but you know that was my father, and you know that was the hand I was dealt. Thank God for my aunts who who mothered me incredibly well for the rest of my teenage years, etcetera. Well, you certainly went, I believe, from the Bronx to Buffalo to Boston to blew me the four Bees. So so so your dad

was in He was in the rag business also. He he was in the co business and the button business. So it wasn't I mean the apple was there, maybe, you know, not the exact apple, right, I think that's true. He bought buttons and piece goods. And I worked in the garment business as a kid on on Saturdays, holidays and all that, and I took it seriously. I find a lot of people, you know, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I ask all the young people and older people who I meet an interview, what did

their parents do? And you do see a trend in the creative sense, which I include your world, then, is that someone would play music, they danced, they cooked, they did art, and more likely than not, the apple does not fall far from the tree, which is I don't know if that's true in in the food world, but definitely I find it true in other world. Well, my smell, Mickey was rice peel off, because I was raised by three ounce as well, and all they did was cook.

At breakfast, they talked about lunch. At lunch, they talked about dinner, and at dinner they talked about the next day. That smell I can I remember to this day. If I close my eyes, I know what the house smells like, the rug smells like. And I asked that question because I think, like you said, it's more important than the apple. It's really it is what you know. You can't help not feel that and suck it in. It just comes

back somehow. Right in our second course, I had to hear how Mickey transformed his drive for success into a thriving retail career. It turns out Mickey discovered his knack for fashion almost by accident when he took a job as a buyer from Bloomingdale's after getting passed over elsewhere. And you know, you start looking at your life and you look back and you say, all these moments change you dramatically. I was very, very lucky, and I do believe that all of us are given a certain skill

that we have to live our lives. For me, I went to Bloomingdale's interestingly enough, because when I worked at A and S, they offered my good friend five dollars more in salary. And I was furious because I worked at A and S for summer job and they knew me, So I was really upset. I went to work at Bloomingdale's. I was very lucky. I worked and worked for this woman, Katie Murphy. She was a fashion director. Katie Uh and I hung out for two years. We go to Europe together,

we go to the markets. She would have probably been the CEO if she weren't a woman in those days. She had a great eye, a great instinct, and I loved her dearly. Um and so uh it a lot of it came naturally. My first my second day at Bloomingdale's, they assigned me to be a buyer and I loved what I did, and it was I was very successful. I went to the market every day and I picked goods out. I had a budget. My boss, Stanley's during a wonderful guy. But it wasn't like bosses then paid

attention to what you did per se. But he was a great guy. I I just it just took off in terms of my career. But after two years or three years, I got bored. I didn't like everyone getting promoted around me. But that's corporations, and you know, corporations aren't the most creative places in the world ever. And so I made a move to a year and a half at Macy's. Didn't like it there, but I had

to make a living. I had a wife to support, I had a rent to pay, and so Macy's a year and a half, I left a and s four years, I quit, and I'm saying, I don't like this anymore. I spent six or seven years and not liking what I did. And then I met the own is of and Taylor, and I kept saying, no, I didn't want to do that. I was a little nervous about giving up my safe job. Which forget about being nervous about that. I went to become the CEO of Ann Taylor for

four years. And how old were you? I was thirty five and just incredible. Yeah, that was the beginning of of my career. And what was nice about it was great about it. I just did it. And then we had about twenty five stores losing a lot of money. We turned it around dramatically, being a very hip store, and so I switched the company to and Taylor Studio just when I got there, and then we were taken

over by an awful, big, bureaucratic company. I stayed for four years, learned how to do my job, and then I moved to California to run Gap. Did that for eighteen years. You know, the rest is history. So a lot of people like Gap boys just the ads and Gap I remember the advertising almost more than I remember the clothes. But what was the premise that made you think that you could have a remarkable effect on how people dressed with this company rather than doing your own

thing at that time? Well, it's it's a good question. I'm basically a conservative person, and in nineteen eighty three own things were not like today, you go out, you raised five million, you raised three million. I didn't think of that. Plus it wasn't what people did as often. You know, I grew up without any money and I was would be nervous not to have a salary, which is what I had. And now here I am, fifty years later, doing my own thing. But by the way,

own thing is an interesting comment. If you don't know in fifty one percent, it ain't your own thing. People ought to know that. So at Gap I owned five or six percent and I left. I went to J Crew. I was the biggest shareholder with my own money, but still not the same because private equity owned ent with their money, which is everyone's money I owned. I bought ten percent of the company with my own money. So the funny thing is again I controlled ten percent, but

they control. So your own thing. People ought to remember is only your own thing when you control the financial percent of the company. But I learned at a late age. Now I have a company that my son and I own with some sack who is our designer. I'll listen to anyone who's smart and gives us feedback, but I don't have to listen to someone who has a short term view of making a profit, especially in the restaurant business.

I think is this same back and forth and up and down, you hit a wall, you come back, and so at this later stage of my life, uh, this is kind of what I've wanted for many years. To your question of doing your own thing. Yeah, and I I mean I do my own thing. And it's people say, oh, you're an owner, you're this, you have all this. I'm like, you have no idea. It's just like you know, at the end of the day on Monday, if there's a

cash call, guess what they call. They call you, and of course you know they don't call the owner, and you're like, it's the almost beauty. I always tell people stay on salary and so you're absolutely certain that you have another vein of cash to live off for a certain amount of time, because it ain't as easy as you think. And the press makes it seem very easy because they wanted to be good. They wanted to succeed

because they need something to write about. And when I learned that these critics and critiquing goes, they need something to write about it, otherwise they be out of a job. It was sort of like a lightning bolt came down and then it was like I felt free, So right, you must be. I feel much freer that you don't need approval of anybody. You just need to do great stuff and if it doesn't work, you do some other stuff until it works. I don't have any need for

any investors. And uh, it's what I worked my life for is probably to do this. I didn't think this was my grand plan. My son's story at the company six or seven years ago, and he's a terrific person and works his butt off, but he needed a CEO. And then I said, geez, I'm gonna work now, I'm going to have a job again. So because I have to be busy, I have to work, I have to do and all that. So I love doing and I love the fashion business. So being in Alex Mills, which

is your son, it's a great story. I wear all of his clothes um and and I'm not saying that because I have to say it. A lot of American designers. I love to wear, but I love to mix and match. But I think Alex Mills does great is give you the ability to do that, And so is how do you at that level and your your son is dealing with both hip and trend. How do you discover hip and trend? And how do you marry that? It's a really good question, and uh, how do I answer that?

You know, going there, it's if it's too trendy, it's gone gone. What you really want a day in, day out classics ish with a twist. My wardrobe is always things that around forever and ever and ever. And I think most men dressed pretty much the same way since they were ten years old, you know, kind of classic ish, the same thing. But we are always evaluating the life of a garment. You know, it's an art. It's an art,

not a science on what has life to it. But for example, this is our number one T shirt in the company. It's just a blue T shirt, comes in six or eight colors. In fact, we had an issue today the prices of shipping goods. I don't know if your world's affected by my pants and pots, it's insane, it's a killer. So we went from forty five to forty eight dollars on this and now the accountants here, I want to raise it to fifty five dollars, And I said, you raise this to fifty five dollars and

everyone's gonna notice. They're not going to notice other things like this jacket here, they'll notice. So I said, I don't want to change it. I don't want to raise the price. He said, well the margins low. I said, let it be low on the number one T shirt because that's a signal. It's a signal to customers that the prices were raised because they're gonna remember this. They're not going to remember a few bucks. It's just a call we make. It's very exciting when you ring the

register up every day for something customers want. So you know, that's why a micromanage. You've got a micromanage. You've got to make sure things are right and take risks by the way, always taking a risk, and if you lose, you lose. Now, the stupid things we did this year, we're buying too much fleece when we should have figured out with COVID coming to an end, fleece will not be what it was. And everyone was in the fleece business and we're not a fleece seller, so we ended

up owning too much of that. That was a big mistake we made. But on the classics. We're good at it. Well, we have to be good at it. That's what That's what I've done my whole career, is you know, trying to sell things that don't have an expiration date. For our third course, I knew Mickey would have unique reflection on what makes a good leader. He was famous at JA Crew for not having his own office, instead using a loudspeaker to congratulate colleagues or just share thoughts about

the weather. Even at the pinnacle of his career, giving that personal touch mattered, And I wanted to know why. You know, there's all kinds of schools on leadership. If you if you click the internet now, there's maybe two thousand courses on leadership and hip and trending and direction. It's very hard to pass out sort of how you run a business and how you lead people. I know you have a specific way that's pretty unique, that's been very good to you even to today. So what would

you say is the best way? How do you act like an owner without acting like an owner? Well, it's a really good question, and I can tell your leadership is it's very hard to put it into words. It's hard to explain, but it's having a point of view. It's having a vision, it's sticking with it. It's being able to say to someone you're not doing a good job, or you've got to change this. It's telling them what you think. And it's also having an ability to teach

by example. So for me, I could do I could do the jobs here of any buyer, so to speak. I've been practicing my craft for many years, and part of my craft is people and an energy, and and you feel it. I think, I guess you're born with it to a degree. You have to feel the energy and the leadership and the excitement and the passion. And there by the way, there are people who don't necessarily

do that are great leaders. But I was with Steve Jobs for sixteen years and felt You've felt him feeling it, You've felt him and Steve's you know, people always could criticize Steve, the smartest, most exciting person I've ever worked with in my life. But there's something there that you can't really teach and learn. In my opinion, he of course is an easy one to choose as the best

because he was by far the best. But I think you're turning people on, You're getting him excited, you're leading him forward, you're taking the right risks, and they respect that and treating people well. Needless to say that goes first always, like like coming to the major D. But I also think what I heard from you is the habit of communicating all the time, because I find most people in my world don't communicate well because they're too addicted to the one forty word tweet or small texts

are simple that that's not communication. That is telling the people your location. It's not communicating. You've got to sit down in front of someone and like, let me this is what I feel, and they have to even if it's inaccurate communication. You need to show some of that. I can. I can fail too, but you're gonna fail with me and we're both gonna learn absolutely and um.

And people also feel b s all the time or they feel that it's so you've got to be a bullshit detector always, and most people are that, except I will say growing up and I tell the young people this, I said, forget what the title is, look at the human being, look at the person, and whatever you're thinking about them is true. Because you know, when I started working, i'd see fancy titles, big shots here and big shots there, and you say, gee, I don't get it. I'm not

sure why they have this job. Well, you know something, if you think it, you're usually right. And I always say even in business, every day, even picking merchandise, you're usually right. You know who the winners are you feeling. I did a short stint working for you, and but what I knew about you from some of the executives and the team was that you would answer your phone calls all the time yourself, which is almost unheard of. Um,

and I wondered, like where that came from? It did it come from sort of like an early sense of connection that you felt was so important that it never left you because you do it to this day. I mean, you're very hands on to the point where it's almost like you would call people back when people used to leave messages back then, you would call them back where

they come from. It's it's an interesting question. I'll tell you where I think it came from, because you know, we kind of developed into being who we are from who we were. And I grew up, you know, kid in the Bronx, you know, not important. But the point was when I started to work and people didn't say hello at work or where I was ignored or things

like that. I I found that I left a message today at seven o'clock this morning, quite important text, and I haven't heard back yet from the CEO of this company. And uh, it tells me so much when I don't hear back from people. And I don't want to be the person who is too important, who ignores someone or who doesn't get back to them. It's very respectful. I don't want to be the person who doesn't say hello

to people. I am who I am and if I know how I feel when people don't return my calls or they wait a day or two, and to me, it's just being a mention. It's doing the right thing. I love that and I so agree with you, and I think that it's really important. And this is what Eli's Abart does. So he told me said, you know, if you don't if you don't know your customer, in one split second, they're gone and if you think they're coming back, you're wrong. And you need to treat them

like they feel like you're part of the family. And family messes up. Family screws up, and you can screw up. You can screw up many times like I have. And he said, I screw up all the time. But I'm part of a family and those are my customers, and they'll come back and they give me another break and another break in another break, And I thought that was It was austere, yet so like it. The perspective is rare.

And I don't know whether it's a sense of patience or a sense of honesty, but I loved his honesty. You're right about customers and if you respond quick well, you can respond the same way to a customer as you do to a CEO or anyone else. That's the way it should be, and especially with customers, because they're shocked when you answer your phone or you chat with them the second they call, and they tell fifty friends said, wow, the this big company cares is what it is. And

I'm allergic to rude people. I'm allergic to stores that aren't nice, but restaurants, you know, with attitude, I just will never go back. And uh, well, you know that you always had friendly restaurants. It is at some point in time the business that you're in, which is I always say clothes and rags and whatever do you want to call it. And my business is the same business where wooing customers, we're telling what to wear and what to eat, and we want them to listen or at

least try us. So you can't be rate them, right, That's the first step is not to be rate them. The first step is to sort of like welcome them and like what do you think? Right? Isn't that what you want to hear? It's almost I mean, my ex wife was a therapist and your wife's a therapist, and she would always tell me said, stop and listen and ask someone what they think. If you do that first, all that ship that they have in their brain goes

away momentarily. Right. For sure. It's just just I mean, always be nice and it just always be nice if you feel it. It does work. Fake nice doesn't work. I didn't mention that the best people to speak to the staff in the stores or online. I go into the stores. I spent my whole career I never speak to I listened to what they say in headquarters. But you go into a store where you speak to people, you'll learn more than anything. Listen, tell them what they

listen to what they say. And that's true of customers anywhere, you know, there's restaurants I go to. I was in a restaurant the other day and the guy walks by. He says, how is everything. Well, the bread on my avocado and toast was so hard a crust I needed a sort of to cut it. He says, how is everything? I said, well, to tell you the truth? Um, and he walked away. Because it's called touching at table. They don't want to really hear the truth. He didn't want

to hear anything. And now when I go in, I for avocado toasted toast, but no crust, please. He didn't. He just walked away. It was the funniest thing I've ever seen. And that's because he's been trained not to listen, which is a big deal. I mean, just you you. I think you got something right there. You hit it on the head. You listen. You want to hear bad things. Tell me the negative. Of course, don't tell me everything is fabulous because it's bullshit, right, Just tell me, tell

me what's wrong. And if you tell someone what's wrong, you correct the problem. That's a customer for life. It's it's a simple equation. And what economic stratus you are if you're fifteen or fifty or seventy five. If someone has a problem, you listen to them and you solve the problem, or you apologize. You know, an apology goes a long way if it's sincere. I think that those habits you said are just it's so true to who you've always been. And just listen. You treat people well

and you don't ignore the criticism. If I get a letter, if someone sits and writes me a letter, the amount of effort it takes to write a letter is astounding. First of all, you have to you have to not get over your anger. You have to get home maybe you're buzzed. You have to think about it the next day, and you have to get up in penel letter, I mean, you better listen to that customer, and I tell everybody

you respond within twenty four hours. You invite them in, fall all over yourself and say we made a terrible mistake, We're so sorry. Coming as my guests bring two extra people. It's on us. Not one time in my forty year career has that person not become either a friend or the best customer ever. And when I tell that story, they're like, you're kidding me. Aren't you scared? I'm like, what am I scared of? These people? Are? They're telling

you what's wrong? Right, it's a favor. Well, it's a gift to consultant to come in and write a see the two they deal with every return right here, we're we're not a we have one store. We have you know, mostly online or opening another store. But they tell all I have to do is what are the returns about today? What are people returning? You know, if you find out a pants not fitting in this set and the other thing, you gotta fix it. It's a hard business, your business

and and my business. Yours is probably more difficult because you gotta be on on every dish, you know. Yeah, but the problem with my business is it's stuff. The stuff goes bad and in two hours it's gonna be friend. We were like, we're manufacturers. Their carrot looks like this when it comes in at five in the morning, and it's like this, it's six and the next day there's no more carrots. You're gonna do it again. Imagine if you have to make the clothes every day and they

you sold out. You gotta make up every day unbelieved. It's tough. It's incredible. For our fourth and final course, I got to hear what advice Mickey would pass on to the next generation of leaders, and as we kept learning, his world of fashion is not so different from my world of food. What keeps you at the top of the heap? What are some of the things that you know? Work? You know? Time sites terrific? Uh? You know, I joined a company at Bloomingdale's. I was really lucky. I had

Katie as my boss. I would say, if you can pick your boss, not the corporation per se. You know when I was when I was young, you kind of didn't switch jobs. I did, but most people didn't try to choose a great boss. Who are you going to report to? You can't really do that at such a huge difference. Uh. And whether they're not great or great, you're gonna learn as much from weak or bad bosses as you will from a good boss. And you're gonna follow your instinct. And I was a shy kid. I

never had a chance to do what I did. But when I got my first job at Bloomingdale's, it was like I was a changed human being because I had a responsibility and I was hugely driven to do well, and so you're gonna make yourself successful unless you get into one of these companies where I don't know if it's hedge funds, where a lot of people have the right jobs and they get very rich, so to speak,

not necessarily successful, but rich. But I think the thing is try to get into a high quality company that's driven with good management, and if you don't, you make a mistake. Big deal today, and take every interview you can. Always. I used to do that, even when I liked my job at Blooms. Every into they call me I want to learn from someone else. I always walked away most of the time saying, where where are the people that impress me? And they weren't a lot um. Do your job,

take the risks if you can. You've got to suck up a little, I guess, But don't be a wise guy. Don't be a know it all. I remember when I was twenty three and twenty two and with the I'm going to be vice president is joined from whoever said it. Be humble, be likable, don't play the competitive card at all. For me, you never want to me because sending an alienate people in a sense. So I was and by

the way, I had no reason to play it. In hindsight, I did really well in my career, but I never was that guy out there or the woman out there playing the competitive card because I think most people are a bit insecure. Good leaders no matter what they tell you, they're insecure or worried about the next year, the next day. None of us don't worry. I've never seen anyone not worry.

So worry about your job every day like it means everything. Uh. And if you get to a point of being bored or I quit Blooming Deals because I didn't respect who was being promoted. I didn't have great respect for the leadership. I left Ditto from Macy's. I left Ditto for A and S. And I guess I was destined maybe not to work for someone, although I always did and have a skill set. You know, I have to say, if you're a great salesman, you might just be a great salesman,

which is okay. I happened to be fortunate that I had an intuition about apparel, I an instinct, a feel, and I also had a vision that GAP would become the affordable version of nice clothes because I always said good clothes don't have to cost anything extra. And that was me. But I always like nice I like nice things. But you have to be hugely focused. Also, focus, focus, focus. If you're running a piece of a business, just try to eliminate all the wasted stuff you have on your desk.

You know the books, I don't. I don't read the books because I just don't read the books. I read the people. I listen, and I've learned most from people who are good or not good. So I mean it's again L TIB comes down to what you're saying is sort of this such a focus on communicating with people every day, and they will communicate back by so that they inform you what works and what doesn't work without telling you. They just they buy things because they like

the way you think about them. That's what I found. I never cooked for a person. I would cook for myself what I like to eat, what I found delicious and yummy, and I would like explain it and just present it and then people will. You know, people like to be told what to do. I don't know if that's a fashion the USA. Tell me what to drink, tell me what cocktails you're drinking, and I'll be happy with that, and I find that it was almost very easy to satisfy people if you have this sense of vision.

But it has to be really kind of homespun and if you just stick to it, you're gonna catch a lot of people. And I know you as a person in this incredible retail business, but I also know you as a person who loves the the pace of restaurants, right, that's certain. Shouldn't say choa that that like ZEITGEI used of walking into a restaurant that's busy and buzzing and happy. You want to be a part of this. You feel it the second you go in. Second you go in,

you do you feel it? And of course the front desk has got to be nice and gracious or else you feel that too. I felt that when I used to go into the old Barneys downtown. I felt it was the same thing. And that's why I love fashion so much, because I think it's so mirrors our world of food, my wilder food, because we just recreate food from twenty years ago every twenty years or five years ago. And I feel fashion there's a lot of parallels, don't

you think fashion? Absolutely? Yeah, It's like French pastros now are all the rage your night in French peast has been around since god knows when, and now it's like on fire, which I find like kind of wonderful because it's a twenty year old discovering that never saw it. So why isn't that great? Right? Yeah? So, speaking of food, how do you stay how do you stay fit? What do you eat? Which I know you love Italian coffee shops, but what do you what do you do to stay fit?

I go to Soul Psycho every morning at seven am. That's amazing. Uh, That's what I do every morning. I do that, come rain or shine. Uh. And I'm also the godfather of soul, so that helps. That's my that's my official title. And I do that every day. And I watch what I eat now like crazy. And I had this thing. It's interesting. About two weeks ago, I'm sitting next to a woman at dinner who knew a lot about cancer and everything else. She sees me put the splendor in and she says, don't you dare have

artificial sweetness? I never met this woman, and then she starts giving me some bad news on artificial sweeteners. I stopped drinking diet coke. That next day. I grew up on cream, soda, root beer, and cola with a Stevia. That's what I drink. That's my food. And I just try to eat light, try to not eat lunch if I can, and I don't try to eat a lot of food. I have a weakness on ice cream. I love ice scream, but I work out and I watched my waight and well, you're entitled to like. I mean,

it's good to have a little ice scream. I think I could have. I could eat it all day long. Mickey, thank you so much. I'll see you real soon. I appreciate your time. This was fun. I appreciate it. By bye, thank you, I appreciate it. Thanks very much for listening to Four Courses with Jeffrey Zacarrion, a production of I Heart Radio and Corner Table Entertainment. Four Courses is created by Jeffrey Zacarrion, Margaret Secarrion, Jared Keller, and Tara Helper.

Our executive producer is Christopher Hesiotis. Four Courses is produced by Jonathan Haws Dressler. Our research is conducted by Jesselyn Shields. Our talent booking is by Pamela Bauer at Dogtown talent. This episode was edited and written by Priya Madavan and mixed by Joe Tistle. Special thanks to Katie Fellman for help as recording engineer. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. H